View Full Version : MRI shows disrupted connections in brain ADHD


ginniebean
05-04-14, 03:13 PM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140430083133.htm


Children and adolescents with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder have disrupted connections between different areas of the brain that are evident on resting-state functional magnetic resonance imaging, new research shows. The findings point to the potential of rfMRI to help provide objectively accurate, early diagnosis of a disorder that affects approximately 5 percent of children and adolescents worldwide.


Another possibility that may pan out as an objective measure in diagnosis. I found this very interesting.

Lunacie
05-04-14, 03:56 PM
Could also help with treatment once it's known which areas are not properly connecting.

ginniebean
05-04-14, 04:05 PM
I'll look into the study itself and perhaps post about it. It would be good to have effective new treatment options.

Amtram
05-04-14, 10:38 PM
While I'm almost always suspicious of imaging studies (and of research from China) this isn't implausible. I'd like to have seen a larger study with a more diverse cohort of subjects. But combined with several others I've been looking at, there seems to be several areas of hypo- and hyper-connectivity that look consistent among children with ADHD and different from children without ADHD.

USMCcop
05-05-14, 04:31 AM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140430083133.htm




Another possibility that may pan out as an objective measure in diagnosis. I found this very interesting.

Well, if it's true I bet the brain problem can be solved with fish oil, vitamins, and "talk therapy."

SB_UK
05-05-14, 10:49 AM
Personally my mind is almost constantly in a low energy (theta EEG) state and hates to be stressed out of slumber.
Isn't there any chance that we can use simple EEGs at rest or EEGs under duresse as our objective test of ADD ?

My point being that preference for low energy requiring EEGs and being pushed into ever lower EEGs (zoning out) when under stress - makes a kinda' evolutionary sense.
IE ditch brain (keep it running on trickle charge) whilst energy is diverted elsewhere.

Since lower freq. neocortex means lower energy requirement - why mightn't it not be our core feature which of course turns into a flaw - when we're required to turn our minds to pointless educational and pointless workplace activities ?

Now another of our major problems is memory - but why waste space on memory when it's clear from the massive expansion in information - that the mind/brain 'd be better in storing pointers in on URLs on wikipedia - rather than the actual information itself - you see what I mean - storing pointers rather than the information itself - exactly as we hurl data structures around in OO code.

Which educational and workplace activities are pointless ?
The very vast majority.

What do stimulants do ?
Simply raise the EEG frequency ? from sleep (low) to awake (higher).

Just coming up with ideas - this one feels as though it makes sense.

Haven't tried to find if any of the above are supported by science.

So the problem is are we low arousal by nature (Winnie the Pooh) or pushed into a low arousal state by stress (cortisol,SNS resistance) ?

A low arousal state (low energy usage) would be handy for survival - but it's not so useful in our current world.

I don't know - feature or flaw ?

Certainly being in theta EEG (daydreaming) is wonderful; it's only trying when you have to do something pointless - as is pretty much everything we're expected to do - pay bills, paperwork, earn money, deliver a talk on nothing in particular ... ... ... a particularly creative place - where though the individual doesn't really have so much control on what leaps forth. What takes one's fancy and drives hyperfocus is (it appears) driven by the desire to eg fit 2 pieces of information which we believe into a coherent framework ie to have a globally logically consistent model of mind - employing theta space (creativity) to land us there.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/267246.php
EEG brainwave tests help diagnose ADHD symptomsApologies if off topic - just thinking of what a view through the mind of ADHD might think that the best objective test for ADHD 'd be.

Maybe also studies of brain flow upon stress testing (ie forcing us to do something like fill out a form) - the tedium !!!
Our brain should do something different.

Increased prefrontal oxygenation related to distractor-resistant working memory in children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23385518

Amtram
05-05-14, 11:19 AM
A slightly larger study, somewhat more focused on sustained attention, looking for commonalities between ADHD and ASD: http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v18/n2/full/mp2011185a.html

Still not big enough for (ahem) "proof," but still adding a tidbit of evidence that ADHD brains actually function differently from NT brains.

