View Full Version : Barkley, Psychiatrists


SCIENCE68
03-28-14, 05:24 PM
In my frantic research on ADHD that has been going on since, perhaps, September last year, I have been watching various speakers on YouTube who specialize in ADHD. The one whom I've been most impressed with, who strikes me as really knowing what he's talking about and is not trying to appeal to anyone, is Russell Barkley. Does anyone have any thoughts on his work? Does anyone have suggestions on others to watch/read? I don't mind hearing criticisms of Barkley's work, as I suspect there are.

Greyhound1
03-29-14, 09:06 PM
In my frantic research on ADHD that has been going on since, perhaps, September last year, I have been watching various speakers on YouTube who specialize in ADHD. The one whom I've been most impressed with, who strikes me as really knowing what he's talking about and is not trying to appeal to anyone, is Russell Barkley. Does anyone have any thoughts on his work? Does anyone have suggestions on others to watch/read? I don't mind hearing criticisms of Barkley's work, as I suspect there are.

I think the lack of responses is most likely due to the respect most here have for Dr. Barkley. I hope you get some other responses.

daveddd
03-29-14, 09:10 PM
thomas brown and joel nigg are two other very good adhd researchers to read

http://www.drthomasebrown.com

barkley is fine to read

dvdnvwls
03-29-14, 09:25 PM
The only consistent criticism I hear of Barkley's work is from people with unsubstantiated pet theories who don't appreciate his insistence on believing what there's evidence for. :) I'm sure there is legitimate criticism as well, but certainly the majority of the complaints about him are from quacks and quack-supporters.

mildadhd
03-29-14, 11:58 PM
Dr.Barkley's executive theories don't include the unconditioned emotional responses that they are built upon.

"Focus on the emotion, not the behavior."



-Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", P4.




Emotions come first (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1629542#post1629542)


i!i

SCIENCE68
05-18-14, 01:57 PM
Hello Peripheral,

Thanks for responding, but I don't quite understand what you're saying. In the speeches I've listened to, he's talked about the emotions of those with ADHD. And in terms of his theories, he does seem to base what he says on loads of evidence, from the research of others and his own.

Anyway, thanks Greyhound1, daveddd, and dvdnvwls, for responding and for your suggestions. I will check out Thomas Brown and Joel Nigg.

Dizfriz
05-18-14, 03:10 PM
Here is a bunch of stuff much of it based on Barkley. One particular essay "What is ADHD and how does it affect people" lists some videos. You might find something new here. Also there is a transcript of a Barkley workshop. Kinda old as those things go but still pretty accurate. It has helped a lot of people so you might find some items of use.

I wrote these to give ideas and not instructions. Take what you will and leave the rest.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60130

Dizfriz

ginniebean
05-18-14, 04:01 PM
Barkley takes an evidence based stance. He doesn't comment on wild theories that have nothing to do directly with adhd like unconditioned emotional responses which is suspect to begin with.

Many people find Barkley difficult because he has almost single handedly battled gifters with a program of some sort to sell and who almost got disability status withheld from people with adhd because of all of the unsubstantiated claims. Some of them have backtracked since on their trivializing of adhd but many have not.

He will also at times express personal opinions which have been wrong or overly harsh. That said, he has the research to back up his claims of adhd and without him all his detractors who take meds die adult adhd would not be getting meds as it was his longitudinal studies that clearly showed adhd continues on into adulthood.

I find he can at times be abrasive tho given his striving to have adhd recognised as a serious mental health issue and not trivialized by merchants he's had to take a hard line evidentiary stance.

You may not like how he says something but he can almost always back it up with facts.

daveddd
05-18-14, 09:37 PM
Barkley takes an evidence based stance. He doesn't comment on wild theories that have nothing to do directly with adhd like unconditioned emotional responses which is suspect to begin with.

Many people find Barkley difficult because he has almost single handedly battled gifters with a program of some sort to sell and who almost got disability status withheld from people with adhd because of all of the unsubstantiated claims. Some of them have backtracked since on their trivializing of adhd but many have not.

He will also at times express personal opinions which have been wrong or overly harsh. That said, he has the research to back up his claims of adhd and without him all his detractors who take meds die adult adhd would not be getting meds as it was his longitudinal studies that clearly showed adhd continues on into adulthood.

I find he can at times be abrasive tho given his striving to have adhd recognised as a serious mental health issue and not trivialized by merchants he's had to take a hard line evidentiary stance.

You may not like how he says something but he can almost always back it up with facts.

unconditioned emotional responses are a well known fact

you can criticize ideas, just make sure to criticize the right ones

ginniebean
05-18-14, 10:31 PM
unconditioned emotional responses are a well known fact

you can criticize ideas, just make sure to criticize the right ones

Dave, what do they have to do DIRECTLY with ADHD? WHY should a researcher who researches ADHD who as SOMEONE suggested in this thread he FAILS to account for?


Unconditioned emotional responses have nothing to do with adhd. And my opinion stands.


Your advice to me to not criticise apparently is selective as barkley was criticized in a thread asking about him for not talking accounting for something that does NOT relate specifically to adhd, HIS specialty. Shall he be criticise for not accounting for the phases of the moon too? Lack of astronomical data?

I disagree with the list of unconditioned emotional responses and I do not agree it's "fact".

daveddd
05-19-14, 01:45 AM
you should email dr barkley and ask him what his thoughts on primary emotion are, and what there relation to adhd is

ginniebean
05-19-14, 02:07 AM
you should email dr barkley and ask him what his thoughts on primary emotion are, and what there relation to adhd is

No thanks, tho if you decide to I'd be interested in his response. I suspect he's rather busy researching about humans with adhd tho. Never know maybe he has a dog.

Fuzzy12
05-19-14, 03:17 AM
I like him. He makes a lot of sense and I love the way he explains things. He's extremely clear and very easy to understand (unlike me..sorry if I was supposed to post a scientific critic :D)

Dizfriz
05-19-14, 09:11 AM
unconditioned emotional responses are a well known fact

you can criticize ideas, just make sure to criticize the right ones
There are many known facts about a lot of thing that have no specific relevancy to ADHD.

Bringing them up without making the connections is just a distraction away from the topic.

Dizfriz

daveddd
05-19-14, 09:23 AM
Barkley has mentioned bottom emotions in relation to ADHD


It's pretty interesting

Dizfriz
05-19-14, 03:10 PM
you should email dr barkley and ask him what his thoughts on primary emotion are, and what there relation to adhd is
Dave, why do you think ginnie should do this? Why can't you or Peri do it if you are interested?

Mostly I see unconditioned emotional responses as a distraction unless the connection can be made between it and ADHD or Barkley's view on executive functions.

