View Full Version : Predisposition or Predisposition/Environment or Environment


mildadhd
07-25-14, 10:42 PM
Predisposition or Predisposition/Environment or Environment




Or Other

daveddd
07-25-14, 10:44 PM
predisposition/environment

environmental factors varying

mildadhd
07-25-14, 10:58 PM
predisposition/environment

environmental factors varying

My predisposition varied on environmental factors.


P MEWE

Stevuke79
07-25-14, 11:06 PM
Or is it possible that one's various environments could be predisposed to ADHD?

Greyhound1
07-26-14, 12:12 AM
Or is it possible that one's various environments could be predisposed to ADHD?

Also, what about ones predisposition caused by environmental factors?

Ex. Parents drug use or lifestyle caused it during development

I think I have to go with all the above. I voted for other. I think someone could probably make a case for any of them.

Stevuke79
07-26-14, 12:39 AM
And let's not forget that ADHD itself predisposes you to certain environments, all of which need to be factored in.

mildadhd
07-26-14, 12:54 AM
Or is it possible that one's various environments could be predisposed to ADHD?



I think so, but only after expression of any predisposition/hypersensitive temperament has been determined, in interaction with the environment.




P MEWE

mildadhd
07-26-14, 01:37 AM
Also, what about ones predisposition caused by environmental factors?

Ex. Parents drug use or lifestyle caused it during development

I think I have to go with all the above. I voted for other. I think someone could probably make a case for any of them.

Great point!

I think epigenetic inheritance does make it more likely that some people may have a higher combination and length of gene variants, making expression of predisposition more likely.

And some people may have experienced stronger environmental factors that makes gene expression more likely.

There is always some varying combination of genes and environment involved, I don't think genes or environment can exist separately.





P MEWE

mildadhd
07-26-14, 01:55 AM
Great Points!

(I misunderstood/mixed up my first first reply to your post, please note corrections/changes)

Originally Posted by Stevuke79
Or is it possible that one's various environments could be predisposed to ADHD?

I think distressful environments may makes expression of any inherited sensitive temperament/predisposition more likely, but I don't think an inherited hypersensitive predisposition is always required. (not all people are born hypersensitive, but exposed to extreme conditions, interfering with development in some cases)


And let's not forget that ADHD itself predisposes you to certain environments..

I think so, but only after expression of any predisposition/hypersensitive temperament has been determined, in interaction with the environment,







P MEWE

mildadhd
07-26-14, 02:46 AM
I probably should have titled the OP thread/tiltle and poll,

"Genes or Genes/Environment or Environment"

(Because I think genes and environment are always involved to some degree, but sensitive temperament/predisposition is not always required.)

Specifics would depend on the individual/circumstances.




P

Amtram
07-26-14, 02:59 PM
ADHD is a complex condition, will likely prove to be polygenic, so it's not a simple dichotomy of causes.

Stevuke79
07-26-14, 03:21 PM
Well, yes Amtram that is correct, but considering the complexity of the predispositions themselves, the dichotomy of ADHD and on'e environment can present a certain hypersensitivity.

Dizfriz
07-26-14, 03:53 PM
Predisposition or Predisposition/Environment or Environment



Predisposition so to speak-mostly genetic with some exceptions for certain kinds of trauma to the brain. This genetic predisposition usually needs to be there before ADHD will express.

environmental factors varyingMostly affecting expression or severity. The environment can have a huge impact of if and how the genes for ADHD will express. For causes you are mainly looking at the genetic make up of the individual (genotype). For expression (phenotype) it is the combination that determines how it plays out in the world.

Also there is no one kind of temperament that is exclusive to ADHD and a specific temperament is not necessary for the disorder.

Other than that I think you are getting it.

Amtram ADHD is a complex condition, will likely prove to be polygenic, so it's not a simple dichotomy of causes. And to add on, it is looking like it is involved with a complex interaction of a number of parts of the brain.

As Amtram is saying, ADHD is a complex condition. As part of that complexity, it will probably be a number of years before we really begin to get any kind of detailed handle on it

Peri I think epigenetic inheritance does make it more likely that some people may have a higher combination and length of gene variants, making expression of predisposition more likely. I an not sure what you mean here but keep in mind that epigenetics does not involve changes in the genes themselves. I suspect it will not involve changing the length of gene variants. I am not sure what you mean by "higher combination".

Dizfriz

Dizfriz
07-26-14, 04:01 PM
Also, what about ones predisposition caused by environmental factors?

