View Full Version : Medicinal and non-medicinal options?


mildadhd
07-14-14, 01:15 PM
I was having a great discussion in the misc treatment section regarding a list of non-medicinal options (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1664351#post1664351) , and wondered..

What the differences is between, medicinal and non-medicinal options?

They are both types of medicine.





P

mildadhd
07-14-14, 01:42 PM
Sleep has got to be as important as clinical medication for ADHD?


P

SB_UK
07-15-14, 06:07 AM
I was having a great discussion in the misc treatment section regarding a list of non-medicinal options (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1664351#post1664351) , and wondered..

What the differences is between, medicinal and non-medicinal options?

They are both types of medicine.

P


https://www.petsastherapy.org/

Sun + Dogs - bonus.

Anything medical (pharmaceutical, artificial chemical) is not in anybody's best interests.

Lunacie
07-15-14, 10:49 AM
This has had a LOT of views but only one response.

I think maybe other posters are just as confuzzled by the topic as I am.

Are you saying you consider things like good sleep and good diet to be "medicinal"?

SB_UK
07-15-14, 12:14 PM
It's interesting to ask why dog owners who give their dogs to sick children for a while - do it in their spare time and charge no money.

Whereas particularly private medics/dentists/vets are some of the most viciously greedy people you'll ever meet.

The pet owner feels happy (personal reward) when s/he sees a sick kid smile.

The private medics/dentists/vet derives reward only from increasing their bill.

If there is a medic/dentist/vet who disagrees and is principled - then support the elimination of money and practice for personal reward.

Ahhh - I thought not - which is why we're going to have to learn how to prevent disease.

mildadhd
07-15-14, 12:16 PM
...Are you saying you consider things like good sleep and good diet to be "medicinal"?



Yes, thanks, "medicinal", essential medicine.

Although, I just became consciously aware of the medicinal value of sleep and nutrition, etc..

So I posted this thread in the open discussion section, to discuss and explore and learn the best terminology to use, to describe essential medicinal health requirements, etc.

Opinions, terminology, etc is appreciated.

P

SB_UK
07-15-14, 12:21 PM
There's 1 fundamental difference between the 2 major techs.

Info tech
Bio tech

In Info tech - we created it and so know exactly what we're doing when we modify it.
In bio tech - we didn't create and we don't understand the genome (nor will ever by virtue of epigenetics) - and so we shouldn't fiddle - because we don't know what harm we'll do in the process.

We are Gods of Information tech.
We're playing God with Bio tech and making a complete hash of things.

Antibiotics - bad
Pain killers - bad
Biologics - bad
Statins - bad
Aspirin - bad

The bio techies are a disaster happening.

Standard tech (ie physical tools like electric saws) are intermediate - built to last AND 100% recycle-able when they die in the hands of your great great grandchildren -- but otherwise - no.

mildadhd
07-15-14, 12:56 PM
Thanks SB UK

Great points, for the discussion.

My father had type one diabetes, was very fit, very active, etc. but required to take insulin injections 3 times a day.

And I have always thought to myself, if he didn't take insulin, I would have never met him.

He would have probably died, before I was born.

I do think that Prevention should always be the goal.

but in the case for my father, prevention was not an option.

And insulin required.

It seems like there is some order of priority, in preventing , and treating health issues.

All that being said, I can't prove it, but I know when my father was an infant, during World War II, I think the distress of his city being bombed, played a role in the expression of type one diabetes.

P

SB_UK
07-15-14, 01:48 PM
Thanks SB UK

Great points, for the discussion.

My father had type one diabetes, was very fit, very active, etc. but required to take insulin injections 3 times a day.

And I have always thought to myself, if he didn't take insulin, I would have never met him.

He would have probably died, before I was born.

I do think that Prevention should always be the goal.

but in the case for my father, prevention was not an option.

And insulin required.

It seems like there is some order of priority, in preventing , and treating health issues.

