View Full Version : Discussing personal differences/experiences, without denouncing ADHD?


mildadhd
09-03-14, 12:28 PM
People with ADHD have things in common.

But not all people with ADHD have all the same things common.

How can we best discuss individual differences/experiences, without denouncing/stimatizing ADHD?











P

mildadhd
09-03-14, 01:46 PM
Biology (affective temperament) + experiences = ADHD severity?

(opinions appreciated, work in progress, nothing written in stone)


Are all (biological) affective temperaments the same?

Are all experiences the same?


What are (biological) affective temperaments?

What are experiences?




P

SB_UK
09-03-14, 02:01 PM
People with ADHD have things in common.

But not all people with ADHD have all the same things common.

How can we best discuss individual differences/experiences, without denouncing/stimatizing ADHD?

P

All we need to do is identify the core aetiological basis of adhd.
-> sensitivity

Then those likely direct consequences will become apparent.
-> stress relief from sensitivity trodden over

And those completely unconnected aspects of ourselves with ADD will become apparent.
-> colour of hair

SB_UK
09-03-14, 02:11 PM
What is this sensitivity ?

Well - definitely senses ie loud noise
Definitely - blood glucose levels ie tendency to fat deposition
Also definitely to morality - using the mind argument ie to logically consistent with species wellbeing
Sensitivity to other people - don't like seeing people in trouble

But there's also the chance that we've some telepathic connection - it's bizarre last 2 lectures I've been to - answers that I don't really know come to mind when I'm zoning out - answers which I wouldn't come up with -

so the trick appears to be to zone out when thinking of a specifically made question with the questioner having the answer in mind.

So all of these are definitely in place.

The telepathic communication thing is a bit iffy - but I'm pretty sure there's something there.

mildadhd
09-03-14, 02:16 PM
All we need to do is identify the core aetiological basis of adhd.
-> sensitivity

Then those likely direct consequences will become apparent.
-> stress relief from sensitivity trodden over

And those completely unconnected aspects of ourselves with ADD will become apparent.
-> colour of hair



Hypersensitive biological affective temperament + distressful experiences = more sever ADHD?

Hypersensitive biological affective temperament + eustressful experiences = less sever ADHD?





P

SB_UK
09-03-14, 02:21 PM
This telepathic thing has been around from the start with potential neurochem reward ie chills felt

- really nice mechanism that - imagine communication activating the reward system ie actual reward felt/received on just plain communication ... ... ...

- that's what I'd suggest - I think - is our grand sensitivity.

A form of communication (of reward) which solidifies a social organism.

mildadhd
09-03-14, 02:23 PM
What is this sensitivity ?

Well - definitely senses ie loud noise
Definitely - blood glucose levels ie tendency to fat deposition
Also definitely to morality - using the mind argument ie to logically consistent with species wellbeing
Sensitivity to other people - don't like seeing people in trouble

But there's also the chance that we've some telepathic connection - it's bizarre last 2 lectures I've been to - answers that I don't really know come to mind when I'm zoning out - answers which I wouldn't come up with -

so the trick appears to be to zone out when thinking of a specifically made question with the questioner having the answer in mind.

So all of these are definitely in place.

The telepathic communication thing is a bit iffy - but I'm pretty sure there's something there.




What could a (biological) hypersensitive affective temperament consist of?

Hypersensitive emotional affects
Hypersensitive homeostatic affects
Hypersensitive sensory affects





P

SB_UK
09-03-14, 02:23 PM
Hypersensitive biological affective temperament + distressful experiences = more sever ADHD?

Hypersensitive biological affective temperament + eustressful experiences = less sever ADHD?





P


hypersensitive + eustressful experience -> no ADHD (defined as disorder)
hypersensitive + distressful spectrum low to high -> ADHD (low to high debilitating)

SB_UK
09-03-14, 02:29 PM
What could a (biological) hypersensitive affective temperament consist of?

3 Hypersensitive emotional affects
2 Hypersensitive homeostatic affects
1 Hypersensitive sensory affects

P


1 Well - definitely senses ie loud noise
2 Definitely - blood glucose levels ie tendency to fat deposition
3 Also definitely to morality - using the mind argument ie to logically consistent with species wellbeing
3 Sensitivity to other people - don't like seeing people in trouble

So 123 labelled

SB_UK
09-03-14, 02:35 PM
Also can't communicate with more than 1 person at a time.

Communication with multiple people is tiring/confusing ... ... all consistent with some form of bidirectional reward transfer in communication ... ...

Definitely something there but getting at an expt to draw it out 'd be challenging.

mildadhd
09-03-14, 02:41 PM
hypersensitive + eustressful experience -> no ADHD (defined as disorder)
hypersensitive + distressful spectrum low to high -> ADHD (low to high debilitating)


Severe inherited (biological) hypersensitive affective temperament + eustressful experiences = ?

Severe inherited (biological) hypersensitive affective temperament + distressful experiences = ?



P

SB_UK
09-03-14, 03:03 PM
Severe inherited (biological) hypersensitive affective temperament + eustressful experiences = ?

Severe inherited (biological) hypersensitive affective temperament + distressful experiences = ?

P

No adhd (defined as disorder) in eustress.

Just wonder whether any ADDer can operate in an antisocial environment - not just a case of 'suck it up buttercup' but there's a basic flaw which prevents ADDer prime directive from being expressed in the presence of those who pursue their own interests at the necessary expense of others.

It's a confounder at the level of mind.

mildadhd
09-03-14, 03:05 PM
Mild inherited (biological) hypersensitive affective temperament + severe distressful experiences = ?




P

SB_UK
09-03-14, 03:10 PM
The core problem as far as I can see is the ADDer motivation to do something useful.

Positive for the species - to make life better for future generations.

'To make a world worth living in'.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pkVLqSaahk

Can't do that whilst the reward system of self necessitating suffering of others is in ascendancy.

The thing that really hurts is that reward system of self necessitating suffering of others when considered by mind - finds its own motivation does not pass logical scrutiny.
There's too many men making too many problems.
Human beings create further problems in the future through attempting (and failing) to solve problems of the present

SB_UK
09-03-14, 03:12 PM
Mild inherited (biological) hypersensitive affective temperament + severe distressful experiences = ?
P

Chronic distress (low -> high) results in Low to High level ADHD (stress mediated disintegration of the body/mind).

Chronic stress mediated life which amplifies (low to high) with mind.

It's not possible to hide from one's own mind - and as it gets better (more connected) there's no returning to the 'good' old days when 'anything' went ie one finds one's own mind holds one to a higher (a moral) standard of living.

mildadhd
09-03-14, 03:14 PM
No adhd (defined as disorder) in eustress.

Just wonder whether any ADDer can operate in an antisocial environment - not just a case of 'suck it up buttercup' but there's a basic flaw which prevents ADDer prime directive from being expressed in the presence of those who pursue their own interests at the necessary expense of others.

It's a confounder at the level of mind.


What if ADHD was defined as an impairment, (in all cases), and in the case of a person born with a severe hypersensitive affective temperament + eustressful experiences?

Example

Like a person who is born with a seeing impairment, but also may be able to hear "more".



P

Lunacie
09-03-14, 03:21 PM
What if ADHD was defined as impairment, in the case of a person born with a severe hypersensitive affective temperament + eustressful experiences?

Example

Like a person who is born seeing impaired, but may be able to hear "more".



P

A person who is born blind or loses their sight may compensate by paying more attention to sounds and smells (other senses).
Those other senses are not impaired in the same way their eyes have been.

A person who is born with ADHD may not be able to compensate so well ...
as the part of the brain that causes the impairment also prevents paying more attention in other ways.

SB_UK
09-03-14, 03:23 PM
I think that chronic distress (high) in anybody (regardless of inherited predisposition) would lead to the disorder that we call ADHD.

ADDers are just more 'sensitive' - and so react more easily.

What is critical - to allow the reward system to operate in a way throughout life that ADDer gets reward.

How does an ADDer get reward ?
autonomy
mastery
purpose

(The suprising truth of what motivates us, Daniel Pink)

But that's not ADDer specific ?

Are ADDers that different from nonADDers ?

I think that the sole difference is that the choice of reward system to nonADDers is not offered to ADDers - and so ADDers are predisposed to walking the 'right' way.

SB_UK
09-03-14, 03:30 PM
What if ADHD was defined as an impairment, (in all cases), and in the case of a person born with a severe hypersensitive affective temperament + eustressful experiences?

Example

Like a person who is born with a seeing impairment, but also may be able to hear "more".

P

As long as hearing more confers greater evolutionary fitness on the type - then that's fine.

If we're predisposed to aerobic metabolism and away from anaerobic metabolism - then the trade-off is that we'll be less prone to heavy musculature which could be considered a 'loss'
- but what is gained is the tremendous [survival] advantages from seeing the transition of carb as fuel to fat as fuel through.

Wonderfully described here - not entirely related but love this line.
It is a testament to Nature that she turned something that may seem so bad (no food for days, running from a bear, etc.) into something that can be so beneficial for our health.http://www.cavemandoctor.com/2012/04/06/autophagy-turning-stress-into-health/

SB_UK
09-03-14, 03:37 PM
If an ADDer is somewhere between hyperfocus (happy!) and procrastination (do I have to!) - then the goal needs to be to place ADDer into wherever the ADDer (hyperfocus) would like to spend their time because of the pleasure of being there.
If you have to take medication to do something - you don't really want to do it.

