View Full Version : 7 Complex Uncondtioned Emotional Responses (C.U.E.R)


mildadhd
04-12-14, 04:16 PM
i!i


7 Complex Unconditioned Emotional Responses (C.U.E.R) (Primary Processes Part 1)


I want to discuss and understand all the Affective Neuroscientific specific terms and functions, in the two charts below, from the ground up, with any people

interested in learning the affective terms. (if you are not interested, please make another thread)


Side Note: I would like to discuss secondary processes (learning) and tertiary specific terms and functions separately, in two other threads, respectively ( 3 part series of threads)

This thread is meant to focus on complex unconditioned emotional responses, primary processes, genetic instincts, only.

(please keep any secondary and tertiary topics/discussion, general, and in regards to understanding primary processes)




http://www.ploscollections.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0021236.g005&representation=PNG_M




***




http://www.ploscollections.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0021236.g003&representation=PNG_M

http://www.ploscollections.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021236;jsessi onid=AD13490132E599FB6413BDA3EB45FF87


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mildadhd
04-12-14, 05:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65e2qScV_K8

mildadhd
04-12-14, 08:40 PM
Principal Findings



The relevant lines of evidence are as follows:


1) It is easy to elicit powerful unconditioned emotional responses using localized electrical stimulation of the brain (ESB); these effects are concentrated in

ancient subcortical brain regions.

Seven types of emotional arousals have been described; using a special capitalized nomenclature for such primary process emotional systems,

they are SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, PANIC/GRIEF and PLAY.


2) These brain circuits are situated in homologous subcortical brain regions in all vertebrates tested.

Thus, if one activates FEAR arousal circuits in rats, cats or primates, all exhibit similar fear responses.


3) All primary-process emotional-instinctual urges, even ones as complex as social PLAY, remain intact after radical neo-decortication early in life; thus,

the neocortex is not essential for the generation of primary-process emotionality.


4) Using diverse measures, one can demonstrate that animals like and dislike ESB of brain regions that evoke unconditioned instinctual emotional behaviors:

Such ESBs can serve as ‘rewards’ and ‘punishments’ in diverse approach and escape/avoidance learning tasks.


5) Comparable ESB of human brains yield comparable affective experiences.

Thus, robust evidence indicates that raw primary-process (i.e., instinctual, unconditioned) emotional behaviors and feelings emanate from homologous brain

functions in all mammals (see Appendix S1), which are regulated by higher brain regions.

Such findings suggest nested-hierarchies of BrainMind affective processing, with primal emotional functions being foundational for secondary-process learning and

memory mechanisms, which interface with tertiary-process cognitive-thoughtful functions of the BrainMind.



http://www.ploscollections.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021236;jsessi onid=AD13490132E599FB6413BDA3EB45FF87


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mildadhd
04-12-14, 08:48 PM
Periaqueductal gray matter (PAG)


(also see OP chart, "Key Brain Areas")

..the primary-process networks for emotional instincts run from midbrain periaqueductal gray (PAG) regions to medial diencephalon to various basal ganglia

nuclei (amygdala, bed nucleus of the stria terminalis, nucleus accumbens, etc) that interact with paleocortical brain functions (eg, cingulate, insular, as well as

medial- and orbitofrontal cortices) and more indirectly with certain neocortical regions to provide integration with higher cognitive activities. The subcortical locus

of affect generation strongly suggests that the foundational principles of human emotions can be understood by studying these brain structures and functions in

other animals.9

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181986/


http://brainmind.com/images/periaqueductal300.gif




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mildadhd
04-14-14, 07:27 PM
"A few years before Olds's untimely passing, Panksepp had discussed the EXPECTANCY/SEEKING hypothesis with him, on a flight to Europe, and he had been intrigued,

noting how his electrophysiology work was consistent with that idea.


("The Archaeology of Mind, The SEEKING System [summary] (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1611277#post1611277)")



Also see thread: THE SEEKING SYSTEM AND A SENSE OF TIME (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1613053#post1613053)





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mildadhd
04-14-14, 07:46 PM
"People and animals (and possibly birds) are born with these emotions--they don't learn them from their mothers or from the environment--and

neuroscientists know a fair amount about how they work inside the brain."



-Temple Grandin/Catherine Johnson: "Animals Make Us Human", (Chapter 1, What Do Animals Need?), P 5.



Also See:

The Blue-Ribbon Emotions (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1635863&postcount=39)

Pigs in Disneyland (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1633006#post1633006)


(Side Note: Temple Grandin Movie also Highly Recommended)



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SB_UK
04-26-14, 09:35 AM
PAGhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pain
Research suggests that physical pain and psychological pain may share some underlying neurological mechanisms.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pain#cite_note-21)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pain#cite_note-mee_2006-22)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pain#cite_note-23)[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pain#cite_note-meerwijk_2012-24) Brain regions that were consistently found to be implicated in both types of pain are the anterior cingulate cortex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cingulate_cortex) and prefrontal cortex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex).

PFC reward system -> selfish

ACC reward system -> social
^
|
With mind (wisdom) / ADHD

PFC reward system in charge -> pain if contravene selfish reward system

-*-

Reward -> Dopamine (cocaine)
Pain -> Endorphin (morphine/heroin)

WikiP/speedball -> incredible high from -> simultaneous activation of pleasure + pain
So - attaining some sort of simultaneous activation of pleasure and pain sounds like an idea.

Except we have to do it without drugs.

Sun
heat -> SNS (male archetype ie speed up)
The sympathetic nervous system responds to environmental heat in another important way.
http://www.ndrf.org/ans.html
UV -> Endorphins (female archetype ie slow down)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2290997/

-*-

PFC reward system - dumb - don't compete - it's pointless.
ACC reward system - having to spend one's time worrying about other people - nice - but a lot of effort.