As sketchy as a lot of fMRI studies are, and as horribly as they're reported to us by the media, there's still a lot of potentially useful data we can gather from them. And if we can show people pictures and charts and numbers that validate ADHD as a real thing, I can't completely dismiss them as useless.

ginniebean
05-05-14, 12:11 PM
Personally my mind is almost constantly in a low energy (theta EEG) state and hates to be stressed out of slumber.
Isn't there any chance that we can use simple EEGs at rest or EEGs under duresse as our objective test of ADD ?

My point being that preference for low energy requiring EEGs and being pushed into ever lower EEGs (zoning out) when under stress - makes a kinda' evolutionary sense.
IE ditch brain (keep it running on trickle charge) whilst energy is diverted elsewhere.

Since lower freq. neocortex means lower energy requirement - why mightn't it not be our core feature which of course turns into a flaw - when we're required to turn our minds to pointless educational and pointless workplace activities ?

Now another of our major problems is memory - but why waste space on memory when it's clear from the massive expansion in information - that the mind/brain 'd be better in storing pointers in on URLs on wikipedia - rather than the actual information itself - you see what I mean - storing pointers rather than the information itself - exactly as we hurl data structures around in OO code.

Which educational and workplace activities are pointless ?
The very vast majority.

What do stimulants do ?
Simply raise the EEG frequency ? from sleep (low) to awake (higher).

I confess to knowing nothing about EEG frequency SB. What I do know is my brain is AWAKE, going going going, I am rarely foggy, and rarely sluggish. When I was on meds I felt like my control of things tightened up really nicely. and at times the meds made me calmer, tho not always.

I have no idea if EEG waves can capture the variety of all out adhd experiences. Be kinda wierd if it excluded those with hyperactivity. haha



Just coming up with ideas - this one feels as though it makes sense.

Haven't tried to find if any of the above are supported by science.

So the problem is are we low arousal by nature (Winnie the Pooh) or pushed into a low arousal state by stress (cortisol,SNS resistance) ?

A low arousal state (low energy usage) would be handy for survival - but it's not so useful in our current world.

I don't know - feature or flaw ?

Would be nice to have clarity around this. I tend to think a bit of both. That's what seems most likely but, really so hard to say. I would love to have some niche market open up that all of a sudden spectacular uses what he have to offer. You can be my side kick, you can be the brains and I'll be the brawn! hehehe



http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/267246.php
Apologies if off topic - just thinking of what a view through the mind of ADHD might think that the best objective test for ADHD 'd be.



Maybe also studies of brain flow upon stress testing (ie forcing us to do something like fill out a form) - the tedium !!!
Our brain should do something different.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23385518


I'll have a look at your link I hit reply before fully reading.. ;) I'm in a bit of a rush to pack as I'm moving in a bit over a week. But I'll see if there's something I can reply to. Sorry about that.

ginniebean
05-05-14, 12:13 PM
A slightly larger study, somewhat more focused on sustained attention, looking for commonalities between ADHD and ASD: http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v18/n2/full/mp2011185a.html

Still not big enough for (ahem) "proof," but still adding a tidbit of evidence that ADHD brains actually function differently from NT brains.

As sketchy as a lot of fMRI studies are, and as horribly as they're reported to us by the media, there's still a lot of potentially useful data we can gather from them. And if we can show people pictures and charts and numbers that validate ADHD as a real thing, I can't completely dismiss them as useless.

Well you know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, and in this case more like a bazillion.

ginniebean
05-05-14, 12:14 PM
Well, if it's true I bet the brain problem can be solved with fish oil, vitamins, and "talk therapy."

I sincerely doubt it! I hate talk therapy!

Amtram
05-05-14, 01:51 PM
I hate it with a bad therapist, but I love it with a good one. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.

SB_UK
05-05-14, 03:07 PM
I sincerely doubt it! I hate talk therapy!

Ever have the urge to repeat after each and every single thing that somebody says to you - "I either agree or disagree dependent on what you mean"

chikkaccino
05-05-14, 03:36 PM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140430083133.htm

Another possibility that may pan out as an objective measure in diagnosis. I found this very interesting.

