View Full Version : Comparing Animal Emotion as discussion for Treatment of ADHD


mildadhd
04-24-14, 11:15 PM
-Primary level of treatment for ADHD, (before birth*).

-Secondary level of treatment for ADHD, (before the age of 4*).

-Tertiary level of treatment for ADHD, (after the age of 4-7-12-15-adulthood*).


*(Give or Take)


Medication is an effective tertiary level treatment option, for many people with ADHD*.

I think there are also some affective treatment options possible, before the tertiary level of treatment.





P

mildadhd
04-25-14, 12:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYwTmaUQmoY

ginniebean
04-25-14, 01:37 AM
You actually need to have a diagnosis before the age of 4 to have ADHD. It's not ADHD without a diagnosis.

My guess is this is an extremely rare occurance.

mildadhd
04-25-14, 02:18 AM
What Dogs Need: PLAY and SEEKING



Dog fears and aggression can be hard to figure out sometimes, but dog joy isn't.

Just about anyone who's lived with a dog knows what dogs like.

In terms of the core emotions, dogs need:


social contact so their PANIC system doesn't get activated


games and play with their owners to activate the SEEKING system


interesting things to do--especially long walks--that arouse the SEEKING system



We've already talked about a dog's social needs.

Dogs should not be left alone all day long cooped up in a house or an apartment, and they certainly should't be left inside a crate for hours on end.

If the house is going to be empty during the day, you should either buy another dog or find a good doggie day-care or both.

Another good arrangement would be to leave your dog with a neighbor who stays home during the day.

Patricia McConnell says dogs need social companionship almost as much as they need food and water. (*53)


New scientific research published after the hardcover edition of this book was printed clearly shows that dogs have been selected to be more socially aware of human signals than wolves.

The journal Science published an article titled "Going to the Dogs," which covered the rapidly expanding field of canine cognition.

This research reinforces McConnell's view that dogs need social companionship.

Dogs that live in animal shelters need at least forty-five minutes of play and exercise time with a person every day.

My graduate student Christa Coppola conducted a study in an animal shelter.

Her study indicated that when a dog had been played with for forty-five minutes its cortisol (stress) hormone was lower the next day.

Unfortunately, the cortisol levels returned to sky-high levels if the play period was not repeated.

Dogs in animal shelters need volunteers to play and socially interact with them every day. (*54)


Dogs especially need the PLAY system to be stimulated because they never grow up all the way.

All juvenile animals play more than adults.

So, if you can afford it, you should buy plenty of toys for your dog, and you should rotate the toys the same way people rotate toys for their kids.

Old toys are boring; new toys are fun.

That's the rule.

You should also play with your dog every day.

If your dog likes to chase balls, that's great; if he likes to play tug of war, that's another good game.


Dogs probably have high SEEKING needs because they are descended from wolves, and wolves are nomadic animals that get a lot of mental stimulation during the day and make a lot of decisions.

There is nothing dogs like more than a long walk, unless it's getting loose outside the yard and talking off for a day on their own or with a doggie friend.


A friend of mine once ran into her dog when he and the neighbor dog were on the loose.

She was riding bikes with her eleven-year-old son and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, there were two dogs, running along beside them.

The dogs greeted them with huge, relaxed, open-mouth dog grins, ran alongside them for a little way, then took off up a hill, running as fast as they could.

They looked like they were having the time of their lives

Since dogs don't have many opportunities to roam free these days, it's up to you to give your dog enough mental stimulation to keep his mind busy.

Dogs have to have a daily walk, and I think it's a good idea to take those walks someplace where your dogs can be off the leash, if possible.

They'll get a lot more exercise and do a lot more investigating and exploring that way, which is what they need to activate the SEEKING system.(*55)

Patricia McConnell says dogs need at least an hour a day of attention from their owners, and that's just the average.

Working breeds need huge amounts of exercise.

Your one hour a day could be a one-hour walk, or, if you don't have the energy for that, you could break it down into three parts: a half-hour walk, fifteen minutes of play, and fifteen minutes learning new tricks.


Teaching dogs new tricks is especially important for exercising their minds and activating the SEEKING emotion.

Some high-energy dogs love to do agility training and you may want to join a local dog training group, or set up some equipment such as jumps and tunnels in your yard

Dogs need people, play, and lots of opportunities to explore and learn, and they can't provide these things for themselves.


That's your job


Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", P 64-66.


i!i

Drogheda
04-25-14, 02:23 AM
I'm so sorry, but do you understand the extent of ADHD? I understand that you do not like the idea of drugs as a first response to ADHD, but doing what you are doing right now is just.... trivial.

let me ask you, is there any way in the world you would be able to know if your kid was better before or after meds if they didn't try them?

the overwhelming response to that answer is that that kids do better at everything with meds. it's a lot better than the alternative.

Fuzzy12
04-25-14, 02:24 AM
You actually need to have a diagnosis before the age of 4 to have ADHD. It's not ADHD without a diagnosis.

My guess is this is an extremely rare occurance.

Aren't you born with adhd? Maybe c it can't be diagnosed before age 4 and maybe symptoms won't manifest for a few years but wouldn't you still have adhd? I mean adhd doesn't suddenly start with a diagnosis right?

ginniebean
04-25-14, 02:41 AM
Aren't you born with adhd? Maybe c it can't be diagnosed before age 4 and maybe symptoms won't manifest for a few years but wouldn't you still have adhd? I mean adhd doesn't suddenly start with a diagnosis right?


Yes, the condition is pre-existing but it can't be differentiated until developmental lag occurs. That means as developmental milestones begin to lag behind peers in self control, impulsivity and inattention.

For a disorder to exist there has to be impairment. It's rare for a child under 4 to be so impaired as to receive a diagnosis.

A disorder is a clinical definition. There is no name for any predisposition.


You can't treat a clinical condition if you don't have a diagnosis for one.

How would a parent know they're 1-2-3 yr old has any condition at all? Most parents don't notice until the teachers start complaining.


If parents don't know prior what's to treat?



I don't understand why information about DOGS takes precedence over established reseach on adhd children. That just blows my mind.

mildadhd
04-25-14, 03:03 AM
All animals and people have the same core emotion systems in the brain.

Most pet owners probably already believe this, but I find that a lot of executives, plant managers, and even some veterinarians and researchers still don't believe that animals have emotions.

The first thing I tell them is that the same psychiatric medications, such as Prozac, that work for humans also work for animals.(*3)

Unless you are an expert, when you dissect a pig's brain it's difficult to tell the difference between the lower-down parts of the animal's brain and the lower-down parts of the human brain.(*4)

Human beings have a much bigger neocortex, but the core emotions aren't located in the neocortex.

They're in the lower-down part of the brain.




When people are suffering mentally, they want to feel better--they want to stop having bad emotions and start having good emotions.

That's the right goal with animals too..


Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", P 5.


i!i

Fuzzy12
04-25-14, 03:17 AM
Yes, the condition is pre-existing but it can't be differentiated until developmental lag occurs. That means as developmental milestones begin to lag behind peers in self control, impulsivity and inattention.

For a disorder to exist there has to be impairment. It's rare for a child under 4 to be so impaired as to receive a diagnosis.

A disorder is a clinical definition. There is no name for any predisposition.


You can't treat a clinical condition if you don't have a diagnosis for one.

How would a parent know they're 1-2-3 yr old has any condition at all? Most parents don't notice until the teachers start complaining.


If parents don't know prior what's to treat?



I don't understand why information about DOGS takes precedence over established reseach on adhd children. That just blows my mind.

I know you can't cure or prevent adhd but I wonder of there s amything that can be done at this very young age in the hope of making life a bit easier later in case the child starts showing symptoms. You woUldn't know if it will but you can estimate the risk if one or both parents have adhd. It's not exactly treatment but for instance could you use different learning or training techniques? Or is there a way to try to prevent bad habits and unhealthy copong mechanism that mane adhders pick up? But then what if those techniques are geared towards adhd and the kid turns out to not have adhd?

If nothing else I guess it's good to keep in mind that your child might have adhd and show him understanding and patience from early age on. I guess ideally all kids should have that but maybe other kids don't need it as desperately as an adhd kid.

maybe at that early age treatment could just consist of looking out for symptoms so that of necessary the child geta diagnosed and starts receiving some form of treatment as soon as possible.

fracturedstory
04-25-14, 06:22 AM
You actually need to have a diagnosis before the age of 4 to have ADHD. It's not ADHD without a diagnosis.

My guess is this is an extremely rare occurance.

I know a boy who was diagnosed as young as 2 with ADHD.

I babysat him around this time. He ended up running away from me, going to a beach and taking all his clothes off.

I guess it's not unusual for a two year old to take their clothes off but it just illustrated how much I lost control of the situation.