Best case scenario.

[1] Fair world ensuring that all people are happy.
Then leave them to it whilst: we wikiP/speedball from simply heat/UV in the sun.

SB_UK
04-26-14, 09:59 AM
Except we have to do it without drugs.

Sun
heat -> SNS (male archetype ie speed up)
http://www.ndrf.org/ans.html
UV -> Endorphins (female archetype ie slow down)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2290997/

Best case scenario.

[1] Fair world ensuring that all people are happy.
Then leave them to it whilst: we wikiP/speedball from simply heat/UV in the sun.

...

you would not believe the intensity of dopamine chills I get from relatively intense sun/heat

It's a really neat solution.
'reward' (bliss) from nothing more than life in the sun.

SB_UK
04-26-14, 04:10 PM
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ana.410040511/abstract
This system can be activated by opiate administration or by electrical stimulation of discrete brainstem sites. Evidence is presented that its pain-suppressing action is mediated in part by endogenous opiatelike compounds (endorphins).

This pain suppression system is organized at three levels of the neuraxis: midbrain, medulla, and spinal cord. Activation of neurons in the midbrain periaqueductal gray matter (by electrical stimulation, opiates, and possibly psychological factors) ...


source (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=aRsjKWpT93IC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=Plasma+beta-endorphin+levels+in+frequent+and+infrequent+tanner s+before+and+after+ultraviolet+and+non-ultraviolet+stimuli.&source=bl&ots=xOwlTMZZXq&sig=tA46j-Ig43wsJJM1XeTOI0Vd_1g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rA5cU6H0IIWjPfTTgNgO&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Plasma%20beta-endorphin%20levels%20in%20frequent%20and%20infrequ ent%20tanners%20before%20and%20after%20ultraviolet %20and%20non-ultraviolet%20stimuli.&f=false)
http://www.addforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1496&pictureid=11946

-*-

As simple as that ?

From chemical (morphine/cocaine) to solar activation of our reward system.

http://www.drdobbin.co.uk/sunlight-vitamin-d
What sunlight does?
Boost serotonin / dopamine

SB_UK
04-27-14, 02:53 AM
The problem we've had with UV - is that we haven't gone outside (because we all have to stay inside boxes doing something pointless for money between 9 and 5pm) ie used UV generated b-endorphin's mu opioid suppression of high fat / high carb (50:50 ratio (http://www.dietdoctor.com/sugar-vs-fat-on-bbc-which-is-worse))
- we know that (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53528/):
Naloxone had less effect on foods that were high in either sugar or fat than on foods that contained both ...
- and we know that psychosocial stress drives rats to seek out morphine (Peripheral's Rat Park (http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comics_en/rat-park/)).

ps - why do people always look to retire to a 'place in the sun ?'

-*-

So - we have a connection between psychosocial stress (money/hierarchy which relates to the PFC reward system) and disease.
Distress is increased in ACC reward system individuals (nonADDer wisdom, ADDer) since there's no reward from life in a society where we MUST worship money/hierarchy in order to survive - resulting in stress.

Distress -> leads to -> SNS resistance, Cortisol resistance, Chronic pain -> leads to -> all diseases.

Fundamental correction - we need a moral landscape (no money/law) and to be able to exercise in the sun - to prevent:
SNS resistance, Cortisol resistance, Chronic pain -> leads to -> all diseases

-*-

So ... ... 'material world attachment' (PFC reward system) is the basis to all suffering (of which a notable part are the diseases of Western living)
- and is overcome by ADDer/nonADDer alike simply by cultivating the ACC reward system ie doing the right thing.

PFC -> selfish reward system -> overcome
ACC -> social reward system develop towards pair-bond formation / wisdom
Thereafter
Sun -> sufficient activation of our reward system.

SB_UK
04-27-14, 03:06 AM
It's important to note that nobody's able to do anything of any use until reward system activation (PFC naturally, but ACC too) is no longer required.
IE wisdom state acquired.
As you no longer have a vested interest.

And so are free to express the most rational (moral) approach to ANY given problem.

What people do prior to wisdom is overcomplicate systems which they then gain from.

Fine for them - terrible for everybody else.

A recipe for social collapse - which is what is occurring right now - out there - in dumbo processed pop singer meets crotchless professional footballer world.

SB_UK
04-29-14, 07:11 AM
pag

ACC reward system use + mind tending/attained morality in immoral society -> chronic pain via PAG -> chronic beta-endorphin production -> opiate tolerance

ie exact same mechanism as observed in drug addicts who need more and more heroin.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v37/n2/full/npp2011155a.html

That's ironic - sensitivity to immorality results in the individual who is sensitive - becoming more and more disabled by life experience.

So - morality engaging enforcedly in immoral behaviours (money + material world attachments) operating at the level of the grand orchestrator - beta-endorphin -> leads to -> endogenous opiate resistance
- and this is ADD !!

Chronic pain.
Chronic tiredness.
Chronic low energy.
Chronic low levels of arousal.

Resistance in the endogenous opiate system.

How do we reverse resistance syndromes ?
Stop the pain.

How - by eliminating the use of money in society.

SB_UK
04-29-14, 07:57 AM
http://chronicfatigue.about.com/b/2013/02/13/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-adhd-whats-the-link.htm
Researchers concluded that ADHD and ME/CFS may share a common underlying mechanism, and that over time, ADHD may develop into a syndrome chronic fatigue and pain. (It's unclear whether this would most appropriately be considered a new form of ADHD or a subset of ME/CFS.)Adding ME/CFS to the disease list on the other thread.

It's like being in a chronic state of cold turkey.

Anhedonia is the word.

ADHD / tiredness / CFS all respond to dexedrine.
Anhedonia - stimulant resistance through persistent activation of the 'fight/flight' mechanism through living in a global society which is immorally constructed.

