View Full Version : ADHD symptoms and tissue hyperelasticity/ orthostatic intolerance.


Kunga Dorji
09-21-14, 08:58 AM
I went to a seminar on chronic fatigue syndrome last weekend.

One of the talks was by a Dr.Chris O'Callaghan (a general physician from the Austin Hospital in Melbourne), about orthostatic intolerance and about connective tissue hyperelasticity syndromes.


There is some overlap between the two, but it became apparent to me that there must be an overlap with ADHD as well- and it appears that the mechanism is difficulty maintaining blood flow to the brain while sitting or standing for a long while.

I have already got statistics that point to ADHD occurring in a cluster with a number of other syndromes: OCD, Tourettes, Autistic spectrum disorders, anxiety disorders, mood disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, irritable bowel syndrome, migraines and premenstrual dysphoria.

In addition there is a strong statistical association between fibromyalgia and joint hypermobility


Many people have significant connective tissue hyperelasticity (in the top 20% of a normally distributed curve of connective tissue elasticity) without clinically abnormal joint hypermobility. Only a very small minority have defined syndromes like Marfan's syndrome or Ehler's Danlos syndrome.


To make the matter worse many older individuals will develop stiffening of connective tissues around joints that have been traumatised by instability- so they may not have obvious joint hypermobility.



The bottom line is that anyone with any degree of tissue hyperelasticity is prone to difficulty maintaining cerebral circulation when standing due to the elasticity of vein walls (and possible other mechanisms).

This is because we tend to pool about 600ml of our circulating blood volume (total is 5 litres) in the sphlanchnic circulation (ie the veins around the intestines) on standing.

Also the problem can manifest in very subtle ways- often after prolonged sitting or standing.
It may not always be linked to acute symptoms such as dizziness or visual changes on standing up fast.


The problem is worse when hot, or when vasodilated due to alcohol, when relatively dehydrated,and I suspect, when unfit and one does not have a tight trim abdomen.



There are a range of syndromes- the best defined of which is POTS.

That is uncommon- though I did have about 3 months of it in 2012 after being depressed.


However quite clearly the vast majority of orthostatic intolerance is more mild and subtle and is usually missed.



Broadly speaking my suspicion is that many ADD_ inattentive symptoms may well be related to cerebral hypoxia,

and many of the hyperactive symptoms may be related to a very strong sympathetic drive as the body tries to maintain cerebral perfusion against gravity.


This would fit exceedingly well with a pattern of getting fatigued, or fidgety and hyperactive when standing for a while and would account for many of the memory lapses and episodes of forgetfulness in ADHD.


I have thought for some time that the ADHD symptom cluster most closely resembles a low grade intermittent acute brain syndrome.


Equally, anyone with such tissue hyperelasticity would be much more prone to upper cervical spine malalignments about which I have already commented. The association between upper cervical malalignments and the dyspraxias, and dysgnosias seen in many ADHD patients has been clearly demonstrated by the work done by the orthopedic surgeon Heiner Biedermann and associates in Central Europe over the last 40 years.
Biedermann has also demonstrated a strong association between appropriate manual therapy to the cervical spine and substantial improvement or even resolution of ADHD symptoms in school age children.


To round it all off psychostimulants like dexamphetamine and methylphenidate are proven to increase cerebral blood flow.


Since the lecture I have been checking as many patients as I can in the time available, and a substantial majority have a bigger and more persistent increase in heart rate on standing than they should. The most dramatically affected one had a heart rate increase of 40bpm when laid down for 10 minutes and then stood for 10 minutes.


I have personally certainly aborted a couple of episodes of onset of mental fogginess by having a couple of quick glasses of water (rapid blood volume expansion)- and since pushing water and being careful to work more with posture, abdominal breathing.


I have also noted a tendency to higher resting pulse (80-95) if I was not strict with fluid intake in the week, and came home in much better shape on days I had had plenty of water.

I will post my summary of that talk in the next post, but this whole association is rather exciting:

1) It gives us another physical marker to look for in ADHD symptoms.
2) It gives us an excellent explanation for the efficacy of psychostimulants- the dopamine explanation is not a complete one- and certainly does not explain the variability in symptoms from day to day that most people experience even when on stimulants.
3) It offers a series of potential extra interventions that are low cost and easy to implement- and it provides a very sound reason for us to all work on our fitness.

The simple interventions that Dr O'Callaghan suggested are
1) Increase intake of water. A large glass of plain water will push up blood volume for 60-90 minutes.
2) Higher salt intake- much higher.
It is of note that only this montha large study was published in the NEJM that finally debunked the iea that low salt intake protects against cardiac death.
(It actually CAUSES increased risk).
3) General cardiovascular fitness.
4) Improve core strength and posture-- this is a biggie as it tightens the tummy.

In addition I would suggest-
5) Work to build the habit of abdominal breathing as this will compress the abdomen on the in breath.
6) Mindful movement training will reduce the risk of injury associated with ligamentous laxity. It will also help to improve the balance and coordination problems that are so common in ADHD. These problems also rob working memory from more important tasks involved with earning our living.

My own suggestion is that the cheapest and most time efficient way to handle items 4-6 is Tai Chi/Qi Gong.

This also has the advantage that it can be practiced in street clothing and does not need special equipment or time to cool down.

This is all rather pleasing to me-- especially as my colleagues at work have links to a local university, so there is the real possibility of getting some research done to test some easily definable hypotheses that can be formed into meaningful questions with objective numerical definable end points.

It would be very easy to monitor heart rate, blood pressure, skin galvanometry, heart rate variability and response of all these to posture and changes of posture- and the associations with ADHD symptomatology.
Very simple studies- low cost, no major ethics committee hurdles etc.

Equally- improvement in some of these figures with stimulant medication would be easily demonstrable.

Kunga Dorji
09-21-14, 09:00 AM
ORTHOSTATIC INTOLERANCE and DISORDERS OF ELASTICITY


Dr Chris O'Callaghan- lecture 13 September 2013 Alfred Hospital Melbourne
Additional side notes by Kunga Dorji


Maintenance of Blood Pressure Homeostasis


The problem:


Blood pressure regulation when supine is simple- there are no major pressure gradients


When upright gravitation presents considerable challenges and the blood pressure has to be maintained at a level which will pump enough blood uphill to perfuse the brain.


This is complicated by the problem that when upright about 600ml of blood gravitates into the abdominal cavity and sits within the sphlanchnic circulation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4015279


The problem is worse after a meal- when more blood flow is diverted to the gut.
It is also worse when there is relative dehydration or relative vasodilation
(being too hot, alcohol, other conditions causing facial flushing).


The physiology required to adjust blood pressure needs to be
-clever
-powerful
-fast


My personal observation-- NOT Dr O' Callaghan:
It also will to some extent act in a predictive way- i.e. it is likely that adjustments will start to occur when we decide to stand up and also when we prepare to face a particular situation.
In the latter case our view of that situation as threatening rather than pleasantly challenging will initiate a different emotion/behaviour/physiological response program.


Symptoms of Orthostatic Intolerance
feeling faint or dizzy
syncope
migraines
visual disturbances (including sometimes complete, temporary, loss of vision as cerebral perfusion fails)
swallowing difficulties
neck and shoulder pains-- often in a “coat-hanger” distribution involving the neck and shoulders


Physical Signs and symptoms related to the body's attempts to correct the situation:
vigorous activation of a sympathetic response:
cold extremities- including Raynaud's phenomenon and chilblains
sweating
tremor
restless legs
piloerection
pupillary dilatation
tachycardia, palpitations
chest pain
NB the physical symptoms are like quitting Heroin “Cold Turkey”-pale, sweaty, goosebumps, dilated pupils


Manifestations in longer term/recurrent orthostatic intolerance
gut upset
genitourinary problems
fatigue


Neurocognitive symptoms
poor concentration (especially after lunch)
word finding difficulty
feeling light headed
agitation – broadly more likely to manifest as anxiety in females and anger in males.


Syndromes associated with orthostatic intolerance:
postural dizziness
syncope
POTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome)
dysautonomia
sympathetic hyperactivation syndromes


Sympathetic Hyperactivation Syndromes
causes:
Low Blood Sugar
Low Blood Pressure
Hypoxia
Pain
Fear Provoking Stimuli


note that


In all cases the symptom cluster and physical signs are largely identical.
The interoceptive signature of these syndromes is highly likely to cause the affected individual to label non threatening stimuli associated with the event as causative.
(IE Every time I go out and socialise [sit or stand for a long while] I feel these symptoms therefore socialising must cause my anxiety)
[Point 2 is an addition of mine based on my understanding of Antonio Damasio's “Somatic Marker Hypothesis” and the concept of “Co-arising” as applied in Mindfulness integrated CBT].
It is usual for medical practitioners, psychologists and most psychiatrists to mislabel these symptoms as “Anxiety”(Dr O'Callaghan's observation)- then do something really stupid like prescribe an SSRI. [Point 3 is also an addition of mine, based on decades of very wearing experience as a member and, unfortunately a patient of, the allopathic medical profession (my observation).

Behavioural Syndromes


avoidance patterns- i.e. avoiding getting up quickly
avoiding hot environments
avoiding queueing
preferring tight fitting clothing-- corsets, elastic clothing designed for athletes
self medicating the stress symptoms with alcohol- or worse


DIAGNOSIS OF ORTHOSTATIC INTOLERANCE


Essentially requires confirming that symptoms are related to gravity and to inadequate circulation.
The major symptoms have been listed above.


Relationship to gravity
Acute
more obvious- but most patients have become very good at not getting up quickly – so avoiding provoking these symptoms.


Subacute
prolonged upright posture- either sitting or standing
esp:
queueing at the supermarket
standing for a long while at parties
sitting for long at the dinner table


exercise intolerance--
at the onset of exercise
afterwards when the combination of vasodilation to cool down and muscle hyperaemia robs circulating blood volume


other triggers:
Heat
Alcohol
Food Intolerances
High Altitude- mountains, or especially planes ( abrupt change in altitude)
Swimming- while in the water the compression improves available circulating blood volume, but when you come out (esp of hot water) this advantage is lost and there can be a sharp drop in available blood volume.


Diagnostic tests:
A Tilt table test is rarely necessary- and problematic symptoms can occur in the absence of overt Postural Tachycardia Syndrome.


MANAGEMENT
Education- especially re triggers such as heat, dehydration and alcohol

Sodium Intake aim for as much as can be tolerated- about 10g/day (yes that is correct- the American Heart Foundation recommendation of 2.3g/day is now understood to be based on very bad science).


Water Intake
a glass of plain water will elevate Blood Pressure for about 90 minutes- much better than a solute based drink like Gatorade


Compression Garments very helpful for a small subset of patients


Volume Expansion


Liquorice
Fludrocortisone (Florinef)
Erythropoietin


Vasoconstrictors
Adrenergic- midodrine (available via Special Access Scheme).
Phenylephrine Sudafed P--- the other sort causes too many palpitations.


(Footnote from KD-- it is known that psychostimulants increase cerebral perfusion-- and most of the neurocognitive symptoms are indistinguishable from ADHD-- an interesting pair of observations.


Serotonergic
Dihydroergotamine


Vitamin Therapy
no good evidence


Further suggestions by KD


Fitness training
Tai Chi (emphasis on abdominal breathing pattern)
Hot then cold showers-- esp finishing swimming sessions/spa sessions with a cold shower to stimulate vasoconstriction



JOINT HYPERMOBILITY SYNDROMES


Connective tissue elasticty is distributed according to a normal curve.


Assessment of joint hypermobility syndromes is clinical- using the “Beighton score” but is somewhat subjective. Additionally many adults will lose their hyper-elasticity as they scar up due to the multiple injuries they are prone to because of their lax ligaments. It is also of note that individuals with tissue hyper-elasticity syndromes are far more prone to spinal subluxations (as mentioned by Dr O'Callaghan in his talk). In the book “Manual Therapy in Children” the editor and lead author, Heiner Biedermann MD (Orthopaedic Surgeon), discusses the fact that a common compensatory pattern arising in children with birth injury to the upper cervical spine (estimated at at least 30% of the population in the population studies referenced in that book) involves shortening of the hamstrings- another factor that would obscure an underlying tissue hyper-elasticity syndrome. Note that also formally diagnosable joint hypermobility syndromes only account for the most extreme examples of connective tissue hyperelasticity. Again my footnote).




Dr O'Callaghan suggests that most athletes, dancers musicians & artists fall within the top 20% of most elastic joints- but that the top 5% run the risk of being “too floppy to dance” and are the most vulnerable to physical and psychological illness as a consequence of their ligamentous laxity and secondary issues with autonomic dysregulation.

Ehler's Danlos Syndrome specifically has an occurrence rate of 1:5000- so is rare even amongst individuals with tissue hyperelasticity.
Ehler's Danlos is also very difficult to diagnose and assess as diagnostic criteria are not straightforward or easy to quantify.

Given the importance placed upon achieving full lotus position for meditations in some Buddhist traditions (notably the master Dogen- of the Zen school) I personally suggest that most mystics probably come from this group as well, and that high emotional sensitivity is an expected side effect of an autonomic nervous system rendered difficult to control by joint hyper-elasticity.


Additionally- Dr O' Callaghan notes that selective mating amongst like minded individuals is likely to produce offspring in the “too floppy to dance” category.




Genetics
Tissue hyperelasticity is determined by multiple different genes and as a rule genetic screening is not a clinically useful exercise in most cases.
NOTE here that we have an issue where multiple genes and phenotypic compatibilityproduce assortative mating that increase the risk in the offspring-- same situation as in ADHD (again my note).

However- given the characteristics noted above, it is highly likely that individuals with more elastic connective tissue will share many common desirable psychological characteristics such as artistic sensibility, creativity, emotional sensitivity and enthusiasm for sporting activity or for dance-- so selective inbreeding amongst this group producing offspring with progressively greater tissue elasticity is to be expected. This was Dr O'Callaghan's observation- but I would add that the same sort of selective inbreeding is common in the ADHD population, and that in fact it is highly possible that many if not the great majority of cases of ADHD are an epiphenomenon of inherited tissue hyperelasticity and the associated fluid dynamic problems of maintaining cerebral circulation when upright.


Given this observation my own suggestion is that for such individuals maintenance of muscle tone, avoidance of injury and training in mindful movement is likely to be the factor that will make the difference between a happy and successful life and a life on the invalid pension.

The implications for social policy in terms of encouraging moderate working hours, limited hours of “screen interface time” - (especially computers) ample physical activity in the workplace and in leisure time and enough leisure time to actually be physically active are obvious. This is the reason that the Chinese Government has so strongly encouraged Tai Chi in the workplace- it saves a fortune in health costs - it is highly efficient as preventive medicine.

Greyhound1
09-21-14, 11:40 AM
Thanks for all the interesting research. It felt like you were writing about me. I have EDS, ADHD, OCD, Reynalds, and a lifetime battling with anxiety and fatigue. Also, blood tests confirm ANA positive for dual pattern.

I have had issues with palpitations and even hospitalized after having a tachycardia. All triggered by stress.

This helps to tie a lot of issues together for me. Thanks for posting!

Cheers

SB_UK
09-21-14, 02:39 PM
All triggered by stress.


It's just one solid exercise in stress - living in this world.

There's no time to do anything properly - just fire fighting - as the fires get higher.

SB_UK
09-21-14, 02:49 PM
Fludrocortisone (Florinef)


Cortisol resistance from a life under chronic stress ?
Autonomic nervous system imbalance from a life under chronic stress ?

But if you're under chronic stress from birth to death - there's no way of realising it.

SB_UK
09-21-14, 02:57 PM
Given the importance placed upon achieving full lotus position for meditations in some Buddhist traditions (notably the master Dogen- of the Zen school) I personally suggest that most mystics probably come from this group as well, and that high emotional sensitivity is an expected side effect of an autonomic nervous system rendered difficult to control by joint hyper-elasticity.


I'm thinking
ketosis -> pro-GABA (diazepam) -> muscle relaxant -> flexible
in religious types

ie muscles just clench when glutamate is in charge.

Soluble fibre rich diet -> SCFA -> ketosis ?

Kunga Dorji
09-21-14, 04:55 PM
Thanks for all the interesting research. It felt like you were writing about me. I have EDS, ADHD, OCD, Reynalds, and a lifetime battling with anxiety and fatigue. Also, blood tests confirm ANA positive for dual pattern.

I have had issues with palpitations and even hospitalized after having a tachycardia. All triggered by stress.

This helps to tie a lot of issues together for me. Thanks for posting!

Cheers

Look closely at the timing of the palpitations.
It is likely to be at times of prolonged sitting, especially if already compromised by fatigue, emotional stressors, dehydration, other illness, pain, and especially by being too hot or having had a full meal or some alcohol.

