View Full Version : Apollonian and Dionysian


mildadhd
05-31-14, 02:15 AM
Apollonian and Dionysian are interesting terms.

..The Apollonian is based on individuality, and the human form which is used to represent the individual and make one being distinct from all the others.

It celebrates human creativity through reason and logical thinking.

By contrast, the Dionysian is based on chaos and appeals to the emotions and instincts.

Rather than being individual, the barriers on individuality are broken down and beings submerge themselves in one whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian

Abi
05-31-14, 03:43 AM
I am distinctly Dionysian. :)

someothertime
05-31-14, 04:56 AM
new terms to me...

periph... are you playing with these in relation to ADHD? or is it more like a heads up to these any comment thing?

the first one sounds a bit contradictory to me....

It celebrates human creativity through reason and logical thinking.

thy head goes buggy on that bit :scratch:, anyone rephrase that for me?

mildadhd
05-31-14, 09:52 AM
My first introduction to the terms Apollonian and Dionysian where in the research discussion quote below.

My understanding of the terms Apollonian and Dionysian are limited to Prof. Panksepp's quote below, the opening post wiki link and some dictionary definitions I looked up on-line.

While I don't think that the terms are completely accurate with current brain research, I am fascinated by some basic similarities, some of the general ideas expressed by the Greek mythological terms Apollonian and Dionysian, and the actual biological/psychological relationship occurring between the higher neocortical (self regulation) and the lower subcortical (complex unconditioned emotional response systems).

(Side note, these mythological topics are subjective and there are important complex brain systems involved in addition/between higher and lower brain areas that I am leaving out for simplicity)


*underlined below by Peripheral.


(p 10) 6. The physiological effects of music: with a focus on chills evoked by music

A considerable amount of work has been devoted to analyzing the effects of music on the body.

The fact that music would have fairly robust effects on various body parameters is to be expected simply from the fact that music arouses emotions, and emotions are characterized by many autonomic changes (for a summary of early work see Critchley and Henson, 1977 and for more recent work see Hodges, 1995; Steinberg, 1995).

In this context, it is important to emphasize that different individuals have distinct physiological responses to music (Nyklicek et al., 1997; Vander-Ark and Ely, 1992) suggesting that personality may be an important component of how people respond to music.

Although still unexplored territory, the manner in which musical likes and dislikes relate to temperamental variability is a question that deserves empirical attention.

It may even help explain why some people take the affective (Dionysian) and others more cognitive (Appolonian) points of view to music appreciation.

Our approach here is decidedly Dionysian.

Emotional sounds and the brain: the neuro-affective foundations of musical appreciation (http://www.musikament.at/b3/Panksepp%26Bernatzky.pdf)


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mildadhd
05-31-14, 10:22 AM
new terms to me...

periph... are you playing with these in relation to ADHD? or is it more like a heads up to these any comment thing?

the first one sounds a bit contradictory to me....


It celebrates human creativity through reason and logical thinking.

thy head goes buggy on that bit :scratch:, anyone rephrase that for me?


I think ADHD is partly an overactive Dionysian, partly due to a lack of Apollonian. :)


I don't think in general, the relationship between higher cognitive systems and lower affective systems are separate.

The Greeks did not consider the two gods to be opposites or rivals, although often the two deities were interlacing by nature. (see OP wiki link)

To me brain systems/function together as a whole, like concept of the ying and the yang.

Where there is a little bit of ying in the yang, and a little bit of yang in the ying.

(They are not split into to exactly different halves, are overlapping, to some extent, specifics also depends on the age/stage, level control, etc, being discussed)

I don't think higher functions are all to "celebrate".

I don't think lower functions are all "chaos".

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mildadhd
05-31-14, 10:27 AM
I am distinctly Dionysian. :)

I don't think any of us, are distinctly Dionysian, but I do think we lean toward overactive Dionysian, due partially to our lack of Apollonian.


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peripatetic
05-31-14, 11:04 AM
Have you been perusing nietzshe's birth of tragedy? I do think sublimation as he later works out us an interesting concept, but I'm wary of any and all dualisms. x

peripatetic
05-31-14, 11:05 AM
new terms to me...

periph... are you playing with these in relation to ADHD? or is it more like a heads up to these any comment thing?

the first one sounds a bit contradictory to me....



thy head goes buggy on that bit :scratch:, anyone rephrase that for me?

Perhaps consider the distinction between to create and to be creative?

mildadhd
06-02-14, 12:24 PM
Perhaps consider the distinction between to create and to be creative?

Wow is this fun.

..creature and to create and to be creative?


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SB_UK
06-03-14, 02:09 PM
Emotional sounds and the brain: the neuro-affective foundations of musical appreciation (http://www.musikament.at/b3/Panksepp%26Bernatzky.pdf)


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In contrast, there is a great deal more evidence for how music effects electroence-
phalographic (EEG) parameters independently of affective issues.
Isn't it just setting a pace ie slow in theta, bit faster in alpha ... ... really fast when exercising ?

-*-

But EEGs are surely related to mood ie slow sad, fast anxious ?

-*-

Is there some connection to the cerebellum ie loss of synchronization, fine motor action via cerebellum - the cerebellum picks up fine synchrony in recorded music ?

mildadhd
06-04-14, 12:33 AM
(P 139 (http://www.musikament.at/b3/Panksepp%26Bernatzky.pdf))"..how we are moved by music and how we produce moving music"..

[ Dionysian?]"..how we are moved by music, and how we produce moving music" [Appolonian?]


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mildadhd
06-04-14, 01:10 AM
Isn't it just setting a pace ie slow in theta, bit faster in alpha ... ... really fast when exercising ?

-*-

But EEGs are surely related to mood ie slow sad, fast anxious ?

-*-

Is there some connection to the cerebellum ie loss of synchronization, fine motor action via cerebellum - the cerebellum picks up fine synchrony in recorded music ?

All of the above? :)
My understanding of the terminology in the above and below is limited.
EEGs seem better for understanding Appollonian but not so much Dionysian.
I need to spend some time understanding how the different machines and terms, theta, alpha and the role of the cerebellum. etc.
I could be wrong but I think one of the directions the ROFC runs in is the cerebellum, so the cerebellum would be effected by an ROFC impairment?
If I understand correctly music chills involve the "heart of emotions", the PAG, which MRI, would measure better?
I need to learn more about 30 to 60, and 22hz and 50 hz and lots of other stuff.
But I am definitely interested in learning more about the relationships between.
Please leave room for error, but I wanted to reply, interesting directions to learn more about.




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mildadhd
06-04-14, 01:36 AM
I would assume that music chills possibly occur during positive emotions (SEEKING),(LUST),(CARE) (PLAY) as well anger(RAGE)and sad(GRIEF/PANIC) and types of anxious (FEAR) and (GRIEF/PANIC), also depends on individual temperament and experiences?


Opinions?

mildadhd
06-09-14, 02:15 PM
Drumming and attention. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1649551#post1649551)



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