He would just not stop moving, ever. Had some ODD behaviour too.

fracturedstory
04-25-14, 06:23 AM
So Peripheral, are you saying people with ADHD are like dogs or...what?

If I was ever going to compare myself to an animal it would be a cat. Independent, self-absorbed, only spends time with you if it can get something out of it and is a creature of habit. I also get bored easily and start batting things with my hand.

daveddd
04-25-14, 06:27 AM
I know you can't cure or prevent adhd but I wonder of there s amything that can be done at this very young age in the hope of making life a bit easier later in case the child starts showing symptoms. You woUldn't know if it will but you can estimate the risk if one or both parents have adhd. It's not exactly treatment but for instance could you use different learning or training techniques? Or is there a way to try to prevent bad habits and unhealthy copong mechanism that mane adhders pick up? But then what if those techniques are geared towards adhd and the kid turns out to not have adhd?

If nothing else I guess it's good to keep in mind that your child might have adhd and show him understanding and patience from early age on. I guess ideally all kids should have that but maybe other kids don't need it as desperately as an adhd kid.

maybe at that early age treatment could just consist of looking out for symptoms so that of necessary the child geta diagnosed and starts receiving some form of treatment as soon as possible.

i agree

there is a huge difference with what we are born with, and what is described as adult adhd


one is much worse than the other

Lunacie
04-25-14, 08:54 AM
I know a boy who was diagnosed as young as 2 with ADHD.

I babysat him around this time. He ended up running away from me, going to a beach and taking all his clothes off.

I guess it's not unusual for a two year old to take their clothes off but it just illustrated how much I lost control of the situation.

He would just not stop moving, ever. Had some ODD behaviour too.

If I had known what to look for I would have recognized symptoms in my granddaughter as young as age 2 and a half.

Looking back, I can see a lot of symptoms by the time she was 3.5.
But of course, since she's a girl, it was very difficult to get teachers to fill out a Connor's eval before she was 10.

By then the ODD was terrible. But it was the self-loathing was really heart-breaking for her mom and me to see.

Stevuke79
04-25-14, 09:09 AM
I know you can't cure or prevent adhd but I wonder of there s amything that can be done at this very young age in the hope of making life a bit easier later in case the child starts showing symptoms. You woUldn't know if it will but you can estimate the risk if one or both parents have adhd. It's not exactly treatment but for instance could you use different learning or training techniques? Or is there a way to try to prevent bad habits and unhealthy copong mechanism that mane adhders pick up? But then what if those techniques are geared towards adhd and the kid turns out to not have adhd?

If nothing else I guess it's good to keep in mind that your child might have adhd and show him understanding and patience from early age on. I guess ideally all kids should have that but maybe other kids don't need it as desperately as an adhd kid.

maybe at that early age treatment could just consist of looking out for symptoms so that of necessary the child geta diagnosed and starts receiving some form of treatment as soon as possible.
:goodpost:
i agree

there is a huge difference with what we are born with, and what is described as adult adhd


one is much worse than the other:goodpost:

No one thinks we should rush to medicate kids. But as fuzzy said with a kid you must first take great care to get other factors such as coping mechanisms under control.

I would add (and forgive me if I'm putting words in anyone's mouth) that the reason we should take our time before medicating kids is not because meds aren't a great option, they are. But with a kid it takes real care and time to get every other factor under control.

Lunacie
04-25-14, 09:53 AM
:goodpost:
:goodpost:

No one thinks we should rush to medicate kids. But as fuzzy said with a kid you must first take great care to get other factors such as coping mechanisms under control.

I would add (and forgive me if I'm putting words in anyone's mouth) that the reason we should take our time before medicating kids is not because meds aren't a great option, they are. But with a kid it takes real care and time to get every other factor under control.


Maybe I'm not following what you mean about coping mechanisms?

Kids already know what to do, but the ADHD prevents them from doing what they know.

Giving them meds makes them able to practice doing what they know, so that those things can become coping mechanisms.

daveddd
04-25-14, 10:01 AM
Kids with ADHD do not learn emotional regulation

Instead they utilize other coping mechanisms to deal with strong emotions

Acting out is one of many

Stevuke79
04-25-14, 10:49 AM
Maybe I'm not following what you mean about coping mechanisms?

Kids already know what to do, but the ADHD prevents them from doing what they know.

Giving them meds makes them able to practice doing what they know, so that those things can become coping mechanisms.

Kids with ADHD do not learn emotional regulation

Instead they utilize other coping mechanisms to deal with strong emotions

Acting out is one of many

I think you and Daviddd are both right.

I simply think that because an adult has the life experience to recognize and tell you how he's feeling, and with kids your more dependent upon observing how they behave, it's important to nail down diet, health, exercise, environment,.. and other issues so we can accurately observe them. In other words, with an adult you can depend on the patient to sift through this himself.

Both of course, will (often) need meds to cope. But a kid can't as easily tell you what he's coping with so it's more of a process to diagnose and prescribe.

Dizfriz
04-25-14, 10:53 AM
I know you can't cure or prevent adhd but I wonder of there s amything that can be done at this very young age in the hope of making life a bit easier later in case the child starts showing symptoms.

Excellent question and thanks for asking it.

Yes there is. The parent(s) can start on a program of ADHD related behavior management at a very early age. In a simplified version I have seen it effective beginning at ages around 18 months to two years old.

What this can do is set the foundation for managing ADHD behaviors early on. If the kid doesn't turn out to be ADHD, a good foundation for self management is in place and will work for any child.

On the age of diagnosis, it is hard to diagnose ADHD at four unless the behaviors are extreme. Below that they would have to be *very* extreme but a clinician might say that it is very probable that a two year old will be diagnosed later as ADHD but not make the actual diagnoses until the child was older.

Dizfriz

Amtram
04-25-14, 10:58 AM
Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", P 64-66.


i!i

People are not dogs. You can observe dogs and then test to see if there are similarities to people. You absolutely cannot observe dogs and immediately progress to "Ergo, equally applicable to humans."

Amtram
04-25-14, 11:16 AM
ginnie and Fuzzy both have good points - yes, you're born with it, there may be subtle or obvious symptoms early on, but it isn't technically a "disorder" until it starts causing problems. For some children, like the one fracturedstory mentioned, it most certainly does cause problems before school starts. And as Dizfriz mentions, there are interventions that can help that don't involve medication, especially at an early age.

daveddd mentioned acting out, and not only is that a coping mechanism, but it's also a common behavior of even NT kids. Steveuke rightly points out that it is difficult for a child to communicate his feelings, which makes it difficult to know whether a medication is helping or not. Lunacie and I both agree that there are early signs that we often see in retrospect, and teaching about those would be really helpful in early interventions.

While I agree with Drogheda about the importance of taking advantage of medications, my feeling is that until the child is better able to communicate and the parent is better able to evaluate his response to medication, medication should be delayed except in cases in which the dysfunction is severe enough that it would be ill-advised to withhold it.

ginniebean
04-25-14, 01:41 PM
I was diagnosed at 4 Yrs old in the late 60's. I was not a dog, and referencing information about dogs to "prevent my adhd" creeps me out.

It is amazing to me that 45 years later with as much research as we have now that none of that research matters except for adults with adhd who CAN take meds to tell others how unimportant meds are. Stop taking them and be a dog if you want. Roll in the grass if it makes your adhd better.

I am so often filled with despair over the state of ignorance that hurts children over and over.

When I was little "common" wisdom was set them outside to run and play like puppies they just need more exercise. Almost 50 ******* years of research later and this is the level we've reached? Education is going so slow we're going backwards.

I used to spend days, sometimes weeks crafting a post to make sure Good information got out. Because I ******* CARED. Now? What's the ******* point? So it can be used as a platform for arguing 50 year old outdated wisdom?

Well support is only for SOME people. What matters to others... what ev!

Not being able to have an adult conversation about medication and children on an adhd forum without the implied moralisms and condescending trivia is so damn sad.

Oh and yes, I'm supposed to "know better" unlike others so yep.. my know better broke along with my ******* give a damn. So go ahead and "support" me.

Amtram
04-25-14, 02:08 PM
Yeah, the comparisons to dogs. . .or rats. . .is insulting as well as only marginally relevant.

mildadhd
04-25-14, 07:12 PM
Side Note: any information not quoted is my own subjective interpretation, please leave room for learning. (-Peripheral)


So Peripheral, are you saying people with ADHD are like dogs or...what?

If I was ever going to compare myself to an animal it would be a cat. Independent, self-absorbed, only spends time with you if it can get something out of it and is a creature of habit. I also get bored easily and start batting things with my hand.

Hi FracturedStory,

The origin of the raw basic instinctual primary emotional circuits, are the same for all mammals including, cats and humans.

I will provide more information about humans, ADHD and PLAY, as the discussion progresses and the understanding of basic emotions that the high brain functions are built upon, becomes more familiar.