I had a roast meal at lunch yesterday with a few glasses of wine and was so wrecked I had to go to bed and I slept the rest of the afternoon.

I am now thinking that this may be relevant to those difficult experiences at family Christmas parties.

Re the ANA issue: that is probably a disruption of immune balance caused by a chronic skewing of your autonomic nervous system towards sympathetic hyperactivation and a cascade of intertwined effects that feed back on each other from that point.

Greyhound1
09-21-14, 05:42 PM
Look closely at the timing of the palpitations.
It is likely to be at times of prolonged sitting, especially if already compromised by fatigue, emotional stressors, dehydration, other illness, pain, and especially by being too hot or having had a full meal or some alcohol.

Re the ANA issue: that is probably a disruption of immune balance caused by a chronic skewing of your autonomic nervous system towards sympathetic hyperactivation and a cascade of intertwined effects that feed back on each other from that point.

My palpitations seem to be entirely triggered by emotional stressors. Usually, just a nervous thought (fight or flight response) would trigger a series of palpitations. They seem to come and go with anxiety levels.

I am very interested in your second paragraph about ANA issue. Can you please explain it as if you were talking to a child. Hopefully, I will understand it. Lol.

Thanks:)

Kunga Dorji
09-21-14, 06:02 PM
Cortisol resistance from a life under chronic stress ?
Autonomic nervous system imbalance from a life under chronic stress ?

But if you're under chronic stress from birth to death - there's no way of realising it.

Now in this case the issue is more subtle than "cortisol resistance".

Fludrocortisone is being used as an aldosterone replacement therapy.

We need to understand that all sterol hormones come from a common precursor- namely pregnenalone.
In conditions of chronic stress there is a higher demand for cortisol and manufacture of cortisol will take priority over manufacture of the sex hormones and aldosterone.

ie The chronic stress may cause a "pregnenalone steal syndrome"- hence leading to relative deficiency of aldosterone.

The big thing to grasp though that for a hyperelastic individual (like probably most of us) the primary stressor is the challenge of maintaining cerebral perfusion while sitting or standing for a long while.

This challenge is worse if we are unfit and worse again if we are forced tosit in the pathogenic posture enforced by Western seating preferences.

John Ratey's championing of standing workstations that are operating in tandem with a treadmill (which runs at very low speeds and can be stopped to allow typing)is noteworthy in this context.

I honestly think that most of the nasty,selfish aggressive behaviour we see is driven by the stress state caused by this dynamic.

The big problem is the misattribution error that occurs when we mistakenly believe that another individual's behaviour is responsible for a stress state that is primarily physiological in nature. Classic ignorance driven delusion- leading to unhealthy attachment and aversion patterns.

Kunga Dorji
09-21-14, 06:17 PM
I'm thinking
ketosis -> pro-GABA (diazepam) -> muscle relaxant -> flexible
in religious types

ie muscles just clench when glutamate is in charge.

Soluble fibre rich diet -> SCFA -> ketosis ?

It really is much more complex than that.
Ample supply of glutamate will certainly make it easier for those neurones to fire, but they will only fire in response to a stimulus.

The real danger is that intracellular glutamate acts as a free radical and is associated with neuronal excitotoxicity.
There is a very strong case to be made for looking at a supplementation regimen that will facilitate conversion of intracellular glutamate to glutathione.

Of course- the skeptics here will say "not proven" --as in there are no proper RCTs looking at the outcomes of this course of action.
That is true in so far as it goes- but the proof of the glutamate - excitotoxicity link is established, and my personal policy is to act in advance of the evidence-- because I will have died of old age before that evidence is ever produced and confirmed.

HADDaball
09-21-14, 07:37 PM
Thanks.

I find it difficult to explain ADD/ADHD in one mechanism, as there are many possible factors:

-genetic links
-brain high in glutamate
-brain low in iron -> low dopamine synthesis
-brain low in essential fatty acids
-low symphetic tone - like orthostatic intolerance

The best one i've found so far is:

-brain high in oleic acid / N-oleyl-ethanolamide (bodies fat signaling system of fullness) ->
activates serotonin recerptors in the hypothalimus (5HT1?) / opposing NE norepinephrine there ->
depressed cortical dopamine (DA) function, indirectly via (5ht1) and depresses NE release - a natural DA4 receptor activator.
-> increased distractability, impulsiveness, low motivation, disorganised etc

This ties in with the bodies gut-brain system - which involves DA and 5HT.

The other thing suggesting the bodies fat signalling system may play a role, is the finding traces of a dopamine-arachidionic acid conjugate in urine - N-arachidonyl-dopamine. Maybe certain fats may lower DA levels in the brain by forming conjugates with them?

It may be something simpler.
-Oil and fat acts like an insulator in water.
-fats easily pass through the blood/brain barrier
-Fatty meals may lower brain electrical signals by lowering fluid conductivity. Maybe the centres involved with ADD are affected first?


I guess there are things going on that we don't understand...

HADDaball
09-21-14, 08:42 PM
Kunga, are you sure a very high salt diet is OK?

High Sodium ->
more adrenaline release
adrenaline activates adrenergic B1 receptors on the heart->
overactivation of B1 on the heart causes heart conditions (eg stress cardiomyopathy)

SB_UK
09-22-14, 06:09 AM
Just thinking out loud.

This is a spectacular thread for what's going on in it.

Aldosterone and cortisol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol) (a glucosteroid) have similar affinity for the mineralocorticoid receptor; however, glucocorticoids circulate at roughly 100 times the level of mineralocorticoids.

If we're subject to chronic stress - cortisol.

And if what happens is in effect persistent high levels of cortisol and low levels (desensitization) of GCr and MCr ... ... then we'd expect - in effect low GC and low MC activity ie an impaired immune system and impaired capacity to regulate plasma ionic concentrations ... ...

ie we can tie MC dysregulation as secondary into GC elevation.

-*-

So I have very low blood pressure - consistent with low levels of MC activity
- secondary to stress.

<- orthostatic intolerance

Also was persistently cramping (ie muscles too tight ie persistently 'clenched')
- the ketosis lifestyle and barefoot running 'appears' (could be wrong) to be correcting that.

<- joint inflexibility

-*-

Looking for the simplest solution - nature wouldn't have made persistent hunters through deserts into massively salt requiring animals - we'd have had our requirements kept down to as low a level as possible.

-*-

Still wondering whether low distress lifestyle + proper food (fresh organic vegan (high soluble fibre) low GI predominantly (ie absence of vast amounts of protein/high GI carbs which encourage the wrong sorta' gut bacteria) or validated gut microbiome food) is the answer.

If we can get >500 cals of energy from SCFA (previous link on myhill site) from JUST soluble fibre - then that's most of our requirement there.

SCFA would have the body in a ketotic environment which'd be relaxed (ie pro-GABA state).

Relaxed 'd result in restored GC and then MC activity which'd result in proper ionic concentration maintenance ... ... meaning correct blood pressure and even more important ionic gradients to support the poor little mitochondria (who absolutely need ionic gradients maintained) in happy aerobic respiration shape.

-*-

So - only intervention - everybody goes down and works (physical) on an organic farm.

Low psych distress (it doesn't involve mind) + Low physical distress (diet).

SB_UK
09-22-14, 06:18 AM
I guess (and as mentioned previously) is the recent awareness that soluble fibre is not inert - but is capable of powering us - powering us in a very good away - consistent with gut cell functioning and optimal biome maintenance.

All we're looking at is an onion, garlic, turmeric and lentil dal followed by pears and psyllium husk ie collective engagement in the vegan* (low GI)** ((organic))*** (((fresh)))**** lifestyle (all people get a wooden shack and solar panels) as the way out of the mess we're in.

* no animals need die; most efficient agricultural system; much cleaner than animal working; sense of achievement; perfectly sustainable; can be done anywhere.

** to eliminate the overgrowth of virulent microorganisms in the gut

*** pesticide/fertilizier aren't sustainable and the effects of these on us are generally considered not to be positive.

**** papers suggesting that even lovely veggies adopt negative effects with time post-death and processing - due to bacterial spoilage (bacteria which promote an immune reaction via LPS) - even at sub-obviously spoiled levels.

SB_UK
09-22-14, 06:21 AM
John Ratey's championing of standing workstations that are operating in tandem with a treadmill (which runs at very low speeds and can be stopped to allow typing)is noteworthy in this context.


Been having that thought this weekend but not for work but communication, play, augmented reality.

A device (projector) which allows us to interact with a computer (google glasses/chrome OS) bring us part of the way there - which allows us to interact with the internet wherever ... whatever we're doing.

Chappy next to me watches movies wherever he goes on a mobile phone ... ... so we're nearing that world
- it's just that the mode of projection of an image will be key.

Being able to swipe a holograph from in front of our eyes would be cool - it's the same technique used in the Wall-E film which presumably has connections to Steve Jobs and so he was zooming in on that capacity.

SB_UK
09-22-14, 06:23 AM
I honestly think that most of the nasty,selfish aggressive behaviour we see is driven by the stress state caused by this dynamic.



So my dog was noticeably more aggressive when sick (IBS like conditions) ... ... it's the same for human beings.

A constant chronic state of distress must take its toll by altering the baseline mood - and I'd suggest making people generally more disagreeable.

Take away the stress and we'll see emotional regulation returned in all of those many people who don't actually realise that they've an emotional dyhsregulation syndrome.

SB_UK
09-22-14, 06:34 AM
Kunga, are you sure a very high salt diet is OK?

High Sodium ->
more adrenaline release
adrenaline activates adrenergic B1 receptors on the heart->
overactivation of B1 on the heart causes heart conditions (eg stress cardiomyopathy)

Sweet - high GI
Umami - high glutamate
Salt - increases adrenaline (from Haddaball)

These're the 3 key attractive receptors for taste.

I'd have to suggest that since we know that 2 are troublesome - that the odds are stacked against the third being useful from the start.

The three appear to share a feature in that they all speed us up.

So - the comment from previously was - what happens when we speed up the rate of burning a candle.

It burns brighter for a far SHORTER time.

-*-

Key point
- the reward system (for as much sweet,salty,umami) as possible propels us towards 'growth' - via rewarding us (neurochemically) - we get hung up on the reward - eat ourselves to death whilst failing to realise that we're supposed to be completing our growth cycle (to wisdom) -
a point at which we lose our attraction for growth promoting food stuffs.

Obvious connection to growth promotion in auto-imune diseases, cancer and to excitotoxicity in all of the conditions previously mentioned as conditions of excitability (epilepsy, heart attack, cramp, asthma).

-*-

Still working on the consideration that a development/application of a moral mind (wisdom) supported by lifestyle (food / shelter sourced as described as above)
- corrects all downstream problems.

So sequential examples:

Starting point = Psychological distress (from enforced engagement in immoral anti-social behaviours) which requires stress-relief ie -> activation of the opioid system
Obesity/T2D - High fat/High carb consumption to activate opioid system.
High fat/High carb consumption - Altered gut biome -> IBS/asthma importance of gut bacteria in immune functioning
Altered gut biome (as home to neurotransmitter generation - 95% serotonin from gut bacteria) - Altered mood, increased aggression (question does the bacterial community hold the reins on our happiness)
Increased aggression - sport a culture of competition ie towards professional sport, nationalism
Increased nationalism - crazy wars which serve to kill people who aren't fighting, capitalism (a form of warfare)
Increased capitalism - progressively greater inequality, poverty
Increased poverty - diseases of lack of hygiene eg Ebola virus and all of the many other infections which can be prevented by cleanliness
Increased infectious disease load - etc etc etc

-->-- it's just 1 wholly connected network of human stupidity.

... ... it's all just one network which arises from human beings failing to engage in an education system which does NOT place teaching what is right and what is wrong as of primary concern.

Kunga Dorji
09-22-14, 07:29 AM
My palpitations seem to be entirely triggered by emotional stressors. Usually, just a nervous thought (fight or flight response) would trigger a series of palpitations. They seem to come and go with anxiety levels.

I am very interested in your second paragraph about ANA issue. Can you please explain it as if you were talking to a child. Hopefully, I will understand it. Lol.

Thanks:)

What I found ultimately was that there was a very strong correlation between postural changes and the palpitations.
These postural changes could be triggered by an emotional stimulus but always had a postural element- and could come on with no emotional trigger.
The particular postural changes were
1)slumping out of upright posture (a classic response to feeling dejected- but also the classic postural outcome from a chronic upper cervical malalignment)
2) Neck movement associated with clicking and pain in the lower neck (usually an acute anterior subluxation of the right transverse process of the C7 vertebra on T1- [I did have a lot of time to observe this dynamic-- way too much).
3) Malalignment in the midthoracic spine causing a severe pain in the right upper thoracic area- just to the midline of the right shoulder blade. This proved to be due to a slippage of the base of the right 4th rib out of place- later proven on CT scan.

The point here is that there may be a psychological trigger- but the ultimate pathway that triggers the palpitations will be a physical postural shift that impinge on the function of the central nervous system. This is a basic tenet of the emerging field of somatic psychotherapy.

In any case- a simple way to get your head around this is that postural adjustment and learning to become observant of one's body and to take care of it is actually an easy way to hack the emotional regulation system.
It is easy because it avoids thinking about the negative thoughts that can trigger and maintain the emotional loop and lead to rumination.

Re your second question-- give me 48 hours to reference this properly. If I have not responded please PM me to remind me- I have been working pretty hard- and the textbook I need to reference is in my office. I should get time to check it tomorrow- but will have to see how things run.

Kunga Dorji
09-22-14, 07:35 AM
Thanks.

I find it difficult to explain ADD/ADHD in one mechanism, as there are many possible factors:

-genetic links
-brain high in glutamate
-brain low in iron -> low dopamine synthesis
-brain low in essential fatty acids
-low symphetic tone - like orthostatic intolerance

The best one i've found so far is:

-brain high in oleic acid / N-oleyl-ethanolamide (bodies fat signaling system of fullness) ->
activates serotonin recerptors in the hypothalimus (5HT1?) / opposing NE norepinephrine there ->
depressed cortical dopamine (DA) function, indirectly via (5ht1) and depresses NE release - a natural DA4 receptor activator.
-> increased distractability, impulsiveness, low motivation, disorganised etc

This ties in with the bodies gut-brain system - which involves DA and 5HT.

The other thing suggesting the bodies fat signalling system may play a role, is the finding traces of a dopamine-arachidionic acid conjugate in urine - N-arachidonyl-dopamine. Maybe certain fats may lower DA levels in the brain by forming conjugates with them?

It may be something simpler.
-Oil and fat acts like an insulator in water.
-fats easily pass through the blood/brain barrier
-Fatty meals may lower brain electrical signals by lowering fluid conductivity. Maybe the centres involved with ADD are affected first?


I guess there are things going on that we don't understand...


Honestly I think that chemical factors in ADHD are the bottom of the list of caustive agents- except for lead.

The important thing to consider is that ADHD is an emergent property of consciousness and of the neurology of consciousness.
In this regard we are talking about a phenomenon several orders of organisation above the neurochemical.
That does not mean that neurochemical interventions cannot influence the symptoms.
I think, though, that it is more likely that the chronic stress state engendered by the unmanaged attention problems, dyspraxia and dysgnosia is more likely to influence chemical issues than vice versa.

Kunga Dorji
09-22-14, 08:04 AM
Kunga, are you sure a very high salt diet is OK?

High Sodium ->
more adrenaline release
adrenaline activates adrenergic B1 receptors on the heart->
overactivation of B1 on the heart causes heart conditions (eg stress cardiomyopathy)


The question is likely to be complex- especially as many high salt diets are also high in trans fatty acids.
However the editorial in the 14th August NEJM makes some interesting observations:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMe1407695

Firstly it is clear that in some cases at least that low salt diets as recommended by the American Heart Foundation are positively associated with increased risk of heart disease.

The American Heart association is recommending less than 2.3g per day.

The study in question found that on average diets that deviated far from inputs comparable to the mean of 4.93g of urinary salt excretion were associated with higher mortality.

However- as I outlined above- the population suffering from orthostatic intolerance is a special population and population averages are not applicable to it.

Equally the recommendation for higher salt intake in this group of individuals with symptoms of orthostatic intolerance was made by an associate Professor of Medicine in a University Department with significant standing in the medical world (Melbourne University):
http://www.findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/display/person14590

You all know I have my doubts about over reliance on experts, but when someone of this stature comes out and says something that goes against the grain of the received wisdom-- that is a significant event.

Equally, the individual in question is now getting a substantial reputation as one of the few people in our city (4.5 million people) who know how to handle orthostatic intolerance and also hyperelasticity syndromes.

