View Full Version : Is ADHD a pre-requisite for PTSD?


Abi
04-24-14, 12:20 AM
No Peripheral in my example a person who does NOT have ADHD but has a genetic predisposition could under EXTREME stress cross the clinical threshold to become a disorder

Note that there is a disorder called PTSD which has this aetiology. Bear in mind also that executive dysfunction and emo dysregulation are amoung the symptoms of PTSD.

PTSD is not treated with stimulant medication. It is most responsive to SSRIs and mood stabilisers like Depakene and Risperdal, as well as psychotherapy. By contrast, ADHD is responsive to stimulants like Ritalin, and not responsive to SSRIs, mood stabilisers, or psychotherapy.

daveddd
04-24-14, 05:52 AM
Note that there is a disorder called PTSD which has this aetiology. Bear in mind also that executive dysfunction and emo dysregulation are amoung the symptoms of PTSD.

PTSD is not treated with stimulant medication. It is most responsive to SSRIs and mood stabilisers like Depakene and Risperdal, as well as psychotherapy. By contrast, ADHD is responsive to stimulants like Ritalin, and not responsive to SSRIs, mood stabilisers, or psychotherapy.

ptsd is just activated adhd (adhd is poor emotional regulation)

you need ADHD to get ptsd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23561240

Abi
04-24-14, 06:17 AM
ptsd is just activated adhd (adhd is poor emotional regulation)

you need ADHD to get ptsd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23561240

Whoaaaaaaaaaah???? PTSD is a completely separate condition.

* ADHD is primarily genetic and shows up very early in life, usually before age 5 and necessarily before age 12. PTSD is primarily caused by traumatic events, though there is probably a genetic predisposition, and can show up at any time in life.

*ADHD responds best to stimulants. PTSD responds best to SSRI's and certain mood stabilisers and antipsychotics.

*Psychotherapy has little if any benefit to ADHD (only) sufferers. Psychotherapy is very successful in the treatment of PTSD.

*ADHD is a lifetime condition. To the best of my knowledge PTSD technically is not.

daveddd
04-24-14, 06:27 AM
according to the evidence in the study, it does not at all appear to be a completely separate condition

maybe if you're strictly talking about a DSM definition

Amtram
04-24-14, 07:42 AM
ptsd is just activated adhd (adhd is poor emotional regulation)

you need ADHD to get ptsd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23561240

That is not what that study said. It was studying PTSD in people who already had a diagnosis of ADHD. There are plenty of people with PTSD who do not have ADHD. This study addressed the additional vulnerability to PTSD that comes from having the emotional dysregulation that comes with ADHD.

Would you be willing to commit to the assertion that every soldier who came back from Vietnam or Korea or Afghanistan or Iraq with PTSD also has ADHD? I don't think you'd be able to come up with supportive evidence for that.

Fortune
04-24-14, 07:44 AM
ptsd is just activated adhd (adhd is poor emotional regulation)

you need ADHD to get ptsd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23561240

That's not what that study says:

RESULTS:
The lifetime prevalence of PTSD was significantly higher among adults with ADHD compared with controls (10.0% vs 1.6%; P = .004). Participants with ADHD and those with ADHD + PTSD did not differ in core symptoms of ADHD nor in age at onset, but those with ADHD + PTSD had higher rates of psychiatric comorbidity than those with ADHD only (including higher lifetime rates of major depressive disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, social phobia, agoraphobia, and generalized anxiety disorder) and worse quality of life ratings for all domains. Familial risk analysis revealed that relatives of ADHD probands without PTSD had elevated rates of both ADHD (51%) and PTSD (12%) that significantly differed from rates among relatives of controls (7% [P ≤ .001] and 0% [P ≤ .05], respectively). A similar pattern of elevated risk for ADHD and PTSD (80% and 40%) was observed in relatives of probands with ADHD + PTSD (P ≤ .001 for both conditions).

daveddd
04-24-14, 08:06 AM
10 to 1 says relationship to me

Not you?

daveddd
04-24-14, 08:13 AM
Not to mention zero percent of control relatives with PTSD

daveddd
04-24-14, 08:21 AM
Amtram.