We may have no choice - but the mind isn't open to a revolver held to its lower cousin - the brain.

IE if it makes no sense - the mind isn't at liberty to sanction it.
If it's immoral - the mind cannot accept it.

The sole problem is whether the mind knows it makes no sense, knows if it's immoral
- and back around we come to the problem of a molecular education and - the absence of a big picture.

We all need to know it all sufficiently for morality to form - otherwise we're a raft in the middle of an ocean without a map.

SB_UK
09-03-14, 03:45 PM
The problem of what is and what isn't ADHD can only be solved by stating what it is.

As far as I can see it's a new type with a new (fixed) reward system.

As you'd expect from an (enforcedly) social organism.

Social organisms don't have the right to choose to become lawyers.

The lawyer (sophist) references a type of mind vs Socrates which is incomplete ie Socrates' trick of reflecting the sophist's illogic back at them to trip them up ... ... the mind forms around about now (thanks to the major scientific findings of the 20th century) ... ... leaving our only possibility as a rational/moral world for us all - and for future generations to have MORE fun in.

What's interesting is that the evolutionary process which thinks only of the future has altered our emphasis from us in the now - to it (the products of evolution) in the future ie that the evolutionary process has placed its own core imperative into the minds of man.

A world of increasing informational entropy.

Or more simply as much fun for all.
Increasing the amount of fun from generation to generation - so future generations have a better life.
Expression of stable creativity ie generating something that will stand the test of time.

For the most part - this is to be found in (virtual) art.

Real world stuff (as Venice sinks back under water) just crumbles.

mildadhd
09-03-14, 04:10 PM
..The existence of sensitive people is an advantage for humankind because it is this group that best expresses humanity's creative urges and needs.

Through their instinctual responses the world is best interpreted.

Under normal circumstances, they are artists or artisans, seekers, inventors. shamans, poets, prophets.

There would be valid and powerful evolutionary reasons for the survival of genetic material coding for sensitivity.

It is not diseases that are being inherited but a trait of intrinsic survival value to human beings.

Sensitivity is transmuted into suffering and disorders only when the world is unable to heed the exquisitely tuned physiological and psychic responses of the sensitive individual.


Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", P 62.




i!i

mildadhd
09-03-14, 04:21 PM
A person who is born blind or loses their sight may compensate by paying more attention to sounds and smells (other senses).
Those other senses are not impaired in the same way their eyes have been.

A person who is born with ADHD may not be able to compensate so well ...
as the part of the brain that causes the impairment also prevents paying more attention in other ways.


I feel like I have some different "skills", than a person with a less sensitive more robust affective temperament.




P

Flory
09-03-14, 07:03 PM
I think measuring relative impairment against a non ADHD affected group with similar background, age and lifestyle is definitely an important factor.

Say for example you've got somebody that has achieved well academically versus somebody who didn't make it through high school but both with ADHD it's hard to draw a comparison ....

Myself personally I've come from a family of academic achievers both of my brothers doing very well in higher education we were all raised the same yet I had a completely different experience as a result of my impairments

I think sometimes people look at single symptoms more than they look at the frequency of and the effect of/impairment, at least as far as the good old self diagnosis goes

mildadhd
09-04-14, 02:59 AM
I think the present age/stage of development of the person being considered, seems extremely important to specify.

Sometimes when people disagree about a topic, there is a possibility they are both right but are discussing the development during different levels of control, that mature during different ages/stages of development.

If I understand correctly.

An inherited hypersensitive temperament would exist at birth (or before), during maturity of the basic primary level of control #1, before more complex and diverse, learning (level of control #2) and awareness (level of control #3) mature.

Common primary emotional affects(instinctual feelings) endophenotypes among younger children with an inherited hypersensitive ADHD temperament may be much easier to recognize before more complex, more diverse, multiple possible experiences involved in the development of levels of control #2 and #3 complicate things?

Layman, Please leave room for error and learning on my part.


Levels of Control in Brain Emotional-Affective
State controls (#1) and information Processing (#2 & #3)


3. Tertiary Affects and Neo-cortical "Awareness" Functions.

i) Cognitive Execution Functions: Thoughts & Planning (Frontal cortex)

ii) Emotional Ruminations & Regulations (Medial Frontal Regions)

iii) "Free-will" (Higher Working-Memory functions-Intention-to-Act)


2. Secondary-Process Emotions(Learning via Basal Ganglia)

i) Classical Conditioning (e.g. FEAR via basolateral & central amygdala)

ii) Instrumental & Operant Conditioning (SEEKING via Nucleus Accumbens)

iii) Behavioral & Emotional Habits (Largely unconscious-Dorsal Straitum)


1. Primary-Process, Basic-Primordial Affects (sub-neocortical)

i) Emotional Affects (Emotion Action Systems; Intentions-In-Actions)

ii) Homeostatic Affects (Brain-body Interoceptors: Hunger, Thirst, etc.)

iii) Sensory Affects (Exteroceptive-Sensory triggered pleasurable and unpleasurable/disgusting feelings)



Figure 1.4 A summary of the global levels of control within the brain: (1) Three general types of affects, (2) three types of basic learning mechanisms, and (3) three representative awareness functions of the neocortex (which relies completely on loops down through the basal ganglia to the thalamus, looping back to the neocortex before it can fully elaborate both thoughts and behavior).

Quote from, Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", (Chapter: Ancestral Passions) (Figure 1.4) Page 10.

ruby.149.42
09-04-14, 04:06 AM
Great thread P.

hypersensitive + eustressful experience -> no ADHD (defined as disorder)
hypersensitive + distressful spectrum low to high -> ADHD (low to high debilitating)

See my money is firmly on this one. But if that's the case that would be a G*E effect, no? But you don't like G*E studies. For those of us with less scientific knowledge can you go easy and explain why this wouldn't be a G*E effect?

SB_UK
09-04-14, 02:17 PM
Great thread P.



See my money is firmly on this one. But if that's the case that would be a G*E effect, no? But you don't like G*E studies. For those of us with less scientific knowledge can you go easy and explain why this wouldn't be a G*E effect?

Take a sports car, a tractor and a moped and put them on bumpy roads - the tractor 'd do well, maybe the moped next and the sports car last.

The problem with gene (a car part) x environment is that we have to look at the whole (the car) and not the car part in combination with the environment.

So - we might find that the big wheel of a tractor (a gene) x environment (bumpy road) gives us a connection - but the point I'm trying to make is that we need to take the genome as a whole (greater than the sum of its parts) in differing environments - to make sense of this tractor/moped/sportscar performance example.

SB_UK
09-04-14, 02:44 PM
Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", P 62.




i!i

perfect quote !!

ruby.149.42
09-04-14, 08:16 PM
What is this sensitivity ?

Well - definitely senses ie loud noise
Definitely - blood glucose levels ie tendency to fat deposition
Also definitely to morality - using the mind argument ie to logically consistent with species wellbeing
Sensitivity to other people - don't like seeing people in trouble


Didn't see all these ones before. Very interested in the sensitivities / effects / causes.

Sound: I am very sensitive to some loud sounds BUT spent decades dancing on podiums to rave / trance music which was so loud my ears now ring. BUT wonder if that one (as we've discussed elsewhere) was not only tolerable but massively enjoyable because I was in sync with the beat .. or the beat was in sync with me. I've never tried, but reckon if you put me at volumes in a death metal concert, I would pass out.

Blood glucose: I don't think so. I'm tall and skinny although have put on weight when very depressed once but I reckon I have a very fast metabolism .. and in fact have always thought of myself and ADHDers as having fast internal clock speed hence not being able to sit still. I still have a big ? over the sugaring up kids debate as research I've read always suggested that this was an expectancy effect on parents. My little girl bounces off the walls naturally and if short of food will melt-down. But I've never seen her go above her normal range after binging on sugar (not that she has often but birthday parties are mostly sugar festivals these days). I may have gone off on a tangent here and be referring to other things.

Morality:yes, for me this is a big one and this one does not make life easy out in the real world. But I'm really curious as to how you put this down on the same axis as the other sensitivities as this seems intuitively to me to be something else entirely. It's also something that I just don't see as very common on these forums. Some yes, but majority - no way. Maybe this is a conversation for another thread but I'm really interested in this. It's something to do with enquiring nature of mind and going against the status quo. It involves more global thinking, systems awareness, all sorts of things .. but sensitivity?

Other people's hurts: yes, absolutely and always. Was always the kid bringing the broken animals and people home and championing the underdog. That being said, Gabor Mate's theory on this is different. He reckons that the theory that ADHDers are more empathic isn't strictly true and that what we are doing instead of empathising, is we're actually identifying with other people's hurts. i.e., unconscious implicit memories of our own childhood trauma is activated when we see others hurting (P you may have access to this quote, I can't pull them out as quickly as you!). Not sure if this fits in with my complete inability to watch any sort of gore, violence, fighting etc in movies - has always brought out the strongest visceral response in me.


and the big one:

Sensitivity to stress: as soon as I get overloaded with stress I feel everything in my body starting to restrict and shutdown. I become more emotionally reactive, can't think straight, and just bounce around inefficiently like a pinball. For me I reckon there's interesting tie in's here with Schore etc's work and P this really fits in with you Attachment thread. But if we weren't taught by PCG's in infancy to properly regulate physiological responses to stress (which apart from feeding us and giving us a home, is their primary purpose), we've got to be prime candidates for this aspect of ADHD.