I thought beginning the discussion with dog research would help people who unfamiliar with affective neuroscience, to understand the goal of affective neuroscience, a little better.

I will post more information about these topics in the future for clarity.

Cats and PLAY...

(p 99) The key to animal welfare is to keep the positive emotions systems such as PLAY and SEEKING turned on and to keep the negative emotion sytems--RAGE, FEAR, and PANIC--turned off as much as possible.

Turning on a cat's SEEKING system for PLAY is easy.

Cats like anything that moves because cats are hunters, and a hunter's brain is triggered by movement.

You just have to keep them supplied with toys that move.

One thing you have to be careful about is never to let a kitten play-hunt by jumping on your hand.

That will be dangerous when the kitten grows up.

Use a toy on a string or the little feather duster wand I described earlier to play with your kitten so that your hand does not get scratched.


-Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", P 99.




Primary basic instinctual emotion systems, SEEKING, FEAR, RAGE, LUST, CARE, GRIEF/PANIC, PLAY, raw affective consciousness is present are birth, in all mammals, including humans, dogs, cats, polar bears, pigs, and all other mammals.

These 7 basic emotional systems/circuits are interconnected and communicate with each other, and originate in the lower subcortical brain stem areas.

It is extremely important for everyone to realize at birth, and before the age of 4*, affective consciousness in dominant.

On top of the lower subcortex, after the age of 4-7-12-15-adulthood*, cognitive conscious develops, in a "seesaw" relationship between lower subcortex and higher cortex, balancing out, during normal healthy development.

Consciousness before the age of 4, is primarily affective, not cognitive.

The natural lower brain affective consciousness circuits/systems are more mature, and the natural higher cortical cognitive consciousness circuits/systems are less mature, before the age of 4.

(P 4) "..normal behaviors evolved to satisfy the core emotions.

When a hen hides to lay her eggs, the hiding behavior turns off fear.

But if you can't give an animal the freedom to act naturally, then you should think about how to satisfy the emotion that motivates the behavior by giving the animal other things to do.

Focus on the emotion, not the behavior."



Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", P 4.

Dizfriz
04-25-14, 08:52 PM
Side Note: any information not quoted is my own subjective interpretation, please leave room for learning. (-Peripheral)




Hi FracturedStory,

The origin of the raw basic instinctual primary emotional circuits, are the same for all mammals including, cats and humans.

I will provide more information about humans, ADHD and PLAY, as the discussion progresses and the understanding of basic emotions that the high brain functions are built upon, becomes more familiar.

I thought beginning the discussion with dog research would help people who unfamiliar with affective neuroscience, to understand the goal of affective neuroscience, a little better.

I will post more information about these topics in the future for clarity.

Cats and PLAY...




Primary basic instinctual emotion systems, SEEKING, FEAR, RAGE, LUST, CARE, GRIEF/PANIC, PLAY, raw affective consciousness is present are birth, in all mammals, including humans, dogs, cats, polar bears, pigs, and all other mammals.

These 7 basic emotional systems/circuits are interconnected and communicate with each other, and originate in the lower subcortical brain stem areas.

It is extremely important for everyone to realize at birth, and before the age of 4*, affective consciousness in dominant.

On top of the lower subcortex, after the age of 4-7-12-15-adulthood*, cognitive conscious develops, in a "seesaw" relationship between lower subcortex and higher cortex, balancing out, during normal healthy development.

Consciousness before the age of 4, is primarily affective, not cognitive.

The natural lower brain affective consciousness circuits/systems are more mature, and the natural higher cortical cognitive consciousness circuits/systems are less mature, before the age of 4.

What does this have to do with the treatment of ADHD?

Dizfriz

someothertime
04-25-14, 08:58 PM
I am extremely conflicted on this topic...

One thing that did occur to me though, is that by having "mainstream" attentiveness to behavioral "flags"..... and certain prescribed "do not"/"do" parenting/schooling/structural advise....

It would provide the most achievable non-invasive and far reaching benefit to our family.

Getting systems to interact with families in such a manner would take a mass voice or persuasive leadership. Health systems need to be syncopated somewhat with education systems and undertake a mentality shift from one of cure to one of prevention. An approach that moves away from strict categorisations at such young ages and incorporates much, much more "pro-active" behavioural and environment intervention.

Everybody benefits... now..... where are those super brilliant leaders? ;)

SB_UK
04-25-14, 11:35 PM
RAGE, FEAR, and PANICRage, fear and panic in man are (in the very vast majority of cases) caused by the behaviours of other wo/men.

Fear - living under a tyrant (teacher, boss)
Panic - believing that the 1%, tyrant, teacher, boss - ie individual above you in any hierarchical structure is displeased with your actions.
Rage - 'we are the 99%'; inevitable reaction to living under some dictatorship (tyrant, teacher, boss ... ... parent).

As far as I can see - the thinking mind (morality) has gained control of the ADDers' emotions and is hooked on equality (material world) as the only moral/rational/logical option.

So - the commonality is in hierarchical systems (of the material world ie power over other man partic. wrt survival (ie money acquisition (as a surrogate for food/shelter)) leading to rage/fear/panic in man.

SB_UK
04-25-14, 11:47 PM
Development lag in ADHD - very real.
'we take longer to learn better' - increased connectivity - requiring time ... ...

Not keeping up at school - not an option.
Of course, ADDers aren't ready - 3 yr developmental delay.

Crippled because of an inflexible educational system.

No education available - no work available - no money available.

Self-medication using all of the mechanisms we've described on site; premature death.

-*-

All down to the inflexibility of the educational system, the relationship between certificates and workplace (money) and the absolute necessity for money to survive.

-*-

Post above - aimed at power.
This post - money.

The love of money, power ... ... ...

SB_UK
04-25-14, 11:57 PM
As far as I can see.

Human beings do something called thinking - thinking is meant to gain control of your emotions ie so that you feel sad when it's logical/rational/moral to do so and feel happy when it's logical/rational/moral to do so.

Unfortunately - there's another basis for feeling happy and sad - and it's pretty much the opposite of the 'thinking' wo/man's emotional control system - and this other mechanism feels happy when other people suffer, and feels sad when other people do well.

2 opposing reward systems.

ADDers to the rescue ! through not having the selfish (primitive, older, Schadenfreude) reward system - we display emotional regulation issues ie react the wrong way, have what is called an inappropriate emotional reaction - when we're forced to pursue systems which are rewarding to the Schadenfreude reward system ie competition.

To feel good when we beat another person -<- Privimitive reward system.

Adder dysfunctional when s/he tries - because what's the point ? ie no motivation/reward hence cannot comply.

Society is built on the worship of practices which gain their power by virtue of the selfish reward system - and so our engagement in these practices results in a negative emotional outcome ... ... 'stress' ... ... SNS/cortisol resistance and disease.

To SNS/cortisol resistance - stimulant supplies that bit extra - we find that appetite suppression is reversed, also well known effects in asthma/allergy ie SNS agonists used to treat asthma and hay fever. Positive effects on ADD of hayfever meds (pseudoephedrine) - lovely calm feeling, drowsiness - stimulant medication - ref. paradoxical effect of stimulants in ADDers.

We're stimulant resistant - through distress and so need to supplement.

How do we reverse all hormone/neurot resistance syndromes ?
Stop.

ie reduce blood glucose for Ins resistance, reduce fat for Lep resistance, reduce distress for SNS/cortisol resistance.

Increase SNS/cortisol sensitivity by eustress ? I think that'd work.

SB_UK
04-26-14, 12:11 AM
Cortisol -> Histone acetylation (reversal) - eliminates histone acetylation
Cortisol -> Stress -> Oxidative stress
Beta hydroxybutyrate -> HDAC inhibitor -> Anti-oxidant therefore combats oxidative stress -> promotes histone acetylation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085866/
Glucocorticoids suppress the multiple inflammatory genes that are activated in chronic inflammatory diseases, such as asthma, by reversing histone acetylation of activated inflammatory genes through binding of ligand-bound glucocorticoid receptors (GR) to co-activator molecules and recruitment of histone deacetylase-2 to the activated inflammatory gene transcription complex (trans-repression). At higher concentrations of glucocorticoids GR homodimers interact with DNA recognition sites to activate transcription through increased histone acetylation of anti-inflammatory genes and transcription of several genes linked to glucocorticoid side effects (trans-activation). So what causes excess cortisol production ? Distress ? Negative effects of rage/fear/panic ?

Social structure (hierarchy in material world areas).

mildadhd
04-26-14, 04:52 PM
..Many children with ADD are subjected to overt disapproval and public shaming in the classroom for behaviors they do not consciously choose.

These children are not purposively inattentive or disobedient.

There are emotional and neurophysiological forces at play that do the actual deciding for them...

-Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", P 15.