Increase in inequality - and not tendency towards material world equality as necessary platform for individual creativity in informational (music,computer animation)/non-limiting realms (sport,gardening).

SB_UK
04-29-14, 08:28 AM
So - Dominant reward system

---------> MIND DEVELOPMENT --------->ACC
---------> MIND DEVELOPMENT --------->
PFC


'Distress' -> 'fight or flight' reaction increases as mind builds towards morality (whether ADDer or nonADDer) or if ADDer and customised only to the ACC reward system.

Chronic distress ->leads to->


endogenous SNS resistance (eg asthma treatment +SNS, -PNS),
endogenous Cortisol resistance (eg asthma treatment +steroid)
endogenous Opiate (b-endorphin) resistance (eg fat/sugar diet attraction in the global T2D/Obesity epidemic).

SNS resistance - we slow down
Cortisol resistance - we lose inflammatory control
b-endorphin resistance - we become sensitive to pain

-> ADD

SB_UK
04-29-14, 10:02 AM
Chronic distress ->leads to->


endogenous SNS resistance (eg asthma treatment +SNS, -PNS),
endogenous Cortisol resistance (eg asthma treatment +steroid)
endogenous Opiate (b-endorphin) resistance (eg fat/sugar diet attraction in the global T2D/Obesity epidemic).



Sun exposure


Heat -> SNS activation (vasodilation)
UV -> POMC expression (ACTH -> cortisol
and
b-endorphin -> opiate)

Eliminate money and then in a fair global system and with an internal neuroendocrine system which is optimally sensitive, activate our key reward systems through sun exposure ?

SB_UK
04-29-14, 10:10 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17575400
"The heat exposure (.... 35 degrees C) induced activation of the sympathetic nervous system and a withdrawal of the parasympathetic nervous system."
Sun bathing/exercising in a world without money.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSo0Lc4kCbpOmiOsk6tHTUU_rLFV1trK qlDgyLhYJ2os3vIPmg-Rw

Eustress combats (restores sensitivity in) chronic distress reactively driven neuroendocrine resistance syndromes.
Restore physiology eliminate pathophysiology.

Amtram
05-01-14, 06:07 PM
Can you find any references to these made by any researchers besides Panksepp? I found no other published papers using this terminology even in animal studies, much less human. If he is the only person who proposes these as a known mechanism, then it's unlikely that there's any reason to accept it as worthy of consideration. Reproducibility is key, and if nobody's even bothering to try reproducing it, that's a strong indication that the findings are not worth investigating.

daveddd
05-01-14, 08:41 PM
Can you find any references to these made by any researchers besides Panksepp? I found no other published papers using this terminology even in animal studies, much less human. If he is the only person who proposes these as a known mechanism, then it's unlikely that there's any reason to accept it as worthy of consideration. Reproducibility is key, and if nobody's even bothering to try reproducing it, that's a strong indication that the findings are not worth investigating.

primary or bottom up emotions are pretty well accepted

Amtram
05-01-14, 09:40 PM
primary or bottom up emotions are pretty well accepted

You will find plenty of references to Conditioned Responses and Unconditioned Responses. You will find plenty of references to Conditioned Stimuli and Unconditioned Stimuli. What you will not find, outside of this single researcher's work, is "Complex Unconditioned Emotional Responses." Since the concept was presented long enough ago, we can assume that if it had had scientific validity/potential, other researchers would have picked up on in and begun their own investigations. That has not happened. Which leads to the question - if other scientists don't think it's worthy of attention, why should we?

daveddd
05-01-14, 09:49 PM
i understand your doubt there

I'm just wondering if exact wording always rules out similar theories

Amtram
05-02-14, 08:19 AM
Yes, it does. Because in science, it's very important to have terminology that is specific and means the same thing to everyone who uses it. This is what makes a lot of it confusing. It sounds complicated when we read it, but it's actually designed to be as narrowly specific as possible so that everyone knows exactly what's being talked about with no room for confusion.

mildadhd
05-20-14, 02:59 PM
Amtram,

What is an emotional feeling, scientifically?

P

SB_UK
05-21-14, 02:39 PM
A state of excitation ?

SB_UK
05-21-14, 03:33 PM
and a context
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~branniga/excitation.html
An emotion requires a state of autonomic arousal PLUS a social label appropriate to the experience

So - a roller coaster and being chased by an animal might yield similar arousal - but in different contexts defining emotional state whether positive or negative.

SB_UK
05-21-14, 03:51 PM
It makes sense that arousal would extend from low frequency EEG to high frequency EEG ie from 'out cold' to 'at max'.

Ideally we want to be sufficiently/positively aroused to undertake a task - not fall asleep or be too anxious to undertake - sounds like ADD-I and ADHD.

-*-

Since all of the 7 emotions operate through pain (PAG) - it would make sense for transcendence to eliminate pain - ie alleviation of suffering through material world separation (dissociation/transcendence).

Strong connection between transcendence - pain-relief - wisdom - delta EEG - dissociative like effects (ketamine) - stress-relief - bliss ... ... ...
so we're literally travelling into transcendence of emotion (the highs and lows) - replaced with a surprisingly attractive (high-low) representing dual formation between the two.

http://www.dailyinfo.co.uk/food/venue-pics/hi-lo.jpg

for Bob Marley loving hi-lo's in Oxfridge.