Peripheral - where do you fit on these sensitivities ? Do you identify with these? Others?

But there's also the chance that we've some telepathic connection - it's bizarre last 2 lectures I've been to - answers that I don't really know come to mind when I'm zoning out - answers which I wouldn't come up with -

..

The telepathic communication thing is a bit iffy - but I'm pretty sure there's something there.



I think there's 2 things there.

1) The answers coming to you when zoning out is when you're thinking has moved into "diffuse mode". I've just finished a coursera course called Learning 2 Learn (https://class.coursera.org/learning-001) and they talk about that a great deal. They say that most of our best creative thinking takes place when we're in that mode which is why often problems are solved when we're zoned out or going for a run etc. Apparently Salvidor Dali and Edison both had a cool way of forcing open access to it, which was after having done some hard focussed work, they would sit in their chairs with their something metal in their hand (keys and ball bearings for the respective 2), and then they would close their eyes as though preparing for a nap. As soon as they started drifting off, the metal item would fall to the floor which would wake them up and they'd have instant access to this incredibly productive mode. This course was great actually and they said a couple of times that people with ADHD can be fantastic thinkers because they spend so much time zoned out in the diffuse mode.

2) The telepathy thing I'm also sure that there's something there but it's something to do with rhythm, connection, timing. I think it could be to do with some sort of heart coherence. I have been feeling this more and more but can't put into words. Peripheral I reckon it lies somewhere in that Mate quote you've put in:

Under normal circumstances, they are artists or artisans, seekers, inventors. shamans, poets, prophets.

ruby.149.42
09-04-14, 08:17 PM
Sometimes when people disagree about a topic, there is a possibility they are both right but are discussing the development during different levels of control, that mature during different ages/stages of development.


Double thumbs up from me on this one.

ruby.149.42
09-04-14, 08:22 PM
hypersensitive + eustressful experience -> no ADHD (defined as disorder)
hypersensitive + distressful spectrum low to high -> ADHD (low to high debilitating)

Meant to also say - I reckon hypersensitive + eustressful not only means no ADHD, but also, great potential for great wisdom / successful visionary healer / leader.

I reckon the Gandhi's, Mother Theresa's, Dan Siegel's etc of this world are probably good examples of these. Maybe even the Jesus's and Buddha's of this world .. although don't know much about historical accuracy of those fellows.

ruby.149.42
09-04-14, 09:04 PM
Take a sports car, a tractor and a moped and put them on bumpy roads - the tractor 'd do well, maybe the moped next and the sports car last.

The problem with gene (a car part) x environment is that we have to look at the whole (the car) and not the car part in combination with the environment.

So - we might find that the big wheel of a tractor (a gene) x environment (bumpy road) gives us a connection - but the point I'm trying to make is that we need to take the genome as a whole (greater than the sum of its parts) in differing environments - to make sense of this tractor/moped/sportscar performance example.

Brilliant - thank you for the 101 version - I like the metaphor. More questions, and if you can please keep it simple as I really find the genetic world incredibly tricky but also want to understand it better.

So my understanding was that in terms of dev psych, most genetic effects work in terms of + or - to probabilities (other than few e.g., direct effects e.g., Downs etc). So when we're talking probablistic, I get they we've moved way beyond single-gene-causes-phenomena style thinking but aren't we moving into looking at networks / sets of genes? Didn't they e.g., recently find specific gene networks involved in ASD? Is that the direction this is all moving? So why would there not be networks of genes involved in ADHD stress sensitivity with each conferring risk / resilience ? Couldn't that explain why the whole ADHD thing is not boolean (like, e.g., Downs), but rather on a sliding scale?

I've just tried to extend this out into your metaphor but getting tied up in knots. :scratch::confused:

SB_UK
09-05-14, 04:02 PM
quote=ruby.149.42;1677911]Didn't see all these ones before. Very interested in the sensitivities / effects / causes.

Sound: I am very sensitive to some loud sounds BUT spent decades dancing on podiums to rave / trance music which was so loud my ears now ring. BUT wonder if that one (as we've discussed elsewhere) was not only tolerable but massively enjoyable because I was in sync with the beat .. or the beat was in sync with me. I've never tried, but reckon if you put me at volumes in a death metal concert, I would pass out.

ADDED - You're right - it's not loud music - for me personally it's 'bangs' ie I won't go anywhere near a firework display, can't stand the sound of a balloon bursting (won't allow the kids to have them), the sound of any form of gun even the crop scaring guns in a field - I'm suggesting that there's real pain in the 'bang' type of noise - but loud music - absolutely no problems.

Blood glucose: I don't think so. I'm tall and skinny although have put on weight when very depressed once but I reckon I have a very fast metabolism .. and in fact have always thought of myself and ADHDers as having fast internal clock speed hence not being able to sit still. I still have a big ? over the sugaring up kids debate as research I've read always suggested that this was an expectancy effect on parents. My little girl bounces off the walls naturally and if short of food will melt-down. But I've never seen her go above her normal range after binging on sugar (not that she has often but birthday parties are mostly sugar festivals these days). I may have gone off on a tangent here and be referring to other things.

ADDED - problem issue here is that if we're prone to stress - then we're prone to stress relief which for most takes the form of comfort eating high carb/high fat foods leading to blood glucose / obesity / T2D issues ... ... so ... ... we've stress sensitivity leading to stress hormone production mobilizing blood glucose, and eating comfort foods which elevate blood glucose ... ... that's a double whammy.

Morality:yes, for me this is a big one and this one does not make life easy out in the real world. But I'm really curious as to how you put this down on the same axis as the other sensitivities as this seems intuitively to me to be something else entirely. It's also something that I just don't see as very common on these forums. Some yes, but majority - no way. Maybe this is a conversation for another thread but I'm really interested in this. It's something to do with enquiring nature of mind and going against the status quo. It involves more global thinking, systems awareness, all sorts of things .. but sensitivity?

ADDED - sensitivity to the truth or maybe to using words in a very careful way which eliminates doubt. So - standard politician speak which includes NO actual information is (I would suggest) immoral - we'd need a sensitivity to the meaning in words to allow morality to take shape. Tempted to suggest some close relationship between word usage and morality - though that doesn't work - maybe some close relationship between appropriate word usage (given the individual that one finds oneself in conversation with) and effective communication ie not necessarily complicated sentences - even perhaps simple sentences - but where effective communication takes place and the point is effectively relayed.

Other people's hurts: yes, absolutely and always. Was always the kid bringing the broken animals and people home and championing the underdog. That being said, Gabor Mate's theory on this is different. He reckons that the theory that ADHDers are more empathic isn't strictly true and that what we are doing instead of empathising, is we're actually identifying with other people's hurts. i.e., unconscious implicit memories of our own childhood trauma is activated when we see others hurting (P you may have access to this quote, I can't pull them out as quickly as you!). Not sure if this fits in with my complete inability to watch any sort of gore, violence, fighting etc in movies - has always brought out the strongest visceral response in me.

ADDED - I think I'd go for whichever mechanism which means that one can actually feel the pain which another person is feeling. Have to admit that these days I'm left with the absolute certainty that all of those painful ?empathic? moments are of human origin
IE we make the world which creates the problems which we either suffer from or suffer from indirectly through empathy.

and the big one:

Sensitivity to stress: as soon as I get overloaded with stress I feel everything in my body starting to restrict and shutdown. I become more emotionally reactive, can't think straight, and just bounce around inefficiently like a pinball. For me I reckon there's interesting tie in's here with Schore etc's work and P this really fits in with you Attachment thread. But if we weren't taught by PCG's in infancy to properly regulate physiological responses to stress (which apart from feeding us and giving us a home, is their primary purpose), we've got to be prime candidates for this aspect of ADHD.

ADDED - It feels as though we're failing not to be able to over-ride a survival essential aspect. So - how do people live happy lives in a fundamentally rotten world.
'It is not a sign of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society'
You see - I don't think there's anything wrong with us; we're stressed because we should be - and anybody who isn't stressed - isn't human - hasn't a mind.
How can anybody have even a little more than they need - when plenty have a lot less than is required for life ?
This idea (what happens in our society) should melt the minds of anybody with morality.

Peripheral - where do you fit on these sensitivities ? Do you identify with these? Others?

I think there's 2 things there.

1) The answers coming to you when zoning out is when you're thinking has moved into "diffuse mode". I've just finished a coursera course called Learning 2 Learn (https://class.coursera.org/learning-001) and they talk about that a great deal. They say that most of our best creative thinking takes place when we're in that mode which is why often problems are solved when we're zoned out or going for a run etc. Apparently Salvidor Dali and Edison both had a cool way of forcing open access to it, which was after having done some hard focussed work, they would sit in their chairs with their something metal in their hand (keys and ball bearings for the respective 2), and then they would close their eyes as though preparing for a nap. As soon as they started drifting off, the metal item would fall to the floor which would wake them up and they'd have instant access to this incredibly productive mode. This course was great actually and they said a couple of times that people with ADHD can be fantastic thinkers because they spend so much time zoned out in the diffuse mode.