Yes most soldiers who develop PTSD usually have a genetic predisposition to emotional dysregulation (ADHD )

Abi
04-24-14, 08:53 AM
Bogus

Dizfriz
04-24-14, 09:12 AM
Amtram.

Yes most soldiers who develop PTSD usually have a genetic predisposition to emotional dysregulation (ADHD )
Cite please. You may have given this before but I don't have it now.


Dizfriz

daveddd
04-24-14, 09:36 AM
Yes. I'll give it to u when I'm home

Dizfriz
04-24-14, 09:55 AM
ptsd is just activated adhd (adhd is poor emotional regulation)

you need ADHD to get ptsd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23561240

Dave, you do not have to be ADHD to be PTSD.

What the study is saying is there might be some genetic linkage to ADHD and some similar familial aspects.

It is becoming more likely that a number of disorders are statistically linked in some way to each other. This would imply some underlying genetic commonalities. Some of the possible linkages are ADHD and Bipolar, Tourette's, possibly Schizophrenia and PTSD.

This is not established yet but is an area of interest. Keep in mind that, for the most part, these kind of comorbidities are statistical in nature focusing on the probabilities of a person being both.

The study is based on correlations and not causation. What they are saying is that a person who is ADHD is possibly more likely to become PTSD than the general population and there may be a familial connection similar to ADHD involved. They are examining these as comorbid conditions.

Another thing to keep in mind, for the most part, a single study has to be taken very provisionally until it has been replicated preferably several times.

So it looks likes that ADHD may be connected in some way to PTSD but we don't know how yet. That is really what the paper is saying.


These things can be hard to read sometimes. They, by necessity, indulge in a lot of psycho/scientific babble.

Take care,

Dizfriz

Dizfriz
04-24-14, 09:57 AM
Cite please. You may have given this before but I don't have it now.


Dizfriz
I think I found it, the one you gave earlier was probably it. I have responded on that basis.

Dizfriz

daveddd
04-24-14, 09:59 AM
I've read it quite a bit. I'll have to find the other sources later

Not so much ADHD as emotional dysregulation

Kunga knows quite a bit about it

daveddd
04-24-14, 10:21 AM
Dave, you do not have to be ADHD to be PTSD.

What the study is saying is there might be some genetic linkage to ADHD and some similar familial aspects.

It is becoming more likely that a number of disorders are statistically linked in some way to each other. This would imply some underlying genetic commonalities. Some of the possible linkages are ADHD and Bipolar, Tourette's, possibly Schizophrenia and PTSD.

This is not established yet but is an area of interest. Keep in mind that, for the most part, these kind of comorbidities are statistical in nature focusing on the probabilities of a person being both.

The study is based on correlations and not causation. What they are saying is that a person who is ADHD is possibly more likely to become PTSD than the general population and there may be a familial connection similar to ADHD involved. They are examining these as comorbid conditions.

Another thing to keep in mind, for the most part, a single study has to be taken very provisionally until it has been replicated preferably several times.

So it looks likes that ADHD may be connected in some way to PTSD but we don't know how yet. That is really what the paper is saying.


These things can be hard to read sometimes. They, by necessity, indulge in a lot of psycho/scientific babble.

Take care,

Dizfrizare there still professionals who view mental illness as seperate and distinct syndromes that happen to co occur together?

Abi
04-24-14, 10:25 AM
yes.

xx

TygerSan
04-24-14, 10:32 AM
are there still professionals who view mental illness as seperate and distinct syndromes that happen to co occur together?

Yes. This is how things are diagnosed via the DSM-IV and, despite the original intent to simply categorize symptoms that travel together, it has become a bit of a diagnostic bible, especially in the US.

The NIMH is backing away slowly from this approach in the research setting and as more research comes out via the new framework, I think we will see a gradual shift away from the discrete categorization. There are professionals now, for example, who will diagnose and treat comorbid ASD and ADHD despite the initial categorization that all but excluded an ADHD diagnosis for anyone on spectrum.

