View Full Version : What is Attachment and Attunement?


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mildadhd
07-25-14, 02:49 AM
-A attunement relationship is as important a factor as ADHD medication, for the treatment of ADHD.

-Emotionally healthy attuned primary caregiver/infant relationship is one of the most powerful factors in the treatment of ADHD.

-The attachment/attunement process is more likely to be interfered with, when an infant is born with a more emotionally sensitive ADHD temperament.(pre executive).


In this thread I would like to explore the question:

What is attachment and attunement?





P

MADD As A Hatte
07-25-14, 02:58 AM
In this thread I would like to explore the question:

What is attachment and attunement?
P

Attachment theory is a foundation stone of modern psychology. Here's a link to the highly reputable "about" site.

http://psychology.about.com/od/loveandattraction/a/attachment01.htm

I can't help you with the attunement thing.

mildadhd
07-25-14, 03:11 AM
Here is a great outline for discussion

LEARNING OBJECTIVES

This is an intermediate to advanced level course. After completing this course, mental health professionals will be able to:

-List and discuss four critical mechanisms in attachment transactions.
-Describe how emotional transactions between mother and infant shape developing right brain circuits.
-Explain how the right brain stores internal working memory of attachment in implicit/procedural memory.
-Describe how and why the orbitofrontal cortex acts as a control system of attachment.
-Discuss how right brain circuits are necessary for optimal social-emotional functioning across the life span.

Secure Attachment and Right Brain Development (http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course063.php)

by Allan N. Schore, Ph.D.

mildadhd
07-25-14, 03:37 AM
Note about the primary caregiver.

THE AREAS OF THE CORTEX responsible for attention and self-regulation develop in response to the emotional interaction with the person whom we may call the mothering figure.

Usually this is the birth mother, but it may be another person, male or female, depending on circumstances.

Although for the sake of convenience, I will at times refer to this person only as the mother, the word should always be understood to refer to whoever the primary nurturing figure may be--father, mother, or grandparent, foster parent or adoptive parent of either gender...



Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", P 69.


i!i

mildadhd
07-25-14, 04:31 AM
Bold by Peripheral

SMALLER, LESS ACTIVE, LESS DEVELOPED BRAIN REGIONS

3-10% reduced regional volumes in these 5 regions:

 Orbital-Prefrontal Cortex (primarily right side)

 Genetics contributes to under-development of this region while acquired ADHD may be related to smaller inferior dorsolateral frontal region

 Basal Ganglia (mainly striatum & globus pallidus)

 Cerebellum (central vermis area, more on right side)

 Anterior cingulate cortex (mostly shows under-activity)

 Corpus callosum – forward aspect or splenium

 Size of this network is correlated with degree of ADHD symptoms, particularly inhibition

 No gender differences

 2-3 year lag in brain development but achieving typical brain volumes by age 16

 Results are not due to taking stimulant medication




http://www.caddac.ca/cms/CADDAC_pdf/EmotioninADHD_Barkley.pdf


i!i

mildadhd
07-25-14, 05:38 PM
Genetically and biochemically, we know that ADHD is characterized by an atypical dopaminergic process (Lou et al., 2004) tied to the dopamine D4 receptor gene (DRD4) as mediating susceptibility to ADHD (El-Faddagh et al., 2004). This identifies the mechanisms of midbrain control of attention and motor behavior as being important in ADHD (Ernst, Zametkin, Matochik, Pascualvaca, Jons, & Cohen, 1999), but does not clarify the origin of the dopaminergic dysfunction as seen in children with ADHD. Although it is generally presumed to be genetic, we note that the same processes could result from environmental causes or from the interaction of genetic and environmental conditions (Halasz & Vance, 2002).

http://www.psykologtidsskriftet.no/?seks_id=31533&a=2


MEWE

mildadhd
07-26-14, 07:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNNsN9IJkws

Lunacie
07-26-14, 07:35 PM
A lack of parent/child attunement has not been shown to be a factor in ADHD.
It is not an attunement disorder. It could be comorbid along with ADHD.
Any parent can be taught how to better parent a child with ADHD.


THE AREAS OF THE CORTEX responsible for attention and self-regulation develop in response to the emotional interaction with the person whom we may call the mothering figure.

Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", P 69.

Can you provide a link to studies that show adult/infant interaction either promotes
or stunts the development of attention and self-regulation?

.

mildadhd
07-26-14, 11:15 PM
It is not an attunement disorder.



Lunacie,

Did I say ADHD was an attunement disorder?

Who said ADHD was an attunement disorder?

If I did in the past, I would like to clarify, can you quote who said, ADHD was an attunement disorder?

Can you provide a link to studies that show adult/infant interaction either promotes or stunts the development of attention and self-regulation? (Lunacie)

Let me work on this question, the link in post # 3 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1667447&postcount=3) in this thread has a lot of research on the subjects.

P

Lunacie
07-26-14, 11:32 PM
Lunacie,

Did I say ADHD was an attunement disorder?

Who said ADHD was an attunement disorder?

P

I inferred that you were saying ADHD is an attunement disorder from what you wrote and the quote you posted from Dr. Mate.

Now I infer that you do not think that ADHD is an attunement disorder.

Communication can be difficult when discussing theories with no background evidence.


Now that I've answered your questions would you please answer mine?

2nd) Can you provide a link to studies that show adult/infant interaction either promotes
or stunts the development of attention and self-regulation?

mildadhd
07-26-14, 11:50 PM
I inferred that you were saying ADHD is an attunement disorder from what you wrote and the quote you posted from Dr. Mate.

Now I infer that you do not think that ADHD is an attunement disorder.



For the record.

I've never read or heard Dr.Mate call ADHD an attunement disorder, either.



I will work on your next question.

Communication can be difficult when discussing theories with no background evidence. (-Lunacie)

Did you read the link in post # 3 ?

Secure Attachment and Right Brain Development (http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course063.php#Course)

by Allan N. Schore, Ph.D.

I think Dr.Schore's is one of the top researchers on the subjects, link in post # 3 notes lots of research on the subjects.

I will work on a more layman version, with some quotes and links, please give me a little time to reread the information, in regards to your question.

P

Dizfriz
07-27-14, 09:24 AM
Lunacie,

Did I say ADHD was an attunement disorder?

Who said ADHD was an attunement disorder?

If I did in the past, I would like to clarify, can you quote who said, ADHD was an attunement disorder?
You have many times described ADHD as a result of attunment and attachment issues. You have strongly advocated Mate's opinion on attachment and attunment causing ADHD for several years. In other words it is the parent that causes ADHD in the child. This is not true.

Here are Mate's statements from his book Scattered concerning this: I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors. Scattered P69-70

I do not think it is a matter of bad genes or bad parenting, but I do believe it is a matter of genes and parenting. Scattered xvii First page of the introduction.

Both you and Mate advocate that ADHD is disorder of attachment and attunement resulting in ADHD.

Have you forgotten all of this? We started debating over this in 2011 and still it continues. Why?

Simply enough we have no evidence that parenting has any part of causing ADHD-period. That is just the way it is, it is not a disorder of attunment and attachment.

Dizfriz

Lunacie
07-27-14, 10:02 AM
For the record.

I've never read or heard Dr.Mate call ADHD an attunement disorder, either.



I will work on your next question.



Did you read the link in post # 3 ?

Secure Attachment and Right Brain Development (http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course063.php#Course)

by Allan N. Schore, Ph.D.

I think Dr.Schore's is one of the top researchers on the subjects, link in post # 3 notes lots of research on the subjects.

I will work on a more layman version, with some quotes and links, please give me a little time to reread the information, in regards to your question.

P

We agree that attention and self-regulation are key components of ADHD, right?

Dr. Mate may not use those exact words "ADHD is an attachment disorder" ...
but that certainly seems to be the gist of his meaning when he says

"the areas of the cortex responsible for attention and self-regulation develop
in response to the emotional interaction with the ... mothering figure."

He is saying "... in response to the degree of attunement between infant and mothering figure."


I skimmed through the first one third of that link, very dense reading and a lot of reading.
So far I haven't seen a connection between lack of attunement and resulting ADHD.

daveddd
07-27-14, 10:39 AM
I inferred that you were saying ADHD is an attunement disorder from what you wrote and the quote you posted from Dr. Mate.

Now I infer that you do not think that ADHD is an attunement disorder.

Communication can be difficult when discussing theories with no background evidence.


Now that I've answered your questions would you please answer mine?

2nd) Can you provide a link to studies that show adult/infant interaction either promotes
or stunts the development of attention and self-regulation?

well, its known adhd isn't one specific disorder, so its tough to say what causes what


but there is tons of writing that shows parent/child interaction effects self regulation

Dizfriz
07-27-14, 11:34 AM
well, its known adhd isn't one specific disorder, so its tough to say what causes what. No we have some good ideas about the causes of ADHD. Mostly it seems to be genetics but it has to be left open for other possibilities. That is how science is done.

By far the greatest reseach evidence suggests that ADHD is highly hereditry in nature, making heredity one of the best substantiated etiologies for ADHD.Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (Third Edition) Russell Barkley 2006 page226

This is pretty much what the evidence currently shows.


but there is tons of writing that shows parent/child interaction effects self regulationYes but the question here is does it cause ADHD? So far the answer seems to be a clear "no".

Dizfriz

daveddd
07-27-14, 01:27 PM
i thought adhd was self regulation issues?


I'm beginning to understand the science thing with this stuff a little better


i think it tends to put extreme limitations on psychology

is there studys proving that poor attunement doesn't cause adhd , or is it just because it can't really be logically proven

or because of evidence of genetic contributions , if thats the case i don't think that rules anything else out

every personality disorder on the book has strong genetic contributions , but we know it takes life events to activate them

Dizfriz
07-27-14, 04:02 PM
i thought adhd was self regulation issues? It is but problems with self regulation, self control are the result of the executive functions and the neurology of ADHD. A good description of the executive functions is that they are the mental tools that allow us to get things done and meet our needs with focus on working with others to do this. The executive functions do not cause these things but allow them to happen. So a deficit in self control hurts our ability to get our needs met.

I'm beginning to understand the science thing with this stuff a little better

Good, to me it is a fascinating subject and I have been interested in how it works for most of my life.


i think it tends to put extreme limitations on psychology It does but those limitations are a part of doing science and are quite necessary in order to give trust to the results.

is there studys proving that poor attunement doesn't cause adhd , or is it just because it can't really be logically proven Good question, let me take a stab at it.

Science cannot prove. By its very nature (based on inductive reasoning mainly) it has to leave open the possibility that new evidence may come in that will change the picture. For this reason all science is provisional in nature. All theories are provisional and works in progress, never proven and always subject to change.

Since we cannot prove we have to rely on disproving. What we try to do is falsify or disprove theories. The more the theory stands up to these attempts, the stronger it is seen to be.

In the case of Mate's theory of attunment and attachment, there has been no evidence that I am aware of that has been found to support it at least so far (that provisional part is important) and there is a good bit of evidence potentially falsifying it. In other words, it has not been supported and it has been at least partially falsified. The fact that there are children who have very good attunment from their parents and very good attachment but who are found to be ADHD plus there are children with terrible attunment problems and little attachment but who are not found to be ADHD is a strong potential falsifier for Mate's theory.


That does not mean that Mate is wrong, it just means that his theory has not been supported and there is evidence against it. As a result, few serious researchers pay much attention any more to his ideas.

Hope that helps a little. I started out writing a much longer post but it has been too many dang years since I studied this stuff and I kept tripping over myself so had to move back to something a little simpler. I suspect you are not all that interested in null hypothesis anyway.

Dizfriz

Lunacie
07-27-14, 04:04 PM
well, its known adhd isn't one specific disorder, so its tough to say what causes what


but there is tons of writing that shows parent/child interaction effects self regulation

What does that mean ... "adhd isn't one specific disorder ..."?

It's not bipolar or schitzophrenia or autism. It is specifically ADHD.

Yes it's a spectrum disorder, but that means it can be mild or severe or anything between.

There are subgroups, but they are part of the ADHD spectrum, not any other disorder.


As Dizfriz has already point out in this thread - poor parenting does not CAUSE ADHD.
It can certainly cause some maladaptive behavior in terms of self-regulation, but it doesn't actually cause ADHD.
.

daveddd
07-27-14, 04:17 PM
What does that mean ... "adhd isn't one specific disorder ..."?

It's not bipolar or schitzophrenia or autism. It is specifically ADHD.

Yes it's a spectrum disorder, but that means it can be mild or severe or anything between.

There are subgroups, but they are part of the ADHD spectrum, not any other disorder.


As Dizfriz has already point out in this thread - poor parenting does not CAUSE ADHD.
It can certainly cause some maladaptive behavior in terms of self-regulation, but it doesn't actually cause ADHD.
.

in the world of professional psychology adhd is a group of symptoms, those symptoms can arise from a number of different causes (brain damage, alcohol;ic moms, genetic neurological disorders)

do you disagree with barkley that adhd is a disorder of self regulation?

i don't understand what you and dizfriz mean when you say it can cause poor self regulation, but it doesn't cause adhd?


do you have evidence that genetics combined with caregiver problems in attunement (aiding the child in self regulation) cannot cause a disorder in self regulation (adhd)

I'm guessing you don't, so poor parenting (a nasty insult and word twist by you) doesn't cause all cases of adhd or hasn't been proven to cause adhd (due to ethical limitations on the studies needed) would be more appropriate




this book is a good start to a better understanding of the development of self regulation (adhd)

http://books.google.com/books?id=o9DG7crxtZoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=handbook+of+self+regulation&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wVTVU7DFFMqOyAT52YDgDw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=handbook%20of%20self%20regulation&f=false

daveddd
07-27-14, 04:22 PM
my mother has had major depression for most of her adult life (including flattened affect) , so she definitely would not have been able to internalize my intense temperament and emotions and transfer them back to be regulated

i really don't appreciate you blatantly saying that is poor parenting, over and over and over again

its extremely insulting

SB_UK
07-27-14, 04:48 PM
What is attachment and attunement?


'no one really gets me'

failure in attachment and therefore also in attunement ?

Horrible terms like mindfulness, executive function which you can't be absolutely sure what other people mean by them.

Mind you - there's wobble in all words.

Desire to connect communication to telepathy/miror neurones/empathy and to attachment/attunment,

eg 'I'm really happy' - what does that mean ?

Dizfriz
07-27-14, 05:05 PM
in the world of professional psychology adhd is a group of symptoms, those symptoms can arise from a number of different causes (brain damage, alcohol;ic moms, genetic neurological disorders) The question is can they be diagnosed as ADHD. This is key.

do you disagree with barkley that adhd is a disorder of self regulation? I agree with Barkley but poor self regulation can come from different causes and not necessarily be ADHD.

i don't understand what you and dizfriz mean when you say it can cause poor self regulation, but it doesn't cause adhd? I am not sure what you refer to by "it", could you clarify a little? Again, poor self regulation may indicate ADHD but it does not have to. It could be the result of other issues which have to be ruled out before a diagnosis of ADHD can be given.

do you have evidence that genetics combined with caregiver problems in attunement (aiding the child in self regulation) cannot cause a disorder in self regulation (adhd) That is not the way science works. It can't be proved that it cannot but we have no evidence that, as far as I am aware, that supports this and some evidence against this idea.

I'm guessing you don't, so poor parenting (a nasty insult and word twist by you) doesn't cause all cases of adhd or hasn't been proven to cause adhd (due to ethical limitations on the studies needed) would be more appropriate Dave, if you are responding to Lunacie, she is saying specifically that poor parenting does *not* cause ADHD.


It is helpful if you could indicate who you are responding to in your posts. Here I am not sure.

Dizfriz

daveddd
07-27-14, 05:20 PM
i was talking about lunacie, i quoted her

again i get what your saying , i just don't buy the method

judging by your support and the time you put in here, I'm going to say you're an exception, not the rule , when it comes to psychologists

due to moving around , plus different facilities I've been locked in, I've seen several doctors in my life (and this tends to follow literature)

I've never had one ask, "do you think your mother was properly attuned to your emotional needs as a child, or did something interfere with that process"

and depression in mothers has a very high correlation to adhd and other behavioral disorders in there kids (like you say, not proven, but certainly not unproven)

now i know, you know ADHD is a group of symptoms with several causes (yet it seems based on context and posters you don't assert that), that makes it tough for me to understand your differential of adhd and other disorders

especially based on the fact that neglect (RAD) is only one , and a rare form of interference of the development of self regulation (see depression example above)

Lunacie
07-27-14, 05:24 PM
in the world of professional psychology adhd is a group of symptoms, those symptoms can arise from a number of different causes (brain damage, alcohol;ic moms, genetic neurological disorders)

do you disagree with barkley that adhd is a disorder of self regulation?

i don't understand what you and dizfriz mean when you say it can cause poor self regulation, but it doesn't cause adhd?


do you have evidence that genetics combined with caregiver problems in attunement (aiding the child in self regulation) cannot cause a disorder in self regulation (adhd)

I'm guessing you don't, so poor parenting (a nasty insult and word twist by you) doesn't cause all cases of adhd or hasn't been proven to cause adhd (due to ethical limitations on the studies needed) would be more appropriate




this book is a good start to a better understanding of the development of self regulation (adhd)

http://books.google.com/books?id=o9DG7crxtZoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=handbook+of+self+regulation&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wVTVU7DFFMqOyAT52YDgDw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=handbook%20of%20self%20regulation&f=false


Dr. Barkley argues that the critical deficit associated with ADHD is the failure to develop the capacity for self-control or self-regulation.

He suggests that this results primarily for biological reasons, and not because of parenting or lack of attunement.


Genetics combined with caregiver problems can make it more difficult for the child to develop coping skills and self-regulation,
but I haven't seen any evidence that lack of attunement or caregiver problems actually causes ADHD.


Therefore, poor parenting, or lack of attunement, has not been proven to cause ADHD in offspring.

daveddd
07-27-14, 05:29 PM
Dr. Barkley argues that the critical deficit associated with ADHD is the failure to develop the capacity for self-control or self-regulation.

He suggests that this results primarily for biological reasons, and not because of parenting or lack of attunement.


Genetics combined with caregiver problems can make it more difficult for the child to develop coping skills and self-regulation,
but I haven't seen any evidence that lack of attunement or caregiver problems actually causes ADHD.


Therefore, poor parenting, or lack of attunement, has not been proven to cause ADHD in offspring.

i have to say your assertion that lack of attunement is poor parenting tells me you know very little about the topic

you may blame a mother for being depressed and called her a terrible parent, but i have problems seeing it that way (and so does all of literature, this is a straw man argument formed among the public, especially psych forums)

I've seen barkley clearly recognize that most cases of adhd have a strong genetic component , are you aware that applies to most every disorder in the dsm?

I've never seen barkley assert that biology alone causes adhd, just that in most cases its required, do you see the difference?

Lunacie
07-27-14, 05:30 PM
my mother has had major depression for most of her adult life (including flattened affect) , so she definitely would not have been able to internalize my intense temperament and emotions and transfer them back to be regulated

i really don't appreciate you blatantly saying that is poor parenting, over and over and over again

its extremely insulting


Your mother displayed poor parenting, through no fault of her own.
I place no blame or insult on her by calling it poor parenting.

My own parenting skills were certainly affected by my undiagnosed and untreated
ADHD, depression, anxiety, PTSD, SPD, migraine disorder, and fibromyalgia.

(frankly, my doctor sucked)

My parenting skills were also poor because I didn't have good examples.

daveddd
07-27-14, 05:32 PM
Your mother displayed poor parenting, through no fault of her own.
I place no blame or insult on her by calling it poor parenting.