ADDED - excellent comment - 'the diffuse mode' is a nice place to be.
Sometimes I think it's theta EEG (the place between sleep and wake) and sometimes delta EEG (where the mind is silenced). Don't know - certainly when moving there's a place without the chatter which is pleasant.

2) The telepathy thing I'm also sure that there's something there but it's something to do with rhythm, connection, timing. I think it could be to do with some sort of heart coherence. I have been feeling this more and more but can't put into words. Peripheral I reckon it lies somewhere in that Mate quote you've put in:

Under normal circumstances, they are artists or artisans, seekers, inventors. shamans, poets, prophets.[/quote]

ADDED -from the start haven't liked suggesting telepathy.
Why ? Because if everything has been overcomplicated - then the scientific process will prune back the 'story' of human context to such a simple level - that we'll be able to effectively communicate simply using just words.

Will come back to this.

What happens - is that I stop seeing, hearing and everything goes silent - then there's an idea - and it's accompanied by the feeling that it's the right answer. If I think about it later - it's not entirely clear to me why I was so sure it was the right answer at the time. Usually the feeling is much stronger than the feeling of getting the right answer to some small question should be. What I'm trying to get at is that the right answer to the question is neither here nor there - it's plucking the word or idea out of another's mind.

Thinking - ADDer impulsively blurting the answer out in class.

Could be ... ... ... but why would this be a new ADDer level property ? why would this be a property of an enforcedly social species ?

What'd we expect ?
In a monetary based economy somebody gives somebody something and somebody gives something in return.
A bidirectional exchange.
Should we expect a bidirectional exchange ?

Of what ? Information.

Just simple bidirectional exchange of information in ADDer as property of social species ?
Why ? Well we'd need something and this'd work to enforce species-wide collaboration ... ...

So suggestion - that zoning out whilst communicating (written) allows bi-directional communication between 'sensitive' ADDer minds ie our sensitivity is in our :-)

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(aerial)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGjP_nHNkR4

Compatible with the idea that 'the dreamers are waking' --Kate Bush.'Birds of a feather flock together' -- Kate Bush.
There's a reason why Kate Bush stays hidden.

Very ADHD.

SB_UK
09-05-14, 04:10 PM
So - distilling all of that down - just looking at a bidirectional transmission of information in ADDer mindspace - as an emergent property of the new ADD type - Homo neosapiens sapienses.
The mind ceases to appeal.
To attach and then To attune - connecting all people we physically meet (attachment relation) and then communication (attunement relation) -
reward if bidirectional communication takes place.

Nobody lies* in their sleep** :-).

* tells untruths
** that strange mind space we fall into a little too easily

mildadhd
09-05-14, 04:29 PM
Great thread P.

Originally Posted by SB_UK
hypersensitive + eustressful experience -> no ADHD (defined as disorder)
hypersensitive + distressful spectrum low to high -> ADHD (low to high debilitating)

See my money is firmly on this one. But if that's the case that would be a G*E effect, no? But you don't like G*E studies. For those of us with less scientific knowledge can you go easy and explain why this wouldn't be a G*E effect?



Genetic(BrainMind)*Epigenetic(MindBrain)

= (Ancient Ancestral Instinct Experiences*Genetics)*(Genetics* Subjective Experiences)

= (E*G)*(G*E)

= E*G*G*E






ALL OF US GET ANGRY at times, especially when our interests are ignored or thwarted.

Has traditional brain science told us how this emotion is created?

Not yet.

We all get lonely and sad at times.

Had modern neuroscience sought to clarify those aspects of our nature?

We have barely begun to talk about such things, even though great progress has been made in some quarters.

Most of us get great joy from interacting playfully with others; some do not, especially if they are depressed.

Neuroscience has remained largely silent about the nature of joy, while psychology has seen a revolution in the study and discussion of its cognitive derivative, happiness, with few insights into the neural nature of joy.



Just like the many other emotional powers of our minds, all of which emerge from the functions of the brain, traditional neuroscience has had relatively little to tell us about how the intense emotional feelings that we call affects can arise from brain activities.

This is because feelings are subjectively experienced, and some say the traditional third-person measurements of science (i.e., external observation of phenomena) cannot deal effectively with first-person experiences.

We disagree, to the extent that other mammals have evolutionarily related brain systems.

Modern neuroscience is well poised to finally clarify the ways that the mammalian brain generates affective valuations of world events in the form of nonverbal feeling states--or passions of the mind, as some Renaissance scholars would describe them.



This book describes a new scientific discipline called affective neuroscience, which seeks to illuminate how our most powerful emotional feelings--the primal emotional affects--arise from ancient neural networks situated in brain regions below the neocortical "thinking-cap."

The neocortex is an organ that generates complex cognitive abilities as well as culture, and it is definitively important for complex perceptions, learning, and cognitions.

The neocortex is responsible for almost all of the cultural milestones that human beings have been able to achieve.

And neuroscience has also provided an important message--practically all of the psychological specializations within cortex are learned.

None has yet been empirically demonstrated to be an intrinsic, evolutionarily dictated "module".

However, the cortex could achieve nothing without an evolved foundational mind deeper in the brain.

Those ancient neural territories below the neocortex consitute our ancestral mind--the affective mind, which is evolutionarily specialized and that we share with many other animals.

It is "archaeological treasure," for it contains the sources of some of our most powerful feelings.

Those ancient subcortical brain systems are precious, multihued "jewels" for anyone anyone wishing to understand the roots of all the basic values we have ever know and will experience in our lives.

The affects are the foundations upon which the beauty and ugliness of life has been constructed.

And affects also change with experience, but more qualtitatively rather than qualitatively.


This book is an updating and an attempt at popularizing an earlier textbook, Affective Neuroscience: The Foundations of Human and Animal Emotions (Panksepp, 1998a)

This text has garnered wide attention as a major new approach to the science of the emotional mind and has become a source book for clinicians who wish to understand the basic emotions of their clients.

Even though work on kindred animals has been so crucial to the development of affective neuroscience, Jaak Panksepp started his work with an interest primarily in human emotions, especially their disturbances in clinical disorders.

He soon realized that deep neuroscientific understanding could not be acheived without appropriate animal models.

This position has changed somewhat with the emergence of modern brain imaging, but not much if one want to really understand the evolved functional networks of the brain.

It is rather difficult to have intense emotions while lying still within brain scanners that make measurements that cannot tolerate movements.

Still the new evidence obtained with those spectacular human brain-imaging technologies has clarified much about the cognitive aspects of emotion but rather little about the sources of such feelings in the brain.

The primary-process emotions are all connected to movements, and the evidence now indicates that raw emotional feelings arise from the same ancient brain networks that control our instinctual emotional emotional life.

Despite many theories in the field, the facts indicate that these raw emotional feelings arise from the emotional action networks of the brain.




Overall, the topic of emotions is of great interest to practically everyone--from psychiatrists who have to deal with human feelings that have become extreme, to anyone who is curious about those powerful states that govern so much of what we do and who we are in the world.

We hope that what will be discovered between those covers will be of considerable use to many in their quest to understand themselves and others, including fellow animals, and to recognize how much all mammals share in the ways that they emotionally respond to the world.

We suspect that many diverse groups of people will find these perspectives to be especially useful.



-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", (Preface and Acknowledgments)








P

SB_UK
09-05-14, 04:35 PM
What'd we expect ?
In a monetary based economy somebody gives somebody something and somebody gives something in return.
A bidirectional exchange.
Should we expect a bidirectional exchange ?

Of what ? Information.


Is Information another word for 'love' ?.
We've a hard definition for love which just means in resonance with a fundamental substrate which seals each evolutionary layer together and prevents the layer being peeled back.

Hmmm ... ... 'is this love, is this love, is this love ?' by Bob Marley is now playing in my head - and I've never listened to that song before, never played it on Youtube, don't even know the title ... ... very strange especially since Peripheral is rather taken with Bob M.

mildadhd
09-05-14, 07:06 PM
..Is this love, (Love), is this love, (love), is this love that I [SB_UK] am feeling?

Is this love, (Love), is this love, (love,) is this love, is this love that I [SB_UK] am feeling?..

I [SB_UK] wanna know, wanna know, wanna know now..


-Bob Marley and the Wailers, "Is This Love"




i!i i!i i!i

mildadhd
09-05-14, 09:58 PM
SUPPERTIME.

THE EIGHT-year-old daughters is taking her time leaving her toy or book or reveries.

"Hurry up. We want to eat," the father says, tense with hunger and work overload.

The daughter covers her ears.

"Don't yell at me," she complains.


"I'm not yelling," the man answers, this time hearing himself raise his voice.

The child's face turns into a picture of pain and despair.

"Mommy, Daddy's being mean to me," she cries.

If the decibel count in that kitchen had been measured when the father first instructed his daughter to hurry, it would not have registered at levels most people would define as yelling.

The daughter's reaction, however, is genuine.

She picks up, senses, experiences the tension in the father's voice, the edge of controlled impatience and frustration.

