View Full Version : Out of options....


ToastedParent
04-25-14, 04:39 PM
Hello,

I truly need some advice, as we have a 12-year old son, who has become unmanageable and out of control. We are not certain of his true diagnosis, as we get different opinions from so many doctors through the years. His personality behavior has evolved and changed, and developed some other complicated factors in both his mental status and behavior.
Through our own research, we feel he is either ADHD, or possibly Aspergers. We are not 100% sure, but exhibits symptoms of both. In addition, he is extremely defiant (ODD), and still acts as an impulsive 3-year old and inappropriate for his age.
Recently developed OCD, and ticks (Tourette). Now I hate all these labels, but nonetheless, none of us are able to control him anymore, and he has cause a lot of trouble for us through the years with neighbors, school, police, EMS, and even doctors.

So, he is extremely high functioning and intelligent, WAS academically the top of his class. (Developed school anxieties, and went downhill - due to various triggers, bullying, etc)
He is also very proficient, and sometimes obsessive about computers and smart phones. He can discuss these topics with the experts and beyond, and build/fix from scratch. He does have some other interests, but technology is strongest. This of course is a great asset, but just giving background. He can sit for hours with his phone, and then breaks into his impulsive and aggressive behavior/outbursts.

Some unacceptable behavior is gross and disrespectful - spitting, nose-picking and wiping it on furniture, peeing on the floor, throwing things, destructive, etc... Some is OCD like excessive hand-washing, which is dealable. Has developed poor hygiene and showers seldomly (previous summer, we couldn't get him OUT of the shower)
He is very odd in the sense he doesn't respond appropriately to things around him. For example, we're all dressed and ready to go to the park, and he's still in his pajamas, and on his computer. If we say we're going to PLACE X, and then mom or dad needs to stop at a store on the way, he goes into explosive tirades, fits, banging the car window etc.
He is very calculating and manipulative, and plays his parents like two fiddles against the other. (I am less prone to this, bc I ignore his antics, but my partner is susceptible)
In addition, he seems to require constant attention (even at his age), and constantly wants to go out and stay out - even on school nights. Goes to sleep late, etc. We have other kids who are younger, who also want our time (in a normal kid way). He also wakes them up screaming at night sometimes.

Everything MUST be my son's way, or he will go into a destructive temper tantrum. He gets aggressive, and especially to mom. I must goto work, but have run home several times to help. He is a nightmare, and wish we had a bigger support system, and at least better ways to deal with him and he needs to learn ways to control his anger/aggression and appropriately respond to disappointment and NO. For example, if I'm on the phone and can't talk to him right NOW, an object will go flying accross the room.
In other situations he seems to be better, when friends or grandfather is around. But this is far and few between.
So, now the point of this all - he is totally disruptive to our entire family unit, in every aspect of life. We love him as our first born, but we are now considering a therapeutic boarding school. We are really uncomfortable sending him away, and policy there will not allow or severely restrict his beloved objects phone and computers. I think this, as I understand it, is a break-down strategy, rather than a build-up strategy. He will not have phone access, will be monitored, and basically severely restrictive environment. We also considered military school, but afraid they will kick him out (the structure will do him good), but we have approval to send him to the therapy residential school. But, we are lost, because, the more we read, the more we're uncertain of how he'll be out of our hands, and possibly medicated by their doctor.

The flip side is, he is a disaster at home, we are tired and worn down as parents, need respite, and feel he is not getting the help he needs. Even when we try to goto regular therapy visits, we have to cajole him, bribe him, avoid his threats to do something, like making up lies about our treatment of him. This week we went to a new therapist. While in the waiting room, he couldn't sit still, HAD TO TOUCH everything, and played with the alarm, disabled the camera, etc..... A little 7 year old girl sat there perfectly behaved. He does seem to stop when other strangers tell him to, so can get embarassed. SO, it seems he doesn't even WANT to stay at home and help himself through therapy, he doesn't want to go to ANY special schools. We have to decide on RESIDENTIAL ASAP! - b/c we may lose funding forever, and then we'll be stuck with his problems as he becomes a bigger and stronger teenager!!! HELP PLease advise. Sorry for the long post. Await replies

dvdnvwls
04-25-14, 04:58 PM
Through your own research?? That's all?

First thing to do is go to a psychiatrist, and take the psychiatrist's advice.

Ms. Mango
04-25-14, 10:01 PM
Hi and welcome to the forums.