Dizfriz,

I am focusing on understanding the development of the emotional "neurophysiological forces", involved in ADHD, before the age of 4*

The basic PLAY system emotional response, is one of seven unconditioned emotional responses, that higher learning and cognitive processes are built upon, in early life.

These seven raw basic emotional systems are CAPITALIZED to recognize that they are primary emotion systems that originate deep in the subcortex brain stem areas. (as apposed to more subjective higher secondary and tertiary emotional terminology)

In this thread am focusing on discussing affective treatments for ADHD, before the age of 4*.

By birth til about the age of 4*, lower basic affective emotion systems are more mature, than higher cognitive systems.

Learning and cognitive functions are built upon emotional experiences, throughout life, and especially in early life.

Up to now in this thread, except for a brief over view of the seven basic primary emotions, I have been mostly focusing on the SEEKING and PLAY unconditioned emotional responses, for many reasons, one being that these primary emotion systems involve the same dopamine systems involved in ADHD. (From the brain stem branching threw out the brain to the frontal cortex)

I hope to present/discuss/learn more about affective treatments for ADHD, before the age 4*, as the discussion continues.


See this link, for more a wider discussion/charts/emotional neurophysiological overview focusing on all of the 7 complex unconditioned emotional responses. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1641830#post1641830)


P

ginniebean
04-26-14, 05:20 PM
Dizfriz,

I am focusing on understanding the development of the emotional "neurophysiological forces", involved in ADHD, before the age of 4*

The basic PLAY system emotional response, is one of seven unconditioned emotional responses, that higher learning and cognitive processes are built upon, in early life.

These seven raw basic emotional systems are CAPITALIZED to recognize that they are primary emotion systems that originate deep in the subcortex brain stem areas. (as apposed to more subjective higher secondary and tertiary emotional terminology)

In this thread am focusing on discussing affective treatments for ADHD, before the age of 4*.

By birth til about the age of 4*, lower basic affective emotion systems are more mature, than higher cognitive systems.

Learning and cognitive functions are built upon emotional experiences, throughout life, and especially in early life.

Up to now in this thread, except for a brief over view of the seven basic primary emotions, I have been mostly focusing on the SEEKING and PLAY unconditioned emotional responses, for many reasons, one being that both these systems are driven by, and involve some of the same dopamine systems involved in ADHD. (From the brain stem branching threw out the brain to the frontal cortex)

I hope to present/discuss/learn more about affective treatments for ADHD, before the age 4*, as the discussion continues.


See this link, for more a wider discussion/charts/emotional neurophysiological overview focusing on all of the 7 complex unconditioned emotional responses. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1641830#post1641830)


P


Your topic header says TREATMENT for children under 4) It doesn't say anything about "I'm trying to figure out unconditioned emotional response theory"


RED HERRING unless the farmers almanac can now be used as a tool for patents on how to raise a child who may have adhd.

Lunacie
04-26-14, 05:29 PM
Good, I'm not the only one who isn't seeing any connection in some of this stuff.

Like the link from Dr. Mate about children in school. Very few children under the age of 4 are in school.

ginniebean
04-26-14, 05:34 PM
I don't know Lunacie. Is the link something to do with parents going to the pet store to get information about how to raise children who might have adhd. It is very confusing.

Dizfriz
04-26-14, 05:50 PM
Dizfriz,

I am focusing on understanding the development of the emotional "neurophysiological forces", involved in ADHD, before the age of 4*

The basic PLAY system emotional response, is one of seven unconditioned emotional responses, that higher learning and cognitive processes are built upon, in early life.

These seven raw basic emotional systems are CAPITALIZED to recognize that they are primary emotion systems that originate deep in the subcortex brain stem areas. (as apposed to more subjective higher secondary and tertiary emotional terminology)

In this thread am focusing on discussing affective treatments for ADHD, before the age of 4*.

By birth til about the age of 4*, lower basic affective emotion systems are more mature, than higher cognitive systems.

Learning and cognitive functions are built upon emotional experiences, throughout life, and especially in early life.

Up to now in this thread, except for a brief over view of the seven basic primary emotions, I have been mostly focusing on the SEEKING and PLAY unconditioned emotional responses, for many reasons, one being that these primary emotion systems involve the same dopamine systems involved in ADHD. (From the brain stem branching threw out the brain to the frontal cortex)

I hope to present/discuss/learn more about affective treatments for ADHD, before the age 4*, as the discussion continues.


See this link, for more a wider discussion/charts/emotional neurophysiological overview focusing on all of the 7 complex unconditioned emotional responses. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1641830#post1641830)


P
But what does it have to do with the treatment of ADHD?

Dizfriz

Amtram
04-26-14, 06:05 PM
What does this have to do with the treatment of ADHD?

Dizfriz

And why is it relevant to compare us to cats now when we've already objected to being compared to dogs and rats? Are we going to run through non-human mammals until something sticks?

ginniebean
04-26-14, 06:10 PM
Well kids with adhd are nothing but mammals let's do it like they do on the discovery channel. (treatment that is)

Amtram
04-26-14, 06:11 PM
Dizfriz,

I am focusing on understanding the development of the emotional "neurophysiological forces", involved in ADHD, before the age of 4*

The basic PLAY system emotional response, is one of seven unconditioned emotional responses, that higher learning and cognitive processes are built upon, in early life.

These seven raw basic emotional systems are CAPITALIZED to recognize that they are primary emotion systems that originate deep in the subcortex brain stem areas. (as apposed to more subjective higher secondary and tertiary emotional terminology)

In this thread am focusing on discussing affective treatments for ADHD, before the age of 4*.




P

No, what it appears that you're doing is trying to fit reality into a conclusion you've already decided upon, not actually working towards understanding. If you want to understand something, you look at the evidence, and develop a hypothesis based on the evidence, then change your expectations based on the evidence. The conclusion comes after all of that, not before.

mildadhd
04-26-14, 06:14 PM
GinnieBean, Dizfriz, Amtram, Lunacie..

If your not interested in discussing "affective treatments for ADHD, before the age of 4*", that I mentioned I was interested in discussing, in the OP, please find another thread.

There are some extremely interesting and insightful posts by Fuzzy12 and Someothertime that I would like to reply to, instead of trying to argue topics you are clearly not interested in learning, or acknowledging the existence of.

Life doesn't begin at age 4.

I am not interested in forcing or tricking anyone, or replying to people not interested.

I thought it was very clear that I am discussing affective neuroscience and affective terms/examples/quotes, so far throughout this thread.




P

ginniebean
04-26-14, 06:23 PM
Peripheral, when it comes to treatment of children I am VERY interested. Your interest in my posts is irrelevant on an open forum. As far as I know as long as we stay ON TOPIC everyone is welcome to post.

I expressed my confusion as to what treatment recommendations are being made. Answer or don't answer, not my problem.

Amtram
04-26-14, 06:29 PM
It's very difficult to discuss something that has no evidential support, especially when the goalposts keep getting moved. It's not a discussion if it consists entirely of "this is what I think, tell me why I'm right."

ginniebean
04-26-14, 06:31 PM
Can you show any in use affective treatments for children suspected of having adhd. Any studies on children suspected of having adhd. What is the efficacy of these treatments. Are they now standard recommendation? Where can a parent access this treatment.

Is there any treatment Available, if not is it treatment?

Dizfriz
04-26-14, 06:45 PM
GinnieBean, Dizfriz, Amtram, Lunacie..

If your not interested in discussing "affective treatments for ADHD, before the age of 4*", that I mentioned I was interested in discussing, in the OP, please find another thread.

There are some extremely interesting and insightful posts by Fuzzy12 and Someothertime that I would like to reply to, instead of trying to argue topics you are clearly not interested in learning, or acknowledging the existence of.

Life doesn't begin at age 4.

I am not interested in forcing or tricking anyone, or replying to people not interested.

I thought it was very clear that I am discussing affective neuroscience and affective terms/examples/quotes, so far throughout this thread.
P

I am very interested in treatment for ADHD in kids of any age and I posted in some detail on that subject.

What I don't understand is how your posts in this tread related to treating ADHD. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you but I don't see the connection between your posts and treatment. Perhaps you could explain a little more detail what are the treatments alluded to with your "affective treatments for ADHD, before the age of 4*"

Just what are these treatments? How could they be put into a treatment plan for a child?

Dizfriz

Lunacie
04-26-14, 06:55 PM
Peripheral, I am very interested in discussing "affective treatments for ADHD, before the age of 4*",

I don't understand how your seemingly random quotes have anything to do with treatment.

Could you explain the relevance of your posts on "affective neuroscience and affective terms/examples/quotes"
to the treatment of ADHD before the age of 4?

ginniebean
04-26-14, 07:32 PM
I know you can't cure or prevent adhd but I wonder of there s amything that can be done at this very young age in the hope of making life a bit easier later in case the child starts showing symptoms. You woUldn't know if it will but you can estimate the risk if one or both parents have adhd. It's not exactly treatment but for instance could you use different learning or training techniques? Or is there a way to try to prevent bad habits and unhealthy copong mechanism that mane adhders pick up? But then what if those techniques are geared towards adhd and the kid turns out to not have adhd?

