View Full Version : Greed is Good


Gilthranon
09-12-14, 06:53 PM
Greed is good. Then again of course, greed translates as self enrichment to ensure healthy survival right ? Without ego, one would literally not survive for even a week.

Throughout history it has driven some of the greatest men to some of the greatest precipices of human achievement. Rome, GB, the USA, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, and Darwin have all been driven by the greedy lust for power, knowledge, and wealth.

And for me one of the things that drives me on in life is an insatiable hunger for knowledge, social activity and creative passion (and luxury). Nothing else really matters to me (not true but sounds cool)

What about you guys? Are you driven by greed or something else?

And do you think that Greed is in fact Good?


PS - most of this post is a near letter to letter copy of a message I didn't come up with originally (not from this forum). But I related to it a lot. Just retyped some things including first sentence. For those of you who know me better, you might be able to recognize my writing style ... :)

Greyhound1
09-12-14, 11:44 PM
I don't think greed is good. It will quickly be the down fall of human society when everyone believes in it.

Everything in life always comes back to moderation being the best.

Greed may be good for an individual or animals survival is all I can see.

I am not sure if I agree that a quest of knowledge is greed.

According to Miriam Webster online:

Greed is the selfish and excessive desire for more of something than is needed.

Can anyone ever have more knowledge than they need? Don't we all need more?

Flory
09-13-14, 01:17 AM
I'm driven by wanting puppies and nice things ATM but then ces along ADHD and ****s it all up anyway.

However what I do have is a lot of love for my family and friends and I like to try and make them happy especially as I'm so sh!tyy to have to deal with sometimes

stef
09-13-14, 02:43 AM
It's a fine line, betwern greed and ambition.

I've always associated greed purely with wealth, i.e corrupt politician, CEOs of Walmart, etc

I'm driven by passion and desire to succeed and create and learn and write, but not so much by wealth itself. Greed purely for knowledge is good and if more people had this the world would be a better place.

mildadhd
09-13-14, 02:55 AM
I like the idea of people sharing and "pulling their own weight" (with accommodations when necessary/required ).







P

SB_UK
09-13-14, 08:19 AM
I don't think we can find any 'good' in the definition of greed.

noun: greed


intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.
"mercenaries who had allowed greed to overtake their principles"
synonyms:avarice (https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=p3n&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&q=define+avarice&sa=X&ei=hTUUVNfSH5PkaqjzgIgO&ved=0CCQQ_SowAA), acquisitiveness (https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=p3n&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&q=define+acquisitiveness&sa=X&ei=hTUUVNfSH5PkaqjzgIgO&ved=0CCUQ_SowAA), covetousness, rapacity (https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=p3n&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&q=define+rapacity&sa=X&ei=hTUUVNfSH5PkaqjzgIgO&ved=0CCYQ_SowAA), graspingness, possessiveness, materialism (https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=p3n&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&q=define+materialism&sa=X&ei=hTUUVNfSH5PkaqjzgIgO&ved=0CCkQ_SowAA)


Greed seems as close to a by definition bad thing.

ie like you can't call evil good because it's defined as the opposite.

Greed is good and Evil is good fail in the same way.

Now evil might be a good aspect to nurture in a desperately aspiring psychopath (lawyer) but it's not 'good' ... ... smelly words.

someothertime
09-13-14, 11:29 AM
i believe many adders are incapable of greed. and this flows into our openness... and also compounds or instigates many socio-behavioral coping mechanisms....

on the one hand we need to relate everything back to us....

on the other, we rarely harbour motives beyond a current dynamic....

besides... for most of us, "greed" is about fullfillment..... not excess..... so i think were a little hard on ourselves on this one..... in fact....... we need to become "greedy"....... or at least....... redefine what greed is...... as the OP instigates....


ty

peripatetic
09-13-14, 11:46 AM
It's a fine line, betwern greed and ambition.

Stef makes an interesting point here about greed and ambition. I'd say I think of greed as ambition without regard to others AND at the expense of others. SB offers an actual definition that is in line with my thoughts on this, I'd say.

So, to the original question: no, I do not think greed is good. I think compassion and justice are good and greed undermines the potential for manifesting those.

Greyhound1
09-13-14, 11:50 AM
i believe many adders are incapable of greed. and this flows into our openness... and also compounds or instigates many socio-behavioral coping mechanisms....

on the one hand we need to relate everything back to us....

on the other, we rarely harbour motives beyond a current dynamic....

besides... for most of us, "greed" is about fullfillment..... not excess..... so i think were a little hard on ourselves on this one..... in fact....... we need to become "greedy"....... or at least....... redefine what greed is...... as the OP instigates....


ty

That's an interesting perspective Somo! I wouldn't consider fulfillment to be considered greed. I think for us fulfillment is necessary just to feel normal and accepted. We are trying to regain what ADHD has taken from us. I don't think fulfillment equates to greed necessarily.

mildadhd
09-13-14, 12:20 PM
Taking care of ourselves on an individual level is extremely important especially when others are depending on us.

I don't think taking care of ourselves is greed, if others who depend on us in the long run are benefiting as well.

Taking care of ourselves when able, and seeking help when not able, seems like a individual, family and social responsibility.



10
Take Care of Yourself

Modern life is busy and it can be difficult to balance competing demands on your time.

Taking on the role of a parent requires changes in your routine and may require that you stop doing some of your previous activities to make sure you get enough rest and time for yourself and the rest of your family.

If you can, find someone to care for your child and make a regular date with yourself to relax.

Your baby will be fine and you will manage this challenging and rewarding job as your child's first and most important teacher much more easily.


Depression After Delivery

Many mothers suffer from various degrees of depression after giving birth.

This is caused by the hormones changing in your body and is perfectly normal.

When depression eases during the first six months, children are generally not affected.

If depression lasts for a year or more, it can have a long-lasting impact on the child.

Please seek help if you think you are depressed after having a baby.

For your sake and your baby's.

ThrivebyFive
WASHINGTON
Ten Simple Ways to Encourage Learning
(http://www.thrivebyfivewa.org//wp-content/uploads/10%20Simple%20Ways/FEL_10SimpleWays_English_PRESS.pdf)

SB_UK
09-13-14, 02:34 PM
If you can, find someone to care for your childImpossible to go out because of children. [who looks after them ?]
Impossible to cook because of children. [just don't have the time to cook, buy ingredients]
Impossible to watch TV because of children. [too much noise - repetitive complaints about how boring the program is ... asking questions about something or other]
Impossible to exercise because of children. [who looks after them ?]
Impossible to garden/prepare veggies in allotment because of children. [It's boring apparently]
Impossible to shop because of children. [For instance today - more time spent trying to stop them run dangerously around shops than looking at what's on offer]

-*-

They really wear you out - and it's not rewarding in the way that you're supposed to believe - trading 'em in for a guaranteed disease-free dog would be nice.

Children don't fit into current society.

You need to have masses of money and children who're naturally gifted at maths (guaranteed high paying job) to enjoy kids - otherwise they're just an exercise in pain.

Just money which destroys everything and maths over-complicating problems with much more elegant simple solutions.

Not sophisticated mathematical economic models - simply discard money.

Maths NOT required.