All that being said, I can't prove it, but I know when my father was an infant, during World War II, I think the distress of his city being bombed, played a role in the expression of type one diabetes.

P

T1D (all autoimmune disorders) must be prevented.

I'm still working on this kinda' assumption:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10878625/Fasting-for-three-days-can-regenerate-entire-immune-system-study-finds.html

We should be able to delete self-reactivity by lifestyle.


Basic idea is out there:
Nutritional sufficiency in early life can influence the incidence and time of onset of autoimmune diabetes in animal models ( Pedersen et al . 1999 , Oge et al . 2007 ). Altered dietary protein content has been shown to exacerbate diabetes, a high-protein diet accelerated the onset of disease ( Schneider et al . 1996 ) while a protein-rich high-fat diet increased b -cell loss by apoptosis in pre-diabetic NOD mice ( Linn et al . 1999 ). We report here that a LP but isocalorific diet can delay the onset of diabetes in the NOD mouse.
Edge of starvation.

Dead simple - we need the body to ditch the rubbish (autophagy) - and we can do that by living on the edge of starvation.

If people could imagine what their house 'd look like if their waste water pipes, sewage pipes were blocked - and if their bin men didn't come around to empty any of their bins - ie people living atop of excrement - well that'd be the human body without fasting (Autophagy)
- we're not designed to eat - we've been evolutionarily selected to need little food.

Survival of the fittest - the converse though is death to the fittest upon eating more than a basal minimum.

SB_UK
07-15-14, 02:08 PM
Definition of starvation.

3-4 days complete fasting
1 day ad libitum eating from a range of proper foods

EVOO
Cold pressed oils
Properly soaked/sprouted nuts, seeds, legumes, grains
MUFA-rich foods
Probiotics (rye, garlic, onion)
Fermented foods - kimchi, tempeh, miso
Sea vegetables
All low GI veggies,
Low GI fruit
Quinoa, chia, amaranth

- and even a small amount of rubbish.

Just stuff that people already know is healthy
- and for the most part - HATE.

Lunacie
07-15-14, 04:25 PM
Yes, thanks, "medicinal", essential medicine.

Although, I just became consciously aware of the medicinal value of sleep and nutrition, etc..

So I posted this thread in the open discussion section, to discuss and explore and learn the best terminology to use, to describe essential medicinal health requirements, etc.

Opinions, terminology, etc is appreciated.

P

Hm, okay.

When I think of "medicinal" I think of things that are used to treat illness (from mustard plasters and bandaids to antibiotics and surgery).

I think of things like good sleep and nourishing food to promote continued good health, not so much as medicinal.

mildadhd
07-15-14, 05:02 PM
The effect of mirthful laughter on stress and natural killer cell activity.



Abstract

CONTEXT:
A recent survey of rural Midwestern cancer patients revealed that humor was one of the most frequently used complementary therapies. Psychoneuroimmunology research suggests that, in addition to its established psychological benefits, humor may have physiological effects on immune functioning.

OBJECTIVE:
To determine the effect of laughter on self-reported stress and natural killer cell activity.

DESIGN:
Randomized, pre-post test with comparison group.

SETTING:
Indiana State University Sycamore Nursing Center, which is a nurse-managed community health clinic in a mid-sized, Midwestern city.

PARTICIPANTS:
33 healthy adult women.

INTERVENTION:
Experimental subjects viewed a humorous video while subjects in the distraction control group viewed a tourism video.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Self-reported stress and arousal (Stress Arousal Check List), mirthful laughter (Humor Response Scale), and immune function (chromium release natural killer [NK] cell cytotoxicity assay).

RESULTS:
Stress decreased for subjects in the humor group, compared with those in the distraction group (U32 = 215.5; P = .004). Amount of mirthful laughter correlated with postintervention stress measures for persons in the humor group (r16 = -.655; P = .004). Subjects who scored greater than 25 on the humor response scale had increased immune function postintervention (t16 = 2.52 P = .037) and compared with the remaining participants (t32 = 32.1; P = .04). Humor response scale scores correlated with changes in NK cell activity (r16 = .744; P = 001).