It is pretty standard for parent training classes to be recommended. Also, there are any number of peer support groups in the community to exchange information and strategies. It's not like no one has thought of this.

There is a LOT of help available, like anything else.. that's up to the parents.


maybe at that early age treatment could just consist of looking out for symptoms so that of necessary the child geta diagnosed and starts receiving some form of treatment as soon as possible.


Sure I certainly could recommend any number of good adhd resources for parents who suspect their child might have adhd.

Dopes1
04-26-14, 08:22 PM
If your not interested in discussing "affective treatments for ADHD, before the age of 4*", that I mentioned I was interested in discussing, in the OP, please find another thread.



That kind of reminds me of seeing a thread called, "When parents ask your opinion to help their ADHD child what do you say?", and seeing someone deciding to argue that food colourings have a plethora of possible adverse reactions that THEY suffered from and fallaciously stating that it's proof dietary modification is necessary for kids with ADHD.

How come when other people ask you to actually explain all the things you happen to quote and what you think they mean to you, you have a hissy fit?

It's called critique. Much of it seems to be fair, too.

mildadhd
04-26-14, 10:12 PM
ADHD and Play

..Play: Free play, in which children develop their own activities, including rough-and-tumble activities that, as the term play implies, involves physical activity such as running, jumping, play fighting, and wrestling, are increasingly recognized as essential components of a child’s development.

Both human and animal studies have provided evidence that periods of play improve social skills, impulse inhibition and attention (Panksepp, 2007; Pellis et al., 2010) and result in specific neurochemical and dendritic changes in many neurons (Bell et al., 2010; Panksepp, 2008), especially in those brain areas in which ADHD children are deficient.

Therefore, long-term provision of more opportunities for physical play may be an effective, non-medicinal therapy for reducing some of the disruptive behaviors of ADHD and facilitating brain development in children diagnosed with ADHD..

..Given the known side effects of stimulants and the lack of knowledge regarding their immediate and long-term brain effects, more targeted research is required.

In the meantime, caution should be used when determining whether to medicate ADHD children, perhaps with an emphasis on non-drug interventions such as play before moving to medication as a last resort.

Indeed, it is best that children have a regular “diet” of play from their earliest years, with enough adult supervision to assure that naughty behaviors can be discouraged, and hence the positive benefits of play can be consolidated into lasting adaptive behavior patterns, characterized by good self-regulation and empathy toward others.

As Plato said over two millennia ago: “Our children from their earliest years must take part in all the more lawful forms of play, for if they are not surrounded with such an atmosphere they can never grow up to be well conducted and virtuous citizens” (The Laws [VII, 794]).


http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/ADHD_and_Play

ginniebean
04-26-14, 10:18 PM
Given the known side effects of stimulants and the lack of knowledge regarding their immediate and long-term brain effects, more targeted research is required.

In the meantime, caution should be used when determining whether to medicate ADHD children, perhaps with an emphasis on non-drug interventions such as play before moving to medication as a last resort

The standard protocol for treatment is medication as first line. The known side effects are minimal, and medications have been in use over 60 years with no startling revelations.

This is extremely poor advice based on ignorance and not a thorough understanding of treating adhd, adhd research, or adhd protocols.

Sadly this type of misinformation abounds on the internet.

mildadhd
04-26-14, 11:00 PM
The standard protocol for treatment is medication as first line. The known side effects are minimal, and medications have been in use over 60 years with no startling revelations.

This is extremely poor advice based on ignorance and not a thorough understanding of treating adhd, adhd research, or adhd protocols.

Sadly this type of misinformation abounds on the internet.

GinnieBean,

Fact, some people are sensitive/have side effects to medication, some children are to young to take medication.

In bold is the next sentence, following the sentence you quoted..(from Scholarpedia quote)..


Given the known side effects of stimulants and the lack of knowledge regarding their immediate and long-term brain effects, more targeted research is required.

In the meantime, caution should be used when determining whether to medicate ADHD children, perhaps with an emphasis on non-drug interventions such as play before moving to medication as a last resort..


Who would have thought that discussing free play therapy would be such at detriment to the whole ADHD population, especially in a conversation that is about children under the age of 4?



P

ginniebean
04-26-14, 11:20 PM
Peripheral. I am one of the people who cannot take medication. I'm fully aware alternatives have to be explored. But they have to be alternatives and not platforms to undermine the diagnosis and treatment where possible with the best forms we have at present.

Parents are stigmatized and told they are bad parents for getting a diagnosis and even more so for considering meds. It is irresponsible of us with adhd to fuel these stigmas and fears.

I don't have a problem with play therapy as an adjunct treatment. Great! If it works or helps even a little that's awesome. But to tell parents don't medicate try all this speculative stuff first is irresponsible.

You don't spend a lot of time in the parenting section. Just today a parent who is woefully uninformed posted about putting her 12 year old child in a group home because she can't handle him. He's in therapy and they don't want a psychiatric label for him or the meds that could me his life go from a living hell to manageable.

I know you well enough to know you have compassion. Can't you see we are in the same side? It doesn't have to be either or. There are kids and families suffering greatly because people say "oh don't medicate until you've tried this this and this" or "it's just legal speed.


Adhd is hurting kids and families right now, maybe what we have is far from perfect but it has been shown to have significant impact and actually can save lives.

All I'm saying is explore other options but you don't have to knock what we have already that is doing so much good.

I know you seem to have some kind of hate on for me but I didn't get out of bed one day and say I'm just going to go bother peripheral. I pretty much leave your posts alone because i'm not overly interested.

Since I first came here I have been a sting advocate for kids, that isn't going to change and I don't really care if people think I'm a ***** about it. I try not to be mean even when I am frustrated to the point of completely losing my ****.

Why do you have to be against what we have that helps so many, can't you see what an uphill battle it is just to get kids help? Why not explore alternatives and have at least some respect for what works, has been proven to work and improves kids lives.

Kids don't need to grow up anxious and depressed, they need living, caring, sensitive parents who are willing to do what it takes to help their child. Those parents need our support because there are already enough broken people in the world.

Can't you just try to see my side of this issue? I don't understand it.

Dopes1
04-26-14, 11:26 PM
Fact, some people are sensitive/side effect to medication, some children are to young to take medication.

All medications have side effects. Your point is, what, that because a very minute demographic experience certain side effects that the vast majority should only be medicated as a last resort?

Do you use that same logic with every form of medication?

If someone's child has adverse effects from medication used on-label for managing ADHD symptoms, what's stopping them from communicating with the child, informing the doctor if that is the case and letting the doctor modify the dosage / medication accordingly?

Who would have thought that discussing free play therapy would be such at detriment to the whole ADHD population, especially in a conversation that is about children under that age of 4?

I think every child should engage in physical play, particularly in the very early years.

But, you're talking about treatment for ADHD prior to the age of 4, even though a visible onset and possible diagnosis doesn't become obvious until the child is 4-5 years old - at minimum.

What kids under 4 are taking medication for ADHD, let alone have been diagnosed with ADHD?

mildadhd
04-27-14, 01:03 AM
..Since zoos don't have enough space to have big predators ranging loose five and half miles a day, what can they do to create good mental welfare for animals like polar bears?


One approach I've seen work with the famous polar bear at the Central Park Zoo used the brain's PLAY system.

Gus the polar bear had a figure-eight swimming stereotypy he was doing for 80 percent of his waking hours.

In the middle 1990s Newsday ran an article about Gus, and a lot of people got upset about him.

In 1994 the zoo hired a behaviorist to help them figure out how to make Gus and his companion in the exhibit, Ida, happier.

They tried a lot of different things, a few of which made Gus stereotype even more.

But by 2005 both bears were spending only 10 percent of their day doing stereotypies, which is a huge reduction.

I saw Gus in 2005.

The zoo had put a bunch of barrels with different levels of buoyancy in his pool, and Gus was having a blast jumping on the barrels and pushing them underwater.

The barrels would pop back up out of the water and he'd jump on them again.

He looked like a kid at a swimming pool with a diving board, jumping off the board into the water, surfacing, climbing out, and jumping off the diving board again.


I watched him play with the barrels for probably forty-five minutes.

That sounds like a long time, but his play definitely wasn't stereotypic.

Stereotypic behavior is always exactly the same, and the barrels made it impossible for Gus to do the same thing over and over again, because they popped up in a different position each time he jumped on them.

I don't know whether the barrels also activated Gus's SEEKING system, but since animals don't play when they're depressed, angry, or afraid, his mental welfare while he was playing with the barrels was decent.