My own parenting skills were certainly affected by my undiagnosed and untreated
ADHD, depression, anxiety, PTSD, SPD, migraine disorder, and fibromyalgia.

(frankly, my doctor sucked)

My parenting skills were also poor because I didn't have good examples.

yet for you, this plethora of conditions and poor examples had nothing to do with your childs adhd???

daveddd
07-27-14, 05:33 PM
do you believe having adhd makes us bad people, you must if you assert another condition makes one a bad parent

Lunacie
07-27-14, 05:38 PM
i have to say your assertion that lack of attunement is poor parenting tells me you know very little about the topic

you may blame a mother for being depressed and called her a terrible parent, but i have problems seeing it that way (and so does all of literature, this is a straw man argument formed among the public, especially psych forums)

I've seen barkley clearly recognize that most cases of adhd have a strong genetic component , are you aware that applies to most every disorder in the dsm?

I've never seen barkley assert that biology alone causes adhd, just that in most cases its required, do you see the difference?

Why do you disagree that lack of attunement results in poor parenting?

I haven't "blamed" anyone.

As I pointed out before, Dr. Barkley says that PARENTING DOES NOT CAUSE ADHD.

I didn't say biology alone causes ADHD (although I tend to that line of thinking),
only that there has been no evidence that parenting (alone or in combination with biology)
is the cause of ADHD.

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble seeing the difference.

daveddd
07-27-14, 05:43 PM
Why do you disagree that lack of attunement results in poor parenting?

I haven't "blamed" anyone.

As I pointed out before, Dr. Barkley says that PARENTING DOES NOT CAUSE ADHD.

I didn't say biology alone causes ADHD (although I tend to that line of thinking),
only that there has been no evidence that parenting (alone or in combination with biology)
is the cause of ADHD.

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble seeing the difference.

no one has stated bad parenting alone causes adhd, or any parental functions

thats another one of your fictitious arguments you've put together


although, i do understand your strict biological view of adhd as a coping mechanism , a lot of us have gone through that stage

Lunacie
07-27-14, 05:47 PM
yet for you, this plethora of conditions and poor examples had nothing to do with your childs adhd???

I said that poor parenting (for whatever reason) can make it more difficult for a child to learn self-regulatory skills.
But I don't believe poor parenting causes ADHD.


do you believe having adhd makes us bad people, you must if you assert another condition makes one a bad parent

I do see a difference between choosing to be a neglectful or harmful parent
versus lacking the skills or having circumstances prevent being a good parent.

When I say "poor parenting" I am referring to parenting ability
and not making any judgment about the value of the person.


It seems I have inadvertently tread upon your toes, which was not my intention,
and I'm sorry that my casual wording has caused any bad feelings.

Lunacie
07-27-14, 05:51 PM
no one has stated bad parenting alone causes adhd, or any parental functions

thats another one of your fictitious arguments you've put together


although, i do understand your strict biological view of adhd as a coping mechanism , a lot of us have gone through that stage


Strawmen and fictitious arguments?

My exact words were: "there has been no evidence that parenting (alone or in combination with biology) is the cause of ADHD."

If you choose to leave out the words "or in combination" and focus on the one word "alone" then that can be seen as a strawman or fictitious argument.

And with that, I think perhaps we would both do well to take a break from the intense emotions so I will go away and do something else for now.

daveddd
07-27-14, 05:52 PM
I said that poor parenting (for whatever reason) can make it more difficult for a child to learn self-regulatory skills.
But I don't believe poor parenting causes ADHD.




I do see a difference between choosing to be a neglectful or harmful parent
versus lacking the skills or having circumstances prevent being a good parent.

When I say "poor parenting" I am referring to parenting ability
and not making any judgment about the value of the person.


It seems I have inadvertently tread upon your toes, which was not my intention,
and I'm sorry that my casual wording has caused any bad feelings.

I'm not really hurt, just confused

bad parenting as a reference to the inability to do something seems odd to me

can i see that reaction from parents with ADHD children , absolutely id imagine i would take that stance as well

but i see it as the same thing as calling having adhd , living badly, when i know from your history you do not believe that

daveddd
07-27-14, 05:58 PM
What does that mean ... "adhd isn't one specific disorder ..."?

It's not bipolar or schitzophrenia or autism. It is specifically ADHD.

Yes it's a spectrum disorder, but that means it can be mild or severe or anything between.

There are subgroups, but they are part of the ADHD spectrum, not any other disorder.


As Dizfriz has already point out in this thread - poor parenting does not CAUSE ADHD.
It can certainly cause some maladaptive behavior in terms of self-regulation, but it doesn't actually cause ADHD.
.

thats not what you said here

my misunderstanding here is that it seems believed that barkley has delineated adhd as a distinct biological entity

I've read all of barkleys stuff and like it, I've just failed to take this stance based off his writings

he has indicated a genetic contribution (but again that relates to all mental health disorders)

and it seems that you guys think teasing out poor self regulation due to lack of attunement and the neurology of adhd is a common and solid practice


i just don't see this as fact or even possible right now

daveddd
07-27-14, 06:17 PM
and although it may not be necessary , for clarity purposes i do believe there are traits and temperaments that are 100% biological

just that traits and disorder aren't the same thing

who knows, maybe those same biological traits that lead to adhd can be advantageous is the disorder is not developed, or is removed

Dizfriz
07-27-14, 06:37 PM
Dave,

I think we are getting confused here.

It is Gabor Mate who is saying that parenting is part of the causes of ADHD (genes and parenting) not Lunacie or myself. We are arguing against that idea.

I am not real sure what you are trying to say. Could you possibly clarify a little. Thanks.

Dizfriz

mildadhd
07-27-14, 06:42 PM
-A attunement relationship is as important a factor as ADHD medication, for the treatment of ADHD.

-Emotionally healthy attuned primary caregiver/infant relationship is one of the most powerful factors in the treatment of ADHD.

-The attachment/attunement process is more likely to be interfered with, when an infant is born with a more emotionally sensitive ADHD temperament.(pre executive).




The OP question is, "What is attachment and attunement?" (in regards to treatment for ADHD.)

To understand the ADHD treatment topics above, I think we need to understand what attachment and attunement are, in general?

That is partly why I started this thread.

MADD As A Hatte gave a good general example of Attachment Theory in post #2. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1667444&postcount=2)

What is Attachment?

Attachment is an emotional bond to another person. Psychologist John Bowlby was the first attachment theorist, describing attachment as a "lasting psychological connectedness between human beings."

So the next question is what is attunement?

In my experience the most powerful example of attunement relationship, is early non verbal emotional eye contact, existing between infant and primary care giver.

(I was hoping to discuss distressed attachment and attunement relationships and right brain development after we figured out what attachement and attunement where?)

(please excuse my unprofessional layman approach)

I am confident in what I know, but I find it hard to express what I know.




P MEWE

daveddd
07-27-14, 06:46 PM
The OP question is What is attachment and attunement? (in regards to treatment for ADHD.)

To understand the ADHD treatment topics above, I think we need to understand what attachment and attunement are, in general?

That is partly why I started this thread.

MADD As A Hatte gave a good general example of Attachment Theory in post #2. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1667444&postcount=2)

So the next question is what is attunement?

One layman example of attunement relationship is early non verbal emotional eye contact, between infant and primary care giver.

I was hoping to discuss distress affecting attachment and attunement relationships and right brain development after we figured out what attachement and attunement where?




P MEWE

attunement , as i see it is the combining of the psyches of two humans through non verbal (not ruling out verbal) interaction

a common problem in adhd

daveddd
07-27-14, 06:56 PM
Dave,

I think we are getting confused here.

It is Gabor Mate who is saying that parenting is part of the causes of ADHD (genes and parenting) not Lunacie or myself. We are arguing against that idea.

I am not real sure what you are trying to say. Could you possibly clarify a little. Thanks.

Dizfriz

what i mean is that there is a ton of literature besides mate) that also theorize poor self regulation as contributed to early caregiver attachment styles

i feel that does NOT say bad parenting causes adhd

while the literature of poor self regulation does not always specifically call self regulation "adhd" , i think they are talking about the same thing

it seems to be assumed that lack of attunement indicates bad parents, thats incorrect, except in the rare cases of neglect

i base this perceived relationship of the general development issues of self regulation and what we now call ADHD, based on the complete lack of biomarkers found for adhd,

also, the wide variety of phenotypical expressions (large differences but all textbook) in adults with the primary diagnosis of adhd


so i don't view adhd , and the massive psychological research on the development of poor self regulation as distinct, simply due to semantics

Lunacie
07-27-14, 07:00 PM
thats not what you said here

my misunderstanding here is that it seems believed that barkley has delineated adhd as a distinct biological entity

I've read all of barkleys stuff and like it, I've just failed to take this stance based off his writings

he has indicated a genetic contribution (but again that relates to all mental health disorders)

and it seems that you guys think teasing out poor self regulation due to lack of attunement and the neurology of adhd is a common and solid practice


i just don't see this as fact or even possible right now

I've haven't claimed that Dr. Barkley says ADHD is only due to genetics/biology.

But there isn't any evidence of other causes at this time.

Maybe we just don't know how to test for other causes yet.

Maybe genetics/biology is the only answer.

Could be either one.

The only FACT at this point is that genetics/biology is definitely involved.

daveddd
07-27-14, 07:11 PM
I've haven't claimed that Dr. Barkley says ADHD is only due to genetics/biology.

But there isn't any evidence of other causes at this time.

Maybe we just don't know how to test for other causes yet.

Maybe genetics/biology is the only answer.

Could be either one.

The only FACT at this point is that genetics/biology is definitely involved.

i see that point

unfortunately if all psychologists were only able to treat people based on the only fact that we can prove is genetic contribution , suicide rates and people having to pointlessly surrender to untreatable (or only partially treatable) conditions would skyrocket

an example would be marsha linhan , world leader in BPD research , whom ironically hypothesized that BPD stemmed from a biological predisposition to poor self regulation

she traveled and became a master in mindfulness, then applied it to her therapy , with fantastic results, which in turn formed many other therapies, results getting better with each improvement

my point is, and this is not to be mean , is that black and white thinking has no (or a minimal )place in psychology, even though its great for physics and whatever else

if you read barkleys last couple books he seems to stress this

mildadhd
07-28-14, 12:36 PM
The facts are there is more than one factor causing ADHD.

Here is some very very similar threads discussing causation factors.

Causes of ADHD-Dizfriz's thoughts (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1514138#post1514138)

Causes of ADD: Peripheral's thoughts (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1514760#post1514760)


To clarify the question in this thread is, "What is attachment and attunement? (in regards to treatment)

I agree with Dizfriz's quote below.


Originally Posted by Peripheral (formally known as GBYR)

Although I do think attachment and attunment are factors in all treatment.



More than just factors, these along with ADHD specific parent training are some of the most powerful factors in the treatment of ADHD.

Without attachment and attunment, all the parent training in the world will do little good.

Take care,

Dizfriz



From thread,Origin of ADHD has everything to do with proper treatment.




A daily healthy attachment and attunement relationship with at least one mature primary caregiver are essential factors in early infant affective psychoneurobiological development.

I think it is very important we all understand attachement and attunement, in regards to proper ADHD treatment.

There are many factors that I would like to discuss with other members.

Example "Oppositionality", Etc.

But to discuss and understand oppositionality, etc, requires understanding the essential, attachment and attunement relationship, first.



P MEWE

mildadhd
07-28-14, 02:14 PM
Dizfriz,

1)Could you explain what an attunement relationship is , and how it is such a powerful factor in the treatment of ADHD?

2)And what would be the repercussions on psychoneurobiological development, if accidental unintentional adoption/anxiety/depression like, types of distress, interfered with the daily attunement relationship/process, especially during early infancy?




P

Lunacie
07-28-14, 02:24 PM
Dizfriz,



1)Could you explain what an attunement relationship is , and how it is such a powerful factor in the treatment of ADHD?

2)And what would be the repercussions on psychoneurobiological development, if unintentional types distress interrefered with the daily attunement relationship/process, especially during early infancy?




P

I don't know that Dizfriz's arthritis will allow him to answer such complex questions.

mildadhd
07-28-14, 04:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNNsN9IJkws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_5u8-QSh6A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVwFkcOZHJw

Dizfriz
07-28-14, 05:52 PM
Peripheral Dizfriz,

1)Could you explain what an attunement relationship is , and how it is such a powerful factor in the treatment of ADHD? I have no idea of what a attunment relationship is. Attunment is normally considered to be a process- something you do, not a type of relationship.

Parents often have difficultly understanding their ADHD child. Helping them to understand the disorder and how it affects children and families is what I am talking about. The training helps them better attune to the child's needs and to understand their own reactions. This is what I mean when I say that attunment training is a very powerful tool in working with ADHD kids and their families. Very effective but no magic wand.

Attune: to cause (a person, company, etc.) to have a better understanding of what is needed or wanted by a particular person or group. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/attune

2)And what would be the repercussions on psychoneurobiological development, if unintentional types distress interrefered with the daily attunement relationship/process, especially during early infancy? Lunacie P I don't know that Dizfriz's arthritis will allow him to answer such complex questions. On question #2 Lunacie is quite correct plus you are quite capable of doing your own homework.

That is what the internet and libraries are for. I am not going to spend the hours researching to make sure I am up to date on this then spoon feed you. Typing is painful and I limit it.

So journey forth and research.


Dizfriz

Dizfriz
07-28-14, 05:56 PM
what i mean is that there is a ton of literature besides mate) that also theorize poor self regulation as contributed to early caregiver attachment styles

i feel that does NOT say bad parenting causes adhd

while the literature of poor self regulation does not always specifically call self regulation "adhd" , i think they are talking about the same thing

it seems to be assumed that lack of attunement indicates bad parents, thats incorrect, except in the rare cases of neglect
I don't think Mate or anyone else on this topic is talking about "bad" parenting. I think that perhaps "ineffective parenting " comes closer to what Mate is saying.

Dizfriz

mildadhd
07-28-14, 06:21 PM
I don't think Mate or anyone else on this topic is talking about "bad" parenting. I think that perhaps "ineffective parenting " comes closer to what Mate is saying.

Dizfriz

Dizfriz,

There is no perhaps.

Why don't you just quote what Dr.Mate actually said?

"originate in stresses"

I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors.

You say you read Scattered but you also ignore a lot of information that would help clarify Dr.Mate's position, you use a couple of sentences, and you can't even quote accurately.

I'm very disappointed

Take Care

P MEWE

Dizfriz
07-28-14, 07:30 PM
Diz I don't think Mate or anyone else on this topic is talking about "bad" parenting. I think that perhaps "ineffective parenting " comes closer to what Mate is saying. P: Dizfriz

There is no perhaps.

Why don't you just quote what Dr.Mate actually said?

"originate in stresses"

Quote: I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors. You say you read Scattered but you also ignore a lot of information that would help clarify Dr.Mate's position, you use a couple of sentences, and you can't even quote accurately.

[I'm very disappointed Why, I quoted Mate verbatim including the phrase you singled out? What Mate is clearly saying is disruption in attunment and attachment are the determining factors in causing ADHD. He is saying that genetics plus parenting are the causes of ADHD. Here is what he said in the introduction: I do not think it is a matter of bad genes or bad parenting, but I do believe it is a matter of genes and parenting. Scattered xvii First page of introduction.


You have been denying that Mate thinks parenting is one of the primary causes of ADHD since 2011. For anyone interested here is, more or less, the thread that started this thing out.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104955

I am against blaming the parent unless there is evidence to back it up. That is putting a burden on the parent that is totally unnecessary and unjustified and in my mind, morally wrong at least in this case. Parents of ADHD children don't need this kind of guilt trip but you keep insisting placing the blame on the parent. I don't understand why.

You say I don't clarify Mate's position but it is crystal clear what he believes at least in the book Scattered. From what I can understand, he has not changed that position.

Mate clearly feels that ADHD is caused by genes and parenting. Deny it all you want but this is what he says and I have seen nothing to indicate any other interpretation.


Cheeze! How long will this go on?

Dizfriz

mildadhd
07-28-14, 08:04 PM
Diz P: Why, I quoted Mate verbatim including the phrase you singled out? What Mate is clearly saying is disruption in attunment and attachment are the determining factors in causing ADHD. He is saying that genetics plus parenting are the causes of ADHD. Here is what he said in the introduction: Scattered xvii First page of introduction.


You have been denying that Mate thinks parenting is one of the primary causes of ADHD since 2011. For anyone interested here is, more or less, the thread that started this thing out.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104955

I am against blaming the parent unless there is evidence to back it up. That is putting a burden on the parent that is totally unnecessary and unjustified and in my mind, morally wrong at least in this case. Parents of ADHD children don't need this kind of guilt trip but you keep insisting placing the blame on the parent. I don't understand why.

You say I don't clarify Mate's position but it is crystal clear what he believes at least in the book Scattered. From what I can understand, he has not changed that position.

Mate clearly feels that ADHD is caused by genes and parenting. Deny it all you want but this is what he says and I have seen nothing to indicate any other interpretation.


Cheeze! How long will this go on?

Dizfriz



If you look you avoid the OP topics.

You have been derailing this thread like all the other ones.

You are ignoring the OP questions,

You ignore the link I posted by Dr Schore, which discusses attachment and attunment and right brain development,

and you ignore the Harvard video's.

So I don't know.

How long is this going to go on Dizfriz?



P

mildadhd
07-28-14, 08:21 PM
You ignore complex unconditioned emotional responses originating in the midbrain.

SEEKING system, FEAR system, RAGE system, LUST system, CARE system, GRIEF/PANIC system, PLAY system.

You ignore emotionally hypersensitive temperament.

Can you see a pattern here Dizfriz?

P

mildadhd
07-28-14, 08:29 PM
Dizfriz

How can attunement exist without a primary care-giver?

It's impossible to discuss and understand attunement without including a primary caregiver in the discussion examples.


I think your avoiding the attunment topics because you realized you can't explain attunment without including emotions and a primary care giver.

Topics you have been avoiding for years, and instead discussing them, you derail my threads.

Please note where emotions originate in the Harvard Video's. (midbrain brain stem area)




P

Lunacie
07-28-14, 09:55 PM
Peri, you hijacked Abi's thread on Pseudoscience as Defacement of Reason,
but you complain that people are derailing your threads if they disagree with your opinion.

In Abi's thread you asked "I'm not sure why some members don't want to discuss about the topic."

I would almost bet it's because when we do try to discuss things with you,
you turn on us and attack us and claim that we're derailing your thread
or ignoring the same links and quotes over and over and over.

It's bloody frustrating. :doh:

mildadhd
07-28-14, 10:17 PM
What about this thread Lunacie?

Did you finish reading Dr.Schore's course link in post #3, yet?


P

mildadhd
07-28-14, 10:43 PM
Attention Deficit disorder is usually explained as the result of bad genes by those who "beleive" in it, and as the product of bad parenting by those who don't

The aura of confusion and even acrimony that surrounds public debate about the condition discourages a reasoned discussion of how environment and heredity might mutually affect the neurophysiology of children growing up in stressed families, in a fragmented and highly pressured society and in a culture that seems more and more frenzied as we approach the turn of the millennium.

Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", P. Introduction.


Ironically this is the first paragraph in the introduction, of Scattered.

If I consider the discussions in this thread, it seems Dr.Mate is spot on.




P

mildadhd
07-28-14, 10:57 PM
This is the second paragraph.

ADD involves environment, genes and parenting.

Not bad genes or and bad parenting. Right?

