View Full Version : adhd leading to autism


daveddd
05-30-14, 08:23 PM
this is interesting because it holds true for me


i always kind of doubt an autism diagnosis because i didn't have the tendencies till 12 or 13 years old(and because it was never diagnosed )

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23158218

Developmental associations between traits of autism spectrum disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder: a genetically informative, longitudinal twin study.
Taylor MJ1, Charman T, Robinson EB, Plomin R, Happé F, Asherson P, Ronald A.
Author information

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and associated subclinical traits, regularly co-occur with one another. However, the aetiology of their co-occurrence remains poorly understood. This paper provides the first genetically informative, longitudinal analysis of the interaction between traits of ASD and ADHD, and explores their genetic and environmental overlap.
METHOD:
Parents of approximately 5000 twin pairs completed questionnaires assessing traits of ASD and ADHD when twins were aged 8 and 12 years. Cross-lagged longitudinal modelling explored their developmental association, enabling a consideration of phenotypic-driven processes. Overlapping aetiological influences on traits at age 12 years were explored using bivariate twin modelling.
RESULTS:
Traits of ADHD at age 8 years were more strongly predictive of traits of ASD at 12 years than traits of ASD at 8 years were of traits of ADHD at 12 years. Analysis of traits by subscales assessing specific symptom domains suggested that communication difficulties were most strongly associated with traits of ADHD. Bivariate modelling suggested moderate genetic overlap on traits in males (genetic correlation = 0.41), and a modest degree of overlap in females (genetic correlation = 0.23) at age 12 years.
CONCLUSIONS:
Traits of ADHD at age 8 years significantly influence traits of ASD at age 12 years, after controlling for their initial relationship at age 8 years. In particular, early ADHD traits influenced later communication difficulties. These findings demonstrate the dynamic nature of co-occurring traits across development. In addition, these findings add to a growing body of literature suggesting that traits of ASD and ADHD may arise via similar aetiological processes.

Fraser_0762
05-30-14, 08:30 PM
ASD's don't develop. It's there from the very beginning. It is possible that to a certain extent ADDers may display some symptoms that mimic ASD's at certain stages of their lives. But having an ASD and having symptoms that mimic ASD's are 2 different things.

daveddd
05-30-14, 08:34 PM
developmental disorders don't develop?

says right in the study it does, i believe the study

they are called developmental disorders right?

eclectic beagle
05-30-14, 08:49 PM
I know Brown talks about how children with adhd have issues with social processing (because of executive function impairments), and negative peer assessments of children by children are more reliable than their adult counterparts, and are highly resistant to change due to cascading negative effects across the lifespan.

Hmm, actually, I'd have to go read that passage again.

daveddd
05-30-14, 08:55 PM
hook it up mental

people who meet the criteria for aspergers also have poor executive function

it may be a difference of under controlled regulation (adhd) to over controlled regulation(due to initial under controlled regulation processes)

or maybe an oscillation between the two (like me)

eclectic beagle
05-30-14, 09:41 PM
Well it makes sense, executive functions crosscut other disorders. Will have to compose a more thorough response later.

Stevuke79
05-30-14, 10:12 PM
Fraser, I think you are confusing current clinical diagnostic criteria which require that symptoms be present before early childhood which relates to the notion that both disorders are genetic AND the ongoing study of the underlying biological causes which is separate from what is currently clinically relevant. These traits we are diagnosing follow aetiological processes that we are only beginning to understand. Aetiology itself is fairly new.

In other words, with respect to your reference of the current diagnostic criteria that symptoms must be present in early childhood and don't by definition "develop", that may be our current clinical standard but the study suggests that predictive factor of ADHD traits at 8 for ASD traits at 12 BUT NOT vis versa suggests that the genetic causes have some overlap and the factor determining expression of traits as ASD or ADHD is aetiological in nature. In other words current diagnostic criteria may be insufficient where aetiological factors are not consistent over time. In other words if you have ADHD, with certain environmental factors you may develop ASD. Daviddd's observation.

Nice find Daviddd!

daveddd
05-30-14, 10:20 PM
Fraser, I think you are confusing current clinical diagnostic criteria which require that symptoms be present before early childhood which relates to the notion that both disorders are genetic AND the ongoing study of the underlying biological causes which is separate from what is currently clinically relevant. These traits we are diagnosing follow aetiological processes that we are only beginning to understand. Aetiology itself is fairly new.