He was definitely better off playing with water barrels than swimming figure eights all day long.

I recommend that zookeepers give their animals lots of opportunities to SEEK and to PLAY..


Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", P 278-279

ginniebean
04-27-14, 01:24 AM
I suppose if the polar bears eat the little adhd kids then the problem would resolve. Again, nothing to do with adhd treatments. Completely off topic of any sort of treatment for children.

Dopes1
04-27-14, 01:29 AM
Right, I forgot how children under the age of 4 are 'big predators', like polar bears.

Something tells me you took the title of that book far too literally.

Can you tell me the name of the book that teaches you how to attack a strawman every time someone asks you a question you cannot answer? Sounds like a good read.

This is essential reading for anyone who’s ever owned, cared for, or simply cared about an animal.Shall I help you lobby to get that changed to, "an animal, or a child diagnosed with ADHD"?

meadd823
04-27-14, 02:14 AM
How child rearing is related to treating ADD in dogs on the internet.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/tlr823/borrowed%20small%20pics/Internet_dog.jpg


By all means feel free to blame my ADD. . . .


Yes some personal connection would be nice other wise it is the un-medicated version of connecting the dots! MY guess on the internet it does not matter, not enough to get said panties in a wad any way If your an ADD dog or an ADD human because basically we can't tell who is who but for the record some times I let my cats moderate these things because they don;t care if it makes sense or not they just like to chase the cursor. . . . What I am l lacking is the list of reasons why I should care . . . . it is hard for me to relate to a bunch of quotes from some book written by some author whom I have never even heard of minus some morsel of personal connection.


Why should I care what this guy who watches polar bears for 45 minute thinks about ADD treatments. . . wtf does this polar bear watching guy with playful dogs have to do with ADD treatment period?



Are there actually parents who don't ever let their children play ??

Seriously. . . do you have children?

Heck do you have dogs, cats or polar bears for that matter. . . .

Fuzzy12
04-27-14, 05:16 AM
I think you guys are getting nasty and unfair now. I understand that this is an important topic and that emotions and concerns are running high but I don't see how sarcasm would help anyone. Including parents who need to make a decision about medicating their kids. If I was such a parent the tone of this thread would scare me off and i'd miss out on all the useful info I could have found on this site.

If I understand right peri is talking about things that could be done before the age of 4 in cases where adhd might be suspected so it's not an alternative to medication. Calling it treatment for adhd isn't probably accurate though and i wonder if the confusion is also because of the use of the word 'first line' treatment since that usually means the best (or only good) option in a pool of options. So once adhd is confirmed or diagnosed after age 4 meds would be the first line treatment. I think though in this thread it might be meant chronologically rather than in parallel. So what can be done (and is there anything that can be done) before the age of 4 when meds might not be an option yet.

daveddd
04-27-14, 08:04 AM
I think you guys are getting nasty and unfair now. I understand that this is an important topic and that emotions and concerns are running high but I don't see how sarcasm would help anyone. Including parents who need to make a decision about medicating their kids. If I was such a parent the tone of this thread would scare me off and i'd miss out on all the useful info I could have found on this site.

If I understand right peri is talking about things that could be done before the age of 4 in cases where adhd might be suspected so it's not an alternative to medication. Calling it treatment for adhd isn't probably accurate though and i wonder if the confusion is also because of the use of the word 'first line' treatment since that usually means the best (or only good) option in a pool of options. So once adhd is confirmed or diagnosed after age 4 meds would be the first line treatment. I think though in this thread it might be meant chronologically rather than in parallel. So what can be done (and is there anything that can be done) before the age of 4 when meds might not be an option yet.

the cleveland clinic has an innovative integration therapy for autism that is producing fantastic results

they say the earlier the intervention the better, best before 4

thats why they are developing a urine test for autism


i know its about adhd but
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24444366

daveddd
04-27-14, 08:11 AM
3,4,5 maybe to 10-12 is when maladaptive cognitive schemas begin to develop in reaction to primary emotional response

this is far more life damaging than the differences at birth have to be

Dizfriz
04-27-14, 10:01 AM
Peripheral ADHD and Play

Quote: ..Play: Free play, in which children develop their own activities, including rough-and-tumble activities that, as the term play implies, involves physical activity such as running, jumping, play fighting, and wrestling, are increasingly recognized as essential components of a child’s development.

Both human and animal studies have provided evidence that periods of play improve social skills, impulse inhibition and attention (Panksepp, 2007; Pellis et al., 2010) and result in specific neurochemical and dendritic changes in many neurons (Bell et al., 2010; Panksepp, 2008), especially in those brain areas in which ADHD children are deficient.

Therefore, long-term provision of more opportunities for physical play may be an effective, non-medicinal therapy for reducing some of the disruptive behaviors of ADHD and facilitating brain development in children diagnosed with ADHD.. Quote: ..Given the known side effects of stimulants and the lack of knowledge regarding their immediate and long-term brain effects, more targeted research is required.

In the meantime, caution should be used when determining whether to medicate ADHD children, perhaps with an emphasis on non-drug interventions such as play before moving to medication as a last resort.

Indeed, it is best that children have a regular “diet” of play from their earliest years, with enough adult supervision to assure that naughty behaviors can be discouraged, and hence the positive benefits of play can be consolidated into lasting adaptive behavior patterns, characterized by good self-regulation and empathy toward others.

As Plato said over two millennia ago: “Our children from their earliest years must take part in all the more lawful forms of play, for if they are not surrounded with such an atmosphere they can never grow up to be well conducted and virtuous citizens” (The Laws [VII, 794]). What do *you* think about this?. Why did you post it? This is what is important. As I try to sort through all this quoted verbiage, I get the idea that you think play to be important.

You do not have to convince me of the value of play and it place in the development of the mind of a child. I know more than a fair amount about Play Therapy and know full well its value. I also am aware of the limitations and strengths of Play Therapy and have a, I think, a good grasp of the value of play in therapeutic situations with young ADHD children. What we currently pretty much know is that Play Therapy will have little impact of ADHD itself but can have a lot of impact on the emotional aspects ADHD kids.

To try to figure out what your ideas are, the question here is do you think that more play time on kids age 4 or less will have an impact of the rate of children diagnosed as ADHD? Do you think more play time will be an effective intervention for cases diagnosed as ADHD at age 4? As best I can tell this seems to be your thesis and is a question worth discussing.

You say in the OP I think there are also some affective treatment options possible, before the tertiary level of treatment. So what are the treatment options you suggest? This is what we have been asking.

People would be interested in your ideas (agreement you may not get) but unless we know what they are, no discussion is possible. Just posting large sections of quotes that may or may not be related to the subject is not helpful. Quotes are usually used here to back up ideas or explain them better. Just throwing them out there is not of much real value.

In otherwords, what do *you* think and why? That is the question.

Dizfriz

Amtram
04-27-14, 11:13 AM
"Free Play" has already been discussed here pretty thoroughly as it relates to children with ADHD. It has been well established through many well-designed research studies that children with ADHD do not benefit from free play in the way that NT children do, because their style of play differs in many significant ways. This is why (also established through many well-designed studies) directed play therapy is far more beneficial to children with ADHD than undirected play.

Andi
04-27-14, 11:43 AM
I've changed the title of the thread in an attempt to help guide the discussion based on the content that has been given thus far. With the information posted, I'm guessing that the topic is comparing activity/free play as a means of treatment with an attempt to support conversation with animal behavior. The original post is not clear on direction for discussion. If the intent is to capture quotes, please do so in journals. If the OP does not post discussion questions that can be addressed, the thread will be closed.

mildadhd
04-27-14, 12:58 PM
I will start a new thread.

The emotional atmosphere in this thread is the opposite of what I was trying to promote.

I had a bunch of PLAY system topics, I wanted to discuss in relation to the mammalian affective neuroscientific research examples I quoted, by Temple Grandin and other researchers.

Note, in all Temple Grandin quotes/research examples, it took changing the emotional environment, to promote healthy psychological brain development in all the mammals involved.

The same treatment applies for humans, especially humans born with a emotional hypersentive temperament.

Changing the emotional environment to suit the hypersensitive child is the first line of treatment in my opinion, and can be accomplished long before the age of 4*, that is what I am trying to promote.

There are some great posts in this thread, that I want to address in future threads.

The conflict with people not interested in affective neuroscience in this thread has thwarted development of my PLAY system, and developed my RAGE and GRIEF systems, and that is not a topic of this thread.

PLAY system doesn't play, when and emotional environment consists of FEAR(Anxiety), RAGE (anger) and GRIEF/PANIC , fight , freeze or flight emotional situations.

ADD is situational: in the same individual its expression may vary greatly from one circumstance to another.

There are certain classes, for example, in which the ADD child may perform remarkably well, while in others she is scattered, unproductive and perhaps disruptive.

Teachers may conclude that the child is willfully deciding when or when not to buckle down and work diligently.