That said, some of the categorization is driven by the economics of the health care system, so it's highly unlikely that the different diagnoses are going away anytime soon. I still remember the prof who signed off on my accommodations for the GRE having trouble writing the letter because there wasn't a specific diagnosis listed in my file.

Dizfriz
04-24-14, 10:42 AM
are there still professionals who view mental illness as seperate and distinct syndromes that happen to co occur together?

Both ways I suspect are valid to a degree, but as long as the treatment is effective, I am not going to be too concerned either way.

The treatments differ somewhat for each. Examples are ADHD, Bipolar, Tourette's and PTSD. While these may be linked or comorbid, the treatment plan usually deals with each independently as well as addressing their interaction in the individual.

As an example, treating a mood disorder and bipolar is different than treating a mood disorder or bipolar alone.

Good and interesting question.

Dizfriz

Dizfriz
04-24-14, 10:47 AM
Yes. This is how things are diagnosed via the DSM-IV and, despite the original intent to simply categorize symptoms that travel together, it has become a bit of a diagnostic bible, especially in the US.

All too true mainly because, at least in the U.S., if you wish to get paid you must assign a DSM diagnosis.

Causes problems sometimes but it is as it is.

Dizfriz

daveddd
04-24-14, 10:56 AM
Yes I completely understand the dsm for treatment and insurance

I find it hard to believe that anyone professional believes I'm just coincidentally riddled with completely seperate and unrelated syndromes

Amtram
04-24-14, 11:01 AM
Worse with the ICD. You get to pick only one. "Comorbid? What is this comorbid you speak of?"

Abi
04-24-14, 11:05 AM
dave to my knowledge you have 2 syndromes, 3 if you count your past SUD.

no one is saying they are COMPLETELY unrelated, but what are you proposing... that we don't make any attemp to differentiate between mental illnesses?

Do we dx everyone as "Crazy Person - NOS"?

daveddd
04-24-14, 11:10 AM
No I have six

I don't think crazy person nos would help

But it seems treatment with an understanding of the basis or foundation of the problems are by far the best

The syndrome view is kind of silly

Dizfriz
04-24-14, 11:17 AM
But it seems treatment with an understanding of the basis or foundation of the problems are by far the best

I and most clinicians agree but we are a long way from that understanding. Right now we have to deal with what we have as imperfect as it is otherwise we would have nothing to use as guidelines for treatment.

The feds are committing a lot of research money towards this goal.

It will unfortunately, take time.

Dizfriz

daveddd
04-24-14, 11:20 AM
And honestly I think the syndrome view is only held by people who aren't doctors

daveddd
04-24-14, 11:25 AM
For billing it seems ok

There is a ton of great work in psycology on it

Maybe not biology

daveddd
04-24-14, 11:48 AM
Take me for instance. ( this is based off millons work )

I was born with an extremely strong biological reaction to fear

Maybe all primary emotions

That in itself is not a disorder

Start coupling it with life events and experiential avoidance and you get syndromes across the bored

Mindfulness awareness is excellent for this

Abi
04-24-14, 12:11 PM
I was born with GAD and developed Bipolar. So that's 2.

Though I do have a severe sleep disorder and borderline alcoholism... so maybe 4.

:)

daveddd
04-24-14, 12:45 PM
We could be brothers

mildadhd
04-24-14, 01:50 PM
No, ADHD is not a pre-requisite for PTSD.

Distress is a example of a pre-requisite for PTSD.

Some people are born with a emotional stress response system, with a lower capacity "set point" for emotional distress, making the emergence of both ADHD, PTSD, and other emotional health issues, more likely.

Some differences between PTSD and ADHD, are the period of psychological development and types of distress.

A caregiver suffering from untreated PTSD, could unintentionally impact the severity of ADHD at any age, especially in early development.