Twiggy
05-21-14, 04:43 PM
Hmm, this is a very interesting discussion. Thanks :)

Greyhound1
05-21-14, 06:11 PM
PROMINENT THEORIES ON EMOTIONS
Simplified

James Lange Theory

Stimulus --> Behavior --> Arousal --> Feeling


Cannon - Bard Theory

Stimulus --> Thalamus --> Feeling & Arousal



Schachter-Singer Theory

Stimulus --> Arousal --> Cognition


Plutchik Theory

Stimulus --> Cognition --> Feeling --> Behavior

SB_UK
05-22-14, 07:53 AM
PROMINENT THEORIES ON EMOTIONS
Simplified

James Lange Theory

Stimulus --> Behavior --> Arousal --> Feeling


Cannon - Bard Theory

Stimulus --> Thalamus --> Feeling & Arousal



Schachter-Singer Theory

Stimulus --> Arousal --> Cognition


Plutchik Theory

Stimulus --> Cognition --> Feeling --> Behavior

By monitoring the micro patterns of activity in the frontopolar cortex, the researchers could predict which hand the participant would choose 7 SECONDS before the participant was aware of the decision.
“Your decisions are strongly prepared by brain activity. By the time consciousness kicks in, most of the work has already been done,” said study co-author John-Dylan Haynes, a Max Planck Institute neuroscientist.



Stimulus --> Arousal/Cognition

So if we're always the last to know - then there's a real-time correspondence between some stimulus and some effect.


Stimulus --> Effect
Affect --> Effect

Affect <--> Effect to restore homeostasis.

IE touch a hot spoon -> release hot spoon to restore homeostasis.

Let's say that somebody told you that all red spoons are hot and all blue spoons were cold - we'd react the same way if we were told to open our eyes just as a red spoon (regardless of temp) was placed into it
- that is, that there's instaneous
Affect <--> Effect to restore homeostasis.
- inclusive of cognition (defined as something the mind knows).

mildadhd
05-22-14, 01:40 PM
In this post, I am attempting to express my own opinions, based on my layman opinion of Prof. Panksepp/Dr.Mate/Prof.Grandin work, as I understand at this time.

This is my own personal interpretation, please leave room for learning.( I will quote more specifically, in separate posts)


Focusing on emotional affects(bold), ground up development at birth, (pre-learned, pre-awareness), at the primary affective level.


Levels of Control

-Primary(raw, instinctual, genetic memories/feelings, built in tools for survival)

-Secondary(mostly subconscious, learned)

-Tertiary (mostly conscious, awareness)


Primary Affects

-Emotional stressor-->Complex unconditioned emotional response systems-->emotional response

-Homeostatic stressor-->Complex unconditioned homeostatic response systems-->homeostatic responses

-Sensory stressor-->Complex unconditioned sensory response systems-->sensory responses


We don't need a neocortex to feel primary emotions,(affective consciousness), therefore primary emotional feelings don't come primarily from the neocortex.

(Humans can live without a neocortex, but they can't live without a subcortex.)

At birth maturation of affective system consciousness (subcortical) precedes cognitive system consciousness (neocortical) during early development.

From conception to the age of 4*, human consciousness is primarily emotionally affective.


Primary emotional systems, SEEKING, FEAR, RAGE, LUST, CARE, PANIC/GRIEF, PLAY. (capitalized to represent they primary process emotional affective systems, as apposed to secondary and tertiary processes)


Opinions, additions, subtractions appreciated.

P

SB_UK
05-22-14, 01:40 PM
As far as I can see - the self (-) and social (+) emotions ie Peripheral's 7 CUERs all expressing through Periaqueductal grey have a relationship with pain ie
lots of self (-)
no social (+)
->- pain

Goal = transcendence via wisdom

- pleasure -><- pain duality formation = bliss

No further need for 7 emotions - happy at psych homeostatic balance of pleasure -> <- pain duality.

SB_UK
05-22-14, 01:51 PM
play -> lust -> care -> seeking the meaning of life

The meaning of life is living one's life in a certain way until one transforms into the Middle Way, into synchrony with the Middle way.

At this point the reason why we've so many receptors for recreational drugs like opium, cocaine, ketamine, cannabis - reveals itself.

Flooded with endogenous (controlled - sanctioned by the mighty Middle Way through the centre of everything) - drugs which make life so much more pleasurable.

Don't do drugs people - you'll just make yourself resistant to the action of your own central nervous drug pipeline.

You know it makes sense.

SB_UK
05-22-14, 02:13 PM
The things is that we could get there several thousand years ago - and so why ever would we think that we'd need all of the very vast amount of information at our disposal now relative to then to get there - just confused did we become
- overcoming pain through transcending emotions which encode implicit duals (one of which is pain) through mind (of morality).

At point of mind - you've nothing left to achieve - as the point was to get there all along.

And what about all of the very vast amount of information which we're in the process of accumulation ?

It's important to re-inforce that EVERYTHING that we've done has been (misguidedly and not that we were aware of this) subservient to helping species enlightenment - ie all people making the transition to drugs swirling around their heads - and happiness fixedly through mere existence without conditionality.

The point in life is to be happy.And upon completion of mind - we see that that is right.
No matter how important one thinks one's work is - all that matters is making the transition to wisdom (happiness through mere existence).

And that'd be the formal definition of free, freedom, liberation etc and so forth - you know the deal ... ...
The Meaning of Life.

To escape Material world desire (pleasure as pain's dual) / Material world attachment (meaning reward system usage) through mind (of morality).

With mind -
C. 'U.R.E. the C.U.R.E. 4 C.U.E.R. and then C. 'U.R.E. 3 as a bird actually more so.

that sense gratification is far less pleasurable than the pleasure derived by acting in [resonant synchrony with a creative substrate.] in such a way that one can attain to [resonant synchrony with a creative substrate] and be eternally happyThe point of life is to be happy.
You're born into a death sentence.
Attain wisdom and you're granted eternal life.
Not quite as it seems, but nearly.

mildadhd
05-22-14, 02:50 PM
As far as I can see - the self (-) and social (+) emotions ie Peripheral's 7 CUERs all expressing through Periaqueductal grey have a relationship with pain ie
lots of self (-)
no social (+)
->- pain

Goal = transcendence via wisdom

- pleasure -><- pain duality formation = bliss

No further need for 7 emotions - happy at psych homeostatic balance of pleasure -> <- pain duality.