Why is there a parenting section at ADDF, because the topics involve parenting.


I have attention deficit disorder myself, and my three children have also been diagnosed with ADD.

I do not think it is a matter of bad genes or bad parenting, but I do believe it is a matter of genes and parenting.

Neuroscience has established that the human brain is not programmed by biological heredity alone, that its circuits are shaped by what happens after the infant enters the world, and even while it is in uterus.

The emotional states of the parents and how they live their lives have a major impact on the formation of their children's brains, though parents cannot often know or control such subtle unconscious influences.

The good news is that major changes in the circuits of the brain can occur in the child and even in the adult it the conditions necessary for positive development are created.


Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", Introduction

mildadhd
07-28-14, 11:05 PM
Third paragraph from the introduction.

(I've posted all these paragraphs before)


Quick to arise whenever the environment is mentioned is the question of blame.

"You mean it's the parents' fault?" people immediately ask.

It is a simplistic notion that if something is wrong, someone has to be at fault.

It would not help parents of children with ADD, besieged on all sides by the incomprehending judgments and criticality of friends, family, neighbors, teachers and even strangers in the street, to have yet one more finger pointed at them.

This book does not do so.


Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", p Introduction.


i!i

mildadhd
07-28-14, 11:17 PM
Fifth paragraph from the introduction.

...As parents who make every every effort we can to raise our children in loving security, we do not need to feel more guilt than we already do.

We need less guilt and more awareness of how the quality of the parent-child relationship can be used to promote our children's emotional and cognitive development.

Scattered is written to encourage such awareness


Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, p Introduction.

mildadhd
07-28-14, 11:23 PM
Sixth paragraph from introduction.

The book is written also with two other sets of readers in mind.

My hope is that adults with attention deficit disorder will find insights here that will help them gain a deeper understanding of themselves and of the path they could take toward their own healing.

Scattered is meant also to give health professionals with ADD clients and teachers working with ADD students a comprehensive view of a much misunderstood condition.

Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, Introduction

mildadhd
07-28-14, 11:32 PM
The analysis of ADD given in this book attempts to synthesize the findings of modern neuroscientific research, developmental psychology, family systems theory, genetics and medical science. (*1)

These are combined with an interpretation of social and cultural trends, as well with my own personal experiences as an adult with ADD, as a parent and as a physician.

To avoid giving the book and academic slant, references are given in the notes at the end, along with further comments intended for the professional and reader and for lay readers seeking source information.


Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered, Introduction


i!i

mildadhd
07-28-14, 11:47 PM
I believe that ADD can be better understood if we examine people's lives, not only bits of DNA.

Heredity does make an important contribution, but far less than usually assumed.

At the same time, it would serve no purpose to set up the false opposition of environment to genetic inheritance.

No split exists in nature, or in the mind of any serious scientist.

If in this book I emphasize environment, I do so to focus attention on an area that most books on the subject neglect and none explore in nearly enough detail.

Such neglect frequently leads to crippling deficiencies in what people are offered by way of treatment.

Gabor Mate M.D., Scattered , P25.




i!i i!i

mildadhd
07-29-14, 01:41 AM
SMALLER, LESS ACTIVE, LESS DEVELOPED BRAIN REGIONS


3-10% reduced regional volumes in these 5 regions:

 Orbital-Prefrontal Cortex (primarily right side)

 Genetics contributes to under-development of this region while acquired ADHD may be related to smaller inferior dorsolateral frontal region

 Basal Ganglia (mainly striatum & globus pallidus)

 Cerebellum (central vermis area, more on right side)

 Anterior cingulate cortex (mostly shows under-activity)

 Corpus callosum – forward aspect or splenium

 Size of this network is correlated with degree of ADHD symptoms, particularly inhibition

 No gender differences

 2-3 year lag in brain development but achieving typical brain volumes by age 16

 Results are not due to taking stimulant medication

http://www.caddac.ca/cms/CADDAC_pdf/...HD_Barkley.pdf



Why do people with ADHD have a less developed the orbito frontal cortex, on the right side?


(Secure Attachment and Right Brain Development (http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course063.php) by Allan N. Schore, Ph.D.)


i!i

mildadhd
07-29-14, 03:09 AM
I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors.

-Dr.Mate



"..ADD originates in stresses.." (Dr.Mate)

ver·ba·tim

in exactly the same words as were used originally.

Dizfriz and Lunacie

You don't always quote Dr. Mate "in exactly the same words as were used originally".

Its clear that Dr.Mate says "..ADD originates in stresses.."

Could Dizfriz and Lunacie, please stop derailing my threads on this topic.

There is so much more I want to discuss in regards to treatment.




P

Dizfriz
07-29-14, 09:24 AM
Could Dizfriz and Lunacie, please stop derailing my threads on this topic.

I hate to tell you this but you derailed your own thread.




Background: The issue of "bad parenting" had been brought up several times in the thread and I wanted to make sure that it was clear that Mate was not talking about bad parenting.

Here is the exchange:

Diz I don't think Mate or anyone else on this topic is talking about "bad" parenting. I think that perhaps "ineffective parenting " comes closer to what Mate is saying. I was actually supporting Mate here explaining that I felt that Mate was not saying "bad parenting" but ineffective parenting. I could have added "due to stress" but did not feel it was part of the point I was trying to make.

Here then is what you posted in response:

Peripheral

There is no perhaps.

Why don't you just quote what Dr.Mate actually said?

"originate in stresses"

Quote: I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors. You say you read Scattered but you also ignore a lot of information that would help clarify Dr.Mate's position, you use a couple of sentences, and you can't even quote accurately.

I'm very disappointed I have no idea where this came from and I have to admit I lost patience.

I have told you a *many* times that I agree with Mate on many of the things he is saying but not his ideas on what causes ADHD. I have told you, again *many* times, that I felt this was saying (according to Mate and yourself)that parenting in terms of attunment and attachment was a major cause of ADHD and that this was clearly placing the blame on the parents. I can see no other way to interpret this.

I have also told you *many* times that as long as you stayed away from the idea that attunment and attachment were primary causes (along with genetics) of ADHD, I had no problem with your postings (not necessarily agreement though).

I have also told you *many* times that when you posted Mates ideas on attunment and attachment causing ADHD, I was going to strongly challenge you.

You are free to post Mate's ideas on what causes ADHD as much as you wish, it is your right as long as the moderators agree but I feel Mates's ideas in light of present day knowledge are harmful and I will act accordingly.

Dizfriz

Lunacie
07-29-14, 09:59 AM
Having a different opinion is not "derailing a thread." It's part of a normal discussion.

Posting quote after quote with no personal perspective on them is not part of a normal discussion.

Random House Webster's College Dictionary

dis•cus•siondɪˈskʌʃ ən(n.)

an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc.; informal debate.

mildadhd
07-29-14, 10:10 AM
Dizfriz,

Please quote word for word.

Please don't change Dr.Mate's words.

Your simply not saying the same thing as Dr.Mate.


P

mildadhd
07-29-14, 10:22 AM
I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors.

Dizfriz

In the quote above, what does Dr.Mate say, "..cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD".

(word for word please)

P

Dizfriz
07-29-14, 10:23 AM
' Dizfriz,

Please quote word for word.

Please don't change Dr.Mate's words.

Your simply not saying the same thing as Dr.Mate.

Here are the two Mate quotes I posted. Where did I misquote?



I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors. I do not think it is a matter of bad genes or bad parenting, but I do believe it is a matter of genes and parenting
Dizfriz

Dizfriz
07-29-14, 10:35 AM
Peripheral Quote: I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors.

What does Dr.Mate say in the quote above? [/quote]

Simple enough and something I have explained *many* times.


Mate believes that stresses in life affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the child. These emotional interactions are primarily involved with attachment and attunment. It is these disruptions of effective attachment and attunment (mothering) along with genetics that he feels are the causes of ADHD.

Dizfriz

mildadhd
07-29-14, 10:46 AM
Simple enough and something I have explained *many* times.


Mate believes that stresses in life affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the child. These emotional interactions are primarily involved with attachment and attunment. It is these disruptions of effective attachment and attunment (mothering) along with genetics that he feels are the causes of ADHD.

Dizfriz


That's not word for word, that is your opinion.


I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors. (Dr.Mate)


Dr.Mate says, " I believe that ADD originates in the stresses that affect the mothering parents emotional interactions with the infant".





P

Lunacie
07-29-14, 10:49 AM
Peripheral Quote: I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors.

What does Dr.Mate say in the quote above?

Simple enough and something I have explained *many* times.


Mate believes that stresses in life affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the child. These emotional interactions are primarily involved with attachment and attunment. It is these disruptions of effective attachment and attunment (mothering) along with genetics that he feels are the causes of ADHD.

Dizfriz[/QUOTE]

Right. I don't believe either of us has misquoted Dr. Mate.
It comes down to whether we agree with his opinion or not.
I just want to see some actual evidence to back up this opinion.

mildadhd
07-29-14, 11:09 AM
It is really very simple.

If you say a person said something, quote word for word, what the person said.

If it is not word for word, it is not what the person said.

P

Dizfriz
07-29-14, 11:38 AM
That's not word for word, that is your opinion.
You didn't ask for word for word. Here is what you asked:


Peripheral I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors.

What does Dr.Mate say in the quote above? I responding to what I thought Mate was saying.


Dr.Mate says, " I believe that ADD originates in the stresses that affect the mothering parents emotional interactions with the infant".
I know. He then goes on to say that these stresses "affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD."

According to Mate it is these emotional interactions that cause ADHD, not the stresses. He feels that the affected mothering interactions stem from the stresses but does not present those stress as causing ADHD, just the affected interactions.

I am probably not going to spend any more time on this except to say that I will strongly challenge any attempt to use Mate's ideas on what causes ADHD to place blame on the parent. It was perhaps an explorable idea in 1999 but not now and there has been no support for his ideas on this.

Dizfriz

mildadhd
07-29-14, 01:49 PM
I know. He then goes on to say that these stresses "affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD."

According to Mate it is these emotional interactions that cause ADHD, not the stresses. He feels that the affected mothering interactions stem from the stresses but does not present those stress as causing ADHD, just the affected interactions.

I am probably not going to spend any more time on this except to say that I will strongly challenge any attempt to use Mate's ideas on what causes ADHD to place blame on the parent. It was perhaps an explorable idea in 1999 but not now and there has been no support for his ideas on this.

Dizfriz


OK You have stated your opinion.

Considering all the information in the book Scattered, I strongly disagree.

(Examples why, upon request.)

In this thread I was consciously trying really hard to avoid this same old disagreement.

Who brought up these two quotes that we disagree about in so many threads, and why where they brought up?

This thread is about, "What is attachment and attunement?" (In regards to treatment for ADHD)


P

mildadhd
07-29-14, 02:19 PM
To whom it may concern.

"..emotional transactions between mother and infant shape developing right brain circuits." (Dr.Schore)

Dr.Mate didn't make this stuff up. (See course Learning Objectives and link below).

In my opinion, Dr.Mate is saying distress interferes with the relationship between sensitive infant and caregiver.

Side Note: In my opinion, Dr. Mate also discusses more than one causation factor, including heredity, in Scattered. (ADHD has more than one cause)

LEARNING OBJECTIVES

This is an intermediate to advanced level course. After completing this course, mental health professionals will be able to:

-List and discuss four critical mechanisms in attachment transactions.

-Describe how emotional transactions between mother and infant shape developing right brain circuits.

-Explain how the right brain stores internal working memory of attachment in implicit/procedural memory.

-Describe how and why the orbitofrontal cortex acts as a control system of attachment.

-Discuss how right brain circuits are necessary for optimal social-emotional functioning across the life span.


Secure Attachment and Right Brain Development (http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course063.php)

by Allan N. Schore, Ph.D.

Dizfriz
07-29-14, 02:42 PM
Who brought up these two quotes that we disagree about in so many threads, and why where they brought up?

Actually it was you that brought the Mate issue up when you posted this quote from Mate:

THE AREAS OF THE CORTEX responsible for attention and self-regulation develop in response to the emotional interaction with the person whom we may call the mothering figure.

Usually this is the birth mother, but it may be another person, male or female, depending on circumstances.

Although for the sake of convenience, I will at times refer to this person only as the mother, the word should always be understood to refer to whoever the primary nurturing figure may be--father, mother, or grandparent, foster parent or adoptive parent of either gender... Lunacie responded to the Mate quote with this:

A lack of parent/child attunement has not been shown to be a factor in ADHD. It is not an attunement disorder. It could be comorbid along with ADHD. Any parent can be taught how to better parent a child with ADHD. And you came back with Lunacie,

Did I say ADHD was an attunement disorder?

Who said ADHD was an attunement disorder?

If I did in the past, I would like to clarify, can you quote who said, ADHD was an attunement disorder? That is when I got into it to respond to these questions.

As I said in the past and am saying now, when you bring up and advocate for Mates ideas on what causes ADHD, I am going to respond. If you don't want for this to happen then quit doing it. Simple enough.


Dizfriz

mctavish23
07-29-14, 02:59 PM
Based on the mainstream, peer reviewed, accepted (best) standard of evidence based

practice research, supporting the Clinical Guidelines for the Diagnosis & Treatment of

ADHD today, my professional opinion is that ADHD does not originate in "stresses" or

"stressors; (which is in agreement with those data)."

tc

Robert

mildadhd
07-29-14, 03:02 PM
Dizfriz,

How would you present this information?

I understand you are trying to protect the mothers.

I agree with your position on protecting the mothers.

What ever our differences, I really hate this argument as much as I think you do.

What would say differently?

What could I say differently?




P

Lunacie
07-29-14, 03:06 PM
OK You have stated your opinion.

Considering all the information in the book Scattered, I strongly disagree.

(Examples why, upon request.)

In this thread I was consciously trying really hard to avoid this same old disagreement.

Who brought up these two quotes that we disagree about in so many threads, and why where they brought up?

This thread is about, "What is attachment and attunement?" (In regards to treatment for ADHD)


P

That's what a discussion is ... sharing our personal opinions, hopefully backed up by some evidence.

Yes, there can be disagreement over the validity of those opinions. That's part of the dictionary definition of "discussion."


Your opinion seems to be that lack of parent/child attachment/attunement is part of the cause of ADHD.

Dizfriz and I share the opinion that lack of parent/child attachment/attunement can exacerbate the symptoms of ADHD, but does not actually cause it.

Unfortunately we don't seem to be able to discuss these differences without someone complaining about thread derailment or personal attacks.

Wish I could think of a solution to that.

mildadhd
07-29-14, 03:11 PM
Actually it was you that brought the Mate issue up when you posted this quote from Mate:

Lunacie responded to the Mate quote with this:

And you came back with That is when I got into it to respond to these questions.

As I said in the past and am saying now, when you bring up and advocate for Mates ideas on what causes ADHD, I am going to respond. If you don't want for this to happen then quit doing it. Simple enough.


Dizfriz

Dizfriz,

Are you saying now I can't post anything by Dr.Mate?

I meant that quote by Dr.Mate, in reference to Dr.Schore's work.

I also meant to it to clairify that the "mothering figure" could be of either gender, etc.

THE AREAS OF THE CORTEX responsible for attention and self-regulation develop in response to the emotional interaction with the person whom we may call the mothering figure... (Dr.Mate)

I learned about Dr.Schore, Dr. Siegel, Dr.Neufeld and others from Dr.Mate's notes from Scattered.

Some of Dr.Barkley work is also discussed as well as many other top researchers on these subjects.

What problem do you have with that quote, by Dr.Mate?

If you disagree with Dr.Mate about that quote, then you are also disagreeing with Dr.Schore.



P

Dizfriz
07-29-14, 03:28 PM
Dizfriz,

Are you saying now I can't post anything by Dr.Mate?

Did you bother to read what I wrote?

You have every right to quote anything you wish as long as the staff agrees.

I also have the right to challenge those quotes as long as staff agrees.

It is that simple.

Dizfriz

mildadhd
07-29-14, 03:42 PM
Did you bother to read what I wrote?

You have every right to quote anything you wish as long as the staff agrees.

I also have the right to challenge those quotes as long as staff agrees.

It is that simple.

Dizfriz

Dizfriz,

Do you challenge what Dr.Schore says about secure attachment and right brain development, that is what I was discussing. (in regards to attachment and attunement)

Dr.Mate is referring to Dr.Schore's work. ( in the post I quoted)(you have a copy of Scattered, check the notes)

I would have thought that you would be interested in early right brain development, since the right orbitofrontal cortex is slightly underdeveloped in people with ADHD? (See Post #5 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1667457&postcount=5))



LEARNING OBJECTIVES

This is an intermediate to advanced level course. After completing this course, mental health professionals will be able to:

-List and discuss four critical mechanisms in attachment transactions.

-Describe how emotional transactions between mother and infant shape developing right brain circuits.

-Explain how the right brain stores internal working memory of attachment in implicit/procedural memory.

-Describe how and why the orbitofrontal cortex acts as a control system of attachment.

-Discuss how right brain circuits are necessary for optimal social-emotional functioning across the life span.

Secure Attachment and Right Brain Development (http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course063.php)


by Allan N. Schore, Ph.D.





P

immago
07-29-14, 04:16 PM
...the right orbitofrontal cortex is slightly underdeveloped in people with ADHD...

Perhaps, but why? And does this correlation infer causation? Perhaps its underdevelopment is caused by its underuse, or other factors, due to ADHD.

Lunacie
07-29-14, 04:32 PM
Dizfriz,

Do you challenge what Dr.Schore says about secure attachment and right brain development, that is what I was discussing. (in regards to attachment and attunement)

Dr.Mate is referring to Dr.Schore's work. ( in the post I quoted)(you have a copy of Scattered, check the notes)

I would have thought that you would be interested in early right brain development, since the right orbitofrontal cortex is slightly underdeveloped in people with ADHD? (See Post #5 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1667457&postcount=5))




P

Wow, that is a lot of information to read - I might read more of it a bit at a time.


Perhaps, but why? And does this correlation infer causation? Perhaps its underdevelopment is caused by its underuse, or other factors, due to ADHD.

Those are very good questions. From my initial skimming of the link in Peri's post above,
I don't see any evidence of causation of ADHD, but lots to think about in whether parenting can minimize or worsen the symptoms of ADHD.

mildadhd
07-29-14, 06:29 PM
Lunacie

Could you post a short list of the all the known causes of ADHD?

(My rule of thumb, there is at least more than one.)

P

Lunacie
07-29-14, 06:34 PM
Lunacie

Could you post a short list of the all the known causes of ADHD?

(My rule of thumb, there is at least more than one.)

P

If you have evidence (not just opinions) of anything besides genetics, please share your own list.

eclectic beagle
07-29-14, 06:42 PM
I don't see any evidence of causation of ADHD, but lots to think about in whether parenting can minimize or worsen the symptoms of ADHD.

Yep, it's also worth exploring whether or not parenting can worsen ADHD's common comorbids, anxiety and depression. Think Thomas Brown also mentions that comorbids function differently together than they do apart. While this is pure speculation, it's possible certain parenting styles worsen ADHD comorbids, which then in turn affect how ADHD functions. There could also be subsequent interplay between the comorbids, causing them to increase in severity over long stretches of time.

mildadhd
07-29-14, 06:52 PM
Perhaps, but why? And does this correlation infer causation? Perhaps its underdevelopment is caused by its underuse, or other factors, due to ADHD.

Thanks,

I was thinking primarily..