ADHD symptoms emerge in early development, when psychological brain mechanisms implicated in ADHD are completing development for the first time.

It may also be possible that an emotionally hypersensitive temperament present at birth, may be due to a combination hereditary factors and prenatal PTSD factors, before ADHD symptoms emerge.




P

daveddd
04-24-14, 07:16 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23607442

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22985097

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23561240

someone interpret the odds?

daveddd
04-24-14, 07:29 PM
the last one adhd and ptsd share a familiar risk factor

science has proved that adhd is a prerequisite for ptsd

good work science

daveddd
04-24-14, 07:37 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3513512/


this one interests me quite a bit

Lunacie
04-24-14, 08:29 PM
the last one adhd and ptsd share a familiar risk factor

science has proved that adhd is a prerequisite for ptsd

good work science

I don't know what you're seeing in those studies that I'm not seeing.


If ADHD were actually a prerequisite for PTSD, then only people with ADHD would get PTSD.

Those studies do not show that at all.

This increased chance probably goes back to having faulty emotional controls and being more sensitive to emotional trauma.


added: Aha! which is exactly what the last study you linked does show.

Fortune
04-24-14, 08:31 PM
the last one adhd and ptsd share a familiar risk factor

science has proved that adhd is a prerequisite for ptsd

good work science

No, that repeats what you linked earlier, that ADHD is a risk factor for developing PTSD.

I didn't check, but it's probably the same link.

daveddd
04-24-14, 08:40 PM
I don't know what you're seeing in those studies that I'm not seeing.


If ADHD were actually a prerequisite for PTSD, then only people with ADHD would get PTSD.

Those studies do not show that at all.

This increased chance probably goes back to having faulty emotional controls and being more sensitive to emotional trauma.


added: Aha! which is exactly what the last study you linked does show.

it shows they are a ridiculous amount more likely

higher numbers then adhd genetic components

daveddd
04-24-14, 08:41 PM
No, that repeats what you linked earlier, that ADHD is a risk factor for developing PTSD.

I didn't check, but it's probably the same link.

yes the risk factor , like 90% of the time

thats a significant number to most people

daveddd
04-24-14, 08:44 PM
if you guys are looking for proof

in the words of a great child psychologist "proof is for math and booze"

Lunacie
04-24-14, 09:31 PM
yes the risk factor , like 90% of the time

thats a significant number to most people

Which link says that? I can't find that statistic in your links.

Fortune
04-24-14, 10:28 PM
Basically nowhere.

Like, there's a study that says that transgender people are ~5 times more likely to be autistic than the rest of the population, but this does not mean that being autistic is just activated gender dysphoria or whatever.

PTSD is even more common among military veterans who have seen combat. (http://www.veteransandptsd.com/PTSD-statistics.html) Pretty sure PTSD is not "activated military service." From reading information on that page (gleaned from studies), it appears that seeing combat is a much higher risk factor for developing PTSD than ADHD is.

Amtram
04-24-14, 10:28 PM
The only prerequisite for PTSD is traumatic stress.

Fortune
04-24-14, 10:35 PM
yes the risk factor , like 90% of the time

thats a significant number to most people

No, that's not what those statistics mean. Statistically speaking there are likely more people who have PTSD without ADHD than PTSD with ADHD, and other risk factors exist that may represent greater or lesser likelihood of PTSD comorbidity than ADHD has. Such as seeing combat, for example. Or other conditions.

That study is not a complete breakdown of PTSD risk factors, and taking the results in a vacuum is misleading.

daveddd
04-25-14, 05:50 AM
The only prerequisite for PTSD is traumatic stress.

and genetics

genetics is important

it appears the same genetics may be responsible for adhd as ptsd

daveddd
04-25-14, 05:53 AM
amtram,

a lot of people experience traumatic events

do you think everyone who experiences traumatic events develop ptsd?

if not, why not?

daveddd
04-25-14, 06:09 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=GlgJAc7NQpQC&pg=PA35&dq=ptsd+adhd+genetics&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YDNaU-PgOsaG8gGGo4Bw&ved=0CFcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=ptsd%20adhd%20genetics&f=false


shared genetic diathesis

SB_UK
04-25-14, 06:50 AM
The DSM does not address the causes of personality disorders because nobody knows the cause.