I think I agree, but I don't understand why you don't see any need for the primary 7 emotion systems?

Maybe I am misunderstanding?

I find having the actual physically mechanism/systems involved is what makes Prof Panksepp's Theory of Emotion stand out for me.

If I understand correctly SEEKING comes first. ( all affective feelings evolved of movement?)

Life is suppose to feel eustressful.

First when stable SEEKING (expectancy/need) system (+)feeling (eustressful)

then when stable, FEAR (runway/hide) system (-) (distressful)

when stable, RAGE (anger/fight) system (-)feeling (distressful)

(First 3 are in all reptiles)

when stable, LUST (desire) system (+)feeling (eustressful)

when stable, CARE (maternal) system (+)feeling (eustressful)

when stable, GRIEF/PANIC (separation) system (-)feeling (distressful)

when stable, PLAY (joy) system (+)feeling (eustressful)

First 3 and last 4 are in mammals)


Distress promotes instability

Eustress promotes stability


Punishments and Rewards are found in the world.

I think we agree, I just think there is so much more to understand, like your thoughts on pain and emotions by understanding the 7 primary emotional systems we are born with.

Honest opinion my friend, I want to learn.


P

SB_UK
05-22-14, 03:03 PM
I think I agree, but I don't understand why you don't see any need for the seven emotions.

I think evolutionary growth of human beings to wisdom, via recapitulation:The repetition of an evolutionary or other process during development or growth. takes us through
reptilian
mammalian
--- completion of mind ---
to a properly human stage representing the generation of a globally logically consistent with all of human wellbeing ie moral mind

- at which point we've transcended the material world (the 7 CUERs).

So - they're necessary but are overcome through completion of the human metamorphic cycle.

-*-

Simple question - what's the point of lust when you've passed the menopause ?
They're stages of life - which we're supposed to pass through.

The single largest transition is pushing past the entire 7 CUERs and with completion of mind entering a new reward system / mode of living
- which has nothing left to achieve.

We don't come alive (remain as animals) until we complete this cycle; we do not have a mind until it is enforcedly moral.
Up until then, the mind is simply (biological, chemical, physic-al weaponry) no good.

mildadhd
05-22-14, 03:13 PM
:) intermission

I agree, I think the development of SEEKING system, (formally know as the reward system) occurs thorough out life, but I think the personal foundation is based on early emotional life. (affective systems/consciousness)(before 4)

What occurs before 4 has a huge impact on cravings (emotional chemistry) in later life.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIpPAho-R0o

SB_UK
05-22-14, 03:31 PM
:) intermission

I agree, I think the development of SEEKING system, (formally know as the reward system) occurs thorough out life, but I think the personal foundation is based on early emotional life. (affective systems/consciousness)(before 4)

What occurs before 4 has a huge impact on cravings (emotional chemistry) in later life.

I think that the first 4 years of life can send the child towards behaviours which promote sense gratification (blunting of physiological systems) and serve to impede the child in their progress to enlightenment
- and that insecurity through parental separation, being dumped in a nursery and being fed meaty sugar salt gluten balls

- all conspire to make the child's task to complete their minds (through a personal enquiry into morality) - more difficult.

Instead of working to feed the planet with proper food, a bad start in life propels the individual towards (classic drug seeking behaviour) acquiring ever more meaty sugar salt gluten balls.

Buying a mansion stocked with slaves filling your rooms from floor to ceiling with balls.

-*-

Can a child be irreversibly disabled from entering enlighenment by a poor first 4 years ?
No - but it's gonna' be hard to pull up if you're in an addictive nose dive.

'Requiem for a Dream' teaches us where addiction leads.

Can't pull up.

SB_UK
05-22-14, 03:37 PM
So - a particularly important time - those first few years - a particularly important time to eliminate Distressors.

They warp the child's reward needs and will make it hard (neuroendocrine resistance syndromes) to get back on track.

Feeling safe is key - as one progresses from birth to maturity (wisdom).

It's all a matter of priorities [for the parent] - learning information you'll never need, for a certificate which'll allow you to get a job you hate
- just to survive

- or a life in keeping with human biology [of parent assisting child] towards acquiring morality as a fixed trait.

-*-

Things is - you may not know all of the right answers at state wisdom
- but you're no longer of any defined opinion - and so are free to change your mind.

That's the essential quality of morality - no vested interest.
No personal involvement - the best argument wins.

You cannot help but accept it - as it (and not personal gain) floats your (completed structure of mind) boat.

Putting some clear space between human beings and the animals.

mildadhd
05-22-14, 05:16 PM
So - a particularly important time - those first few years - a particularly important time to eliminate Distressors.

They warp the child's reward needs and will make it hard (neuroendocrine resistance syndromes) to get back on track.

Feeling safe is key - as one progresses from birth to maturity (wisdom).

It's all a matter of priorities [for the parent] - learning information you'll never need, for a certificate which'll allow you to get a job you hate
- just to survive

- or a life in keeping with human biology [of parent assisting child] towards acquiring morality as a fixed trait.

-*-

Things is - you may not know all of the right answers at state wisdom
- but you're no longer of any defined opinion - and so are free to change your mind.

That's the essential quality of morality - no vested interest.
No personal involvement - the best argument wins.

You cannot help but accept it - as it (and not personal gain) floats your (completed structure of mind) boat.

Putting some clear space between human beings and the animals.


Understanding the differences and focusing on similarities is another reason why I like Panksepp's approach.

Example:

All mammals including humans have the same 7 raw primary emotional affective systems originating in the lower subcortical brain stem area.

Humans and other mammals have obvious neocortical differences

But humans and other humans also other have learned neocortical differences.