SB_UK
09-13-14, 03:02 PM
Impossible to spend money because of children. [How're they ever going to buy a house/afford education BY THEMSELVES].
Impossible to travel with children. [Haven't time to watch out for tourist trap con merchants whilst simultaneously keeping an eye on children].
Impossible to go out with children in urban areas. [They don't look around them when they walk - hit into people, cars].
Impossible to go into the country with children. [They always fall in dog muck, complain about being in the countryside and make your life generally hell].
Impossible to relax around kids. [But there's always the time after they're in bed ... ... and you're so tired you fall asleep 5 minutes later ... ...].
Impossible to get kids to school and pick kids up from school. [School terms are shorter than work terms, start after and finish before standard working hours],
Impossible to eat healthily around children. [Ever met a kid that likes his greens].

You know Western style living and children are not compatible.

People're gonna' have to decide whether rampant consumerism is more important to them, than their children

- and I have this horrible feeling that consumerism will win.

And the boy was something that mommy wouldn't wearhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS91knuzoOA

-*-

Greed is good.

Robotically marching to a flute played by the devil himself.

SB_UK
09-13-14, 03:11 PM
What human beings need -

wisdom requiring knowledge
personal quality

ie personal improvement requires the individual to gain skills which DO NOT impede any other individual in pursuit of the same goals - and are most easily achieved by helping others to attain the same goals simultaneously.

So - we move to a model of aspiration which is pro-social as opposed to anti-social (selfish) ... ... ie greed (materialism) is fundamentally bad - because it cannot exist within a pro-social context.

If I want some*thing* for myself - then you can't have it.

There's no way for that philosophy to exist within a functional society - all that'd happen is that progressively few will inherit it all.

'Elysium' is a wonderful impression of what is happening currently.

Ananas
09-13-14, 04:12 PM
hunger for knowledge is not greed

anonymouslyadd
09-13-14, 11:54 PM
Greed is something that's very difficult to define and even more difficult to measure. Just because someone's rich doesn't make them greedy. People can get rich by saving their money, working hard and working in a rewarding industry. People may seek to create wealth in order to have a secure future. Is that greed?

I've read a little about entrepreneurs, and they're not driven by money. They're usually driven by one, single vision (ie Mark Zuckerberg wants to connect the world).

ADDandME
09-14-14, 09:32 AM
"Greed is but, one symptom of Selfishness."

SB_UK
09-17-14, 08:12 AM
Greed is something that's very difficult to define and even more difficult to measure. Just because someone's rich doesn't make them greedy. People can get rich by saving their money, working hard and working in a rewarding industry. People may seek to create wealth in order to have a secure future. Is that greed?

I've read a little about entrepreneurs, and they're not driven by money. They're usually driven by one, single vision (ie Mark Zuckerberg wants to connect the world).

Any global vision of a better world and anything one could do to make it happen (the visionary entrepreneur) will come across one fatal flaw.

Money.

Doing something worthwhile generally makes people more free ie able to live their lives more freely - whereas the principle underlying money is to lock you down in some dependence relationship.

So - if you buy and learn the 'Apple' way - you're locked into their very costly ecosystem ... ...

Was Steven Jobs a visionary entrepreneur ?

When I think Apple - I think all of the worst things about human beings.

People who buy flashy gizmos in order to feel good about themselves.

File away under designer clothing, sports cars, jewellery ... ...

Life's better without any of that.

However I am open to a pair of pants, towel (yoga mat) and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (mobile) wikipedia access
- and Steven Jobs has made more of a contribution to helping to make 'The Guide' possible for all people of the planet, than any other person on the planet.

What is it that the average person on the street steals these days ?
Mobile electronic devices have become the new trainers.

I don't know.

A principled visionary entrepreneur cannot work within a monetary economy.

We all know of the many suicides which have taken place in factory farming Apple products in China - just to make them lovely and cheap for the West ... ... is that moral ?
Of course not.

Money rests as the fatal flaw in entrepreneurship.

Until it's eliminated - entrepreneurialship in the best interests of the species - will not be able to take place.

Mark Zuckerberg - connect the world.
I guess we need a connected world which talks sense ... ... too many pictures of animals which look like famous historical dictators perhaps takes us elsewhere
- or maybe it doesn't ?

Don't know.

There's only 1 vision which runs through history.

The fight for equality of man.

At some point soon - we're going to have to realise that money (a system which mandates inequality - wikiP/wealth condensation) is of course (duhh!!) not consistent with equality.

It is defined on (the entire system of money works by) creating progressively more inequality.

Stevuke79
09-17-14, 08:21 AM
I was once told, and I think it's true: "Make no mistake, giving to charity is a selfish act." (selfish = greedy)

I think for most of us it's true. I know for me there is an element of ambition and greed in every good deed. I know what kind of person I want to be - that's ambition and it's greedy.

I think greed is the only reason we do anything in this world. I don't think greed is good or bad. It's just a fact.

SB_UK
09-17-14, 09:34 AM
I think greed is the only reason we do anything in this world. I don't think greed is good or bad. It's just a fact.

Then there's no possibility of the human race surviving.

Greed is dispelled by wisdom.

In very simple words - greed scratches an itch which wisdom prevents.The itch represents a need for reward.

With wisdom - you no longer need reward to float your boat.

Could easily be convinced that ADDers are born into needing no reward paradigm - but of course given an environmental context which doesn't stress us out - leaving us more in needs of reward.

It's interesting how an (external) reward-free organism can turn into the most (external) reward-requiring (stimulant meds) organism imaginable just by virtue of environmental context (distress).

Stevuke79
09-17-14, 09:38 AM
Then there's no possibility of the human race surviving.

Greed is dispelled by wisdom.


Darn it!! :doh::doh::doh: Now I've gone and done it, .. perished the whole human race. Oh the guilt!! Feelings of self loathing,..

So sorry guys.

SB_UK
09-17-14, 09:45 AM
Darn it!! :doh::doh::doh: Now I've gone and done it, .. perished the whole human race. Oh the guilt!! Feelings of self loathing,..

So sorry guys.

Only if it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - which evolution wouldn't permit.

Thing is - aren't you ashamed of people who're out and out greedy ie display the most expensive of everything expecting others to be impressed ?

That basic idea (of being ashamed of the rich/greedy) has grown in the time I'm alive - meaning (I think) - that as the world has become ever more connected (informationally) - that greed has ceased to be as attractive as it once was.

Now people see greed (people who like to display wealth) as being immoral - to be avoided
- it's an interesting attitude shift - and it'd be interesting to know the timescale that it has operated to.

What is it with displays of personal wealth ?
It's not any measure of the individual's quality (personal quality is a good thing) - it's more a means of hiding one's lack of personal quality.

ie it's not a pointer to 'taste' or personal quality but a marker of lack of it.

I'm literaly drawing an inverse relationship between individual quality and desire to display wealth -
the best (high moral calibre) people I know are sandal and sock bike riding beardies ... ... ...

Try again - anything you *buy* says nothing about you; it says more about your lack of satisfaction in yourself - that you need to purchase these things.

Self-actualized requires no 'thing' for happiness ie the urge to be seen to be '...' is a measure of one's mental (wisdom) immaturity.
Having said that though it's nice if you're not too smelly- but that just takes a dab of essentials white vinegar at 15p a litre.

ps the vinegary smell goes after a while but you could just say you've just had a salad with apple cider vinegar
- which of course is too expensive to afford but it'll get you out of that why do you occasionally smell of vinegar embarrassing moment.

SB_UK
09-17-14, 09:58 AM
Having said that though it's nice if you're not too smelly- but that just takes a dab of essentials white vinegar at 15p a litre.

Though I've noted that I'm only ever properly smelly after drinking coffee.

I tell ya' it really looks like olives + herb tea + lovely Mediterranean veggies are the answer to all of our problems.

And what do the superbly healthy monks of Mount Athos eat ?
That.