The most widely accepted theory currently includes a moderate genetic predisposition interacting with continuous stress during the first few years of life.

Sounds like Peripheral's description of ADHD.

genetic predisposition = Inherited through histome
continuous stress during the first few years of life = exacerbated by the stress (high GI, high protein) of an inappropriate diet ?

Genetic predisposition present everywhere, but expression only where a Western diet (high carb,protein) is pursued.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671056/

There is now compelling evidence, from both epidemiological and clinical studies, that suggests that people who had low birth weight (often a marker for fetal growth constraints) or who showed reduced growth rate during infancy and childhood, but who subsequently showed catch-up growth, have higher susceptibility to abdominal obesity, glucose intolerance, type 2 diabetes, or cardiovascular diseases later in life (3 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671056/#B3)–7 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671056/#B7)).Lower birth weight is over twice more often observed in boys with ADHD than in control group.

ADHD remains strongly associated with increased prevalence of overweight [later in life].http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24633695

Who decided what to feed children ?

-*-

ADDers have a different metabolic profile.
ADDers are stress (blood glucose elevation) sensitive.
ADDers are particularly (di)stress sensitive.
PTSD sufferers will be highly enriched for ADHD.

If ADHD is a pre-requisite for PTSD (could well be true!) - then that's telling us something interesting about the mind.

I'd suggest (guess) - that if the ADDer mind is seen as completely connected, and the nonADDer mind as not so - then the ADDer mind will be irreversibly damaged (in its entirety) by a severely stressful event - though the nonADDer mind will be able to cut out - without loss of 'basic' integrity - that stressful event.

Imagine 10 ladders against a wall - pull 1 down and the other 9 will remain.
Connect 10 ladders against a wall - pull 1 down and the other 9 will fall also.

Global logical consistency.

Fortune
04-25-14, 07:03 AM
and genetics

genetics is important

it appears the same genetics may be responsible for adhd as ptsd

Given the interpretation that a higher rate of PTSD among people with ADHD than people without as "you need ADHD to develop PTSD" I'm going to take this with a huge grain of salt.

The link does not actually state that PTSD and ADHD share specific genetics, but that PTSD shares genetics with other disorders which possibly include ADHD (but that's not stated in the link, so...consider me skeptical again).

amtram,

a lot of people experience traumatic events

do you think everyone who experiences traumatic events develop ptsd?

if not, why not?

The answer to this question is not "because only people who have ADHD develop PTSD."

Another high risk for PTSD (aside from being a veteran who has seen combat) is living in poverty, in inner city areas - this is an even higher risk than veterans experience. One cannot reduce PTSD to such a narrow etiology as "you only develop it if you have ADHD" and expect it to make sense. If this were true, it would have actually been noticed.

daveddd
04-25-14, 07:08 AM
also remember when i refer to adhd , I'm not referring to the dsm syndrome , but the more fitting definition of self regulation , mainly emotional regulation (barkley)

you may have to look up a paragraph or two to find adhd mentioned specifically


so you think mental illness is more environment and not really genetics?

daveddd
04-25-14, 09:11 AM
It's not ADHD is a pre requisite for PTSD


It's they have the same pre requisite

Amtram
04-25-14, 11:19 AM
amtram,

a lot of people experience traumatic events

do you think everyone who experiences traumatic events develop ptsd?

if not, why not?

I'm not arguing against that. There are a number of studies of PTSD that show potential genetic bases of vulnerability. What I'm disagreeing with is that ADHD is a prerequisite, and that the study you linked says that. It says that something about the emotional vulnerability of people with ADHD also makes them more susceptible to PTSD, not that PTSD cannot exist without the presence of ADHD.

daveddd
04-25-14, 12:29 PM
Yea it's more of what I said above you

That seems to be the direction