Am I the only one thinking, "How in the world did they get the kids to stay still for so long during the scans?"

Amtram
05-05-14, 04:43 PM
This is actually a legitimate concern. There are several projects going on that aim to reduce this effect on the scans, but right now most of the corrections are made mathematically and statistically. It's one of the big problems with scanning research. The other is that a lot of activity has to be "averaged" using all of the scans collected, while some extraneous activity needs to be cut out - and we don't know whether it's actually extraneous or potentially important.

This is why imaging studies of any kind (including EEG and QEEG) are currently limited in their usefulness. They're interesting, for certain. They've got potential. But you can't put all your eggs in one basket, so imaging studies alone won't be our strongest evidence.

ginniebean
05-05-14, 06:48 PM
Ever have the urge to repeat after each and every single thing that somebody says to you -

Yes! I so often find things to be unclear to me. At least most people make an effort to enter a discussion about their ideas, and willing to have some given and take about it.


That can make the frustrating bearable at least.

I honestly do think this is a certain type of hearing, maybe the ability to refrain from imposing your own thoughts, hearing what the other says and then realising.. wait a minute.. what are you saying? you need to clarify.

You've talked about how language can trip us up often enough, and this is one of the main issues that I see.

daveddd
05-06-14, 06:13 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3155780/

http://books.google.com/books?id=LzmBYEm-Z2wC&pg=PA196&dq=emotional+suppression+amygdala&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6u45U_WZKebLsAT7woLQDg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=emotional%20suppression%20amygdala&f=false

I'm sure there are differences in the brain of adhd folk

is it necessarily cause, or possible effect

the two studies above show when normals force poor emotional regulation (suppression) there brains light up, the same way adhd brains do normally

with adhd ritalin normalizes this difference

ginniebean
05-06-14, 10:22 AM
Dave in your study link I'm not finding where it says control subjects had a similar affect. Maybe it"s my reading but can you maybe highlight that part for me?

daveddd
05-06-14, 11:24 AM
You would have to read the second one to see similar fmri results when normals suppress emotion

Which is equivalent to poor emotion regulation

ADHD has it without negative suppression

ginniebean
05-06-14, 11:32 AM
Ok yeah, I didn't read the second one, forgive me, I'm packing to move right now so I just went thru the first one. pack take breaks pack take breaks. It did show significant difference between those with adhd and the controls tho. I'll read the second one.

daveddd
05-06-14, 11:40 AM
I'm not saying it really means much Just something could be a physical sign of something or a physical correlation.

ginniebean
05-06-14, 11:49 AM
Ok, I'm still confused as to what you're saying Dave, because I maybe missed the part where affect was the same but read onward to find this

Neuroimaging evidence indicates that the inverse relationship between reappraisal-related perfrontal regions and amygdala activity is not as strong or effective in those with these clinical disorders. Those with postraumatic stress disorder are less successful when using reappraisal to reduce self reported negative affecte, and fail to recruit prefrontal regions that healthy controls use to reappraise(New et al., 2009) Several disordered populations, including those with major depressive disorder, social anxiety disorder, specific phobia, and borderline personality disorder, show less activation in regulation-related regions and the amygdala that is observed in the healthy controls (Golding, Manber-Ball, Werner, Heimberg & Gross 2009; Hermann et al., 2009; Johnstone, van Reekum, Urry Kalin, & Davidson, 2007; Koenigsberg et al., 2009). These deficits in emotion regulation are important aspects of those disorders and offer promising avenues for intervention that may correct or reverse these difficulties in emotional regulation in clinical disorders. (pg 199)


It seems that they've referenced several studies that show affect is actually different in people with clinical disorders, tho adhd wasn't referenced and nor was any developmental disorder which is distinct from varying clinical mental illnesses. STILL, it does show some promise for potentially new effective treatments so cool!

I don't mean to be a bother, but can you point me to where it said controls experienced the same thing?