That's what.

vegan + natural + no cofffee/alcohol/meat/animal products + exercise + sun exposure + fasting + no distress

And what do we have ?
A KFC Pizza McDonalds tie up - a kinda' layered fast food thing with all the tastes of junk from first bite to last gulp.

Fuzzy12
09-17-14, 10:04 AM
Greed is good. Then again of course, greed translates as self enrichment to ensure healthy survival right ? Without ego, one would literally not survive for even a week.

Throughout history it has driven some of the greatest men to some of the greatest precipices of human achievement. Rome, GB, the USA, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, and Darwin have all been driven by the greedy lust for power, knowledge, and wealth.

And for me one of the things that drives me on in life is an insatiable hunger for knowledge, social activity and creative passion (and luxury). Nothing else really matters to me (not true but sounds cool)

What about you guys? Are you driven by greed or something else?

And do you think that Greed is in fact Good?



Is greed the same as desire? If yes, then I agree that you need greed to survive (or ensure anyone else's survival). Without desires, if you are indifferent about EVERYTHING, there is no point in doing the things that you or anyone else needs for survival.

I don't think, I agree that you need an ego to survive. (If ego can be defined as the desire to gain something for just yourself). What about truly communal animals, like ants? I don't think they actually have a strong sense of ego but because all ants desire for the community to survive, individual ants survive too, at least as long as they are meant to.

I'm not really sure what is good or bad. You need a context to define them, isn't it? Without knowing what or if there is a goal or a meaning to life, it's impossible to say, I think. If survival and well being are important though then desire is important and that's why I guess, humans (& other species) have evolved to have desires.

SB_UK
09-17-14, 10:06 AM
that greed has ceased to be as attractive as it once was.


Steven Pinker's giving a lecture down the road in a few minutes.
Something about his book on 'crime decreasing globally'

- pretty sure we can tie in the drop in global crime with a general disenchantment with greed and the pursuit of materialistic pleasures.

Materialism is a burden - once you've gotten all of that stuff you've gotta' store it - and it soon adds up, breaks, requires insurance ... ... you lose it - get a hole in it - are afraid to lend it out - forget who you've lent it out to
- notice people who're avoiding you because you're trying to make the point you're rich

- greed is on the way out

-- and the triumph of greed slowly leaving the building will be the imminent global economic system collapse.

I'm really impressed that the bankers have made a system which really is so unstable - last for so long.

Why wasn't 2008 the end ?

Very impressive - great juggling skills - but things can only go on for a little while longer.

Recent news stories on Japan and Italy (yesterday) (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100028145/only-a-monetary-nuclear-bomb-can-save-italy-now-says-mediobanca/) in imminent risk of collapsing.

SB_UK
09-17-14, 10:26 AM
Back on topic

The global economic system was built knowing that greed would sustain it and knowing that as with all things - it's demise would come
- and that with its demise
- human greed would have to be replaced by human goodwill as determinant of action.

Thing is - and as every ADDer knows - if you do something for the reason of materialistic benefit ie to gain some thing, some certificate, some title

- a large part of you feels like a fraud.

I've never known why I've deserved anything that I've ever 'won' - it feels like we've concocted this strange society in which we have to achieve things and there are people who feel reward when they do as they're told (a predominantly nonADDer thing) and those who feel no reward when they do what they're told.

It's all down to reward.

What is rewarding to the ADDer ?

So - for me personally - it'd be to do something worthwhile.

But but but nothing's worthwhile in a global monetary based economy.
EXACTLY.

greed as determinant of action
- naturally selfish concerns triumph over social considerations.

Flory
09-17-14, 10:34 AM
Ahhhh a resource based economy .....just what is needed

Stevuke79
09-17-14, 11:05 AM
After all, no blood has ever been shed over a resource based economy.

And in a resource based economy gov't can regulate prices, redistribute wealth and provide for the needy,...

Oh wait, sorry! Those last 3 things are benefits of an economy based on modern sovereign currency (otherwise known as 'money'). My bad my bad.

But your solution circumvents the problem entirely, because in a resource based economy there are no needy people. Do I have it right?

SB_UK
09-17-14, 11:09 AM
Flory
SteveukeYou have all you need to live a happy life IN GRBE - we know what people need (Maslow etc) using science and we know that whatever is on offer must be freely (sustainably) offered to all.

So Porsche 999 's named after the thing they most often cause - theft, fire and accident (there's an alarm going off in the background as I write) aren't freely / sustainably generated to all people - are off the table.


Is 999 (UK) 911 (in USA)
- don't know - anyway emergency services.

Works even better in the States.

SB_UK
09-17-14, 11:14 AM
In GRBE - there's no compulsion - maybe 1 slot down the farm once a week ... ... but other than that - go and do your own thing.

The important thing is that NOBODY gets to tell you what to do.

SB_UK
09-17-14, 11:28 AM
of course, greed translates as self enrichment to ensure healthy survival right ?

No it's self-destruction not enrichment to ensure a life not worth living.

Survival can be a consequence of greed - but it's not a life anybody with a mind 'd like.

As mentioned - quiz the morality level of the obscene showy rich and you'll discover how very ugly on the inside those with most expense on the outside are.

How can people use money in that way - when all people know that the sandwich that you didn't need from posh shop could have fed some child in some unpleasant place who desperately needs food for a week ... ...

The burden of bearing an inter-connected mind is that we can't put posh shop over-priced sandwiches eaten by the rich in 1 part of the brain, and knowledge of starving millions in another.


Just 1 system.

Flory
09-17-14, 10:00 PM
Wage slavery makes me a saddddddpanda.

Whilst I take a lot of it with a grain of salt I like a lot of the ideas laid out in the zeitgeist movies (though I know they have now disbanded) the principal is a good one

SB_UK
09-18-14, 04:27 AM
Wage slavery makes me a saddddddpanda.

Doing something worthwhile is something that people (under the cover) want to do.

Doing something pointless for money because there's a gun at our head (eviction,starvation) is what people actually do.

It's ridiculous that people can't do whatever useful task they want for society.

Instead only useless tasks are on offer (how to ensure that your thing breaks more quickly than your competitor) - and you have to work! to get even those.

Desperate competition to do something desperately pointless.

Nobody with a mind can exist within a monetary based economy.

Morality and Monetary are fundamentally incompatible.

At root - there're 2 conflicting reward systems.

Selfish versus social

All exclusively Selfish versus All inclusively selfish

The great error (introduced by mind) is to see people somehow separate from yourself.

Nothing - from the blade of grass outside to the oxygen we're breathing is 'separate' from ourselves.

It's just one system.

So - why does the mind want to see itself as separate ?
I think that it's a remnant from evolution ie competition (genetic program) re-stating itself in mind (reformulating systems which involve competition).

Wait a minute - that doesn't make sense ?
Why ?

Because the mind should overturn competition as a silly thing to do - given 1 system ?
Exactly - except it can only do that once it realises that we're a part of one system.

So - we've the need for a form of enlightenment which places collaborative synergy as the paradigm - replacing the urge to destroy in the name of individual supremacy.

So - you're suggesting that people want to 'win' against other people and that an understanding of nature, science, people, things etc naturally re-educates the desire for winning in competition against all people into the desire for a collaborative creativity in which all people become the best that they can within a pro-social setting.

YES.

That's all there is to it.

I want you to come up with the best recipes I can then use.
I want you to be the best musician you can be to listen to your music.
I want you to be the best gardener so I can enjoy what you create.