Overaroused midbrain (emotion/SEEKING system) subcortex and Underaroused prefrontal (cognitive/self regulation) neocortex

Fight, Freeze or Flight (autonomic nervous system)

Emotions Primal(autonomic nervous system)

May be mostly hereditary.(born with a more sensitive temperament)

May be mostly environmental.(almost always accidental unintentional adoption/anxiety/depression, like, distress)

But it must be a combination of both (or more) to some degree.

Specifics depend on individual circumstances.




Opinion?


P

Dizfriz
07-29-14, 07:20 PM
Yep, it's also worth exploring whether or not parenting can worsen ADHD's common comorbids, anxiety and depression. Think Thomas Brown also mentions that comorbids function differently together than they do apart. While this is pure speculation, it's possible certain parenting styles worsen ADHD comorbids, which then in turn affect how ADHD functions. There could also be subsequent interplay between the comorbids, causing them to increase in severity over long stretches of time.
I haven't thought of it in that way all that much but I tend to agree that comorbids act together in a somewhat different way than when they present by themselves. As you mentioned, I suspect the interplay will prove to be important. I have seen enough of this that it makes good sense to me.

We might be looking at emergent phenomena where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Interesting point. Thanks for bringing it up. I need to do some thinking on it.

Dizfriz

daveddd
07-29-14, 07:33 PM
dizfriz

honest question, I'm not bound to barkley or mates view on poor self regulation (i only say that instead of adhd because if i ruled out research on self regulation because they haven't adapts barkleys view of that being adhd, id miss out on a ton of great research )

it seems no one has proven anything definitively

i think most know its a symptom group arising from multiple causes


we know an extreme issue with social attunment is present in most (not all) cases of adhd

barkleys descriptors of adult adhd include some serious issues

what use to be clearly delineated as poor attachment types (mainly anxious and avoid ant) are now excepted as adhd behaviors




that being said

do you have something specific in mind, when you mention pure adhd?, one in a child where everything goes right?

honest question

Lunacie
07-29-14, 07:38 PM
I was just thinking outside Peri's usual parameters of early childhood to the impact when
the parent doesn't understand and support the school child, the pre-teen, the teenager.

Of course I don't remember much from my pre-school years, but I know the awful affect
of having adults and older sibling blame me for my symptoms.

Dizfriz
07-29-14, 08:09 PM
dizfriz


do you have something specific in mind, when you mention pure adhd?, one in a child where everything goes right?

honest question

I am not sure I use the term "pure ADHD". I might have at some time but it is not one of the phrases I normally use. The only thing I can think of right now is a case of classic combined symptoms with no comorbids.

If you can find an example, I would be happy to discuss.

Dizfriz

daveddd
07-29-14, 08:30 PM
I am not sure I use the term "pure ADHD". I might have at some time but it is not one of the phrases I normally use. The only thing I can think of right now is a case of classic combined symptoms with no comorbids.

If you can find an example, I would be happy to discuss.

Dizfriz

i didn't mean you used the term

i just meant adhd , completely by itself , not made worse by attunement failure or alienation, just the inborn syndrome in adults

the line has become blurry on whats comorbid and whats adhd

SB_UK
07-30-14, 03:17 AM
we know an extreme issue with social attunment is present in most (not all) cases of adhd

barkleys descriptors of adult adhd include some serious issues

what use to be clearly delineated as poor attachment types (mainly anxious and avoid ant) are now excepted as adhd behaviorsThat's interesting.

I avoid situations involving aggression because nothing is ever resolved through 'warfare'.

In fact - the tendency to lose one's temper isn't useful - is the sort of thing we're trying to escape also.

Would anything frustrate me ? Words which don't mean anything.

Being completely honest - we need somebody in research to summarise what we know about ADHD pretty much for sure.

I'm only convinced that all we'd agree on it that ADDers get no reward in certain settings (are bored) ie school,work and so need to supplement the lack of reward with stimulants to comply (without meds leading to a downwards spiral into poverty) or self-medication leading invariably to oblivion.
When phrased that way - isn't it a bit dumb to look for 50 broken genes to explain the condition ?
Really - all you need to do is see what is boring and what is not to the ADDer.
The other bit of information on ADDer of 3 year dev delay might just mean that ADDers aren't interested because their heads are 3 years behind others ... ... maybe ??

Generally - take things to that level ie shout/fight and you won't be able to o the right thing.

It's funny how that may be failure in attachment/attunement because it feels (ie I'm describing a need to do the right thing) - species-level attachment/attunement.

-*-

If failure in social attachment/attunement means to this current social structure (rooten, vicious, hierarchical) - then I agree.
We can't comply with a society which is wrong - and so failure in social attachment/attunement ie being a good little wage slave and living and dying in prison living one's life for some variation of a rentier parasitic capitalist
- then that's certainly true.

It all depends on what failure in social attachment/attunement means - because I'm describing failure of hierarchical social attachment/attunement and success in proper social (flat structure) attachment/attunement.

Or even more simply - the ADDer represents an individual with social and not selfish reward / motivation system.

So - selfish reward system - a world view in which there's a human hierarchy - King - Lords - serfs
- and in which the goal is to climb the ladder and serve those above.

The social reward system - the ability to see that all of that is nonsense.
All people are equal.
There's no room for a human hierarchy.

You only get 1 life and then you're dead.

And currently - the people who support that pyramid are killing the world for the rest - by supporting the essentially false constructs of money, law - which simply support species destruction.

There's nothing to be admired about people with more money than you - they - and all of the people trying to climb the ladder (many poor) are the problem.

The problem is that we're observing a battle between nonADDer hierarchical/violent/materialist and ADDer flat structure reward/motivation system.

We can see it in the (somewhat confused these days) battle between the original right wing (hierarchical) and flat structure supportive left wing.

Somewhat confused - though - as they're both variants of (in this global economic system) of the right.

You need to eliminate money/law for OUR reward system to come through - it's impossible to access our reward system in a hierarchical species-level social system.

SB_UK
07-30-14, 03:46 AM
So - from watching the TV over the last few days.

Pretty much all of the programs I've watched refer to people not being able to follow their dreams because of money.

All couples want is an open house in the sun with a dog and a veggie garden.

But you can't have that because it requires money.

So - what we have is the reward of money versus what's personally rewarding ie the selfish vs social reward system fighting it out.

These 2 mechanisms infect the mind - and the goal is to adopt the ADDer reward mechanism - with the ADDer having the disadvantage in being unable to get satisfaction from the external reward (money) reward system
- so there's no gold star to ADDer
- ADDers can't obtain 'false' reward from beating another person


- and so fall off current society - because who can stick with a system which invokes zero reward
- each and every act requires effort because you're not really interested.

-*-

Well if that's all that's ADD - then define how we'd be happy ?
Well the above - ie house in the sun
- with a voluntaryist structure to work ie to be free to work wherever our mind finds satisfaction - this'd be in many of the places we work currently except obviously no legal or money sectors
- and on (naturally) a completely voluntary [voluntaryism] basis.

So we'd find that all of the workplaces which'd be retained 'd be unsurprisingly all of those tasks which people do in their spare time.

Create art, look after animals, program, build, garden, exercise etc etc

All people would then be happy.
No distress.
No distress-borne diseases (all diseases of Western living).
Job done.

-*-

Just dismantle human hierarchy
- and this is the key bit
- by realising that human beings have 2 reward systems - and that a personal enquiry and application of morality helps in destroying the human hierarchical reward system and puts in place the reward system which ADDers are predisposed to.

-*-

Too hard - summarise in 1 senstence.

You can derive reward from doing something in which you gain in context (social reward) of others or without regard (selfish reward) to others ... if you identify behaviours compatible with social reward then you begin a transition to eliminating the attraction towards selfish reward (money,power)
- where nonADDers can go both ways and ADDers are predisposed to social reward.
It's failure to obtain social reward and forcing ADDers to perform tasks with no intrinsic reward from which the problems (self-medication) occur.

SB_UK
07-30-14, 03:53 AM
The ADDer can't find reward in hierarchical materialistic world of today involving money/power - because people have the wrong motivation.

I'm fairly sure that once people adopt the right motivation ie a positive mental attitude towards helping all other people - that ADDers will THEN feel reward from doing.
IE it's nice (even stated on TV yesterday on a random program) ie feels good (stated by a lawyer!)
- to actually help people as opposed to win a case based on some esoteric archaic point of law.

So -I'm trying to describe a form of transmission of reward when people adopting the social reward system collaborate.

IE there's actual reward / motivation when one feels another person's happiness at one's efforts.

So - that'd be the recipe for a species level connection - and would represent the formation proper - at last
- of man as properly human.

As forever mentioned - we're not human until individual behave consistently with the wellbeing of all other people
- what's the point in having a mind if all we do is hide and exploit the logical loopholes (lack of knowledge) ie the tax havens of mind - for personal gain at the expense of the species.

SB_UK
07-30-14, 04:00 AM
So - yeah - freedom is simply the freedom to act in line with personal reward ie to navigate your own course through life free from external violent compulsion (ie the Queen with a whip riding on the back of some police officer)

- with the massive proviso that in order to be free - one has to develop a mind (which takes a while) .... ... and once there (objectivity gained) - you're good to go.

The mind is a mind which has a rational understanding of what is right and what is wrong.

Therein lies the major flaw in Western schooling -as what is right/wrong is not important and all information is conveyed with money in mind (working)
- where money is fundamentally immoral

ie education teaches the ascent of the primitive reward system resulting in people being delivered off the education conveyor belt as money addicts.

That's really all.

The point of education (whether formal or not) is to know what is right and what is wrong.
Evidence (standard science) is required to influence the mind - as it's impossible to know what is right and what is wrong without thinking/experimenting/observing etc etc

SB_UK
07-30-14, 04:08 AM
What's the slightly irritating thing about my argument ?
Anybody can work it out just by watching people.

By introducing fancy genetic and psych. terms - people lose personal belief in themselves - devolve decisions to authority
- and before you know it - people are reduced to the point where they only feel as though the decisions they make relate to consumerism (which kills them/planet) of which chocolate bars to over-consume, which alcohol to over-consume, which holiday destination to take a petrol guzzling plane to

- ie TV advertising gives people choices
- but that's not the sort of choice which we need to be presented by for freedom.

What we need (for freedom) is the ability to use our mind on EVERY aspect of living - and to elect for a personally (within species context) course of action.

Your enemy is the technical language used by expertise to hide the fact that they know NOTHING.

I am unable to find any information which cannot be conveyed simply.

Can't explain it - don't understand it.

SB_UK
07-30-14, 04:10 AM
Primitivie reward system (original sin)
-> through ->
Rational enquiry into morality
-> into ->
Social reward system (freedom!!)

Go live.
Go die and go to heaven (fundamental substrate).

Phenomenological reality is simply an emergent evolutionary progression on fundametal substrate.

The goal is to go home (moksha) prior to going home proper <- the human metamorphic cycle.

{0}

The Krishna/Christ transition of East meets West balance - resulting in 1 social structure for the world.

Dizfriz
07-30-14, 10:12 AM
i didn't mean you used the term

i just meant adhd , completely by itself , not made worse by attunement failure or alienation, just the inborn syndrome in adults

the line has become blurry on whats comorbid and whats adhd
You will find this often to be the case with comorbid conditions.

Keep in mind that comorbid relationships of this type are mostly correlational. In other words, a person with condition A will be more likely to also exhibit symptoms of condition B. No common cause is implied by the statistics but common causes are likely and that is what research on this is focused on.

Dizfriz

daveddd
07-30-14, 10:28 AM
That sounds right

I know your not a huge Thomas brown fan. But he considers ADHD (EF model of course, not inattention ) as a foundational disorder to several disorders.

Dizfriz
07-30-14, 11:07 AM
That sounds right

I know your not a huge Thomas brown fan. But he considers ADHD (EF model of course, not inattention ) as a foundational disorder to several disorders.
Mainly I have not read Brown so can't comment on him.

Since I retired, I do not get into the heaver stuff as much. Too much else to to do.


Dizfriz

mctavish23
07-30-14, 11:39 AM
For the Record,

When I'm referring to "the accepted (best) standard of peer reviewed, evidence based,

current research," that is NOT exclusive to Russell Barkley,PhD. However, it IS those

data which constitute the current basis for the published Clinical Guidelines for the

Diagnosis and Treatment of ADHD. Think about the significance of that in light of the

question posed here.

Hope that helps some.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

eclectic beagle
07-30-14, 05:00 PM
I haven't thought of it in that way all that much but I tend to agree that comorbids act together in a somewhat different way than when they present by themselves. As you mentioned, I suspect the interplay will prove to be important. I have seen enough of this that it makes good sense to me.

We might be looking at emergent phenomena where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Interesting point. Thanks for bringing it up. I need to do some thinking on it.

Dizfriz

Yeah, comorbids affecting each other has made intuitive sense to me for years, and as dave mentioned it seems hard to disentangle symptoms of a comorbid and another disorder if both have similiar impairments. Well, to me anyway, I'm not even close to being an experienced clinician.

Dizfriz
07-30-14, 05:15 PM
Yeah, comorbids affecting each other has made intuitive sense to me for years, and as dave mentioned it seems hard to disentangle symptoms of a comorbid and another disorder if both have similiar impairments. Well, to me anyway, I'm not even close to being an experienced clinician.
Some can be a little easier than others (not always though), for example Tourette's and ADHD. Other times it can be quite difficult, especially with children and adolescents, to separate (again as examples) anxiety or depression comorbid with ADHD. Are they comorbid issues or manifestations of a single diagnosis?

Dizfriz

mctavish23
07-30-14, 05:32 PM
I've always (professionally) looked at the combination of FAMILY HISTORY (for both

ADHD, as well as the related RISK FACTORS for undiagnosed/untreated ADHD), in addition

to the INDIVIDUAL'S display of DEVELOPMENTALLY INAPPROPRIATE IMPAIRMENTS from an early

age, when compared with same age/same gender (non-ADHD) peers, as the guiding lights in

trying to determine the presence of the disorder. It can be done if you know what to look for and why.

It's all in the research if you're willing to look hard enough.

tc

Robert

Dizfriz
07-30-14, 06:34 PM
And to add on to what Robert said (and he has it dead on), I cannot overemphasize how important the family and individual history is to a good assessment and diagnosis.

Really, for many disorders, it is the key to differential diagnosis. This is why I am not fond of self diagnosis or peer diagnosis.

It is this "pattern" of history and symptoms that leads a clinician to a good diagnosis and you cannot do this for yourself or your friends.

About the only way get the ability to do differential diagnosis is through training and experience. There are no short cuts that I know of.

Dizfriz

daveddd
07-30-14, 06:56 PM
I've always (professionally) looked at the combination of FAMILY HISTORY (for both

ADHD, as well as the related RISK FACTORS for undiagnosed/untreated ADHD), in addition

to the INDIVIDUAL'S display of DEVELOPMENTALLY INAPPROPRIATE IMPAIRMENTS from an early

age, when compared with same age/same gender (non-ADHD) peers, as the guiding lights in

trying to determine the presence of the disorder. It can be done if you know what to look for and why.

It's all in the research if you're willing to look hard enough.

tc

Robert

like i mentioned to dizfriz earlier, your probably more an exception than the rule

its common nowadays to go to 5 doctors and get 5 different axis one diagnosis

most doctors know little to nothing about poor emotional regulation(which is probably the most disabling diagnosis)

it also seems common to "diagnosis hunt" , especially with adhd, keep going to doctors until you get one to agree with you self diagnosis

Lunacie
07-30-14, 08:01 PM
like i mentioned to dizfriz earlier, your probably more an exception than the rule

its common nowadays to go to 5 doctors and get 5 different axis one diagnosis

most doctors know little to nothing about poor emotional regulation(which is probably the most disabling diagnosis)

it also seems common to "diagnosis hunt" , especially with adhd, keep going to doctors until you get one to agree with you self diagnosis

My personal experience: was dx with depression when I was 25.

But I knew there was more going on that just depression.

At 55 a therapist agreed there was also anxiety and ADHD.

Saw a psych at 60 who agreed with anxiety and treated me for both anxiety and depression

but poo-poohed the idea of ADHD, despite a strong family history and didn't even ask about my personal history.

I didn't push it as I had found that Omega 3 was helpful. I just wanted to treat the anxiety, one thing at a time.

I wasn't trying to get a doctor to agree with my self-diagnosis.
In fact, I also wonder if I might be on the autism spectrum instead,
or in addition to the rest of it.

mildadhd
07-30-14, 08:13 PM
McTavish,

In your opinion, what is attunement?

P

daveddd
07-30-14, 08:16 PM
My personal experience: was dx with depression when I was 25.

But I knew there was more going on that just depression.

At 55 a therapist agreed there was also anxiety and ADHD.

Saw a psych at 60 who agreed with anxiety and treated me for both anxiety and depression

but poo-poohed the idea of ADHD, despite a strong family history and didn't even ask about my personal history.

I didn't push it as I had found that Omega 3 was helpful. I just wanted to treat the anxiety, one thing at a time.

I wasn't trying to get a doctor to agree with my self-diagnosis.
In fact, I also wonder if I might be on the autism spectrum instead,
or in addition to the rest of it.

aspergers and adhd are on the same spectrum

one is under controlled emotional regulation (adhd) and the other over controlled emotional regulation (aspergers)

I've cycled between the two in my lifetime

mildadhd
07-30-14, 08:19 PM
Lunacie,

List

-Traumatic Brain Injury (environment)

-premature (?)
-low birth weight (?)

-lead exposure (epigenetic)
-alcohol exposure (epigenetic)
-unintentional adoption, anxiety, depression, type distress exposure (epigenetic)
-cigarette exposure(epigenetic)

P

mildadhd
07-30-14, 08:26 PM
Lunacie,

In your opinion, what is attunement?

P

Lunacie
07-30-14, 08:32 PM
Peri, as you gave no link to that quote, I can only assume it's from Dr. Mate.

I've seen research that strongly suggests a link between lead exposure and ADHD.

The rest I have only seen supposition, no replicable research.

If you have any links to such research, please share them.

Lunacie
07-30-14, 08:45 PM
Lunacie,

In your opinion, what is attunement?

P

I would say that in a relationship, attunement means being aware of, and responsive to, the other person's feelings or attitude.

Again, I think a deficit in that relationship can make the symptoms of ADHD worse, but cannot actually be the cause of ADHD.

mildadhd
07-30-14, 08:53 PM
I would say that in a relationship, attunement means being aware of, and responsive to, the other person's feelings or attitude.

Again, I think a deficit in that relationship can make the symptoms of ADHD worse, but cannot actually be the cause of ADHD.

Thanks

How do you define what could actually be the cause of ADHD? (biologically)

I understand there are common endophenotypes pretty much proving that ADHD is real.

But endophenotypes may or may not be directly related to causations.

I understand that peers agree that genes are involved and ADHD is exists.

But I don't see any biological evidence that genes are the primary cause of ADHD?

Do you know of any?

Opinion?

Lunacie
07-30-14, 09:05 PM
Thanks

How do you define what could actually be the cause of ADHD? (biologically)

I understand there are common endophenotypes pretty much proving that ADHD is real.

But endophenotypes may or may not be directly related to causations.

I understand that peers agree that genes are involved and ADHD is exists.

But I don't see any biological evidence that genes are the primary cause of ADHD?

Do you know of any?

Opinion?

You seem to keep ignoring questions that are asked of you while asking others for answers.

You answer my request for links - unless you don't have any - and then I'll try to answer your question.

mctavish23
07-30-14, 09:29 PM
Professionally,

Attunement, from the perspective of a retired, (still) Licensed Psychologist, refers to ...