In other words, with respect to your reference of the current diagnostic criteria that symptoms must be present in early childhood and don't by definition "develop", that may be our current clinical standard but the study suggests that predictive factor of ADHD traits at 8 for ASD traits at 12 BUT NOT vis versa suggests that the genetic causes have some overlap and the factor determining expression of traits as ASD or ADHD is aetiological in nature. In other words current diagnostic criteria may be insufficient where aetiological factors are not consistent over time. In other words if you have ADHD, with certain environmental factors you may develop ASD. Daviddd's observation.

Nice find Daviddd!

good wording

i believe its increasingly accepted that adhd and specifically aspergers (certain important differences with classic autism) have an overlapping genetic diathesis (vulnerability)

dsm disorders are exclusionary , if there was a specific singular deficit causation factor it would be specified (adhd due to traumatic brain injury)

keeping an open mind greatly improves therapeutic options

eclectic beagle
05-31-14, 12:36 AM
hook it up mental

Barkley mentions how working memory influences vicarious learning ("learning by observation" or whatever), and that the latter pertains to social functioning pretty significantly. Hindsight and foresight (things that also obviously aid in socialization) also depend on working memory. From what I've read, working impairments seem to be fairly common in adhd. I think this touches on another point, "Out of the Fog" claims that there is such a wide variability of symptoms in adhd, while similarities abound for those with the disorder, so do the potential differences. So it sort of seems to me that the potential social impairments in adhd might vary in terms of severity or whether or not they actually exist, depending on the particular person being evaluated.

fracturedstory
05-31-14, 01:11 AM
What have you been smoking?

You develop ASD between 18-34 months. If you don't then you don't have ASD at all. Unless you have some sort of traumatic brain injury or suffer from extreme neglect in childhood. Or vaccines. Yeah. I said it.

A few ASD traits here and there does not equal the full disorder.

daveddd
05-31-14, 01:14 AM
like i said to fraser, ill stick with the professionals

i appreciate your opinion you

read steves post, think outside the box a bit

these things aren't as black and white as some make them out to be

daveddd
05-31-14, 01:22 AM
adhd and autism are both symptom groups

fragile x is a single gene diathesis that causes extreme hypersrousal

this could lead to meeting the criteria for aspergers and adhd , either separately but most often together


or a sister having aspergers and a brother having adhd

think hyperarousal and think of your traumatic brain injury being psychological

fracturedstory
05-31-14, 01:25 AM
they are called developmental disorders right?

Because they affect how one develops. Usually, they are delayed in development when comparing with the development of typically developing children.

I had regressive autism at 2 years old. It wasn't severe but it still happened.

I'm not saying it's because of the DSM being exclusive that I have the view that autism can only start by a certain age, but because it develops while in the womb and symptoms begin showing by around two years old. Rarely, it's earlier than that.

I do think that certain environmental triggers can lead to it. I just think it's simply co-morbid with ADHD, like all the other co-morbids that occur.

I would assume the only reason ASD's seem to appear in ADHD children at around 12 is because of the whole reason why people don't realise they have ADHD until college; they can no longer be able to cope with amount of stress from the extra responsibilities they now face. When you're 12 you have to face a whole new set of social demands. ASD executive functions are now as severe as in ADHD too. It's really because we rather not do something.

And having that beer was a really bad idea, because my brain is like mush right now.

There's more to autism than just a social impairment. I don't even think social communication disorder is actual autism. You need to have cognitive impairments and to suddenly lose skills at 12 years old would worry a lot of parents and teachers too much to be overlooked. It would look like brain damage.

fracturedstory
05-31-14, 01:33 AM
like i said to fraser, ill stick with the professionals

i appreciate your opinion you

read steves post, think outside the box a bit

these things aren't as black and white as some make them out to be
All this study proves is that there are such holes in scientific knowledge that they can pull any theory out of a hat. There's been some really mad ones about the cause of autism that have been taken pretty seriously by the 'professionals.'

Sometimes I think people just want autism when they have really no idea what it's like. That's what having a few traits or the disorder mildly can be like.