Ex. Parents drug use or lifestyle caused it during development

Yes it can but what is happening is that the drugs and/or lifestyle are resulting in injury to the fetus's brain. We know trauma of this sort can greatly increase the chances that a child will express ADHD symptoms. It appears that ADHD of this type may be different from genetically based ADHD and is often more difficult to treat. The medications often do not seem to have as much impact with these cases, makes it tough for those kids.

Very good point.


Dizfriz

Stevuke79
07-26-14, 05:28 PM
wait,.. I thought this was a game. Is this a discussion? oops. sorry. :doh: :doh:

daveddd
07-26-14, 05:35 PM
Predisposition so to speak-mostly genetic with some exceptions for certain kinds of trauma to the brain. This genetic predisposition usually needs to be there before ADHD will express.

Mostly affecting expression or severity. The environment can have a huge impact of if and how the genes for ADHD will express. For causes you are mainly looking at the genetic make up of the individual (genotype). For expression (phenotype) it is the combination that determines how it plays out in the world.

Also there is no one kind of temperament that is exclusive to ADHD and a specific temperament is not necessary for the disorder.

Other than that I think you are getting it.

Amtram And to add on, it is looking like it is involved with a complex interaction of a number of parts of the brain.

As Amtram is saying, ADHD is a complex condition. As part of that complexity, it will probably be a number of years before we really begin to get any kind of detailed handle on it

Peri I an not sure what you mean here but keep in mind that epigenetics does not involve changes in the genes themselves. I suspect it will not involve changing the length of gene variants. I am not sure what you mean by "higher combination".

Dizfriz

Dizfriz. I'm excited for u to get caught back up in research. There are some great discoveries with temperment and ADHD even by Barkley

You'll like them

Hope ur feelin better

Dizfriz
07-26-14, 06:06 PM
Dizfriz. I'm excited for u to get caught back up in research. There are some great discoveries with temperment and ADHD even by Barkley

You'll like them

Hope ur feelin better
Thanks.

I don't keep up as much as I did when I was working, other things going on.

I do subscribe to Barkley's ADHD Report which is useful as he lists the latest research he thinks important.

I haven't read all that much on ADHD and temperament lately so could you point me to some of the discussion and research. I would appreciate it.

Dizfriz

daveddd
07-26-14, 06:11 PM
I can tommorriw. On phone now at party

mildadhd
07-26-14, 06:26 PM
Maybe I should have titled the OP thread/title and poll questions:

"Polygenic or Polygenic/Environment or Environment"

( I would pick Polygenic/Environment)


Most polygenetic traits are partially influenced by the environment.

For example, height is partially influenced by nutrition in childhood.

If a child is genetically programmed to be average height but does not get a proper diet, he or she may be below average in size.


Other examples of environmentally influenced traits are mental illnesses like schizophrenia and depression.

A person may be genetically predisposed to have depression, so when that person's environment contributes major stresses like losing a job or losing a close relative, the person is more likely to become depressed.

http://moodleshare.org/mod/book/view.php?id=2138&chapterid=300

Drewbacca
07-27-14, 01:28 AM
IF the ADHD symptoms don't cause a person to struggle, does the person still have ADHD?

Even if it does, is it ADHD? Lots of ADHD symptoms can be caused by another disorder.

For the sake of argument, if there was just *one* gene that predisposed someone to ADHD and you managed to get a diagnosis while lacking that gene, is it ADHD?

There's too many people that have not had any evident environmental influences that are diagnosed with ADHD. There's no research showing otherwise.

So, either

a) environmentally-caused ADHD (assuming predisposition) is actually a different disorder with the similar affects (possibly some form of anxiety). In other words, we are promoting that two different things are one in the same.

b) environment is irrelevant in the formation of the disorder.

That's not to say that environment doesn't make it more difficult to live with the disorder, I'm just saying that it doesn't cause the disorder. If it does cause the disorder, then that disorder isn't actually ADHD but something related. IMHO.

I think that ADHD is ill-defined by medical science, making this poll/question irrelevant.

daveddd
07-27-14, 01:54 AM
Barkley acknowledges a certain infant temperment in ADHD

He also states only about 50% of the infants go on to have ADHD

Something like a diathesis /stress model wich seems most accepted in psychiatry

daveddd
07-27-14, 01:56 AM
ADHD is just a symptom group. No a specific illness

Drewbacca
07-27-14, 03:50 AM
ADHD is just a symptom group. No a specific illness

Heh... thanks, you said what I was trying to say in only ten words! :goodpost:

SB_UK
07-27-14, 04:06 AM
Predisposition = Sensitive <- relatively specific
interaction
Environment = Insensitive <- hard to be relatively specific
leads
to ADHD disorder element

I think this point has been raised.