1) Alternative Medicine terminology, based strictly on anecdotal, subjective experience;

2) Dictionary definition referring to "harmonious relationship;"

3) Something not listed in the American Psychiatric Glossary.

4) Something I've never seen used in relation to ADHD, in 29+ years of continuous study.


tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

mildadhd
07-30-14, 09:46 PM
Professionally,

Attunement, from the perspective of a retired, (still) Licensed Psychologist, refers to ...

1) Alternative Medicine terminology, based strictly on anecdotal, subjective experience;

2) Dictionary definition referring to "harmonious relationship;"

3) Something not listed in the American Psychiatric Glossary.

4) Something I've never seen used in relation to ADHD, in 29+ years of continuous study.


tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

Then you disagree with my interpretation of Dr Schore's work and other researchers?

I swear I don't mean to confrontational, I just really disagree.



P

mctavish23
07-30-14, 09:53 PM
Never heard of Dr Shore.

I did find one other definition related parents being "attuned" to their babies reactions,

which made perfect sense to me. As far as the etiology of ADHD goes, it doesn't play a

part, as recognized in the mainstream literature. My opinion would be that it would fall

into one of the myriad of experiental influences that help shape early child development.

Don't see you as being confrontational. Valid question.

tc

Robert

mildadhd
07-30-14, 09:53 PM
You seem to keep ignoring questions that are asked of you while asking others for answers.

You answer my request for links - unless you don't have any - and then I'll try to answer your question.

Ok Lets say I don't have any, to make things easier.

My point was that nobody has any.

You keep saying I don't have any.

And I am saying I don't have any evidence of any single know causation factor.

So now its your chance to prove me wrong and present some actual biological research proving genes are the sole cause of ADHD.

I am guaranteeing you don't have any because we have all discussed this before and nobody had any biological evidense of a single causation factor for ADHD.

Again I agree with McTavish's peers, genes are involved and ADHD is real, but I don't know of any biological research saying that ADHD is the primarily genetic.

It may very well be in some cases, I just want to see your biological evidence, because I am unaware of any.





P

Lunacie
07-30-14, 10:06 PM
Ok Lets say I don't have any, to make things easier.

My point was that nobody has any.

You keep saying I don't have any.

And I am saying I don't have any evidence of any single know causation factor.

So now its your chance to prove me wrong and present some actual biological research proving genes are the sole cause of ADHD.

I am guaranteeing you don't have any because we have all discussed this before and nobody had any biological evidense of a single causation factor for ADHD.

Again I agree with McTavish's peers, genes are involved and ADHD is real, but I don't know of any biological research saying that ADHD is the primarily genetic.

It may very well be in some cases, I just want to see your biological evidence, because I am unaware of any.


P

Remember you accused me earlier of making a strawman argument?

That's what this looks like on your part.

I did not at any time say that there is a single causation factor ...

or that genetics are the sole cause of ADHD.

There is plenty of evidence that genetics play a part.

I'm not aware of any evidence that the things you listed play a part.

mildadhd
07-30-14, 10:11 PM
McTavish,

Here is a great outline of some of Dr.Schore's work.

I have been reading and rereading the link, and plan to take the online course in the near future.

Secure Attachment and Right Brain Development (http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course063.php)

by Allan N. Schore, Ph.D.

I think the information is part of the cornerstone to ADHD treatment.

But I am not ready to discuss everything yet, I still have a lot to learn, there are other researchers with similar work, lots are mentioned in the notes.

In this thread just wanted to get an idea of what people thought attachment and attunement are in general.

Since people with ADHD are known to have a slightly underdeveloped Right OFC.

I think the information may partially play a role in origin and/or treatment.

But I will save all those conversations for when I am better able to discuss the topics confidently.

P

mctavish23
07-30-14, 10:17 PM
Cool. Will look at it when I can. Getting ready to go back home again, which means I'm

actually training (like for a fight).

tc

Robert

mildadhd
07-30-14, 10:17 PM
Remember you accused me earlier of making a strawman argument?

That's what this looks like on your part.

I did not at any time say that there is a single causation factor ...

or that genetics are the sole cause of ADHD.

There is plenty of evidence that genetics play a part.

I'm not aware of any evidence that the things you listed play a part.



I have never accused anyone of the strawman arguement, I don't even know what the straw man arguement is?

Maybe your confusing me with some else?

P

Lunacie
07-30-14, 10:24 PM
I have never accused anyone of the strawman arguement, I don't even know what the straw man arguement is?

Maybe your confusing me with some else?

P

Sorry for the mixup. It was daveddd who said I was using a strawman argument.

Doesn't change your demand that I present proof of something I have never actually said.

That is a strawman argument.

mildadhd
07-30-14, 10:28 PM
Sorry for the mixup. It was daveddd who said I was using a strawman argument.

Doesn't change your demand that I prevent proof of something I have never actually said.

That is a strawman argument.

Your asking me for something you can't provide either.

I just want to learn how secure attachment and attunment can promote right brain development.

I will work on a better way to express the information.

P

Lunacie
07-30-14, 10:59 PM
Your asking me for something you can't provide either.

I just want to learn how secure attachment and attunment can promote right brain development.

I will work on a better way to express the information.

P

If I could provide the evidence that any of those things cause ADHD I wouldn't need to ask you to provide them.

When you opened this thread I wasn't sure what you were wanting to do with it.
Pasting quote after quote is overwhelming to me. One thing at a time seems to open a better discussion.

mildadhd
07-30-14, 11:12 PM
If I could provide the evidence that any of those things cause ADHD I wouldn't need to ask you to provide them.

When you opened this thread I wasn't sure what you were wanting to do with it.
Pasting quote after quote is overwhelming to me. One thing at a time seems to open a better discussion.

Then we have something in common.

Because I can't provide any evidence that genes are the sole cause of ADHD either.

I will work on my presentation.


P

Lunacie
07-30-14, 11:20 PM
Then we have something in common.

Because I can't provide any evidence that genes are the sole cause of ADHD either.

I will work on my presentation.


P

Why would you think you have to provide evidence that genetics is the SOLE cause of ADHD when NO ONE here has made that claim?

NO ONE has made that claim and NO ONE has to provide any evidence for an unmade claim.

:doh:

Lunacie
07-30-14, 11:32 PM
Let me see if I can explain this a little better.

There is evidence (replicated research) showing that genetics plays some part in ADHD.

There is no evidence that nothing else besides genetics is involved.

Which means there is no proof that genetics is the only or sole cause.

But so far there is no evidence for any other cause that's been considered.

Researchers are still looking into many things that may play a part.

When they find out if and what else is involved, we may be closer to finding better treatment.

mildadhd
07-30-14, 11:34 PM
Why would you think you have to provide evidence that genetics is the SOLE cause of ADHD when NO ONE here has made that claim?

NO ONE has made that claim and NO ONE has to provide any evidence for an unmade claim.

:doh:

I don't know.

P

mildadhd
07-30-14, 11:40 PM
What I do think, is that secure attachment/attunement promotes right brain development.



P

Lunacie
07-30-14, 11:48 PM
What I do think, is that secure attachment/attunement promotes right brain development.

P

That seems quite likely, but it's not the same thing as saying that a lack of secure attachment/attunement causes ADHD.

mildadhd
07-30-14, 11:52 PM
That seems quite likely, but it's not the same thing as saying that a lack of secure attachment/attunement causes ADHD.

Who said "lack of secure attachment and attunement causes ADHD?"

daveddd
07-31-14, 07:07 AM
periph

i was at my doctors yesterday

i asked him about naltrexone (opiate blocker) for my adhd attunement issues

he stared at his computer for awhile, i figured he was blowing me off

then he said interesting, you may be right

he is going to look into it more and we may try it next month

SB_UK
07-31-14, 08:13 AM
periph

i was at my doctors yesterday

i asked him about naltrexone (opiate blocker) for my adhd attunement issues

he stared at his computer for awhile, i figured he was blowing me off

then he said interesting, you may be right

he is going to look into it more and we may try it next month

The biology of social attachments: opiates alleviate separation distress.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/83167


? lack of attachment/attunement - need opiate
Same idea as rat park except human optimal environment = a properly social one ie living in the sun in the absence of a global social societal infrastructure won't work.

? attachment/attunement - supplies endogenous opiate

Lunacie
07-31-14, 09:14 AM
Who said "lack of secure attachment and attunement causes ADHD?"

You often quote Dr. Mate, and that's what he says.

I thought you agreed with him on that.

SB_UK
07-31-14, 09:41 AM
What I do think, is that secure attachment/attunement promotes right brain development.

P

Imagine having fun within a moral pan-environment - that'd undoubtedly promote brain/mind/personal development.

Which is fairly similar to suggesting secure att/att promotes ... ...

Thinking ADDer born attached to species ie species level property.
But education delivers people who are selfish and are not able to atttune.

So - ultimately - ADDer emergence - social reward menchanism - attached but not attuned - attunement failure on EVERY level ie to all people based on the education people receive and the extent to which people chase taking versus giving.

For the ADDer giving is taking.

How'd we know whether the nonADDer is faking ? because everybody knows that that it's good to give and not to take ... ...

people know.

What do you wear ?
How do you speak ?
What do you drive ?
What do you want to buy ?

When one desires to give rather than take - no THING any longer appeals.

Though it is nice to have a pair of underpants. Or maybe it isn't? Beginning to doubt even that wandering bare foot on a grass path in the sun.

Hmmm... all over tans.

Back to opiates.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1513309/

Walking barefoot on soft grass is so much nicer than sweaty feet in some rapidly wearing down and unsustainable 'landfill' fodder shoes.

-*-

If we jettison the pants then we arrive at a place where nearly NO THING that human beings make is of any use.

That's not far from the truth.

someothertime
07-31-14, 09:45 AM
Void = Substitute = Deviation = Presentation/Compensation
Nurture = Resilience = Progression = Integration = Development/Progression

ADHD or no ADHD, these concepts seem to make sense...

Emotional conditioning on the other hand... ;)

SB_UK
07-31-14, 09:52 AM
What do you wear ?
How do you speak ?
What do you drive ?
What do you want to buy ?


The funny thing about freedom from material woorld attachment / wisdom
- is that you can read more into the individual who is not liberated than the individual themself.

So - it's impossible for somebody to pretend that they're doing the right thing to an individual who MUST (wisdom) ie is compelled to do the right thing.

Each and every immoral consistency is revealed by the individual's behaviour, words etc.

Point ?

Suggesting ADDer appropriately attached to species but not attuned to others -
attunement failure based around education.
Key problem with education - what is wrong and what is right is not taught.

Instead lots of jargon based systems are taught with no connecton to morality.

In the absence of learning morality - people simply can't attune.

The mark of success in adder attunement would be finding somebody who actually wants to do the right thing.

Noting that that path is the path to liberation ie a state of mind which is happy without having to accomplish anything.

And that'd be a slacker ?

No - it'd be somebody who has the mind to ensure that whenever they do anything - it's actually for the best.

IE imperative to succeed out of the way (competition)
- we develop a new imperative - to become not better than another person, but just better - in the expectation that becoming better will pull the species along into an ever greater once in a lifetime experience.

Life should be a ride.
Not an exercise in torture.

SB_UK
07-31-14, 10:11 AM
So - I'm suggesting that in a species of people who gain reward from the social reward system from giving through launching a rational (mechanistic) understanding of what is right - and application
- that attunement would occur giving rise to endogenous opiate production

- as evidence by the obesity epidemic sweeping the world and naltrexone's effect of cutting carb / fat affinity

- the current diabesity epidemic is caused by money/education driving people away from the social, into the selfish reward system
- absence of endogenous - need starch/animal protein/sugar/animal fat to handle the shortfall

- home of obesity - home of capitalism ie USA

- all makes sense.

-*-

Destroy community and the individual loses out on an essential chemical for personal wellbeing.

Supplying the chemical in medical form ie injectable heroin isn't the answer

- brain/mind doses carefully

-- human beings inject too much - desensitize system - a one way trip straight to hell.

The love of money/power/heroin
- same old same.

mildadhd
07-31-14, 10:17 AM
You often quote Dr. Mate, and that's what he says.

I thought you agreed with him on that.

Lunacie,

Sorry

Could you quote accurately what people are saying?

It would make it a lot easier to discuss.


P

mildadhd
07-31-14, 10:20 AM
Void = Substitute = Deviation = Presentation/Compensation
Nurture = Resilience = Progression = Integration = Development/Progression

ADHD or no ADHD, these concepts seem to make sense...

Emotional conditioning on the other hand... ;)


Hi Someothertime,

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean?

P

SB_UK
07-31-14, 10:20 AM
So the human being's individual moral within collective moral existence represents the rat's 'park' (peripheral)

- in that no self-medication (morphine in rat park) and doughnuts for humans

- is required.

That sort of 50:50 fat and sugar mixture I cannot stop eating

wrong answer - sugar + fat.

Ins res king + Lep res queen must be quarantined in the basement.
Wonder whether ghee fried potatoes could take the mighty glazed doughnut on ?
Ghee, potatoes and doughnut are looking away - but they know who they are.

And they could all stand to lose a pound or two.

Embrace the ketone.

A peculiar metabolic hug ???

Lunacie
07-31-14, 10:33 AM
What I do think, is that secure attachment/attunement promotes right brain development.

P


That seems quite likely, but it's not the same thing as saying that a lack of secure attachment/attunement causes ADHD.



Who said "lack of secure attachment and attunement causes ADHD?"


You often quote Dr. Mate, and that's what he says.

I thought you agreed with him on that.


Lunacie,

Sorry

Could you quote accurately what people are saying?

It would make it a lot easier to discuss.


P


Not sure this makes anything easier to discuss, but there you are.

As far as what Dr. Mate says, here is the most recent quote from him in this thread:

I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant. They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD. Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors.

-Dr.Mate


What I understood you to be saying is that you agree with Dr Mate that lack of attachment and attunement
(caused by stresses) in the parent-infant relationship is a determining factor (or a CAUSE) of ADHD
by disrupting normal electrical and chemical brain development.

If that's not what you think, please explain more clearly.

If that's not what you think, then please explain why you quote Dr. Mate so often?

SB_UK
07-31-14, 10:47 AM
I think we're attached.
Emergence of social species.

I think we're not attuned ref education into right/wrong failure.

Internal opiates not forthcoming we demonstrate drug seeking behaviour.

At fault teaching for money not teaching right from wrong.

Money bad - therefore education teaches immorality.

mildadhd
07-31-14, 10:52 AM
The biology of social attachments: opiates alleviate separation distress.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/83167


? lack of attachment/attunement - need opiate
Same idea as rat park except human optimal environment = a properly social one ie living in the sun in the absence of a global social societal infrastructure won't work.

? attachment/attunement - supplies endogenous opiate






Thanks Everyone.

I think we are all on the right track.

I want to spend some time learning and reviewing the information again, in regards to attachment and attunement.

(Side Note have appointments today got to run, looking forward to discussing the topics more later)

..in small doses, opiates will elevate mood and promote social solidarity.

In large doses, they promote intoxication.

In fact, appropriate amounts of endogenous opioids can have medically beneficial effects.

For example, the placebo effect, whereby patients respond favorably to fake medications, can be explained in terms of this emotional chemistry.

If a patient feels that his needs are being considered and tended to, then the positive feelings of being cared for are accompanied by the release, in the brain, of calming endogenous opioids, which diminish the feelings associated with the GRIEF/PANIC system


Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology Of Mind", Pxiii


P

mildadhd
07-31-14, 11:00 AM
Not sure this makes anything easier to discuss, but there you are.

As far as what Dr. Mate says, here is the most recent quote from him in this thread:




What I understood you to be saying is that you agree with Dr Mate that lack of attachment and attunement
(caused by stresses) in the parent-infant relationship is a determining factor (or a CAUSE) of ADHD
by disrupting normal electrical and chemical brain development.

If that's not what you think, please explain more clearly.

If that's not what you think, then please explain why you quote Dr. Mate so often?

Thanks Lunacie,

I am late for an appointment.

I appreciate you quoting Dr.Mate and promise I will reply later.

P

SB_UK
07-31-14, 11:06 AM
So - if education/society permitted properly social interaction - where'd we be ?

Happy doing whatever we're doing until wisdom/pair-bond where we'd continue being happy doing whatever we're doing.

"Before Enlightenment chop wood carry water, after Enlightenment, chop wood carry water."

What's the difference ?

Prior to enlightenment - working towards a goal which you are programmed to desire ie liberation, freedom etc

After enightenment - well you're free - happy etc

So - 2 states of mind - 2 states - one happy taking the journey, the other happy when complete.

SB_UK
07-31-14, 02:34 PM
Attachment, Attunement are difficult terms.

If we use animal models - we see:
"The authors found that systemic naltrexone treatment of female prairie voles during initial exposure to a male reduced subsequent mating bouts and nonsexual socialization with this familiar partner"
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v36/n11/full/npp2011147a.html

All I'm taking away from this is that 'bonding' can activate a system (opioid) which we need activated (rat park experiment) - otherwise all manner of behaviours ensue including 'acting out' (Gabor Mate describing ADHD).

And that ADDers - attached to species wellbeing do not gain our 'hit' unless we interact with people who are similarly (socially) motivated.

So we mirror other people's happiness.
Thinking mirror neurones of the reward system.

And back around we come to the anterior cingulate cortex reward system.

Thing about it is that it is better to give than receive.
'Cos there's nothing actually out there as in no 'thing' that's worth having.

Only the fruits of human creativity (beauty)
- which no man can do on a 9 - 5.

It has to be a lifestyle, lifetime of pursuit of mastery.

And that isn't possible in a global monetary economy.

We need a global voluntary system.

To do - because it brings you pleasure to feel the pleasure others display at one's efforts.

someothertime
07-31-14, 04:21 PM
Was just suggesting that attunement and attachment are primarily develpomental concepts which can be applied to many higher mammals.

Emotional conditioning... I.e. ones application and volume level of an emotional influence is more than merely development... this line the one that devides human need aka.... recieve vs inact.... is a key differentiator / complexity.

It also serves to help understand lifes inluencers and behaviors in clearer seperation....

Not wishing to derail just highlight something.


Peace.

mildadhd
07-31-14, 06:44 PM
Was just suggesting that attunement and attachment are primarily develpomental concepts which can be applied to many higher mammals.

Emotional conditioning... I.e. ones application and volume level of an emotional influence is more than merely development... this line the one that devides human need aka.... recieve vs inact.... is a key differentiator / complexity.

It also serves to help understand lifes inluencers and behaviors in clearer seperation....

Not wishing to derail just highlight something.


Peace.

Thanks,

Your're not derailing the thread



Emotional Affect


(Tertiary) Emotional Self Regulation (Neo-cortical

(Secondary) Emotional Conditioned (Upper Limbic)

(Primary) Emotional Unconditioned Response Systems (Sub-neocortical)

mildadhd
07-31-14, 07:12 PM
periph

i was at my doctors yesterday

i asked him about naltrexone (opiate blocker) for my adhd attunement issues

he stared at his computer for awhile, i figured he was blowing me off

then he said interesting, you may be right

he is going to look into it more and we may try it next month

Thanks Daveddd,

I could be totally wrong but I think I read some opiate type things, may make Bi Polar worse, and some others may help?

I am not a professional but since you already brought it up with your doctor, anything I say, please comfirm with your doctor.

I can't remember where I read the information, I will get back to you with clarification.


(Side Note: I was wondering if early distressed attunment may be one reason, why some people with ADHD, use cannabis? (Neuropeptides? Not sure?)