Affective consciousness is what all human beings have most in common, psychologically.


I want to post some quotes, I need to type them out.

Might take me some time, I appreciate the learning conversations.

There is lots of topics I want to explore more, including the early childhood development/addiction topics, vested interest etc, although these involve secondary and tertiary processes, that are also very important, and I haven't understood the primary processes well enough yet.




P

mildadhd
05-22-14, 11:33 PM
The Modern Neuroscience of Emotions


The modern neuroscientific revolution began 40-odd years ago with the development of fantastic new procedures for studying the workings of the brain, culminating in the neuroimaging devices of today that allow researchers to observe in vivo (in the living organism) what happens inside the human brain while someone is performing various activities.

Many who are enthralled by this marvelous new technology have been educated in behavioral or cognitive traditions.

The former don't accept emotional feelings as part of their program of research.

The latter are prone to see affective feelings as just a subset of cognitive processes, which is a large mistake, at least at the primary-process level of brain organization, which is our main concern here.

Cognitions are created by perceptions, learning, and higher brain functions.

Primal affects are ancestral tools for living that have dedicated circuits for various "lower" brain functions.

Although cognitive mind functions in human beings are now commonly accepted as matter of fact, most researchers engaged in animal research still cling to behavioral doctrines and will ignore, deny, or remain agnostic about the existence of any affective life in animals.

As noted, certain animal behaviorists, under the banner of cognitive ethology, did begin to ponder the potential mental capacities of animals (Griffin,2001).

But generally most shunned discussion of emotional issues, and few pursued affective brain research.

This then was the strand of thinking that led to the tendency within modern neuroscience to reject the existence of, and hence the systematic scientific study of, affects in other animals.

The first strand of thinking is anchored in the erroneous ancient belief that mentality is vitalistic--that is an independent, immaterial force that cannot be scientifically scrutinized.

As already noted, this equation of consciousness with vitalism is incorrect.

Primary-process mentality--the experience of intrinsic evolutionary values--is a function of the brain and can be scientifically analyzed in the same way as any other biological function (indeed, in the same way as any other inferred function or process in nature such as gravity or the activity of quantum physics).

Another strand of thinking, which persuaded neuroscientists either to reject or ignore the question of affect in other animals, has its roots in the latter part of the nineteenth century, when William James and Carl Lange (1834-1900) independently and almost simultaneously developed a peripheral feedback theory of affect.

They saw emotional behavior (like fleeing a scary situation) as an automatic, reflexive bodily response that is in itself devoid of affect.

They proposed that information about these bodily responses is subsequently fed back to the thinking and observing part of the brain, namely the neocortex, which cognitively experiences the emotion.

Thus, a higher brain function was thought to generate the affective experience (Damasio, 1994; James, 1884/1968; Lange, 1885; LeDoux, 1996).

So you would not run away from a knife-wielding thief because you were afraid; rather you became afraid because you were running away, which created all kinds of changes in how your body felt, as "read out" by higher brain functions.

In fairness, we will point out that William James, the great defender of mind in psychological science, also noted that all instincts have a feeling to them and that the feeling and the emotional response occur simultaneously (the position we defend here).



Although there is now scientific evidence showing that the enactment of emotional behaviors can generate weak shifts in affective feelings (Clynes, 1977; Schnall & Laird, 2003; Stepper & Strack, 1993) and that such effects can be obtained also by emotional action imagery within the human mind (Panksepp & Gordon, 2003), there is little or no evidence to suggest that intense affective feelings during emotional actions requires feedback to the brain from the peripheral body.

Most of the evidence suggests, to the contrary, that raw emotional feelings are generated directly by brain tissues, indeed by those circuits that generate instinctual emotional actions.

This does not mean that inputs from the body have no effects.

They can certainly intensify or weaken feelings engendered within the brain,

But they are not decisive in generating the specific way we feel emotionally.

In any event, the classic interpretation of the James-Lange theory, proposed 120 years ago, is still the favored view of how emotions are created by those who know little about subcortical regions of the brain.

To this day there is no solid line of experimental evidence that supports the traditional version of the the James-Lange theory.

However, the data support William James's alternative conjecture for primary-process emotions--that instinctual actions have feeling components--while his traditional cortical read-out theory can help us understand how the brain understands its emotions.

Thus, to the best of our current knowledge, the brain generates affects in two ways:

The lower parts of the brain can generate specific affective feelings that accurately signal both what the body needs (homeostatic and sensory affects) and what the brain needs (emotional affects).

Then our higher brains deal with these powers of the mind in a large variety of idiosyncratic cognitive ways, which often contributes spice to the "human comedy".

In addition all feelings have an arousal-intensity dimension which is often shared by many different feelings.

However, it should also be recognized that the brain and body have many arousal systems, including a major stress axis (the pituitary-adrenal system) and if one activates those without any true emotion being aroused, then people will tend to interpret the arousal in terms of the emotional scenario that the environment has promoted (Schacter & Singer, 1962).

General arousal by itself does not an emotion make.

A person also has to feel good and bad in a variety of ways that correspond to various instinctual acting-out urges.

When someone is angry, he may want to strike someone.

The urge to strike someone, at the subcortical primary-process level, is concurrently accompanied by an enraged emotional feeling.

That is what the data indicate, so far.

But we also need to point out that every scientific fact always has multiple interpretations.

The aim of science is to sift among these interpretations.

That is why decortication experiments, which indicate that emotional feelings survive massive damage to upper (neocortical) brain regions, are so important.

If you are satisfied with the above synopsis of our views on the James-Lange "bodily feedback" account of emotion, feel free to skip to the next section devoted to the influential view of Antonio Damasio.

But if a more detailed discussion would be of interest, please read on..

Although we do not ascribe to the James-Lange feedback theory (or to its modern "read-out" progeny) we are admirers of James.