Many children with ADD are subjected to overt disapproval and public shaming in the classroom for behaviors they do not consciously choose.

These children are not purposively inattentive or disobedient.

There are emotional and neurophysiological forces at play that do the actual deciding for them.

We shall examine them in due course.


Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", P 14-15.



I understand that students in Dr.Mate's example are older than the age to 4, but the earlier emotional environment is, the even more influencial the environment has on earlier automatic nervous system psychological brain development.

Side Note 2: Fuzzy12, Someothertime, Daveddd, FracturedStory, SB_UK, I really appreciate your posts in this thread and hope we can discuss the topics more in the future, I learned from them all.

Thanks

P

USMCcop
04-27-14, 01:23 PM
ADD is situational? I wish it were. I'd probably be still sane.

SB_UK
04-27-14, 03:23 PM
If this thread is about meds <4 - then I think the point is that school > 4
- and so it's not until 4/5 - that kid's are meant to sit still and pay attention.

play time over - until death puts us out of our >5 misery.

Lunacie
04-27-14, 04:38 PM
I will start a new thread.

The emotional atmosphere in this thread is the opposite of what I was trying to promote.

I had a bunch of PLAY system topics, I wanted to discuss in relation to the mammalian affective neuroscientific research examples I quoted, by Temple Grandin and other researchers.

Posting quotes from other people is not engaging in discussion.
Those people are not here to discuss things with us.
It would be great if you would actually discuss something.



Note, in all Temple Grandin quotes/research examples, it took changing the emotional environment, to promote healthy psychological brain development in all the mammals involved.

The same treatment applies for humans, especially humans born with a emotional hypersentive temperament.

Changing the emotional environment to suit the hypersensitive child is the first line of treatment in my opinion, and can be accomplished long before the age of 4*, that is what I am trying to promote.

There are some great posts in this thread, that I want to address in future threads.

The conflict with people not interested in affective neuroscience in this thread has thwarted development of my PLAY system, and developed my RAGE and GRIEF systems, and that is not a topic of this thread.

There is no conflict with the idea of affective neuroscience.
We've been asking you to explain what you think about the subject,
and how the posts you've been sharing relate to that topic.

Again, the people you're quoting are not here to engage in discussion.
Go ahead and share their thoughts ... but then tell us what your own thoughts are.


>>
P[/QUOTE]

Andi
04-27-14, 05:38 PM
Perip, please note that a new thread on the same topic will be merged with this one. Guidance here is to state your position within this thread based on the quotes you have already presented and allow members to engage based on your position. If you cannot present your position within this thread then please create a journal or blog capturing the quotes you appreciate and explore the topic within your journal or blog and we will close this thread.

Folks, if you don't like the topic...please move on. This is my last attempt to give direction within this thread before it or any additional thread starters regarding the topic are shut down and warnings/infractions are given.

Amtram
04-27-14, 07:26 PM
Nothing so far appears to have been inappropriate for the topic. OP presents a concept that is ill-defined and contradicted by evidence, other members point out that the concept is ill-defined and present evidence that challenges the concept. That's a discussion. A forum should not be a platform for people to pontificate without allowing anyone to disagree, especially when that pontificating has little to support it besides a very specific, personal, emotional appeal. That's what blogs are for.

Are you suggesting that the topic of the thread should be "Read this and comment only if you agree"? It would be better to be honest and state this clearly, making other members aware of the intent to set up certain threads that have limited privileges, rather than giving vague instructions and penalizing people who don't understand the unspoken implications.

mildadhd
04-27-14, 08:37 PM
In Prof. Temple Grandins' quotes, it took changing the emotional environment, to promote healthy psychological brain development of the SEEKING and PLAY systems, in all the mammals (Dogs, Cats, Polar Bears) involved.

The same treatment applies for humans, (see ADHD and PLAY link)especially humans born with a emotional hypersentive temperament.

Changing the emotional environment to suit the hypersensitive child is the first line of treatment in my opinion, and can be accomplished long before the age of 4*, that is what I am trying to promote.

Prof. Grandin is using affective neuroscientific terminology, in the quotes.


Does anybody disagree so far, and if so why?


P

Lunacie
04-27-14, 09:07 PM
I saw a difference in my granddaughter - and especially in our relationship - when I changed how I interacted with her.

The trick, of course, is realizing a chance needs to happen, and then having some kind of guide to make those changes.

I can't begin to count the posts I see on facebook and other places ... people thinking it was good enough for them
when they were kids and it should be good enough for any child.

I do not think that changing the environment to support the child will provide a "cure" of any sort, but it will surely
minimize the impairment.

Dizfriz
04-27-14, 09:08 PM
In Prof. Temple Grandins' quotes, it took changing the emotional environment, to promote healthy psychological brain development of the SEEKING and PLAY systems, in all the mammals (Dogs, Cats, Polar Bears) involved.

The same treatment applies for humans, (see ADHD and PLAY link)especially humans born with a emotional hypersentive temperament.

Changing the emotional environment to suit the hypersensitive child is the first line of treatment in my opinion, and can be accomplished long before the age of 4*, that is what I am trying to promote.

Prof. Grandin is using affective neuroscientific terminology, in the quotes.


Does anybody disagree so far, and if so why?


P

The idea of changing the family environment to help the child is what parent training is all about. The parents (caregivers) provide the environment for the young child and it is there that the emphasis needs to be placed.

The biggest problem is how to reach these parents and help them learn how to provide a family environment that encourages emotional growth.

Dizfriz

someothertime
04-27-14, 09:19 PM
encourages emotional growth.


One wonders to what extent we are "capable" of emotional growth... and to reference the Polar bear... merely distracting, thus removing opportunities for styfling patterns developing...

An object orientated pacifier so to speak... which supports;


I do not think that changing the environment to support the child will provide a "cure" of any sort, but it will surely
minimize the impairment.

Lunacie
04-27-14, 09:25 PM
One wonders to what extent we are "capable" of emotional growth... and to reference the Polar bear... merely distracting, thus removing opportunities for styfling patterns developing...

An object orientated pacifier so to speak... which supports;

Could you please explain what you mean by "an object orientated pacifier"?


What actually changed for me and my granddaughter was that I stopped blaming her
for not being able to remember and just reminded her - very simply and calmly.

someothertime
04-27-14, 09:32 PM
Sure Luna, it's with reference to free play as a diversion mechanism.

Your inroads / method mentioned seems non-related? More like relational ( interaction ) based facilitation... I just liked your phrase about how these things may help, rather than "fix"... so to speak... sorry if i inferred connection with my point with your situation...

Dizfriz
04-27-14, 09:41 PM
One wonders to what extent we are "capable" of emotional growth... and to reference the Polar bear... merely distracting, thus removing opportunities for styfling patterns developing...

An object orientated pacifier so to speak... which supports;
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Could you elaborate a bit?

Dizfriz

someothertime
04-27-14, 09:44 PM
preventing failure / lack of expression pre 4yr... essentially negating development of negative coping mechanisms rather than fostering "development" as such... i feel this is essentially the core reasoning of the thread also...

Lunacie
04-27-14, 10:14 PM
Sure Luna, it's with reference to free play as a diversion mechanism.

Your inroads / method mentioned seems non-related? More like relational ( interaction ) based facilitation... I just liked your phrase about how these things may help, rather than "fix"... so to speak... sorry if i inferred connection with my point with your situation...

Thanks. I wasn't seeing the connection - it was actually tangential, eh?

(I wasn't very explicit, partly because I'm distracted by the weather channel tonight.
Lots of storms not too far away from my niece and her family in Arkansas.
And my son-in-law's family in southeast Kansas.)

mildadhd
04-27-14, 11:56 PM
Intermission

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8F6MnCsiOc

mildadhd
04-28-14, 01:38 AM
Sensitive periods are different for each brain area and neural system and therefore, for different functions.

The sequential development of the brain and the sequential unfolding of the genetic map for development mean that the sensitive periods for neural system (and the functions they mediate) will be when that system is in the developmental ‘hot zone’ – when that area is most actively organizing.

The brainstem must organize key systems by birth; therefore, the sensitive period for those brainstem-mediated functions is during the prenatal period.

The neocortex, in contrast, has systems and functions organizing throughout childhood and into adult life.

The sensitive periods for these cortically mediated functions are likely to be very long.



The simple and unavoidable conclusion of these neurodevelopmental principles is that the organizing, sensitive brain of an infant or young child is more malleable to experience than a mature brain.

While experience may alter the behavior of an adult, experience literally provides the organizing framework for an infant and child.

Because the brain is most plastic (receptive to environmental input) in early childhood, the child is most vulnerable to variance of experience during this time.

http://centerforchildwelfare2.fmhi.usf.edu/kb/chronicneglect/childexperience.pdf



The rate of environmental influence on psycholgocial brain development is not consistent throughout life.