Yes, unconditioned emotional responses exist but what do they specifically have to do with ADHD or executive functions? I do not see much about them on the internet so I am not sure that they have very much overall impact at least under that name.

Dizfriz

daveddd
05-21-14, 06:33 AM
Dave, why do you think ginnie should do this? Why can't you or Peri do it if you are interested?

Mostly I see unconditioned emotional responses as a distraction unless the connection can be made between it and ADHD or Barkley's view on executive functions.

Yes, unconditioned emotional responses exist but what do they specifically have to do with ADHD or executive functions? I do not see much about them on the internet so I am not sure that they have very much overall impact at least under that name.

Dizfriz

because i think if your going to brush something off you should you know what you're speaking about , its a good way to learn

i know quite a bit about it already

it seems pretty certain adhd is very involved with primary emotions, bottom up, unconditioned emotions

daveddd
05-21-14, 07:09 AM
the stroop test and subliminal faces would both demonstrate unconditioned responses

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3164556/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3155780/

MADD As A Hatte
05-21-14, 09:03 AM
Does anyone have suggestions on others to watch/read?.

Dr Patricia Quinn
2011 Burnett Lecture (the year before Barkley presented, refer my signature).

Dr Quinn is doing excellent work on ADD in girls and women, throughout the life cycle. She's the female version of Russ!

http://learningcenter.unc.edu/ldadhd-services/burnett-seminars/dr-patricia-quinn/

Dizfriz
05-21-14, 09:45 AM
because i think if your going to brush something off you should you know what you're speaking about , its a good way to learn

i know quite a bit about it already

it seems pretty certain adhd is very involved with primary emotions, bottom up, unconditioned emotions
OK but it is the task of those presenting the idea to show support for it. Just mentioning it and then asking others to research it is not all that productive.

I looked up the term "unconditioned" in Barkley's book Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (Third Edition) and only got one hit (referred to unconditioned punitive stimuli) so at least under that term this seems to have much impact with Barkley.

The question is then, should it have impact? If you could provide some references to this and ADHD, I would be more than glad to look them up so we could discuss it but to ask ginnie to write Barkley about it is a little over the top (IMO). You could do this yourself if you think it that important.

Take care,

Dizfriz

ginniebean
05-21-14, 12:14 PM
because i think if your going to brush something off you should you know what you're speaking about , its a good way to learn

i know quite a bit about it already

it seems pretty certain adhd is very involved with primary emotions, bottom up, unconditioned emotions


Dave,

I have been reading the incoherent ramblings on this stuff for two years. If I ask questions they go unanswered. I'm done. This is a discussion forum not a forum for people to demand others read everything they are reading so they don't need to discuss anything.

Like dizfriz said. If you have information pertinent and specific to adhd by all means bring it but if people aren't willing to even discuss it I don't care. The whole us vs them is pathetic and I'm beyond disgusted with the play the victim crap.

If it's not pertinent and specific them it's a wild eyed speculation. Any criticism of Barkley or ANY researcher for that matter, for not accounting for pet speculations is absurd and I will say so. That is not a critique it's an imposition meant to distract from the topic.

I resent that and dead tired of it.

Lunacie
05-21-14, 12:44 PM
Dr.Barkley's executive theories don't include the unconditioned emotional responses that they are built upon.





Emotions come first (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1629542#post1629542)


i!i

The information in the thread you've linked is about emotions affecting behavior.

I thought it was now understood that ADHD is not primarily behavioral, but is a neurologic issue.

These issues involve chemical imbalances and are more likely caused by problems in the gut than in our emotions.

Fuzzy12
05-21-14, 12:49 PM
The information in the thread you've linked is about emotions affecting behavior.

I thought it was now understood that ADHD is not primarily behavioral, but is a neurologic issue.

These issues involve chemical imbalances and are more likely caused by problems in the gut than in our emotions.

The way I understand it it's the other way round, i.e. ADHD causes emotional dysregulation. (sorry, if I'm just stating the bleeding obvious. If I've misunderstood though I'd like to know so please correct me.)

Lunacie
05-21-14, 01:02 PM
The way I understand it it's the other way round, i.e. ADHD causes emotional dysregulation. (sorry, if I'm just stating the bleeding obvious. If I've misunderstood though I'd like to know so please correct me.)

Yes, exactly. That's my understanding as well. :yes:

daveddd
05-21-14, 07:21 PM
OK but it is the task of those presenting the idea to show support for it. Just mentioning it and then asking others to research it is not all that productive.

I looked up the term "unconditioned" in Barkley's book Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (Third Edition) and only got one hit (referred to unconditioned punitive stimuli) so at least under that term this seems to have much impact with Barkley.

The question is then, should it have impact? If you could provide some references to this and ADHD, I would be more than glad to look them up so we could discuss it but to ask ginnie to write Barkley about it is a little over the top (IMO). You could do this yourself if you think it that important.

Take care,

Dizfriz

i didn't mean it to be insulting

me and ginine have a pretty close relationship , not the slightest thought of insult came to my mind when i wrote it

but if barkley says something i feel it will be validated , i have contacted several researchers by email , and always get a response

so just clarifying

again if your looking for exact wording you won't get very far

unconditioned emotional responses, are primary, or bottom up

daveddd
05-21-14, 07:22 PM
The information in the thread you've linked is about emotions affecting behavior.

I thought it was now understood that ADHD is not primarily behavioral, but is a neurologic issue.

These issues involve chemical imbalances and are more likely caused by problems in the gut than in our emotions.

psychological disorders originate in the gut?

do you have info on this?

daveddd
05-21-14, 07:23 PM
The way I understand it it's the other way round, i.e. ADHD causes emotional dysregulation. (sorry, if I'm just stating the bleeding obvious. If I've misunderstood though I'd like to know so please correct me.)

what part and how?

we are born with adhd and emotional regulation is a learned behavior as a toddler

how does the adhd interfere with learning it?

daveddd
05-21-14, 07:25 PM
and BTW, i linked two studies involving adhd and primary emotion

thomas brown, head of the yale clinic of adhd is now using this information

Lunacie
05-21-14, 07:34 PM
psychological disorders originate in the gut?

do you have info on this?

It's something I've seen in the news a few times lately, in connection to autism and other mental health issues.


what part and how?

we are born with adhd and emotional regulation is a learned behavior as a toddler

how does the adhd interfere with learning it?

ADHD is not a learning disorder, it impairs our ability to use what we've learned timely and appropriately.

daveddd
05-21-14, 07:38 PM
i didn't say adhd was a learning disorder

i said emotional regulation is something you learn, not something you're born with

adhd is something you're born with

and people with adhd can learn emotional regulation later in life

so why do people with adhd not learn emotional regulation early in life?