SB_UK
09-22-14, 08:19 AM
Thanks.

I find it difficult to explain ADD/ADHD in one mechanism, as there are many possible factors:

-genetic links
-brain high in glutamate
-brain low in iron -> low dopamine synthesis
-brain low in essential fatty acids
-low symphetic tone - like orthostatic intolerance

The best one i've found so far is:

-brain high in oleic acid / N-oleyl-ethanolamide (bodies fat signaling system of fullness) ->
activates serotonin recerptors in the hypothalimus (5HT1?) / opposing NE norepinephrine there ->
depressed cortical dopamine (DA) function, indirectly via (5ht1) and depresses NE release - a natural DA4 receptor activator.
-> increased distractability, impulsiveness, low motivation, disorganised etc

This ties in with the bodies gut-brain system - which involves DA and 5HT.

The other thing suggesting the bodies fat signalling system may play a role, is the finding traces of a dopamine-arachidionic acid conjugate in urine - N-arachidonyl-dopamine. Maybe certain fats may lower DA levels in the brain by forming conjugates with them?

It may be something simpler.
-Oil and fat acts like an insulator in water.
-fats easily pass through the blood/brain barrier
-Fatty meals may lower brain electrical signals by lowering fluid conductivity. Maybe the centres involved with ADD are affected first?


I guess there are things going on that we don't understand...

So much more simply -

oleic acid - good - vegan sources eg olive oil
arachidonic acid - bad - sourced from animals

SB_UK
09-22-14, 08:29 AM
Patients with stroke are more likely to have impaired autonomic nervous function and abnormal circadian blood pressure (BP) patterns.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24425127

Cortisol has a circadian pattern of release - presumably chronic stress alters its function across the day ie stress - difficulty sleeping.
And chronic stress (cortisol + noradrenaline are the agents of stress) will alter autonomic nervous system functioning.

Just (di)stress ?

Negative feedback is the key term in the neuro- and endocrine axes - so chronic stress should desensitize the body to adrenaline/cortisol hormones and nor/adrenaline neurotransmitters rendering the entire body off balance.

SB_UK
09-22-14, 08:53 AM
I guess I'm suggesting that we live in a threatening society as opposed to a creative society - where those people who're the most threatening get on - and those who're the most creative lose out.

The structure of society favours survival of the wrong (selfishness) reward system.

The funny thing about the wrong reward system is that it comes up with nonsensical ideas about how it's compatible with morality ie trickle down effect - and it's possible to believe these ideas as long as one keeps one's mind in a community (ie rich people surround themselves with rich people) which generates a model of reality which suits their continued existence.

The rich group that believes that they create the nation's wealth and should be remunerated accordingly.
The poor group that believes that they're the ones that do the real work and should be paid accordingly.

The two party system of right and left which most countries have.

In truth - the rich don't create anything worth supporting, and the poor who make it happen are (likewise) not contributing (no matter how hard they work) - anything of lasting worth.

SB_UK
09-22-14, 09:40 AM
1)slumping out of upright posture (a classic response to feeling dejected- but also the classic postural outcome from a chronic upper cervical malalignment)
2) Neck movement associated with clicking and pain in the lower neck (usually an acute anterior subluxation of the right transverse process of the C7 vertebra on T1- [I did have a lot of time to observe this dynamic-- way too much).
3) Malalignment in the midthoracic spine causing a severe pain in the right upper thoracic area- just to the midline of the right shoulder blade. This proved to be due to a slippage of the base of the right 4th rib out of place- later proven on CT scan.I'm just wondering whether any of these weaknesses would actually reveal themselves in an environment of no distress.

So - presumably there's some sorta' complex genetic basis to complex disorders - but in much the same way - if we were to live in a distress free environment ie non-hierarchical - I'm 100% sure that none of these diseases would ever reveal themsleves.

So all bamboo bridges probably break in the same way when we drive a tank over them - but we were never meant to drive a tank over them.

And there's no way of rebuilding bamboo bridges (eg crazy MHC and TCR genetic associations) - and so we need to find another way.

All of the many crazy HLA allele associations to disease - and not a thing we'll ever be able to do about them specifically ... ... and so why bother ?
Why bother indeed ?

Alleviation of suffering through the individual through mind (knowing what's right and what's wrong) in a wise society - growing towards losing material world attachment (loosely defined = desire to make yourself appear better than other people)
- in actual fact you can work towards being better but not 'to appear', and not in relation 'to other people'.

Other people are neither here nor there in one's personal quest to 'freedom'; bottom line though is that other people must at least not prevent others from completing their journey - requiring a hierarchy-less (no money, no law) global society.

SB_UK
09-22-14, 10:05 AM
dyspraxia and dysgnosia

Still not convinced that learning disabilities aren't simply the result of high blood glucose developmental environments which result in overgrowth (over exuberant growth) in neural systems which're meant to grow slowly.

Possibly in utero - possibly afterwards.

So we've covered the nerve switching to a hyperconnected state in exposure to valproic acid in utero - just wondering whether mother/child failing to maintain a steady blood glucose through distress/diet results in sub-optimal growth of neural systems which relate to the more evolutionarily distal of qualities ie talking sense, writing, calculations.

Interesting

valproic acid in utero -> autism
valproic acid post-natal learning disorder -> correction (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8745384)

Suggestion - elevated blood glucose and over-growth of neural systems relating to learning ie maths, reading, writing.

-*-

Thing about learning disorders.
They don't make sense.

Which means that we must be doing something wrong.

Apparently no dental disease existed as WWII wound up ... ... and since then there has been an explosion in tooth decay.

All down to the stress of living through a global population explosion, fighting for resources to survive - we consume animal protein, high GI carbs and animal fat in massive proportions only to find out that 'pro-growth' leads us to a very bad place.

only 2% of people at all ages living in Nigeria had tooth decay when their diet contained almost no sugar, around 2g per day. This is in stark contrast to the USA, where 92% of adults have experienced tooth decay.http://www.bsdht.org.uk/Dental_and_nutrition_experts_call_for_radical_reth ink_on_free_sugars_intake.html

So why eat so much sugar ?

In 'why equal societies do better' - the most unequal society suffers most disease.

Just the stress of a buncha' essentially equivalent people shoehorning themselves into a hierarchy.

We can't do it.

Nobody's any better than anybody else.

And - with possession of mind - to place oneself as higher in a hierarchy entails that you absolutely need a mind which is logically consistent with hierarchy - which equates to an absence of mind.

There's a reason why proper intelligence (eg Noam Chomsky) favours anarchy.

-*-

Suggestion

Blood glucose helps nerves to generate in 1 axis
-> -> -> ->
imagine a tree with central trunk which vanishes off into the sky with no branches around it (unstable)

Ketone bodies help nerves to re-assocaite in another axis
||
->
||
->
||
->
||
imagine a tree which is optimally branched (bushes out) (stable)

-*-

Post-edit

- that's compatible with the HDAC idea (ie valproic acid as HDACi) and shows us that what we have are 2 paradigms.

We have a physical paradigm and a neural paradigm.
I'm fairly sure that what's meant to happen is that blood glucose gives way to fat (ketone body) as we're born and into mind
- and what happens - what, for the most part shapes human beings, are neural network rearrangement (quality sensing) via ketone body triggered re-association of neural networks exactly as described in the valproic acid model of autism as 'The intense world syndrome'.

So quality sensing neural machinery by virtue of a shift from neural growth on one axis to connection (growth in another axis) on another.

SB_UK
09-22-14, 10:22 AM
The conclusion still appears to be distress (a global society which is not founded upon equality)
-> breaks ->
all human systems (mind and body alike).

Greyhound1
09-23-14, 12:18 AM
What I found ultimately was that there was a very strong correlation between postural changes and the palpitations.
These postural changes could be triggered by an emotional stimulus but always had a postural element- and could come on with no emotional trigger.
The particular postural changes were
1)slumping out of upright posture (a classic response to feeling dejected- but also the classic postural outcome from a chronic upper cervical malalignment)
2) Neck movement associated with clicking and pain in the lower neck (usually an acute anterior subluxation of the right transverse process of the C7 vertebra on T1- [I did have a lot of time to observe this dynamic-- way too much).
3) Malalignment in the midthoracic spine causing a severe pain in the right upper thoracic area- just to the midline of the right shoulder blade. This proved to be due to a slippage of the base of the right 4th rib out of place- later proven on CT scan.

The point here is that there may be a psychological trigger- but the ultimate pathway that triggers the palpitations will be a physical postural shift that impinge on the function of the central nervous system. This is a basic tenet of the emerging field of somatic psychotherapy.

In any case- a simple way to get your head around this is that postural adjustment and learning to become observant of one's body and to take care of it is actually an easy way to hack the emotional regulation system.
It is easy because it avoids thinking about the negative thoughts that can trigger and maintain the emotional loop and lead to rumination.

Re your second question-- give me 48 hours to reference this properly. If I have not responded please PM me to remind me- I have been working pretty hard- and the textbook I need to reference is in my office. I should get time to check it tomorrow- but will have to see how things run.

That's very interesting about the postural element to palpitations. Now that you mention it, during periods of anxiety and OCD I do notice more palpitations when laying on my left side before bed. Usually, rolling over or a deep breath seems to greatly help. I have found Hawthorn Berries to be excellent for stopping or preventing them besides reducing the anxiety.

I feel like the Raynauld's, EDS and the ANA dual pattern are related. I believe that ANA dual pattern is just an indicator for an autoimmune disease or disorder. Raynauld's (primary) and EDS are autoimmune issues and I also have arthritis.

I am curious about any correlations between ADHD, OCD, anxiety and autoimmune disorders/diseases. Thanks for your input!

SB_UK
09-23-14, 03:55 AM
I am curious about any correlations between ADHD, OCD, anxiety and autoimmune disorders/diseases. Thanks for your input!

ADHD - (di)stress (chronic cortisol/adrenaline exposure and consequences)
OCD - memory failure under chronic (di)stress - OCD repetition overcomes memory failure
Anxiety - just the effect of chronic (di)stress ie loss of emotional regulation because you're at the end of your tether
Autoimmune conditions - loss of cortisol sensitivity - cortisol of supreme importance in controlling the immune system
Blood pressure issues - chronic distress - loss of cortisol/adrenalineendocrine and autonomic nervous system functioning
Joint flexibility - chronic distress ie under stress people tense up - chronically tense unable to relax - muscle's unale to stretch - joint inflexibility.

It's just stress.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 04:00 AM
"But it's not manly to be stressed"

We can trump that one though - because you're not properly human (moral) unless you are stressed to breaking point.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 04:16 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_biology
Absolutely excellent wikiP page.


The activity of GABAergic neurones is decreased in generalised anxiety disorder.[/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_%28biology%29#cite_note-50"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_%28biology%29#cite_note-50)

So back around to pro-GABA muscular relaxation using ketosis + absence of distress.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 04:36 AM
What is stressful about life (to the ADDer) ?

People are illogical, logically inconsistent with themselves, logically inconsistent with generally accepted scientific understanding, logically inconsistent with their own survival, logically inconsistent with species survival, logically inconsistent with happy survival of themselves/the species.

How're you meant to have a mind and live in that world ?

Abi
09-23-14, 04:43 AM
Moderator Note

Please stay on topic. Deviation away the topic stated in the OP and discussion which naturally progresses from it will result in the issuing of infractions.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 06:17 AM
tissue hyperelasticity/ orthostatic intolerance
tissue hyperelasticity -> distress (via favouring glutamate nt over GABA nt)

== adder GABA >MATE

orthostatic intolerance -> distress (well known effects of stress on raising, losing sensitive regulation over blood pressure maintenance)

== adder Jo' (heart) Ratey

JUST STRESS.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 07:25 AM
By the late 1970s, stress had become the medical area of greatest concern to the general population ...

The simplest possible explanation of ADHD is general sensitivity.
And of the disorder element of ADHD - general sensitivity triggered (more easily) into painful over-reactivity.

The most exciting aspect of the general sensitivity appears to be in some aspect of communication
- where the cardinal problem with communication (as I see it) - is that it's unidirectional ie people don't care for whether they're understood and prefer for their voice to drown out those of others - more so than any real form of communication.
I absolutely know that I only communicate with 1 other person at a time - and that it takes effort - and that that conversation is bi-directional.
There's some aspect of ADDer sensitivity which relates to meaningful communication and the temptation is to reference telepathy (non woo explanation to follow) - but what we're looking at is some kinda' mirroring of ideas of others - which gives one personal insight into the mind of others.

The mind (itself) must represent something like a species wide mirroring of one another's thought processes - or at least the formation of a species which is able to.

So - mirror neurones of the mind - just as mirror neurones allow the same nerves to fire in the mind of an observer
A mirror neuron is a neuron that fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another.
- so is it very possible that in communication - the neurones firing when another constructs an idea (speech,written) could easily be seen (ie a plausible mechanism exists) to be fired when listening.

Mirror neurone - actor neural firing mirrored by observer.
Speaker neural firing mirrored by listener. <- basis to mind (the integral of personal narratives) when replicated over a species.

Naturally the integral of personal narratives over a species would have to select for the best possible model of existence for individual AND all others
- placing completion of this structure as a necessary pre-requisite in social structure formation.

So - this'd mean that the ADDer sensitivity 'd be tied up in with a deeper level of communication.

But why do you generally criticise this idea ?
Because I don't say anything that's very hard ie use enough words and the point will be conveyed.

So why are you changing your mind now ?
The reason for this property isn't to convey deep communication but is property which arises through social (ADDer) organism emergence.
IE an enforcedly social organism would need some mechanism to keep it together (there are no renegade individuals in social species)
-- but the consequence ie of deeper level of communication isn't there {period} to ensure that we understand one another when we communicate
- more to hold us together as a social species.

OK - so I don't understand ?
The point isn't deeper communication - the point is a fixed social species - and the connection (fixed via mirror neurone) delivers one (of many) end consequences of deeper communication.

OK - so mention others ?
Presumably teaching can operate via this mechanism also ie 'mirroring' another's physical movements when observing another performing some physical manipulation.

So - you're placing basic mirroring (the MNS) as being the defining characteristic of ADDer?
Yes.

Also - important reference to the mirror neurones of the reward system (anterior cingulate cortex).
Why ?
Because there's a mechanism there for us to feel real reward when others feel reward.

Do we feel reward when we directly cause others to feel happy ?
Don't think so - just when we see other people happy.
Though of course that'd (MNS of the reward system) be a great incentive towards making other people happy.

What does the ADDer need ?
To be able to pursue life in the sun without some meathead chasing them to compete.

It doesn't matter if you're a bit better than somebody wlse at something.
There will be millions of people who are better than you - just as there're millions of people who're worse than you at any given thing.

I'd even wager that the average child is faster at 100m than many Olympic 100m champions (from the first half of the 20th century).

Beating people is neither here nor there - get any reward from it - and you're a bit of a zombie duh!! brain.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 08:26 AM
I guess the conclusion then is that as soon as all people are on the same page - we've arrived at the effective end of mind. All people are synchronized and can go off and do whatever people do (but morally since synchronized)
- people do not trouble (distress) other people - people operate in a social environment
- absence of psychophysicosocial stress (distress) leads to alleviation of all of the diseases we call the diseases of Western living - actually global diseases now - of embracing the hierarchical (competitive) model of life (elite governments, elite rich)
- where a few have it all and the majority have insufficient.

ADHD symptoms and tissue hyperelasticity/ orthostatic intolerance.End consequence - human beings relaxed (become physically flexible) and human beings relaxed (heart rate variability, blood pressure problems alleviate).

-*-

What will the future be like for man ?

I'll put in a quick vote for exercising in silence in the sun with a dog - and lots and lots of poop bags.

Children and errant dog poops are like magnetic north and south - of particular attraction to one another.

SB_UK
09-23-14, 09:30 AM
By the late 1970s, stress had become the medical area of greatest concern to the general population ...By the 1990s, "stress" had become an integral part of modern scientific understanding in all areas of physiology and human functioning, and one of the great metaphors of Western life.And by 2010 1 in 3 people in the UK had pre-diabetes from stress propelling them into high fat/high carb activation of the opioid system.
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/06June/Pages/One-in-three-adults-in-England-has-prediabetes.aspx

Something needs to change.
And we all know just what.

Distress-free environment (no power hierarchies in society) + A change in diet.

Kunga Dorji
09-23-14, 06:00 PM
That's very interesting about the postural element to palpitations. Now that you mention it, during periods of anxiety and OCD I do notice more palpitations when laying on my left side before bed. Usually, rolling over or a deep breath seems to greatly help. I have found Hawthorn Berries to be excellent for stopping or preventing them besides reducing the anxiety.