I don't know why anyone would even want to relate to autism. Your life is probably more successful than mine. People don't think you could be intellectually disabled when you've got ADHD, so just stick to that.

You know that seeing things in black and white is a core symptom of autism?

daveddd
05-31-14, 01:33 AM
Because they affect how one develops. Usually, they are delayed in development when comparing with the development of typically developing children.

I had regressive autism at 2 years old. It wasn't severe but it still happened.

I'm not saying it's because of the DSM being exclusive that I have the view that autism can only start by a certain age, but because it develops while in the womb and symptoms begin showing by around two years old. Rarely, it's earlier than that.

I do think that certain environmental triggers can lead to it. I just think it's simply co-morbid with ADHD, like all the other co-morbids that occur.

I would assume the only reason ASD's seem to appear in ADHD children at around 12 is because of the whole reason why people don't realise they have ADHD until college; they can no longer be able to cope with amount of stress from the extra responsibilities they now face. When you're 12 you have to face a whole new set of social demands. ASD executive functions are now as severe as in ADHD too. It's really because we rather not do something.

And having that beer was a really bad idea, because my brain is like mush right now.

There's more to autism than just a social impairment. I don't even think social communication disorder is actual autism. You need to have cognitive impairments and to suddenly lose skills at 12 years old would worry a lot of parents and teachers too much to be overlooked. It would look like brain damage.

trauma , abuse, social interactions brain differences can all affect the way we develop

we develop through our early teens


i think your hung up on autism being a singular thing "actual autism"

science has proven that untrue like with my fragile x example

fracturedstory
05-31-14, 01:35 AM
You know what I think? I think I need another beer.

daveddd
05-31-14, 01:35 AM
All this study proves is that there are such holes in scientific knowledge that they can pull any theory out of a hat. There's been some really mad ones about the cause of autism that have been taken pretty seriously by the 'professionals.'

Sometimes I think people just want autism when they have really no idea what it's like. That's what having a few traits or the disorder mildly can be like.

I don't know why anyone would even want to relate to autism. Your life is probably more successful than mine. People don't think you could be intellectually disabled when you've got ADHD, so just stick to that.

You know that seeing things in black and white is a core symptom of autism?

believe me, i never just post a random study of correlation

this is a very well documented topic

Batman55
05-31-14, 01:35 AM
What have you been smoking?

You develop ASD between 18-34 months. If you don't then you don't have ASD at all. Unless you have some sort of traumatic brain injury or suffer from extreme neglect in childhood. Or vaccines. Yeah. I said it.

A few ASD traits here and there does not equal the full disorder.

So you don't believe Asperger's can be self-diagnosed?

I myself have some pretty strong traits of it, esp. routines and rituals, preference for sameness, but of course also the poor social skills. Then there's the problem with conformity and identity--society asks you to conform and blend in, but I feel "out of sorts" if I have to act in a way that clashes with my personality. It leads to a fractured identity. In many ways I feel so delayed, it seems like there has to an element of PDD in there.

As it turns out, though, I'm just diagnosed with ADD. But I feel there is something more going on, and I'm certainly entitled to think that way.

daveddd
05-31-14, 01:37 AM
You know what I think? I think I need another beer.

i think i need another one of those things you accused me of smoking

fracturedstory
05-31-14, 01:48 AM
So you don't believe Asperger's can be self-diagnosed?

I myself have some pretty strong traits of it, esp. routines and rituals, preference for sameness, but of course also the poor social skills. Then there's the problem with conformity and identity--society asks you to conform and blend in, but I feel "out of sorts" if I have to act in a way that clashes with my personality. It leads to a fractured identity. In many ways I feel so delayed, it seems like there has to an element of PDD in there.

As it turns out, though, I'm just diagnosed with ADD. But I feel there is something more going on, and I'm certainly entitled to think that way.

Did I say I don't think people can self-diagnose? No. You and Dave are just making your minds up about what I think. Never assume you think you know what I mean if I don't say it. That's a little glimpse of my PDA. You don't want to stir that wolf up any further.