So sensitivity is only stressed in insensitive environments.

What stresses sensitivity ?
I'd prefer to answer the question by what has been proven to be distressful.

But how can life fail to be distressful ?
Very easily actually - by living life optimally at the physical, mental and spiritual level ie an appropriate amount of exercise, sun exposure, appropriate social relations, absence of pollution etc etc etc

-- all potentially verifiable using science
- we eliminate distress.

No - we don't people will still die - that must be distressful
- just to pick on the obvious distressor which remains in a world where all people live to a ripe old age and die in their sleep without any chronic disease pre-amble.

No - that's not distressful.

What's distressful to the individual is living a diseased life prior to death.
What's distressful to the 'friend' is overcome by the 'friend' achieving wisdom (loss of attachment) whereby death is seen as an inevitable and not a distressful (to individual who has died or friend) event.

-*-

So - ALL distress can be alleviated.

And this happens to be pretty much what we've been hearing for thousands of years in the statement that 'alleviation of human suffering through escaping material world attachment'

... ... ie 'clean' deaths (the only obvious distressor in a disease-free world) will still occur - but neither the individual nor associate will care
- if both have made it through to wisdom ie loss of material world attachment.

Dying properly is the point to life.

daveddd
07-27-14, 10:08 AM
IF the ADHD symptoms don't cause a person to struggle, does the person still have ADHD?

Even if it does, is it ADHD? Lots of ADHD symptoms can be caused by another disorder.

For the sake of argument, if there was just *one* gene that predisposed someone to ADHD and you managed to get a diagnosis while lacking that gene, is it ADHD?

There's too many people that have not had any evident environmental influences that are diagnosed with ADHD. There's no research showing otherwise.

So, either

a) environmentally-caused ADHD (assuming predisposition) is actually a different disorder with the similar affects (possibly some form of anxiety). In other words, we are promoting that two different things are one in the same.

b) environment is irrelevant in the formation of the disorder.

That's not to say that environment doesn't make it more difficult to live with the disorder, I'm just saying that it doesn't cause the disorder. If it does cause the disorder, then that disorder isn't actually ADHD but something related. IMHO.

I think that ADHD is ill-defined by medical science, making this poll/question irrelevant.

i can't believe environment is irrelevant in the formation of this disorder



or if it , i doubt anyone can separate the extremely encompassing and complex disorder adhd had evolved into

its taken on a little bit of every disorder in the dsm , but yet i don't agree its always separate from them

the dimensional approach to psychological seems to be what makes sense (that doesn't mean categories are bad for professional communication or insurance )

daveddd
07-27-14, 10:14 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=KStJo6hRS48C&pg=PA84&dq=russell+barkley+negative+infant+temperament&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YLeGUrzVE8ag2gWJ14DoAQ&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=russell%20barkley%20negative%20infant%20temperam ent&f=false

early temperament

Dizfriz
07-27-14, 11:42 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=KStJo6hRS48C&pg=PA84&dq=russell+barkley+negative+infant+temperament&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YLeGUrzVE8ag2gWJ14DoAQ&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=russell%20barkley%20negative%20infant%20temperam ent&f=false

early temperament
Thanks loads!

I haven't read on this in a while. I have the book and will go back and read that part again so I can understand what you are saying about temperament.

Thanks again,

Dizfriz

daveddd
07-27-14, 01:21 PM
environment though doesn't have to be parents

from what I'm starting to understand , it can be an interaction between temperament (extreme irritability) and simply life itself

coping mechanisms so to speak , for overwhelming emotions and environmental input

i believe thats why the emotional acceptance (vippisanni ) form of mindfulness is starting to show to be so useful for poor executive function

SB_UK
07-27-14, 01:37 PM
Vipassana, which means to see things as they really are


is exactly right.


A breathtaking illusion
- though you have to see it for yourself.


quote - Feynmann,Einstein
though Beatles, Imagination also.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21VbKgOM0gg


Know what's illusion
Infer what's real.

daveddd
07-27-14, 01:38 PM
especially when you look at adhd in certain genetic disorders like fragile x, where hypersensitivity to everything is well known

this same hypersensitivity can probably also lead to coping mechanisms that will meet the criteria for aspergers disorder (maybe not the classic autism )

SB_UK
07-27-14, 01:44 PM
See through material world [requires mind]
Lose materialism
Observe loss of attachment to material world factors
hey hey hey ! You're free

The love of money, power is a frightfully persistent delusion which understanding the reality illusion shifts from mind.

mildadhd
07-27-14, 09:18 PM
See through material world [requires mind]
Lose materialism
Observe loss of attachment to material world factors
hey hey hey ! You're free

The love of money, power is a frightfully persistent delusion which understanding the reality illusion shifts from mind.