I feel like the Raynauld's, EDS and the ANA dual pattern are related. I believe that ANA dual pattern is just an indicator for an autoimmune disease or disorder. Raynauld's (primary) and EDS are autoimmune issues and I also have arthritis.

I am curious about any correlations between ADHD, OCD, anxiety and autoimmune disorders/diseases. Thanks for your input!

The association between palpitations and lying on the left side is easy to explain on at least one level-
when you lie on your left side the heart rests on the chest wall and the heart beat is much more obviously feelable!

It is interesting that the Buddha even recommended a specific sleeping posture- lying on one's right side- legs out reasonably straight- head pointing north.
Given the above the lying on the right side question is obvious.
The legs out straight will avoid exacerbating a tendency to flexed posture.
The head pointing north bit is interesting-- was he aware of electromagnetic influences?
On that note body scanning meditation greatly enhances ones body awareness- and it has got to the point now where I can on a good day identify active acupuncture meridians in my arms-- so it is not implausable that a master meditator might identify such an effect.
There is now increasing concern about the effects of electromagnetic entrainment of brainwave state through electromagnetic field pollution from our electrical devices.


Hawthorn berries-- interesting.
You know they are being re-named Goji berries and sold at a much higher price for the same product?
Commercial Bulls#!ttery-- you have to laugh sometimes!

Greyhound1
09-23-14, 11:54 PM
The association between palpitations and lying on the left side is easy to explain on at least one level-
when you lie on your left side the heart rests on the chest wall and the heart beat is much more obviously feelable!

It is interesting that the Buddha even recommended a specific sleeping posture- lying on one's right side- legs out reasonably straight- head pointing north.
Given the above the lying on the right side question is obvious.
The legs out straight will avoid exacerbating a tendency to flexed posture.
The head pointing north bit is interesting-- was he aware of electromagnetic influences?
On that note body scanning meditation greatly enhances ones body awareness- and it has got to the point now where I can on a good day identify active acupuncture meridians in my arms-- so it is not implausable that a master meditator might identify such an effect.
There is now increasing concern about the effects of electromagnetic entrainment of brainwave state through electromagnetic field pollution from our electrical devices.


Hawthorn berries-- interesting.
You know they are being re-named Goji berries and sold at a much higher price for the same product?
Commercial Bulls#!ttery-- you have to laugh sometimes!

You bring up another great point with the electromagnetic brain entrainment causing issues. I use binaural beats for entrainment and been impressed with its ability to change my mood. I tried another brain entrainment with too many Delta and Alpha waves and got physically sick and was an emotional mess. I seem to respond best to Gamma at 40hz but still exploring. It has totally convinced me of its power and potential influences whether for better or worse. This one can have a very positive influence on me.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-kwDVc3tKliM/binaural_beats_powerful_concentration_focus_manife station_gamma_40_hz/

I am curious what type of BP numbers you would expect with hyper elasticity and orthostatic intolerance. Mine are usually around 120/63. Would you expect to have low diastolic pressure with orthostatic intolerance?

Greyhound1
09-24-14, 12:50 AM
Here is some interesting info. regarding Hawthorn studies from the University of Maryland.

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/hawthorn

SB_UK
09-24-14, 10:10 AM
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/better-than-goji-berries/

barberries - nice and tasty!
dried indian gooseberries (amla) - funny tasting ok - citrusy.

SB_UK
09-24-14, 10:37 AM
General point

soluble fibre
anti-oxidant

are comng out as our top two requirements from food.

soluble fibre -> SCFA -> ketosis
stress -> blood glucose elevation -> oxidative stress <- partially ameliorated by anti-oxidants

Soluble fibre - vegan source (Indian psyllium husk)
Anti-oxidant - vegan source (Indian amla)
-> completely missing in the Western diet.

Soluble fibre (lentils,onions,garlic) + anti-oxidant (turmeric) = dal (simply the best food in the world)

Ayurvedic medicine to the rescue !


So - eliminate distress (a fair society) and change diet to a low GI fresh organic seasonal anti-oxidant and soluble fibre rich variety.

The USA - maximises distress through highest level of inequality in a developed nation and has an animal, processed carbohydrate -rich diet without the 2 components (soluble fibre, anti-oxidants) which are required.

But what of protein and fat, minerals and vitamins (as carbs aren't a required food) ?
vegan food is awash with all of those.

Still attracted to cheese though ? Just low levels, I think is the point.
Holy cows (Italian use of parmesan for correcting intestinal problems) (and ayurvedic use of yoghourt for the same reason) Barliman.

SB_UK
09-24-14, 11:01 AM
Holy cows (Italian use of parmesan for correcting intestinal problems) (and ayurvedic use of yoghourt for the same reason) Barliman.


And yet another important Indo-Italian contribution to health.

http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/030612p40.shtml

turmeric
ginger
oregano
cinnamon
clove

-*-

So we have USA as the home of all things useless (competitive sport, overpriced education, cosmetic surgery, nasty animal-rich processed food, inequality) and dotted around the globe we have a collection of 'quality' equivalents (amateur sport, free education, yoga, veganism, anarchism).

This represents the classical battle between the primitive (selfish,competitive) reward system (which is lost with mind) and the higher (social,collaborative) reward system which is gained with mind.

Don't form a society around the lesser of the 2 reward systems - before you know it you'll have gun toting religious fundamentalist meat eating gangs swarming around your neighbourhood with a gun nestled away inside the religious book they proudly display; just in case they gotta' put a bullet in yo heeeeed.

Greyhound1
09-24-14, 04:45 PM
Hawthorn berries-- interesting.
You know they are being re-named Goji berries and sold at a much higher price for the same product?
Commercial Bulls#!ttery-- you have to laugh sometimes!

I am not sure if you were kidding, but Gogi and Hawthorn berries are not the same thing. They both provide different benefits.

Goji berries (Lycium barbarum)


Hawthorn Berry (Crataegus oxyacantha)

Kunga Dorji
09-24-14, 05:31 PM
You bring up another great point with the electromagnetic brain entrainment causing issues. I use binaural beats for entrainment and been impressed with its ability to change my mood. I tried another brain entrainment with too many Delta and Alpha waves and got physically sick and was an emotional mess. I seem to respond best to Gamma at 40hz but still exploring. It has totally convinced me of its power and potential influences whether for better or worse. This one can have a very positive influence on me.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-kwDVc3tKliM/binaural_beats_powerful_concentration_focus_manife station_gamma_40_hz/

I am curious what type of BP numbers you would expect with hyper elasticity and orthostatic intolerance. Mine are usually around 120/63. Would you expect to have low diastolic pressure with orthostatic intolerance?


The BP numbers I have seen vary a hell of a lot. There are lots of variables here- and fitness, posture (upright posture= core activation) and weight are the biggies.

What I am looking for here is
Symptoms
1) Symptoms of acute orthostatic intolerance: dizziness/lightheadedness and or visual changes (blurring, transient loss of vision, seeing stars) if you stand up fast.
These are significant even if they occur only infrequently.
2) Symptoms of subacute orthostatic intolerance - ie symptoms of hyperactive or inattentive ADHD that occur after sitting or standing for a while-- +/- all the other symptoms listed in the long posts at the start of this thread e-- INCLUDING migraine, or irritable bowel syndrome
3) Symptoms of naturally seeking more salt in the diet (that is your body telling you what it needs).
4) Symptoms that are worse when overheated, sleep deprived, dehydrated, or flushed due to alcohol intake.

Signs
Affected individuals are usually very pale but their facial colour will improve when they lie down.
Heart rate that is high - ie above 80 when sitting and when they have not been running or walking very fast because they are late for their appointment (that is VERY common) :)
Heart rate that increases significantly on standing after lying down for 5 minutes, or continues to increase on prolonged standing
( Normal on shifting from sitting to standing is regarded as an increase of 10-15 beats per minute immediately on standing from seated position- returning to baseline or near to baseline within 2 minutes of standing).
Blood pressure that is low end ( ie under 110 systolic and INCREASES when lying down- that is the reverse of normal)
Any drop in blood pressure when standing up- or on being forced to stand still and not fidget for 10 minutes.

These signs can be intermittent and will always be worse if the patient is tired or underhydrated-- also provocative factors for ADHD symptoms.

Kunga Dorji
09-24-14, 05:33 PM
I am not sure if you were kidding, but Gogi and Hawthorn berries are not the same thing. They both provide different benefits.

Goji berries (Lycium barbarum)


Hawthorn Berry (Crataegus oxyacantha)
However the Goji berries marketed locally have been hawthorn berries-- I assumed that that was a general phenomenon. It would appear that i was ill informed on that point.
Thanks for the correction.

Kunga Dorji
09-25-14, 04:26 AM
General point

soluble fibre
anti-oxidant

are comng out as our top two requirements from food.

soluble fibre -> SCFA -> ketosis
stress -> blood glucose elevation -> oxidative stress <- partially ameliorated by anti-oxidants

Soluble fibre - vegan source (Indian psyllium husk)
Anti-oxidant - vegan source (Indian amla)
-> completely missing in the Western diet.

Soluble fibre (lentils,onions,garlic) + anti-oxidant (turmeric) = dal (simply the best food in the world)

Ayurvedic medicine to the rescue !


So - eliminate distress (a fair society) and change diet to a low GI fresh organic seasonal anti-oxidant and soluble fibre rich variety.

The USA - maximises distress through highest level of inequality in a developed nation and has an animal, processed carbohydrate -rich diet without the 2 components (soluble fibre, anti-oxidants) which are required.

But what of protein and fat, minerals and vitamins (as carbs aren't a required food) ?
vegan food is awash with all of those.

Still attracted to cheese though ? Just low levels, I think is the point.
Holy cows (Italian use of parmesan for correcting intestinal problems) (and ayurvedic use of yoghourt for the same reason) Barliman.


Parmesan ? Interesting-- on multiple levels- including flavour.
Can you reference that?
( Seriously- I am interested- I have a passion for the stuff and am being told off for eating too much of it! A scientific reference or two would keep me out of trouble :) )

SB_UK
09-25-14, 05:51 AM
Parmesan ? Interesting-- on multiple levels- including flavour.
Can you reference that?
( Seriously- I am interested- I have a passion for the stuff and am being told off for eating too much of it! A scientific reference or two would keep me out of trouble :) )

I read this kinda thing:
"It's interesting to note that Parmesan is reputed to have medicinal qualities. Doctors in the production region often prescribe it to children with intestinal problems ..."
and then asked some Italian chefs.

http://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-1527,00.html

Gut feeling is that certain yoghourts / cheeses may be consistent with health ... ... don't know though.

Far favour prebiotics (soluble fibre) over probiotics though.

Not sure about dairy yet.

SB_UK
09-25-14, 06:15 AM
There's something really attractive about eg the Polyface farm system.

It seems really efficient.

Cows eat grass - Cows produce milk - Cows poop grow maggots - Chicken eat maggots - Chickens produce eggs - Grass fertilized for crops - the cows and chickens then move on to another field to use.

However - with milk comes lactose and casein.

However lactose is wiped out in yoghout/cheese.

But casein ?

Also there's the problem of high French cuisine being dairy (cream,butter) heavy.

There's a sorta' battle between gourmet and gourmand here - but I'm not sure whether all gourmet ingredients naturally fall into health promoting.

SB_UK
09-25-14, 07:16 AM
What I've noticed in gourmet settings is really the incredibly small serving size.

Perhaps it's as simple as that.

A tiny amount of proper foods - our senses will be open to that form of exposure given a life without distress which forces us into gourmand.

In the UK - we've a TV program from USA called 'diners, dives and drive throughs' - and the food is all simply high animal meat, high animal fat, high carb, high salt, high sweet ... ... it's the absolute antithesis of a quality restaurant.

-*-

So the logic for parmesan was - max cheesey taste with only very small amount of cheese required.
More aged cheeses higher in probiotics (said so in links followed - but the opposite suggested in other links).

-*-

Raw vegan is screaming out to be accepted ... ... just seems a shame to lose the rest - don't know ... ...

Certainly the world is up in arms vs greenhouse gas emissions of the cow (!!) ... ... but the happy animal-based farm of animals working in conjunction is a romantic ideal which is difficult to consign to the dustbin.

-*-

Fingers crossed - human appetite regulation will correct itself to wanting little in an environment without distress.

IE we'll be free to engage in a little of everything natural - that is, that exactly as we see in rat park - an environment without distress will not drive the rats to morphine or in our case the 50:50 mix of fat to carb which activates the same circuitry as morphine.

SB_UK
09-25-14, 07:30 AM
Parmesan is probably the most umami ingredient in western cookery
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/apr/09/umami-fifth-taste

problems problems !!

SB_UK
09-25-14, 08:34 AM
Casein is one of nature's richest sources of glutamate

Grrr!

Looks like dairy's days are numbered.

Similarly glu-[tamate]-ten.

Excitotoxins.

SB_UK
09-25-14, 09:28 AM
Some studies have shown the prevalence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence) in the USA to be an estimated 34% of the adult population ... Metabolic syndrome and prediabetes appear to be the same disorder, just diagnosed by a different set of biomarkers.

1 in 3 people in UK with pre-diabetes.

So - would like to define a diet and exercise regime to combat this problem.

But it would never be taken up as long as the underlying problem is in place.

Human distress from a hierarchical (power) society.

We all know what the human equivalent of rat park 'd be - and that's a place where one does not constantly have to continually watch your back from marauding lawyers, marauding car mechanics, marauding cowboy builder, marauding fast food salesmen, marauding advertising execs, marauding pharmaceutical company rep ... ... ... all with their hands in your pockets

- the solution to the current diabesity epidemic which is due to take down millions of people through unpleasant lives to messy deaths - and is due to crash all national health services partic in countries with ageing populations


- is simply a fair society.

-*-

But what would people eat, how'd they exercise ?

Don't worry - it'll all come out in the wash.
We've a phsyiological/psychological homeostatic mechanism running - which as long as it's not disrupted (through chronic distress)
- can guide our exercise/dietary decisions.

Two cardinal (the most obvious) signs of disease of Western living being:
ADHD symptoms and tissue hyperelasticity/ orthostatic intolerance
high blood pressure and back pain.

Both remedied in a world without hierarchies of power.

SB_UK
09-25-14, 10:06 AM
- the solution to the current diabesity epidemic which is due to take down millions of people through unpleasant lives to messy deaths - and is due to crash all national health services partic in countries with ageing populations


- is simply a fair society.

-*-

But what would people eat, how'd they exercise ?
Don't worry - it'll all come out in the wash.



==

Why is it, for example, that in 2014 in the same British city the average life expectancy for a man in one post code will be 82 but just a few miles away it's 54?
His work has influenced politicians around the globe.

His pioneering research is often at odds with wider societal concerns over what are known these days as lifestyle choices - like smoking, not taking any exercise or eating junk ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/desert-island-discs/castaway/56dc9508

Not at odds - more - there's a hierarchy of importance or aetiological basis to differing life expectancies - and it isn't useful to consider anything other than the root cause of the problem.

Inequality.

-*-

Michael Marmot is right - there is an optimal lifestyle - but you're not free to choose it unless you're in a fair society.
And when you're in a fair society - all of the short term considered stress-relieving poor lifestyle decisions people are forced to make (eating excessively, the wrong foods, resisting exercise, alcoholism ... ... ) in an unequal distressful society - simply cease to be an issue.

Why equal societies do better

Wholly sweet and sour pork balls Barliman; ticks all the boxes for comfort food.

Sweet.
Salty.
Umami (gluten, MSG and pork).

Kunga Dorji
09-25-14, 06:17 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_biology
Absolutely excellent wikiP page.



So back around to pro-GABA muscular relaxation using ketosis + absence of distress.
We are still back in the fanciful world of molecular biological determinism.

Most of this process is directed by Mind- whether in it's conscious or its unconscious manifestations.

One of the key inferences to behind this thread is the key role of muscular core activation in maintaining healthy autonomic function. Healthy autonomic function and its associated regulation of blood pressure and tissue perfusion.

Healthy autonomic function provides the platform for emotional stability and regulation.

That in turn provides a stable platform in which top down operations of executive function are not continually being driven by phantom bottom up emotional hijacking of our attention.

The whole glutamate- GABA dynamic, the whole dynamic of sugar hunger and its unhealthy metabolism are actually driven by the deranged autonomic function driven by failure of core activation.

Now the dynamics of this failure of core activation are not only the outcomes of a hierarchical society.

We each mutually reinforce the negative impacts of this process- because we all glorify academic and intellectual work to the extent that none of us are living the healthy, active, outdoors lives to which our genes have evolved to prepare us.

That dynamic, that fall from a basic healthy human existence, the obsession with sitting in chairs all day spending hours fitting in with never ending demands for unnecessary paperwork, drives the deranged physiological state which causes our distress.