Does your DS have a diagnosis from a professional? If so, what is it? What is he going to therapy for?

Lunacie
04-25-14, 10:45 PM
Hello,

I truly need some advice, as we have a 12-year old son, who has become unmanageable and out of control. We are not certain of his true diagnosis, as we get different opinions from so many doctors through the years. His personality behavior has evolved and changed, and developed some other complicated factors in both his mental status and behavior.

Through our own research, we feel he is either ADHD, or possibly Aspergers. We are not 100% sure, but exhibits symptoms of both. In addition, he is extremely defiant (ODD), and still acts as an impulsive 3-year old and inappropriate for his age.

Recently developed OCD, and ticks (Tourette). Now I hate all these labels, but nonetheless, none of us are able to control him anymore, and he has cause a lot of trouble for us through the years with neighbors, school, police, EMS, and even doctors.

So, he is extremely high functioning and intelligent, WAS academically the top of his class. (Developed school anxieties, and went downhill - due to various triggers, bullying, etc)

He is also very proficient, and sometimes obsessive about computers and smart phones. He can discuss these topics with the experts and beyond, and build/fix from scratch. He does have some other interests, but technology is strongest. This of course is a great asset, but just giving background. He can sit for hours with his phone, and then breaks into his impulsive and aggressive behavior/outbursts.

Some unacceptable behavior is gross and disrespectful - spitting, nose-picking and wiping it on furniture, peeing on the floor, throwing things, destructive, etc... Some is OCD like excessive hand-washing, which is dealable. Has developed poor hygiene and showers seldomly (previous summer, we couldn't get him OUT of the shower)

He is very odd in the sense he doesn't respond appropriately to things around him. For example, we're all dressed and ready to go to the park, and he's still in his pajamas, and on his computer. If we say we're going to PLACE X, and then mom or dad needs to stop at a store on the way, he goes into explosive tirades, fits, banging the car window etc.

He is very calculating and manipulative, and plays his parents like two fiddles against the other. (I am less prone to this, bc I ignore his antics, but my partner is susceptible)

In addition, he seems to require constant attention (even at his age), and constantly wants to go out and stay out - even on school nights. Goes to sleep late, etc. We have other kids who are younger, who also want our time (in a normal kid way). He also wakes them up screaming at night sometimes.

Everything MUST be my son's way, or he will go into a destructive temper tantrum. He gets aggressive, and especially to mom. I must goto work, but have run home several times to help. He is a nightmare, and wish we had a bigger support system, and at least better ways to deal with him and he needs to learn ways to control his anger/aggression and appropriately respond to disappointment and NO. For example, if I'm on the phone and can't talk to him right NOW, an object will go flying accross the room.

In other situations he seems to be better, when friends or grandfather is around. But this is far and few between.

So, now the point of this all - he is totally disruptive to our entire family unit, in every aspect of life. We love him as our first born, but we are now considering a therapeutic boarding school. We are really uncomfortable sending him away, and policy there will not allow or severely restrict his beloved objects phone and computers.

I think this, as I understand it, is a break-down strategy, rather than a build-up strategy. He will not have phone access, will be monitored, and basically severely restrictive environment. We also considered military school, but afraid they will kick him out (the structure will do him good), but we have approval to send him to the therapy residential school. But, we are lost, because, the more we read, the more we're uncertain of how he'll be out of our hands, and possibly medicated by their doctor.

The flip side is, he is a disaster at home, we are tired and worn down as parents, need respite, and feel he is not getting the help he needs. Even when we try to goto regular therapy visits, we have to cajole him, bribe him, avoid his threats to do something, like making up lies about our treatment of him.

This week we went to a new therapist. While in the waiting room, he couldn't sit still, HAD TO TOUCH everything, and played with the alarm, disabled the camera, etc..... A little 7 year old girl sat there perfectly behaved. He does seem to stop when other strangers tell him to, so can get embarassed.

SO, it seems he doesn't even WANT to stay at home and help himself through therapy, he doesn't want to go to ANY special schools. We have to decide on RESIDENTIAL ASAP! - b/c we may lose funding forever, and then we'll be stuck with his problems as he becomes a bigger and stronger teenager!!! HELP PLease advise. Sorry for the long post. Await replies


If I remember correctly, something like 80% of kids with Asperger's also have ADHD.
Like you, I can some symptoms of both in the behaviors you describe.