There seems to be a difference between essential material attachment and non essential material attachment?

I'm focusing on the essential material attachment.

P

mildadhd
07-27-14, 09:26 PM
(P 42-43)In some people, there will be a greater concentration of development problems.

This may be because their specific circumstances were worse, or because they were more sensitive, deeply affected by conditions that other with more robust temperaments could better withstand.

They are the ones likely to be diagnosed with ADD or with some other "disorder".

(p 59) People with ADD are hypersensitive.

That is not a fault or a weakness of theirs, it is how they were born.

It is their inborn temperament.

That, primarily, is what is hereditary about ADD.

Genetic inheritance by itself cannot account for the presence of ADD features in people, but heredity can make it far more likely that these features will emerge in a given individual, depending on circumstances.

It is sensitivity, not a disorder, that is transmitted through heredity.

In most cases, ADD is caused by the impact of the environment on particularly sensitive infants.


Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered".


i!i i!i

SB_UK
07-28-14, 03:27 AM
In the Highlander, the point of victory was to be able to see into the minds of men.

This could be taken to mean that with wisdom, the individual is able to communicate meaningfully with other people ie see what they mean regardless really of the words they use.

So many words are used either incompletely or falsely -
to be able to get into the mind of - as the consequence of attachment/attunement would be key in delivering a better world.

So - maybe attachment/attunement can be simly understood as a deeper level to communication which permits the individual to read accurately between the lines of what's said.

Deep analysis of words show that most are of no information content.

eg I hope it's going to be sunny

Why say this - it will or won't ?
Why say this - what use is it to somebody else ?
What does sunny mean - 1 hour ... ... 2 hours ?

How many of the words we use are fillers ?

OK - so define how to define which words are useful.

Easy - born without a mind.
Purpose of life - to build a mind so we're happy.
All words which allow that mind of morality to construct asap are useful.

Bit like a house - all that we care about is the construction going up - that's the point of the exercise.

Never fully liked the term attachment/attunement but would make sense from the point of deep communication.

We find that children (eg) have no deeper insight into the minds of others and that selfishness is what appears as a key attribute without empaty - it can drive the parent mad - trying to work out why the child is behaving so callously to others

- where the development of empathy - I guess - will occur - regular point - through an individual defining what is right / what is wrong for himself/herself rationally.

Golden rule is key.

It'd be nice if we could transport the people who abuse into the shoes of those they indirectly abuse (eg third world sweat shop workers)
- for the people here with wardrobes full of clothes sewn by children
to have the life of those children
-- that would build morality.

TV offers that prospect for some
- for others it simply reinforces how 'lucky' they are not to be born into poverty
- which is hardly morality.

Tough luck mate.

SB_UK
07-28-14, 03:51 AM
In the Highlander, the point of victory was to be able to see into the minds of men.

Problem is that you don't have anything to say afterwards.

So -
personal expression capacity / empathy
-> leads ->-
happiness where there's no real desire to express anything to anyone.

You're happy.

A bit like knowledge (for a reason) - connecting the process of personal expression to knowledge (observational science).

The point of knowledge if to syntesize into understanding whereupon the structure of mind forms and the individual is happy.
None of the information in mind is useful.
It's the happiness, freedom state of mind which we sought.

So - we get things the wrong way around
- and try to become as good as possible with words, generate as much knowledge as possible
- compare this to increasing levels of materialism to combat problems ie compounding problems

-- when completion of mind results in a vast simplification of words used, understanding of reality, need for words, need for scientific data
- and so it continues.

IE we can't divide up science, language, morality, religion
- any of these things.

Words echo the state of a mind.

The point is to generate a mind which is rationally (science) consistent with species wellbeing.

Attachment, Attunement of the species into 1 communicating structure ??might?? be the trick to getting us all on the same page, speaking the same language

- most importantly though shifting us away from the default state of competition/violence in human relations.

-*-

Without using any complicated argument - if all people deeply understood the need for collaboration - all people would collaborate.
Competition just wouldn't be an option.

Note we need to collaborate to become as personally good (unique) as we can be.