There's a fundamental incompatibility between that mindset and the current monetary based economy mindset where simply the greediest people cheat to get on.

A fundamental error at the heart of society - you shouldn't need to be GIVEN reward - you need to feel reward from actions
- for those actions (whatever you do) to be social, personally beneficial, compatible with morality etc etc etc

SB_UK
09-18-14, 08:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_iorX_MAw

SB_UK
09-18-14, 09:05 AM
The desire for a better world is not greed.

Greed appeals to an addictive reward system which places personal satisfaction of the adiction as paramount.

Greed is no different to heroin addiction.

You will engage (and perhaps be successful) until you burn yourself out to unrequited greed.

The heroin addict does not lose their addiction with the more heroin scored.

-*-

With Gekko's use of 'greed' - he's simply twisting words to place good things (the quest for understanding, love) into the same bucket as selfish/addictive behaviour - in order to vindicate it.

Thing is - is that we're never going to get anywhere if we're required to analyse each and every word used by another person for what it actually means ... ... and I would suggest that the lack of clarity in word usage may be a very key factor with the acquisition of wisdom.

When you speak - you have to know precisely what it is that you're trying to convey and make sure that that's the point you convey.

The fuzziness in definition of greed (a fundamentally bad thing) as a good thing (through personal redefinition) places us in the position of not knowing whether there's intentional subterfuge or actual defect in the logical structure of Gekko's mind.

Fundamental point.

Define what human beings need.
Acquiring what human beings need is not greed.

What do human beings need ?
See Maslow's hierarchy of needs with emphasis on all people having these needs satisfied to the same extent.

What do human beings need ?
From another perspective - autonomy, mastery and purpose from Daniel Pink.

At the simplest possible level - what do human beings need ?
To overcome the materialistic reward system and to acquire the spiritual reward system.

More simply
To undergo a transition through mind in which people're happy in pure existence without any thing particularly; no relationship between ownership of money, thing, certificate to happiness ... ... sure you can have a couple of things - but those things aren't addictively intertwined into one's self definition.
In fact one's self definition dissolves with completion of mind (wisdom).

SB_UK
09-18-14, 09:13 AM
At the simplest possible level - what do human beings need ?
To overcome the materialistic reward system and to acquire the spiritual reward system.

The one take home from Eastern religion is simply that what we need is freedom through loss of material world attachment (multiple definitions but loss of attachment to materialism,sexual partners,knowledge ie those very things which people addictively pursue) is the freedom we require.

Place a heoin addict in a silo filled with heroin and they'll be happy.
Offer a heroin addict an empty silo and they won't.

The reason why people can't see the loss of attachment to the material world as a good thing - is that why would you ? if you're addicted to it.

The thought of going cold turkey on addiction isn't much fun ... ... all that we've got going for us - is the dawning awareness that the things we do to satisfy this addictive predisposition really aren't right ie grate against the moral mind

- that is that with increasing information - that people are beginning to grow the eyes to see, ears to hear that the behaviours which they're propelled into in a monetary based economy are not right.

Enter chronic distress and absolute loss of reward from engaging in the immoral systems of a monetary based economy.

anonymouslyadd
09-22-14, 04:15 PM
[QUOTE=SB_UK;1680800]Money rests as the fatal flaw in entrepreneurship.

Until it's eliminated - entrepreneurialship in the best interests of the species - will not be able to take place.

Mark Zuckerberg - connect the world.
I guess we need a connected world which talks sense ... ... too many pictures of animals which look like famous historical dictators perhaps takes us elsewhere
- or maybe it doesn't ?
SB, it seems like you're stating an opinion yet write as if that opinion is a law, conceived by empirical research. When you write that money is the flaw of entrepreneurship, you're stating an opinion, not fact.

Entrepreneurs work many ours to create a product and people buy their product. No one forces the hand of the consumer. Therefore, money is the reward for the entrepreneurs labor. If they were paid in ice cream, would ice cream be the fatal flaw in entrepreneurship?

Humans use money in exchange for goods and services. The use of money is the way humans says that something is worth buying.

I'm reading a lot of personal opinions from you, not facts.

SB_UK
09-22-14, 04:22 PM
[quote]
SB, it seems like you're stating an opinion yet write as if that opinion is a law, conceived by empirical research. When you write that money is the flaw of entrepreneurship, you're stating an opinion, not fact.

Entrepreneurs work many ours to create a product and people buy their product. No one forces the hand of the consumer. Therefore, money is the reward for the entrepreneurs labor. If they were paid in ice cream, would ice cream be the fatal flaw in entrepreneurship?

Humans use money in exchange for goods and services. The use of money is the way humans says that something is worth buying.

I'm reading a lot of personal opinions from you, not facts.

Imagine if I said nobody makes you eat at McDonalds.
But neglect to tell you even though you know that there's only a McDonalds that's near and that you can afford.

The question then is - is it true that nobody makes you eat at McDonalds ?

SB_UK
09-22-14, 04:27 PM
Fact (wikip/wealth condensation) - money leads to inequality.
Fact (no ref necessary) - entrepreneurs take some thing and turn it into a money making venture.
Fact (obviously) - therefore entrepreneurs measure of success is in accumulating more for themselves of the very thing which other people need for people to share and not acquire for themselves.

Very simply.

Imagine a cake in which there's enough for a piece each.

An entrepreneur in a global economic system takes more than his own piece.

Therefore there's less to go around.

Now - imagine a good idea in a world without money.

That kinda' entrepreneur who makes an idea work without gaining a personal fortune - who isn't an entrepreneur using the current world definition of making a fast buck off some innovation - is actually worthwhile.

So - I'd suggest the guy who runs Transitions Network as a true entrepreneur - though it's likely he's made no money.

anonymouslyadd
09-22-14, 04:30 PM
[quote=anonymouslyadd;1682441]

Imagine if I said nobody makes you eat at McDonalds.
But neglect to tell you even though you know that there's only a McDonalds that's near and that you can afford.

The question then is - is it true that nobody makes you eat at McDonalds ?
You'll never find a location with just a McDonald's to eat. If you're going to present an argument in which you always present the exception, forsaking the big picture and overall good, I'm sure you'll find one. That's not the point. You have to look at the big picture. Generally, people have many choices whether for food, clothing or cell phone providers.

Also, why not believe in the individual's capacity to find a better location to live in?

Little Missy
09-22-14, 04:33 PM
Fact (wikip/wealth condensation) - money leads to inequality.
Fact (no ref necessary) - entrepreneurs take some thing and turn it into a money making venture.
Fact (obviously) - therefore entrepreneurs measure of success is in accumulating more for themselves of the very thing which other people need for people to share and not acquire for themselves.

Very simply.

Imagine a cake in which there's enough for a piece each.

An entrepreneur in a global economic system takes more than his own piece.

Therefore there's less to go around.

Now - imagine a good idea in a world without money.

That kinda' entrepreneur who makes an idea work without gaining a personal fortune - who isn't an entrepreneur using the current world definition of making a fast buck off some innovation - is actually worthwhile.

So - I'd suggest the guy who runs Transitions Network as a true entrepreneur - though it's likely he's made no money.

Sounds co____/so___ to me, and that never works out well at all. But hey, what do I know?

anonymouslyadd
09-22-14, 04:57 PM
Fact (wikip/wealth condensation) - money leads to inequality.
Fact (no ref necessary) - entrepreneurs take some thing and turn it into a money making venture.
Fact (obviously) - therefore entrepreneurs measure of success is in accumulating more for themselves of the very thing which other people need for people to share and not acquire for themselves.
Money doesn't lead to inequality. Individual differences lead to inequality. Let's apply the same logic used, regarding the entrepreneur, to sports. In sports, there's always inequality.

