View Full Version : Drumming and attention.


Kunga Dorji
05-18-14, 03:53 AM
A fascinating article:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/89363/science-shows-how-drummers-brains-are-actually-different-from-everybody-elses?utm_source=policymicFB&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social
One psychology professor at the University of Washington used rhythmic light and sound therapy on his students and discovered that their grades improved.

Similarly, one researcher at the University of Texas Medical Branch used that method on a group of elementary and middle school boys with ADD. The therapies had a similar effect to Ritalin, eventually making lasting increases to the boys' IQ scores.

Unfortunately the study is not referenced.
I have emailed the author in an attempt to track it down.


Granted, these studies focused more on the effects of rhythm on the mind rather than on the mind behind the rhythm. That being said, drummers' consistent rhythmic focus has positive effects on them and those around them (yes, even their neighbors). That's because when drummers bring a steady rhythm (and corresponding problem-solving abilities) to a group setting, they actually create a "drummer's high" for everyone around them.



Observing that high led researchers to hypothesize that drumming was integral to community-building and that sharing rhythms could be the sort of behavior necessary for the evolution of human society.



Drumming is a fundamentally human thing. A lot of modern music has shifted towards drum machines over humans to create ultra-precise electronic rhythms. But it turns out that what we typically perceive as error is really just a uniquely human sense of time: Researchers at Harvard found that drummers harness a different sort of internal clock that moves in waves, rather than linearly as a real clock does.


That has to be relevant to the issues with time sense in ADHD.

Especially as my ADHD terminated very abruptly on the last weekend in February while attending a rhythm meditation workshop - I find this really interesting-- and would love to know if any others have any leads in this area.

Thanks
KD

SB_UK
05-18-14, 04:06 AM
Brain entrainment to a particular (theta-like) beat on a portable music player ?

I find when I'm out in silence I can drop into a sleep-like trance when listening to a certain style of music - and in that place there is no stress.

A form of sensory shutdown - don't really see or hear anything - I'd describe it as sleep-walking supported by a certain beat.

5 hours yesterday maybe more today.

This music (currently playing) does it for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_12QwdU1e6Q&list=AL94UKMTqg-9BfhfV7QDGy2080kNJAC_tC&index=15

SB_UK
05-18-14, 04:11 AM
A peaceful theta state - I think spoken voice communication (ref to animal world) ie internal/written world uniquely human
- that use of vocal cords requires lifting out of theta
and that the effect - imagine road rage ie theta free-driving on an empty road and road-rage from bumper to bumper driving
- similarly with theta vs higher states.

Trying to suggest that there's (particularly in ADDer) a draw to theta.

Maybe lower ?

Core evolutionary selection - decreased energy usage from slowing neocortical firing rates - neural firing exerts an energetic cost on us - slowing the mind/brain 'd make for an excellent choice by evolution - and add to this the idea that theta represents a creative space.

Since education (current) destroys creativity and theta state is desired by adders; since school forces kids to lose theta - applies stimulant (knocks mind/brain out of theta space) - so it is true I guess - that a mind predisposed to creativity is being disabled by life in current educational/workplace settings.

Within context of mind, safety, information - cultivating the daydream state for innovative creativity is to be encouraged - thereby realising change for the better.

Unmanagable
05-18-14, 04:23 AM
I don't have any documentation to offer, but I live it and experience it weekly. It's extremely beneficial in my life. I started learning with my heartbeat. I still don't technically know what I'm doing as far as being labeled an "educated musician", and I can't read music, but the rhythms we create within the circle don't reflect that, luckily. :)

People bring other instruments, too and it blows me away at how well everyone just falls together. Violin, guitar, banjo, clarinet, Native American flute, etc. Several of the music majors that often join us say they've had to forget what they were taught to enjoy playing at the level they do now. The heart level. :)

Taking my drum to the woods alone is just as powerful in a different way. But I still can't drum and speak at the same time, and I have to keep my eyes closed most of the time in the circle so I don't get distracted and lose the rhythm. lol

namazu
05-18-14, 04:28 AM
This article (http://news.stanford.edu/news/2006/may31/brainwave-053106.html) names Harold Russell as the education researcher at UTMB who did the research mentioned in the item you quoted, and Thomas Budzynski at the University of Washington.

Here's the website for the 2006 symposium (http://www.stanford.edu/group/brainwaves/2006/)at which both presented their research, which has links to the papers presented. The conference/workshop was called "Brainwave Entrainment to External Rhythmic Stimuli: Interdisciplinary Research and Clinical Perspectives".

Unmanagable
05-18-14, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by SB: I'd describe it as sleep-walking supported by a certain beat.That's a good description. Once we get a beat going and we get tight with it, it has yet failed to send me to a place that feels a lot better than where I was when I got there.

Granted, we have times when we just don't mesh and we have to regroup and start over, but we get right back in it. It's so empowering to physically feel the beat and be a part of the result of a bunch of strangers managing to work together so effortlessly to make something so damn beautiful and healing.

Of course, there's times I don't/can't make it there, but when I do go, I greatly benefit, and I get thanked for sharing my energy and presence. That's quite refreshing within itself considering some of the other receptions my energy gets. Ha!

LynneC
05-18-14, 12:20 PM
I was a drummer from grade school through college (snare drum always, and drum set (traps) through high school)

Completely anecdotal, but I think that drumming increased my math aptitude significantly and also increased my problem solving skills (IQ tests, etc)

Not sure re attention deficits, which I have had since middle school. Quite possibly would have been worse without the drumming, but that is just a guess.