CONCLUSION:
Laughter may reduce stress and improve NK cell activity. As low NK cell activity is linked to decreased disease resistance and increased morbidity in persons with cancer and HIV disease, laughter may be a useful cognitive-behavioral intervention.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12652882/

P

mildadhd
07-15-14, 05:22 PM
Hm, okay.

When I think of "medicinal" I think of things that are used to treat illness (from mustard plasters and bandaids to antibiotics and surgery).

I think of things like good sleep and nourishing food to promote continued good health, not so much as medicinal.

Anything that has medical health benefits seems like a type of medicine to me.

If I was type one diabetic, and my blood sugar was extremely low, even a chocolate bar could save my life.

My father rarely ever bought bought me pop, junk food etc, but he used to carry a chocolate bar in the car, that nobody ever ate.

And my father rarely ever let me eat junk food, one Halloween he even through out most of my candy.

But he used to have fast acting glucose, in his night table, by his bed, provided by his doctor, I think was packaged by the Canadian diabetic association, if I remember correctly, that I have actually squirted in his mouth while he was having a diabetic seizure, due to low blood sugar.

Seems to depend on individual circumstances, to some degree?

Post prevention?

I'm becoming more and more fascinated with this subject.





P

mildadhd
07-15-14, 05:47 PM
Definition of starvation.

3-4 days complete fasting
1 day ad libitum eating from a range of proper foods

EVOO
Cold pressed oils
Properly soaked/sprouted nuts, seeds, legumes, grains
MUFA-rich foods
Probiotics (rye, garlic, onion)
Fermented foods - kimchi, tempeh, miso
Sea vegetables
All low GI veggies,
Low GI fruit
Quinoa, chia, amaranth

- and even a small amount of rubbish.

Just stuff that people already know is healthy
- and for the most part - HATE.

SB UK

Is there such a thing as preventative medicine verses postventative medicine?

because I totally agree with your stance on prevention, and am benefiting from a low balanced healthy food intake, for ADHD.

And I am slowly working on the length of time I go without food, and the concepts do seem to make me happier.

Although my father would probably have died within a day, if he tried fasting for three days.

Opinion?

P

HADDaball
07-15-14, 09:31 PM
With long term health in mind, I like the idea of treating ADD with diet or low harm treatments.

I'm trying out a multi with extra B vitamins and Iron. It seems to help a bit.

Low fat, high starch diet seemed to help. The trouble was losing too much weight.

any suggestions?

SB_UK
07-16-14, 02:10 AM
postventative medicine?



Don't like postventative but

Something like a -
techno biosensor to assist the user in dispensing insulin as close to biological necessity as possible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/business/international/novartis-joins-with-google-to-develop-contact-lens-to-monitor-blood-sugar.html?_r=0

And then constant application of exercise, altered diet, stress relief ie all epiD proven modalities for improving blood glucose control.

But - not really interested in what we should do after the horse has bolted - because this emphasis prevents us from securing the horse in the barn

especially when people are naturally resistant to prevention particularly since there's no money to be made by pharma in prevention.

You know
- the establishment organization that is responsible for law prevents justice.
- the establishment organization that is responsible for teaching prevents education.
- the establishment organization that is responsible for government prevents equality.
- the establishment organization that is responsible for medicine prevents healthiness.
- the establishment organization that is responsible for wealth (money) ensures poverty.


Monasteries (eg Athos) don't have any of the above and monks're healthy.

Western style living features human parasites parasitic on human parasites.
You parasitize (rentier capitalism,payday loans) or you die.

SB_UK
07-16-14, 02:20 AM
Don't like postventative but


So attracted to heart rate/gps/blood pressure monitors/weight/body fat monitor - have all of these but not in 1 unit - which monitor us during/after a form of exercise ie long distance but particularly interval training
- and where we can see the improvement ie improved fitness with time training.