I'm not sure, I could be totally wrong but I was wondering the same thing about another different opiate type thing aswell. (please leave roome for error)

Thanks


P

daveddd
07-31-14, 07:48 PM
since I've greatly improved emotional regulation, i don't get bipolar episodes anymore

now its just the empathetic distress , and emotional avoidance that i need the help with

with low dose vicodin i can become attuned and socially attach , the probably is i know vicodin is not practical (tolerance, addictive) so I'm hoping the naltrexone can help long enough to retrain my brain

mildadhd
07-31-14, 08:08 PM
Lunacie,


I believe that ADD originates in stresses that affect the mothering parent's emotional interactions with the infant.

They cause the disrupted electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD.

Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors.

-Dr.Mate


(P70)"I believe that ADD Originates in the stresses"..(-Dr.Mate)

In my opinion, anyone who has read "Scattered" should know Dr.Mate is discussing distressed attunement.

Side Note: I am usually not the person, who primarily posts that quote, resulting in similar debates , and didn't post it first in this in this thread either.



People with ADHD have a slightly underdeveloped Right Orbito Frontal Cortex.(OFC)

Secure attachment and attunement promote Right Brain Development (including the Right OFC)

Distress disrupts electrical and chemical circuitry..

I really like the way Addersaurus explains "factors"..


I think the word factors is preferable to causes, the word cause implies a 1-1 cause-effect relationship..

Part of the reason this argument goes round in circles is because people expect there to be a 1-1 basis for causation.

It simply does not exist with regard to ADHD, most certainly not from a genetic perspective.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1514760&postcount=7


i!i

mildadhd
07-31-14, 08:26 PM
Lunacie,

Sorry I don't have the email, but I actually wrote Dr.Mate about 5-7 years ago?, asking questions, similar to the questions you are asking.

And I am sure Dr.Mate said, he was referring to "stresses". (paraphrasing)

P

Lunacie
07-31-14, 08:29 PM
What I understood you to be saying is that you agree with Dr Mate that lack of attachment and attunement
(caused by stresses) in the parent-infant relationship is a determining factor (or a CAUSE) of ADHD
by disrupting normal electrical and chemical brain development.

If that's not what you think, please explain more clearly.

If that's not what you think, then please explain why you quote Dr. Mate so often?

Lunacie,


In my opinion, anyone who has read "Scattered" should know Dr.Mate is discussing distressed attunement.

Side Note: I am usually not the person, who primarily posts that quote, resulting in similar debates , and didn't post it first in this in this thread either.


People with ADHD have a slightly underdeveloped Right Orbito Frontal Cortex.(OFC)

Secure attachment and attunement promote Right Brain Development (including the Right OFC)

Distress disrupts electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD

I really like the way Addersaurus explains factors..


i!i

Yes ... I agree that distress disrupts the electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD,

thereby making it worse ... but not actually being a causing factor in the first place.


re the quote from Addersaurus ...

None of the people you keep butting heads with is saying that there is ONLY ONE CAUSING FACTOR of ADHD.

We agree there may be more than one factor, but so far the only factor with any evidence is genetics.

mildadhd
07-31-14, 08:31 PM
..with low dose vicodin i can become attuned and socially attach , the probably is i know vicodin is not practical (tolerance, addictive) so I'm hoping the naltrexone can help long enough to retrain my brain

I'm not sure that is the same type of attunement, although it may involve some of the similiar biological circuitry.

I don't know if vicodin is a good option, because it very addictive. (I'm not a professional)

P

mildadhd
07-31-14, 08:50 PM
Yes ... I agree that distress disrupts the electrical and chemical circuitry of ADHD,

thereby making it worse ... but not actually being a causing factor in the first place.


re the quote from Addersaurus ...

None of the people you keep butting heads with is saying that there is ONLY ONE CAUSING FACTOR of ADHD.

We agree there may be more than one factor, but so far the only factor with any evidence is genetics.


Lunacie,

Please show me some biological evidence that ADHD is primarily genetic?

As far as I know common endophenotypes, may or may not be related to causations.

I know ADHD is real and I know environment and genes are involved, but I can't prove that ADHD is primarily genetic.


The fact that healthy attunement is required for healthy emotional development and secure attachment/attunement promotes right brain development makes me wonder why some people can be so opposed to discussing such helpful topics.

Ironically, I really want to discuss how understanding attunment can help defuse oppositionality (counterwill), (See Neufled and Mate).

It is the cornerstone of my guardianing approach, and it works very well.(understatement)

I'll start a different thread.

Edit: I think we all butt heads.


P

daveddd
07-31-14, 08:52 PM
Yea. I don't do addiction. Anymore

I got some from the dentist once and for an injury and noticed that

Knowing that is what got me interested in naltrexone

What type do you mean. There are several changes in emotional processing with the opiate

daveddd
07-31-14, 08:54 PM
Things naltrexone have been tested and got some results

Emotional expression social. Emotional repression. Emotional dissociation

ruby.149.42
07-31-14, 09:14 PM
McTavish,

Here is a great outline of some of Dr.Schore's work.

I have been reading and rereading the link, and plan to take the online course in the near future.



I think the information is part of the cornerstone to ADHD treatment.

But I am not ready to discuss everything yet, I still have a lot to learn, there are other researchers with similar work, lots are mentioned in the notes.

In this thread just wanted to get an idea of what people thought attachment and attunement are in general.

Since people with ADHD are known to have a slightly underdeveloped Right OFC.

I think the information may partially play a role in origin and/or treatment.

But I will save all those conversations for when I am better able to discuss the topics confidently.

P

Brilliant link Peripheral - thanks for this and I will check out his course. Dr Schore is one of my heroes and I reckon everyone reading this thread would gain enormously from taking a look at his work.

mildadhd
07-31-14, 09:15 PM
Things naltrexone have been tested and got some results

Emotional expression social. Emotional repression. Emotional dissociation

Daveddd,

Sorry I am not disagreeing with you, I was wondering some similar questions, I was curious to know more.

If I remember correctly naltrxone was mentioned in what ever I was reading.

If I could only remember where I was reading the information.

(I meant to record where I found the information, to research the topics myself more)

SOunds Interesting, Daveddd, (I'm nervous to discuss other people taking meds, its so individual)

It might take me a while, but I think it might be worth investigating more.

I think it is what you are discussing, I think.

Let me get back to you, when things turn on.

Thanks.

P

ruby.149.42
07-31-14, 09:21 PM
aspergers and adhd are on the same spectrum

one is under controlled emotional regulation (adhd) and the other over controlled emotional regulation (aspergers)

I've cycled between the two in my lifetime

I'm still trying to get my head around the aspie / adhd link. The 2 certainly rear their heads together repeatedly within families and within individuals. I've just finished Gordon Neufeld's course "Making Sense of Attention" and he talks about aspergers when discussing the attentional sphere. I'll post a thread on this down the road - but want to discuss with them how much I'm allowed to post on here etc so could be a while. For any of you who are interested, I highly, highly recommend the course. A fair few maps to some of your thinking on EITHER / AND which you might find interesting SB.

Lunacie
07-31-14, 09:30 PM
Lunacie,

Please show me some biological evidence that ADHD is primarily genetic?

No.

Because I didn't say that ADHD is "primarily" genetic.

I said that the only evidence of something being a causative factor is for genetics.

Other things may well play a part, but so far there isn't any evidence for anything else.

Please try to see the difference between what I'm saying and what you think I'm saying. :doh:


As far as I know common endophenotypes, may or may not be related to causations.

I know ADHD is real and I know environment and genes are involved, but I can't prove that ADHD is primarily genetic.

Can you provide some evidence that environment is involved?


The fact that healthy attunement is required for healthy emotional development and secure attachment/attunement promotes right brain development makes me wonder why some people can be so opposed to discussing such helpful topics.

I don't have a problem with discussing the idea that healthy attunement promotes right brain development.

I do have a problem with unsubstantiated claims that it's a factor in the development of ADHD.


Ironically, I really want to discuss how understanding attunment can help defuse oppositionality (counterwill), (See Neufled and Mate).

It is the cornerstone of my guardianing approach, and it works very well.(understatement)

I'll start a different thread.

Edit: I think we all butt heads.


P

Dr. Ross Green wrote two great books - one for parents and one for teachers -

on ways to connect with kids and diffuse oppositional behavior.

(The Explosive Child and Stuck At School)

someothertime
07-31-14, 10:44 PM
I really want to discuss how understanding attunment can help defuse oppositionality (counterwill), (See Neufled and Mate).

It is the cornerstone of my guardianing approach, and it works very well.(understatement)

I'll start a different thread.

P

Butting heads is part of healthy disagreement... I think as a whole this is quite a healthy discussion here and the point above is an extremely valid tangent.

Informally, i see this oppositionality as a protection mechanism... ( in foundation ). Later, as more of a cortical / dopa etc. form of "self management" on an emotional level. ( Behavioral Pattern / Neurologically soothing )...

Indeed, if one were not to feel engagement and nurture, natural selection suggests a tendancy to harness fight / flight as a coping mechanism.....

ADHD....

perhaps.... this right brain development and enhanced fight flight pathways are relational..... or similar binding of some concepts and regulatory biological development and operation. In any event, I think this is an extremely valid tangent. One which plausible hypothesis and practical offsets are quite achievable realworld. Hope it gets some input / regard / study if not done so already.

Cheers!

mildadhd
08-01-14, 12:50 AM
Dr. Ross Green wrote two great books - one for parents and one for teachers -

on ways to connect with kids and diffuse oppositional behavior.

(The Explosive Child and Stuck At School)

Thanks,

It would be great to get your insight/perpective, when ever a thread comes around.

I'm completely burnt out at the moment.



P

mildadhd
08-01-14, 01:46 AM
All I'm taking away from this is that 'bonding' can activate a system (opioid) which we need activated (rat park experiment) - otherwise all manner of behaviours ensue including 'acting out' (Gabor Mate describing ADHD).



Hi SB_UK

Your post reminded me of the quotes in the thread link below.

"Trauma, Stress and the Biology of Addiction (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1669505#post1669505)"

Thanks


P

mildadhd
08-01-14, 01:57 AM
I'm still trying to get my head around the aspie / adhd link. The 2 certainly rear their heads together repeatedly within families and within individuals. I've just finished Gordon Neufeld's course "Making Sense of Attention" and he talks about aspergers when discussing the attentional sphere. I'll post a thread on this down the road - but want to discuss with them how much I'm allowed to post on here etc so could be a while. For any of you who are interested, I highly, highly recommend the course. A fair few maps to some of your thinking on EITHER / AND which you might find interesting SB.

Thanks Ruby

I'm really interested learning more about Dr.Neufeld's work.

P WEME

SB_UK
08-01-14, 05:20 AM
Been watching some TV - only really like 'Home in the sun'
- and we often see sons in the same business as fathers.

Is this genetic ?
No.

Would it appear to be heritable ?
Yes.

If parent is attached to species wellbeing - and you're attached to species wellbeing - and your child is attached to species wellbeing
- then we'll note heritability in the constellation of behaviours which occur when an individual changes their attachment paradigm.

So - shifting

tribe attachment -> species attachment.

Here's a perfect demonstration of what I'm trying to get at.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco
"When I was a young man, growing up in New York City, I refused to pledge allegiance to the flag. Of course I was sent to the principal's office and he asked me: "Why don't you want to pledge allegiance? Everybody does." I said: "Everybody once believed the Earth was flat but, that doesn't make it so." I explained that America owed everything it has to other cultures and other nations, and that I would rather pledge allegiance to the Earth and everyone on it. Needless to say, it wasn't long before I left school entirely. I set up a lab in my bedroom ... ..."



IE altered attachment paradigm from tribe to species -> results in -> mental disorder (depression, anxiety, drug seeking behaviour) in a society (species level) based around tribalism ie warring countries, warring religions, warring regions - just plain mindless pintless fighting over NOTHING in particular.

SB_UK
08-01-14, 05:25 AM
diffuse oppositional behavior.



I'm observing oppositional behaviour when a chid can't do, is afraid of looking stupid, doesn't enjoy

- and it's all down to the 3 year dev delay which has been documented in ADHD.

Can't be pleasant being completely out of your league in all interactions with class-mates.

You can't solve this problem by 'pushing on' - there has to be a parallel schooling environment - because the current one is out of kilter with kiddy's ability.

mctavish23
08-01-14, 02:19 PM
For the record,

My sister wanted to "attach" me to the back wheel of her BMW :eyebrow:

Seriously :faint:

Fortunately for me, I was attuned to her mood & behavior :yes:

Round II coming up Saturday - Saturday.

I pray it goes better, so we can be rid of all this.

tc

Robert :cool:

mildadhd
08-02-14, 12:12 AM
The MEWE's ran a very successful organic bakery, passed down for over 5 generations.

They always baked extra to give to the poor.

But due to unavoidable, accidental circumstances, the day after the MEWE's had celebrated the birth of triplets.

The triplets where adopted to into 3 separate homes 10 000 miles (16,093 km) apart.

The triplets grew up never knowing their other siblings existed, and all their loving adopting parents didn't know or teach anything about baking.

What are the odds that any of the triplets open a organic bakery?


P MEWE

Lunacie
08-02-14, 09:24 AM
The MEWE's ran a very successful organic bakery, passed down for over 5 generations.

They always baked extra to give to the poor.

But due to unavoidable, accidental circumstances, the day after the MEWE's had celebrated the birth of triplets.

The triplets where adopted to into 3 separate homes 10 000 miles (16,093 km) apart.

The triplets grew up never knowing their other siblings existed, and all their loving adopting parents didn't know or teach anything about baking.

What are the odds that any of the triplets open a organic bakery?

P MEWE

:rolleyes:
Even offspring raised by biological parents in a family business don't always keep working in that business.

Kids that have been adopted sometimes do find they are drawn to the same interests their biological parents had.

mildadhd
08-02-14, 10:30 AM
Even offspring raised by biological parents in a family business don't always keep working in that business.

Kids that have been adopted sometimes do find they are drawn to the same interests their biological parents had.

I agree, they might be draw to some feeling or interest, other than their adoptive parents interest.

Although they would be much much more likely to open a organic bakery, if they where actually taught.(learned)


If the MEWE's spoke Japanese, but the triplets grew up in three different places and where never expose to the Japanese language.

The triplets would never know how to speak the Japanese language, unless they where taught (learned).



P

mildadhd
08-02-14, 11:11 AM
A relationship is required.

P

Amtram
08-02-14, 11:14 AM
Allan Schore doesn't claim that attachment problems leads to ADHD.

He says that attachment difficulties can affect right brain development.

Then people who leap to the assumption that ADHD is a right-brain disorder attribute his findings on attachment and right brain development as evidence that attachment difficulties cause ADHD.

How is it less ridiculous to assume that ADHD is specifically a right-brain disorder than that it is caused by a collection of genes that affect development and connectivity of multiple brain areas that are already found to regulate thoughts and behaviors that are affected by ADHD?

mildadhd
08-02-14, 11:22 AM
Allan Schore doesn't claim that attachment problems leads to ADHD.

He says that attachment difficulties can affect right brain development.

Then people who leap to the assumption that ADHD is a right-brain disorder attribute his findings on attachment and right brain development as evidence that attachment difficulties cause ADHD.

How is it less ridiculous to assume that ADHD is specifically a right-brain disorder than that it is caused by a collection of genes that affect development and connectivity of multiple brain areas that are already found to regulate thoughts and behaviors that are affected by ADHD?



Attachment and attunement are determining factors.


(p70) Attachment and attunement, two crucial aspects of the infant-parent relationship, are the determining factors.

-Dr.Mate

If you read Scattered, you would know that Dr.Mate uses terms like "cause", a lot.

Because there are multiple causes...


For now on, I am using the term "factor(s)."

Because there are multiple factors.


P MEWE

Dizfriz
08-02-14, 11:45 AM
Attachment and attunement are determining factors.

But they are not determining factors in causing ADHD,

Dizfriz

Lunacie
08-02-14, 11:48 AM
I agree, they might be draw to some feeling or interest, other than their adoptive parents interest.

Although they would be much much more likely to open a organic bakery, if they where actually taught.(learned)


If the MEWE's spoke Japanese, but the triplets grew up in three different places and where never expose to the Japanese language.

The triplets would never know how to speak the Japanese language, unless they where taught (learned).



P

I want to understand exactly what you are saying here.

Are you saying that, like languages, ADHD is taught (learned)?


If so, this isn't even comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to golf balls.

Lunacie
08-02-14, 11:51 AM
Attachment and attunement are determining factors.




If you read Scattered, you would know that Dr.Mate uses terms like "cause", a lot.

Because there are multiple causes...


For now on, I am using the term "factor(s)."

Because there are multiple factors.


P MEWE

While there are some doctors and scientists looking into other factors that cause ADHD

there isn't any evidence that lack of attachment or attunement is a factor in causing ADHD.

mildadhd
08-02-14, 12:01 PM
I want to understand exactly what you are saying here.

Are you saying that, like languages, ADHD is taught (learned)?


If so, this isn't even comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to golf balls.

Sounds like you think everything is genetic?

Self Regulation is learned.

We are not totally born with the capacity to speak Japanese(languages/communicate) or self regulate.

A emotional regulation relationship, with at least one mature regulated primary caregiver, is required for healthy development of self regulation.

A language relationship, with at least one mature Japanese person , is required to learn Japanese.

Attachment and attunement are determining factors.


P

Dizfriz
08-02-14, 12:15 PM
I want to understand exactly what you are saying here.

Are you saying that, like languages, ADHD is taught (learned)?


If so, this isn't even comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to golf balls.
He has proposed this last year. Here is a copy of one of his posts on this.

Dizfriz,

Does your idea of ADD, include the whole brain?

For your information I think ADD is very real.

I have ADD.

ADD is learned through experiences before the age of 4.

Hypersensitive temperament may or may not exist at birth,

depending on individual and generational circumstances.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1533124&postcount=40 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1533124&postcount=40)

Dizfriz

Dizfriz
08-02-14, 12:29 PM
Sounds like you think everything is genetic?

Self Regulation is learned. But the capacity for self regulation is not. It is a result of the development of the executive functions which is determined mostly but not totally by heredity.

We are not totally born with the capacity to speak Japanese(languages) or self regulate. Nor are we born with the ability to use speech. It comes with the development of the brain which is mostly determined and controlled by the genetic make up of the individual. The same dynamic with the development of self regulation.

A regulation relationship, with at least one mature regulated primary caregiver, is required for development of self regulation.This is incorrect. The relationship is important but not mandatory. At least some degree of self regulation will develop in most child care situations and some children will show a deficit in this no matter how how good the relationship with the caregivers is.

Attachment and attunement are determining factors. Of many things but not ADHD.

Dizfriz

daveddd
08-02-14, 12:49 PM
i would say the capacity to develop executive functions is not biologically flawed in adhd humans

the ability to use them can be greatly affected by emotional intensity(genetic) and learned regulation

mildadhd
08-02-14, 12:54 PM
Development of self regulation begins in the midbrain/brainstem areas.(pre self regulation)

And is primarily emotional.(before the age of 2 or 3)*



P

daveddd
08-02-14, 12:56 PM
the genetic (or possibly chemical) predisposition for intense bottom up emotions like anger (barkley) or all of them (brown) including sensory processing , can get in the way of using executive function ,


ritalin has been shown to dampen these fear and anger responses, allowing foe executive functions to be used

daveddd
08-02-14, 01:05 PM
the most common heritable traits between family members with and without adhd is emotional liability

this difference , i would assume, without adhd is to still be able to regulate the self (not driven by emotion)

a broad adhd phenotype?

same type junk in autism

daveddd
08-02-14, 01:11 PM
Meditation, mindfulness and executive control: the importance of emotional acceptance and brain-based performance monitoring
Rimma Teper and Michael Inzlicht
+ Author Affiliations

Department of Psychology, University of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada M1C 1A4
Correspondence should be addressed to Rimma Teper, Department of Psychology, University of Toronto, 1265 Military Trail, Toronto, ON, Canada M1C 1A4. E-mail: rimma.teper@gmail.com
Received October 20, 2011.
Accepted April 5, 2012.