I just don't see why people think there's this great link between ADHD and autism when so many other disorders can be co-morbid. I'm not just autistic and ADHD, but OCD/bipolar/epileptic/dyspraxic/dyslexic/PDA/ODD/possibly BPD - the list goes on. Those are all common co-morbids. I even have wheat and dairy intolerance. They all do share genes or rather the gene can develop either one of those disorders. The same areas of the brain are affected too.

I really only see autism with the existence of cognitive impairments including rituals and intense interests. Other conditions can mimic it too.

I'm just finding it hard to believe autism suddenly switched on when a child enters high school.

By the way, I'm open minded. I now consider vaccines as being a cause for some autism cases. But I suppose people will still think I'm crazy because the studies don't exactly prove that yet.

******* this forum. Time to get drunk.

daveddd
05-31-14, 01:59 AM
Did I say I don't think people can self-diagnose? No. You and Dave are just making your minds up about what I think. Never assume you think you know what I mean if I don't say it. That's a little glimpse of my PDA. You don't want to stir that wolf up any further.

I just don't see why people think there's this great link between ADHD and autism when so many other disorders can be co-morbid. I'm not just autistic and ADHD, but OCD/bipolar/epileptic/dyspraxic/dyslexic/PDA/ODD/possibly BPD - the list goes on. Those are all common co-morbids. I even have wheat and dairy intolerance. They all do share genes or rather the gene can develop either one of those disorders. The same areas of the brain are affected too.

I really only see autism with the existence of cognitive impairments including rituals and intense interests. Other conditions can mimic it too.

I'm just finding it hard to believe autism suddenly switched on when a child enters high school.

By the way, I'm open minded. I now consider vaccines as being a cause for some autism cases. But I suppose people will still think I'm crazy because the studies don't exactly prove that yet.

******* this forum. Time to get drunk.

hey you started off hostile

thats a lot of disorders

lets compare

i have adhd, aspie, avpd,,ocd, ocpd,social anxiety, general anxiety,panic disorder, nvld,dyspraxia,bipolar , right hemisphere disorder, alexthymia, derealization

all completely separate and unrelated

daveddd
05-31-14, 02:13 AM
Because they affect how one develops. Usually, they are delayed in development when comparing with the development of typically developing children.

I had regressive autism at 2 years old. It wasn't severe but it still happened.

I'm not saying it's because of the DSM being exclusive that I have the view that autism can only start by a certain age, but because it develops while in the womb and symptoms begin showing by around two years old. Rarely, it's earlier than that.

I do think that certain environmental triggers can lead to it. I just think it's simply co-morbid with ADHD, like all the other co-morbids that occur.

I would assume the only reason ASD's seem to appear in ADHD children at around 12 is because of the whole reason why people don't realise they have ADHD until college; they can no longer be able to cope with amount of stress from the extra responsibilities they now face. When you're 12 you have to face a whole new set of social demands. ASD executive functions are now as severe as in ADHD too. It's really because we rather not do something.

And having that beer was a really bad idea, because my brain is like mush right now.

There's more to autism than just a social impairment. I don't even think social communication disorder is actual autism. You need to have cognitive impairments and to suddenly lose skills at 12 years old would worry a lot of parents and teachers too much to be overlooked. It would look like brain damage.

now i somewhat agree with the late stress thing you mentioned

accept you don't have the disorder all along, you have a genetic vulnerability

the late stress then interacts to form the disorder

fracturedstory
05-31-14, 02:17 AM
I'm back. There's something else that doesn't make sense to me. If autism is to develop around adolescence then how come the autistic brain has more differences in structure, neuronal development than the ADHD brain? There are more densely packed neurons, some areas grow too fast and then slow down, plus a whole lot of other changes. There are something like 300 genes that don't exist in the NT brain, and the frontal lobes work more like the temporal lobes.

How does a brain just suddenly rewire itself?

What I really think is going on is that the autism is already there but is so mild no one can pick up on the symptoms, then a few more challenges get thrown its way and it can hardly cope so these symptoms begin to rise to the surface. Autism is basically the brain's way of coping with a stressful environment. That's kind of the Intense World syndrome theory right there.

