View Full Version : adhd, ptsd relationship


daveddd
03-25-14, 07:39 PM
i think i have this common combo, it seems to have a pretty specific presentation


whats interesting is the rates of disorders in the subjects vs controls


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23561240

Corina86
03-26-14, 09:28 AM
Interesting article

daveddd
03-26-14, 09:34 AM
Interesting article

yea, i just thought it was telling that the family rates dropped to zero percent in controls

so is adhd a type of predisposition to ptsd?

Nicksgonefishin
03-26-14, 11:13 AM
yea, i just thought it was telling that the family rates dropped to zero percent in controls

so is adhd a type of predisposition to ptsd?

I got kinda lost in the article a bit... Is it the co-morbid predisposing the ptsd?

Kind of a ADHD->co-morbid->PTSD or ADHD->PTSD->co-morbid.

I guess the order or the how or why doesn't really matter but it is interesting that they present together more frequently.

Corina86
03-26-14, 11:22 AM
yea, i just thought it was telling that the family rates dropped to zero percent in controls

so is adhd a type of predisposition to ptsd?

Probably. There could be several reasons:

1. the part of the brain that handles executive functions, which is quite screwed in ADHD-ers also handles emotions, so this disorder has lots of comorbids of all sorts - the most plausible explanation

2. emotional disregulation and mental hyperactivity- ADHD-ers tend to be more sensitive, have more extreme emotions and a hyperactive imagination, so whatever trauma they go through, it will have a bigger impact and be replayed over and over again in their minds

3. ADHD-ers are more likely to be abused by parents, bullied, marginalized, made to feel like failures by the society, get involved in dangerous situations, abuse substances- I do think that the study took this into account

daveddd
03-26-14, 01:24 PM
Probably. There could be several reasons:

1. the part of the brain that handles executive functions, which is quite screwed in ADHD-ers also handles emotions, so this disorder has lots of comorbids of all sorts - the most plausible explanation

2. emotional disregulation and mental hyperactivity- ADHD-ers tend to be more sensitive, have more extreme emotions and a hyperactive imagination, so whatever trauma they go through, it will have a bigger impact and be replayed over and over again in their minds

3. ADHD-ers are more likely to be abused by parents, bullied, marginalized, made to feel like failures by the society, get involved in dangerous situations, abuse substances- I do think that the study took this into account

That makes sense

And matches the very interactive cycle my illness has taken

daveddd
03-26-14, 04:54 PM
the interplay of what you mentioned corina, plus the repetitive scenes of social blunders (ptsd) has led me to meet the criteria for avoidant personality too i think

tryn-optmsm
03-26-14, 05:07 PM
Thanks for sharing:
"but those with ADHD + PTSD had higher rates of psychiatric comorbidity than those with ADHD only (including higher lifetime rates of major depressive disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, social phobia, agoraphobia, and generalized anxiety disorder)"

ana futura
03-26-14, 06:14 PM
I have personally never experienced anything that could be classified as "trauma". Yet, I seem to have PTSD symptoms.

Once I got my brain around the fact that I perceive "normal" incidents as "trauma", it was like the whole world opened up for me.

The emotional component of my ADHD is almost cured at this point. At least, it's been greatly defanged. And I owe it all to "trauma processing" in meditation and therapy. ADHD creates PTSD in absence of "true" trauma. There is something about the ADHD brain that makes us more likely to retain negative events.

This is so, so important for us to come to terms with. If we don't, we'll never get better.

Hopefully soon there will be more and more research on this subject.

http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs021/1101166017098/archive/1102411829379.html

This is from 2009, but it's totally on point.


Despite its frequent referencing, we still don't have a consensus about the nature of this debilitating condition among the professional mental health community. Currently, the formal diagnosis of PTSD, (as outlined in the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), requires there to have been an identifiable life-threatening event towards oneself or another that is then followed by a series of additional symptoms that must have persisted for at least several months. The three basic categories of response necessary to qualify as PTSD under this definition are:

re-experiencing the trauma (i.e., distressing memories, dreams, flashbacks, etc.)
avoiding reminders of the trauma (which can include numbing with alcohol, drugs, food, sex, etc., as well as absent-mindedness and distractibility)
behavioral symptoms of increased arousal in the nervous system,

Increasingly, however, trauma specialists argue that trauma shouldn't need to be so narrowly defined. Rather, they assert that PTSD develops when a perceived (not necessarily "actual"), threat is so extreme or continuous that the instinctive responses of fight and flight don't work. Our nervous system revs up to face the threat, but then is overwhelmed and cannot. The only remaining option is to freeze, (the body's instinctive survival strategy of conservation of oxygen and energy), which then locks the arousal inside the body leading to symptoms often many years later.