Next Section
Abstract

Previous studies have documented the positive effects of mindfulness meditation on executive control. What has been lacking, however, is an understanding of the mechanism underlying this effect. Some theorists have described mindfulness as embodying two facets—present moment awareness and emotional acceptance. Here, we examine how the effect of meditation practice on executive control manifests in the brain, suggesting that emotional acceptance and performance monitoring play important roles. We investigated the effect of meditation practice on executive control and measured the neural correlates of performance monitoring, specifically, the error-related negativity (ERN), a neurophysiological response that occurs within 100 ms of error commission. Meditators and controls completed a Stroop task, during which we recorded ERN amplitudes with electroencephalography. Meditators showed greater executive control (i.e. fewer errors), a higher ERN and more emotional acceptance than controls. Finally, mediation pathway models further revealed that meditation practice relates to greater executive control and that this effect can be accounted for by heightened emotional acceptance, and to a lesser extent, increased brain-based performance monitoring.

Key words
anterior cingulate cortex emotion error-related negativity meditation mindfulness
Previous Section
Next Section
INTRODUCTION


find a way to accept intense emotional states (mindfulness, dampen or normalize with stimulants or opiates) and find a way to use executive function

mildadhd
08-02-14, 01:11 PM
the genetic (or possibly chemical) predisposition for intense bottom up emotions like anger (barkley) or all of them (brown) including sensory processing , can get in the way of using executive function ,


ritalin has been shown to dampen these fear and anger responses, allowing foe executive functions to be used

Biologically, Self regulation (EF) is built upon primary emotional systems before the age of 2 or 3.

(Everyone agrees that self regulation begins to develop around the age of 2 or 3.)

Before the age of 2 or 3, consciousness in emotional. (pre self regulation)

After the age of 2 or 3 til adulthood ,consciousness becomes more cognitively mature, and take hold (self regulating lower emotions).



P

Lunacie
08-02-14, 01:11 PM
i would say the capacity to develop executive functions is not biologically flawed in adhd humans

the ability to use them can be greatly affected by emotional intensity(genetic) and learned regulation

That's a good point. As Dr. Barkley has pointed out, we have the capacity to know what we should do, but lack the ability to do what we know.


I lack the ability to see clearly at long distances. There is nothing my parents could have done to improve my ability to do that.

They did what they could, which was to take me to the eye doctor and get me glasses.

Nowadays there is surgery to reshape the eye and improve vision. Perhaps in the future there will be more help for ADHD.

mildadhd
08-02-14, 01:22 PM
That's a good point. As Dr. Barkley has pointed out, we have the capacity to know what we should do, but lack the ability to do what we know.


I lack the ability to see clearly at long distances. There is nothing my parents could have done to improve my ability to do that.

They did what they could, which was to take me to the eye doctor and get me glasses.

Nowadays there is surgery to reshape the eye and improve vision. Perhaps in the future there will be more help for ADHD.

Attachment and attunement are determining factors and essential for healthy development of self regulation, in all people.

Sensitivity(temperament) is what is hereditary.

Different parts/mechanisms/systems/ciruits of ADHD don't all develop at exactly the same time.

If I remember correctly peak periods of influence, is approx age 1?

A person may be born with a more sensitive temperament, but all the mechanisms involved in ADHD are not developed at birth.

They keep developing in interaction with the environment.(all people)

These are some of the reasons I am interested in development before 4.



P

daveddd
08-02-14, 01:23 PM
periph, i seen you mention schore earlier

have you read "affect dysregulation and disorders of the self" updated version

A+ reading

http://books.google.com/books?id=aYPuduCyw48C&printsec=frontcover&dq=allan+schore&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ch7dU7SYO8WjyATC-IKQCw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=allan%20schore&f=false

Dizfriz
08-02-14, 01:36 PM
Attachment and attunement are determining factors and essential for healthy development of self regulation, in all people.

Sensitivity(temperament) is what is hereditary.

Different parts/mechanisms/systems/ciruits of ADHD don't all develop at exactly the same time.

If I remember correctly peak periods of influence, is approx age 1?

A person may be born with a more sensitive temperament, but all the mechanisms involved in ADHD are not developed at birth.

They keep developing in interaction with the environment.(all people)

These are some of the reasons I am interested in development before 4.

If I am understanding you correctly, this was a very good post.

Dizfriz

Lunacie
08-02-14, 01:44 PM
Attachment and attunement are determining factors and essential for healthy development of self regulation, in all people.

Sensitivity(temperament) is what is hereditary.

Different parts/mechanisms/systems/ciruits of ADHD don't all develop at exactly the same time.

If I remember correctly peak periods of influence, is approx age 1?

A person may be born with a more sensitive temperament, but all the mechanisms involved in ADHD are not developed at birth.

They keep developing in interaction with the environment.(all people)

These are some of the reasons I am interested in development before 4.



P

Let's try an analogy.

Joe owns a Mercedes-Benz with a V-8 engine.

Don owns a Ford Fiesta with a 4-cylinger engine.

The Ford simply will not drive like the Mercedes-Benz, no matter how well the engine is broken in during the first thousand miles,
no matter how often it's serviced and cleaned, no matter how much it is loved and taken care of.

It just doesn't have the same capability as the car with the more powerful engine.


Yes, it will certainly run better and last longer than a Ford that isn't taken care of, but it won't ever be in the Mercedes-Benz class.

daveddd
08-02-14, 01:46 PM
we need a thread that can jump into the untapped mechanisms of social self regulation , i believe it begins around puberty

anyone?

someothertime
08-02-14, 04:24 PM
broad is good word, topic is attachment and attunement right?...

do we need to descend into cause? i like amtram's word.... affect.... alot...

is it not reasonable to conclude, based on the sparse presentations of the disorder/traits, that it is both the result of biological underlying predisposition and then "mutates" in presentation / affect based on developmental factors.

therefore, what is the extent of nurture / attachment's impact on this development... it seems relevant info has been eloquently, vehemently and certainly presented.

then, how can we offset?, what other key stages / experiences / biological systems are involved? etc. etc. etc. show me how brilliant are ;)

p.s. anyone seen twins? ( :giggle: )

someothertime
08-02-14, 04:34 PM
find a way to accept intense emotional states (mindfulness, dampen or normalize with stimulants or opiates) and find a way to use executive function

nice.

it is quite interesting, that developmental therapy which harnesses neuroelasticity in NT adults who suffer from severe PTSD via emotional conditioning makes use of a temporary mild emotion inhibitor medication, moreso at the beginning of treatment. perhaps opiates and their cousin's need only be applied in miniscule "windows of experience".........

anyone seen awakening ;) actually, i think you have some recent first hand experience with similar concepts dave...

one wonders if targeted specifically like this, the numb-er, the conditioning, the patch would produce a 10 fold alleviation of existing neural loops and pave the way for newer, healthier more productive circuitry and regulated cores.

it's a bit of a leap to translate this directly to executive function... tho' i see no reason why one could not develop the treatment to promote outcomes in several areas of critical sociatal function.


peace

daveddd
08-02-14, 06:32 PM
nice.

it is quite interesting, that developmental therapy which harnesses neuroelasticity in NT adults who suffer from severe PTSD via emotional conditioning makes use of a temporary mild emotion inhibitor medication, moreso at the beginning of treatment. perhaps opiates and their cousin's need only be applied in miniscule "windows of experience".........

anyone seen awakening ;) actually, i think you have some recent first hand experience with similar concepts dave...

one wonders if targeted specifically like this, the numb-er, the conditioning, the patch would produce a 10 fold alleviation of existing neural loops and pave the way for newer, healthier more productive circuitry and regulated cores.

it's a bit of a leap to translate this directly to executive function... tho' i see no reason why one could not develop the treatment to promote outcomes in several areas of critical sociatal function.


peace

what part is the leap, and how exactly?,


just a bit confused with your phrasing, not saying you're wrong

daveddd
08-02-14, 07:33 PM
i thought this was a cool page on adhd attunement issues

especially how it coninues through life

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ih8tBuZtEWgC&pg=PA240&dq=social+attunement+adhd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RHTdU5XvE9G2yATP9II4&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=social%20attunement%20adhd&f=false


the section starts a page before i linked if interested the whole chapter is actually pretty good on adhd as well

daveddd
08-02-14, 07:56 PM
dizfriz and mcT

i think i found what i consider attunement issues in adhd

and i believe one or both of you got me down the path

bronowkis language theory

separation of affect
prolongation
internalization and
reconstitution



i am on the right track?

Amtram
08-02-14, 08:29 PM
Attachment and attunement are determining factors and essential for healthy development of self regulation, in all people.


This is flawed reasoning. Many people are able to self-regulate regardless of early childhood environment.

daveddd
08-02-14, 08:34 PM
This is flawed reasoning. Many people are able to self-regulate regardless of early childhood environment.

or at least maintain an outward appearance of regulation

daveddd
08-02-14, 08:45 PM
This is flawed reasoning. Many people are able to self-regulate regardless of early childhood environment.

one theory is for those without genetic vulnerabilities , chances to learn self regulation socially after failing to early are much better

mildadhd
08-02-14, 09:34 PM
This is flawed reasoning. Many people are able to self-regulate regardless of early childhood environment.

Do you think infants can raise themselves?

That would be a weird movie.

We are mammals not reptiles.

I wonder what the youngest age, a person has ever raised her/himself from?

Before the age of 4, I am sure the child would distress itself to death.

A lack of self regulation would be the least of the child's worries.

Attachment and attunement are determining factors and essential for healthy development of self regulation, in all people.





P

mildadhd
08-02-14, 10:01 PM
In 1211, Frederick II, Emperor of Germany, in an attempt to discover the natural “language of God,” raised dozens of children in silence.

God’s preferred language never emerged; the children never spoke any language and all ultimately died in childhood (van Cleve, 1972).


Childhood Experience and the Expression of Genetic Potential: What Childhood Neglect Tells Us About Nature and Nurture (http://centerforchildwelfare2.fmhi.usf.edu/kb/chronicneglect/childexperience.pdf)





!!!!!

SB_UK
08-03-14, 02:55 AM
John Ball (c. 1338 – 15 July 1381) was an English Lollard priest who took a prominent part in the Peasants' Revolt of 1381 [who according to Melvyn Bragg yesterday] took it upon himself to express the language of God through overcoming hierarchy (nobility, land owners, lawyers, clergy - all corrupt).

So why do some attach/attune to repression.
And why do some rail against it (not wishing for any material gain).

And why do the majority rail against it - seeking material gain.

It's dangerous to gain the assistance from any whose motivation is selfish.

Once again we're brought down to the lowest common denominator of personal reward system/motivation.

Is it attempting to be true (moral) ? or easily bought ???

someothertime
08-03-14, 04:46 AM
what part is the leap, and how exactly?,


just a bit confused with your phrasing, not saying you're wrong


at the heart of PTSD is emotional overload... or unability to process. the events are replayed as if now. in ADHD, a similar process occurs. as do coping mechanisms of self defeat, avoidance etc. etc. this is a little overwhelming to say... fragility, self doubt, tentativeness... the list goes on.

to be clear, i am not trying to draw any certain correlation between the two "labels" or "conditions"....

researchers found a way to "force processing". they "expose" the individual to the events... again and again ( in a safe environment though none the less in as much detail as is capable ) ... each time lowering a small dose of emotional "blocker"...

essentially... what i am saying is that;

emotional?/+++ = !
&
e....m....o....t...i...o....n.....a......l+++ =
e..m...o...t...i..o..n...a..l++ =
e.m.o.t.i.o.n.a.l.+ =
normal emotions

in the context of the thread... the principle has relevance in the formative years... via pacing and conditioning mechanisms. and for adult therapy via the same concepts.

i think this "offset factor" is extremely relavent when discussing person-a vs person-b.

it boils down to this.

attunement is not possible if the volume is too soft or too loud... ( intensity of emotion ). this is the reason for the negative space or "flight" / internalisations. the result? cyclical.

formation with paced exposure to stressors OR offsets to emotional regulation serve more benefit than almost any other treatment.


peace.

mildadhd
08-03-14, 10:04 AM
at the heart of PTSD is emotional overload... or unability to process. the events are replayed as if now. in ADHD, a similar process occurs. as do coping mechanisms of self defeat, avoidance etc. etc. this is a little overwhelming to say... fragility, self doubt, tentativeness... the list goes on.

to be clear, i am not trying to draw any certain correlation between the two "labels" or "conditions"....

researchers found a way to "force processing". they "expose" the individual to the events... again and again ( in a safe environment though none the less in as much detail as is capable ) ... each time lowering a small dose of emotional "blocker"...

essentially... what i am saying is that;

emotional?/+++ = !
&
e....m....o....t...i...o....n.....a......l+++ =
e..m...o...t...i..o..n...a..l++ =
e.m.o.t.i.o.n.a.l.+ =
normal emotions

in the context of the thread... the principle has relevance in the formative years... via pacing and conditioning mechanisms. and for adult therapy via the same concepts.

i think this "offset factor" is extremely relavent when discussing person-a vs person-b.

it boils down to this.

attunement is not possible if the volume is too soft or too loud... ( intensity of emotion ). this is the reason for the negative space or "flight" / internalisations. the result? cyclical.

formation with paced exposure to stressors OR offsets to emotional regulation serve more benefit than almost any other treatment.


peace.

Do you mean creating conditions with a little more joy than sadness?


P

daveddd
08-03-14, 10:13 AM
if I'm not mistaking , was it mate who had a similar idea for 'shame scenes' and MDMA

daveddd
08-03-14, 10:31 AM
this thread is starting to be really good

the paragraph starting with friedman , on emotional intensity and attunement in adhd

are we sharing similar thoughts here, id like to make sure peripheral

http://books.google.com/books?id=1yBDvWHZoVMC&pg=PA44&dq=social+attunement+adhd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WUbeU-SYL6Ga8QHYyoCAAQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=social%20attunement%20adhd&f=false

mildadhd
08-03-14, 10:52 AM
John Ball (c. 1338 – 15 July 1381) was an English Lollard priest who took a prominent part in the Peasants' Revolt of 1381 [who according to Melvyn Bragg yesterday] took it upon himself to express the language of God through overcoming hierarchy (nobility, land owners, lawyers, clergy - all corrupt).

So why do some attach/attune to repression.
And why do some rail against it (not wishing for any material gain).

And why do the majority rail against it - seeking material gain.

It's dangerous to gain the assistance from any whose motivation is selfish.

Once again we're brought down to the lowest common denominator of personal reward system/motivation.

Is it attempting to be true (moral) ? or easily bought ???


Motivation is a primary emotional affect.

In Affective Neuroscientific biological terminology, it is called the General Pos Motivation SEEKING/expectancy system. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1636861#post1636861)

Dopamine and Norepinephrine producing cells originate in the midbrain/brain stem area.

I'm only focusing on the dopamine because the SEEKING system is driven by dopamine, there are a lots of other neurochemicals and system circuitries involved.


Whenever there is an increased release of dopamine in the brain, animals are more aroused in a distinct type of way.

They become more eager and inquisitive.

As detailed in Chapter 3, when this happens animals exhibit SEEKING behaviors that can anticipate all kinds of attractive events in the environment.

The lateral hypothalamus (LH) is one brain structure that becomes aroused when animals are in this excited state.

Others are the nucleus accumbens further up in the brain and also the medial frontal cortex, which is even farther up.

All these brain regions are connected by a remarkably large pathway that connects the lower and higher areas of the brain, known as the medial forebrain bundle (MFB), which contains many, many distinct neurochemicals networks, some which operate with dopamine.

Direct electrical stimulation of each of these brain regions, all along the MFB, also produces such excited responses.

Animals love to self-activate such electrode sites--and they readily begin to self-stimulate their own brains in compulsive, addictive ways.


Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", P27-28.



P

mildadhd
08-03-14, 12:46 PM
this thread is starting to be really good

the paragraph starting with friedman , on emotional intensity and attunement in adhd

are we sharing similar thoughts here, id like to make sure peripheral

http://books.google.com/books?id=1yBDvWHZoVMC&pg=PA44&dq=social+attunement+adhd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WUbeU-SYL6Ga8QHYyoCAAQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=social%20attunement%20adhd&f=false

Hi Daveddd,

Good Question.

If we look at post #153 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1669408&postcount=153).(as a example)

Someothertime was discussing secondary and tertiary process levels of control (conditioned responses and self awareness).

While Peripheral was focusing on primary process level of control, (unconditioned emotional responses.)

So in my opinion, we where both right/correct, but focusing on different levels of control.

Emotional Affect(feelings)

(Tertiary level of control) Emotional Self Regulation (Neo-cortical)

(Secondary level of control) Emotional Conditioned (Upper Limbic)

(Primary level of control) Emotional Unconditioned Response Systems (Sub-neocortical)

Presently I am learning about the primary level of control, unconditoned emotional response systems we are born with, and early critical period of development when brain systems are developing for the first time. (before the age of 4)

(And how unintentional adoption, anxiety, depression, like, distress can interfere with attunement and influence implicit (automatic) brain systems development.)


Thanks for asking.

P

mildadhd
08-03-14, 01:11 PM
Sometimes people are discussing from the top down view

Sometimes people are discussing from the ground up view.

And we may disagree and argue when there is a possibility that everyone is right, but focusing on different levels of control.

Another example.

I agree with Dr.Barkley theories in general, if we are discussing a top down explicit view, development after the age of 2-4.

But I disagree with Dr.Barkley theories in general, if we are discussing a bottom up implicit view, development before the age of 2-4.

Dr.Barkley's theories are not wrong if we are discussing secondary and tertiary processes, from the topdown.

(although Dr.Barkley does recognize subcortical involvement, it is from the top down view)

For the record Dr.Barkley's work is one of a few key factors, in helping me fill in the blanks, and understand the difference between top down explicit development, and ground up implicit development.



P

mildadhd
08-03-14, 09:01 PM
John Ball (c. 1338 – 15 July 1381) was an English Lollard priest who took a prominent part in the Peasants' Revolt of 1381 [who according to Melvyn Bragg yesterday] took it upon himself to express the language of God through overcoming hierarchy (nobility, land owners, lawyers, clergy - all corrupt).

So why do some attach/attune to repression.
And why do some rail against it (not wishing for any material gain).

And why do the majority rail against it - seeking material gain.

It's dangerous to gain the assistance from any whose motivation is selfish.

Once again we're brought down to the lowest common denominator of personal reward system/motivation.

Is it attempting to be true (moral) ? or easily bought ???

Thanks SB_UK

(Heavy question)

I think having an emotional hypersensitive temperament, makes it more likely that I am more empathetic and compassionate, because I have "walked in someone elses shoes" to some degree.

Although because I have an emotionally hypersensitive temperament, doesn't mean I am always empathetic and compassionate, sometime I can be a real buttox.




The derivation of sensitivity is from the Latin word senir, "to feel."

Degrees of sensitivity reflect degrees of feeling.

Of the various Oxford Dictionary definitions of sensitive, it will be useful to keep three in mind.