Lunacie
05-21-14, 07:47 PM
i didn't say adhd was a learning disorder

i said emotional regulation is something you learn, not something you're born with

adhd is something you're born with

and people with adhd can learn emotional regulation later in life

so why do people with adhd not learn emotional regulation early in life?

Why do you think we don't learn emotional regulation early in life?

Since ADHD is not a learning disorder, there is no reason we can't learn that.

It's not about what we do or don't learn, it's about being unable to use what we know effectively.

daveddd
05-21-14, 07:48 PM
then why can we learn and use it with guidance and therapy

or why is it just fine in an office testing setting

that rules out broken wires or low body chemicals

Lunacie
05-21-14, 07:53 PM
then why can we learn and use it with guidance and therapy

or why is it just fine in an office testing setting

that rules out broken wires or low body chemicals

The wires are not "broken", they don't connect properly.
Therapy can help us make new connections.

Research has shown that the chemical levels in our brains is different than in non-ADHD brains.

daveddd
05-21-14, 07:57 PM
The wires are not "broken", they don't connect properly.
Therapy can help us make new connections.

Research has shown that the chemical levels in our brains is different than in non-ADHD brains.

interesting view, if therapy can make new connections that sure proves how incredible the brain is, but it also hints to me that issues are less biological then assumed

low chemical levels can very much be an effect, as much as a cause

chemical levels vary while experiencing happiness

daveddd
05-21-14, 08:41 PM
i highly, highly recommend the 2014 book by thomas browne 'smart but stuck, emotions in teens and adults with adhd'

barkley praised it

excellent
http://books.google.com/books?id=uubOAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=thomas+e+brown+smart+but+stuck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eEd9U4-xNNS98QG8toCgDg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=thomas%20e%20brown%20smart%20but%20stuck&f=false

daveddd
05-21-14, 09:10 PM
the role of unconscious emotions
Many people think of emotions as involving only conscious feelings, limited to sensations of sadness, anger, pleasure, worry, and so on that a person is fully aware of and generally able to identify. Neuroscience research has shown that conscious feelings are only the tip of the massive iceberg of emotion that operates within each person to motivate executive functions.
emotions at various levels of consciousness
Much of emotional processing goes on outside of our awareness, and the less conscious emotions are often subtle, contradictory, and complex. Emotions involved in activities or relationships are often difficult to assess because they operate on multiple levels of consciousness. Often a person consciously thinks of a particular task as quitimportant, honestly believing that she wants to give it immediate attention and full effort, yet she does not act accordingly. She may continue to procrastinate, busying herself with work on other tasks that are not as urgent, or repeatedly interrupting work on the seemingly important task and actually making little progress at all. Or she may actively seek out distractions by initiating contact with friends, surfing the Internet, getting high, or going to sleep. Such contradictions make sense only when we realize that emotions often are not fully conscious and often are conflicting. We may be powerfully influenced by emotions we don't even know we have. For those with ADHD who are seriously stuck, talk therapy is often essential to unraveling their emotions and helping them move toward recovery.
Neuroscientist Antonio Damasio was describing these unconscious influences of emotions on EF when he wrote that
the emotional signal can operate entirely under the radar of consciousness. It can produce alterations in working memory, attention and reasoning so that the decision-making process is biased toward selecting the action most likely to lead to the best possible outcome, given prior experience. The individual may not ever be cognizant of this covert operation.16
Another neuroscientist, Joseph LeDoux, argued that
many of the things we do, including the appraisal of the emotional significance of events in our lives and the expression of emotional behaviors in response to those appraisals, do not depend on consciousness, or even on processes that we necessarily have conscious access to.1


from the book
by thomas browne 'smart but stuck, emotions in teens and adults with adhd'
page 31

Flory
05-21-14, 09:25 PM
Barkley spoke about the anterior cingulate (area in the brain responsible for behaviour and consequence) being under developed/different in people with ADHD causing more raw emotion, impulsivity, harder to suppress anger, excitability etc ....sorry I'm a complete novice as far as this goes but it's something I remember Barkley talking about

daveddd
05-21-14, 09:54 PM
Barkley spoke about the anterior cingulate (area in the brain responsible for behaviour and consequence) being under developed/different in people with ADHD causing more raw emotion, impulsivity, harder to suppress anger, excitability etc ....sorry I'm a complete novice as far as this goes but it's something I remember Barkley talking about

there are now several areas of the brain responsible for psychological development, that have not developed fully in adhd

because of neuroplasticity there are now ways being developed to fully develop those areas even in old age!

ginniebean
05-21-14, 10:06 PM
there are now several areas of the brain responsible for psychological development, that have not developed fully in adhd

because of neuroplasticity there are now ways being developed to fully develop those areas even in old age!

Has any neuroplasticity been shown to work reliably? I may be a couple of years out of date on this but as far as I know there haven't been controlled studies done and they didn't know enough to say it would even work.

It sounds like a great idea but if it can't be said to work on a sizable portion of the adhd population it's just another 'therapy' that's sucking much needed money down a hole.

daveddd
05-21-14, 10:10 PM
Has any neuroplasticity been shown to work reliably? I may be a couple of years out of date on this but as far as I know there haven't been controlled studies done and they didn't know enough to say it would even work.

It sounds like a great idea but if it can't be said to work on a sizable portion of the adhd population it's just another 'therapy' that's sucking much needed money down a hole.

as in a brain imaging biological study or excellent therapeutic results ?

because both with mindful emotional acceptance

a quick study

http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/1/85.full

even mentions the anterior cingulate

Dizfriz
05-22-14, 06:18 AM
http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/1/85.full


Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

One thing to keep in mind with studies like these, the key is replication preferably several times.

Dizfriz

daveddd
05-22-14, 06:32 AM
there are several small studies and papers, all with positive results

conversations like this may look like an attempt to be right

only because id love others to go from the extreme severe end of adhd to pretty high functioning

the personal insights I've gained match this science identically, (i know, personal anecdote ) and i constantly see the same pre-insight problems posted here that i went through to the tee

Flory
05-22-14, 07:48 AM
I think it was called biofeedback or neurofeedback or something but I remember heatin a bout a study that showed in this instance that it hadn't worked for ADHD particularly combined type ADHD ....I'm going to hunt down the study , it was done in the UK. It's something I was interested in considering at one time

Flory
05-22-14, 08:48 AM
Dave what's plasticity training (sorry I'm a complete layman) I find those big texts near on impossible to read

daveddd
05-22-14, 09:08 AM
It's not training really

It just means you can change neural pathways

The differences in the ADHD brain can be changed with use

Like working out and building muscle

Dizfriz
05-22-14, 10:13 AM
It's not training really

It just means you can change neural pathways

The differences in the ADHD brain can be changed with use

Like working out and building muscle

Dave, I wish this were true but since most of the issues (but not all) involved are neurochemical in nature, these cannot be trained away. The brain is not that plastic to that degree as far as we can tell.