This disagreement in the medical community prevents many people from getting the best available treatments for PTSD or trauma-related conditions. For example, you will be less likely to be diagnosed with PTSD if you don't have memories of a specific trauma. Some people whose memories of trauma are repressed, or whose trauma was more chronic and developmental, may not (yet) be having dreams or intrusive thoughts, but may indeed show heightened arousal, numbing, and avoidance behaviors. In addition, symptoms may change over time. For example, it is not uncommon for affected people to be in a state of fog and numbing for years before progressing into hyperarousal and panic states. Unfortunately, chronic PTSD doesn't tend to disappear on its own, but instead often gets worse over time.

ana futura
03-26-14, 06:42 PM
Also I suspect that our "predisposition" to PTSD comes not from life events, but from how our brain naturally works.

Negative experiences kick us into a state of hyper-vigilance. When we feel stressed- that's when we pay attention. The rest of the time we aren't very engaged with our surroundings.

I'm sure that it works the other way as well, that we also get made fun of more frequently etc.

But in my experience, everything I can easily recall from childhood is negative-
The times I peed my pants.
The times kids made fun of me.
The times I got in trouble.

But I also had many positive experiences- yet I don't remember them. I don't remember this kid who I was apparently very good friends with, who's house I played at all the time. I don't remember him at all. My mom tells me we were great friends.

But this other kid who chased me around all the time, god I hated him so much. I remember everything about him, yet we really did not spend much time together.

I went to disneyland many times, and my primary memory of it is the one time I couldn't get to the bathroom in time and peed my pants. I loved Disneyland! When I go I still know all of my favorite rides. I still love going as an adult. But my most prominent memory is traumatic.

And I have all these photos, of me having a good time, but none of those memories stick. Only the bad ones do. And from what I've been able to piece together, the actual ratio of good to bad events in my life is not very unusual. But try telling my brain that.

daveddd
03-26-14, 07:15 PM
Thanks for sharing:
"but those with ADHD + PTSD had higher rates of psychiatric comorbidity than those with ADHD only (including higher lifetime rates of major depressive disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, social phobia, agoraphobia, and generalized anxiety disorder)"

i dont understand

daveddd
03-26-14, 07:40 PM
good stuff as always ana

mine are social blunder "scenes"

hyperarousal emotional numbness (like a phobia of emotion)

the whole thing

this is an important thing, its overlooked a lot though

mindfulness i think is the only thing for this


i still have an issue detaching emotion from memories

BellaVita
03-26-14, 07:50 PM
the interplay of what you mentioned corina, plus the repetitive scenes of social blunders (ptsd) has led me to meet the criteria for avoidant personality too i think

I never thought of that....

I stay in my room most of the time, locked in....

Afraid and tense up when people walk by. Or if I hear people. (and think they're talking about me)

Habit I learned and haven't gotten rid of after living with my abusive father for several years...

It's worse now though than ever before.

I need my klonis.

daveddd
03-26-14, 07:59 PM
I never thought of that....

I stay in my room most of the time, locked in....

Afraid and tense up when people walk by. Or if I hear people. (and think they're talking about me)

Habit I learned and haven't gotten rid of after living with my abusive father for several years...

It's worse now though than ever before.

I need my klonis.

same hear , just different reason

can't stand people behind me

it can come across very close to aspergers, but it psychological for sure (in me)

daveddd
03-26-14, 08:07 PM
Thanks for sharing:
"but those with ADHD + PTSD had higher rates of psychiatric comorbidity than those with ADHD only (including higher lifetime rates of major depressive disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, social phobia, agoraphobia, and generalized anxiety disorder)"

oh , for nick?