That is what is translated in her brain as "yelling."

She is feeling exactly the same fear and outrage as another child would if shouted at in an angry manner.

It is a matter of sensitivity, of the degree of reactivity to the environment.

This child is emotionally hypersensitive.



The derivation of sensitivity is from the Latin word sensir, "to feel".

Degrees of sensitivity reflect degrees of feeling.

Of the various Oxford Dictionary definitions of sensitive, it will be useful to keep three in mind.

Each is exquisitely apt as a description of the ADD child:

1.Very open to or acutely affected by external stimuli or mental impressions.

2.Easily offended, or emotionally hurt.

3. (As of an instrument) responsive to or recording small changes.

The word has another connotation, that of being empathetic, respectful of other people's feelings.

The two meanings may coexist in the same individual, but not in every case.

Some of the most sensitive people in terms of how they react may be the least mindful of the feelings of others.



Some human beings are hyperreactive.

A relatively negligible stimulus, or what to other people would seem negligible sets off in them an intense reaction.

When this happens in response to, physical stimuli, we say the person is allergic.

Someone allergic to, say, bee venom may choke, wheeze and gasp for air when stung.

The small airways in the lungs may go into spasm, tissues in the throat may swell, the heartbeat may become irregular.

His life may be in peril.

The nonallergic person, had she been stung by the same bee, would experience no more than a momentary pain, a welt, an irritating itch.

Was it the bee sting that sent the first victim into physiological crisis?

Not directly.

It was his own physiological responses that brought him close to death.

More accurately, it was the combination of stimulus and reaction.

The precise medical term for an allergy, for this hyperreactivity, is hypersensitivity.



People with ADD are hypersensitive.

That is not a fault or a weakness of theirs, it is how they where born.

It is their inborn temperament.

That, primarily is what is hereditary about ADD.

Genetic inheritance by itself cannot account for the presence of ADD features in people, but heredity can make it far more likely that these features will emerge in a given individual, depending on circumstances.

It is sensitivity, not a disorder, that is transmitted through heredity.

In most cases, ADD is caused by the impact of the environment on particularly sensitive infants.


Sensitivity is the reason why allergies are more common among ADD children than in the rest of the population.

It is well known, and borne out again and again in clinical practice, that children with ADD are more likely than their non-ADD-counterparts to have a history of frequent colds, upper respiratory infections, ear infections, asthma, eczema and allergies, a fact interpreted by some as evidence that ADD is due to allergies, a fact interpreted by some as evidence that ADD is due to allergies.

Although the flare-up of allergies can certainly aggravate ADD symptoms, the one does not cause the other.

They both are expressions of the same underlying inborn trait: sensitivity.

Since emotionally hypersensitive reactions are no less physiological than the body's allergic responses to physical substances, we may say truthfully that people with ADD have emotional allergies.

Almost any parent with an ADD child, or any adult living with an ADD spouse, will have noticed in the ADD person a touchiness, a "thin skin".

People with ADD are forever told that they are "too sensitive" or that they should stop being "so touchy."

One might as well advise a child with hay fever to stop being "so allergic."

With its usual wisdom, everyday language has found an accurate description of hypersensitivity when it speaks of someone having a thin skin.

If one had an area on one's thigh with part of the epidermis destroyed by, say, scalding hot water, one literally would have a thin skin: the nerve endings would be closer to the surface.

A slight gust of air might cause a highly unpleasant sensation, even pain, whereas surfaces with full-thickness skin would feel little or nothing.

The emotionally sensitive person lives, as it were, with the nerve endings that send emotional stimuli to the brain centers very close to the surface.

Like the exposed nerve endings in scalded skin, they are very easily irritated.

Hence, my daughter's complaint that I was yelling.

Of course, I was the short-tempered father in the anecdote.

The suppertime set-to used to be familiar in our home.



Parents, teachers and doctors may doubt a child's reports of his sensations.

Some hypersensitive children, feeling physical pain or discomfort, will express what to others may seem an excessive and exaggerated distress.

They are accused of malingering or playacting or of looking for attention.

In fact, there is no dissimulation in their behavior around pain or discomfort, only, in a phrase of Friedrich Nietzsche's, "a refined susceptibility to pain."

Sensitivity is affected by emotional states.

People's pain tolerance is lower when they feel anxious or depressed, partly because of changes in stress hormone levels and in the levels of endorphins, the body's innate painkillers.


Sensitive children come to be called "difficult" because adults have trouble understanding their temperament and because parenting methods that work with other children are frustratingly inadequate with this group.

Like the related phrase "terrible twos," "difficult child" shows grown-up bias.

In the child's experience, it is the adult who is ornery.

Were children the arbiters of language, we would hear of the "difficult parent" and the "terrible thirties."

Physiological differences in the human nervous system help explain differences in levels of emotional reactivity from one child to the other.

In some children, the nervous system is always in a state of hair-trigger alert.

Researchers at the University of Washington, Seattle, measured the electrical activity of an important nerve, the vagus nerve, in five-month-old babies.(*1)

(The vagus connects the central nervous system with the heart, lungs and the stomach.)

Infants with a higher baseline "tone" in the vagus nerve were also "more emotionally reactive to both positive and mildly stressful stimuli."

These same infants at fourteen months were more reactive to maternal separation.


Like hypersensitive instruments, sensitive children register and record even minute changes in their emotional environment.

It is not a matter of choice for them; their nervous systems react.

It is as if they had invisible antennae projecting in every direction, picking up and conducting into their bodies and their minds the psychic emanations around them.

They may have no conscious knowledge of this, any more than an instrument is consciously aware of what measurements it is registering.

Unlike instruments, however, the sensory equipment of human beings is not easily shut off.

My wife and I learned to recognize our daughter's moods and behaviors as real-time, instantaneous computer printout's of the psychological atmosphere in our home.

If we wanted to know how we were doing as individuals or as a couple, we needed only check the facial expressions and emotional responses of our daughter.

What was recorded there did not always reassure us.

Abdominal cramps in sensitive children are often clues to unresolved tensions in the family environment.

They are common and all to frequently misinterpreted.

These are the children who go pale with "inexplicable" tummy aches and are dragged from doctor to doctor, from clinic to emergency ward, from specialist to specialist, subjected to examinations, tests, X-rays and over and over again are pronounced "perfectly healthy."

The parents are assured there is no reason for the pain.

There is a reason.

Their child's body is a barometer for the stresses on the whole family system, his symptoms the marking on a minutely calibrated instrument.



Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", (Chapter: Emotional Allergies), P 57-61.




i!i i!i i!i

ruby.149.42
09-06-14, 08:39 AM
Thanks for those Mate quotes P. They give me goosebumps yet again, as does so much of his writing. I'm still not sure why there's not more acknowledgement around these traps of his work. There's only 2 possibilities as I see it (but certainly open to other interpretations): 1) that there are multiple causal pathways to ADHD and this is just one .. which only accounts for a small minority of ADHD cases and/or 2) there's a ton of folk who are too defended (DON'T blame my mum) against the possibility that less than adequate caregiving on their parents part was the straw that broke the camels back in a probabalistic ADHD outcome on a biologically predisposed, stress-sensitivity (??genetically?? still waiting for your wisdom on this one if you get a tic SB - if not genetic, what would we call it?). If 2, I think if we can take a more, cultural, systemic view of how this came about (for example, parenting lore for much of this century involved child-rearing practices which specifically utilised threats to attachment security to try and control behaviour (CIO / controlled crying / time-outs / naughty steps etc). Possibly handleable by less stress-sensitive kids but to whatever tempermental ooze my clan are cast in .. disastrous! So it's not necessarily about "bad parenting" .. can be very sensible parents deliberately using strategies of the current time which were no good for our type. I think this is the problem - so many people want a genes or environment answer or e.g., a routine vs AP parenting style and can't cope with any murkiness aka it depends.

My money is on the 2nd option but I know that's not the party line around these traps (apart from a few of you). I still scratch my head and wonder if this very stress sensitivity raised in an environment where there were threats to attachment, results in defence mechanisms which blinker against even entertaining this idea?

ruby.149.42
09-06-14, 08:44 AM
What'd we expect ?
In a monetary based economy somebody gives somebody something and somebody gives something in return.
A bidirectional exchange.
Should we expect a bidirectional exchange ?

Of what ? Information.

Just simple bidirectional exchange of information in ADDer as property of social species ?
Why ? Well we'd need something and this'd work to enforce species-wide collaboration ... ...