With some aspects of the brain, this training effect can true but for most, what you got is what you get.

Just like a stroke, you can retrain some of the brain for replacement functions but not for most.

The big thing here, I suspect, is that it is easy to take the research past where it is justified because we wish so much it would be true.

Dizfriz

daveddd
05-22-14, 11:07 AM
ADHD is a chemical problem?

I've seen quite a bit of science that seems to be saying otherwise

daveddd
05-22-14, 11:09 AM
Someothertime. The mod. Had a great video on changing neural pathways

daveddd
05-22-14, 11:12 AM
Dizfriz.

I really think you would enjoy that book I recommended earlier

Dizfriz
05-22-14, 11:31 AM
ADHD is a chemical problem?

I've seen quite a bit of science that seems to be saying otherwise

dave, that is not what I said, I said it was most of the issues are a neruochemical problem or you can term it neruobiological problem in that much of it has to do with neurotransmitters. That is not all of course but it is a lot of it. That is what the medications work on.

I cannot see any way that learning or training is going to affect this.

Brain plasticity is real but is rather limited as far as I can tell. At least at this point, there is no evidence that indicates that you can learn your way out of ADHD. I am not sure but this sounds like what you are saying.

BTW, the book looks interesting. I will look into it as soon as I finish Nigg's book. Looks like Nigg is going to take me a while though.

Take care,

Dizfriz

Lunacie
05-22-14, 11:36 AM
It's not training really

It just means you can change neural pathways

The differences in the ADHD brain can be changed with use
Like working out and building muscle

Some things can be changed, others cannot; such as the color of one's eyes
or the fact of being color-blind. Those are genetic.

Can we adapt our brains to mitigate ADHD? To some extent.
Can we "cure" the ADHD through brain exercises? Doubtful.

daveddd
05-22-14, 08:19 PM
Some things can be changed, others cannot; such as the color of one's eyes
or the fact of being color-blind. Those are genetic.

Can we adapt our brains to mitigate ADHD? To some extent.
Can we "cure" the ADHD through brain exercises? Doubtful.

cure is the wrong word, adhd is not something you have or you don't like being pregnant, its a continuum of normal human behavior


so nothing to cure here

flory mentioned brain exercises , I'm speaking of non spiritual vipisanna emotional exceptance and awareness, i referenced exercise because its a part of the brain we didn't previously use

here is what we know

:barkley took some great models of executive function, added some tweaks and made it better

he stresses , self regulation acts are "self directed conscious acts " he makes it abundantly clear these processes are not performed by brain chemicals or a homunculus in our pre frontal cortex(his words)

we know what to do but can't do it? right?

not exactly, we score well within the normal range on neuropsycological executive function tests while sitting in an office, and we do fine if its a subject of interest, so that "can't" goes out the window

so our executive functions are normal to above average in non salient or positive salience situations

whats that leave? negative salience, its those negative emotions constantly unregulated (conscious and unconscious ) that drown out EFs

a constant state of "my emotions got the best of me"

we can't cure our emotional intensity, but we can completely change the way we accept them, leaving intact EFs

Lunacie
05-22-14, 08:26 PM
not exactly, we score well within the normal range on neuropsycological executive function tests while sitting in an office, and we do fine if its a subject of interest, so that "can't" goes out the window


I wish it was that dependable. It's actually very common to do well on a test one day, and totally fail it just a day or three later.

daveddd
05-22-14, 08:41 PM
I wish it was that dependable. It's actually very common to do well on a test one day, and totally fail it just a day or three later.


so you agree, we are capable of self regulation

but different days , different moods will probablt affect any persons results

were just the extreme end

Dizfriz
05-22-14, 08:46 PM
he stresses , self regulation acts are "self directed conscious acts " he makes it abundantly clear these processes are not performed by brain chemicals or a homunculus in our pre frontal cortex(his words)
Dave can you cite where he says this. The reason is that all brain functions are a matter of neurotransmitters. This is what activates the neurons.


Dizfriz

daveddd
05-22-14, 08:51 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=1e8VAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA115&dq=barkley,+self+directed+conscious+acts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rpp-U9ZKjYmqBuXhgYAL&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=barkley%2C%20self%20directed%20conscious%20acts&f=false


i relate to this, its generic, sorry

if we become extremely stressed by life events , our bodies will produce large amounts of cortisol

drinking alcohol will reduce it and alleviate the stress

did low alcohol cause the stress?

daveddd
05-22-14, 08:53 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=TS6pgND1xdoC&pg=PA28&dq=barkley,+homunculus&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1Jt-U4_nJtOLqgb24oKoBA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=barkley%2C%20homunculus&f=false


great couple pages by barkley

Lunacie
05-22-14, 09:03 PM
so you agree, we are capable of self regulation

but different days , different moods will probablt affect any persons results

were just the extreme end

If we could just choose when to be capable of self regulation ... problem solved. :doh:

daveddd
05-22-14, 09:07 PM
If we could just choose when to be capable of self regulation ... problem solved. :doh:

i agree

do you believe its completely random and uninfluenced when we can and can't self regulate?

Lunacie
05-22-14, 09:13 PM
i agree

do you believe its completely random and uninfluenced when we can and can't self regulate?

It may be so. It also may have to do with how well we slept the night before, whether we ate breakfast, whether we're dealing with a lot of stress, whether we remembered to take our meds, whether we're getting sick, etc.

Sometimes it all comes together, and sometimes it simply won't, no matter how well we've been taking care of ourselves.

daveddd
05-22-14, 09:22 PM
It may be so. It also may have to do with how well we slept the night before, whether we ate breakfast, whether we're dealing with a lot of stress, whether we remembered to take our meds, whether we're getting sick, etc.

Sometimes it all comes together, and sometimes it simply won't, no matter how well we've been taking care of ourselves.

i agree with all the negative situations you've posted above

although the words "simply won't" cannot be definitively used until all options have been exercised and failed

have you tried non spiritual emotional acceptance and awareness training, guided by a trained psychologist and failed?

Lunacie
05-22-14, 09:40 PM
i agree with all the negative situations you've posted above

although the words "simply won't" cannot be definitively used until all options have been exercised and failed

have you tried non spiritual emotional acceptance and awareness training, guided by a trained psychologist and failed?