That physiological state drives the crisis mentality that makes hoarding wealth and getting ahead of everybody else seem like a good idea. Then that mentality drives the need for rules and regulations and endless paperwork to prove our compliance with the laws designed to protect us from people who act like that. Then those laws create more paperwork, a more unhealthy lifestyle, more distress and more bad behaviour.

It is the perfect biopsychosocial feedback loop. However we all live in this society and virtually none of us are awake enough to see that it is the requirements for survival in this society that are making us ill.

ADHD is one of the diseases of civilisation (to borrow a term that Dr John Ratey has popularised in his new book.

Equally- except for very extreme cases so are the disease states associated with tissue hyperelasticity. Most of these conditions would not actually cause illness for those living a healthy way of life- which came at least half way close to resembling some of the key features of hunter gatherer existence.

The bottom line is it is not actually possible to work 40-60 ours in an office, get very little exercise or sun and not suffer damage because of doing so.

SB_UK
09-26-14, 07:10 AM
failure of core activation

developing core strength (http://joyofbarefootrunning.com/health-nutrition/developing-core-and-back-strength/) [just by virtue of moving]
Given that every stride we take while running barefoot necessitates a more vigorous recalibration of our posture and balance than that during either standing or walking, it quite naturally builds strength in those very same core muscles.Have to wear something on the feet - don't know if the minimalist shoes sufficiently mimic barefoot running.

I use aquashoes for running now.

-*-

Dairy
Casein (glutamate) [stimulant] -> <- Caseomorphin [narcotic]
(wikiP/speedball (drug))

Wheat
Gluten (glutamate) [stimulant] -> <- Gluten exorphin [narcotic]
(wikiP/speedball (drug))

So - is it possible that the foods we're eating are (in addition to straight psychological distress) resulting in autonomic nervous system derangement ?

We can get soluble fibre, anti-oxidants, vits, minerals, essentials fats and protein from low GI fruit and veg.
No narcotic.
No stimulant.

SB_UK
09-26-14, 10:09 AM
Just thought - isn't leaning back on your chair - the thing that every schoolkid is criticised for doing - I'm doing it now -

- actually a core workout ?

Kunga Dorji
09-27-14, 01:17 AM
The simplest possible explanation of ADHD is general sensitivity.


Now that is true at one level-- but the question is "What is the physical mechanism that mediates that sensitivity?

Now it is commonly accepted that emotional experience is an embodied experience- and that the physical sensations that accompany emotions are a necessary part of that experience.

Anyone who observes closely will note that the bulk of the physical feelings that make the key signature of any emotion are due to alterations in autonomic function- both general and local.

Antonio Damasio is much more specific about this dynamic- the "emotion programs" contain preset packages of autonomic activation preparing the organism for finding a new metabolic homeostasis necessary to support the activity that the emotion is predicting is likely to be necessary.

In addition, the interoceptive feedback from body to brain, actually informs the brain of the current emotional state.

By definition, the hyperelastic individual will have a greater amount of difficulty self regulating emotion--( and deficient emotional self regulation is a hallmark of ADHD). That difficulty will make the task of remaining calm under pressure much harder for that person- and the situation will then be complicated by feedback loops that are created by conscious recollection of previous failures and by "fear of fear" feedback loops that occur as autonomic regulation is lost in crisis situations.

What we have here in the understanding that connective tissue elasticity varies between individuals and that that must, by definition, impinge upon autonomic regulation is a very elegant model which explains
1) Why some individuals are more sensitive than others.
2) Why such individuals are so prone to emotional trauma.
3) More broadly why there should be an association between athleticism and early death ( I am still waiting for that reference SB :) )
4) A totally new set of explanations for the genetic side of ADHD.
5) How stimulants work (increasing cerebrtal blood flow being quite possible more important than increasing dopaminergic firing).
6) Why mindfulness strategies that rely on training in emotional self regulation should be expected to work.
7) Why so many of us with ADHD do better when we are fit- and deteriorate so badly when we lose fitness.
8) Why so many of us ADHD types acquire so many injuries that we can't continue our fitness regimens.


And probably a good number of other knotty little medical problems as well.

Kunga Dorji
09-27-14, 01:33 AM
Now that is true at one level-- but the question is "What is the physical mechanism that mediates that sensitivity?

Now it is commonly accepted that emotional experience is an embodied experience- and that the physical sensations that accompany emotions are a necessary part of that experience.

Anyone who observes closely will note that the bulk of the physical feelings that make the key signature of any emotion are due to alterations in autonomic function- both general and local.

Antonio Damasio is much more specific about this dynamic- the "emotion programs" contain preset packages of autonomic activation preparing the organism for finding a new metabolic homeostasis necessary to support the activity that the emotion is predicting is likely to be necessary.

In addition, the interoceptive feedback from body to brain, actually informs the brain of the current emotional state.

By definition, the hyperelastic individual will have a greater amount of difficulty self regulating emotion--( and deficient emotional self regulation is a hallmark of ADHD). That difficulty will make the task of remaining calm under pressure much harder for that person- and the situation will then be complicated by feedback loops that are created by conscious recollection of previous failures and by "fear of fear" feedback loops that occur as autonomic regulation is lost in crisis situations.

What we have here in the understanding that connective tissue elasticity varies between individuals and that that must, by definition, impinge upon autonomic regulation is a very elegant model which explains
1) Why some individuals are more sensitive than others.
2) Why such individuals are so prone to emotional trauma.
3) More broadly why there should be an association between athleticism and early death ( I am still waiting for that reference SB :) )
4) A totally new set of explanations for the genetic side of ADHD.
5) How stimulants work (increasing cerebrtal blood flow being quite possible more important than increasing dopaminergic firing).
6) Why mindfulness strategies that rely on training in emotional self regulation should be expected to work.
7) Why so many of us with ADHD do better when we are fit- and deteriorate so badly when we lose fitness.
8) Why so many of us ADHD types acquire so many injuries that we can't continue our fitness regimens.


And probably a good number of other knotty little medical problems as well.

Now this video gives an excellent illustration of how the autonomic system and the feedback responses associated with it can trigger more powerful responses in the amygdala and offline the prefrontal cortex. This is a first rate illustration of some of the points I have rather clumsily outlined above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkEcpBU3TpE

Kunga Dorji
09-27-14, 11:07 AM
Just thought - isn't leaning back on your chair - the thing that every schoolkid is criticised for doing - I'm doing it now -

- actually a core workout ?

See Amy Cuddy on "Power Posing":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmR2A9TnIso

Kunga Dorji
09-27-14, 11:09 AM
Now that is true at one level-- but the question is "What is the physical mechanism that mediates that sensitivity?

Now it is commonly accepted that emotional experience is an embodied experience- and that the physical sensations that accompany emotions are a necessary part of that experience.

Anyone who observes closely will note that the bulk of the physical feelings that make the key signature of any emotion are due to alterations in autonomic function- both general and local.

Antonio Damasio is much more specific about this dynamic- the "emotion programs" contain preset packages of autonomic activation preparing the organism for finding a new metabolic homeostasis necessary to support the activity that the emotion is predicting is likely to be necessary.

In addition, the interoceptive feedback from body to brain, actually informs the brain of the current emotional state.

By definition, the hyperelastic individual will have a greater amount of difficulty self regulating emotion--( and deficient emotional self regulation is a hallmark of ADHD). That difficulty will make the task of remaining calm under pressure much harder for that person- and the situation will then be complicated by feedback loops that are created by conscious recollection of previous failures and by "fear of fear" feedback loops that occur as autonomic regulation is lost in crisis situations.

What we have here in the understanding that connective tissue elasticity varies between individuals and that that must, by definition, impinge upon autonomic regulation is a very elegant model which explains
1) Why some individuals are more sensitive than others.
2) Why such individuals are so prone to emotional trauma.
3) More broadly why there should be an association between athleticism and early death ( I am still waiting for that reference SB :) )
4) A totally new set of explanations for the genetic side of ADHD.
5) How stimulants work (increasing cerebrtal blood flow being quite possible more important than increasing dopaminergic firing).
6) Why mindfulness strategies that rely on training in emotional self regulation should be expected to work.
7) Why so many of us with ADHD do better when we are fit- and deteriorate so badly when we lose fitness.
8) Why so many of us ADHD types acquire so many injuries that we can't continue our fitness regimens.


And probably a good number of other knotty little medical problems as well.

A small aside-- it appears that I have a window of opportunity to initiate some research on this one through Victoria University in Melbourne.
Our practice manager might just come up with the goods.

SB_UK
09-29-14, 10:42 AM
What we have here in the understanding that connective tissue elasticity varies between individuals and that that must, by definition, impinge upon autonomic regulation is a very elegant model which explains
1) Why some individuals are more sensitive than others.
2) Why such individuals are so prone to emotional trauma.
3) More broadly why there should be an association between athleticism and early death ( I am still waiting for that reference SB :) )
4) A totally new set of explanations for the genetic side of ADHD.
5) How stimulants work (increasing cerebrtal blood flow being quite possible more important than increasing dopaminergic firing).
6) Why mindfulness strategies that rely on training in emotional self regulation should be expected to work.
7) Why so many of us with ADHD do better when we are fit- and deteriorate so badly when we lose fitness.
8) Why so many of us ADHD types acquire so many injuries that we can't continue our fitness regimens.

1 - level of distress, frequency of exposure to distressor - so the individual who encounters a heavy distressor, and more frequently will be closer to the end of their tether.

2 - See 1 but also see ADHD as a condition of heightened sensitivity.
Like the mind - and so at the level of mind - what does this increased level of sensitivity mean ? I'd simply suggest sensitivity to logical inconsistencies with individual/species wellbeing.
Survival compromised models of behaviour -> Stress.
So at level of mind - there'd have to be some way of not being able to avert one's eyes from individual/species demise through addiction elsewhere (most likely local disconnected models of reality) ie the lawyer might believe they're doing something worthwhile unless the lawyer has a mind which sees themselves (what they're doing (ie maintaining and worsening human inequality)) from an objective viewpoint.
So - the inability not to see reality from an objective viewpoint/from species perspective ie a viewpoint which is in line with a theory of evolution as optimising possibility of survival - 'd give rise to one of my favourite definitions of our increased sensitivity.
With the capacity to 'avert one's eyes' - ie no sensitivity to logical inconsistencies wrt human survival - you're a happy member of a corrupt short-sighted extinction-ready society.

3 Can't find the epidemiology text - so eg:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/10002343/Performers-and-athletes-die-younger.html
How about we've only so many heart beats and to maximise longevity we want to decrease resting heart rate (10 minute Interval training) and then just live.
Also - extreme exercise sounds a lot like what the body 'd be like in fight/flight - which reduces longevity - so perhaps that's part of the mechanism too ?

4 If we're looking at the emergence of a new species - then that in itself would give rise to apparent heritability of the trait.
But what's the core difference between ADDer and nonADDer ?
I like the mind example above ie AND rather than EOR mind types.
But I also like the 'more' aerobic model of ADHD ie more sensitive to blood glucose variation.
We'd expect something different at the level of mind.
However = the metabolic angle plays into the one aspect of huyman biology which is required for survival ie food/shelter or ATP/uncoupling via the mitochondria.
So ... ... not keen to lose either - they're both pivotal in survival ie stress usually broken into psych and physical - and we've a model in ADHD (as described above) to combat both psych and physical stress through a moral individual within moral social context and living a ketogenic lifestyle (food, fasting and exercise).
Exercise ? But you've just suggested that you're shortening your life through stealing heart beats ... ... maybe ... ...

5 This could feed into a more aerobic mitochondrial nature to the ketone loving human ADDer brain.

6 Stress alleviation -
taking the mind away from thinking (argh!!!) and into sensory experience.
'Too much mind on the matter, the spirit gets forgotten about' <- Rush
The mind is a relatively recent emergent property - where it leads is what we're examining currently -
- see recent x 2 threads on ADD and relationship to trauma
ie generation of a mind which understands and is not so attracted to knowledge (disconnected from the whole).
Basic point - the evolution of the mind from 'knowledge centric' to 'understanding centric' serves to devolve the individual away from ego - an interesting transition - to people who live in a world which celebrates the ego
- because one can't help but try (and follow) the path of others into ego (ie self discrimination through competition)
- sadly though 'we don't get no satisfaction' when we try 'and we try, we try, and we try' ... ... getting more stressed as we strive towards achievements which provide us with no honest reward.

7 Loss of fitness - I'd have thought correlates with all cause mortality ?
http://hmst3433.homestead.com/files/Blair2.pdf
However - sensitivity would make tendency towards asthma/allergy/diabetes/obesity result in lack of fitness -> all cause mortality more common in ADDers.

8 Effects of stress of sensitivity to pain.
Tendency to muscular stiffness -> loss of flexibility - making injuries more common <- personal observation.
It just seems to me that people who're most flexible (better posture, more mechanically comfortable) appear to radiate health.

SB_UK
09-29-14, 10:48 AM
So summarising all of that.

ADDers are different to nonADDers in sensitivity to the 2 types of stress.
IE have a different optimum physiology and psychology to the nonADDer.

Psychological / Physical.

Psychological -<- tendency towards logical consistency with individual/species wellbeing in ADDer -<- stress triggered in current immoral society
Physical <- tendency towards a body running happily under mitochondrial aerobic respiration - using the ketone -<- stress triggered in high GI adrenaline junkie blood glucose elevation world - where your every 'pleasure' decreases your longevity.

SB_UK
09-29-14, 11:00 AM
So - eliminate distress (a fair society) and change diet to a low GI fresh organic seasonal anti-oxidant and soluble fibre rich variety.

=
An environmentally permissive (facilitating) environment for an optimised (ADDer) physiological / psychological environment.

It should be mentioned than nonADDers will do well under this model also - so everyone's a winner.

SB_UK
09-29-14, 11:08 AM
So.

From these 2 novel definitions of type ADDer.

We can then regenerate under a model of stress (distress) in current society all diseases (metabolic, immunological, mechanical, addictive, mental, social, learning, motivational, cancerous, neurological etc etc) which we're at risk from.

And we can generate a model of future society in which our key sensitivities (our new requirements at the level of mind and body) are not contravened into chronic distress.

Simplest definition of ADDer:
Sensitivity over-stimulated or Sensitivity sensitized.

HADDaball
10-08-14, 11:33 PM
I can relate to the thread's idea.

Eating a big meal can hamper attention.

Like the body diverts blood to the gut to digest the meal.

Less blood to the brain.

but does it explain kids running around pulling things off shelves.. ?

HADDaball
10-09-14, 12:20 AM
Not sure the idea covers all the bases..

If it was purely a blood flow thing, people with low blood pressure would have ADHD. But there would be evidence linking hypotension and ADHD.

Also, if it was true, you'd be able to treat ADHD with ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, but if they were most effective, they would be used for that purpose.

Kunga Dorji
10-09-14, 09:34 AM
Not sure the idea covers all the bases..

If it was purely a blood flow thing, people with low blood pressure would have ADHD. But there would be evidence linking hypotension and ADHD.

Also, if it was true, you'd be able to treat ADHD with ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, but if they were most effective, they would be used for that purpose.

It is not just blood pressure- it is the rapid and efficient re-deployment of blood flow in response to postural shifts.

I have examined maybe 30 consecutive patients this week- few actually had a drop in blood pressure when standing, but when required to stand still for 5 minutes virtually all developed a significant and physiologically abnormal elevation in pulse rate (indicating a stress response), started fidgeting turned white in the face ( and to all intents and purpose blood flow to the face [external carotid artery] fluctuates in sync with blood flow to the brain [external carotid artery]).

Much of the hyperactivity in ADHD children can be explained by stress response- indeed from the position of Prof Stephen Porges- all hyperactive ADHD behaviours are clinical signs of a stress response. Porges is now recognised as the world's leading authority on the stress response and its linkage to social engagement behaviour.

It is actually quite easy to at least briefly turn off ADHD behaviours by using biofeedback to train into a balanced state of autonomic nervous system activity known as "coherence" (in which the heart rate fluctuates smoothly in sync with respiratory rate). The tool is called the em Wave. I often use it with patients. [Getting that patten to hold permanently is much harder- but the em Wave is a great thing to use prior to a challenging job interview for example.

Ephedrine and pseudoephedrine do not work well for ADHD because they cause too much elevation of heart rate and tremor and simulate an anxiety state- thus negating the benefit of the improved cerebral blood flow.

Now re hyperactive ADHD behaviour in children, I have yet to examine a single hyperactive ADHD child who does not have significant boney malalignment in the upper cervical spine. When you actually palpate the relevant landmarks these children are extremely tender over the transverse process of the atlas. Hyperactivity in these cases is driven by physical pain- but this pain has been present for most of these children's life- so they are often so used to it that they become less consciously aware of it than they should be (until you go to examine their neck and they go ballistic!)