So suggestion - that zoning out whilst communicating (written) allows bi-directional communication between 'sensitive' ADDer minds ie our sensitivity is in our :-)

http://www.addforums.com/forums/data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxQSEBUUEhQUFBAQFBYVFBQUFBAUFBUYFBQWFhcUFB QYHCggGBslGxQVITEhJSkrLi4uFx8zODMsNygtLisBCgoKDgwO GBAQFywcHBwrLDctLCwsKywsLCwrLSwsLCssLCwsKyw3LCw3LC wsLCwsNyw3LDcsLCwsLDQsLCstLP/AABEIAJAAkAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAACAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAADBAECBQYAB//EAD4QAAIBAgIGBwYCCQUBAAAAAAECAAMREiEEBRMxQZEGUVJhc bHRFCIjcoGhMkIVMzRTYpKywfAWQ4Ki4Qf/xAAYAQADAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBP/EAB8RAQEBAQACAwADAAAAAAAAAAABEQIhMQMSQRMjUf/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8A4jStKNKjTKqhLWU4gOrKRi0y5Hs4ut7jZ Z5HCbdeZgtd/s1LxH9JgLk2JZyL5XeucsrjfOfmS+3V+HR7ad1Ab7fqxvyy+4j eo65qB9oq4qb4clUeP3ExmW28tuubtV5/iuer6TS6JG61erGPuJPckhxtikvZXkPSW2S9leS+ksBLATDTDN JeyvIek9sl7K8h6QlpIENGKbFeyvJfSeFFeyvIekJhkgQ0w9iv ZXkvpJFJeyv8q+kKFkhItAWyXsryHpLCivZXkPSFCywWLTwIUV 7K8h6QmwXsryHpL2kiK0YFsF7K8h6SdivZXkvpCgSQItDh9d/stL5l/pMy6dcWCqhPC10vzw+M6uhoiVKKBxiAAI8bSRqSh+7X7zqnySe ET05N9JsMLIcxnmuf/WbfQ0+7V+ZfIzUXUtD90sb0XQkp3wKFvvtxtuk9/JLMMULJCy4EsBMTDwycMJglgkNNlUtb0yisThxDFbeQM8zyIlv 0rTDsrZWC2O8NiFxYcICvpFGnVqK1NcKKlsKgsxYkEW/l5wraZSxYmSwIWxKjGTjKXGeYFt2/KXkI5oelLVDYfymx5XB+sbwxfVVMbIMFVS+ZCiwyJAjiyKamGT aGv1iRYSQFaRaEIkWgFQJIEsBJAiDB1ePhJ8o8o2sDq2n8JPlH lHVSX1fJczwqFl1SEFOESnJ08DFOXFKM06IPGH9mFt8n7HhL2c ydiYe1pZahhoIvoSE3KgkcbZ3yNwfoOUq2r6ZtdFIHdf8ANiy+ pJ+s0GPdKBZX2pYFTTCAAAAOA78z95NoXDJAi08DAnrQwSW2cW jC9pGCMbKVKRaASJWHKymGPSYmq3GxT5R5R9GE5LQdOYU1H8I8 o9Q1meImnXFPn06RSJcTEXWq2zFjL6DranUF1bdvveRearw2pZ TMirrKmv8AuJfvYDf3QR1koaxrLv3XF7xfWjw3ZdZmjSnysAQe vIyz6wKkBlsOMnKMO1aoW1/zMF5yx/z/AMnPdI9cKtNDkSlWmxUEXKq1zbq3b5xOtNa1K9U1GJFiSgBPuD qHUch4zbj4b0m3H1iWQTE6L6wapoqtUOJgWUnicJsCe+a9LS0J 3gZgZ5ZngL8Zl1LLijtOnDU6N+ELoi3OU6TR9XqBc7yOUOOOu/SOu5z7crUpxaok6HWOhhZkV5HUvPs5dIsJQwzGDJhKeOR0fS6K Uqe0ZVLLlfuEW07pHSUWpAOeuxCiaGr9PQUkuRcKOF+Erp1HR6 w96wbgwAB8Jv43zK0/PFKUtbLU0Ws5ChkBAA43UZ8zFugtUDaqxA/ARf8A5AzSFGlT0erTViRUBP1w2HkIl0IqhRVJNicAz7sXrK2fX rIn9jmtaaQKlao4Husxw+G4fYCJkd019caNas+FTgLXWwNs88u ZETbR3BsUa5NgLHPwnRzZjPHS9Dteqt6ddgABdHbu3p3zrNYaY iUnckEIpNr77bv7TG6Iaq2F3f8AWuLAcFXfbxJ8p0GmVFKMrn3 WBU552I3+M4vksvexrz6fH6rlmLH8TEknvMrHtL0F6TEMDYG2K 2R6jeLmd8rLHadCdNRdGKu6qQ7GxNjY2z84j09rqxoqhDD32Ns 8/dA/vNroN7uiE3tiqMfIf2iPTag1Y0igLsuJSAL/AIipHkZyc3+3V54O9COlrM4o1t4X3alznh3q/fbjNXWn/wBBbHpVEYQtKkopNndqgZSb93d3RXol0dXR/iMcVci3cl94XrjWt+jKsdJqqTj0ikFw2zDYhdwfADlD+Tnnu4z vPhuf6mp1aC12ZVVkxMCfw9oc78pjaF0kpVa9WiWVdmfhtfKou EYj4g8JuUaK0qa01HuIoUeA4274jomgJSq1aqj4ldgWJtlYWwr 3bzML1zd1fMxkaF0moVKD1ScJpAs9P8wHC3XeFXXmjts7VB8Yk KLHeMiG6jc2jujaupU6Joqg2TXxDtXNziPHfJNJBhsijZ/g90e78vVFvH5FeXG6t1WWpqetRNGlqccZo6mo/Ap/IvlNBac16+S6mSYyaerVA3Q9DQgosqgDwE0sEsKcz+1/09Z5oEiDGiPfhaawpz2zjlo1mexHtWA4CW/Rwve5j+CWwRaNYevNXK9OmpFwa1MEdYvY+E5PWvRSslW1JC9Nm OAi2Qvkrnha9r90+jtSva/5TcS4Sac/LeYWMfUGqzQ0dabEMwuTbdcm9hNFaQG4Q2GRMrbboeQ24Q4rmA AnrxWAbaSGaCxT2OLDeYwTy+KDJjkMvqVfgU/kXyj+CI6lb4FP5R5TQvH17qZ6VhFEraFQxGgiUhgZJsIAIpKNJ qVLm0FAYkvCI8Tc5wivlGeC1H6oItKNUgxXvDBg4aexwOOTjgM GIlMUhasq5t9YBcNIvnBM8EKxva0JAjU7fAp/KPKaKmZuqT8Cn8i+UeVpXXupnodZfLxi4eEBkgW8E7XlcUgQCx GUrTYSKjRc1uqGKGrLeVK4RLUWvLVlsIBnO94MvCVKZ3jK+/jFSSM7bjxlQDNUtI20FVHVFNpKnIaHtEsdIymWasulSF5NoJWt IZs4uDlIDZxYRjVZ+Cnyr5R1Xmdq1vhIP4V8poIOuHfupnoVGh VMAH5S6PJNcmQDInogHXMB5xioYBnzlQC6Kmd43UH2itKsL2h2 qRUF6qi3VF9n/nAiNM94tUbrytGoGpTzPA953xX2O+7jy7o2UJzz9ZKnut9pQIP oBy6pC6Iw/wA85rKQd/KW+kPtSZeya0GATNc7t0VrrxtYdUcqX//Z(aerial)


Dunno. But you guys seriously blow me away with some of the music you come up with. All my favourites over and over. Too tired to go back over it all but weirds me out slightly . Maybe just because we're all the same age and listened to a lot of the same toons?

The grabbing hands
Grab all they can
All for themselves
After all


It's a competitive world
Everything counts in large amounts

mildadhd
09-06-14, 10:48 AM
Hyperactivity, like other traits associated with ADD, is a normal stage in the maturation of a child.

In attention deficit disorder, stages become states: the individual's psychological development remains static.

Behaviors and emotional patterns remain at a level characteristic of the toddler.

Hyperactivity and its counterpart, the lethargy of many children and adults with ADD, are both exaggerations of body states first experienced during toddlerhood, from about the end of "the second nine months of gestation" to about the age of eighteen months.

They each represent the activity of the autonomic nervous system, which, in ADD, is poorly controlled.

It is helpful to look closer at how that works.



Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", P 131.




StateStage becomes StageState

At birth, emotional affective stages of control are the primary psychological states.


affective becomes affective/cognitive








P

mildadhd
09-06-14, 11:15 AM
"Sensitivity is affected by emotional states." (Dr.Mate)


The emotional affects (genetic instinctual feelings) are present at birth.

The emotional hypersensitive temperament would be present at birth.

The emotional endophenotypes would also be present at birth.







P

Mantaray14
09-06-14, 12:01 PM
Thanks for those Mate quotes P. They give me goosebumps yet again, as does so much of his writing. I'm still not sure why there's not more acknowledgement around these traps of his work. There's only 2 possibilities as I see it (but certainly open to other interpretations): 1) that there are multiple causal pathways to ADHD and this is just one .. which only accounts for a small minority of ADHD cases and/or 2) there's a ton of folk who are too defended (DON'T blame my mum) against the possibility that less than adequate caregiving on their parents part was the straw that broke the camels back in a probabalistic ADHD outcome on a biologically predisposed, stress-sensitivity (??genetically?? still waiting for your wisdom on this one if you get a tic SB - if not genetic, what would we call it?). If 2, I think if we can take a more, cultural, systemic view of how this came about (for example, parenting lore for much of this century involved child-rearing practices which specifically utilised threats to attachment security to try and control behaviour (CIO / controlled crying / time-outs / naughty steps etc). Possibly handleable by less stress-sensitive kids but to whatever tempermental ooze my clan are cast in .. disastrous! So it's not necessarily about "bad parenting" .. can be very sensible parents deliberately using strategies of the current time which were no good for our type. I think this is the problem - so many people want a genes or environment answer or e.g., a routine vs AP parenting style and can't cope with any murkiness aka it depends.