I imagine that makes the times when it "simply won't come together" happen less often, but I think until there is a cure for ADHD there will still be times when we think we can self-regulate but "simply can't."

daveddd
05-22-14, 09:43 PM
I imagine that makes the times when it "simply won't come together" happen less often, but I think until there is a cure for ADHD there will still be times when we think we can self-regulate but "simply can't."

i think this holds true for a lot of humans


its about moving up the spectrum and shedding those additional problems like depression , anxiety self doubt, negative self views, and so on

daveddd
05-22-14, 09:50 PM
good replication here

64% compared to zero

kind of rules out placebo


http://sharpbrains.com/blog/2013/12/10/study-does-mindfulness-meditation-training-help-adults-with-adhd/

Lunacie
05-22-14, 09:52 PM
i think this holds true for a lot of humans


its about moving up the spectrum and shedding those additional problems like depression , anxiety self doubt, negative self views, and so on

Depression and anxiety aren't always psychological or situational. They can also be caused by chemical imbalances.
My family history (mom's side) is just as full of anxiety as ADHD and Autism - sometimes alongside those disorders, sometimes just anxiety.

daveddd
05-22-14, 09:56 PM
Depression and anxiety aren't always psychological or situational. They can also be caused by chemical imbalances.
My family history (mom's side) is just as full of anxiety as ADHD and Autism - sometimes alongside those disorders, sometimes just anxiety.

i pretty much need scientific proof to believe something, sorry concrete thinking

and I'm still waiting on proof for any chemical imbalance theories

Lunacie
05-22-14, 10:08 PM
i pretty much need scientific proof to believe something, sorry concrete thinking

and I'm still waiting on proof for any chemical imbalance theories

Chemical imbalance is just how I remember the problem. It's an imbalance in the chemicals that facilitate communication between the neurons in our brains. They are called neurotransmitters.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Kau-Nu/Neurotransmitters.html

daveddd
05-22-14, 10:13 PM
Chemical imbalance is just how I remember the problem. It's an imbalance in the chemicals that facilitate communication between the neurons in our brains. They are called neurotransmitters.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Kau-Nu/Neurotransmitters.html

yea i understand that

I'm still waiting for proof that its a cause not an effect of poor regulation

the body does and doesn't release all kinds of different chemicals in reaction to different situations

i believe that there are detectable chemical reactions to all emotions, positive or negative

daveddd
05-22-14, 10:16 PM
a quote from barkley resonates with me well

"cognitive neuropshycologys view of humanity is frankly not worth having" russell barkley

Lunacie
05-22-14, 10:16 PM
yea i understand that

I'm still waiting for proof that its a cause not an effect of poor regulation

the body does and doesn't release all kinds of different chemicals in reaction to different situations

i believe that there are detectable chemical reactions to all emotions, positive or negative

Going with your theory, how does that explain that the way our bodies react to emotions seems to be inherited?

daveddd
05-22-14, 10:22 PM
Going with your theory, how does that explain that the way our bodies react to emotions seems to be inherited?

well the body releasing hormones and chemicals in response to situations is not exactly "my" theory

bottom up emotions are survival instincts , probably came about through evolution

but the aren't disorders , the top down processes in which we deal with them are what causes the disorders

daveddd
05-22-14, 10:24 PM
and i absolutely believe we can be born extremely sensitive to one or more bottom up emotion(especially certain monogenic tissue connectivity syndromes), greatly contributing to the failed modulation of the emotions

Lunacie
05-22-14, 10:43 PM
well the body releasing hormones and chemicals in response to situations is not exactly "my" theory

bottom up emotions are survival instincts , probably came about through evolution

but the aren't disorders , the top down processes in which we deal with them are what causes the disorders

Maybe my question wasn't clear enough (I know it's not "your" theory).

Why do children exhibit the same responses that their parents or grandparents exhibit?
Why do my grandkids have ADHD and Autism and Depression and Anxiety like others in my extended family do?
Why don't they have schitzophrenia? Or bipolar?

daveddd
05-22-14, 11:52 PM
same genetic diathesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diathesis–stress_model

Lunacie
05-23-14, 12:11 AM
So it's basically a chicken-or-egg dilemma. We're not really that far apart, it's just that you say stress causes mental illness while I say mental illness causes stress (very simplified).

daveddd
05-23-14, 12:18 AM
yea, but i also say something makes us much more vulnerable to stress

but the something isn't the disorder, the disorders are coping mechanisms

like, our EFs aren't bad, the vulnerability plus stress overrides them

sounds minimal, but a very important difference

barkley mentions the sensitive irritable temperament in adhd babies, yet only half go on to have adhd

ginniebean
05-23-14, 01:35 AM
As i understand the link you gave me Dave, the use of meditation is palliative. Meaning, that it needs to keep being used to be effective. Whereas a neuroplastic effect would make lasting changes in the brain.

The study didn't have any follow up as to how long the effects lasted from mindfulness.

daveddd
05-23-14, 02:35 AM
meditation is a good way to start mindful awareness

but eventually it becomes a constant conscious state of mind with no effort

Dizfriz
05-23-14, 10:20 AM
Quote: Originally Posted by daveddd View Post


stresses , self regulation acts are "self directed conscious acts " he makes it abundantly clear these processes are not performed by brain chemicals or a homunculus in our pre frontal cortex(his words) Dave can you cite where he says this. The reason is that all brain functions are a matter of neurotransmitters. This is what activates the neurons.

I could not find it relating to neurotransmitters in the book but what I think he was saying was that is not "just" a matter of brain chemicals. Makes more sense.

Dizfriz

ginniebean
05-23-14, 12:04 PM
meditation is a good way to start mindful awareness

but eventually it becomes a constant conscious state of mind with no effort

Well no, I've been involved in mindfulness practices for over 25 years. There is a LOT more to it than I think you're looking at. A permanent state change where mindfulness becomes effortless is what millions of people seek thru various transformative spirituality. The vast majority never attain this effortlessness.

I am actually VERY uneasy about the cannibalizing of spiritual practices for therapy. In some sense it may render them useless because they are pulled out of their context. Following that there is inevitably a deviation in understanding their use and they remain incomplete as well when they are dismantled from context as well.

I'll see if I can send you something privately about the limitations of mindfulness alone.

I do understand your enthusiasm, and your positive regard for these practices, they can assist people but I do not see them as any global panacea.

daveddd
05-23-14, 01:03 PM
When it comes to the mind it plays a huge role

But I think meds help too

daveddd
05-23-14, 01:09 PM
There are specific therapies designed around mindfulness.

I'm enthused But only because this is the science now

Not personal experience

ginniebean
05-23-14, 03:11 PM
There are specific therapies designed around mindfulness.