I don't like the lable "manipulative", as kids on the spectrum feel they have little control of their environment
and are just trying to control whatever they can. That's something we all need to be able to do.

My youngest granddaughter has been dx PDD-NOS, or Atypical Autism.
We have also been at the point of considering a residential placement.

She was caught in a perfect storm at the time, we were fiddling with meds
and she had a horrible teacher in the resource room. :(

I didn't see any mention in your post of your son taking any meds at all. Does he?
Meds can be very helpful - and scary.

But no more scary than considering sending your child to live somewhere else, eh?

sarahsweets
04-26-14, 06:26 AM
I suggest that you immediately get him to see a psychiatrist. Like NOW, ASAP. If you cant get him into one soon, then find a childrens hospital because the behaviors you mention need immediate attention and action.

Stevuke79
04-26-14, 08:54 AM
Hello,

I truly need [to make an appointment with a licensed professional to get] some advice, as we have a 12-year old son, who has become unmanageable and out of control...

I noticed a typo in your original post. I fixed it for you with my edits in blue.

Happy to help. Carry on :)

Ms. Mango
04-26-14, 10:05 AM
OP, I think your post is confusing to many of us. OK, maybe just me....

You say you've taken your son to doctors. It sounds like you've received a diagnosis or diagnoses, but don't tell us what those are. It isn't unusual for a child to receive one diagnosis when younger, then have the diagnosis change when they get older. Often, the way young children act/react to certain situations can confound even professionals. Things tend to shake out once a child gets to elementary school and beyond. In addition, it isn't unusual for a child to be diagnosed with co-morbid disorders once they get older. It doesn't necessarily mean the original diagnosis was incorrect.

You don't tell us if your DS is on medication. The way you describe him he could be unmedicated or improperly medicated. It's impossible to tell from your post. If I were to read between the lines I would think that he isn't medicated because you don't believe the diagnosis, or diagnoses, he's been given. But I could be way off.

I don't think you're going to get helpful advice unless you come back and fill in the blanks.

Gina
04-26-14, 03:44 PM
Hello,


Recently developed OCD, and ticks (Tourette). Now I hate all these labels, but nonetheless, none of us are able to control him anymore, and he has cause a lot of trouble for us through the years with neighbors, school, police, EMS, and even doctors.

I'm afraid there might be a problem with your thinking toward your son. Seeing brain-based conditions as "labels" is not going to take you to the finish line. A diagnosis is not a label; it is a path toward feeling better.

His behavior sounds challenging, to be sure, and the fact that he's good with computers seems to have masked his very real problems.

It's true that doctors often have differing opinions. And sometimes it takes trial and error with medication to tease out the nuances of complex conditions. You don't mention any medication trials. Yet, you are ready to send him to "RESIDENTIAL"?

I suggest a screening of both parents as well as the child for any treatable diagnoses.

Good luck

Lunacie
04-26-14, 04:28 PM
I'm afraid there might be a problem with your thinking toward your son. Seeing brain-based conditions as "labels" is not going to take you to the finish line. A diagnosis is not a label; it is a path toward feeling better.

>>.

Good luck

As someone who grew up with the labels of "lazy, stupid and crazy"
I'd have been happy to have the labels of ADHD, anxiety and depression instead.

There is no treatment for "lazy, stupid and crazy." Only blame.
But there is treatment and help for ADHD, anxiety and depression.

zette93
04-26-14, 05:39 PM
I would suggest reading The Explosive Child and Lost at School by Ross W. Greene. His approach to explosive kids is to figure out why they are exploding (usually lagging skills) and to involve them in figuring out the solutions -- it's a lot different than the rewards and consequences model I'm sure everyone has already tried. He has a lot of good video here: http://www.livesinthebalance.org/walking-tour-parents

Also, since you are at the point of considering residential placement, here is a list of schools that use his model: http://www.cpsconnection.com/providers

If you contact him through the website, he might be able to refer you to someone in PA.

ginniebean
04-26-14, 05:42 PM
You need to begin to explore psychiatric options. Your child cannot be thriving and happy as is. He needs help and someone to advocate for him.

AshT
04-27-14, 11:24 AM
It sounds like there could be Aspergers there.
Meltdowns with autism can look like temper tantrums, but they're not!! It's an involuntary response to being overwhelmed.