The trouble is that ADHD is being defined as a psychological problem and people forget to examine patients presenting with psychological problems. It is extremely poor and substandard medical practice- but this low standard of clinical observation is now near universal.

Now there is a link here- lax connective tissues predispose to spinal malalignments, and to unstable blood pressure control. Spinal malalignments also destabilise blood pressure control and directly cause clumsiness, balance problems and dyslexia in many cases.

There are also strong statistical associations between dyslexia and balance problems and dyslexia and ADHD.

Connective tissue laxity is heritable (as is ADHD) and is associated with a cluster of syndromes that run in the same families:
ADHD, autism, OCD, Tourettes, anxiety disorders, mood disorders, premenstrual dysphoric disorder, irritable bowel syndrome, migraine, fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome.

When the cluster of ALL the conditions that are concurrent in ADHD families is added up-- we see that the problem is far more complex than just dopamine.
Pleasingly complex actually- this is getting very interesting.

HADDaball
10-09-14, 08:11 PM
It is not just blood pressure- it is the rapid and efficient re-deployment of blood flow in response to postural shifts.

I have examined maybe 30 consecutive patients this week- few actually had a drop in blood pressure when standing, but when required to stand still for 5 minutes virtually all developed a significant and physiologically abnormal elevation in pulse rate (indicating a stress response), started fidgeting turned white in the face ( and to all intents and purpose blood flow to the face [external carotid artery] fluctuates in sync with blood flow to the brain [external carotid artery]).

Much of the hyperactivity in ADHD children can be explained by stress response- indeed from the position of Prof Stephen Porges- all hyperactive ADHD behaviours are clinical signs of a stress response. Porges is now recognised as the world's leading authority on the stress response and its linkage to social engagement behaviour.


Did you have any controls (non ADHD children) to see if there was a difference?

All kids could have elastic arteries and tissues. Kids are generally flexable.


I'm curious how clonidine helps ADHD. It stimulates adrenergic alpha2 receptors, which lowers the release of noradrenaline.

this kind of agrees with the symptoms being part of a stress response.

the odd bit here is it lowers blood pressure.

it throws a spanner in the works about brain blood flow being key..



Ephedrine and pseudoephedrine do not work well for ADHD because they cause too much elevation of heart rate and tremor and simulate an anxiety state- thus negating the benefit of the improved cerebral blood flow.
I agree.

However, not all things that improve brain blood flow help those with ADHD.

You could get a child to lay down. Will that help their core symproms?




There are also strong statistical associations between dyslexia and balance problems and dyslexia and ADHD.
true..

however...those could be explained by immature or underactive dopamine and norepinephrine pathways in the front and centre parts of the brain..


I don't think one pathway can explain all the cases of ADHD.

For example:

There are people with genetic variants that have few dopamine transporters.

Some kids apparently, leak dopamine out of some cells and amphetamine seals the leak..

having said that, you may be onto something..

HADDaball
10-09-14, 08:49 PM
^ the claim that clonidine reduced cerebrial blood flow was a guess - I retract it.

It's funny - another alpha2 agonist, guanfacine, used to treat ADHD, increases brain blood flow:

Avery, R. A., Franowicz, J. S., Studholme, C., van Dyck, C. H., & Arnsten, A. F. (2000). The alpha-2A-adrenoceptor agonist, guanfacine, increases regional cerebral blood flow in dorsolateral prefrontal cortex of monkeys performing a spatial working memory task. Neuropsychopharmacology, 23(3), 240-249.
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v23/n3/full/1395519a.html


there may be more to it.. another time..

SB_UK
10-10-14, 05:35 AM
I'm curious how clonidine helps ADHD. It stimulates adrenergic alpha2 receptors, which lowers the release of noradrenaline.

this kind of agrees with the symptoms being part of a stress response.

the odd bit here is it lowers blood pressure.

it throws a spanner in the works about brain blood flow being key..



How about simply

Stress sensitive ADDers stressed -> change (insensitivity to cortisol / adrenaline hormones + neurotransmitters) through chronic stress -> all biological processes requiring these systems (eg the SNS in blood pressure regulation and immune system regulation by cortisol) naturally take a hit as these systems (as examples) no longer work as they should.

The difficult idea is the relationship between stress and reward.

I'd argue that stress is caused each time we attempt to do something which brings no reward which is why when we add eg dexedrine (reward in a bottle) we can do anything (within reason).

Ahhhhh - but we all have to do things that we think are pointless in education and in the workplace - you had just better get better at managing the stress.

But that's the thing - we don't have to do anything that brings us distress given a society in which survival is not conditional on earning money (ie doing what somebody else tells you to do).

SB_UK
10-10-14, 05:38 AM
So Kunga Dorji used the term dysautonomia.

How about if the entire autonomic nervous system is rendered insensitive/inoperative on account of (and simply) chronic stress exposure.

The autonomic system and the stress hormone - which each cell in the body encodes a receptor for ie there's the potential for insensitivity in cortisol to adversely affect every cell - combine this with the all encompassing effects of the autonomic system and we've an entire individual (on many levels) out of whack.

SB_UK
10-10-14, 05:43 AM
So - the ideaHere are a few tips (which I will be adding to progressively) that I have found to be helpful in living with Dysautonomia:
Destress your life

and
wikiP/dysautonomia
Lightheadedness or dizziness, often associated with orthostatic hypotension (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthostatic_hypotension) (abnormally low blood pressure on standing), sometimes resulting in syncope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncope_%28medicine%29) (fainting)

-*-

fibromyalgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibromyalgia), chronic fatigue syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome), irritable bowel syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irritable_bowel_syndrome), and interstitial cystitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstitial_cystitis), raising the possibility that such dysautonomia could be their common clustering underlying pathogenesis

So the one basis to the diseases of Western living is the structure of society in Western living ie intensely hierarchical.

You can't have hierarchy amongst man - we're all the same.

SB_UK
10-10-14, 05:56 AM
If I had to put my finger on the simplest basis to distress it'd be compulsion.

But having to breathe is compulsion ?

No - compulsion to behave in a manner which makes no sense or is immoral in order to survive.

Kunga Dorji
10-10-14, 05:16 PM
^ the claim that clonidine reduced cerebrial blood flow was a guess - I retract it.

It's funny - another alpha2 agonist, guanfacine, used to treat ADHD, increases brain blood flow:

Avery, R. A., Franowicz, J. S., Studholme, C., van Dyck, C. H., & Arnsten, A. F. (2000). The alpha-2A-adrenoceptor agonist, guanfacine, increases regional cerebral blood flow in dorsolateral prefrontal cortex of monkeys performing a spatial working memory task. Neuropsychopharmacology, 23(3), 240-249.
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v23/n3/full/1395519a.html


there may be more to it.. another time..

I'm not sure how the alpha 2 agonists work exactly.
However Clonidine is a highly effective antimigraine agent- and the key step in the evolution of a migraine is transient cerebral ischemia caused by local vascular spasm. That's when you get the aura.

These agents are centrally acting - so their mechanism is considerably more complex.

Equally- when I get into the stress, cold finger, tachycardia phase of ADHD I usually take propanolol until my heart rate drops below about 80. To be fair- those are amongst the infrequent occasions when I now choose to take stimulants.

Kunga Dorji
10-10-14, 05:20 PM
So Kunga Dorji used the term dysautonomia.

How about if the entire autonomic nervous system is rendered insensitive/inoperative on account of (and simply) chronic stress exposure.

The autonomic system and the stress hormone - which each cell in the body encodes a receptor for ie there's the potential for insensitivity in cortisol to adversely affect every cell - combine this with the all encompassing effects of the autonomic system and we've an entire individual (on many levels) out of whack.

Usually INsensitivity is not the problem.
The bigger issue is that severe stress causes KINDLING of exaggerated stress responses to non threatening stimuli.
The worst problem is when a trauma causes a "hair trigger freeze response". PTSD is the most extreme example here.

Kunga Dorji
10-10-14, 05:43 PM
Did you have any controls (non ADHD children) to see if there was a difference?

All kids could have elastic arteries and tissues. Kids are generally flexable.


I'm curious how clonidine helps ADHD. It stimulates adrenergic alpha2 receptors, which lowers the release of noradrenaline.

this kind of agrees with the symptoms being part of a stress response.

the odd bit here is it lowers blood pressure.

it throws a spanner in the works about brain blood flow being key..


I agree.

However, not all things that improve brain blood flow help those with ADHD.

You could get a child to lay down. Will that help their core symproms?



true..

however...those could be explained by immature or underactive dopamine and norepinephrine pathways in the front and centre parts of the brain..


I don't think one pathway can explain all the cases of ADHD.

For example:

There are people with genetic variants that have few dopamine transporters.

Some kids apparently, leak dopamine out of some cells and amphetamine seals the leak..

having said that, you may be onto something..

Excellent point re hyperelasticity in kids- that's probably why so many children have their ADHD settle somewhat when older.

RE amphetamine action-- it is pretty much the reverse:
Wikipedia will suffice here:
P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }A:link { }
Dextroamphetamine, like other amphetamines, elicits its stimulating effects via two distinct actions: first, it inhibits the transporter proteins for themonoamine neurotransmitters (namely the serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine, via trace amine associated receptor (TAAR1); and second, it releases these neurotransmitters from synaptic vesicles via trace vesicular monoamine receptor 2 . It also shares many chemical and pharmacological properties with the human trace amine neurotransmiters, especially phenylethylamineand N-methylphenethylamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-methylphenethylamine), the latter being an isomer of amphetamine that is produced within the human body.



Re the neck business- Its not my theory. It is best summed up in the book "Manual Therapy In Children" Ed Heiner Biedermann, written on the basis of extensive research by this team:




I will reference the chapter on ADHD- as it is highly illuminating(sorry about the length, the bold type is my emphasis).
I am sorry about the length- but I have already edited this extract right down to what I consider to be the bare bones. It is well worth reading as the authors nicely catch the nuances of the multifactorial causation of ADHD which we all recognise:


P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }
Chapter 12 Attention Deficit Disorder and the Upper Cervical Spine
R. Thieler (Paediatrician& Member of the European Workgroup for Manual Medicine)


p133:
“Even when there is no obvious evidence of abnormality, careful examination of pre-school and school age children frequently reveals indications of movement deficits of the upper cervical spine consistent with kinematic imbalances due to suboccipital strain (KISS).


Such findings are also very frequent in children with suspected ADD or similar problems, primarily involving clumsiness of gross motor functions and, more especially fine motor function, and difficulty in concentrating, and functional and behavioural difficulties”.


“During the early stages of our observation of child cases involving KISS and ADD, manual medical treatment was given solely to correct postural asymmetry. Following successful treatment of KISS, we found that in many cases that improvement had occurred not only in those aspects relating directly to postural deficit, but also in concentration and cognitive abilities.”


Study 48 children all with ADD according to DSM IV criteria.
Discussion of Results 136-7
One of the main findings of the neurophysiological examination in ADD is the reduced capacity for processing information. Miller G 1956 The magical number seven, plus or minus two: some limits on our capacity for processing information. Psychological Review 63:81-97
“There is a reduced intake concentration span in two or more fields of perception. This is an expression of deficiencies in executive functions, which are carried out in the dopamine dependent structures of the frontal lobe and the corpus striatum, and its links to the limbic system. The reduced ability to perceive or take in information makes it impossible to achieve the periods of concentration and sustained attention appropriate to the age of the child”.


According to this study, the main result following successful manipulation therapy for KISS was an improvement in intake concentration span, especially in verbal and visual perception.


The deficit in terms of age usually diminished within a short period ( an improvement in performance equal to a gain of up to two or more years performance) in the measured interval prior to treatment and the first treatment.


This improvement in performance could not be accounted for by brain maturation (it was too fast)



Parents often commented that improvements were observable in everyday life on the day that manipulative therapy had taken place, or within a few days.


“The model of the “capacity for processing information” offers an explanation for this improvement in cognitive function through orthopaedic treatment. This assumes that the brain has a set capacity to process information, and that the capacity must be available if it is to process the information received through the various means of perception.....”


“As with an overloaded computer, so in ADD with Kinematic Imbalance related Dysgnosia/Dyspraxia (KIDD) only part of the body of information is processed at the required time, leading eventually to a moment of total overload with decompensation due to excessive demand.
In the combination of KISS and ADD the child has an additional overload factor: in addition to having a processing memory that is too small for its age (i.e. a relatively less mature brain- noting that issues like rate of brain maturation will fall along a normal distribution curve, but school processes and requirements do not take account of this.-my edit), the child has to correct for the information distorted through the malpositioning of the head, and this corrective work probably plays a decisive role (in mental overload). The malpositioning means that the visual information is received crookedly, and either the information has to be straightened out in the system of visual perception, or the position of the head must be corrected by controlling the angle of the trunk, both solutions requiring additional information processing.


Successful manipulation therapy brings head and trunk correction back within normal range, freeing up capacity to be used for cognitive processing and bringing about a quantitative improvement in the processing of information received.


In the present study the clearest differences in findings occurred in those items of the examination that required information to be processed using a variety of modalities. In these tests, sensory information had to be translated into the performance of a motor task: repeating sounds, drawing a series of dots, or tracing out with the finger a line traced on the back of the hand (graphasthesia imitation). An everyday example of such a difference was that the reading performance of children with difficulty in reading aloud became normal in what was for parents an astonishingly short time.


On the other hand, the developmental deficit before and after therapy was considerably less in procedures requiring choice (and sometimes not demonstrable at all). To perform these procedures correctly the children needed to show good perceptive ability, but the demands appeared to been less than if all the children had to do was identify differences between pieces of information they had heard or felt.


For the majority of children, (with KISS and ADD) KISS causes a considerable limitation of information processing capacity: more importantly this was an additional limitation of capacity.
Manipulation therapy helped these children to some degree, but did not fundamentally improve the underlying problem. These children, therefore needed further types of treatment, in most cases medical stimulant therapy together with supporting therapy for motor function or behaviour.”




KIDD
P137ff
If they remain untreated, infants with KISS, grow into children with KIDD, with more or less pronounced associated symptoms. They exhibit not only problems of posture with neck and/or back
pain, but further difficulties that cannot clearly be traced to posture. These mainly involve motor clumsiness of varying severity, ranging all the way up to ataxic movement disorder. The main problem is motor co-ordination, in particular with fine motor function, with difficulties in graphic motor function. Other problems include variable concentration ability, which understandably results in variable performance at school and in everyday life. The form taken by the behavioural difficulty depends on the individual child, but seldom varies for any one individual. Observation shows that decompensation may be aggressive, destructive, or resigned.


If the difficulties in behaviour and perception are caused by poor positioning of the atlanto-occipital joint, we apply the description “Kinematic imbalance related dyspraxia/dysgnosia which is suboccipital in origin” (KIDD).


The possibility that children whose cognitive performance becomes normal after manipulation therapy might be suffering from an associated dopamine deficiency of the frontal lobe and frontal limbic structure is remote. Such therapy therefore provides a method of distinguishing “KIDD” from “KISS with ADD”. This in turn means that these children (the first subset of children presenting with ADD symptoms) can be helped without recourse to drug treatment, while the others can be helped by long term therapies.


The pattern of symptoms that appears with KIDD is difficult to differentiate from the problems of children with ADD.


Our protocol is as follows:
If ADD symptoms are accompanied by limited movement of the cervical spine attributable to KISS the manual therapy procedure is followed (radiological examination and manipulation therapy).


Follow up takes place at about 4 to 8 weeks after manipulation therapy.


If that examination reveals normal mobility of the cervical spine, we evaluate ADD symptoms and discuss the implications for subsequent therapy.


If it reveals further abnormality we recommend manipulation be performed a second time.


If the suboccipital region is normal and the symptoms have either disappeared or been reduced to a minimum, this is interpreted as KIDD. If ADD persists when the suboccipital region is normal we describe this as ADD with KISS.