Either way I can't see autism being that serious when there's been 12 years of normal development. It's not like it's bipolar which can completely change who the person is. Through training I've overcome many symptoms of autism or decreased their intensity. hose primary school years are really important in all forms of development, especially social.

tazoz
05-31-14, 05:12 AM
The biggest problem with the study is that that it is a longitudinal study that was done through a questionnaire at a distance. It depends on the parents knowledge of their children's symptoms and an understanding of how their children think.

To quote the article:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]-->This study was not without limitations; due to the
large sample, we were unable to employ in-depth
clinical assessments. (1744)
As far as I can understand from reading the article the study never really says that ADHD leads to ASPD ,it does say, however, that ADHD symptoms can lead to ASPD traits, mainly problems with communication which seems fairly obvious.

Logically speaking it's unlikely that ADHD and Autism are on the same spectrum as they are at the core dynamically different disorders and lead to pretty much opposite styles of thinking in many ways. It's much more likely that Autism, like depression and anxiety leads to ADHD like symptoms and vice versa which creates a strong correlation between the two disorders which is not genetic. (Not to say that that the disorders can't coexist, they are just separate disorders.) Just to strengthen my argument, here's a study that found no genetic connections between ADHD and Autism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23933821

daveddd
05-31-14, 05:42 AM
The biggest problem with the study is that that it is a longitudinal study that was done through a questionnaire at a distance. It depends on the parents knowledge of their children's symptoms and an understanding of how their children think.

To quote the article:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]-->As far as I can understand from reading the article the study never really says that ADHD leads to ASPD ,it does say, however, that ADHD symptoms can lead to ASPD traits, mainly problems with communication which seems fairly obvious.

Logically speaking it's unlikely that ADHD and Autism are on the same spectrum as they are at the core dynamically different disorders and lead to pretty much opposite styles of thinking in many ways. It's much more likely that Autism, like depression and anxiety leads to ADHD like symptoms and vice versa which creates a strong correlation between the two disorders which is not genetic. (Not to say that that the disorders can't coexist, they are just separate disorders.) Just to strengthen my argument, here's a study that found no genetic connections between ADHD and Autism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23933821

yes, any of us can tear apart any psychological study, as i noted, i try not to pick a random study and place too much relevance on it, massive amounts of research have gone towards this

this was just an example

fragile x is proven to be a monogenic contribution to both adhd and aspergers, so that is a proven genetic link



"Shared familial transmission of autism spectrum and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorders."
by Musser et al., in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abstract
BACKGROUND:

To determine whether familial transmission is shared between autism spectrum disorders and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, we assessed the prevalence, rates of comorbidity, and familial transmission of both disorders in a large population-based sample of children during a recent 7 year period.

METHODS:

Study participants included all children born to parents with the Kaiser Permanente Northwest (KPNW) Health Plan between 1 January 1998 and 31 December 2004 (n = 35,073). Children and mothers with physician-identified autism spectrum disorders (ASD) and/or attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) were identified via electronic medical records maintained for all KPNW members.

RESULTS:

Among children aged 6-12 years, prevalence was 2.0% for ADHD and 0.8% for ASD; within those groups, 0.2% of the full sample (19% of the ASD sample and 9.6% of the ADHD sample) had co-occurring ASD and ADHD, when all children were included. When mothers had a diagnosis of ADHD, first born offspring were at 6-fold risk of ADHD alone (OR = 5.02, p < .0001) and at 2.5-fold risk of ASD alone (OR = 2.52, p < .01). Results were not accounted for by maternal age, child gestational age, child gender, and child race.

CONCLUSIONS:

Autism spectrum disorders shares familial transmission with ADHD. ADHD and ASD have a partially overlapping diathesis.

http://books.google.com/books?id=B4K1tvnravIC&pg=PT44&dq=adhd+autism+shared+genetics&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZJ-JU8qDOsufqAas_oGoBA&ved=0CHQQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=adhd%20autism%20shared%20genetics&f=false


another thing is we may not , but in research autism and aspergers are thought of differently

with autism being a deficit and aspergers being a coping style, so different studies may be looking for different things


as for the thinking styles differing, genotype generally will not determine thinking style, that is of more interest in the phenotype


what i think is a good thought is the over and under controlled (inhibition) self regulation issues, very interesting stuff out there on it

i can't believe in this strong of a coincidence

Lunacie
05-31-14, 12:22 PM
developmental disorders don't develop?

says right in the study it does, i believe the study

they are called developmental disorders right?