SB_UK
05-18-14, 03:50 PM
As long as in sun and silence, preferably with a steady surface to walk on - I think rate of walking may also entrain into theta. So music maybe not necessary

It is no coincidence that 4.5 beats, or cycles per second corresponds to the trance like state of theta brain wave activity. http://www.printfriendly.com/print/?source=site&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deeptrancenow.com%2Fbrainwave _synchronization.htm

I have this natural resistance to anything which costs - from pharma med, to alternative med, to drumkit ... ... I think we can get there (happy theta place - as long as we're in the sun on a flattish surface and in complete silence) - the entrainment may come from a metronome set by our rate of walking.
METHODS:

Using Emotiv EPOC, a low-cost mobile EEG recorder, participants took part in a 25 min walk through three different areas of Edinburgh. The areas (of approximately equal length) were labelled zone 1 (urban shopping street), zone 2 (path through green space) and zone 3 (street in a busy commercial district). The equipment provided continuous recordings from five channels, labelled excitement (short-term), frustration, engagement, long-term excitement (or arousal) and meditation.
RESULTS:

... lower frustration, engagement and arousal, and higher meditation when moving into the green space zone; and higher engagement when moving out of it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23467965
I think that walking in other environments (like somebody talking) is distracting - pulls us out of theta. That it's the combination of walk rate / silence, only green surroundings and a walking surface that's easy to walk on ie no attention need be paid.
Personally I have 1 route which I've done '00s of times - but I don't see anything whilst out - and so the very idea of boredom doesn't come into it - it's simply an environment which supports entry into a place where ADDers like to be.

SB_UK
05-20-14, 05:43 AM
This article (http://news.stanford.edu/news/2006/may31/brainwave-053106.html) names Harold Russell as the education researcher at UTMB who did the research mentioned in the item you quoted, and Thomas Budzynski at the University of Washington.

Here's the website for the 2006 symposium (http://www.stanford.edu/group/brainwaves/2006/)at which both presented their research, which has links to the papers presented. The conference/workshop was called "Brainwave Entrainment to External Rhythmic Stimuli: Interdisciplinary Research and Clinical Perspectives".

Thanks to Namazu for correcting the link - and allowing me to read it without any adverts - and without the distraction of adverts -
it very much does feel as though I'm describing theta/delta rather than alpha/theta interface.

Apparently (didn't know this) - sleep walking is associated with delta bursts (from that site).

Going deeper - deeper states of consciousness relate to remaining 'awake' and going from vacuous chatty (beta ?) to delta - note whilst staying awake.

Yes less sleep required when in delta for prolonged periods -
didn't know whether it was sun / fasting / delta space

someothertime
05-20-14, 07:00 AM
An extremely unusual side effect of (me) starting medication... I began to tap.... to drum... complex rythmns, all layers of songs on radio's....

Usually while i'm driving ( ties in with bodily movement synchronously )...

Something that without meds was an *almost* non occurrence.... very difficult to foster... extremely unnatural feeling...

I post that not with relation to meds... but how when my "cognitive" systems were facilitated... the body moved... no doubt it's reversible ;)


Thanks Kunga!

Kunga Dorji
05-20-14, 07:27 AM
I don't have any documentation to offer, but I live it and experience it weekly. It's extremely beneficial in my life. I started learning with my heartbeat. I still don't technically know what I'm doing as far as being labeled an "educated musician", and I can't read music, but the rhythms we create within the circle don't reflect that, luckily. :)

People bring other instruments, too and it blows me away at how well everyone just falls together. Violin, guitar, banjo, clarinet, Native American flute, etc. Several of the music majors that often join us say they've had to forget what they were taught to enjoy playing at the level they do now. The heart level. :)

Taking my drum to the woods alone is just as powerful in a different way. But I still can't drum and speak at the same time, and I have to keep my eyes closed most of the time in the circle so I don't get distracted and lose the rhythm. lol


We learn to play music and sing before we learn to read music-- just like we learn to speak, before we learn to read and write.
Our sense of rhythm comes from gestating just under the heartbeat of our mothers.
Both of these observations should be obvious enough for you all to tell me to lay off rambling about the utterly straightforwards:)

Kunga Dorji
05-20-14, 07:41 AM
An extremely unusual side effect of (me) starting medication... I began to tap.... to drum... complex rythmns, all layers of songs on radio's....

Usually while i'm driving ( ties in with bodily movement synchronously )...

Something that without meds was an *almost* non occurrence.... very difficult to foster... extremely unnatural feeling...

I post that not with relation to meds... but how when my "cognitive" systems were facilitated... the body moved... no doubt it's reversible ;)


Thanks Kunga!

Now- I do have a serious theoritical framework to present here:
I am sure that what is happening in ADHD is an issue with unintegrated sensory information entering our brains- and us getting scrambled as we try to reassemble this info.

My ADHD officially died doing a rhythm meditation workshop in late February- and my stimulant dose is declining really fast (2 doses in the last 11 days or so).

I am sure that we can use rhythm to help integrate our senses and our bodily movement.

I think that is why drum circles work, and why so many of my ADHD friends like hard rock so much- like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nEAmt5AZ8

mind you - this works too- in a different sort of way :):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2wBPix-nmg

Kunga Dorji
05-20-14, 07:42 AM
Yes less sleep required when in delta for prolonged periods -
didn't know whether it was sun / fasting / delta space

That's how alpha-stim (cranial electrical stimulation) works.

mildadhd
05-20-14, 12:50 PM
Great thread.

I'm struggling to find words to discuss the topics.

I am interested to know more about the percussion exercises/seminar , is there more than one person playing/practicing together, do you still practice, with other people, etc?

Attunement?

These are questions not conclusions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuGAt9XDo7U

mildadhd
05-20-14, 03:13 PM
Abstract

This article summarizes the potential role of evolved brain emotional systems in the mediation of music appreciation.

A variety of examples of how music may promote behavioral change are summarized, including effects on memory,mood, brain activity as well as autonomic responses such as the experience of ‘chills’.

Studies on animals (e.g. young chicks) indicate that musical stimulation have measurable effects on their behaviors and brain chemistries, especially increased brain norepinephrine (NE) turnover.

The evolutionary sources of musical sensitivity are discussed, as well as the potential medical-therapeutic implications of this knowledge.


Keywords: Music; Emotions; Chills; Evolution; Chicks; Humans; Brain


http://www.musikament.at/b3/Panksepp%26Bernatzky.pdf

mildadhd
05-20-14, 03:24 PM
Now- I do have a serious theoritical framework to present here:
I am sure that what is happening in ADHD is an issue with unintegrated sensory information entering our brains- and us getting scrambled as we try to reassemble this info.