Chapter 14 Practicalities of manual therapy in children ( H. Biedermann M.D. Practitioner in conservative orthopaedics, Cologne former surgeon at Uni of Wittenherdeke and Schwartz Hospital, Germany Member of the European Workgroup for Manual Medicine)


Comment on difficulty in mismatch in language and understanding between mainstream paediatricians and neuropaediatricians,physical therapists
164
Leaflet for KISS children
Symptoms:
wry neck
fixed and bent trunk
asymmetry of the face
flattened back of head
asymmetrical use of the arms and legs


Reported observations from parents
fixed posture of the head to one side or to the back
insufficient head control
fixed retroflexion of the head with arms pulled back
fixed posture while sleeping, with head bent back
difficulties in getting the child to sleep
asymmetrical trunk posture
uneven maturation of hip joints
pes adductus (foot curved and bent)
highly irritable neck
head banging
asymmetry of facial features
flattened and asymmetrical back of head
asymmetrical position of ears
colic
incessant crying


often with- sleeping disorders, difficulty breastfeeding on one side, colic or incessant crying


Risk factors:
difficult birth with use of vacuum extractors, prolonged labour, breech, twins


Ix 1-2 radiographs


Rx-
manipulation at 1 or more levels of spine
substantial improvement in 2/3 of patients
best if no Rx in the 2 weeks prior to a visit

mildadhd
10-14-14, 04:08 PM
Interesting

My blood pressure goes up, when I drink water?

What is the best posture for narrow focus attention? (for reading textbooks)

Thinking about feeling movement, posture and distance, have been freaking me out at bit lately in a good way.

It is fascinating to think about feeling some parts of my nervous system turn more, on or off, depending partly on if I am lying down or standing up, etc.







P

Kunga Dorji
10-15-14, 04:12 AM
Interesting

My blood pressure goes up, when I drink water?

What is the best posture for narrow focus attention? (for reading textbooks)
P
Thinking about feeling movement, posture and distance, have been freaking me out at bit lately in a good way.

It is fascinating to think about feeling some parts of my nervous system turn more, on or off, depending partly on if I am lying down or standing up, etc.

The best posture- fully upright, ear canals, the centre of the shoulder joints and the centre of the hip joints all in the one vertical plane the line bbetween the ears on the horizontal plane, ane the line between the shoulders and the hips all in the horizontal plane and in the same sagittal plane- all at 90 degrees to the line between the nose and the midline of the rear of the skull-
finally the spine drawn up to its maximum height, and a slight downwards tilt of the skull on the neck- while the other parameters are maintained-- exactly the same as the ideal meditation posture.
This is also the best posture for wide angle attention- because this is the posture compatible with maximum alertness and minimum deviation from balanced sympathetic/parasympathetic tone.

SB_UK
10-15-14, 08:54 AM
Usually INsensitivity is not the problem.
The bigger issue is that severe stress causes KINDLING of exaggerated stress responses to non threatening stimuli.
The worst problem is when a trauma causes a "hair trigger freeze response". PTSD is the most extreme example here.

Both make sense.

One's an immediate response.
One's a longer term response (adaptation).

So sensitivity is easier to trigger to an exaggerated response.
Chronic distress + sensitivity results in receptor downregulation/insensitivity/negative feedback ?

But the problem is - is that we don't really want to lose sensitivity.

We need sensitivity not to be stressed out and not to be stressed out chronically ?

SB_UK
10-15-14, 09:17 AM
Thinking spring.

A sensitive spring is easier to deform than a less sensitive spring given any given weight.
A sensitive spring will deform more (lose its initial shape) under stress.
A sensitive spring is easier to drive past its elastic limit into breakage.

The spring is a lovely analogy for homeostasis as the goal in both is to remain at a central point - and where the amount of stress which both can take is limited before the spring loses its natural elasticity.

mildadhd
10-15-14, 07:45 PM
Thinking spring.

A sensitive spring is easier to deform than a less sensitive spring given any given weight.
A sensitive spring will deform more (lose its initial shape) under stress.
A sensitive spring is easier to drive past its elastic limit into breakage.

The spring is a lovely analogy for homeostasis as the goal in both is to remain at a central point - and where the amount of stress which both can take is limited before the spring loses its natural elasticity.

That is very very interesting.

Although I get this opposite feeling?

Like being squeezed in a vice, verses, not being squeezed in a vice.

But that might be because I am a human, not a coil spring?

I wonder if a coil spring likes being squeezed?

I would assume so, since it is not a human but a coil spring?

(On first and second read, i was confused because I thought you where referring to "spring time", season of year.) :)

Really neat example, thanks.

Is there such a thing as lack of distress?




P

mildadhd
10-15-14, 07:57 PM
Thinking about feeling movement, posture and distance, have been freaking me out at bit lately in a good way.

It is fascinating to think about feeling some parts of my nervous system turn more, on or off, depending partly on if I am lying down or standing up, etc.

The best posture- fully upright, ear canals, the centre of the shoulder joints and the centre of the hip joints all in the one vertical plane the line bbetween the ears on the horizontal plane, ane the line between the shoulders and the hips all in the horizontal plane and in the same sagittal plane- all at 90 degrees to the line between the nose and the midline of the rear of the skull-
finally the spine drawn up to its maximum height, and a slight downwards tilt of the skull on the neck- while the other parameters are maintained-- exactly the same as the ideal meditation posture.
This is also the best posture for wide angle attention- because this is the posture compatible with maximum alertness and minimum deviation from balanced sympathetic/parasympathetic tone.



If I was feeling hyperactive would it be better to lay down?

If I was feeling inattentive would it be better to stand up?



P

Kunga Dorji
10-16-14, 09:05 AM
Both make sense.

One's an immediate response.
One's a longer term response (adaptation).

So sensitivity is easier to trigger to an exaggerated response.
Chronic distress + sensitivity results in receptor downregulation/insensitivity/negative feedback ?

But the problem is - is that we don't really want to lose sensitivity.

We need sensitivity not to be stressed out and not to be stressed out chronically ?

The answer here is to embrace sensitivity in conjunction with equanimity.
Learn to extinguish reactivity.
Technically that is called equanimity in "mindfulness land".
It is trainable.

Kunga Dorji
10-16-14, 09:09 AM
If I was feeling hyperactive would it be better to lay down?

If I was feeling inattentive would it be better to stand up?



P


First take your pulse.
If your heart rate is much above 75 and you have not just been working out in the last 30 minutes-then for either- probably lie down for 5 minutes with legs up against a wall, then stand in the Tai Chi meditation posture or sit in classic meditation posture (but GET IT RIGHT) and do abdominal breathing.

I saw a patient today with big blood pressure problems.
Our consultation went for 90 minutes-by the end of it she could only keep herself going by rocking back and forward (it pumped blood to her brain).
SO- she sat- but she adopted a "stereotyped fidget".

If more than 90 minutes after eating have a couple of big glasses of plain water.
keep cool.
Avoid alcohol.

SB_UK
10-16-14, 09:58 AM
The answer here is to embrace sensitivity in conjunction with equanimity.
Learn to extinguish reactivity.
Technically that is called equanimity in "mindfulness land".
It is trainable.

Are we entitled to suppress a stress response when it's justified ?

So - I'm feeling stress at the prospect of attempting some task (molecular genetics of obesity) which is pointless ... ... because the solution to the problem lies elsewhere.

IE there's a form of short circuit which is going on in my head - attempting to generate motivation for something that's pointless.

As ever - my question is - but aren't we supposed to exhibit a stress response if it's appropriate.

Previously you've written that excess stress stops functionality and so is not useful.

But we're trapped in a form of loop where I agree that stress to the point of collapse does not serve us - but being able to extinguish the appropriate stress response isn't ideal either.

So - in the case of dexedrine it allows us to do things which we're not in the least bit interested in - there's the argument that it doesn't matter whether you're interested in it - you have to do it because of the immoral way society is structured
- but you've also the need for society to change and it won't change if people demonstrate a docile compliance.

-*-

Now - I've sensitive hearing (can't go anywhere near fireworks) but there's no way that I can tone down my sensitivity ... ... wouldn't it be natural to assume that stress resulting from sensitivity should demonstrate the same basic pattern ie pain (sensitivity) from fireworks and pain (sensitivity) from forced engagement in immoral practices aren't supposed to be suppressed - we're meant to feel the pain and walk away.

Certainly I never go to fireworks displays - but it's impossible to avoid the workplace what with the need for money to survive.

SB_UK
10-16-14, 10:21 AM
I don't really like the idea of sensitivity voluntarily sacrificing/suppressing sensitivity (stress) - if human beings are doing something REALLY stupid like the molecular genetics of common disease - then it's not for the benefit of the species if people're able to suppress the idiocy of the thrust and support the madness of it all.

Was it right for boy to suggest that the Emperor was naked ? Or should he have kept his mouth shut ?

Thing is - is that there's no point that I can see to investigate the molecular biology of common disease when the solution can be found (and the solution is all we're interested in) in social change - to society without hierarchy/compulsion ... ... which opens the door to Peripheral's Panksepp idea of NO distress by definition during 'PLAY' where 'PLAY' is defined by Panksepp as engaging in something we're enthusiastic about ... ... and where we'd absolutely default into this state in the absence of compulsion (wage slavery).

So ?

Capitalism -> Voluntaryism -> Enthusiastic individual without compulsion -> PLAY -> Distress free -> No stress -> No destruction of sensitivity -> sensitivity (to information) activates reward system -> happy
-- to be clear I'm looking for the idea of musical chills of information activating the reward system - more widely in the ADDer to take the slack of activating our reward system.

As mentioned by KD/Barliman - animals without activation of the reward system do nothing.

So - we must assume that enthusiasm without compulsion naturally defines what CAN activate the reward system -
- and I'll report exercising in the silence in the sun - where it's the information relay through the senses (just as we know can happen in musical chills) which floats our boat in a fair world.

Is there such a thing as lack of distress?

SB_UK
10-16-14, 10:45 AM
Random ideas

1.Noticed that when I exercise close to eating that I suffer greater asthma problems.
So - asthma considered excess PNS tone - PNS activation in digestion ... ... so simply not eating several hours before exercise as solution.

1b.Notice asthma with eating close to sleeping -
double whammy of rest + digest PNS activation ?
Note SNS activation on fasting (previously described).

2.If SNS/PNS are fight flight rest digest
- maybe we're honed if we're not fighting, running (anaerobic respiration), resting or digesting.

Thinking aerobic respiration fasting endurance in the zone exercise
- or what I describe as 'silence in the sun' ... ...
? restore sensitivity ie basal balance in SNS and PNS if we take away the stressors which drive both to operate ?

3.Dysautonomia
Definitely occurring.
So - systems affected heart rate, blood pressure, appetite regulation, sweating, breathing
- particularly strong respiratory effects (asthma) on temperature change.
Suggestion that the regulatory systems which co-ordinate all of these systems is start exercise - SNS activation - bronchodilation/vasoconstriction is all over the place due to chronic distress exposure.
Solution - see above - reduce SNS and PNS outflow until system re-equilibrates.

Required?
A world without money - where you are not required to comply with immorality.

SB_UK
10-16-14, 10:52 AM
You see - here's the thing.

If I'm enthusiastic about something to the point of ONLY wanting to do it - ie exercising/fasting for hours and hours in the sun

- then how exactly can it not be activating the dopaminergic reward mechanism ?

So - hate it when such an obvious thought comes to mind - but of course it is neurochemically rewarding - because if it wasn't I wouldn't want to do it.

Yes - but what if it's one of those addicting pursuits that you keep talking about ?
Well exercise can be addictive and sun exposure can be addictive
- but ... ... it's not that.
We evolved as persistence hunters ie a species of people that walk in the sun.

What else'd you expect to be selected ? Than people who're happy with the lovely sustainable pursuit of nothing more than walking in the sun.

You certainly wouldn't expect the evolution of lager swilling couch potatoes screaming obscenities at television screens when their favourite player trips over his own legs.

SB_UK
10-16-14, 10:58 AM
Current controversy of pro-sun vs anti-sun ie many benefits vs skin cancer ?
All problems solved by hitting ketosis.

Don't engage in cancer feeding habits (blood glucose elevation) and then go enjoy the sun.

Persistent hunters would have spent (of course) their time in the sun in a state of ketosis.

note - barefoot shoes (thanks to Ruby on site)

SB_UK
10-16-14, 11:02 AM
That is very very interesting.

Although I get this opposite feeling?

Like being squeezed in a vice, verses, not being squeezed in a vice.

But that might be because I am a human, not a coil spring?

I wonder if a coil spring likes being squeezed?

I would assume so, since it is not a human but a coil spring?

(On first and second read, i was confused because I thought you where referring to "spring time", season of year.) :)

Really neat example, thanks.

Is there such a thing as lack of distress?




P

I know the feeling of being squeezed in a vice - that's stress.

And the feeling of opening (previously) when I've taken dexedrine.

markadd
10-16-14, 04:00 PM
Just want say i've really enjoyed this thread. Alot of the discussion here really resonates with me. Thanks for the info.

Kunga Dorji
10-16-14, 05:25 PM
Current controversy of pro-sun vs anti-sun ie many benefits vs skin cancer ?
All problems solved by hitting ketosis.

Don't engage in cancer feeding habits (blood glucose elevation) and then go enjoy the sun.

Persistent hunters would have spent (of course) their time in the sun in a state of ketosis.

note - barefoot shoes (thanks to Ruby on site)


The sun thing is only a controversy amongst dermatologists- who see all the skin cacers caused by sunburn, but miss all the other cancers caused by Vitamin D deficiency- which is far deadlier than sun exposure.

In addition there is evidence that fish oil supplementation on the day of sun exposure neutralises the risk of skin cancer(unless you allow yourself to get sunburned- I would imagine).

It prevents the temporary dermal immune suppression caused by UV light exposure.

SB_UK
10-17-14, 05:39 AM
The sun thing is only a controversy amongst dermatologists- who see all the skin cacers caused by sunburn, but miss all the other cancers caused by Vitamin D deficiency- which is far deadlier than sun exposure.

In addition there is evidence that fish oil supplementation on the day of sun exposure neutralises the risk of skin cancer(unless you allow yourself to get sunburned- I would imagine).

It prevents the temporary dermal immune suppression caused by UV light exposure.

Sounds perfect eg UV treatment of psoriasis.

UVB-induced DNA damage is a major molecular trigger of UV-mediated immunosuppression.Makes wonderful sense.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16452825

SB_UK
10-17-14, 06:42 AM
... ... but ketosis + sun-habituated and not pallid and high on buns.

SB_UK
10-17-14, 06:59 AM
Fasting reboots/controls/restores functionality in immune system (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10878625/Fasting-for-three-days-can-regenerate-entire-immune-system-study-finds.html)

Sun exposure reboots/controls/restores functionality in immune system (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16452825)

Ketosis (endurance exercise) (similarity between b-hydroxybutyrate and HDACi) reboots/controls/restores functionality in immune system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histone_deacetylase_inhibitor)

Being happy (not distressed) ie when we're with our doggy reboots/controls/restores functionality in immune system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol#Immune_system)


So if we put them together we've:
silence
with doggy,
walking/running
for hours
each day barefoot (minimalist shoes) in the sun
... ... carrying only water

- and we've a full house if optimal health is sought.

SB_UK
10-17-14, 07:00 AM
And what exactly do you want to do in life ?
Well funnily enough - that'd be ... ...

silence
with doggy,
walking/running
for hours
each day barefoot (minimalist shoes) in the sun
... ... carrying only water

Though funnily enough I'm never really thirsty.

SB_UK
10-17-14, 09:18 AM
ps with sleeping naturally (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0097500) and eating naturally (Fruit and vegetable consumption associated with high gut bacterial gene richness (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v500/n7464/full/nature12506.html)) when not doing all of the above.

So that's what we do during the day, during the night with a small window someplace in between to eat.

young, old, male and female ALL RUN.

HADDaball
10-18-14, 06:12 AM
I can relate to the importance of posture. Good posture can help.

I just think there's more to it.

It's like the front and top parts of the brain are underactive or immature with ADDers.

Maybe some kids lacked spending quality time and attention with others. So, those parts are slower growing?

I just find it odd that norepinephrine is common to most, if not all, the effective ADD treatments.

SB_UK
10-18-14, 08:37 AM
I think I'm observing better natural posture naturally with offroad barefoot running (exercises core?), weight loss and exercising - I mean instead of concentrating on good posture it's easier to live one's life in a certain way such that good posture follows ?

SB_UK
10-18-14, 09:10 AM
It is the hormone and neurotransmitter most responsible for vigilant concentration in contrast to its most chemically similar hormone, dopamine, which is most responsible for cognitive alertness.

So are we naturally theta EEG types as the EEG studies imply ie halfway between sleep and waking state or are we driven through chronic distress into NE insensitivity.

Or both ?

Personally I want to be in daydream state which is a dreamy dissociative state which isn't what I'd call alert ... ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Rembrandt_-_The_Philosopher_in_Meditation.jpg/300px-Rembrandt_-_The_Philosopher_in_Meditation.jpg

One of my favourite pictures (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Rembrandt_-_The_Philosopher_in_Meditation.jpg/300px-Rembrandt_-_The_Philosopher_in_Meditation.jpg) - philosopher in meditation thinking
- but it's just not an alert state.