No, developmental disorders DO NOT develop.

There are developmental stages where some kids lag behind their peers developmentally.

They are slower to develop social skills, self-regulation skills, certain motor skills, etc.

Batman55
06-01-14, 12:40 AM
How would one know if he/she were affected by Fragile X Syndrome?

Can you have mild Fragile X and not know it, and therefore have a confusing combination of symptoms of ADD, Asperger's, social anxiety, learning issues, etc etc.

If one has a few traits of a whole range of disorders, but it's hard to find a "core" diagnosis, does that increase the chance of having Fragile X?

I was thinking about this again today, actually worrying about it.. could I be some genetic freak? The last time I looked into Fragile X Syndrome was several years ago, and it freaked me out then.. This would definitely be a disorder I *don't* want to have!

daveddd
06-01-14, 04:10 PM
How would one know if he/she were affected by Fragile X Syndrome?

Can you have mild Fragile X and not know it, and therefore have a confusing combination of symptoms of ADD, Asperger's, social anxiety, learning issues, etc etc.

If one has a few traits of a whole range of disorders, but it's hard to find a "core" diagnosis, does that increase the chance of having Fragile X?

I was thinking about this again today, actually worrying about it.. could I be some genetic freak? The last time I looked into Fragile X Syndrome was several years ago, and it freaked me out then.. This would definitely be a disorder I *don't* want to have!

cheek swab

daveddd
06-01-14, 04:11 PM
No, developmental disorders DO NOT develop.

There are developmental stages where some kids lag behind their peers developmentally.

They are slower to develop social skills, self-regulation skills, certain motor skills, etc.

yes. everyone knows what a developmental disorder

anything that affects development

Lunacie
06-01-14, 05:15 PM
yes. everyone knows what a developmental disorder

anything that affects development

I don't know if you're confused, but you're certainly confusing me. :scratch:

Chivalry
06-01-14, 05:42 PM
<del>

daveddd
06-01-14, 06:29 PM
I don't know if you're confused, but you're certainly confusing me. :scratch:

I'm always confused

Lunacie
06-01-14, 07:02 PM
I'm always confused

I'm easily confused, I think.

Batman55
06-02-14, 01:00 AM
cheek swab

I don't want to find out in any kind of definitive way. Would *you* enjoy knowing you're affected by something that, in many cases, causes physical deformity and severe mental disability? If I found out I'm affected by it, I would ascribe even less value to myself, and give up on life completely. These days I'm able to wake up and eat and so on... if I found out I'm just genetic crap, then I would not want to continue doing those things, even.

I want to know what to look for by myself. Just based on the Wikipedia entry, the only genuine "physical sign" I have is double-jointed thumbs (both thumbs.) But if you stretch it a bit more, maybe I fit some other things like muscle weakness, etc etc. Then I fit the "Asperger's, social anxiety, ADD" thing perfectly. Short term mood irritability too, but no full-blown mood disorder.

But this is just based on the Wikipedia entry and as you all should know, sometimes it's not accurate.

What can I do to quiet my mind on this?

Chivalry
06-02-14, 09:08 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-i7Y7atsqk

Stevuke79
06-02-14, 10:00 AM
Guys, I feel like there are two main opposing views in this thread.

One is saying: Aetiological studies of certain disorders suggest that you can actually develop them later in life, which is contrary to how we used to understand the nature of a genetic disorder

The other is saying: Impossible, current diagnostic critera are clear that if you don't have these disorders in early child hood, then if you show symptoms later it just means that you have the traits but not the disorder itself.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, the idea that aetiology influences the development of a disorder is well documented and yes, absolutely contradicts the underlying scientific assumptions of current diagnostic criteria.

Lunacie
06-02-14, 11:19 AM
Guys, I feel like there are two main opposing views in this thread.

One is saying: Aetiological studies of certain disorders suggest that you can actually develop them later in life, which is contrary to how we used to understand the nature of a genetic disorder

The other is saying: Impossible, current diagnostic critera are clear that if you don't have these disorders in early child hood, then if you show symptoms later it just means that you have the traits but not the disorder itself.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, the idea that aetiology influences the development of a disorder is well documented and yes, absolutely contradicts the underlying scientific assumptions of current diagnostic criteria.