My ADHD officially died doing a rhythm meditation workshop in late February- and my stimulant dose is declining really fast (2 doses in the last 11 days or so).

I am sure that we can use rhythm to help integrate our senses and our bodily movement.

I think that is why drum circles work, and why so many of my ADHD friends like hard rock so much- like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nEAmt5AZ8

mind you - this works too- in a different sort of way :):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2wBPix-nmg


Kunga Dorji,

Sorry, I missed your post above, answers most of my previous questions.

Have you always been a drummer, musician?


P

mildadhd
05-20-14, 03:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvTi0s59QtY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hS-mrOga5U

Kunga Dorji
05-20-14, 09:51 PM
Great thread.

I'm struggling to find words to discuss the topics.

I am interested to know more about the percussion exercises/seminar , is there more than one person playing/practicing together, do you still practice, with other people, etc?

Attunement?

These are questions not conclusions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuGAt9XDo7U

The TaKe Ti NA rhythm meditation process is usually done with 2 practitioners.
One person keeps the beat - usually with a drum and with bells tied round her ankles that rattle as she stamps.
Then the leader introduces progressively more challenging exercises to the group and develops a melody line chant.

It is usually done as a 3 day intensive workshop.
Often there are about 80 participants. Big numbers work well.

Here is an example featuring Reinhard Flatishler, who invented the process.
This is a much smaller group but it gives you the idea.
This is the most wonderful fun.
I can't wait till the next workshop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQOwlCpqNCc

Reinhard is 72 I think- and this was filmed last year. He does not look it, and he told me that his doctors have assessed his physiological age as 36.
They are probably overestimating :)

SB_UK
05-21-14, 04:08 AM
I think my EEG has the power to put people to sleep.

According to the website (Namazu set as a print-friendly site) above - dropping below alpha sends some to sleep.

Pretty sure I live in low EEG territory and that people unused to this space can detect and synchronize with it ... ... resulting in them falling asleep.

That's an interesting idea - because it suggests that there's a subconscious level of communication between states (defining EEG as a state of) consciousness.

Pretty sure that we can extend this idea to subconscious communication of emotional states - because context dependent - the low EEGs are either bored/relaxed/calm/safe and the high EEGs are either enthused/scared/overly anxious

ie that the subconscious state mixed with obvious external signs make for a subconscious relay of another person's state.

-*-

You may be able to prescribe people with my type of mind-state as a treatment for anxiety !!!
I'll zap 'em with ultra-low freq EEGs which'll send 'em to sleep.

-*-

Just when I though I could not become any more boring.

Kunga Dorji
05-21-14, 05:27 AM
I think my EEG has the power to put people to sleep.

According to the website (Namazu set as a print-friendly site) above - dropping below alpha sends some to sleep.

Pretty sure I live in low EEG territory and that people unused to this space can detect and synchronize with it ... ... resulting in them falling asleep.

That's an interesting idea - because it suggests that there's a subconscious level of communication between states (defining EEG as a state of) consciousness.

Pretty sure that we can extend this idea to subconscious communication of emotional states - because context dependent - the low EEGs are either bored/relaxed/calm/safe and the high EEGs are either enthused/scared/overly anxious

ie that the subconscious state mixed with obvious external signs make for a subconscious relay of another person's state.

-*-

You may be able to prescribe people with my type of mind-state as a treatment for anxiety !!!
I'll zap 'em with ultra-low freq EEGs which'll send 'em to sleep.

-*-

Just when I though I could not become any more boring.


We could "weaponise you" and beam you at all military installations in the world :)

Kunga Dorji
05-21-14, 05:30 AM
Kunga Dorji,

Sorry, I missed your post above, answers most of my previous questions.

Have you always been a drummer, musician?


P


I learned guitar at school (still don't know how my parents sucked me into classical!!-- try playing purple haze on a classical guitar with a stethoscope taped to the back of the body to give it enough sustain :)

I resumed at age 42 (my 2nd 21st) and rapidly moved from acoustic to electric. I have done some lead but mostly rhythm.
As for drumming-- I play a mean steering wheel in traffic jams.

someothertime
05-21-14, 05:32 AM
Kunga, what is the "prescribed regime" post 3 days...

i.e. what sort of ongoing practice is advocated by the TaKe people?

and

similar in your experience.

-Do they/you suggest local groups / home excercises - tapes -> what frequency
-Do they/you expect / profess "life" syncopation ( aka, same principles sans music... ) and encourage or expand on this
-Do they/you undertake related activities that suppliment and enhance this practice...

I guess i'm curious as to what degree in laymans terms would be the ongoing necessary application in order to see / maintain benefit and/or if extended submersion or like tasks can expedite therapeutic effect.


My guesstimate is that part of it is meditative... in that there is no "prescribed amount".... the fact that the physical triggers the mental does seem to infer better / expected response over pure meditative activities.

Once one has the "knack".... how much is retained upon cessation of the physical activities.... I guess i'm trying to seperate what might be (semi)permanent and what may be mechanical and "living integration"....


etc. etc. etc. sorry for the rambling questions.... hope one of those paragraphs makes it clear!


Cheers

someothertime
05-21-14, 05:41 AM
ie that the subconscious state mixed with obvious external signs make for a subconscious relay of another person's state.


sb... ^ this is touching at the heart... and I hope the premise is explored in more detail.

fwiw... my take on this psuedo-hypothesis is that it is largely instinctual ( primary ) at heart... tho, the subconcious state is a byproduct or subsequent "relation" or "logic mapping" so to speak... not sure if that makes sense... close to my thoughts on it though...

sorry if that's contra-op-top or tangential... tho' i feel it needs highlighting... on second thought... i can tie my take into the topic... the rythmn would in effect make relation instantanious... therefore negating the need to impose emotive layers for reference as they are accessible by means of the body integration. in other words, the emotional mapping is fluent and untainted, present with lightness and momentum.

... wow! fancy that! tying two things makes another clearer! ( to me anyway :o )


cheers

SB_UK
05-21-14, 06:02 AM
The pattern which is pervading the story here is balance.

Some chap :-) talked about the middle way.

The first reaction to the middle way is no way - extreme everything ... ...