But if you look the incredibly powerful techno world is there already - Apple, Samsung are now producing adverts based around this form of monitoring.

Should be easily possible to write a program which assimilates your physiological parameters and then translates them into a personalised routine - that's the sort of thing that we're about to see ... ... ... ie an intelligent personalised training regime based on your actual data which records improvements.

So we upload our characteristics into a resistance training unit and the program runs automatically - ditch all of the silly many buttons on the front of exercise machines.

Yay! - making the good guys - personal trainers and nutritionists redundant through tech now.

Won't rest until everybody who works for money goes home and stays at home until they're ready to come out of their house and work for free (personal reward).

SB_UK
07-16-14, 03:21 AM
Imagine debugging a computer program by systematically testing whether inserting each line of code ever written - one at a time - seems to make your program work.

That's the basis to drug development and it's dumb.

AstraZeneca moving global HQ and R&D to Cambridge by 2016 ... access to more than 2 million compounds in AstraZeneca's library ... ...

SB_UK
07-16-14, 03:25 AM
Combine the immune stem cell immune cell regeneration publication above with eg

Short-term calorie restriction enhances skeletal muscle stem cell function

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22560075

The body regenerates under calorie restriction.

It's a pathway to human regeneration.

Everybody can do it.

All it requires is to keep it zipped.

http://cdn4.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/migration_catalog/article25771465.ece/4ba75/ALTERNATES/h342/UK+News+10-1.jpg

ruby.149.42
07-16-14, 10:25 PM
Should be easily possible to write a program which assimilates your physiological parameters and then translates them into a personalised routine - that's the sort of thing that we're about to see ... ... ... ie an intelligent personalised training regime based on your actual data which records improvements.


Been waiting for this for a loooooooong time. Frustrates the hell out of me that it's not out yet because adaptive exercise technology is not rocket science. Wii Fit was getting close-ish with EA Active 2 (http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/-rd8-giao4uvuqqbymyhzcn__zfuwsdb) but they ditched it several years ago and now putting all their bucks back into games where people keep their backsides on the sofa rather than moving. The great thing about that one was that it was extremely highly motivating and got me exercising every day without fail .. but not enough bucks for shareholders no doubt. Vast majority of people want to play GTA5 with a can of coke on one side and bowl of popcorn on the other.

Nothing very interesting came out of the annual exergamer conference earlier this year .. if you're aware of anything decent, do tell.

What I'd like to see is them to wrap a daily exercise and meditation programme together. Build in all the same motivational work they've put into EA2 as well as the better online meditation apps e.g., Insight Timer and you'd have people exercising and meditating regularly and the world would be a happier place.

SB_UK
07-17-14, 04:53 PM
Been waiting for this for a loooooooong time. Frustrates the hell out of me that it's not out yet because adaptive exercise technology is not rocket science. Wii Fit was getting close-ish with EA Active 2 (http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/-rd8-giao4uvuqqbymyhzcn__zfuwsdb) but they ditched it several years ago and now putting all their bucks back into games where people keep their backsides on the sofa rather than moving. The great thing about that one was that it was extremely highly motivating and got me exercising every day without fail .. but not enough bucks for shareholders no doubt. Vast majority of people want to play GTA5 with a can of coke on one side and bowl of popcorn on the other.

Nothing very interesting came out of the annual exergamer conference earlier this year .. if you're aware of anything decent, do tell.

What I'd like to see is them to wrap a daily exercise and meditation programme together. Build in all the same motivational work they've put into EA2 as well as the better online meditation apps e.g., Insight Timer and you'd have people exercising and meditating regularly and the world would be a happier place.

Excellent post !

exercising and meditating - yes possible!

Thinking occulus rift for education.
Oculus rift on a direction treadmill for exploring places, buildings, events (for education also).