For example, why did the Denver Bronco's, Peyton Manning, average 3.4 touchdowns per game and the Buffalo Bills quarterback, EJ Manuel, average 1.1 touchdowns per game, last season? What lead to that inequality? They throw footballs, not money.

Also, in 2013 why did the New York Knicks small forward, Carmelo Anthony, score 27.4 ppg while the Boston Celtics, Jeff Green, scored 16.9 ppg? What caused that inequality? Money wasn't involved.

Individual differences lead to inequality. Peyton Manning has exceptional talent, skills and a great work ethic. Carmelo Anthony is also extremely talented.

Flory
09-22-14, 05:20 PM
Money as in the fictional tokens we exchange for goods and services doesn't create inequality.

But the systems that govern it's value, distribution in society and by trading it and resources on this bizarre thing called the stock market do.

The monetary system is by far the most unquestioned institution on this planet.
In America, one of the richest countries there are approx 1.65 million American households surviving on less than $2 a day with 3,65 million children living in those households.

stef
09-23-14, 05:55 AM
The money system is flawed, because humanity itself is flawed.

If we really did arrive at the idealistic society SB often describes, or even just without money and living through farming and trading, we all know there would be a few people stealing things, stockpiling parts of the harvest and running some kind of a scheme. It's simply human nature so we just have to make our lives as meaningful as possible.

Gilthranon
09-23-14, 09:22 AM
I would be an anarchist (a term to be discussed fore varying individual definitions) had I not lost faith in humanity 4 years ago.

I am a Greenpeace extremist. I would do anything, destroy anything human for nature to survive and would need a higher voice to stop me from destroying whatever injures this planet. We can't live without nature, yet we are a tree destroying our own roots in the name of our intelligence, nature can live without us. Are we a mutation ?

If I stick around here long enough I might propose a discussion about the joke that is peace

Me : love the people, live for them - hate the statistic of humanity, live objectively considering the history

SB_UK
09-23-14, 09:49 AM
Today's newspaper.
The DT is kinda' right wingy and kinda' likes money - making this story all the more credible.

The problem with money.

The 0.1% have abandoned any sense of restraint. They now appear incapable of even enlightened self-interest; it’s all naked self-interest. They want everything, they want it now and they want from it from you.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11109845/Why-arent-the-British-middle-classes-staging-a-revolution.html

SB_UK
09-23-14, 09:55 AM
there would be a few people stealing things, stockpiling parts of the harvest and running some kind of a scheme.

Thing is is that without money there'll cease to be anything that one can do with stuff which isn't required for day to day living.

So example - we've just had my wife's wedding jewellery stolen.
Apparently there are plenty of cash converters around now which anonymously pay money for gold.

If there was no way of getting money for gold - they wouldn't have stolen 'em
- jewellery is spectacularly useless.

The point being that we can generate a system where we all have all of what we all need - which really isn't much.

So why would anybody steal something when it belongs to them anyway ?

SB_UK
09-23-14, 10:03 AM
Money doesn't lead to inequality. Individual differences lead to inequality. Let's apply the same logic used, regarding the entrepreneur, to sports. In sports, there's always inequality.

For example, why did the Denver Bronco's, Peyton Manning, average 3.4 touchdowns per game and the Buffalo Bills quarterback, EJ Manuel, average 1.1 touchdowns per game, last season? What lead to that inequality? They throw footballs, not money.

Also, in 2013 why did the New York Knicks small forward, Carmelo Anthony, score 27.4 ppg while the Boston Celtics, Jeff Green, scored 16.9 ppg? What caused that inequality? Money wasn't involved.

Individual differences lead to inequality. Peyton Manning has exceptional talent, skills and a great work ethic. Carmelo Anthony is also extremely talented.

Individual differences are to be expected.
People making a personal profit from being better than another person, and people making a personal loss from being worse than another person is where the problem lies.
Particularly where being worse than results in individual suffering.

But - I'm fairly sure that 'being worse than' isn't doing justice to the situation - for instance how many children from Flory's 2 million American households on $2 per day are going to get their kids into an Ivy League University.

Are they worse than - or simply the victims of poverty ?

Of course the victims of inequality.

And that's all down to a monetary based economy and people in pursuit of more than they need, taking from people who have less than they need.

This isn't a controversial opinion.

As mentioned - it's in a right wing, generally money supporting publication.

The 0.1% have abandoned any sense of restraint. They now appear incapable of even enlightened self-interest; it’s all naked self-interest. They want everything, they want it now and they want from it from you. Not a left wing socialist, communist right on publication - but the voice of conservatism.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 10:13 AM
I would be an anarchist (a term to be discussed fore varying individual definitions) had I not lost faith in humanity 4 years ago.

I am a Greenpeace extremist. I would do anything, destroy anything human for nature to survive and would need a higher voice to stop me from destroying whatever injures this planet. We can't live without nature, yet we are a tree destroying our own roots in the name of our intelligence, nature can live without us. Are we a mutation ?

If I stick around here long enough I might propose a discussion about the joke that is peace

Me : love the people, live for them - hate the statistic of humanity, live objectively considering the history

A chappy on TV pointed out that whilst Eco-warriors are generally painted as being human-hating extremists

- the ultimate point of what the Eco-warrior works towards is to make the world better FOR MAN.

The excellent point he made was that given several 00s-000s of years post-human extinction - the planet would be ABSOLUTELY fine.

The Eco-warrior is fundamentally working to keep the human species alive.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 10:16 AM
Long-term, we must begin to build our internal strengths. It isn't just skills like computer technology. It's the old-fashioned basics of self-reliance, self-motivation, self-reinforcement, self-discipline, self-command.

~Steven Pressfield

As long as self relates to a collaborative species.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 10:42 AM
the idealistic society ... ...

which will occur after the death (imminent now) of this current one.

It's everywhere now.

An unstoppable and inevitable transition.

http://vimeo.com/105589124

-*-

The transition is inevitable; our lives though are finite
- it's in our self-interest to force the transition asap - who wants to live their lives on a journey to the promised land.

The road trip is/was (or so it will be documented) particularly unpleasant.

Fuzzy12
09-23-14, 10:55 AM
Thing is is that without money there'll cease to be anything that one can do with stuff which isn't required for day to day living.

So example - we've just had my wife's wedding jewellery stolen.
Apparently there are plenty of cash converters around now which anonymously pay money for gold.

If there was no way of getting money for gold - they wouldn't have stolen 'em
- jewellery is spectacularly useless.

The point being that we can generate a system where we all have all of what we all need - which really isn't much.

So why would anybody steal something when it belongs to them anyway ?

Because some people want gold...

stef
09-23-14, 11:01 AM
If someone decided "pebbles" were valuable, people would suddenly want them.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 11:05 AM
If gold can't buy you anything though.

Show a kid a playground and a lump of gold and the gold 'll be thrown away.
It's of no intrinsic worth - only extrinsic worth.

And the major debate we have here is between extrinsic worth (reward) (primitive reward system) vs intrinsic worth (reward) (personal reward).

Fuzzy12
09-23-14, 11:06 AM
If someone decided "pebbles" were valuable, people would suddenly want them.

Some people do think that pebbles (or whatever) are valuable and they do want them. That is my main problem with SB's philosophy. People want different things. They probably don't need everything they want and they probably don't want everything they need but I think, it would be impossible to create a society where everybody has exactly the same things and is happy with that.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 11:08 AM
If someone decided "pebbles" were valuable, people would suddenly want them.