My money is on the 2nd option but I know that's not the party line around these traps (apart from a few of you). I still scratch my head and wonder if this very stress sensitivity raised in an environment where there were threats to attachment, results in defence mechanisms which blinker against even entertaining this idea?

I'm not as well read you guys on attachment theory and genetics etc, but I have been reading Scattered which I found at a local library recently. I found the chapters on diffusing counterwill and wooing the child, extremely helpful. His descriptions of ADD traits are some of the most eloquent you will find and mostly spot on.

But his Attachment Theory, I'm not sure if I'm sold on. My wife (a nurse by trade), is an extremely attuned person (it's an inborn trait with her, I've always said she picked the perfect career). She can walk in the house and tell if the dog needs water just by how she greets her. She is also, not of western culture (born and raised in South America). She breast fed our child for nearly three years, and allowed him to sleep with us, despite my initial objections (The family bed is practiced in many cultures, so I am okay with it now). I was the one who fought for the traditional (Western) methods, but she (Mom), always he "attuned one", gave him what she felt he needed in the form of extra TLC always. I thought she was making him spoiled, but It is only now that I have torn through every book on the subject, that I realized she was right in that respect all along....she was giving him what he needed. Atunement (or attachment) with the Mom, was not an issue in our house...If I had to take a wild stab at it, Mate may be falling prey to his own cultural biases with this theory.

Also, despite a lot of great writing in Mate's book, he also says ADD is inherently a dysfunction (A counter-claim to Hallowells and Hartmann's "Gift" Theory), which needs to be "cured". I'm not sure I'm so sold on this aspect as well. My heart thinks maybe society needs to be cured so the most sensitive of us are not distressed to the point of having to medicated...

mildadhd
09-06-14, 01:26 PM
I'm not as well read you guys on attachment theory and genetics etc, but I have been reading Scattered which I found at a local library recently. I found the chapters on diffusing counterwill and wooing the child, extremely helpful. His descriptions of ADD traits are some of the most eloquent you will find and mostly spot on.

But his Attachment Theory, I'm not sure if I'm sold on. My wife (a nurse by trade), is an extremely attuned person (it's an inborn trait with her, I've always said she picked the perfect career). She can walk in the house and tell if the dog needs water just by how she greets her. She is also, not of western culture (born and raised in South America). She breast fed our child for nearly three years, and allowed him to sleep with us, despite my initial objections (The family bed is practiced in many cultures, so I am okay with it now). I was the one who fought for the traditional (Western) methods, but she (Mom), always he "attuned one", gave him what she felt he needed in the form of extra TLC always. I thought she was making him spoiled, but It is only now that I have torn through every book on the subject, that I realized she was right in that respect all along....she was giving him what he needed. Atunement (or attachment) with the Mom, was not an issue in our house...If I had to take a wild stab at it, Mate may be falling prey to his own cultural biases with this theory.

Also, despite a lot of great writing in Mate's book, he also says ADD is inherently a dysfunction (A counter-claim to Hallowells and Hartmann's "Gift" Theory), which needs to be "cured". I'm not sure I'm so sold on this aspect as well. My heart thinks maybe society needs to be cured so the most sensitive of us are not distressed to the point of having to medicated...


Anything not quoted by Dr.Mate, are my own layman opinions.

Distressed attunement and a hypersenstive temperament are a very important topics to be aware of.


Consider..

Hypersensitive infant who experiences distressed attunement during early development.

Verses

Hypersensitive infant who experiences eustressed attunement during early development.


Distress being a determining factor.

Attachment (theory) is required for emotional healthy development in all people.

ADHD has multiple factors.

Dr.Mate discusses multiple origin and treatment factors, in "Scattered".

Example

PARENTS UNAWARE OF HOW counterwill works may see oppositionality as originating in the child, as a deliberate challenge to their authority or a testing of limits.

A power struggle ensues.

When such conflicts are frequent, counterwill becomes established as the child's automatic response to any sort of parental expectation.

Chronic counterwill will complicate and negate many of his relationships with other people, as will the rebellious stance against all authority and all rules reported by many adults with ADD.

There are ways of counterwill-proofing the relationship, in Gordon Neufeld's phrase, of drawing the sting out of the counterwill dynamic.


1. Keep attachment foremost

The importance of the attachment relationship has been the underlying theme of this book.

Counterwill is greatly increased when the child's attachment to the parents diminishes, and decreases as the attachment bond improves.

The child is much less likely to oppose someone whose proximity and contact she greatly cherishes than someone she is at odds with.


See more, "Scattered" P195.


I also found the chapters on diffusing counterwill and wooing the child, extremely helpful.

Essential.

Once I get a better understanding of the genetic, primary (emotional) levels of control, I am going to study and hope to discuss the epigenetic, secondary (learned) levels of control and tertiary (awareness) levels of control, more.





P

SB_UK
09-06-14, 04:20 PM
The grabbing hands
Grab all they can
All for themselves
After all


It's a competitive world
Everything counts in large amounts

A world of scarcity (where not all people can have everything) <- our world
vs
A world of abundance where each individual has it all <- the rapidly approaching next world

What'd change is an individual's relation to all others.

We'd want others to be the best they can be (in the rapidly approaching next world) - because that way we'd all benefit.

Currently - there is only an emphasis in suppressing our fellow man.
After all


It's a competitive world

mildadhd
09-06-14, 05:37 PM
(Focusing on the primary level emotional states of control, instinctual feelings systems.)

"Sensitivity is affected by emotional states." (Dr.Mate) post #38 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1678148&postcount=38)


Anything not quoted is my own interpretation.

Sensitivity is affected by primary emotional states.




7 Primary Emotional Affective Systems (Basic instinctual feeling systems/states)


SEEKING System, FEAR System, RAGE System, LUST System, CARE System, GRIEF/PANIC System, PLAY System


7 separate genetic hard wired interconnected emotional affects * positive and/or negative emotional experiences * inherited emotionally hypersensitive temperament

"And affects also change with experience, but more qualtitatively rather than qualitatively." (Prof. Panksepp) post #35 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1678096&postcount=35)





P

mildadhd
09-06-14, 06:36 PM
Take a sports car, a tractor and a moped and put them on bumpy roads - the tractor 'd do well, maybe the moped next and the sports car last.

The problem with gene (a car part) x environment is that we have to look at the whole (the car) and not the car part in combination with the environment.

So - we might find that the big wheel of a tractor (a gene) x environment (bumpy road) gives us a connection - but the point I'm trying to make is that we need to take the genome as a whole (greater than the sum of its parts) in differing environments - to make sense of this tractor/moped/sportscar performance example.

Automobiles all work the same primary way, but with many different secondary and tertiary features like size, tires, shape, horn, verbal computer, self-driving technology, etc, depending on the individual owners preferences and accidents along the way.

If one of the automobiles "feels" like it was not working normally, it would be good to know all the separate mechanical systems that make up the automobile as a whole, to best address and troubleshoot the problem.

Example

If the automobile seems to have a sensitive temperament, and won't easily start or running to high, etc.

A mechanic will check the basics first, like the spark plugs, timing, connection/charge on the battery, makes sure there is enough fuel, oil, etc.

It is good to keep maintenance up the automobile, because bumpy roads and sensitive parts, will effect how the car runs/feels as a whole.

Resulting in secondary carmorbidities.






P

mildadhd
09-06-14, 07:26 PM
hypersensitive + eustressful experience -> no ADHD (defined as disorder)
hypersensitive + distressful spectrum low to high -> ADHD (low to high debilitating)

Eustressful experience (SEEKING, LUST, CARE, PLAY) + temperament-->no ADHD (defined as disorder)

Distressful spectrum low to high (FEAR, RAGE, GRIEF/PANIC) + temperament-->ADHD (low to high debilitating)

Opinion?


P

mildadhd
09-06-14, 08:08 PM
(I feel made some mistakes in post #48)

Corrections

Eustressful (SEEKING, FEAR, RAGE, LUST, CARE, GRIEF/PANIC, PLAY) experiences + temperament--> promotes development/balance

Distressful (SEEKING, FEAR, RAGE, LUST, CARE, GRIEF/PANIC, PLAY) experiences, spectrum low to high + temperament--> impairs development/unbalance (low to high debilitating impairment)


Opinion?



P

SB_UK
09-09-14, 09:31 AM
(I feel made some mistakes in post #48)

Corrections

Eustressful (SEEKING, FEAR, RAGE, LUST, CARE, GRIEF/PANIC, PLAY) experiences + temperament--> promotes development/balance

Distressful (SEEKING, FEAR, RAGE, LUST, CARE, GRIEF/PANIC, PLAY) experiences, spectrum low to high + temperament--> impairs development/unbalance (low to high debilitating impairment)


Opinion?



P

I think I see eustressful more from the perspective of becoming more aerobically fit/performing aerobic respiration and distressful as deviating away from aerobic respiration.

So - I think - that I wouldn't phrase eustressful/distressful at the level of emotions but at the level of metabolic biochemistry.