As already noted, the concept of a peripheral "read out" of bodily commotion to higher brain regions was not his only theoretical observation concerning emotion.

He also suggested, more correctly in our estimation, that every instinctual emotional response is accompanied by characteristic feelings.

Had he only known that such instinctual responses were generated by distinct brain circuits, he might have surmised that there was no need to posit a cognitive "read out" to have emotional feelings, although the tendency to dwell on our feelings, even modify them through our capacity for conscious awareness, is certainly part of our higher cognitive apparatus.

That is why emotional regulation is such a favored topic in psychology these days (Gross, 2009) and is also great importance for psychotherapy.

In any event, as we will argue throughout this book, raw emotional feelings are part of the subneocortical circuitry that also generates emotional action readiness.

Because of the heavy weight of intellectual history (consider the case of radical behaviorism), James's alternative approach to understanding emotional feelings was not fully developed until recently (Panksepp, 1982, 1998a, 2005a)


(For more see..)

-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind",(Chapter:The Evolution of Affective Consciousness), P 63-65.


i!i

mildadhd
05-23-14, 01:14 AM
PROMINENT THEORIES ON EMOTIONS
Simplified

James Lange Theory

Stimulus --> Behavior --> Arousal --> Feeling


Cannon - Bard Theory

Stimulus --> Thalamus --> Feeling & Arousal



Schachter-Singer Theory

Stimulus --> Arousal --> Cognition


Plutchik Theory

Stimulus --> Cognition --> Feeling --> Behavior


Greyhound1,

Thanks for the theory comparisons, I learned I was making some slight mistakes in my personal opinions, while reviewing the material.

I need to do work on my understanding and explanation of the topics and appreciate the discussion guidelines.

Here is two charts I found online that I think help explain Panksepp's Theory.

I hope to review and learn more and be able to accurately express my opinions better in the future, please leave room for learning.





http://www.intechopen.com/source/html/41876/media/image9.png


http://www.ploscollections.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0021236.g003&representation=PNG_M

SB_UK
05-23-14, 02:29 AM
rage
fear
panic

If the reptilian emotions guide you - you'll tend to be self-centred.

lust
care
play
seeking

If the social/mammalian emotions guide you - you'll tend to be social

mind - cognition

If the properly human construct guides you - you'll tend to equality on a global scale (ie equality between all man).

-*-

So - reptilian emotions in place - govern an individual's operation.
rage/panic/fear if you don't get what you want when you want it.
Early stage

Then - mammalian emotions in place - control reptilian emotions.
So -
lust/care/play/seeking - engage rage/panic/fear if their needs (lust, care, play, seeking) are not met - ie 'well if you're not going to play my game, then I'm taking my football home'
Then -
mind (morality not knowledge - limited knowledge required see wisdom recorded 3000 years ago) controls lust/care/play/seeking, rage/panic/fear

- so I would be sent into panic if forced to talk to a politician.

Because there're no words which I can use to express the fundamental need for the need to transcend political systems which involve a ruling elite.

-*-

So - instead of completely transcending:
reptilian emotions
mammalian emotions
properly human emotions

- they're reassigned, in such a way that the usage of rage, fear, panic are completely different in the young child versus the individual who has attained wisdom.

Though it has to be mentioned that rage, fear, panic in the wise - will dissolve as more people acquire wisdom ie a large part of rage, fear, panic in those who aspire to logical consistency - comes from an encounter with people with power without logical consistency -
- naturally the same negative emotions are not driven when we encounter children - engaged in the process of building logical consistency/mind/morality.

-*-

Thing is - is that morality is all engulfing - you can't choose to pop down to a previous level - when acquired - the moral mind governs behaviour.

SB_UK
05-23-14, 06:18 AM
As far as I can see - the problem with somebody who wants to be consistent (completion of mind) in today's society is complete meltdown when one *has* to talk to somebody (do what they request) who is not similarly constrained.

So - and once again - it's not to be expected that a young child will be logically consistent.
That's not the problem.

The problem comes from being forced to listen to somebody who is not logically consistent.

Compulsion - which arises in education (you must listen to your teacher) and work (you must listen to others) - or you will not acquire money and won't be able to survive.

Yet again - the problem becomes that we apply conditionality on survival (ie money)
- where only the most illogical/immoral/psychopathic can comply.

If you're acting in morality's name - you don't apply compulsion.
People do or not do - if in line with morality.

Morality commands behaviour.

Morality engages emotions - mostly extreme confusion ('does not compute'), panic, fear, sometimes rage
- when people act without consistency.

It's not enough for people to be locally consistent - since if one person tells you that 'a' is white, and the other that 'a' is brown - and both stick to their positions
- then when you're asked which colour 'a' is - you're not able to answer.

-*-

Suggestion

Don't worry about any of the emotions.
It's important that people develop and apply morality within a global environment which is explicitly sculpted along moral lines.

Bottom line - sufficient access to physiological/psychological necessities for all without condition.

What is necessary ?
We all know.

Sustainable healthy food, adequate zero energy shelter, hygiene, clean water, some items of clothing.
Everybody knows what we absolutely need for survival.

All of these for free by people contributing a little effort to local co-operatives.

And then spend your time doing what you like.

You won't engage any negative emotions - because nobody can compel you to do anything you don't want to - in a system where you can ALWAYS walk away - witout ANY fear of reprisals.

Nobody can sack you, dock your pay, write a bad reference letter.

Ahhh! But without the stick - won't society collapse ?

No - the stick forces criminal behaviour
- why'd anybody rebel against a system when the system applies no compulsion ?

There's nothing adversarial to rail against.
No machine to rage against.

Just you servicing your own needs, and going a little bit further and doing something useful for society if it pleases you to.

A completely free society where personal and not financial (material) reward floats your boat.