And then we see the effect of wikiP/speedball - where the middle way (balance between stimulant and narcotic) is so pleasurable - that people risk and die that way.

The middle way comes up under the definition of stress (recent thread), GABA vs Glutamate, male archetype vs female archetype, SNS vs PNS, low freq EEG vs high freq EEG meeting at Schumann resonance principal node 7.83 Hz, narcotic vs stimulant, amphetamine vs opiate

-*-

Point ?

To hit that middle point - representing a balance point in the physical (physiological) and psychological (EEG state).

What is the ideal physiological state ?
Aerobic respiration.

What is the ideal psychological state ?
In the zone - alpha/theta EEG.

How do we leave our worries behind ?
By having none - through elimination of money ?

-*-

OK - link back to here.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78836&page=9

-*-

What am I thinking ?

That delta space is associated with the deletion of memories - I remember ***nothing***.
That remembering nothing is an essential part of being in the present.

Kunga Dorji
05-21-14, 09:34 AM
Kunga, what is the "prescribed regime" post 3 days...

i.e. what sort of ongoing practice is advocated by the TaKe people?

and

similar in your experience.

-Do they/you suggest local groups / home excercises - tapes -> what frequency
-Do they/you expect / profess "life" syncopation ( aka, same principles sans music... ) and encourage or expand on this
-Do they/you undertake related activities that suppliment and enhance this practice...

I guess i'm curious as to what degree in laymans terms would be the ongoing necessary application in order to see / maintain benefit and/or if extended submersion or like tasks can expedite therapeutic effect.


My guesstimate is that part of it is meditative... in that there is no "prescribed amount".... the fact that the physical triggers the mental does seem to infer better / expected response over pure meditative activities.

Once one has the "knack".... how much is retained upon cessation of the physical activities.... I guess i'm trying to seperate what might be (semi)permanent and what may be mechanical and "living integration"....


etc. etc. etc. sorry for the rambling questions.... hope one of those paragraphs makes it clear!


Cheers


There currently is no prescribed regime between the workshops.
I have done 4 now over 5 years.

Reinhard has research going in Germany now that is showing sustained improvement in heart rate variability lasting 6 months after a 3 day workshop.

He also has some remarkable collaborations going on with some German psychiatrists in which he is employing the technique with chronic schizophrenic patients and getting them to loosen up and interact socially.

My own feeling is that this is something that I would love to do as a social activity a couple of times a month.

It is quite amazing - it frees you up-- you end up making so many mistakes that all you can do is laugh.

I have spent most of my life as an outwardly very analytic and scientific type
- I used to be the hardest edged atheist materialist skeptic that you could imagine-- now I look back on that with bemusement (Was that dork really me???).

This process brings out something primitive, something shamanic, that is much closer to "my face before I was born"-- the real me.

There is a workshop coming up in Sydney later this year.
It is cool.

I got into it to become a better guitarist-- but I seem to be coming out as a better person (my musicianship is improving too though :) )

Kunga Dorji
05-21-14, 09:38 AM
The pattern which is pervading the story here is balance.

Some chap :-) talked about the middle way.

The first reaction to the middle way is no way - extreme everything ... ...

And then we see the effect of wikiP/speedball - where the middle way (balance between stimulant and narcotic) is so pleasurable - that people risk and die that way.

The middle way comes up under the definition of stress (recent thread), GABA vs Glutamate, male archetype vs female archetype, SNS vs PNS, low freq EEG vs high freq EEG meeting at Schumann resonance principal node 7.83 Hz, narcotic vs stimulant, amphetamine vs opiate

-*-

Point ?

To hit that middle point - representing a balance point in the physical (physiological) and psychological (EEG state).

What is the ideal physiological state ?
Aerobic respiration.

What is the ideal psychological state ?
In the zone - alpha/theta EEG.

How do we leave our worries behind ?
By having none - through elimination of money ?

-*-

OK - link back to here.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78836&page=9

-*-

What am I thinking ?

That delta space is associated with the deletion of memories - I remember ***nothing***.
That remembering nothing is an essential part of being in the present.

Yeah-- some chap :D

You remember nothing or-- you know nothing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6EaoPMANQM

Kunga Dorji
05-21-14, 09:46 AM
sb... ^ this is touching at the heart... and I hope the premise is explored in more detail.

fwiw... my take on this pseudo-hypothesis is that it is largely instinctual (primary) at heart... tho, the subconscious state is a byproduct or subsequent "relation" or "logic mapping" so to speak... not sure if that makes sense... close to my thoughts on it though...

sorry if that's contra-op-top or tangential... tho' i feel it needs highlighting... on second thought... i can tie my take into the topic... the rhythm would in effect make relation instantaneous... therefore negating the need to impose emotive layers for reference as they are accessible by means of the body integration. in other words, the emotional mapping is fluent and untainted, present with lightness and momentum.

... wow! fancy that! tying two things makes another clearer! ( to me anyway :o )


cheers

One of the big steps to escape ADHD--- is to trust your gut instinct-- and let everybody else figure it out for themselves.
They are not qualified to tell you your instinct is wrong.
They do not see the world from your perspective.

The last comment-- I totally get :)

meadd823
05-23-14, 03:23 AM
Music with a strong beat stimulates the brain and ultimately causes brainwaves to resonate in time with the rhythm, research has shown. Slow beats encourage the slow brainwaves that are associated with hypnotic or meditative states. Faster beats may encourage more alert and concentrated thinking.