Each is exquisitely apt as a description of the ADD child:

1. Very open to or acutely affected by external stimuli or mental impressions.

2. Easily offended, or emotionally hurt.

3. (As of an instrument) responsive to or recording small changes.

The word has another connotation, that of being empathetic, respectful of other people's feelings.

The two meanings may coexist in the same individual, but not in every case.

Some of the most sensitive people in terms of how they react may be the least mindful of the feelings of others.



Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", p 58.


i!i i!i

mildadhd
08-03-14, 09:38 PM
So why do some attach/attune to repression.(-SB_UK)

Distressed attachment and attunement, must still find something to attach and attune to,(biological mammalian survival thing?)

Opiates, cannabis, gambling, workaholic, sex, money, internet, (cough, cough) etc. fills the void.............................................. .........

It's not all bad.

I'm really thankful to meet you and everyone else here at ADDF.









P

mildadhd
08-03-14, 09:43 PM
Eustressed attachement and attunement are determining factors.








:)

Lunacie
08-03-14, 09:51 PM
Eustressed attachement and attunement are determining factors.








:)

Incomplete thought.

If you're saying that those are factors in causing ADHD, repeating yourself over and over
isn't going to convince those of us who are looking for evidence, not rhetoric.

mildadhd
08-03-14, 10:00 PM
Incomplete thought.

If you're saying that those are factors in causing ADHD, repeating yourself over and over
isn't going to convince those of us who are looking for evidence, not rhetoric.

Joyful, eustressful attachment and attunement relationship, are determining factors, in the treatment of ADHD.

P

mildadhd
08-03-14, 10:17 PM
The PLAY system (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1636861#post1636861) is the most wonderful and fun system that mother nature gave us.

Real play, is really roughhousing, rough and tumble, running, chasing, playing tag, hide and seek.

If we try to line children up for kicking soccer ball, that is a stylized play, but that not real play.

Real play is something the children themselves do and that is the good stuff for the brain...(Prof. Panksepp)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KanfLqKXYg

ruby.149.42
08-03-14, 10:25 PM
Distressed attachment and attunement, must still find something to attach and attune to,(biological mammalian survival thing?)

Opiates, cannabis, gambling, workaholic, sex, money, internet, (cough, cough) etc. fills the void.............................................. .........


My take on it is that these rather than proxy / surrogate unfulfilled attachment / attunement .. they simply anaesthetise the void / squash the systemic restlessness which is core to ADHD.

But good old mother nature gave us all a wonderful system we can use in any instant, very happily and healthily instead of the types of things you've listed but the crying shame was that none (majority) of us were taught how to use it as kids. Costs nothing, feels great and just the flip of what's causing us so much grief i.e., the PNS. We need to teach children to meditate (doesn't have to be on bum on cushion - MANY ways). We need to teach them to be able to quickly switch off fight / flight and operate from their heart. Every soul with a correct diagnosis of ADHD is under incredibly stress and alarm and in constant FF.

Teach them to turn it off, teach them to achieve their "high's" through eudaimonic happiness which our sensitivity means we can perfectly attune to, get them out of competitive school environments and stop shoving vile food down their throats and we're good.

Lunacie
08-03-14, 10:39 PM
Joyful, eustressful attachment and attunement relationship, are determining factors, in the treatment of ADHD.

P

I agree that those are beneficial in treating ADHD.

But the post I quoted was about "eustressed attachment and attunement being determining factors."

What are you saying that they are factors for? :confused:

mildadhd
08-03-14, 11:08 PM
I agree that those are beneficial in treating ADHD.

But the post I quoted was about "eustressed attachment and attunement being determining factors."

What are you saying that they are factors for? :confused:


development




P

mildadhd
08-03-14, 11:31 PM
My take on it is that these rather than proxy / surrogate unfulfilled attachment / attunement .. they simply anaesthetise the void / squash the systemic restlessness which is core to ADHD.

But good old mother nature gave us all a wonderful system we can use in any instant, very happily and healthily instead of the types of things you've listed but the crying shame was that none (majority) of us were taught how to use it as kids. Costs nothing, feels great and just the flip of what's causing us so much grief i.e., the PNS. We need to teach children to meditate (doesn't have to be on bum on cushion - MANY ways). We need to teach them to be able to quickly switch off fight / flight and operate from their heart. Every soul with a correct diagnosis of ADHD is under incredibly stress and alarm and in constant FF.

Teach them to turn it off, teach them to achieve their "high's" through eudaimonic happiness which our sensitivity means we can perfectly attune to, get them out of competitive school environments and stop shoving vile food down their throats and we're good.

I think your right, I'm going to have to review all secondary and tertiary information more.

I am also realizing, I need to learn those things, before I can expect anyone else, plus a few other things, "and we're good".

I was stepping out into new water, in attempt try and discuss SB_UK complex questions.

I did feel out of my confidence zone, when I was replying.

I find everything so much easier when I start from the primary affects, from the ground up.

Today, my son and I went for a quiet walk/talk, sit and listen and stare, etc, in the woods.

It really does help. (Screen time verse green time)

Thank you and others for the guidance.




P

someothertime
08-04-14, 03:37 AM
Do you mean creating conditions with a little more joy than sadness?


P

Before this thread my gut pointed toward facilitation. While this is important...

I'm mostly talking about enabling emotional digestion .

ruby.149.42
08-04-14, 05:30 AM
I think your right, I'm going to have to review all secondary and tertiary information more.

I am also realizing, I need to learn those things, before I can expect anyone else, plus a few other things, "and we're good".

I was stepping out into new water, in attempt try and discuss SB_UK complex questions.

I did feel out of my confidence zone, when I was replying.

I find everything so much easier when I start from the primary affects, from the ground up.

Today, my son and I went for a quiet walk/talk, sit and listen and stare, etc, in the woods.

It really does help. (Screen time verse green time)

Thank you and others for the guidance.

P

Hi P - didn't mean to come across that there was anything wrong with your reply at all. Just looking at it from a slightly different angle.
Can't beat a good walk in the woods I reckon :). Glad you enjoyed it. So calming, so peaceful, exactly where kids should be. Green time is so critical and what's happening with kids and screens these days REALLY concerns me. Particularly for the extra sensitive souls we're talking about, being exposed to truckloads of cartoonised violence. All extra pegs on the alarm / stress side which nobody seems to worry about. If Disney peddles it, then it's got to be good for them right? Sorry, spinning off on another tangent :).

someothertime
08-04-14, 10:06 AM
a study of children found 1 hour a day of nature time as effective as adderall...

green time = physical and emotional regulation = emotional mediation = attunement...



question;

is attunement in ADD transient? ( or at least way less solidified ) this might be in older age groups... say past 9... we seem to shed connection? or need to break it in order to be autonomous? moreso than with the NT mind?

-does this not pose questions about what might aid in it's presence / maintenance?

Lunacie
08-04-14, 10:13 AM
a study of children found 1 hour a day of nature time as effective as adderall...

green time = physical and emotional regulation = emotional mediation = attunement...



question;

is attunement in ADD transient? ( or at least way less solidified ) this might be in older age groups... say past 9... we seem to shed connection? or need to break it in order to be autonomous? moreso than with the NT mind?

-does this not pose questions about what might aid in it's presence / maintenance?

What I've seen in my grandkids (ADHD and Autism) is inconsistency.

Much more marked than in neuro-typical kids I think.

mildadhd
08-04-14, 11:32 AM
question;

is attunement in ADD transient? ( or at least way less solidified ) this might be in older age groups... say past 9... we seem to shed connection? or need to break it in order to be autonomous? moreso than with the NT mind?

-does this not pose questions about what might aid in it's presence / maintenance?



Thank You

I have become more interested in learning more about other stages of development, in this thread.

Earlier Daveddd mentioned, puberty period of development (10-18?), there are different periods of development/maturity.

The line between implicit and explicit development/maturity, seems extremely important to recognize.

-implicit before 2-4* (emotional consciousness)

-explicit after the age of 2-4* (cognitive consciousness)

Before the age of 2-4* implicit functions are more mature.

About the age of 2-4*, explicit functions involved in learning and awareness, begin to mature.

Consider lower more mature emotional biology(pre self regulation)(implicit) before higher cognitive biology has matured

Side Note: implicit memory is much harder to discuss, because discussing is an explicit function.

Superduper layman please leave room for my learning.

I am much more comfortable with considering the primary implicit biology, than explicit, (the more complex secondary and tertiary process)

Correction/opinins/changes..appreciated.


P

mildadhd
08-04-14, 12:32 PM
is attunement in ADD transient? ( or at least way less solidified ) this might be in older age groups... say past 9... we seem to shed connection? or need to break it in order to be autonomous? moreso than with the NT mind?

-does this not pose questions about what might aid in it's presence / maintenance?



I find my own need to be autonomous partly because I learn differently.

Being more sensitive, can distress attunement process more.

If the attunement distress is addressed, with more attuned (accommodations).

I would be less likely to want to leave, if the environment accommodated my impairment.

(in addition to normal teen autonomy and life..)






P

mildadhd
08-04-14, 01:09 PM
While I've been focusing on attunement with a primary care giver, from birth to the age of 4*.

Here is good article about attunement after the age of 4*.

I definitely could have had better accommodations at home and in school (in regards to ADHD), I am sure my parents tried really hard, with the awareness the where taught, and I also had a few great teachers that really understood the power of attunement.


"My teacher can hear me thinking. She knows when I want to paint and then she lets me."

—Comments of a four-year-old girl explaining why she loves to go to school.


The Importance of Attunement (http://www.scholastic.com/teachers/article/attunement-reading-rhythms-child)



i!i

mildadhd
08-04-14, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by someothertime View Post


green time = physical and emotional regulation = emotional mediation = attunement...

I agree with your view from the Top Down view. (except it doesn't include primary emotional systems form the ground up)

In addition:

From the ground up (including lower subcortical/midbrain area, where raw emotional affects (feelings) originate "pre experience" before they are regulated (neocortical) and learned.(upper limbic)

green time = attunement with nature = primary positive emotional affects (SEEKING , CARE, PLAY) = physical and emotional regulation (teritary, neocortex) = emotional mediation (secondary, upper limbic)

P

someothertime
08-06-14, 05:59 AM
do we not require the traditional modes for these things?

love ( nurture )... let's say pre-2 ( implicit ;) ) i get.

now this explicit thing... i guess what i'm saying is there is a duality here... : cognitive development <> emotional development(altered needs)


i'd really like to hear anyones views on how our needs during this explicit stage and beyond are fundamentally different... what are they?

my gut is saying attunement is 10 fold whereas attachment is momentary... why?

mildadhd
08-06-14, 09:11 PM
my gut is saying attunement is 10 fold whereas attachment is momentary... why?



Maybe partly because 90% of the (implicit) adult brain develops before the age of 2-4*, and 10% of the (explicit) adult brain develops, after the age of 4-adulthood?*

(In general, the explicit is built upon implicit?)

(Please leave room for learning on my part, I am learning to discuss theses topics, and I appreciate the discussion)

Opinion?


P

mildadhd
08-06-14, 09:39 PM
Side Note

I think attachment and attunement relationship, occurs during both implicit and explicit stages of development.

Attachment and attunement are important through human lives, but their influence on human development is much greater during early development partly due to the rapid period brain growth, and brain mechanisms developing for the first time.

P

mildadhd
08-06-14, 10:03 PM
The three environmental conditions absolutely essential to optimal human brain development are nutrition, physical security and consistent emotional nurturing.

In the industrialized world, except in cases of severe neglect or dire poverty, the baseline nutritional and shelter needs of children are usually satisfied.

The third prime necessity--emotional nurture--is the one most likely to be disrupted in Western societies.

The importance of this point cannot be overstated: emotional nurturance is an absolute requirement for healthy neurobiological brain development.

"Human connections create neuronal connections"-
-in the succinct phrase of child psychiatrist Daniel Siegel, a founding member of UCLA's Center for Culture, Brain and Development.(*8)





-Gabor Mate M.D., "In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts", P 185.




(*8) D.Siegel, "The developing Mind: Toward a Neurobiology of Interpersonal Experience (New York: The Guild Press, 1999), 85.


i!i i!i

mildadhd
08-06-14, 10:39 PM
People can be loved, but not attuned.

(pre verbal emotional eye contact, etc/emotional communication/special emotional human relationship(promotes development of complex higher human emotional self regulation abilites))

P

mildadhd
08-06-14, 11:10 PM
Self-regulation does not refer to "good behaviour" but to the capacity of an individual to maintain a reasonably even internal emotional environment.

A person with good self regulation will not experience rapidly shifting extremes of emotional highs and lows in the face of life's challenges, difficulties, disapointments and satisfactions.



Gabor Mate M.D., "In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts". p 239.





i!i i!i

Lunacie
08-06-14, 11:14 PM
That's a very narrow way of looking at "self regulation." This makes more sense to me.

Self-regulation is the ability to monitor and control our own behavior, emotions, or thoughts, altering them in accordance with the demands of the situation. It includes the abilities to inhibit first responses, to resist interference from irrelevant stimulation, and to persist on relevant tasks even when we don't enjoy them.
http://www.education.com/reference/article/self-regulation-development-skill/

That really explains the problems with self-regulation that we find in ADHD, doesn't it?

mildadhd
08-06-14, 11:35 PM
That's a very narrow way of looking at "self regulation." This makes more sense to me.


Self-regulation is the ability to monitor and control our own behavior, emotions, or thoughts, altering them in accordance with the demands of the situation. It includes the abilities to inhibit first responses, to resist interference from irrelevant stimulation, and to persist on relevant tasks even when we don't enjoy them.


http://www.education.com/reference/article/self-regulation-development-skill/

That really explains the problems with self-regulation that we find in ADHD, doesn't it?


Yes, that is a good quote, but not much how self regulation develops. (in link quote above.)

P

mildadhd
08-06-14, 11:41 PM
Lunacie, there are also good quotes about development of self regulation from your link. (http://www.education.com/reference/article/self-regulation-development-skill/)

When Do Children Develop Self· Regulation Skills?

Precursors of self-regulation appear early in life.

Very young babies show no evidence of conscious self- regulation, but they do show primitive control of some aspects of their behavior and reactions.

Even within the first few months of life, infants will turn away from sources of too much stimulation, such as loud music or voices.

At 12 to 18 months, children show awareness of social demands in their environment.

They are able to comply with simple requests from a caregiver, such as "come here" or "wave bye-bye."

They can voluntarily initiate, maintain, and stop behaviors, particularly when they are interacting with someone they know well.

By age 2, children are able to show aspects of self-control even when a caregiver is not immediately with them.

From 3 to 11 years, children grow steadily in their ability to inhibit first responses, with particularly rapid improvements from age 3 to 5.

In one study, for example, 4-year-old children were better than 2.5-year-olds at not peeking while an experimenter wrapped a gift (Gerstadt, Hong, & Diamond, 1994; Kochanska, Murray, Jacques, Koenig, & Vandegeest, 1996; Kopp, 1982; Simpson & Riggs, 2005).


Older children and adolescents are increasingly able to self-regulate not only their behavior but also their emotions and problem-solving strategies...

mildadhd
08-07-14, 01:09 AM
I find reminding myself about this quote, exceptionally helpful, when considering emotional relationship with my son and my own parenting approaches.

In attunement, it is the infant who leads and the mother who follows.

"Where the roles differ is in the timing of their responses,"

writes John Bowlby, one of the century's great psychiatric researchers. (*6)

The infant initiates the interaction or withdraws from it according to his own rhythms, Bowlby found, while the

"mother regulates her behaviour so that it meshes with his...Thus she lets him call the tune and by a skillful interweaving of her own responses with his creates a dialogue."


Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", P 73.



(*6) Bowlby, "A Secure Base", p 7



i!i i!i

daveddd
08-07-14, 09:53 AM
Gabor Mate M.D., "In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts". p 239.





i!i i!i

Seems spot on

Lunacie
08-07-14, 10:16 AM
Yes, that is a good quote, but not much how self regulation develops. (in link quote above.)

P


Oh. Didn't realize that's what you were going for. Your quote didn't explain how self-regulation develops.

It seemed to limit self-regulation to an either-or situation ... either behavior or emotions. I think it's both and more.


And as you realized, there was more information in the article about how self-regulation develops.
I'm not one for quoting an entire article - there are copyright laws - that's why I give the link, so you can read it yourself.

daveddd
08-07-14, 10:24 AM
Oh. Didn't realize that's what you were going for. Your quote didn't explain how self-regulation develops.

It seemed to limit self-regulation to an either-or situation ... either behavior or emotions. I think it's both and more.


And as you realized, there was more information in the article about how self-regulation develops.
I'm not one for quoting an entire article - there are copyright laws - that's why I give the link, so you can read it yourself.

Emotion is the direction of energy through the body

All behavior requires emotion

Or Barkley says. Emotion drives everything

mildadhd
08-09-14, 01:37 PM
Note in the video, preverbal emotional eye contact (visual) stimulation/communcation, goes to the deeply subcortical, midbrain/brainstem area where primary emotions originate. (7 unconditioned emotional response systems.)(instinct)

Attachment and Attunement are secondary and tertiary processes.

Emotions are more than direction of energy, instinctual emotional feelings emotional originate in raw 7 separate unconditoned emotional response systems, located in the midbrain/brain stem areas.

Which higher "motor skills, behavioral control, logic, language, memory", etc (involving condition (learned) and self regulation systems) are built upon during early development.

(Layman please leave room for learning)


P




(1:06)..Simple circuits form first, providing a foundation for more complex circuits to build on later.


Through this process neurons form strong circuits and connections for emotions and motor skills, behavioral control, logic, language and memory, during the early critical period of development.

With repeated use these circuits become more efficient and connect to other areas of the brain more repeatedly

While they originate in the specific areas of the brain, the circuits are interconnected.

You can't have one type of skill without the others to support it.

Like building a house, everything is connected and what comes first, forms a foundation for all that comes later.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNNsN9IJkws

mildadhd
08-09-14, 02:17 PM
(Missed edit time:)

Attachment and Attunement are secondary and tertiary processes.

Preverbal emotional eye contact with a primary caregiver + unconditioned emotional response systems = secondary (emotional conditioning) and tertiary (emotional self regulation)


(Layman)


P

daveddd
08-12-14, 03:08 PM
i think we know attunement is a huge contributing factor in adhd


i found a page i wanted to share

I'm definitely on the over controlled end, which is often missed in ADHD research

http://books.google.com/books?id=7cxjBdYcUmcC&pg=PA400&dq=attunement+adhd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a2TqU-HqI5L-yQSllYH4BA&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=attunement%20adhd&f=false

Lunacie
08-12-14, 03:30 PM
i think we know attunement is a huge contributing factor in adhd


i found a page i wanted to share

I'm definitely on the over controlled end, which is often missed in ADHD research

http://books.google.com/books?id=7cxjBdYcUmcC&pg=PA400&dq=attunement+adhd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a2TqU-HqI5L-yQSllYH4BA&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=attunement%20adhd&f=false

I get something different when I read this (from the link):

When a child experiences a failure in attunement, it may be due to a parent's limitations or to the child's difficulties in making a connection with a parent who is willing and capable of responding. Whichever the source of the disruption, the developmental process leads to a breach in the link the child makes between his or her affect states and parenting responses.

Doesn't it makes sense that a child with issues within the brain at birth would have
more difficulty making the connection to the parent, leading to slower development
in those areas of the brain responsible for the initial problem?

Therefore, having ADHD could be a huge contributing factor to lack of attunement.
.