View Full Version : Another Delightful Article Posted on Facebook


willow129
04-09-14, 08:53 PM
Look at this utter crap.

http://themindunleashed.org/2013/11/nonconformity-and-freethinking-now.html

Posted by a friend of mine (who has a doctorate!! Just saying, she is smart) who I really do enjoy and agree with on many things.
(Her description of it talked about how people are diagnosed and medicated for nonexistent conditions, and this threatens people who actually have mental illness because it makes people think mental illness is imaginary.)

And then a lot of crap responses from people (like someone who posted this, supposed to be a quote of the article: "New mental illnesses .... include ... above-average creativity,.... there are treatments available.")

Here's my response: "Freethinking and non conformity are NOT the diagnostic criteria for ODD. Wow. I really disagree with this article.......agh. OK

No. I have to say more. What exactly is their definition of "new"? ODD has been studied/researched since at least 1992. - Oh no I correct myself, it first appeared in diagnostic manuals in 1980! - To be diagnosed with ODD children must show at least 4 out of 8 symptoms in 2 places in their lives (school and other social venues). Something is considered a disorder if the symptoms are NEGATIVELY impacting your life. If they are not negatively impacting you, it's not a disorder. Since we all agree that free thinking and non conformity are not really bad things, it must follow that that's NOT what these kids are struggling with. Where does ODD come from? We don't really know. Could it be partially environmental? Yeah I believe that. Many of these kids (but not all!) come from ABSOLUTELY HORRID home lives. In addition their parents probably also have some mental illnesses too, so there's also probably a biological factor there. Are these parents being treated for their problems? Probably not! Why are they not treated? Because people **** on the idea of mental illness or research on mental illness constantly.

OK....I may regret having written this but I find this article to be extremely unhelpful and negative. This kind of thing does not help people get help who need it."

Then she responded asking if I had read her description above the article (paraphrased above) and then said that she most certainly would have been diagnosed with ADHD/ODD in second grade (ODD - not from what I have seen of kids who actually have this and comparing her to them) and had that been the case she wouldn't have made it through high school.

I said:
"Yes I read your comment. Are you saying that ODD is nonexistent? I mean I agree with what you're getting at about misdiagnoses and stuff, that is dangerous. But this article is incorrect and misleading, and many people here are reading it and believing what it says.

And again, a disorder is only classified as such if the - we'll call them symptoms for lack of a better word - impact your life in a NEGATIVE way. If you or anyone else share similarities to these criteria but are not impacted NEGATIVELY by your similarities, you do not have a mental disorder. People are diagnosed with mental disorders usually because they are seeking help for them. Many people actually do commit suicide because they have not received help for things like ADHD or others."

OK tell me your thoughts/correct me on any information that I have that is incorrect :)

willow129
04-12-14, 03:37 PM
I love that .... so a bunch of people posted in response to this article about how we're crushing creative thinking and some people said we are acting like soviet russia and drugging anyone who thinks outside the box and ODD doesn't exist and all this....and then I posted and that pretty much killed the conversation. No one replied to what I said to defend their thinking at all. Which tells me they are all misinformed/ignorant/no clue or experience in what they're talking about...and when someone actually tries to give an informed rebuttal they have nothing to say...
SO FRUSTRATING that they express their opinions at all then, as if they know what they're talking about!!!

Fuzzy12
04-12-14, 07:40 PM
People just like to rant. They don't want to explain their rants. Is Much more fun sharing your half baked opinions when there s no one to challenge Or question them. That would require thinking and thinking isn't as much fun as spouting ignorant rubbish.

willow129
04-12-14, 11:29 PM
yeah.

...I like to rant too

Ganjin
04-14-14, 10:19 PM
Although I share your sense of irritation with an article like that, which dismisses a lot of people's very serious troubles as nothing more than a fantasy.... I actually think there's a specter of truth behind that article.

The trouble with using 'treatment' to make all the disfunctional people become functional is that it so often avoids what made us disfunctional in the first place. For example, looking at ADHD alone, the CDC now estimates that 11% of children aged 4-17 have been diagnosed as ADHD. These kids are being labeled with a "disorder" that requires intervention and correction. But how could a medical disorder ever be that common across the population?

11%? How is that possible? What we have defined as a "disorder" is beginning to look just plain normal. ADHD diagnosis is now more common than being left handed. How can we explain this high frequency, which appears to be on an arc toward ever higher levels?