Mood music - I used to use certain music to research for a debates other styles to put me in a more mild mood. I have found some people read better with certain styles of music - Some folks are Alan Parsons other Van Halien

Kunga Dorji
05-24-14, 10:26 AM
Mood music - I used to use certain music to research for a debates other styles to put me in a more mild mood. I have found some people read better with certain styles of music - Some folks are Alan Parsons other Van Halien
Yep-- and some are "Buck's Fizz":eek:

wyleops
05-24-14, 10:56 AM
I've been playing the drums for 30 years now and I find that this has helped me with my ADHD. Being able to 'feel' a tempo has helped me learn to slow myself down in certain situations and speak clearly or just remain calm. When I was young my brain was always going at super fast punk rock tempos. Now, I find that swinging triplets is the best for public speaking and concentrating. When I have trouble sleeping due to obsessive thinking, I just start my metronome and put on some headphones and I go right to sleep.

meadd823
05-26-14, 03:35 AM
I couldn't sleep to a metronome just like I can't sleep with a ticking clock - and a coo coo clock forget it . . . . I much prefer the constant humming of a fan it blocks out the electronic buzz of the bed room clock and the horribly noisy sounds of cat grooming! I can go into a trace state with drumming at the proper tempo

Kunga Dorji
05-26-14, 07:00 PM
I couldn't sleep to a metronome just like I can't sleep with a ticking clock - and a coo coo clock forget it . . . . I much prefer the constant humming of a fan it blocks out the electronic buzz of the bed room clock and the horribly noisy sounds of cat grooming! I can go into a trace state with drumming at the proper tempo


One thing to bear in mind here is that there is always a subtle unevenness in the tempo of drumming-- which is not present in the output of a metronome.

mildadhd
05-26-14, 10:18 PM
One thing to bear in mind here is that there is always a subtle unevenness in the tempo of drumming-- which is not present in the output of a metronome.

A few years ago or so, I used to exercise my fingers by playing all 6 strings, 4 notes singly back and forth, up and down the 12 frets on the acoustic guitar, in time with a metronome. I loved it, but never tried sleeping to it. I Starting at 30 beats per minute. (really slow). Changing up a beat per second every week or so, when I felt comfortable,(I stopped before I got passed 60 beats per minute). But I recently got a electric guitar its a lot of more fun. (haven't even played it thur an amp, yet. I know the basic chords, but I can't play the same thing, twice. Realizing I wasn't musician. But I love playing around on my guitar by myself for fun. (but only if all the strings are in tune, although I am unable to tune it, without a electronic tuner myself).

I have no idea what to do with a drum.

Kunga Dorji's term "unevenness" example, reminded me of..when I was in school, our team used to play this song on cassette blaster, on the bus, before a football game. "Unevennessy" together, we would pound on our football pads and helmets, like drums. It was always, one of those uncontrollable laughter moments, everyone laughing , until a lack of air, restoring homeostasis.

There was enough of us to keep it together, the happy freaked out look on my friends faces, when everyone was "pounding" together was really a lot of fun.

I loved the rough and tumble play as well. Pure joy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMLiqEqMQyQ

SB_UK
05-27-14, 04:11 AM
http://jad.sagepub.com/content/17/5/374.abstract
Many EEG studies have reported that ADHD is characterized by elevated Theta/Beta ratio (TBR).

Theta
The findings suggest that RELAXATION THERAPY (RT) represent a hypoactive central nervous system state that may be similar to Stage 1 sleep and that RT may exert their therapeutic effects, in part, through cerebral energy conservation/restoration.
RT produced significantly greater increases in theta activity in multiple cortical regions ... ....

Beta
Beta waves occur at a frequency of 13 to 30 cycles per second. They are usually associated with anxiety, depression, or the use of sedatives.

Wouldn't it appear as though the ADDer is pre-programmed to be in the 'right' state of mind - with a definite connection to evolutionary emergence of this new characteristic based on: "cerebral energy conservation/restoration."

IE the brain is an anchor around our neck in terms of its energetic requirement - selection of a low energy engine 'd be quite the priority.

SB_UK
05-27-14, 04:17 AM
All that we need to ask is what causes ADDers to lose theta and to enter into beta space ?

Most of us here know the answer to that question.

Engaging in activities (educational/workplace) under compulsion which our mind either cannot understand the point of or can explain there's no point in.

No sense of personal reward - no compliance (in the ADDer).
We can't be motivated by the primitive (love of money, power, sexual abuse relations) reward system.
children stare with heroin eyes, heroin eyes, heroin eyes eg morphine usage in rat park.
50:50 fat/sugar (opioid system activation) is the essential basis to our current global T2D/Obesity epidemic.

Solution = Overthrow the global economic system and put in place a new mechanism for global interaction, one which does not involve money; recover personal reward from external (money) reward-reinforcement (cf drug usage).
There's no difference between use of money and use of heroin - both use the same addictive reward system, both operate without a care for the wellbeing of the individual, neither burns itself out (both burn the 'vessel' out), neither leads to happiness (in fact the opposite direction as resistance/tolerance make the body less able to attain 'bliss' state or balance within the body) ... . ... ...

-*-

So - I'm simply suggested that we get reward from behaviours which are personally rewarding and are not able to gain reward from behaviours which are 'material world attachment' rewarding
- which is interesting - because the loss of material world attachment is the effective meaning of life.

We've a head start because we're not (unlike nonADDers) liable to fall into the material world attachment reward system (addictive propensity).

-*-

OK - so how do we feel good about ourselves ?
Overthrow the global economic system and put in place a new mechanism for global interaction, one which does not involve money; recover personal reward from external (money) reward-reinforcement.

And then ?
And then we'll be able to settle back into theta EEG from birth till death.

As simple as that ?
Yes.

Morality is the emergent characteristic of mind - until we have people tending towards morality in a globally permissive (to morality) environment
- we're going to find ourselves in trouble.

SB_UK
05-27-14, 05:02 AM
Yeah-- some chap :D

You remember nothing or-- you know nothing?

The ADDer mind is only really interested in sense.

Since that's what science is meant to be - I guess we have a structure of mind which is equivalent to science.

So science gaining definition from a structure of mind which is globally consistent.

The problem with doing science with a mind which isn't globally consistent and globally challenged, is that the mind will do seemingly quite intelligent things - which aren't actually in the best interests of the species (not globally consistent).

For the most part up until now - science has been wielded by technology pointed towards generating money
- resulting in problematic results.

Nuclear, biological, chemical warfare - pharmaceutical industry, genetic modification industries
- yes fairly 'clever' but not moral - since not consistent with species survival.

Why did people with knowledge exert themselves in this way ?
All depends on the type of mind we're supporting.

As the mind tends towards molecular - the mind cannot see inconsistencies between what it's doing and what everybody else is doing

- once again we arrive at a core flaw within our educational system.