I don't think I'm alert unless stressed eg in a car daydreaming along - until someone unexpectedly steps out onto the road - alertness takes over.

Each time I'm pulled out of the theta state (has to be the state of philosopher in meditation above - reflection) - I fire off a stress response - which is probably going to force me out of a happy state into an unhappy alert state - which if it occurs chronically (which it does in our current dumbo world) - will have to result in some alteration to the response.

-*-

The 'in a vice' description of stress (Peripheral above) melts away when we hit theta - hitting theta EEG also 'opens' us up and out of the stressed state.

-*-

Dexedrine is used as a treatment for narcolepsy - which must be a tendency to fall into low freq EEG with dexedrine taking us up and higher.

ADHD is a tendency to fall into low freq EEGs (not as low as narcolepsy) with dexedrine lifting us out.

-*-

It's a bit like we're 'tuned' to reflection and don't want to be alert (stressed) - or more so - that we're not really tuned to real-time and are more tuned to in our own time.

What's wrong with real-time ?
Well - there's not enough time to do anything meaningfully if we're on the clock.

Real-time speech isn't anywhere near as fulfilling as out of real-time writing.

Real-time is a description of how animals live ie you're constantly required to be in the moment in order to survive - whereas human beings through mind shift out of real-time into the mind where time means nothing.

-*-

So - thinking - that if NE is the nt of alertness (distress survival) - then I don't really want to be in that state, using that nt - and dexedrine is

Hmmm...

- is stimulation (stimulant) - increase in EEG and narcotic - decrease in EEG.
It really should be.

But why are we connecting the 2 addictive drug classes into something as simple as the sleep and waking state.

-*-

Awake in the dream

Are we waking up into a state of consciousness (philosophical meditation) which could be described as the dream-like (theta EEG) state ?

SB_UK
10-18-14, 09:29 AM
Try again.

'and there's nothing to get hung about'
- personal experience is that the distress (like one's head is in a vice) melts away at the junction between sleep and wake (theta EEG).

Repeated hundreds of times on site - I LIKE being in the waking theta state - it's a pleasant open state of mind.

Referenced many times over - connection between creativity and the daydream state (the ADDer default state).

ADDer = Sensitivity and so easy to rouse us out of theta EEG with 'distress' - the need to do something that can't be managed in theta EEG state.
Dislike of being raised out of theta EEG state.

A state in which (once learnt) we perform maths, computing ... ... a dissociated creative state.

-*-

But NE - alertness.

E/NE and cortisol are the hormones/nts of stress.

-*-

E/NE/cortisol vs oxytocin/dopamine

Paradoxical effect of stimulants - to relax us.

I'm noticing:
[1] Respiratory regulation issues with Altered temperature (cold induced asthma)
[2] Respiratory regulation issues with Food intake (asthma)
[3] Very low blood pressure on Fasting
[4] Extremely cold (painful) on Fasting or in the cold

So - this all looks like we've dysautonomia ie an autonomic nervous system which isn't operating optimally.

NA/A are critically important agents of the autonomic nervous sytem.

-*-

Previously suggested:
see Intense world theory (autism) - where over stimulation -> problems
- that this applies to ADHD ie we're sensitive - achieve sufficient informational activation of our system with simple existence

- now ... ... suggesting that in a daydream state of informational relay activating our reward system ... that ... it's not just increased informational presentation which over-stimulates us into distress ... ... but it does this through forcing a higher EEG state (distressful) which courts all of the many adverse effects of chronic (di)stress.

-*-

More simply.

Let sleeping (daydreaming runners) dogs lie.

Forcing us through stress into paying attention is a short-sighted approach to forcing us to pay attention - because it's an unsustainable state ie will crash if we're operating (paying attention) by virtue of simulating the survival compromised (threatened) state.

SB_UK
10-18-14, 09:41 AM
orthostatic intolerance + postureSo thinking:

orthostatic intolerance.
~s (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK400/)~ The term orthostatic hypotension is often used as a synonym for dysautonomia.

posture
~s (http://www.runbare.com/10-reasons-to-go-barefoot#)~
3.) Increased muscle tone.
Barefoot walking helps give you abs of steel that would make John Basedow jealous, and legs worthy of the Greek Gods. When you’re not supported by your shoes, you have to do the work of balancing yourself. This comes directly from engaging your core muscles (abs and back) and creating a wall of strength in your midsection.
8.) Better posture.
The stronger your feet and core, the taller and lighter you will stand.
But once again -
we're back to the solution of barefoot running in the sun in the daydream zone as the solution to poor posture and dysautonomia.

-*-

silence <- listening to the sounds of nature or theta entrainment music eg Boards of Canada
with doggy, <- its well known that dogs relieve stress - note occasional touch of dog's fur it's wonderful (ref mindfulness of awareness of sensory experience)
walking/running each day barefoot (minimalist shoes) <- presumably the better we get the better our entire musculature (core/legs/abs) becomes
for hours <- hit the wall ketosis a couple of hours into running
in the daydream state <- a state where there's nothing to get hung about
in the sun<- essential requirement from immunosuppression, b-endorphin wellbeing from UVB to calcium homeostasis and vitamin D mediated processes
... ... carrying only water<- in a batman utility belt type bumbag fnnny pack thing

Haven't been able to get a handle on mindfulness so far - however - combining
"Going barefoot means that from this step forward, you are now one with the terrain, not just a spectator. Focusing on your steps, rather than your problems, helps empty the mind and put you at ease. Consider it forced quieting of the mind (which all of us could use). This gives you a great sense of peace or mindfulness, as you’re now focused purely on the run (or walk), not on the troubles you’ve left behind."

with
note occasional touch of dog's fur

We're just looking at getting 'out of mind' into 'sensory experience' ie out of a really unpleasant place - the mind which just seems to think about problems to a happier place (sensory world) where I'm pretty sure that the theta EEG daydream state is the state of mindfulness ie representing as it does the departure (vice like grip of thinking) into another (creativity, relaxed) place.

But that'd mean that we're (ADDers're) mindfulness-ready ie are predisposed to mindfulness ie do it without thinking :-).

SB_UK
10-18-14, 10:12 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sensual_World
drew inspiration for the title track from the novel Ulysses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_%28novel%29) by James Joyce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Joyce).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_%28novel%29
Ulysses' stream-of-consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_of_consciousness_%28narrative_mode%29) technique

Stream of Consciousness

Why easy for ADDer ?

Imagining floating freely in theta EEG in an expanse of interconnections -
particularly predisposed towards making ever more obscure creative leaps through a richer structure of mind.

-*-

Stream of Consciousness is easy for an ADDer in theta EEG - worse still - though to be fair not stream of consicousness is difficult (tedious)
ie staying on 'thread' and not making some bizarre and potentially useful creative leap into understanding bores us.

SB_UK
10-18-14, 10:28 AM
Imagining floating freely in theta EEG in an expanse of interconnections -
particularly predisposed towards making ever more obscure creative leaps through a richer structure of mind.


New Hunter ?

Or about to be Old hunter as mind is transcended into hunting quality of sensory experience.

-*-

So dysautonomia of the species through failure to let sleeping dogs lie.

Happy as is ... ... so why ? force to leave the greener grass on our current side ?

Kunga Dorji
10-19-14, 06:38 AM
I can relate to the importance of posture. Good posture can help.

I just think there's more to it.

It's like the front and top parts of the brain are underactive or immature with ADDers.

Maybe some kids lacked spending quality time and attention with others. So, those parts are slower growing?

I just find it odd that norepinephrine is common to most, if not all, the effective ADD treatments.

Now in terms of brain growth in ADHD- we do know some things very clearly- total brain size and maturation is about 3/4 of the calender age of the child.
IE A 16 year old ADDer has a brain that looks more like a 12 year old

Brain maturation, though, peaks in neurotypicals about age 24, and in ADDers about age 28--and the end stage is not all that different.

We also know, however, that focussed attention is necessary for the formation of new synapses (neuroplasticity).
So- if one has impaired attention- one is going to be learning and remodeling one's brain slower than one's more focussed friends.

To me-- that is probably sufficient explanation for the differential brain growth issue.

We know there are cereballar issues in ADHD- and that points us back squarely towards looking at balance. We also know that appropriately done, cerebellar retraining through appropriate exercise, will result in neuroplastic growth in the cerebellum.
In addition, we also know that feed forwards of post synaptic potentials from the cerebellum is one of the major inputs that sets the resting tone of the neurones in the frontal lobes:

IE- If the cerebellum is underactive, then the resting potential in frontal neurones, (the Central Integrative State of those neurones) will be lower and the frontal lobes will be less ready to fire.

The biggest thing that we all have to come to terms with though is the intermittency of the functional deficit in ADHD.
There are lots of times when our brain works well and we appear to have no disability at all.

As an example- look at my history: my impulsivity and hot temper left me hugely socially disadvantaged at school- and I had a very unpleasant time at school. However- in the academic environment I excelled- and my marks at the end of year 12 were exceptional. So- like every other ADDer- when I was good I was very good and when I was bad-- I was shocking.

Now that intermittency of functioning cannot be explained by a deficit in brain growth- as a deficiency in brain growth would have caused a global and consistent deficit in function.

Finally- as for neurotransmitters- we spend too much time thinking about these. The choice of which neurotransmitters are activated actually depends on which circuitry is being preferentially used-- and that is driven by what we think and do .

Mind precedes all things- not neurotransmitters.

The high proportion of dopamine genetic diversity in the population implies, actually, that these genetic variants offer survival advantages to their bearers. IF they did not, they would not be so prevalent.

daveddd
10-19-14, 07:30 AM
Now in terms of brain growth in ADHD- we do know some things very clearly- total brain size and maturation is about 3/4 of the calender age of the child.
IE A 16 year old ADDer has a brain that looks more like a 12 year old

Brain maturation, though, peaks in neurotypicals about age 24, and in ADDers about age 28--and the end stage is not all that different.

We also know, however, that focussed attention is necessary for the formation of new synapses (neuroplasticity).
So- if one has impaired attention- one is going to be learning and remodeling one's brain slower than one's more focussed friends.

To me-- that is probably sufficient explanation for the differential brain growth issue.

We know there are cereballar issues in ADHD- and that points us back squarely towards looking at balance. We also know that appropriately done, cerebellar retraining through appropriate exercise, will result in neuroplastic growth in the cerebellum.
In addition, we also know that feed forwards of post synaptic potentials from the cerebellum is one of the major inputs that sets the resting tone of the neurones in the frontal lobes:

IE- If the cerebellum is underactive, then the resting potential in frontal neurones, (the Central Integrative State of those neurones) will be lower and the frontal lobes will be less ready to fire.

The biggest thing that we all have to come to terms with though is the intermittency of the functional deficit in ADHD.
There are lots of times when our brain works well and we appear to have no disability at all.

As an example- look at my history: my impulsivity and hot temper left me hugely socially disadvantaged at school- and I had a very unpleasant time at school. However- in the academic environment I excelled- and my marks at the end of year 12 were exceptional. So- like every other ADDer- when I was good I was very good and when I was bad-- I was shocking.

Now that intermittency of functioning cannot be explained by a deficit in brain growth- as a deficiency in brain growth would have caused a global and consistent deficit in function.

Finally- as for neurotransmitters- we spend too much time thinking about these. The choice of which neurotransmitters are activated actually depends on which circuitry is being preferentially used-- and that is driven by what we think and do .

Mind precedes all things- not neurotransmitters.

The high proportion of dopamine genetic diversity in the population implies, actually, that these genetic variants offer survival advantages to their bearers. IF they did not, they would not be so prevalent.

great post

i think the false information on brain chemicals out there can be extremely damaging

makes learned helplessness easy

SB_UK
10-19-14, 07:32 AM
Now in terms of brain growth in ADHD- we do know some things very clearly- total brain size and maturation is about 3/4 of the calender age of the child.
IE A 16 year old ADDer has a brain that looks more like a 12 year old

Brain maturation, though, peaks in neurotypicals about age 24, and in ADDers about age 28--and the end stage is not all that different.

We also know, however, that focussed attention is necessary for the formation of new synapses (neuroplasticity).
So- if one has impaired attention- one is going to be learning and remodeling one's brain slower than one's more focussed friends.

To me-- that is probably sufficient explanation for the differential brain growth issue.

We know there are cereballar issues in ADHD- and that points us back squarely towards looking at balance. We also know that appropriately done, cerebellar retraining through appropriate exercise, will result in neuroplastic growth in the cerebellum.
In addition, we also know that feed forwards of post synaptic potentials from the cerebellum is one of the major inputs that sets the resting tone of the neurones in the frontal lobes:

IE- If the cerebellum is underactive, then the resting potential in frontal neurones, (the Central Integrative State of those neurones) will be lower and the frontal lobes will be less ready to fire.

The biggest thing that we all have to come to terms with though is the intermittency of the functional deficit in ADHD.
There are lots of times when our brain works well and we appear to have no disability at all.

As an example- look at my history: my impulsivity and hot temper left me hugely socially disadvantaged at school- and I had a very unpleasant time at school. However- in the academic environment I excelled- and my marks at the end of year 12 were exceptional. So- like every other ADDer- when I was good I was very good and when I was bad-- I was shocking.

Now that intermittency of functioning cannot be explained by a deficit in brain growth- as a deficiency in brain growth would have caused a global and consistent deficit in function.

Finally- as for neurotransmitters- we spend too much time thinking about these. The choice of which neurotransmitters are activated actually depends on which circuitry is being preferentially used-- and that is driven by what we think and do .

Mind precedes all things- not neurotransmitters.

The high proportion of dopamine genetic diversity in the population implies, actually, that these genetic variants offer survival advantages to their bearers. IF they did not, they would not be so prevalent.

Excellent post - was thinking about 4 or 5 of the issues covered.

ie is it a 3-4 yr delay or fractional delay ?
Increased time of maturation is consistent with construction of a better construct at least when evolution is in charge.
Know thy abstraction layer - mind first neurotranmitter second.
Importance of balance (co-ordination) in helping to train the ADDer mind (we've looked at Dore before).
Distress of immature mind of ADDer in a learning environment which they're not ready for -> distress -> incapacity to concentrate -> lost for ever from higher education
ADDer (myself) useless at visual learning (eg learning human anatomy) but able to learn ideas which make sense ... ... ... crash and burn attempting to compress human anatomy into my head.

SB_UK
10-19-14, 07:33 AM
great post


Hey !! Snap. :p

Kunga Dorji
10-19-14, 12:30 PM
So thinking:

orthostatic intolerance.
~s (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK400/)~ The term orthostatic hypotension is often used as a synonym for dysautonomia.

posture
~s (http://www.runbare.com/10-reasons-to-go-barefoot#)~
But once again -
we're back to the solution of barefoot running in the sun in the daydream zone as the solution to poor posture and dysautonomia.

-*-

silence <- listening to the sounds of nature or theta entrainment music eg Boards of Canada
with doggy, <- its well known that dogs relieve stress - note occasional touch of dog's fur it's wonderful (ref mindfulness of awareness of sensory experience)
walking/running each day barefoot (minimalist shoes) <- presumably the better we get the better our entire musculature (core/legs/abs) becomes
for hours <- hit the wall ketosis a couple of hours into running
in the daydream state <- a state where there's nothing to get hung about
in the sun<- essential requirement from immunosuppression, b-endorphin wellbeing from UVB to calcium homeostasis and vitamin D mediated processes
... ... carrying only water<- in a batman utility belt type bumbag fnnny pack thing

Haven't been able to get a handle on mindfulness so far - however - combining

with


We're just looking at getting 'out of mind' into 'sensory experience' ie out of a really unpleasant place - the mind which just seems to think about problems to a happier place (sensory world) where I'm pretty sure that the theta EEG daydream state is the state of mindfulness ie representing as it does the departure (vice like grip of thinking) into another (creativity, relaxed) place.

But that'd mean that we're (ADDers're) mindfulness-ready ie are predisposed to mindfulness ie do it without thinking :-).


Mindfulness is better called "Bodyfulness".
Go to the I Tunes store and look up a guided meditation by my teacher Alan Wallace, called "Settling the Body In Its Natural State"
there is no charge for it.
Put it on.
Lie back in a comfortable, relaxed, symmetrical posture (Shavasana- the corps pose)- and just let your mind go to the things he tells you are of note.

You will see - everything you are talking about and more :)

SB_UK
10-19-14, 01:51 PM
Mindfulness is better called "Bodyfulness".

That change in emphasis makes the idea so much more accessible.

Words !

Kunga Dorji
10-20-14, 07:30 AM
That change in emphasis makes the idea so much more accessible.

Words !

Yup- words-- we are continually decieved by them.