I'm enthused But only because this is the science now

Not personal experience

Have you any studies that show long term effectiveness? Are there studies specific to people with adhd? I an very curious.


Actually, I took issue with the statement that mindfulness would become effortless over time. Do you have science to back that up? I don't happen to think there is science verifying that.

daveddd
05-24-14, 07:59 AM
Have you any studies that show long term effectiveness? Are there studies specific to people with adhd? I an very curious.


Actually, I took issue with the statement that mindfulness would become effortless over time. Do you have science to back that up? I don't happen to think there is science verifying that.

no, do you have any studies that show the long term effectiveness of meds

as for the effortless thing , i can give you the science, a little at a time

http://books.google.com/books?id=gFo_zhxys0AC&source=gbs_slider_cls_metadata_7_mylibrary

http://books.google.com/books?id=gXf2aZitl9wC&printsec=frontcover&dq=mindsight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lImAU-26G8KPqAbwh4DQBg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mindsight&f=false

here is a good place to start

daveddd
05-24-14, 08:03 AM
one thing, it seems you still view adhd as a singular disease entity

thats incorrect, and will make your understanding difficult

ginniebean
05-24-14, 12:42 PM
Dave,

I'm asking questions because I want to know whether we know something or if we don't know something. The science behind adhd is rapid and has increased so much in the last 30 years it's difficult to keep up.

I have no investment in any specific idea. What I am interested in is what are the best practices we know of to date. What I see happening all too frequently is people becoming invested in certain ideas giving them an unwarranted certainty.

I think what we don't know is as important as what we do know. I'm open to the possibility that adhd is a multi-disease state but i'm skeptical because strictly speaking adhd is not a disease. It's a developmental disability like mental retardation (intellectual disability) We know people with developmental disabilities CAN learn, we know that lives can be massively improved. What we don't know is to what extent and to a large degree that is individual based on severity and co-morbidity.

What I appears to be happening in almost all of the discussions is an un-scientifically inclined attitude buttressed by personal identification with a theoretical model which causes questions to be viewed as hostile when as far as science is concerned we should find welcome.

Best practices the why's and wherefores are almost wholly absent from these discussions and appear to be met with hostile opposition. Why? Damped if I know. Knowledge is built upon prior knowledge, sometimes stuff gets thrown out and a new direction is taken.

Sadly what I see happening is prior knowledge is being ignored and a few bi-lateral ideas are being asserted as if they actually have the same research weight behind them.

It's completely fine with me that people explore these alternative streams but if asking questions causes a negative emotional reaction it's the death of knowledge and the beginning of identification with a personal belief structure.

There are long term studies done on the effectiveness of medication treatment. I saw one the other day but can't recall where but it should be easy enough to find. I'm on my phone so going blind looking for it on a tiny screen so if you insist I present that evidence you'll have to wait or go looking.

Had evidence shown medication was not a useful long term treatment ok. We'd have to acknowledge that. What blows my mind is I keep getting accused of being biased in favourite of meds when I'm the one who can't even take meds. The people asserting meds may be unnecessary are ALL on meds. I stick to beat known practices and if that changes I will change with it

Listening to people asserting speculative information because they have a gut feeling about it isn't good enough for me.

I'm open to hearing about the effectiveness of mindfulness. I do want to know if studies have been done on the adhd population, if those studies show measurable results, what duration are any positive results, and does it have any true neuroplastic effect.


If the answer is "we don't know yet then that's the actual answer and it doesn't require any obfuscation like "well what about this other thing do you have answers for it? That smacks of an unhealthy identification with a subject leading to confirmation bias.

I am at a complete loss as to how it's even become accepted practice on this forum to divide people into camps rather than looking for information that has a yes, no, maybe or we don't know.

The latter is the most productive and doesn't assume any personal motive.

This thread is about Barkley, someone asked questions specific to him. Why does every thread have to turn into something completely unrelated to what Barkley himself has studied. What would anyone interested in Barkley'a research walk away from this topic with?

Why is there this incessant need to pander to information that is so largely in the "we don't know yet" category to promote it at the expense of what we do know? Why isn't it possible to have even ONE thread that discusses Barkley or other researchers and the best practices laid out to date?

There could be legitimate critique but what we're getting consistently is "barkley isn't researching my pet idea therefore his information is suspect which is complete ********.

Then everything goes to **** and the discussion once AGAIN veers right off into the pet topic of HUNDREDS of threads on here rather than allowing just ONE ******* thread to be about A specific researcher and HIS findings.

Unless Barkley had shown interest in mindfulness why the hell are we discussing it in THIS thread?

Are there too many Barkley or other adhd researchers threads on here? Are there too many threads on best practices because of the results these research conclusions on here?

Becaue in the past couple of years I count NONE that have not been derailed. NOT EVEN ONE!

Sure people have ideas that are personally important to them, that they have emotional investment in. But for **** sakes is there ANY room for people who don't share this investment? Who want to have a dispassionate conversation about the state of research now?

I honestly don't know why I care anymore. People are driven out of this section by the caterwauling of the few. Everyone should be allowed to enjoy this section without having to acknowledge the personal attachment some have to ideas that have NOT yet caused any change in best practices.


Arrrgh sorry this is not only addressed to you. This gets under my skin because I'm sick of it. Other people should matter too!

daveddd
05-24-14, 01:05 PM
here is my question,, science has shown adhd is a group of symptoms that occur together , and if a family member has it, you may or may not have it

thats all

no one here has argued any of those facts ever

so maybe its your group thats projecting that others are projecting;)

arguing about things we don't know yet, why do i never see arguments from certain people in threads that claim chemical imbalances as facts?

the fact is while meds are great for a lot of people , this fizzle out for a very large group that isn't included in studies, meds are great for people at the beginning but are rarely successful on their own forever

yet, some have an idea that science has proven otherwise , due to a "disease" model, thats incorrect

ginniebean
05-24-14, 01:12 PM
Dave? Why am I in a group? What evidence can you bring forward that has changed what are now best practices?

I don't argue genetics it's ******* boring. I don't argue chemical imbalance I think it's ridiculous and vague. So WHY am I part of some group?

This us vs them is horse ****.

Your explanation of the current state of knowledge is over-simplified to the point of saying adhd as a disorder is built upon total garbage and we can't REALLY know if it's real or not. Why not invite all the anti-psychiatry nuts here and not even bother calling it a support group for adhd because we know NOTHING.


And seriously is it a mission NOT to discuss the present state of research? Do alternatives just not get discussed enough? My questions ARE legitimate. My questions deserve a real hearing.

Shoving people into us vs them is ruining this section. It makes people stay away.