My personal goal would be assisted stretching using tech
- would require a little robotic assistance.

I'm as flexible as a doughnut that has been stored under a cover on the moon since time began.

ruby.149.42
07-17-14, 09:43 PM
Thinking occulus rift for education.
Oculus rift on a direction treadmill for exploring places, buildings, events (for education also).

Wasn't what I was thinking at all but it's certainly got me thinking.

A thousand moons ago prob (1991 - 1994??) I worked near Picaddilly and used to go and play a VR game up at the Trocadero once a month on payday (I think it was about 5 quid for a very short few minutes - massively expensive at the time!). We wore these massive VR helmets, gloves and "chased" our competitor around on different levels. It was clunky and fairly useless TBH but being a big gamer at the time I had huge hopes for the ones that I presumed would soon follow .. and they never really came to much, or not in my gaming years. So yeah, the possibilities here really are quite amazing and mind-boggling if we had the $$ to get it going on a massive scale. You mention "exploring places" and it's got me thinking: all you would need is a VR helmet and then some sort of scanning equipment which I think they use in PSX or XBox X and if programmed nicely : you could send kids off on all the great adventues of the world as part of their education. The could spend time with Homer, time in the trenches, visit great debates, all countries - goodness only knows what. BUT in the hands of the dark side ... I'm thinking Wii and Manhunt (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/manhunt-2-most-violent-game-yet-3433101/)would look like a walk in the park. 'Nuff said.

I wasn't actually thinking of combining them. I know some people get a great deal out of mindful walking and find swimming laps meditative, but you don't need technology for that. I also don't think (may be wrong), you can access (or certainly, that it's as easy to access), deeper meditative states when you've got your eyes open and other stuff going on.

My dream exercise / meditation tech would give you a daily program based on your current ability in both / fitness in both / stress levels age, body composition etc etc. It would scan your body and ideally have some sort of neuro-feedback component going on in it as well. It would programme for you based on available time and you would start off doing the physical part and then it would get you to sit or lay down and guide you or start you off on your cushion time. Then we've got our wiggles out you see and particularly for those of us that are a bit H and struggle sitting still with our eyes shut .. then, after exercise, it's much easier to fall into those blissful meditative states. And I reckon once you get people to experience those blissful meditative states, then, they will come back for more and more and more and then, they will learn to shut off the DMN and start moving towards thinking of others and not about themselves the whole bl00dy time. Maybe then, people will be more open to the whole getting rid of money gig. But not while they're spending most of their day in ME-land.

And what happy little vegemites we would be eh?
Lots more to say on this but need to get to work.

SB_UK
07-18-14, 04:44 AM
:-)
Nothing really to add; complete agreement.

I think EEG entrainment can be performed using a particular oscillation of visual and aural signal ie that it's possible to assist meditation using the eyes and ears together - I've this thing
:http://www.elixa.com/mental/10color.htm

Don't know if it works though - all we need is a little help from science:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/EEG_cap.jpg

I can't play any game that takes me out of daydream mode and so all killing is off limits because I just get stressed out when it's happening -

my sorta' games just involve travelling around beautiful imagery - doing nothing in particular - which you can do in GTAV :-).

SB_UK
07-18-14, 04:59 AM
.. then, after exercise, it's much easier to fall into those blissful meditative states.

Been looking at this recently - partic the sort of exercise where you're exhausted afterwards

- trying to get exhausted (physical) using weights - trying Tabata interval training is just giving me asthmatic fits. Foot turned black from sprinting - so shifted to bike and I've just destroyed my bike chain / rear cassette ... ...

it is not easy to maintain fitness.

About to try a front aspect snorkel to assist with swimming (I'm useless at breathing in the pool) and really want a pair of trainers (maybe molded to our feet using 3d technology) - where we can simply saw off the sole (I go through soles really quickly) and stick a new one on.