Otherwise we're simply measuring ourself on the gradient in a playing field.
Why'd anybody think that they're the 'best' in the world when only a small handful have the option to compete ?
Survival is a step too far for many - and a great deal succumb.

In the same way that nobody closes their eyes when crossing the road - despite never having been explicitly told.

-*-

Trying to get at the idea of species wide attachment/attunement as a the formation of a species which is enforcedly moral.

So what does ADHD have to do with it ?
No reward from standard behaviours.
Desperate for reward.
If lucky - only avenue which satisfies is understanding context.
Perhaps relates to logical subcomponent of mind ie inclusive only ie AND as opposed to exclusive EOR (competition).
Use fast-track to building a consistent mind and then challenge with all observations - putiing in place a lively and simply model of understanding for all people to share.

The problem with EOR as opposed to AND minds
- is that there're an infinite number of models for mind which can be formed on EOR ie if double think is permitted / cognitive dissonance doesn't occur then we've an infinite number of routes (minds)

- but they won't be consistent with one another.

We need a mind which is enforcedly consistent (internally) and then for it to communicate with other minds which are internally consistent
- now once that occurs - it should be possible to convert EOR minds to AND global logical consistency.

So - what're you saying ?
The scientific model for mind which ADDers are predisposed to - because of a change in the repeating structure of our mind
- makes it impossible for us not to achieve wisdom.
Or at least - we're driven mad by logical inconssitencies which's our motivation to build a logically consistent model of understanding.

Now developing the model still does require access to people who can communicate and information
- the internet massively speeds up the process of enquiring minds gaining satisfaction.

So what is attachment / attunement ?

I think it's simply about a single structure formed from mirror neurones enveloping the species - occurring (appearing to occur) alongside a single model of reality being grapsed by all
- and a capacity for people to communicate meaningfully.

SB_UK
07-28-14, 04:05 AM
Problem is that people will not like this argument for child ADDers.

From the perspective of child though - I can remember not ever being too sure why I'm supposed to learn 'things' which didn't appear (I couldn't define why they were) of interest.

And so boredom.

It's fairly well defined that ADDers can pay attention when captivated.

From the perspective of a child - the ADDer is bored/stressed in an environment where they're supposed to do something that is of no obvious benefit.
This is undoubtedly compounded by the 3 year developmental delay

- it's possible that the same information relayed on 3 years later actually might prove interesting ... .... don't know

-- but I thinkthat it's not particularly challenging to suggest that boredom results in incapacity to pay attention, learn results in the need for meds to suppress a stress reation and not upset the classroom.

The meds are predomnantly being used to make the teacher's life easier though.
The meds do help the child (personal experience) in not feeling discomfort also.

But the key point to be made is that the discomfort felt by child is of our own making.

If a child is not ready (see documented 3 year delay in ADHD) - then what'd you expect ?

It's documented that ADDers do catch up - perhaps we should be looking for a different schooling system for ADDers.

Now - the suggestion could be made that ADDers are defective
- to which I'd suggest that delayed maturation is equally well able to reference better ie the longer the period of development from conception to completion - could easily be seen to equate to higher evolutionary status / complexity.

Rodent gestation periods of days - Human development periods of (if we're referencing wisdom) - ~ 40 years.

You're not human unless you're consistent with all observational data.

SB_UK
07-28-14, 04:12 AM
Different schooling system
I like defining what's right and what's wrong.
-- basis for primary school ?
EMPATHIZING

I like connection ie to start from the bottom and to work to the top.
-- basis for secondary school ?
SYSTEMATIZING

Once we're empathizing-systematizing balance - we're able to specialise.

It's absolutely key though that we're using the social reward system (doing what's rationally best for the species) and deriving neurochemical reward for doing it
- because everything we then do will be 'good'.

That's all really - so a unity of morality followed by rationality resulting in a reward system which expresses itself in social and not selfish avenues.

If it brings you pleasure to do the right thing, and you know what the right thing is
- then you'll do it.

SB_UK
07-28-14, 04:45 AM
So bringing it all together.

Sadly the overall conclusion is very simple.

To be able to communicate is what we're supposed to achieve through completion in construction in mind.

The underlying structure to words (ie the mind) must be internally logically consistent in order to communicate meaningfully - or perhaps internally logically consistent with human wellbeing given all validated data (experimentally defined observational data).

There's no real point in trying to build a mind which is consistent with a flying spaghetti monster which comes out and sprays us with love each time we close our eyes
- because that just won't be possible.