What's valuable to man these days is collaborative creative expression.

The things we're after can't be bought (aren't things) but represent personal qualities like physical health, skill playing an instrument, skill writing etc ... ...

The reward system which sees the accumulation of 'things' over quality is the reward system of a species which cannot be considered to bear a mind.

stef
09-23-14, 11:14 AM
The reward system which sees the accumulation of 'things' over quality is the reward system of a species which cannot be considered to bear a mind.

You've just described a very large section of humanity, unfortunately...

SB_UK
09-23-14, 11:16 AM
If someone decided "pebbles" were valuable, people would suddenly want them.

Exactly - if gold is generally not considered to be valuable ie can't buy you anything you want - then the entire world of money/replacements is transcended.

The simple argument is that personal quality is learnt - and can't be bought.

Widespread understanding that people want to be personally better at something that brings them a feeling of personal reward - and we can reveal that world without financial pre-condition.

IE borrow a guitar, borrow a piano, online teaching (it's easy with instruments) ... ....

there's no impediment (if we want there not to be) - to people becoming personally better at something which they find rewarding.

The necessary pre-condition is that the individual needs to enjoy the behaviour sufficiently that engagement brings its own reward.

The ADDer problem - taking reward in a bottle to overcome lack of reward from doing what we're supposed to do - is immediately remedied.

What do I want ?

Silence moving in the sun.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 11:24 AM
You've just described a very large section of humanity, unfortunately...

Everybody can be turned around - for the most part I think it's because the behaviour is unquestioned.

Think about it - allow oneself the time to think about whether you're happy about the way things're going - and nobody's going to come out satisfied.

Fuzzy12
09-23-14, 11:28 AM
So who would make the guitars, pianos, etc.? And why would they make them if they didn't get anything in return? Would the people who want to play the piano, have to make their pianos themselves? Or would everyone just possess a piano? I think, the main reason why money (or any equivalent barter system) came into being was because people realised it was more efficient to exchange (skills, goods, etc.) rather than make everything yourself

Flory
09-23-14, 11:31 AM
If you didn't have to go to a job that you HATE every single day with little to no spare time you might have more impetus to follow things that you enjoy so the idea of making pianos sounds interesting to you, well, you'd make one

SB_UK
09-23-14, 11:34 AM
So who would make the guitars, pianos, etc.? And why would they make them if they didn't get anything in return? Would the people who want to play the piano, have to make their pianos themselves? Or would everyone just possess a piano? I think, the main reason why money (or any equivalent barter system) came into being was because people realised it was more efficient to exchange (skills, goods, etc.) rather than make everything yourself

Skilled craftsmen who enjoy it.
Most likely enjoy playing.
Definitely enjoy listening.

Fuzzy12
09-23-14, 11:35 AM
If you didn't have to go to a job that you HATE every single day with little to no spare time you might have more impetus to follow things that you enjoy so the idea of making pianos sounds interesting to you, well, you'd make one

I wouldn't :rolleyes:. I'd spend the rest of my life looking for a perfect tree to chop down to make my piano while fretting that I'm not able to play the piano right now!!

I see what you mean though. I think, there are different things at play here though. I dont really understand how exactly SBs ideal society would work and how it would avoid making people do things they don't enjoy doing. If I wasn't able to buy (or exchange) the things I want, I'd spend a lot of my life having to make those things and the manufacturing process isn't always a lot of fun.

Fuzzy12
09-23-14, 11:37 AM
Skilled craftsmen who enjoy it.
Most likely enjoy playing.
Definitely enjoy listening.

Are you sure? Are you sure it's so easy to always match up what we want with people who can provide it without asking for anything in return?

SB_UK
09-23-14, 11:40 AM
If you didn't have to go to a job that you HATE every single day with little to no spare time you might have more impetus to follow things that you enjoy so the idea of making pianos sounds interesting to you, well, you'd make one

I'm guessing that you would live for the pianist that could make your instument sound.

Why did Stradivarius do it ?

The name "Stradivarius" has become a superlative often associated with excellence

The world is enriched through that form of excellence - and is destroyed by the form of excellence (becoming rich) which current society thrusts us towards.

Fuzzy12
09-23-14, 11:40 AM
I'm not saying that the current system is the best possible out there. It definitely has its flaws but I'm just not sure what the alternative would be or rather how good any alternatives would be. I just don't think, it's as easy as "just getting rid of all money". What does that even mean? Does it mean getting rid of everything that isn't useful in itself except that it can be used as some sort of credit token?

SB_UK
09-23-14, 11:41 AM
Are you sure? Are you sure it's so easy to always match up what we want with people who can provide it without asking for anything in return?

Yes.
Not a problem.

Flory
09-23-14, 11:43 AM
Also just a pause for thought poverty directly effects the development of a child's brain scans show children raised in poverty have smaller less developed brains, so it's likely that poverty perpetuates poverty even with a "scholarship" to Harvard available it's unlikely that a child raised in poverty would have the mental ability to study at the level necessary to escape the poverty trap
http://ccpweb.wustl.edu/pdfs/2013barch-poverty.pdf

Flory
09-23-14, 11:52 AM
Where I live I have families all around me that are four generations deep on welfare and low incomes

chaotic mind
09-23-14, 02:37 PM
Here's my 2cents for what its worth.

The solution isn’t to get rid of money just like the solution for alcoholism wasn’t prohibition. The solution is somehow convincing people that money isn’t the most important thing in their lives. Unfortunately everything around us is telling us to believe the exact opposite and for some reason we all want to believe the exact opposite.

The economy is an artificial system devised by humans. Yet we believe in it completely and make sacrifices to it as if it were a god. We will all agree to anything as long as it helps the “economy”. We all live our lives by its artificial rules. We give our time and our souls and are willing to sacrifice our planet, clean air and clean water for it. I’m not a religious person, but it seems to me this is exactly what the first commandment is all about and no one even realizes it.

Like a religious ideology, it clouds everything we see. It makes it “ok” for us to watch people suffer in poverty because we believe that in our “great economy” poor people chose to be poor because they are lazy or some other b.s. It makes people deny climate change because it’s a problem that was caused by the great free market economy, which is of course impossible. It makes it ok for us to believe the Iraq war was about helping Iraqis or fighting terrorism when we all know it was about oil. No reasonable person believes that 1% of the population should have 95% of the wealth. No reasonable person believes its ok for the rich to have billions when people and even entire countries don’t have the basic resources to live. If someone had a pile of food on an island and no one else had any, that ‘rich’ person would be seen as the prick they are for not sharing. Even though it is identical, it somehow becomes completely different because we all believe the lie. No one started out thinking this way.

Other systems won’t work ONLY because we see the world and people through this distorted lens of the capitalist economy. I say tax everyone above the poverty line and give it to those below it so that everyone is equal. Most people hate this idea and say things like they worked hard and “earned it” or “deserve it” and “no one will take what is theirs”. They can say this, but a sure sign someone is a slave to something is that they absolutely lose their mind by the mere threat of it being taken away. There is no debate about this….only when you can say , “fine, take what you need” do you know you are no longer a slave to money. Its really that simple. But if people continue to worship the economy and voluntarily agree to be enslaved, no one will ever be able to change anything. Our collective willingness to believe the lie is the problem. Greed and poverty follow from that.

So greed is good, only if your definition of ‘good’ means profiting from this lie we all agree to believe.