So - the ideal is perfect/optimal aerobic respiration of fat/ketone bodies I think - where SNS activation mobilizes blood glucose and PNS activation 'slows' us down ie takes us in the opposite direction of SNS.

So it's the balance of SNS/PNS I think - which we're after.

An autonomic nervous system balance point ?

From the perspective of the physical body - I think we're only really about aerobic respiration.

SB_UK
09-09-14, 09:45 AM
So - yes - the emotions will activate SNS/PNS and alter respiratory profile
- but it's aerobic respiration / metabolic biochemistry which is the causal / aetiological / root basis to a definition of eustressful/distressful.

So eustressful makes us more aerobically fit / allows us to use our aerobic fitness.
Distressful either shifts us out of an aerobic zone or makes us less efficient aerobic vessels.

Trying to challenge this idea - and the problem I do come up with is athletes who overtrain and die early ... ... there has to be some measure which can be used to define optimal fitness ie somewhere between sedentary and Tour de France doping cyclists who're gonn'a drop dead from one of many ailments.

What is the measure of optimal (but not too much) fitness ?

The Tour de France cyclist will have a 30 heart rate.

I'm thinking type of exercise which gets us fit (interval training - only takes a few minutes eg Tabata regime) and then to spend one's life at as low a heart rate as possible.

So - as a suggestion - there're only so many times your heart is going to beat - goal to get resting heart rate down to as low as possible using exercise which for as short a time as possible elevates it above its basal low resting level - and then to spend as much time as possible at that low resting level.

So - the cyclist 'd undo the great work of their low heart rate by persistently elevating their heart rate?

Difficult - maybe to adopt a certain diet / meditation might be enough without exercise ie fasting / ketosis vegan diet and meditation without exercise.

Would exercise hurt ? Very attracted to endurance aerobic ... ... don't know.

We evolved as persistence hunters ie endurance aerobic - evolution would have wrapped this into our definition maybe made endurance aerobic necessary for optimal health - don't know ... ...

-*-

So - prefer eustressful/distressful to be used as terms which relate to metabolic biochemistry.

SB_UK
09-09-14, 09:48 AM
Waivering

- before thinking about it - fixed number of heart beats ? fixed number of breaths ?

Lunacie
09-09-14, 12:01 PM
Scientists have studied "brain plasticity," the ability of the brain to reorganize neural pathways based on new experiences. It appears that different types of plasticity are dominant at different ages.

Looking back on my childhood, I think the ages of four to seven were critical for my social development. That was when I cried and hurt because I could not make friends. At those times, I could have withdrawn further from people so that I would not get hurt, but I didn't. Fortunately, I had enough satisfactory exchanges with intelligent grown-ups ~ my family and their friends ~ to keep me wanting to interact.

I can easily imagine a child who did not have any satisfying exchanges withdrawing from people entirely. And a kid who withdrew at age five might be very hard to coax out later.

from Look Me In The Eye (a memoir) by John Elder Robison - page 209

This is so much like my own early school years, having difficulty relating to other children and making friends.

In fact, I didn't have any real friends until high school when my dad took me to visit one of his friends who had a daughter in my grade.

Somehow we clicked and were friends even after she went away to college.

And one other girl who seemed even more strange than I felt I was, she probably had Asperger's - we only did what she found interesting.

Like the author, I had older people filling the gap in social relationships.

I found it easier to talk to the parents of the neighborhood children than to play with the kids themselves.

mildadhd
09-09-14, 01:44 PM
So - yes - the emotions will activate SNS/PNS and alter respiratory profile
- but it's aerobic respiration / metabolic biochemistry which is the causal / aetiological / root basis to a definition of eustressful/distressful.

I've been meaning to get copies of any of Hans Selye’s books, to learn about General Adaptation Syndrome, for literally a few of years now.

Pray for me. :)

Emotional distress had a huge impact on my fathers blood sugar homeostasis.

I always felt he hated that type of distress the worst because it was sometimes out of his control.

If I understand Prof. Panksepp correctly, Emotional Affects are also part of the SNS/PNS, and evolved along with Homeostatic Affects and the Sensory Affects?

Example

SEEKING ---Hunting movements
FEAR-------Flight movements
RAGE-------Fight movements


I've been meaning to ask about the research below for some time.

I don't claim to know much about the methods etc.

If I understand correctly, the heart is connected to the SEEKING system? (which is connected to the Orbito Frontal Cortex)

Which is really neat because people often refer emotions to "heart".




Abstract

AIMS:
Tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) is the first and rate-limiting enzyme in catecholamine biosynthesis. Whereas the neuroendocrine roles of cathecolamines postnatally are well known, the presence and function of TH in organogenesis is unclear. The aim of this study was to define the expression of TH during cardiac development and to unravel the role it may play in heart formation.

METHODS AND RESULTS:
We studied TH expression in chick embryos by whole mount in situ hybridization and by quantitative reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction and analysed TH activity by high-performance liquid chromatography. We used gain- and loss-of-function models to characterize the role of TH in early cardiogenesis. We found that TH expression was enriched in the cardiac field of gastrulating chick embryos. By stage 8, TH mRNA was restricted to the splanchnic mesoderm of both endocardial tubes and was subsequently expressed predominantly in the myocardial layer of the atrial segment. Overexpression of TH led to increased atrial myosin heavy chain (AMHC1) and T-box 5 gene (Tbx5) expression in the ventricular region and induced bradyarrhythmia. Similarly, addition of l-3,4-dihydroxyphenylalanine (l-DOPA) or dopamine induced ectopic expression of cardiac transcription factors (cNkx2.5, Tbx5) and AMHC1 as well as sarcomere formation. Conversely, blockage of dopamine biosynthesis and loss of TH activity decreased AMHC1 and Tbx5 expression, whereas exposure to retinoic acid (RA) induced TH expression in parallel to that of AMHC1 and Tbx5. Concordantly, inhibition of endogenous RA synthesis decreased TH expression as well as that of AMHC1 and Tbx5.


CONCLUSION:
TH is expressed in a dynamic pattern during the primitive heart tube formation. TH induces cardiac differentiation in vivo and it is a key regulator of the heart patterning, conferring atriogenic identity.



Tyrosine hydroxylase is expressed during early heart development and is required for cardiac chamber formation (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20525643)




Fun discussion.

Later.


P

SB_UK
09-09-14, 02:38 PM
brilliant stuff - that's it:
“Every stress leaves an indelible scar, and the organism pays for its survival after a stressful situation by becoming a little older.”
https://explorable.com/general-adaptation-syndrome

SB_UK
09-09-14, 02:40 PM
In 1936 Hans Selye created the stress model "General Adaptation Syndrome", which thoroughly explains the stress response and how aging and disease are caused by chronic exposure to stress.

A perfect summary.

And in 1936.

I don't know.

SB_UK
09-09-14, 02:45 PM
Stress -> insensitive to stress -> disease
Stress -> sensitive to stress -> disease

What would represent stress ?
Just blood glucose variability from an unswerving norm (Peripheral - 6mM)

Stress (defn 1) blood glucose elevation
leads to
Stress (defn 2) - oxidative stress from ROS formation.

Just metabolic biochemistry.

SB_UK
09-09-14, 02:54 PM
3. Exhaustion Stage

During this phase, the stress has been persistent for a longer period. The body starts to lose its ability to combat the stressors and reduce their harmful impact because the adaptive energy is all drained out. The exhaustion stage can be referred to as the gate towards burnout or stress overload, which can lead to health problems if not resolved immediately.


Problem is is that you're not human if you're not in the exhaustion stage -- when forced to behave in accordance with a 'profoundly sick society' - a society of materialistic addicts.

SB_UK
09-09-14, 03:23 PM
From:
http://www.strictly-stress-management.com/types_of_stress.html

Chronic eustress - quality of life <- develop
Chronic distress - survival compromised <- eliminate

Quality of life in man with physical, psychological and spiritual components must relate to some physical, psychological and spiritual aspect.

Aspiring to aerobic fitness.
Aspiring to global logical consistency.
~ gives way to~
Spirituality -
A fixed state of bliss

- in which there's no desire for the foods which break us (blood glucose elevation) nor answering any unanswerable question of mind - because the purpose of education was simply to climb the tree of knowleddge of good and evil - ie to get to a specific place of freedom (spiritual state).

SB_UK
09-09-14, 03:32 PM
So - we've avoidance of distress ie a world in which survival essentials are ensured to all (food, shelter, internet education)
- we've a world in which people can engage in eustressful behaviours at the level of the physical (aerobic respiration) and psychological (global logical consistency with wellbeing of people/morality)

-> become better ->

until wisdom is acquired

- whereby spiritual state (your reward 'needs' are met) - and are free to live a life which supports maximal longevity in that state.

SB_UK
09-09-14, 03:42 PM
The goal is simply to transcend the need for reward.

To lose addictive propensity.

To gain freedom from material world attachment by attaining spiritual world synchrony/resonance.

Then whatever you like - your underlying spirit is ready to dissolve back into frame of fundamental substrate when you die - to die and go to Heaven.

The purpose of life is preparation for death.

-*-

addiction <- distress -> eustress -> wisdom -> spiritual state