Although I do think free play is also good for the primary caregivers.

I still feel overjoyed when I think of the uncontrollable laughter, while chasing my son around with the football, when he was younger.

I loved when he would change the rules, and make up new rules, etc.


In the period following birth, the human brain, unlike that of our closest evolutionary relative the chimpanzee, continues to grow at the same rate as in the womb.

Whereas the chimpanzee brain will no more than double from birth to reach its adult size, the brain mass of humans will have tripled by the age of four.

By adulthood, the size of our brain will have quadrupled, meaning that fully three-quarters of our brain growth takes place outside the womb following birth, with most of this increase occurring in the early years.

-Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", P 65.

SB_UK
04-28-14, 01:30 PM
Comparing Animal Emotion as discussion for Treatment of ADHDSo animal emotion ie completely controlled by punishment / reward ie elimination or provision of food.

Treatment of ADDer = not living in a world where human beings use ^^^this^^^ reward system.

^^^this^^^ is the primitive reward system.

The way to treat the ADDer is to eliminate the external reward which controls human behaviour.

External reward which we can use to make animals dance = food.
External reward which we can use to make humans dance = money.

We must eliminate the use of money so the higher reward system (people doing things because it brings them personal reward) is accessed.

^^^this^^^ is the higher (social) reward system.

-*-

The primitive rewards system is controlled by the Pre-frontal cortex.
The higher reward system is controlled by the Anterior Cingulate cortex.

As an individual builds a mind of morality, we observe a switch from PFC reward to ACC reward.

Both have the capacity to control pain.

So - build PFC (by selfish behaviours ie chasing money/power) and you feel pain if you aren't successful in acquiring money/power ... ...
So - build ACC (by social behaviours ie building global communities/ensuring global equality) and you feel pain if you find yourself forced to support anti-social systems.

Build the ACC and pair-bonding/enlightenment can free you from the need to access ACC reward - and the individual can obtain reward from pure existence without any stipulation on the individual other than access to the sun.

Life's meant to be more fun than a constant battle against the usual political dictator, corporate psychopath, bankster fraud, cowboy plumber ... ... and it can be - if people simply realise a world in which people only do what brings them personal reward within species context.

This world may require us to jiggle a little with what we have now - which appears to be a society built on the lowest possible quality - which is what happens when one allows the PFC reward system to express itself globally in the systems people undertake.

the usual political dictator, corporate psychopath, bankster fraud, cowboy plumberNo government (replaced by fully distributed government of the people by the people)
No corporations (replaced by co-operatives)
No banks (since money no longer required)
Plumbing and associated jobs (standardized so anybody and their robot can do them); if somebody doesn't like what they do (ie willing to do for free) - then we need to eliminate or automate that task.

Stevuke79
04-28-14, 01:36 PM
The very vast majority to all people who work for money - are like dogs being given scooby snacks for riding a unicycle .. seals who're tossed fish when they jump through hoops

I've never thought of myself that way before.. ok.. Was the second analogy to make the point more relatable? It didn't work for me. ;)

If you've a mind - which most people don't...

:o ..stop, am I blushing?

I'm just busting your chops for no good reason.. no offense intended, only fun.

SB_UK
04-28-14, 03:19 PM
I've never thought of myself that way before.. ok.. Was the second analogy to make the point more relatable? It didn't work for me. ;)



:o ..stop, am I blushing?

I'm just busting your chops for no good reason.. no offense intended, only fun.

Does 'dogs being offered fishy snacks to co-erce them into jumping through hoops' work any better ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Australian_Shepherd_agility_cropped.jpg/535px-Australian_Shepherd_agility_cropped.jpg

The ADDer dog would be a conscientious objector.

mildadhd
04-28-14, 04:12 PM
SEEKING and PLAY are not learned, they are genetic.

The natural enthusiasm for free play, does not occur naturally, during distressful fight, freeze or flight situations/expereinces, (perceived or real), so we must learn to respect each other, to promote development.

I think affective treatment, is also effective for promoting healthy development of the more invisible circuits involved in the natural "family process" (relationship(s)), throughout life.

Play therapy, music therapy, and other more social secondary and tertiary forms of play involving SEEKING, PLAY, and other primary circuitry, are also very effective affective treatments for middle age and elderly age people, as well.

But only because the rate of development and rate of environmental influence are different at different ages/stages of psychological brain development.

I think it is best that we start with understanding the fundamentals, of the SEEKING and PLAY instincts first. :)

We got a lot of play to do.



P

mildadhd
04-28-14, 07:02 PM
The following is my own interpretation, please leave room for learning, superduperlayman.

Using the Affective Neuroscience Chart (http://www.ploscollections.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021236;jsessi onid=AD13490132E599FB6413BDA3EB45FF87) below, as a order of brain development guide.




Order of "Hot Zone (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1642295&postcount=77)" development, starting at the bottom, at birth, RED (subcortical) is more mature than GREEN (upper limbic) or BLUE (neocortical).


3)(Blue) Tertiary level "hot zone", after the age of 4-7-12-15-adulthood*.(top down) (cognition)

2)(Green) Secondary level is "hot zone", before the age of 4*. (learning)

1)(Red) Primary level "hot zone" is before birth*. (ground up) (emotion) (complex unconditioned emotional responses)


http://www.ploscollections.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0021236.g003&representation=PNG_M

SB_UK
04-29-14, 05:46 AM
Definitely a life of 24-7 fun.

Do human beings have to do anything that isn't fun ?

Is there any part of learning (theoretical or practical) of anything that need be dull ?
No.

As long as the individual wants to learn how to do (insert practical thing here) - learning how to (insert practical thing here) won't be dull.

As long as the individual wants to learn how to do (insert theoretical thing here) - learning how to (insert theoretical thing here) won't be dull.

Where does education let us down ?
Teaching people how to do or know things that people don't really want to do or know.

-*-

So ... ... ...

- take away the compulsion ie you have to learn how to program to make money, how to plumb to make money
- and allow people to choose a field which'll (even if learning/training required) bring the individual personal reward.

Thinking excellence in everything to do with gardening, in woodwork, in programming, in exercise (all 3 types) ... ...

- the list breaks down into all of the various hobbies which people spend their spare time doing.

And that's about it.

-*-

Core problem reward-reinforcement using external instead of internal reward motivates people (if not displaying wisdom, ADD) into behaviours which are of no use to the individual/species.

Evolution manifests itself through generating species with enhanced fitness / survival prospects with any given environment.

The human mind is an evolutionary product.

So far - we've observed people using the mind only towards species destruction as profit motive has reward reinforced destruction of agricultural land, pollution of the air, massively destructive weaponry.

All of which suggests that the evolutionary property of mind (on an individual and species level) has not completed.

It completes with ADDers.

As evidenced by our incapacity to motivate (through external reward) into behaviours which are not personally rewarding eg competitive practices particularly in school and workplace ... ...
- the evolutionary trajectory of mind comes to a halt.

So - the end of mind ?
Kinda'

Not that there's more information to discover.

Just that there's no 'important' additional information to discover.

We won't time travel, leave the Universe, live forever ... ... ... there's just fun on planet earth
- requiring that we operate with mind (globally logical, rational, moral) in the systems we embrace.

-*-

Ahhhh but I'm bored - I want to live forever, have more money than everybody else, I want 12 Nobel prizes and 3 Oscars for best supporting wallaby ... ...

That's all nonsense.
An expression of the Pre-frontal Cortex reward system.

Feed the Anterior cingulate cortex reward system, escape from addictive propensity ^^^ and at stage wisdom/pair bond formation - you don't need anything (other than the sun) to be happy.

Where's the sun when you need it ?

SB_UK
04-29-14, 06:08 AM
http://www.ploscollections.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0021236.g003&representation=PNG_M


So if you don't have a mind - the entire mind - body structure collapses.


PFC reward system is weakened with development of mind leading to anterior cingulate reward system dominance -> until wisdom (completion of mind) when PFC reward system is eliminated and as long as society permits ie we're not made to earn money - you are free.

Freedom.

What do you do if you no longer are motivated towards earning money, beating other people, have 1000 girlfriends ?

It's the freedom from that motivation that we're looking to achieve.

You can do what you want - but you won't need to do any - because you're freed of the compulsion to 'achieve'.

That 'high achieving' compulsion can be seen to run alongside psychopathy ie as empathy and ACC reward system development progresses, the 'high achieving' type loses motivation to stand out ... ... the goal is to be happy being a nobody.

The psychopathic high achiever wants so to be special.

S/he will though find that that underlying motivation (like heroin) can never be satisfied - because that underlying motivation shares the same basic mechanism to the attraction for heroin.

Pursue the PFC reward system and you will always want more.

Until you pop.

Andi
04-29-14, 08:55 AM
Thread closed for review by staff.