The easy answer to a lot of folks is that this is psycho-babble gone wild. I don't think that's exactly true, but I can see why a lot of people think that.

sarahsweets
04-15-14, 04:31 AM
The trouble with using 'treatment' to make all the disfunctional people become functional is that it so often avoids what made us disfunctional in the first place. For example, looking at ADHD alone, the CDC now estimates that 11% of children aged 4-17 have been diagnosed as ADHD. These kids are being labeled with a "disorder" that requires intervention and correction. But how could a medical disorder ever be that common across the population?

Many people say that the prevalence of diagnosis is because of awareness. When I was 6 and diagnosed it was called an "attentive issue", thats what the doctors told my parents. Something without a name doesnt exist right?

11%? How is that possible? What we have defined as a "disorder" is beginning to look just plain normal. ADHD diagnosis is now more common than being left handed. How can we explain this high frequency, which appears to be on an arc toward ever higher levels?
Can you please cite some specific sources to back this up? Just because something seems true doesnt mean it actually is.

The easy answer to a lot of folks is that this is psycho-babble gone wild. I don't think that's exactly true, but I can see why a lot of people think that.
The old "psycho-babble" interpretation is often what is thrown in at the last measure to explain what people cant understand. If you cant see any physical symptoms and you see a quack shrink then it must be psycho-babble right?

stef
04-15-14, 05:47 AM
How can anyone not understand the difference between "non-conformist" and ODD???

Or maybe it's just me - ODD would be just opposing any authority - like a reflex;
but non-conformist, is more like challenging things, based on opinions, beliefs, isn't it...?

willow129
04-15-14, 07:23 AM
Yeah Stef, I have taught kids who have ODD and it's like...defiance ALL the time and also expressed with a lot more anger than most kids, also sometimes manipulation

I mean, I think sometimes with those kids when they feel uncomfortable that's how they lash out.

I wouldn't describe ODD kids as nonconformist...it doesn't hit the mark

This article is written by someone who has NO experience with ODD, that's why they're freaking out about it, they've never seen it before (so it couldn't possibly exist!)

Ganjin hmmm I wonder how many people get diagnosed with depression...I feel that must be similar to the number of people who are diagnosed with ADHD...

daveddd
04-15-14, 07:29 AM
Yeah Stef, I have taught kids who have ODD and it's like...defiance ALL the time and also expressed with a lot more anger than most kids, also sometimes manipulation

I mean, I think sometimes with those kids when they feel uncomfortable that's how they lash out.

I wouldn't describe ODD kids as nonconformist...it doesn't hit the mark

This article is written by someone who has NO experience with ODD, that's why they're freaking out about it, they've never seen it before (so it couldn't possibly exist!)

Ganjin hmmm I wonder how many people get diagnosed with depression...I feel that must be similar to the number of people who are diagnosed with ADHD...

i believe depression and anxiety are in the 20-30% range of the population

Ganjin
04-15-14, 09:02 AM
Can you please cite some specific sources to back this up? Just because something seems true doesnt mean it actually is.


Hi Sarah, here's a link to the CDC study from 2013 estimating 11% diagnosis of ADHD in school age kids in the US:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/features/key-findings-adhd72013.html

Note that it's a steep increase from previous studies. Of course, maybe the rate of positive diagnoses will now level off at the present rate, but there's no doubt that the rate has risen sharply in the last decade.

Ganjin
04-15-14, 09:09 AM
How can anyone not understand the difference between "non-conformist" and ODD???

Or maybe it's just me - ODD would be just opposing any authority - like a reflex;
but non-conformist, is more like challenging things, based on opinions, beliefs, isn't it...?

I've only read about ODD; I've never personally known children who were diagnosed with it. But I assume it's like ADHD in that it manifests in a wide spectrum of severity. If that's true, then I'm sure there must be quite a few borderline cases where it's not absolutely clear whether you're dealing with an extremely rebellious kid or one who fits the diagnosis. Looking at the checklist of symptoms, I think it's possible that a clinician could have diagnosed me with ODD when I was kid. I have had lifelong problems with authority. I am deeply suspicious of people in positions of power (every last one of them lol).

In these spectrum disorders you see so much variation at the margins. That always leaves room for the accusations of over-diagnosis and fuels the charges of all of this stuff being a "myth."

Ganjin
04-15-14, 09:21 AM
i believe depression and anxiety are in the 20-30% range of the population

That percentage would not surprise me at all. In short, we are living in an epidemic of "mental illness". That should give us all pause to consider how/why that should be.