Through encouraging molecular specialization - we generate a species which cannot tell right from wrong because the mind supported cannot integrate all available information into generating appropriate priorities.

There is only 1 priority which the species must take on board.

Eliminating reward (money) so that personal reward can take its place as determinant of an individual's actions.

Kunga Dorji
05-27-14, 10:30 PM
Morality is the emergent characteristic of mind - until we have people tending towards morality in a globally permissive (to morality) environment
- we're going to find ourselves in trouble.


Bullseye.

Reading "Self comes to Mind" by Antonio Damasio- the following comments emerge:
1)Consciousness exists and persists because it orients the organism towards its own survival and motivates the organism by creating a sense of self to which a narrative occurs.

2)As consciousness increases in its complexity the ability to for see threats to survival becomes more sophisticated.

What he does not say- but what is an obvious extension of this idea is that we live in times where it is easy for any fool to see that our long term viability is challenged by environmental threats such as climate change, deforestation, mass extinction (and we are in the midst of what may be the biggest mass extinction of species in the history of the Earth so far) and pollution of the environment by heavy metal and chemical toxins. Our survival is also threatened by increasing aggression induced by competition for scarce resources.
The latter may well trigger a "nightfall war" leading to much more severe environmental destruction- up to and including a nuclear winter.

As consciousness becomes more complex it can only fulfill its role of promoting survival of the organism by supporting mutually supportive empathic behaviour and thus it can be seen that moral behaviour is EXACTLY an emergent property of consciousness (one aspect of mind).

An interesting extension of this line of reason is that I believe it constitutes a formal refutation of the theory that morality can only exist if handed down by a deity.

However- there are traps- especially this one:

Learning to behave in a way that promotes both the survival of one's own organism and the survival of other living beings is complex- and the dangers are confusion, "too much information syndrome" and loss of integration.

Here, strangely we loop back to the beneficial effects of rhythm in uniting consciousness.

( A rather neat tie in back to the original theme, if I do say so myself :D)

SB_UK
05-28-14, 03:33 AM
Here, strangely we loop back to the beneficial effects of rhythm in uniting consciousness.

( A rather neat tie in back to the original theme, if I do say so myself :D)

'Those who fire together wire together, those who wire together fire together'

-*-

What would synchronization feel like if people were to join us in theta EEG ?

-*-

Birds of a feather flock together.

-*-

If people were going to unite into 1 collective - it's reasonable to believe that the group would unite on the 1 model of mind which defines what is in their best interests ie maximize survival likelihood.

-*-

From previously - if theta EEG is considered the doorway into creativity - then presumbaly it's a space where the individual can fast-track construct their mind - if creativity means to extend the mind beyond itself ie to arrive at a higher level of understanding than existed previously.

It makes sense that this is occurring through the individual scaling a species level specification of mind in theta EEG.

-*-

I think that the process of reflection in theta EEG - which can be obtained through becoming synchronized with other people - can take us there.

So - the synchronization can be considered similar to somebody driving the rest to a library.
And the process of personal reflection - reading the 1 sentence (and only 1 sentence) which is in all of the books there.

"You're all dead unless you learn to work together."

-*-

Thing is, is that the dedicated pursuit of individualism cannot occur until we've a stable/sustainable global society to work from
- and so all of those people who believe that a collaborative infrastructure to global community is dull and will turn people into sheep are actually not telling the truth
- we'll find that these people are beneficiaries of inequality in this world and fear a level playing field on which ALL people have the same level of opportunity.

IE that individuality cannot be pursued in this current world - because at present one person's sports field is another person's means of starvation avoidance

- and that really won't do.

-*-

The paragraph above describes the classical left wing (collaborative infrastructure to global community) and classical right wing (individualism) and how we can only have the two simultaneously.
Similarly - it describes what we have in the world currently which is a left/right wing of rentier capitalists who simply benefit not from doing anything but by employing economics/law to FORCE other people to work to keep them in champagne.

-*-

So - we've a mechanism of ensuring true left and right wing ideologies (with the centre embracing the two) and of deleting the material world attached rentier capitalists - addicted to their own demise ... ... and so we have cross party support for a shift to global fully distributed government.

-*-

Personally though I just want to delta EEG in the sun; it's pouring down outside !!

SB_UK
05-28-14, 03:48 AM
It's that connection between synchronization and unified motivation.

It's hard to believe that anybody in theta EEG that chooses to solve questions such as why don't the 1% feel bad ? why do some people have insufficient whilst other too much ? why do the rich in places with greater inequality ALSO suffer premature death ? won't come up with the same answers.

We want liberty equality fraternity ie equality breeding fraternity resulting in liberty conditional on a 'little' mind ... ... but instead all that we're generating is inequality breeding division (right wing extremists are winning elections in UK/France now) breeding wage slavery.

We've a choice:
equality breeding fraternity resulting in liberty

What we have now:
inequality breeding division resulting in wage slavery/addiction to money

Where - the sole difference between these two is the reward system an individual chooses.

If social (for the best for one and for all) - then we'll ALL have lovely lives.
If selfish (for addictive 'pleasure' resulting in an individual driving their own and others (who service their needs) demise) - then nobody (especially the money/power addict who dies prematurely) 'll have a life worth living.

Kunga Dorji
05-28-14, 07:15 AM
It's that connection between synchronization and unified motivation.

It's hard to believe that anybody in theta EEG that chooses to solve questions such as why don't the 1% feel bad ? why do some people have insufficient whilst other too much ? why do the rich in places with greater inequality ALSO suffer premature death ? won't come up with the same answers.

We want liberty equality fraternity ie equality breeding fraternity resulting in liberty conditional on a 'little' mind ... ... but instead all that we're generating is inequality breeding division (right wing extremists are winning elections in UK/France now) breeding wage slavery.

We've a choice:
equality breeding fraternity resulting in liberty

What we have now:
inequality breeding division resulting in wage slavery/addiction to money

Where - the sole difference between these two is the reward system an individual chooses.