AshT
04-27-14, 11:25 AM
If we say we're going to PLACE X, and then mom or dad needs to stop at a store on the way, he goes into explosive tirades, fits, banging the car window etc.Especially things like this!! If you're changing the plan or routine, it can cause meltdowns!!!

CrazyLazyGal
04-27-14, 03:14 PM
Was he adopted by any chance?

ToastedParent
04-28-14, 03:24 PM
Thank you all for your replies. Apologies on not getting back sooner, I didn't get any notification of replies, so first time checking again.

To answer some of the posters.
He had various diagnoses by different doctors who we were not happy with. One PSY(MD) put him on awful meds (anti-psychotics) which made him violent, and we have since left this Dr (who wanted to hospitalize him) and took him off these meds. He gave these not for intended use, but as a sedative.

As he developed depression/OCD, we had him on zoloft, but weaned him to a very small dose, which my spouse believes "holds" him. He himself wants to get off the meds.

We DID NOT try the typical ADHD meds - it's the only thing we didn't. He does not have good reactions to medication in general. Yes we believe that perhaps if his IMPULSES can be controlled by such meds, we would consider it. But our last PSY(MD) says he doesn't have ADHD, and said the stimulant meds would agitate him and cause more anxieties. I know there is KAPVAY & INTUITIV (which is non-stimulant ADHD meds - anyone have really good experiences with these?) They basically are blood pressure meds time released.

I believe he himself feels there is something not right about him, and is afraid to learn medically the truth. For example, we brought him to a Quotient test which supposedly 100% indicates ADHD yes/no - but our son, refused to take the test, leaving and coming back with a candy bar while talking to the dr. Rather than believe this is insolent behavior, I feel he tries to cover up MOST of his issues with just becoming the "BAD BOY".

Yesterday, spouse took daughters shopping. It took me 30 minutes to calm him down who exploded (and cried), and wanted to break things in the house, that he wanted to go too. I felt successful one time by calming him down eventually without yelling myself and trying to talk to him and sympathize (in reality, if he went, it would ALMOST GUARANTEE to be a failed shopping trip (ie, walking right out and going home due to embarassing behavior). I did tell him, that if these things didn't happen, I would make sure he goes next time. But, I realize now, he probably can't help himself. I was exhausted after these frequent breakdowns.

The problem is, twofold, finding a GOOD PSYCHIATRIST, that takes our INSURANCE. We have an appt to another one and will post back on thoughts. We feel residential is the last resort, but if we lose this, and all else fails, we will all be in trouble with the system.

We need a solid PLAN B to keep him at home, and get him well. There is a DAY SCHOOL WE (parents would consider), but HE (son) refuses to go and said he won't get on the bus (it's too far for us to drive him everyday) - but at least he would sleep at home, and still have his comforts here. But I really feel (despite even our potential failings as parents) he needs to be "reborn, retaught and reintegrated' bc he's on the wrong path and what we've done so far is ineffective. Any other thoughts? Thanks again@

ToastedParent
04-28-14, 03:32 PM
OMG and upon rereead of some postings - he certainly is NOT adopted he is our first born (prince); we've tried various meds, and I meant labels (not trying to avoid a diagnosis, but in fact to know what the RIGHT diagnosis is) One doctor says he's fine, others ADHD, others not ADHD, maybe ASPERGERS, absolutely NOT ASPERGERS, and of course, its all the parents' fault blame. And by no means am I trying to be offensive in my descriptions (such as when I say he seems to be manipulative). Thx

Ms. Mango
04-28-14, 05:12 PM
There are no approved medical tests for ADHD (like a blood test or brain scan). The Quotient test is one of many ADHD tests. No one test can tell you with 100% certainty that someone has ADHD. Diagnosis relies on observation, parent and teacher input/observations and the completion of various checklists and rating scales. In other words, testing right now is mainly subjective, not objective.

You still haven't said what his diagnosis is. The truth of the matter is that many of the behaviors you describe don't sound like ADHD. I'm guessing (because you haven't really been forthcoming with information) that your son's doctor doesn't want to give him stimulant medication because he believes your son has a mood disorder. In general, with a mood disorder, even if ADHD is also present, you stabilize mood first and then treat the ADHD. You do that with medication. Talk therapy can improve your son's outcome once he is properly medicated.