Gross over simplification of the research to date supports who?

ginniebean
05-24-14, 01:41 PM
here is my question,, science has shown adhd is a group of symptoms that occur together , and if a family member has it, you may or may not have it

thats all

That's all? How on earth was adhd declared a syndrome? Because 20k+ studies can be condensed into "that's all".



no one here has argued any of those facts ever

Because there is no need to argue. All people need to say and have said over and over is "we acknowledge that what we know is incomplete but this is the best evidence to date. What more can be said? What more needs to be said?

Why can't the people pushing alternatives admit that they don't know and they don't have enough evidence to cause any form of paradigm shift? It appears honesty only goes one way.



the fact is while meds are great for a lot of people , this fizzle out for a very large group that isn't included in studies, meds are great for people at the beginning but are rarely successful on their own forever

When you can show with direct and confirmed evidence that alternatives work then they will be incorporated. What the hell does this have to do with BARKLEY?


yet, some have an idea that science has proven otherwise , due to a "disease" model, thats incorrect



Is that it? We can't have one thread in two years not derailed because you charge with the dismissive, oversimplified, and hostile label of "disease model"? Once again, labelling those who aren't emotionally invested in the SAME things as being pro disease model is word play designed to invent a defensive position That doesn't even exist. Can we put away the intellectually dishonest rhetoric, the emotional investment, the undermining attitudes and have a discussion that'a not absurd for once?

Barkley has stated adhd is a developmental disability that is largely of genetic causation, that there is a large social component that affects how people function. He does so based on the present state of research.

This is NOT just about meds this is about information and this information war is STUPID.


Overturn the paradigm or admit we don't know enough yet. Turning up the volume by making the most threads and shutting down any other conversation is not credible and I have no idea why it would be desirable.

What do you have to say about Barkley?

ginniebean
05-24-14, 01:54 PM
Dave, you know I have trouble with tone. I don't think we need to get snippy with each other. It's not my intention to attack you personally, ideas tho are fair game imo. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Dizfriz
05-24-14, 03:05 PM
here is my question,, science has shown adhd is a group of symptoms that occur together , and if a family member has it, you may or may not have it

thats all

no one here has argued any of those facts ever

mybe its your group thats projecting that others are projecting;)
Dave, this doesn't make much sense. Of course if a family member is ADHD then other members may or may not be ADHD. The fact that is relevant is the if a family member is ADHD then other family members have a greater chance of being ADHD, otherwise you are describing something that is self evident.


arguing about things we don't know yet, why do i never see arguments from certain people in threads that claim chemical imbalances as facts? I am not sure what you are talking about. Could you expand on the chemical imbalance issue a little.

the fact is while meds are great for a lot of people , this fizzle out for a very large group that isn't included in studies, I have to call you on that one. How do you know this? What is the large group not included in studies. How do you know about them if they are not included.

meds are great for people at the beginning but are rarely successful on their own forever I have seen evidence both ways on this. The jury still seems to be out on this.

yet, some have an idea that science has proven otherwise , due to a "disease" model, thats incorrectAgain, I am not sure what you mean here. Could you explain a little.

Dizfriz

Dizfriz
05-24-14, 03:11 PM
Dave, coming late to this discussion.

It appears that meditation or mindfulness training is useful for some who are ADHD. This research is mostly fairly new and looks quite promising but is it is not an universal palliative. It is very unlikely that it will work for all or even most.

There is a lot more research to be done on this and the results so far are positive but tentative.

If you try to advocate it for everyone, you will run into problems. What we know right now is that medication is the most powerful treatment we have for ADHD in terms of success but it is not appropriate for everyone.

That is where we are at right now.

Dizfriz

sarek
05-24-14, 03:39 PM
Here is a mod note on general principles. The thread is about Barkley, lets stick reasonably close to that topic.

psychopathetic
05-24-14, 04:36 PM
I know this reply is strictly off topic.

Ginnie...I just want to say that that (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1651758&postcount=86) was a fantastic post! Well thought out, well worded and very honest.

(((JellyBeans)))

...carry on!
:p

daveddd
05-24-14, 05:13 PM
Dave? Why am I in a group? What evidence can you bring forward that has changed what are now best practices?

I don't argue genetics it's ******* boring. I don't argue chemical imbalance I think it's ridiculous and vague. So WHY am I part of some group?

This us vs them is horse ****.

Your explanation of the current state of knowledge is over-simplified to the point of saying adhd as a disorder is built upon total garbage and we can't REALLY know if it's real or not. Why not invite all the anti-psychiatry nuts here and not even bother calling it a support group for adhd because we know NOTHING.


And seriously is it a mission NOT to discuss the present state of research? Do alternatives just not get discussed enough? My questions ARE legitimate. My questions deserve a real hearing.

Shoving people into us vs them is ruining this section. It makes people stay away.

Gross over simplification of the research to date supports who?

who wants to change the best current research?

or methods

meds are fine or good for some, for a lot of people they lose effectiveness or can't be taken

and the science is the best current therapy is mindfulness based therapies

thats the facts

i can't help you guys aren't up to date with current research in psychology


that doesn't mean I'm making this stuff up

ask any professional

daveddd
05-24-14, 05:26 PM
Dave, this doesn't make much sense. Of course if a family member is ADHD then other members may or may not be ADHD. The fact that is relevant is the if a family member is ADHD then other family members have a greater chance of being ADHD, otherwise you are describing something that is self evident.


I am not sure what you are talking about. Could you expand on the chemical imbalance issue a little.

I have to call you on that one. How do you know this? What is the large group not included in studies. How do you know about them if they are not included.

I have seen evidence both ways on this. The jury still seems to be out on this.

Again, I am not sure what you mean here. Could you explain a little.

Dizfriz

the not included stuff was a mistake

i meant studies are short term, so long term effectiveness isn't included in the studies

ginniebean
05-24-14, 05:37 PM
Dave, I am completely at a loss here. If the evidence was there treatment protocols would change.


Many psychologists are hostile to the idea of adhd as a developmental disability. Refusing to even read the evidence as presented. Just because someone is a psychologist doesn't make them know what they are talking about.

If they had the evidence they could bring it and if it was replicable it would be accepted. That's how it works and you are surely aware of this.