If social (for the best for one and for all) - then we'll ALL have lovely lives.
If selfish (for addictive 'pleasure' resulting in an individual driving their own and others (who service their needs) demise) - then nobody (especially the money/power addict who dies prematurely) 'll have a life worth living.

Well- finding a good drum circle would be a good start. :rolleyes:

ruby.149.42
06-02-14, 11:52 PM
This music (currently playing) does it for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_12QwdU1e6Q&list=AL94UKMTqg-9BfhfV7QDGy2080kNJAC_tC&index=15

Far out SB, LOVE this one.

Very interesting thread KD and wholeheartedly agree in the potential for drumming for so many positive MH benefits for all and our kin especially. I use a simple form of body percussion in the mindfulness classes I'm runnign for kids ATM and not only is it wonderfully focusing, there's the big added bonus = they LOVE it! :)

By another weird quirk of timing (?) I'm signed up for a drumming facilitation course which I've had approval to use in my research .. so watch this space .. and pretty sure they're running in Melbourne too if you're interested.

SB, if you've got any more of these toons, please send them on.

Kunga Dorji
06-03-14, 01:07 AM
Far out SB, LOVE this one.

Very interesting thread KD and wholeheartedly agree in the potential for drumming for so many positive MH benefits for all and our kin especially. I use a simple form of body percussion in the mindfulness classes I'm running for kids ATM and not only is it wonderfully focusing, there's the big added bonus = they LOVE it! :)

By another weird quirk of timing (?) I'm signed up for a drumming facilitation course which I've had approval to use in my research .. so watch this space .. and pretty sure they're running in Melbourne too if you're interested.

SB, if you've got any more of these toons, please send them on.

Hi,
the other interesting area is that this ties in so well with John Ratey's research on exercise in ADHD- he really emphasises complex high precision movement (as in martial arts, skatebaording, rock climbing etc) as especially beneficial. So drumming fits nicely in that dynamic.
I got a copy of his book Spark for only $3.99 as an eBook- great value.

SB_UK
06-03-14, 07:25 AM
Far out SB, LOVE this one.

Very interesting thread KD and wholeheartedly agree in the potential for drumming for so many positive MH benefits for all and our kin especially. I use a simple form of body percussion in the mindfulness classes I'm runnign for kids ATM and not only is it wonderfully focusing, there's the big added bonus = they LOVE it! :)

By another weird quirk of timing (?) I'm signed up for a drumming facilitation course which I've had approval to use in my research .. so watch this space .. and pretty sure they're running in Melbourne too if you're interested.

SB, if you've got any more of these toons, please send them on.

The musical chills I get from that piece are amazing.

Bizarrely - more chills the more tired I am.

Something funny going on there - noticed this pattern several times over.

I have to admit - I only listen to Boards of Canada these days -
their music is incredible -

may be an ADDer thing

- found out about the band from an ADDer here who chose the name Iced_Cooley from one of their pieces.

SB_UK
06-03-14, 08:36 AM
Hi,
the other interesting area is that this ties in so well with John Ratey's research on exercise in ADHD- he really emphasises complex high precision movement (as in martial arts, skatebaording, rock climbing etc) as especially beneficial. So drumming fits nicely in that dynamic.
I got a copy of his book Spark for only $3.99 as an eBook- great value.

People say that it's difficult to move and think ie that people often stop moving when they're required to perform some difficult task ... ... presumably the same's true for fine motor activity
- that is - that the point is to get us out of our head.

Is a large part of the puzzle here - simply getting us out from the analytical thought paradigm.

From what I've seen we create insoluble problems and then attempt to solve them ie how to modify a legal system to be fair - when it's fundamentally unfair and need be eliminated to generate a fair society.

Analytical thought is all well and good as long as it's trained on some problem which we actually need to solve.

As far as I can see - since 'the point in life is to be happy' - the only problem we should give any mind time to - is what underscores suffering ?

Simply eliminating that - opens the door to happiness.

And that guy again solved the problem thousands of years ago.

Leaving us with rather the question of attempting to work out what we've been playing at for the last 3000 years.

Attempting to 'get' such a simple message ?

Freedom from Material world attachment - freedom from the love of money and power.

Same basic message everywhere.

In front of me currently:

As for democracy why should we discuss such acknowledged madness ?
-- Alcibiades 414 BC

No ruling elite (law, politics).
No inequality in material world ownership (money, land etc).

-*-

Nobody tells anybody else what to do.

Whether you're rich or poor - you are finite - and toiling for 30 years to pay off a mortgage on a
- and then you die.

What a waste of a life.

freedom from the love of money For the desire of money is the root of alland power.often abbreviated to freedom

EVERYBODY can win.

SB_UK
06-03-14, 08:59 AM
Here's where I want to get -

no fine motor - no cognitive - only highly resolved sensory upload into the cerebellum (cf musical chills <- no evolutionary precedent, no obvious survival advantage <- this is something new)
No animal other than human beings have the prospect of being satisfied by {information, quality} ... ... it's what separates us from predecessor.
ie
no fine motor - no cognitive - only highly resolved sensory upload into the cerebellum
body -> mind -> spirit

Just developmental milestones.

Occurring alongside the loss of the blood glucose elevation reward system.

It may also be involved in some cognitive functions such as attention and language, and in regulating fear and pleasure responses;[1] its movement-related functions are the most solidly established. The cerebellum does not initiate movement, but it contributes to coordination, precision, and accurate timing. It receives input from sensory systems of the spinal cord and from other parts of the brain, and integrates these inputs to fine tune motor activity.
where
http://www.scilearn.com/blog/early-fine-motor-skills-cognitive-skills.php

Adele Diamond (2000) uncovered “significant evidence” for a number of motor-cognition links in the brain. Prior to such analysis, these abilities were attributed to separate areas of the brain: motor skills were centered in the cerebellum and basal ganglia, and cognition in the prefrontal cortex. But Diamond’s research showed that both could be activated during certain motor or cognitive tasks.So we've connection of the cerebellum to motor, cognition ... ... and definitely to sensory

- opening the doors to perception could just result in us completing a metamorphic cycle through physical, mental into immersion within the sensory world.

Personally - I don't have much use for movement, academic analytical thought - and just want to be outside in the sun in complete silence.