There are good doctors and bad doctors out there, I'm going to assume that not all the doctors you've come across are quacks. You may not want to hear what even the good ones have to say, though. I think you're in denial. Your son is seriously ill. Hospitalization doesn't sound like a bad idea because he doesn't seem stable and there are younger children in the household to consider. Residential treatment (in-patient, not day) would also be a viable option. They will give him medication, most likely.

Military school as a possible option? The fact that you're considering this makes me wonder if you understand the severity of your son's situation. Schools like that attract kids/parents who want discipline and structure. Maybe a kid is a bit rebellious and needs a some tough love. While structure and discipline are good for any kid, a program like this is not for kids with serious mental illness.

I don't think you're out of options. The best option would be to listen to what your son's doctors have to say and accept the diagnosis that sounds like the best fit for your son's behaviors rather than trying to jam a square peg into an ADHD-round hole. Once you do that you need to begin trying meds (again) and work at it tenaciously until you find the right drug or drug combo for him. You can do this at home or, if he becomes too difficult to handle, the treatment facility.

dvdnvwls
04-28-14, 05:27 PM
Thank you all for your replies. Apologies on not getting back sooner, I didn't get any notification of replies, so first time checking again.

To answer some of the posters.
He had various diagnoses by different doctors who we were not happy with. One PSY(MD) put him on awful meds (anti-psychotics) which made him violent, and we have since left this Dr (who wanted to hospitalize him) and took him off these meds. He gave these not for intended use, but as a sedative.

As he developed depression/OCD, we had him on zoloft, but weaned him to a very small dose, which my spouse believes "holds" him. He himself wants to get off the meds.

We DID NOT try the typical ADHD meds - it's the only thing we didn't. He does not have good reactions to medication in general. Yes we believe that perhaps if his IMPULSES can be controlled by such meds, we would consider it. But our last PSY(MD) says he doesn't have ADHD, and said the stimulant meds would agitate him and cause more anxieties. I know there is KAPVAY & INTUITIV (which is non-stimulant ADHD meds - anyone have really good experiences with these?) They basically are blood pressure meds time released.

I believe he himself feels there is something not right about him, and is afraid to learn medically the truth. For example, we brought him to a Quotient test which supposedly 100% indicates ADHD yes/no - but our son, refused to take the test, leaving and coming back with a candy bar while talking to the dr. Rather than believe this is insolent behavior, I feel he tries to cover up MOST of his issues with just becoming the "BAD BOY".

Yesterday, spouse took daughters shopping. It took me 30 minutes to calm him down who exploded (and cried), and wanted to break things in the house, that he wanted to go too. I felt successful one time by calming him down eventually without yelling myself and trying to talk to him and sympathize (in reality, if he went, it would ALMOST GUARANTEE to be a failed shopping trip (ie, walking right out and going home due to embarassing behavior). I did tell him, that if these things didn't happen, I would make sure he goes next time. But, I realize now, he probably can't help himself. I was exhausted after these frequent breakdowns.

The problem is, twofold, finding a GOOD PSYCHIATRIST, that takes our INSURANCE. We have an appt to another one and will post back on thoughts. We feel residential is the last resort, but if we lose this, and all else fails, we will all be in trouble with the system.

We need a solid PLAN B to keep him at home, and get him well. There is a DAY SCHOOL WE (parents would consider), but HE (son) refuses to go and said he won't get on the bus (it's too far for us to drive him everyday) - but at least he would sleep at home, and still have his comforts here. But I really feel (despite even our potential failings as parents) he needs to be "reborn, retaught and reintegrated' bc he's on the wrong path and what we've done so far is ineffective. Any other thoughts? Thanks again@
Please don't take this the wrong way; it's very difficult to find words for what I'm trying to say, and I might get it wrong. I think it's important, so I don't feel I can simply not comment.

It seems to me that you're not thinking of your son like he's a person. It seems from what you're saying that you don't have empathy in this situation. Without empathy, it's far too easy for you to make very bad decisions on his behalf, and I think some of the things you're talking about and suggesting would indeed be very bad decisions. But I don't think it will be enough help to you or your son for you to come on a forum and get the bad decisions corrected one by one; I think as a parent you'll need a major change of attitude and a completely different way of doing things, beginning with empathy and understanding.

This is something I think it would be very helpful for you by yourself (with or without your husband, but most certainly without your son) to take to a therapist or counsellor or psychiatrist.

zette93
04-28-14, 05:28 PM
One thing I like about the Ross Greene books and videos is that he is not focused on labels. Figure out what is causing the child stress, and solve the problems one at a time...