These kinda ideas:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81TlsDhEdpL._SL1500_.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGXGp6EuxAo

-*-

So I guess the cheapest exercise routine 'd just be walking//running with a pair of shoes we can re-sole - am thinking of switching to an internal gear hub to prevent destroying my bike's gears and the front mounted snorkel to improve swimming.
Have a personal stereo which can be used in the pool ... ...

Wondering whether brain wave entrainment using a simple stereo whilst doing these 3 exercises 'd help.

Forgetting the personalised schedule for education (exactly like physical education) which tech offers ie to train us to add quicker, to multiply quicker, to identify the countries of the world quicker

- really would like some technologically assisted method of stretching.
Once again improvements logged so we can have an automated system for scheduling improvement.

Ever seen the mechanical exoskeletons in the Matrix ? That kinda' idea.

-*-

If I were to summarise what I'm after in all of the suggestions above.

It's just a system for monitoring ability and for intelligently improving ability through ultra-fine monitoring. It's nice to see that eg one's flexibility has improved by 10% in a year ... ... but nicer to know that we're on a schedule which'll maximise future improvements.

SB_UK
07-18-14, 05:07 AM
Ooops!

Purpose of all of the above is to demonstrate that true medicine (epidemiology, prevention) doesn't require any of the standard approaches in medicine ie the application of an entirely artificial chemical agent.

The entire basis to drug discovery is bogus - not elegant

- unlike the meeting of art [perfectly green] and technology [potentially eprfectly green].

Not too negative about games like GTA - because they've helped to bring our level of graphical complexity up, have helped to shift people onto online gaming ... ... just waiting for it all to come together and for us to see us return to the client server model of Unix and to shift away from us all having devices which need to be replaced on 6 monthly cycles.

Ideally the one device we need to access the network would be little more than a network card wired to a projector - but we're not quite there yet.
Hate hardware !

ruby.149.42
07-20-14, 03:36 AM
For me it's all about finding the motivation. Pre-parenthood I found all those gym classes heaps of fun and that in itself was motivating. Motivation for exercising at home is tricky. The EA thing was great as highly, highly motivating so you could give that one a go if you've got a Wii .. and it not you can probably pick up cheap as cheap 2nd hand for the full kit.

If you want to get more flexibility, try this (http://www.pranamaya.com/online-courses/introduction-to-insight-yoga.html)- it's a free Insight Yoga session which is sort of mindfulness based yoga and fabulous.

Snorkel idea is excellent and I do the same as otherwise swimming laps is all too hard.

Walking / jogging = try barefoot Bilbo.

The other thing I do is I have a standing desk and I do a lot of walking on the spot when I'm reading stuff and when I'm watching video online I do squats and lunges etc. Another good one is breaking up worktime with 2 min breaks every hour with different stuff e.g., 2 mins star jumps, 20 push-ups, 20 sit-ups etc. Keeps brain activated while working and also keeps body moving.

There needs to be some sort of public health announcement about sitting slumped over keyboards all day long. Sooooooo many negative effects (http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20140407/sitting-disease-faq)across the board, but it's also a missed opportunity to get some exercise in if you raise the desk level and bin the chair. There are some very expensive standing desks around or you can do what I did and just raise existing desk height by grabbing some cheap timber blocks from the hardware store. Milk crates would probably do it too.

Apparently you can buy standing desks with built in treadmills .. that one is on my wish list and then no need for separate exercise routine or expensive trainers at all.

ruby.149.42
07-24-14, 07:26 PM
- trying Tabata interval training is just giving me asthmatic fits. Foot turned black from sprinting -

it is not easy to maintain fitness.



There was an article about this in one of the local papers here on the weekend and now I see why it rang a bell. Looks good and will try out this week. Might go easy on the sprint bit though.

SB_UK
07-25-14, 02:42 AM
Tried walking barefoot yesterday.
Just complicated by having to find clean grass and a relatively sunny day.
Liked it.
Will continue ... ... ...