The key to the door is unlocked at stage:enlightenment
- a mind which can see how a simple geometric progression of a fundamental substance could instantiate reality.

Why evolution to complexity ?
'cos that's the way it works - the natural science of fundamental substance.

And what should we do about it ?
Generate a fair society to allow people to make the transition to loss of material world attachment.

It's not going to happen if we live in a world where all people chase money, things and power.

-*-

The sensory world
no fine motor - no cognitive - only highly resolved sensory upload into the cerebellum--giving us "The Intense World Theory (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpmc%2Farti cles%2FPMC3010743%2F&ei=6sqNU-rpAsH60gWP5YHABA&usg=AFQjCNExYj4bFoWfc4hof8ap_7qfPAB1zw&sig2=wAuSfnTYSiuMaT9zhYwk6A&bvm=bv.68191837,d.d2k)"

- where the doors of perception are open before the individual is ready.

Kunga Dorji
06-03-14, 06:32 PM
People say that it's difficult to move and think ie that people often stop moving when they're required to perform some difficult task ... ... presumably the same's true for fine motor activity
- that is - that the point is to get us out of our head.


In neurological terms the sensory cortices involved in sensing the world (and hence moving in it are the same ones that are involved in the planning of future movements of any kind-- and as all analytical thought really is directed towards an outcome that is manifested in some movement of our whole body, our typing fingers, our writing hand or our speech- or other parts-- that means that any time we are thinking about anything we are using the sensory cortices for tasks unrelated to the current activity.
Hence the potential for brain overload.
In fact the fact of stopping moving when performing some difficult task is a classic example of dynamic reallocation of working memory.

Now when we have the issues of spinal malalignment and associated forward head posture and balance issues, the nett effect is to greatly increase the complexity of the task of integrating our senses and moving a crooked body in a coordinated fashion on the basis of inaccurate and mismatched sensory input. No wonder these problems gobble up working memory.


Is a large part of the puzzle here - simply getting us out from the analytical thought paradigm.

From what I've seen we create insoluble problems and then attempt to solve them ie how to modify a legal system to be fair - when it's fundamentally unfair and need be eliminated to generate a fair society.

In fact the legal system generates tons of paper work and chains us all to our desks, actively making us less healthy and worsening underlying problems with spinal malalignment.

This little paradox is probably the defining idiocy of our age.


EVERYBODY can win.
Strangely-- yes !

SB_UK
06-11-14, 01:09 AM
Here's an interesting one.

Music I listen to is described as textured.

"intricately textured sounds"
http://www.nme.com/reviews/boards-of-canada/14508

"guitars as facilitators of timbre and textures"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-rock

Cerebellar - motor synchronization - 'fine motion'.

Cerebellar - sensory synchronization - fine texture (aural) as if the music can be touched ?

Sensing more ?

SB_UK
06-11-14, 01:32 AM
So -

Part of the brain that integrates sensory input from the inner ear and from proprioceptors (see proprioception) in muscle with nerve impulses from the cerebrum (see cerebral cortex), coordinating muscle responses to maintain balance ... ...http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Cerebellum

Balance.

The inner has two functions; the first is hearing and the second is balance.http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=21685


Getting closer to connecting balance (textured landscape) / sound (textured soundscape) together.

Extreme sensitivity to rollercoasters - hate them - to all pressure differences ie aeroplanes/climbing mountains
- sensitivity of system relating to transducing information relating to air pressure changes (eg sound waves) into information.

Overpowering sensation on rollercoasters. Too much brash information - sensory overload - pain.
Hate loud noises - fireworks etc ... ...

Sensitive Nerves don't like being overpowered/persistently challenged - will cause them to die.

Quantity/gourmand vs Quality/gourmet

ADDers are informational (quality of sensory experience) beings.

Love quality of sensory flow.

Aesthetic beauty.

Beauty is a concept open only to man -- a new property -- which to be human we must foster an appreciation of.

But mostly kill money.

-*-

Textured soundscape and Textured landscape ie maintain balance are connected -> allowing connection of both -> motor activity / listening to music -> into dopaminergic system activation.

Beauty (Sensory quality) -> reward system activation.

A lovely way of obtaining one's daily dopamine.

Kunga Dorji
06-11-14, 10:58 PM
Here's an interesting one.

Music I listen to is described as textured.

"intricately textured sounds"
http://www.nme.com/reviews/boards-of-canada/14508

"guitars as facilitators of timbre and textures"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-rock

Cerebellar - motor synchronization - 'fine motion'.

Cerebellar - sensory synchronization - fine texture (aural) as if the music can be touched ?

Sensing more ?

Texture-- strangely that one gets me too.
The texture of good subtle use of guitar distortion absolutely thrills me.

ruby.149.42
06-17-14, 06:28 AM
Just read somewhere else on here about Interactive Metronome which I'd not heard of before. KD, interested in your thoughts on how that maps to your Takeina (sp?) world .. and SB to music .. and of course drumming?
All this brings to mind an experience I had last year in Adelaide on a teaching meditation to kids course and we were in the middle of an hour long sit when a big duff-duff party started up in the hall next door and was so loud the walls were shaking in the meditation room! As a bit of background, I spent most of my 20s (and a far whack of my 30s) blissfully dancing to duff-duff in raves and warehouse parties. Hearing that music again while I was in a deep meditative state was a pretty massive A-HAAAAA moment for me. "Rave" or "ecstacy" music .. whatever you want to call it .. there was always something about that beat .. the music could sound completely different if you didn't somehow zone into that beat which was an isomorph .. aaahhhhh.

Kunga Dorji
06-20-14, 05:06 AM
Hi R. ,
Interactive metronome is one of those things I have meant to look into-- by all rights it should be helpful. However-- there are always a million interesting tangents to pursue.

So many interesting, shiny, ideas,
So little time
:)

Seriously, I think it should work.
Though I think Ta Ke Ti Na may be more fun- and better for building social confidence.

(Fun IS important btw-- one of the best antiADHD strategies I know is to preferentially select fun activities, and to find the kernel of fun that is hidden in most activities. It beats boring stuff!)