Gina
04-29-14, 01:23 AM
Hello,


Through our own research, we feel he is either ADHD, or possibly Aspergers. We are not 100% sure, but exhibits symptoms of both. In addition, he is extremely defiant (ODD), and still acts as an impulsive 3-year old and inappropriate for his age.

While in the waiting room, he couldn't sit still, HAD TO TOUCH everything, and played with the alarm, disabled the camera, etc..... A little 7 year old girl sat there perfectly behaved. He does seem to stop when other strangers tell him to, so can get embarassed. SO, it seems he doesn't even WANT to stay at home and help himself through therapy, he doesn't want to go to ANY special schools.

I've seen enough red flags for ADHD in your narratives, yet you say that's the only medication you have NOT tried. Why is that?

Also, it would be helpful for you to please tell us the names of books you have read on these various diagnoses. That way, we have a sense of how well-educated you are on the possibilities.

LynneC
04-29-14, 09:15 AM
A teaching hospital may be a good place for you to find help for your son...
Have you tried UPMC? Not sure how close they are, but they would have multiple mental health specialists in one place to make a proper diagnosis...
http://www.upmc.com/Services/behavioral-health/Pages/default.aspx

Fuzzy12
04-29-14, 09:46 AM
To answer some of the posters.
He had various diagnoses by different doctors who we were not happy with. One PSY(MD) put him on awful meds (anti-psychotics) which made him violent, and we have since left this Dr (who wanted to hospitalize him) and took him off these meds. He gave these not for intended use, but as a sedative.

As he developed depression/OCD, we had him on zoloft, but weaned him to a very small dose, which my spouse believes "holds" him. He himself wants to get off the meds.

We DID NOT try the typical ADHD meds - it's the only thing we didn't. He does not have good reactions to medication in general. Yes we believe that perhaps if his IMPULSES can be controlled by such meds, we would consider it. But our last PSY(MD) says he doesn't have ADHD, and said the stimulant meds would agitate him and cause more anxieties. I know there is KAPVAY & INTUITIV (which is non-stimulant ADHD meds - anyone have really good experiences with these?) They basically are blood pressure meds time released.

For me, stimulants actually decrease my anxiety. They balance out my emotions, make me more patient and much better at coping with frustrations and irritations. It differs from person to person. If he does have ADHD it would be worth a shot.


I believe he himself feels there is something not right about him, and is afraid to learn medically the truth. For example, we brought him to a Quotient test which supposedly 100% indicates ADHD yes/no - but our son, refused to take the test, leaving and coming back with a candy bar while talking to the dr. Rather than believe this is insolent behavior, I feel he tries to cover up MOST of his issues with just becoming the "BAD BOY".

There are no tests for ADHD, especially none that can give 100% certainty. ADHD is usually diagnosed in a detailed interview with an experienced psychiatrist. Please remember that if he really has ADHD, his behaviour isn't necessarily insolent. It's very, very difficult for ADHDers to control our impulses and what can look like rudeness, inappropriateness or insolence is often just a coping mechanism to deal with the extreme feeling of uncomfortableness that some situations cause for us.


The problem is, twofold, finding a GOOD PSYCHIATRIST, that takes our INSURANCE. We have an appt to another one and will post back on thoughts. We feel residential is the last resort, but if we lose this, and all else fails, we will all be in trouble with the system.

I think you are right. The first priority right now should be to get a good psychiatrist who will diagnose him properly. I wouldn't take any other major decisions before you have some answers on what he might be suffering from. I don't know much about residential schools but unless the school caters for and is experienced in dealing with kids with his particular disorder(s), it will likely do more harm than good.

I'm glad to hear that you aren't considering military school. It's unlikely to help him but might be serious torture for him.

We need a solid PLAN B to keep him at home, and get him well. There is a DAY SCHOOL WE (parents would consider), but HE (son) refuses to go and said he won't get on the bus (it's too far for us to drive him everyday) - but at least he would sleep at home, and still have his comforts here. But I really feel (despite even our potential failings as parents) he needs to be "reborn, retaught and reintegrated' bc he's on the wrong path and what we've done so far is ineffective. Any other thoughts? Thanks again@

I think, what he needs more than anything is a proper diagnosis and then proper treatment specific to that diagnosis and his individual needs.