Gilthranon
09-23-14, 03:00 PM
[...]The excellent point he made was that given several 00s-000s of years post-human extinction - the planet would be ABSOLUTELY fine[...]
I'm afraid I didn't entirely get it...

SB_UK
09-24-14, 04:00 AM
I'm afraid I didn't entirely get it...

Eco-warriors aren't trying to save the planet {period} - they're trying to save the planet for human beings to enjoy.

We don't need to worry about the planet (followinf human species extinction) because given enough time - it will regenerate by itself.

The timescale mentioned ie for vegetation to cause the concrete structures of man (post human extinction) to crumble 'd probably be in the 000's of years - but that's really nothing on the billion year scales which Universal reality and planetary reality are immersed in.

Natural diversity would return.

Without human beings (as a bad mistake) to mess it up again.

-*-

We may be able to correct the problems we've created - all that's required is an understanding that everything that's of importance is in our own heads (minds) - and that we have freedom to shape our internal model of reality.

Currently people spend their time shaping the external world and destroying it in the process (the paved paradise and put up a parking lot)
- but concrete isn't biodegradable, cars use fossil fuels, parking lots are ugly, not everybody can have a car, who likes being in a traffic jam ?, greenery is scientifically proven to help us to relax, greenery is required to provide us with clean air

- we appear to have manufactured a world in which only those things which can be charged money for matter
- where the things that really matter (which we can't make money from) are destroyed.

stef
09-24-14, 04:03 AM
[QUOTE=SB_UK;1682950]Eco-warriors aren't trying to save the planet {period} - they're trying to save the planet for human beings to enjoy.

/QUOTE]

Not necessarily...I would think they care more about the non-human species populating it.

SB_UK
09-24-14, 04:09 AM
Here's my 2cents for what its worth.

The solution isn’t to get rid of money just like the solution for alcoholism wasn’t prohibition. The solution is somehow convincing people that money isn’t the most important thing in their lives. Unfortunately everything around us is telling us to believe the exact opposite and for some reason we all want to believe the exact opposite.

The economy is an artificial system devised by humans. Yet we believe in it completely and make sacrifices to it as if it were a god. We will all agree to anything as long as it helps the “economy”. We all live our lives by its artificial rules. We give our time and our souls and are willing to sacrifice our planet, clean air and clean water for it. I’m not a religious person, but it seems to me this is exactly what the first commandment is all about and no one even realizes it.

Like a religious ideology, it clouds everything we see. It makes it “ok” for us to watch people suffer in poverty because we believe that in our “great economy” poor people chose to be poor because they are lazy or some other b.s. It makes people deny climate change because it’s a problem that was caused by the great free market economy, which is of course impossible. It makes it ok for us to believe the Iraq war was about helping Iraqis or fighting terrorism when we all know it was about oil. No reasonable person believes that 1% of the population should have 95% of the wealth. No reasonable person believes its ok for the rich to have billions when people and even entire countries don’t have the basic resources to live. If someone had a pile of food on an island and no one else had any, that ‘rich’ person would be seen as the prick they are for not sharing. Even though it is identical, it somehow becomes completely different because we all believe the lie. No one started out thinking this way.

Other systems won’t work ONLY because we see the world and people through this distorted lens of the capitalist economy. I say tax everyone above the poverty line and give it to those below it so that everyone is equal. Most people hate this idea and say things like they worked hard and “earned it” or “deserve it” and “no one will take what is theirs”. They can say this, but a sure sign someone is a slave to something is that they absolutely lose their mind by the mere threat of it being taken away. There is no debate about this….only when you can say , “fine, take what you need” do you know you are no longer a slave to money. Its really that simple. But if people continue to worship the economy and voluntarily agree to be enslaved, no one will ever be able to change anything. Our collective willingness to believe the lie is the problem. Greed and poverty follow from that.

So greed is good, only if your definition of ‘good’ means profiting from this lie we all agree to believe.

I don't want money.
Money can't buy me anything that I want.
(Of course money allows me to survive - but that's a model of money as stick and not money as carrot).
So - with the personal perspective of money as 'stick' - I naturally grow to despise it.
This is what is required to eliminate the world of money.

A rational understanding of how money is not consistent with pro-social global functioning - resulting in individuals reactively rejecting its pursuit.

So - the only solution to alcoholism is alcoholics no longer wanting to drink alcohol.
The key solution to the pursuit of money is through completion of mind (the generation of a rational model of understanding consistent with species wellbeing) - people reject its authority.

SB_UK
09-24-14, 04:39 AM
So - expressed in a more extreme (more simple to understand) manner.

Imagine if you knew that the shooting pain you felt every time you jumped was a sensor which fired a rubber bullet at you.

You'd stop.

'everytime you jumped' = supporting power hierarchies of money/law
'fires a bullet' = distress
'shooting pain' = the so called diseases of Western living which're driving people through painful lives to premature death with particular ref to diabesity.

The simple key is to making the connection between your own disease and societal inequality - borne through people seeking reward from the animal (primitive) reward mechanism which ONLY 'does' if it's rewarded by more than it has contributed.

The sun doesn't give light to the moon expecting that the moon's gonaa' owe it one (actually two in our society).

SB_UK
09-24-14, 05:05 AM
Finally what's the big difference between addiction to alcohol and addiction to materialism (ownership of more money, things, power, knowledge than others)

- the wise (rational, complete, moral) mind loses addiction to materialism.

IE knowing that it's hurting you can dissipate the addiction to materialism.

However knowing that alcohol is bad for an alcoholic won't allow an alcoholic to give up alcohol without pain.

So - growing to know that materialism is bad through possession of a mind leads to the individual feeling pain when they engage in materialism.
Knowing that alcohol is bad doesn't stop there from being much pain in withdrawing from alcoholism.

Trying to work out whether that's true.

Thinking that as mind build there's a sliding scale in which loss of reward from not engaging the material drive is balanced by pain from engaging in materialism - at some point the pain overcomes the joy of materialism (courtesy of mind) - and at that point the individual is on a path towards loss of material world attachment.

I think that knowledge that alcohol is bad would help in treating the alcoholic - but with chemical addiction (alcohol) - that the mind reaching an understanding 'd still leave much pain for the individual to feel in 'correcting' his physiology back to intended.

Don't know.

Sticking to materialism (greed) - the sole point which I'm sure of though is -
reward from materialism
vs
pain from materialism (as mind (of morality) forms)

Goal - to have a mind of morality which shifts the individual away from material world attachment - back to the garden.

More simply.

No further desire to partake in the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (through having attained fixed moral nature) - and you're allowed back (lfor good) into the garden = resonant synchrony with God - see boson
- simply resonance with a fundamental creative substrate = creative social impulse which 'guides' evolution of itself towards a Universe of increasing informational entropy.

-*-

More simply.

Know what's right and what's wrong and you'll naturally gravitate towards what's right since what's right is in your best interests.

It's often said that evolutionary selection favours survival.

The ultimate in survival enhancing properties - one which man is close to obtaining
- is morality.

With enforced morality - species survival would be ensured
ie it ticks all the boxes - is consistent with the evolutionary emergence of mind - and upon completion - the evolutionary deliverable of species survival - with possession of this new characteristic.

SB_UK
09-24-14, 05:18 AM
Thinking ... ...

Wisdom dissipates addiction to materialism (this is an informational addiction ie an idea) ?
Does wisdom (knowing what's best for you) dissipate addiction to chemically addictive substances ?

What's the difference between the addiction to an idea (materialism) and to a chemical substance (alcohol,heroin) ?