I don't claim to have any answers, and I spend most of my energy just trying to live my own life as best as I can. But as an anthropologist, I am always drawn back to a few fundamental facts:

1. Modern humans have existed as a species for 200-300 thousand years.
2. Most human populations were organized in small bands of mobile hunter-gatherers until just 2-4 thousand years ago.
3. We have lived in urbanized industrial states just about 150-200 years.

Given those facts, I find it unsurprising that we would struggle in these new conditions. But I digress too much. A mod is likely to point out that threads already exist on related topics.

My main point for this thread is simply that I share some of the skepticism in that article linked by the OP. But the conclusion drawn from that skepticism in the article is only one possible conclusion. The balancing act is in embracing the healthy skepticism while challenging simplistic and uneducated conclusions.

hurricane92
04-15-14, 03:56 PM
LIFE is crazy, people are just varied. You can't set up a series of overlapping social, political, and economic systems to cram 7 billion social animals into and expect to have better results than how we're doing today. We went way too far, we got WAY too good at survival. This stuff is all just a side effect of trying to find a way to compete with other predators for survival. They got claws and teeth, we got brains. And our brains do us alot of good, but this is some of the bad. I believe in love, travel, expression and exploration, and drugs. Those things keep me happy, fulfilled, sane, and always learning.

willow129
04-16-14, 05:14 PM
I like your anthropological conclusions Ganjin. Very interesting! I have thought similar things but without the actual knowledge you have.

I understand skepticism about these things...we should question ourselves, so we can keep learning. And I think we should be exploring lots of different kinds of treatments.

But I think those two things, learning about mental health/illnesses and treatments for them, require research. I think we need lots more research. But research doesn't happen if people don't support the idea that it needs to be done, or that there's even a problem! I guess my main complaint with this article (you guys can tell me if you agree or not or what you think) and other articles that I wish people writing them would be more sensitive of, is that it seems like it's just saying ODD doesn't exist, these kids don't have problems, we're medicating (and families aren't even necessarily choosing medication as treatment but this article seems to think so) people for no reason. So I think there's just this horribly negative, unsupportive tone throughout the whole thing.

And just as a side-note, ON TOP of that, my friend on facebook who posted it also talked about over diagnosis or misdiagnoses threatens treatment of people who have mental illnesses because it makes people believe mental illness doesn't exist, which was just SO IRONIC to me considering that the article is basically saying ODD doesn't exist. And then she had a bunch of friends chiming in and agreeing. It's like...YOU'RE the ones who are claiming that things don't exist!! What a bizarre Catch-22. Do you get what I'm saying? These people claim to be supportive who are actually ACTIVELY UNsupportive just by passing this article on.

**breathe**

Ganjin
04-17-14, 02:06 PM
I guess my main complaint with this article (you guys can tell me if you agree or not or what you think) and other articles that I wish people writing them would be more sensitive of, is that it seems like it's just saying ODD doesn't exist, these kids don't have problems, we're medicating (and families aren't even necessarily choosing medication as treatment but this article seems to think so) people for no reason. So I think there's just this horribly negative, unsupportive tone throughout the whole thing.

Yes, I agree completely. There are good reasons to question the traditional "medical pathology model" for ADHD and probably a lot of other things. But it seems that the writer of the article (and your friend who posted it) take these questions immediately to the conclusion that there's no real problem. We're fabricating a problem. The subtext is that those who suffer with these so-called "problems" really just need to suck it up and move on.

That's a nice, easy, comfortable answer for a lot of people. But that answer is facile, and ignores the huge body of evidence that there ARE PEOPLE SUFFERING BADLY with these symptoms. If they could just "suck it up", they would.

Ganjin
04-17-14, 02:08 PM
And just as a side-note, ON TOP of that, my friend on facebook who posted it also talked about over diagnosis or misdiagnoses threatens treatment of people who have mental illnesses because it makes people believe mental illness doesn't exist, which was just SO IRONIC to me considering that the article is basically saying ODD doesn't exist. And then she had a bunch of friends chiming in and agreeing. It's like...YOU'RE the ones who are claiming that things don't exist!! What a bizarre Catch-22. Do you get what I'm saying? These people claim to be supportive who are actually ACTIVELY UNsupportive just by passing this article on.

**breathe**

Lmao. Yes, I see the irony. Some people have the luxury of being living proof of their own theory. It must be a comfortable place to live.