BellaVita
03-26-14, 08:07 PM
same hear , just different reason

can't stand people behind me

it can come across very close to aspergers, but it psychological for sure (in me)

ah, I see

Psychological for me too.

daveddd
03-26-14, 08:42 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23062450


ana this fits well with what we have talked about

tryn-optmsm
03-27-14, 04:29 AM
daveddd - you shared the link to the study/article --> I quoted the part I found most interesting and thanked you for sharing the link -- that's all

Corina86
03-27-14, 04:58 AM
About the issue of PTSD, I have this question that I haven't been able to find an answer to:

There's a lot of talk in psychiatric literature about events that happened in infancy (< 3 years old) and how these events shape our personality and can cause mental disorders. But we don't remember them, because we were too young.

So my question is: could someone suffer from PTSD from an event that happened when that person was just a baby? If what I read is correct, then yes, it could happen.

@BellaVita: I'm sorry you had to go through that. Honestly, having an abusive parent is one of the worst traumas that can happen to person. It's not a question of perception, emotional disregulation, memory prone to remembering negative events; it's simply a very bad thing that happens in the period of someone life when they're most vulnerable. Sadly, everyone I know who went through this suffers the effects of the trauma, ADHD or not :(

daveddd
03-27-14, 05:18 AM
daveddd - you shared the link to the study/article --> I quoted the part I found most interesting and thanked you for sharing the link -- that's all

oh thanks

adhd you know--

daveddd
03-27-14, 05:21 AM
About the issue of PTSD, I have this question that I haven't been able to find an answer to:

There's a lot of talk in psychiatric literature about events that happened in infancy (< 3 years old) and how these events shape our personality and can cause mental disorders. But we don't remember them, because we were too young.

So my question is: could someone suffer from PTSD from an event that happened when that person was just a baby? If what I read is correct, then yes, it could happen.

@BellaVita: I'm sorry you had to go through that. Honestly, having an abusive parent is one of the worst traumas that can happen to person. It's not a question of perception, emotional disregulation, memory prone to remembering negative events; it's simply a very bad thing that happens in the period of someone life when they're most vulnerable. Sadly, everyone I know who went through this suffers the effects of the trauma, ADHD or not :(


http://books.google.com/books?id=tCmBTeHVpjkC&pg=RA2-PT172&dq=preverbal+ptsd+allan+schore&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-O8zU7eXLO7QsQScxIHYAQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=preverbal%20ptsd%20allan%20schore&f=false

yea preverbal ptsd

slammer21
04-01-14, 10:53 PM
I liked a lot of what was said, and immediately related to this post whenever someone brought up the fact that ADHD'ers are more likely to have emotional extremities. I think of situations I have been in where I don't have a happy "medium" of behavior. It's either one or the other and there are no gray spaces whatsoever.

It seems as if I OVER ANALYZE everything and think things through too much, enough to the point where I get that overwhelmed emotional feeling. Sometimes you just have to trust your gut feeling, when something feels right mentally and makes perfect sense, I think it is good for us to go with that feeling. I also think in certain ways that people who have ADHD also have a good conscious awareness more than others about what is the RIGHT thing to do in a situation, almost like a strong solid sense of direction, but it's hard to follow when you have so many voices in your head. (May be different for some people). In addition, I think our experiences shape and mold much of who we are today. We learned from our bad decisions and experiences and turned them into positive solutions. The one thing I keep relaying to myself in my mind when I encounter a situation is to know that I am my problem, but I am also my SOLUTION. Nice words to live by during life's daily struggles.

ana futura
04-02-14, 11:54 AM
About the issue of PTSD, I have this question that I haven't been able to find an answer to:

There's a lot of talk in psychiatric literature about events that happened in infancy (< 3 years old) and how these events shape our personality and can cause mental disorders. But we don't remember them, because we were too young...

There is a lot of debate right now over what should and shouldn't be considered "trauma".

The link I posted states that many researchers feel that the current definition of trauma, and the current diagnostic criteria for PTSD, are both far too narrow.

Many now think that regardless of whether or not you remember an event, that event can still leave a lasting emotional impression- which can manifest in PTSD like symptoms.