I'm tempted to suggest that chemical substance addiction results in a much deeper effect on human physiology than informational addiction.

IE that the material world addiction disturbs the human machine less than the chemical world addiction - which makes it easier to overcome.

Haven't thought about this before.

Why ?

Because alter society away from encouraging material world addiction (ie patting children on the back when they out compete fellow students) and individuals won't be distressed (won't fall into poverty) - won't be so distressed that they'll turn to drugs.

IE if we make a single key intervention at the level of forming a fair society by allowing all people access to happy survival essentials (food/shelter) as a birth right
- then we dismantly each and every downstream problem in society.

Nobody would support an immoral scheme unless they're forced to.

And without money to sweeten the path to immorality - we've a double whammy which both removes the stick (I won't survive otherwise) and carrot (activation of the materialist reward system ie selects for the materialistic psychopath) - which destroys global society.

-*-

So ... ... simply a mutual / co-operative basis to local generation of sustainable happy survival essentials (seasonal crops and zero energy housing) -

and then do what you want.

I want to be an organic olive oddbod.

SB_UK
09-24-14, 05:24 AM
ooo !

[Back to the garden]

SB_UK
09-24-14, 06:00 AM
The direct answer to the thread title 'Greed is good' is that greed is the only thing we can be certain of - is bad.
But that our task is to be able to see it.

Requires mind which knows the difference between right and wrong.
Mind of morality.
Completion of mind.
Wisdom.

The essential problem with our society is that education does not have morality as a component eg maths - is just a game.
Morality does not form a part.

There's no point in introducing learning systems into the shared mind space unless the point is for people to understand them.
To want to understand them.
For their lives to be enriched by understanding them.

Teaching somebody some logically consistent scheme which they'll never use is of no use.

The ultimate scheme which one should aim to impart is sustainable autonomy.

IE how people can live sustainable happy lives without dependence on any other person.

Dependence has a nasty habit of becoming slavery.

SB_UK
09-24-14, 06:04 AM
[quote=SB_UK;1682950]Eco-warriors aren't trying to save the planet {period} - they're trying to save the planet for human beings to enjoy.

/QUOTE]

Not necessarily...I would think they care more about the non-human species populating it.

But the best way to restore non-human species diversity 'd be to help the human species to kill itself off - ie that form of eco-warrior 'd be best as a card carrying consumerist forcing himself and all his friends to consume as much as possible until human species popping point.
And we all fall down.

SB_UK
09-24-14, 06:22 AM
[quote=SB_UK;1682950]Eco-warriors aren't trying to save the planet {period} - they're trying to save the planet for human beings to enjoy.

/QUOTE]

Not necessarily...I would think they care more about the non-human species populating it.

Now it wasn't my idea - but the presenter's idea was simply that intrinsic within the eco-warrior's battle is making the world better for human beings
- not just increasing diversity for the sake of it.

The idea of saving the planet isn't right - the planet doesn't need us to save it - if necessary the planet will render us extinct - thereby giving it time to regenerated.

Now - are there any people there who hate human beings and simply want to eliminate the species and return it to nature ?

Maybe there're a few who think that way - but the mind is capable of making a better world for all of nature if it so wishes
- a world which'd far surpass a return of the planet to the competitive model.

-*-

What I think'll happen is stunning global depopulation - a return of people back to warmth ie towards the equator and a reliance on solar power / sea water desalination.

Human global depopulation is just a pattern we're currently undergoing.

The sun can be relied on.

We have next to no energy needs when in a hot climate.

So ... ... of course ... ... global depopulation will crash the global economic system (which requires economic/population growth).
We'll see a return to localism to survive.
That's best served in the sun.

A re-migration back to the equator.

Healthy lifestyles in the sun - zero energy housing, superfast wireless internet and the healthiest of food and exercise regimes laid on as an intrinsic part of the lifestyle.

I only need 1 thing - a kinda' projected screen which we can interface with - exactly as Steve Jobs presented in Wall-E.

Funny the theme song to Wall-E echoes my last series of posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuR8uq9J7gw

-*-

Summarise my single point.

One must work towards obtaining personal and not exclusively selfish materialistic reward; this transition in reward mechanisms is supported by an educational system which supports a scientific investigation into (ie imparting a mind which knows) what is right and what is wrong (for species wellbeing).

SB_UK
09-24-14, 06:24 AM
http://media.cinemasquid.com/m01127/m01127_med_11.jpg

Should be easy.

It's a sorta' software without the hardware - a kinda' mind (software) versus brain thing ... ... ...

what we'd then have is fully augmented reality.

You'd never need to ask what type of tree that was ?
How to get to a certain place ?
Where a friend was ?
How to prepare that food ?
Whether the mushroom ahead is edible ?

IE you've a beautiful balance between reality and virtual reality which improves both
- all that's required is that interface between mind and collective intelligence (internet).

SB_UK
09-24-14, 07:04 AM
So what happens in a world where 3-D and virtual reality is everywhere? Dr. El-Ghoroury predicts people's relationship with technology will change ... ...http://online.wsj.com/articles/new-chip-to-bring-holograms-to-smartphones-1401752938

Just been to Buckingham palace - they've electronic guides which take us through the palace.

First time I've ever been anywhere and enjoyed it.

Kids too.

Augmented reality.

Everything 'll come alive.

Gilthranon
09-24-14, 07:06 AM
SB_UK : Brilliant, glad you're so active. Beyond informative :)

SB_UK
09-24-14, 07:14 AM
So what's the core problem

Greed (individual)
vs
Greed (species)

We want greed (species) ie as much fun for the species as possible requiring sustainable practices etc ... ... and need to lose (as incompatible) greed (individual) which is the pursuit of an 'item or knowledge' for the individual to profit off to the necessary detriment of the collective.

Fuzzy12
09-24-14, 08:06 AM
Also just a pause for thought poverty directly effects the development of a child's brain scans show children raised in poverty have smaller less developed brains, so it's likely that poverty perpetuates poverty even with a "scholarship" to Harvard available it's unlikely that a child raised in poverty would have the mental ability to study at the level necessary to escape the poverty trap
http://ccpweb.wustl.edu/pdfs/2013barch-poverty.pdf

Yes, I totally agree with that. Of course, I don't think that poverty is good or fair. I'm also not a big believer in cut throat capitalism but prefer the kind of model that more socialistic and welfare oriented societies like Norway have.

My problem is really just that I'm not sure how SB's society would work. I'd love to read a thread where you chalk out all details of your ideal society because at the moment it sounds neither feasible nor very pleasant to me but that could be because I don't really understand the details.

SB_UK
09-24-14, 08:18 AM
Simplest possible level.

Level 1
Local sustainable community based farming and sustainable shelter (zero energy housing) provision - local communities synchronized by global internet.
Level 2
With time and desert solar power usage (conversion into hydrogen) - we can have centralised fuel generation (lots of clean fuel to use), a global superfast train connection powered by this fuel and transport of gluts of food [and people] elsewhere.
The mobile internet will have vastly increased in speed by this time.
Level 3
Fun - everybody does whatever can be construed as sustainable fun - 21st century Stradivarius to Mozarts - their works disseminated over our superfast internet.

If you're a musician who lives for an instrument - move to an live next to the master artist/craftsman of instruments.

Imagine there's no country.

-*-

So simply first and foremost - all people have what they need for happy survival [sustainably].
Education to wisdom - internet driven.
Communication between all people - internet driven.
We then aspire to making life as much fun as we can possibly imagine [sustainably] ie a return to whatever human beings consider the fostering of personal quality.