Please don't blame yourself for any potential failings but there is a lot you can do now to help him with the first being a diagnosis. Then educate yourself as much as you can about ADHD, Asperger's, etc. Normal, conventional behavioural interventions won't work well with ADHD kids. There are things that work but they need to be ADHD specific (if that's what he has).

More than anything, please also don't blame him. He's not a bad, spiteful, sadistic child who wants to make your life miserable. Like you said above, he can't help himself. He doesn't have to be reborn. He might need to be taught some disorder specific coping strategies or tools and what he'll need more than anything is understanding, patience and compassion.

I don't have kids but I can imagine that it's not easy and that this is obviously taking a heavy toll on you. Hang in there. Best of luck and good wishes!!

CrazyLazyGal
05-01-14, 01:39 PM
So you're willing to try residential treatment and military school but haven't been willing to try the first line of medical treatment for ADHD?!

That said, it sounds like there is definitely more than just ADHD going on.

Gina
05-02-14, 12:36 PM
One thing I like about the Ross Greene books and videos is that he is not focused on labels. Figure out what is causing the child stress, and solve the problems one at a time...

I like Ross Greene's work, too, but it has its limits. Sometimes figuring out what is causing the child stress is internal, not external. The external environment might be the catalyst, but as Stuart Smalley would say, "It's easier to wear house shoes than to carpet the world."

Some day that child will grow up and go out into the world, and the world isn't made of wall-to-wall carpeting.

zette93
05-02-14, 12:54 PM
I like Ross Greene's work, too, but it has its limits. Sometimes figuring out what is causing the child stress is internal, not external. The external environment might be the catalyst, but as Stuart Smalley would say, "It's easier to wear house shoes than to carpet the world."

Some day that child will grow up and go out into the world, and the world isn't made of wall-to-wall carpeting.

That's a good point, but in many cases you have to lower the stress level a lot in order to be able to learn anything about managing in the real world.

Cindypopz
05-23-14, 01:13 AM
I can understand your struggle. I have an 11 year old son who exhibits similar behaviors. He is explosive when he doesn't get his way, hits walls, yells nasty things, tries to purposely hurt my feelings, screams and so on. In public he will behave inappropriately and in such an embarrassing manner sometimes that I have to just leave wherever we are.

He too is very into technology though he leans more towards video games, and I have noticed that his behavior is far worse when he plays these. We have tried many stimulant medications and these help him to focus in school, however they do agitate him and cause increased aggression. He currently takes intuniv which I notice a small difference in his hyperactivity when he takes it but that is about it. He is still very impulsive.

I took him to the amen clinic last year for a brain scan and they had very helpful suggestions but did warn that with puberty around the corner, his mood disorder would change. He has applied to a boarding school for the upcoming semester that I am hoping he will get in to. I think that a change of scenery and a little forced responsibility will help him, and bring me back from my breaking point. As a single mother, it is nearly impossible to stay afloat. I wish you the best of luck and hope that you can find the best way to treat your boy.

jennafide
05-23-14, 06:00 PM
OP, I'm sorry but when do children (yes 12 is still a child) get to decide what they will and won't do? You say he refuses to go to the day school but YOU ARE THE PARENT. It seems to me that he is in no position to make ANY decisions for himself, that's why you as the parent HAVE to make those hard decisions for him. He may hate you but one day he will thank you. My son, who is 9, has told me several times that he hates me and hates his life. You know what I say to that, You can hate me all you want but I love you and I'm willing to make that sacrifice. Life's not a cake walk to get used to it.

On a side note, My son takes Focalin XR and Kapvay and it works very well. He still has some behavioral issues but I chalk that up to being stuck in his games all the time and having no real gratitude for all the things that he has.

NeedDirection
05-23-14, 07:00 PM
Poor kid, it must suck being at home. He doesn't respect his parents. I wonder why? Could the parents need a label and not so much the kid? I'm guessing excuses are flying in your head now :D

If you really want to help your kid, help yourself first. Then dig yourself out of the hole you put yourself in with him.

silivrentoliel
05-23-14, 07:28 PM
guys, try and remember she's here-- asking these questions-- trying to figure out how to help her son... I don't think everyone needs to jump on her because she worded something "wrong" ...

that said, he sounds a lot like a boy I know... he's adopted, and the situation he came out of was really bad (not that your home life is bad, I'm just telling you about this kid) which caused a few of his issues, but as he progressed with his new family and medications were being tested, he would have these massive explosions of temper tantrums- breaking windows, hitting his adopted mom, throwing things around the house... it was really scary, especially for his parents- and his adopted mom is a psych nurse!!