I'm scratching my head here wondering how does it come to this. I don't understand.

peripatetic
05-24-14, 07:41 PM
In my frantic research on ADHD that has been going on since, perhaps, September last year, I have been watching various speakers on YouTube who specialize in ADHD. The one whom I've been most impressed with, who strikes me as really knowing what he's talking about and is not trying to appeal to anyone, is Russell Barkley. Does anyone have any thoughts on his work? Does anyone have suggestions on others to watch/read? I don't mind hearing criticisms of Barkley's work, as I suspect there are.

moderator note

This is the topic of this thread

ANY further posts on other topics will mean the thread gets closed.

daveddd
05-24-14, 08:26 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=TS6pgND1xdoC&pg=PA28&dq=barkley,+homunculus&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1Jt-U4_nJtOLqgb24oKoBA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=barkley%2C%20homunculus&f=false


great couple pages by barkley

a quote from barkley resonates with me well

"cognitive neuropshycologys view of humanity is frankly not worth having" russell barkley[/QUOTE]

i did say something about barkley

daveddd
05-24-14, 08:31 PM
i actually think what he says is misrepresented quite a bit

ginnie , you continually ask why can't we talk about current adhd research

most current adhd research (that is actually getting somewhere ) is on emotional dysregulations role and how much more important it is , and maybe thats its even causative for executive function

mildadhd
05-24-14, 10:37 PM
i actually think what he says is misrepresented quite a bit

ginnie , you continually ask why can't we talk about current adhd research

most current adhd research (that is actually getting somewhere ) is on emotional dysregulations role and how much more important it is , and maybe thats its even causative for executive function

Self regulation and executive function, ( higher) systems, are the same things.

P

daveddd
05-24-14, 10:39 PM
"Once again, labeling those who aren't emotionally invested in the SAME things as being pro disease model is word play designed to invent a defensive position"

i agree, i apologize for that, its immature ill discontinue using it

it started after time and time again of watching a select few accuse anyone of speaking of something that wasn't in line with there view, " blaming the parents"

even if it clearly wasn't , it got incredibly frustrating

daveddd
05-24-14, 10:42 PM
Self regulation and executive function are the same thing.

P

its tricking

executive function involves planning and organizing for future goals

can they all be broken or does one influence the rest

Fortune
05-24-14, 11:30 PM
Emotional dysregulation and ADHD are not the same thing.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=1827806

They overlap, but ADHD and emotional dysregulation correlate but are not the same thing. The two together are an entity distinct from both ADHD and emotional dysregulation.

mildadhd
05-24-14, 11:55 PM
The mature brain works together as a whole.

There are 3 major sections:

-lower brain stem/lower limbic subcortical areas (primary level of control)

-middle/upper limbic areas (secondary level of control)

-higher neocortical areas (tertiary level of control)

(These topics are complex, which level of control being discussed is very important to specify, there are times when people disagree, and both people could are right, the difference being, they are talking about different levels of control and different ages/stages in development.)


its tricking

executive function involves planning and organizing for future goals

can they all be broken or does one influence the rest


It depends on what level of control and age/stage of development being discussed.


Example

I don't think Dr.Barkley is wrong, if we are discussing top-down regulation involving in tertiary and secondary levels of control after the age of 4*.

But I think there is a lot more to orgin and treatment of ADHD, than top-down, tertiary and secondary levels of control, and psychological development after the age of 4*


Now we can begin to see a potential relationship between EF and self regulation, because they share a similar if not identical definition.

Both involve goal-directed, future-oriented actions...

...Working memory and problem-solving in fact are the ways people typically mentally represent and manipulate information that is being held in our mind (using images and words). In short, we use the various EFs for self-regulation to attain goals (alter future consequences): EF = SR.



http://www.russellbarkley.org/factsheets/ADHD_EF_and_SR.pdf



P

daveddd
05-25-14, 12:02 AM
Emotional dysregulation and ADHD are not the same thing.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=1827806

They overlap, but ADHD and emotional dysregulation correlate but are not the same thing. The two together are an entity distinct from both ADHD and emotional dysregulation.

claryfying

are you saying adhd with emotional dysregulaion is different completely from adhd without it

i can see that, with the former being more common with the latter

ginniebean
05-25-14, 12:06 AM
I think emotional dysregulation doesn't always mean the same thing. And talking about it in global ways is counter-productive.

mildadhd
05-25-14, 12:11 AM
Emotional dysregulation and ADHD are not the same thing.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=1827806

They overlap, but ADHD and emotional dysregulation correlate but are not the same thing. The two together are an entity distinct from both ADHD and emotional dysregulation.

Note: If you are referring to my post, I wrote...

Self regulation and executive function, (higher) systems, are the same thing.

SR = EF

-Dr.Barkley

http://www.russellbarkley.org/factsheets/ADHD_EF_and_SR.pdf

Fortune
05-25-14, 12:31 AM
Nah, Peripheral. I wasn't.

Barkley's presented executive dysfunction as a self-regulation issue for several years now.

daveddd
05-25-14, 02:28 AM
according to barkley it seems without emotional dysregulation you are more likely to grow out of adhd

and with it its more impairing than the traditional symptoms
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20431470

mildadhd
05-25-14, 04:43 AM
according to barkley it seems without emotional dysregulation you are more likely to grow out of adhd

and with it its more impairing than the traditional symptoms
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20431470


That's because ADHD is primarily emotional, developed from the ground up.

Primary emotions are more mature than higher self regulation systems at birth.

Like Dr.Barkley, Dr. Shaw's research (as far as I can tell) consider emotions during secondary and tertiary levels of control.

But do not consider the primary levels of control, that secondary and tertiary levels of control are built upon.

If they did they would see that ADHD is primarily emotional.


P

mildadhd
05-25-14, 05:04 AM
Hello Peripheral,

Thanks for responding, but I don't quite understand what you're saying. In the speeches I've listened to, he's talked about the emotions of those with ADHD. And in terms of his theories, he does seem to base what he says on loads of evidence, from the research of others and his own.



The emotions involved in ADHD orginate, from the complex unconditioned emotional responses.

I am not disagreeing with top-down theories except to say they are missing the ground up core emotional systems, that they are primarily built upon.

I can't find much in deepth information from Dr.Barkley about emotions at the primary levels of control or early psychological development from the ground-up.

But without the primary emotion levels of control, emotions at the secondary and tertiary levels would not exist.




P

Dizfriz
05-25-14, 08:29 AM
The emotions involved in ADHD orginate, from the complex unconditioned emotional responses.

I am not disagreeing with top-down theories except to say they are missing the ground up core emotional systems, that they are primarily built upon.

I can't find much in deepth information from Dr.Barkley about emotions at the primary levels of control or early psychological development from the ground-up.

But without the primary emotion levels of control, emotions at the secondary and tertiary levels would not exist.




P

But how does this involve ADHD?

Dizfriz

peripatetic
05-25-14, 08:50 AM
moderator note

As I said, this thread needs to be appropriate to topic and check the section. This is not the place to discuss ADHD as executive function or emotional regulation.

There are other sections for such discussions and all of you know where they are.

Cheers but thread is now closed.