A shift from animal (material world) to properly human (moral) reward systems
- with the properly human reward system in theory being able to sculpt a world in which the lower animal emotions need not (definitely so when properly mature/wise) - apply.

Happiness through existence at the psychological homeostatic point of balance between male and female archetypes of excitation / inhibition simultaneously.
Basal balance between excitation / inhibition
- where inhibition refers to the generation of a structure which is an eversion of excitation and which 'balances' (described as controls previously)
- but balances male archetype.

SB_UK
05-23-14, 10:03 AM
When would morality feel ?

rage
fear
panic

-- only if morality is contravened.
So - these emotions would be eliminated if all people converge on moral behaviour.

lust
care
play
seeking

What use 'd these be ?
Lust for elegant sustainable systems, quality (music, art)
Care for the collective environment
Play with a dog
Seeking quality

I don't know.

Maybe retained, maybe re-defined, maybe lost ?
It all depends what the words retained, re-defined and lost are meant to mean.

-*-

Using simple words -
- the basic emotions of rage, fear, panic aren't really very useful - for the most part the moral mind should be able to push past a world filled with stressors which elicit rage fear, panic.

If lust, care, play, seeking are used in the same sense that they're employed by mammals - in order to ensure that we have children who're sufficiently able to survive alone ie seeking mate, lust (standard definition), care for baby, play with child
- then we soon reach a point in life at which (generally the late 30's) where we push past all of those basic life cycle processes.

-*-

The single most important point to make is that life doesn't really begin until we attain completion of mind - because this represents an end-point of dual emotions (one of which is pain)
- and allows us to operate in a way in which we're happy regardless - but that where re-use of emotions ie to encounter a fantastic piece of music has a positive outcome - but where there's no painful dual ie you're not in pain (unhappy) if you do not.

So - a positive basal level post-wisdom, with flirting encounters with high quality - which're nice - but if we really need to - we can do without
- because we've arrived.

Why's this idea useful ? Because it gives the individual work to do, even after the individual has made the transition to wisdom
- where this work is not necessary - though where it is known that anything contributed particularly if personally rewarding - will likely be rewarding to others

- which is nice.

SB_UK
05-23-14, 10:09 AM
So suggestion - life becomes as good as the effort you're willing to put in ? post-wisdom
- where by default it's more than good enough

where pre-wisdom, nothing is good enough
- actually nothing satisfies

it all just feels like a bit of a waste of time.

SB_UK
05-23-14, 11:02 AM
So - a positive basal level post-wisdom, with flirting encounters with high quality - which're nice - but if we really need to - we can do without
- because we've arrived.

Why's this idea useful ? Because it gives the individual work to do, even after the individual has made the transition to wisdom
- where this work is not necessary - though where it is known that anything contributed particularly if personally rewarding - will likely be rewarding to others

- which is nice.
http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/a/hierarchyneeds_2.htm
Peak Experiences: Individuals who are self-actualized often have what Maslow termed peak experiences, or moments of intense joy, wonder, awe and ecstasy. After these experiences, people feel inspired, strengthened, renewed or transformed.

SB_UK
05-23-14, 11:46 AM
Moments of resonance, upon attaining resonant synchrony with a fundamental substance.

Why not ?

mildadhd
05-23-14, 01:14 PM
FEAR, RAGE, GRIEF/PANIC can hurt us, but they also can help us survive.

All 7 (both positive affect and negative affects) SEEKING, FEAR, ANGER, LUST, CARE, GRIEF/PANIC, PLAY can be "hurtful" when unstable.

These 7 primary unconditioned emotional response systems can't be eliminated, these systems are built into our brain tissues.

They are ancestral genetic memories, built into the brain to promote survival.

I am not disagreeing with secondary-process and tertiary-process, lifestyle adjustments/improvements that promote stability. (and appreciate the support/discussions)

But I think understanding the raw primary levels of control, we are born with, that higher brain levels of control are build upon, will help us better understand the secondary and tertiary levels of control.

I think it is a mistake, to pass over the primary levels of control with out understanding them and their relationship with secondary and tertiary levels of control better.

As we mature the primary, secondary and tertiary brain processes all work together as a whole, not separately.


P

SB_UK
05-23-14, 03:28 PM
FEAR, RAGE, GRIEF/PANIC can hurt us, but they also can help us survive.

They are ancestral genetic memories, built into the brain to promote survival.

Thing is - is that upon attaining wisdom we (in effect) become eternal.

Survival ceases to be a motivation.

Die and go to Heaven before dying and going to Heaven.

So - we no longer need worry about survival - because we can no longer die - at least that part of us which matters

nothing to do with our phenomenological form

but that which projects our material form - attains a state
- arrives back in frame with its maker.

Freedom.

Freedom cannot have any other meaning.

-*-

Up until attaining wisdom - the only real fear/panic/rage inducing stressor is the knowledge/prospect of one's imminent death.

We're all born into death sentences.

Imagine the surprise when we discover that we can cheat death, attain eternal life and lose the fear of transition from this illusory world into a domain, which as precursor to everything we know - would it be only just to consider that which is actually real.

-*-

Self-actualization - to realise self is all there is - is the only place that one can see emotional involvement in achieving - According to this&that, a liberated human being has realised '...' as his or her own true self - there is only 1 place we're striving to reach - and I'm guessing that it's via our emotional subsystem that we strive (seeking) to reach.

Like a ball rolling down a hillside, it does because that's what it does.

Evolutionary cycles complete with a reprise to the same basic founding foundational form - is unstable until it achieves so - because that's the way that the system (evolutionary, creative) works; not surprising - to be expected - there needs to be an underlying mechanism to creation or it would not create. From blind watchmaker to benign creator - there's no (evolution vs creation) - they're not Either-Or(s) but instead are (as in all of these seeming opposites) the closest of synonyms.