I absolutely believe we're born with differences in our brains, but ...

life experiences or events or situations can certainly influence the development of these disorders

making them either more or less impairing, sometimes alternating between those.

Stevuke79
06-02-14, 11:34 AM
That makes sense. And just so we're clear, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. All I'm doing is making the point that we can't say, "yes they can develop later" or "no they can't". The proverbial peer reviewed mainstream scientific jury is still out on that one.

I absolutely believe we're born with differences in our brains, but ...

As far as what you believe, that's great. It's also consistent with most of the current well established science. Our beliefs are our own, but established science and scientific observation changes all the time.

What Daviddd posted was more a question of scientific observation that belief. There are multiple valid ways to understand these things. Right now, from an accepted diagnostic perspective, it's exactly what you're saying...

life experiences or events or situations can certainly influence the development of these disorders
making them either more or less impairing, sometimes alternating between those.

Right now, that's the accepted clinical view.

However, what's coming to light is that while we are born with our genetics, we are not necessarily born with all of our eventual differences in our brains. Some of them will either be present or not based upon aetiological/ environmental factors that may or may not occur later on.

And by the way, this may all be debunked tomorrow. Aetiology is well documented and helps explain many clinical observations that heretofore we have had trouble understanding. Still, tomorrow it may all be debunked and proven wrong. But right now, it's a well established and viable way that we can understand these conditions.

Dizfriz
06-02-14, 02:06 PM
Keep in mind that *all* science is provisional. It must always be kept open that some new information may come in that will change the current understanding.

Dizfriz

Lunacie
06-02-14, 04:03 PM
I don't try to force my beliefs on anyone, they are only my beliefs, but I do back them up with current replicated research when possible.

daveddd
06-03-14, 07:19 PM
there will be a difference first, before autistic symptoms develop in the early teens

like you guys says it takes the right interaction of environment

when you consider autism , its basis (as a symptom based dsm disorder) it rooted in social functioning and avoidance strategies such as obsessive interests

remember things change quite a bit both socially and the body around puberty

daveddd
06-03-14, 07:22 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-i7Y7atsqk

sam vaknin is extremely intelligent and introspective

but mainly a businessman

his "science" is based purely off introspection

no studies or research , or even a real degree

daveddd
06-03-14, 07:26 PM
I don't try to force my beliefs on anyone, they are only my beliefs, but I do back them up with current replicated research when possible.

me neither , i always am made to felt like i am

when really i just a have massive obsessive trait to keep up with current science very well


and i am fairly intelligent, not a lot, but enough to put together different research and see patterns

Lunacie
06-03-14, 08:08 PM
there will be a difference first, before autistic symptoms develop in the early teens

like you guys says it takes the right interaction of environment

when you consider autism , its basis (as a symptom based dsm disorder) it rooted in social functioning and avoidance strategies such as obsessive interests

remember things change quite a bit both socially and the body around puberty

I think I had some autism traits as a little child, but they didn't become impairing until about middle school.
Just got worse and worse over the years. And keep getting worse.
The sensory issues especially keep getting worse.

DistractedLemur
06-03-14, 09:15 PM
You know what I think? I think I need another beer.

:goodpost:

:giggle:

Flia
06-04-14, 06:59 AM
One way is to look at any family with both parents having either ADHD or ASD or both.

The children have a wide range of disorders (as far as I've seen). It can be Tourettes, ADHD, ASD or any combination from mild to severe.

It seems you inherit NPD, not the specific disorder.

Lunacie
06-04-14, 09:03 AM
One way is to look at any family with both parents having either ADHD or ASD or both.

The children have a wide range of disorders (as far as I've seen). It can be Tourettes, ADHD, ASD or any combination from mild to severe.

It seems you inherit NPD, not the specific disorder.

I thought I knew all the acronyms but ... what the heck is NPD? :scratch:

Flia
06-04-14, 09:11 AM
I thought I knew all the acronyms but ... what the heck is NPD? :scratch:

NeuroPhsychiayric Disorders.
= ADHD, ASD and Tourettes (in some definitions also Dyslexia)

Lunacie
06-04-14, 09:26 AM
Thank you Flia.