turns out, he had undiagnosed bipolar disorder and the meds they were trying him on for ADHD, depression, anxiety, sensory issues, etc. were making it that much worse for the poor kid.

pdocs are hard to find... even harder to find one that isn't an ***hole and will really take the time to listen... I hope you guys can find one that will work with your family to find a solution... I can't imagine the stress this must be putting on your family.

jakylangelo
05-23-14, 10:06 PM
I know some people don't like this approach...For the sake of sounding "old fashioned", but have you tried the "heavy hand" approach? I know in this day and age, people don't like to "discipline" their children anymore, because it is viewed as "abuse", and we have seen the effects of this in this world when they "spare the rod... Spoil the child"... but there is resolve in establishing dominance with your child, then, he may be more "accepting" of treatment.
Sometimes, all that is needed to get their attention, is a good old fashioned "lesson"!

Ms. Mango
05-23-14, 10:23 PM
Wow, I can't disagree with this more.

Look, the problem here is that this child is not being treated, or not being treated effectively, for a mental health condition. The lesson he is learning is that life is hard for people with untreated mental health disorders. Are you now proposing that his parents drive the lesson home by beating it into him?

The other interesting thing to note here is that the OP hasn't been back since April 30th. Apparently, he didn't want to hear what we had to say either.

Lunacie
05-23-14, 10:34 PM
:goodpost:

I don't think teaching the child a "lesson" by corporal discipline will change the way his brain works, any more than it would help a child with a physical issue like diabetes or asthma or nearsightedness or dwarfism straighten up and try harder.

All that discipline sure didn't teach me how to manage my untreated mental health disorder. Maybe my parents should have spanked harder? Grounded me longer? Shamed me more? :umm1:

Stevuke79
05-23-14, 11:51 PM
I know some people don't like this approach...For the sake of sounding "old fashioned", but have you tried the "heavy hand" approach? I know in this day and age, people don't like to "discipline" their children anymore, because it is viewed as "abuse", and we have seen the effects of this in this world when they "spare the rod... Spoil the child"... but there is resolve in establishing dominance with your child, then, he may be more "accepting" of treatment.
Sometimes, all that is needed to get their attention, is a good old fashioned "lesson"!


You said it. And in addition to mending their behavior now, it's important that we model an effective dominant approach that will be a vital tool for them throughout their lives in dealing with others. Siblings, girlfriends,.. Eventually their spouse and their children too.

That's how we establish the cycle of dominance.

Stevuke79
05-23-14, 11:53 PM
Has there been conclusive research regarding the effectiveness of a "heavy hand" in treating autism? Until there is I don't see why we should rule it out.

dvdnvwls
05-24-14, 12:31 AM
You said it. And in addition to mending their behavior now, it's important that we model an effective dominant approach that will be a vital tool for them throughout their lives in dealing with others. Siblings, girlfriends,.. Eventually their spouse and their children too.

That's how we establish the cycle of dominance.
Steve... I agree with you and wish I had made the same point, and would likely have made it in a similar way. Based on recent discussions elsewhere, I'm not sure sarcasm is likely to be accepted or understood as widely as one might hope.

I tend to view "dominance" as tantamount to violence. Wondering how far off the mark I am in that regard.

Stevuke79
05-24-14, 12:56 AM
Dvd you're right. I read this post to my wife and she was concerned that I could be taken seriously. I'm sorry and I wish I has read it to her before posting it - I was totally wrong.

Both posts were a joke.

I mention research about corporal punishment and autism - I was hinting at the plethora of research that shows that corporal punishment may get short-term immediate compliance which makes parents feel very satisfied and as if they accomplished something, but that is an illusion and in the long term it results in worse behavior. This is in addition to other mental and physical health problems.

Also, research shows that not only does corporal punishment not teach good behavior, but it actually DOES teach a very specific way of dealing with people you care about in the future (siblings, children, etc). So when you use the heavy hand - that's what they learn: the heavy hand.

And I'm sure everyone got my "cycle of dominance" reference. (Cycle of abuse) (I know you got it dvd, as I'm sure did most people but I'm just spelling it all out on the guidance of you and my wife.)

Ms. Mango
05-24-14, 01:07 AM
Well folks, we're done here...