Un_Contained
04-27-14, 05:05 PM
Probably. There could be several reasons:

1. the part of the brain that handles executive functions, which is quite screwed in ADHD-ers also handles emotions, so this disorder has lots of comorbids of all sorts - the most plausible explanation

2. emotional disregulation and mental hyperactivity- ADHD-ers tend to be more sensitive, have more extreme emotions and a hyperactive imagination, so whatever trauma they go through, it will have a bigger impact and be replayed over and over again in their minds

3. ADHD-ers are more likely to be abused by parents, bullied, marginalized, made to feel like failures by the society, get involved in dangerous situations, abuse substances- I do think that the study took this into account

:goodpost:

I had a bit of a tough time reading through the article, but your post mirrors many of my issues. Back 4 or 5 years ago, I had a mental health specialist (can't recall if it was a psychologist or a psychiatrist) not only confirm my (childhood) diagnosis of ADD, but also identified PTSD. - I was sexually abused by my father when I was 12. I deal with the problem of being unable to "let go" of past traumas/hurts for far far longer than your average person and at times it causes me immense grief. I was bullied, and even had teachers tell me I'd never amount to anything. The only road I didn't travel down was dangerous situations or substance abuse of any kind. I never smoked and I didn't drink until I was 21. I took the high road and was vehemently against any and all drugs, and only ever took what my doctor would prescribe me or what I needed that was available over the counter. I also have a very strict nature when it comes to the law and abiding by it. When I was having my testing done by that mental health specialist, I remember laughing at one point because I realized what one of his tests was checking for, and I verified afterwards that it was about impulsitivity, and had him confirm that I'd failed it. And then when it came to the multiple choice questions regarding "What would you do if...". Stuff like you see on workplace quizzes they make you take now before they'll interview you for a job. Have you ever or would you ever steal anything? What would you do if you saw a co-worker stealing etc. I answered all questions honestly as to what I would have done and when he reviewed my answer, he said I cheated because nobody follows the law like that... to which I replied, "Well, then I reject your test. Because that IS how I respond to situations like that." He laughed. :p


Sorry for the rambling. The point of my post was to thank you for the summary of the article.

daveddd
04-27-14, 07:43 PM
There is a lot of debate right now over what should and shouldn't be considered "trauma".

The link I posted states that many researchers feel that the current definition of trauma, and the current diagnostic criteria for PTSD, are both far too narrow.

Many now think that regardless of whether or not you remember an event, that event can still leave a lasting emotional impression- which can manifest in PTSD like symptoms.

trauma is also subjective

someone with heightened fear response can be traumatized by a thunderstorm

someone with a low fear respond can be fine after getting robbed

BellaVita
04-27-14, 07:51 PM
trauma is also subjective

someone with heightened fear response can be traumatized by a thunderstorm

someone with a low fear respond can be fine after getting robbed

Yes..

I know that with what I think is PTSD, I'm VERY sensitive to voices and if I *think* someone yelled at me, even if they didn't, it triggers me and traumatizes me for hours and hours afterward.

And then I usually avoid that person/situation indefinitely.

I can't just "get over it."

Rebelyell
04-27-14, 09:16 PM
Boy **** me hard! I got all 3 of those problems you listed corina.:(

scatterbraingrl
08-14-14, 06:08 AM
About the issue of PTSD, I have this question that I haven't been able to find an answer to:

There's a lot of talk in psychiatric literature about events that happened in infancy (< 3 years old) and how these events shape our personality and can cause mental disorders. But we don't remember them, because we were too young.

So my question is: could someone suffer from PTSD from an event that happened when that person was just a baby? If what I read is correct, then yes, it could happen.


I'm just discovering the details of PTSD... but to answer your question, yes, things can happen at a very young age that can still affect you later. My problem is having 2 traumatic accidents happen - 1 when I was almost 2 years old, & the other as a 20 year old. The earlier accident affected my introverted personality & my self-esteem. Then right when I felt like I had gotten through that, BAM, here's another challenge, which has been even harder to overcome because of anxiety & depression. It's hard enough just getting over 1 event, but I've been suffering from both of them off & on my whole life. I'm looking to try & cope with them better...