View Full Version : Trauma and ADHD- the freeze response.


Kunga Dorji
09-28-14, 02:28 AM
I touched on this dynamic while discussing orthostatic intolerance and hyperelasticity syndromes.

However it is clear that complex trauma will also cause a tendency to cerebral hypoxia by the mechanism of recurrent subacute "Freeze" responses.

This dynamic is known to be operative in depression and in PTSD- and it is probably a part of many ADHD inattentive symptoms too:

Now the freeze response - or a "parasympathetic storm triggering circulatory shutdown shutdown" is a very important subject.

First off you need to be across the hierarchical nature of stress responses outlined in Stephen Porges' "Polyvagal Theory"
SNS = sympathetic nervous system.
PNS= parasympathetic nervous system

1) A stressor is any outside or internal influence or event that requires an alteration from homeostasis to manage it.

2) In repose our system has balanced sympathetic and parasympathetic drive.

3) An example of a low level stressor a chance meeting with a stranger.
The most efficient means of handling this is through establishing an empathetic and friendly bond and recruiting the stranger as a friend.

This requires the sort of social repose and non verbal skill that will put the stranger at the ease.
That ability is governed by the myelinated parasympathetic nervous system.( A recent evolutionary advance- found only in mammals- best developed in primates and especially humans).

4) In a state of low level threat- the tone of the myelinated PNS is withdrawn and the "social engagement machinery" is turned off. Facial expression becomes flatter, vocal prosody is lost and the individual exhibits body language that effectively sends a warning that he is subconsciously preparing for fight or flight.
Heart rate increases under the unopposed elevated sympathetic tone.

5) Higher threat level escalates sympathetic tone. This is a more powerful response ad harder to turn off- it can take some time to subside.

6) Maximum threat- life- threatening situations that are inescapable initiate a freeze response.
Ie the mouse that plays dead when caught by a cat- but then runs when dropped.
Freeze responses turn off core tone and drop blood pressure. They can also present as fainting spells when overly hot and dehydrated when forced to stand upright and still. In that case the faint actually drops the body to a lower altitude and restores cerebral perfusion- but that is a special case.

These freeze responses are mediated by the phylogenetically much more ancient unmyelinated part of the parasympathetic nervous system.

They are an efficient survival mechanism for reptiles- but for mammals can be very dangerous-- they can even induce death due to cardiac failure. This is common when bird hatchlings are handled.

This is where trauma ties in directly to the genesis of ADHD- in that it sets up a large number of traumatic implicit memories that can accidentally trigger subclinical freeze responses and set the stage for difficulty sitting upright without one's brain going offline.

So this sets the stage for shame.
What is "shame"?
Why did the response evolve?
What is its survival advantage?

Pretty simple I think-- in a social hierarchy an appropriate exhibit of shame (triggering a helpless freeze state) actually signals to the alpha male (who might be about to attack or kill you) demonstrates clearly that you present no threat to him.

An appropriate shame reaction might well be life saving-- and it might also keep you out of jail if you show clear evidence of shame in front of a judge.

However- our culture is addicted to shaming people as a means of disciplining them.
It is a fundamentally destructive and stupid thing to do- and it can damage people either fatally - or push them into depression, chronic fatigue syndrome or inattentive ADHD symptoms.

The real problem is that as our nervous systems become more and more dysregulated we slip down into worse and worse dysfunction and we start to get freeze responses triggered bythe first little symptom as subconsciusly we think "Bloody hell- its happening again. Now I am in trouble- that is me wrecked for the rest of the day".

A "fear of fear response".

meadd823
09-28-14, 04:36 AM
Maximum threat- life- threatening situations that are inescapable initiate a freeze response.

Ie the mouse that plays dead when caught by a cat- but then runs when dropped.


Freeze responses turn off core tone and drop blood pressure. They can also present as fainting spells when overly hot and dehydrated when forced to stand upright and still. In that case the faint actually drops the body to a lower altitude and restores cerebral perfusion- but that is a special case.


Cats and many of their predators do not have hands therefore must drop the mouse on the ground in order to eat them - hence it is a neat trick or one worth trying when running was obviously not effective as long as said mouse is not caught by a raccoon which eats with it's hands and would not need to drop it's prey in order to eat it.

The response is depended upon the types of predators and given species is trying to deal with. I am unsure what this has to do with ADD especially give than combined types of ADDers far out number any other subgroup every where on the planet BUT this forum.

sarahsweets
09-28-14, 05:02 AM
I do not understand how it ties in to adhd or shame and trauma.

Kunga Dorji
09-28-14, 07:41 AM
Cats and many of their predators do not have hands therefore must drop the mouse on the ground in order to eat them - hence it is a neat trick or one worth trying when running was obviously not effective as long as said mouse is not caught by a raccoon which eats with it's hands and would not need to drop it's prey in order to eat it.

The response is depended upon the types of predators and given species is trying to deal with. I am unsure what this has to do with ADD especially give than combined types of ADDers far out number any other subgroup every where on the planet BUT this forum.

Hi meadd (and Sarah)

- refer back to the "tissue hyperelasticity and orthostatic intolerance" thread. These 2 threads need to be read in tandem to get the whole picture.

What was clear from the data that was presented from Dr O' Callaghan's talk was that relative cerebral hypoxia caused by difficulty regulating blood pressure can produce a symptom cluster identical to inattentive ADHD, or in the cases where the affected individual can mount a strong sympathetic activation response to kick up cardiac output the symptom cluster will be indistinguishable from combined or hyperactive ADHD.

I have been monitoring this closely since that lecture and have found very abnormal pulse and blood pressure patterns in about 2/3 of my ADHD patients that are consistent with the hypothesis that difficulties maintaining cerebral blood flow will cause or at least worsen ADHD symptoms.

Now when I first came across the information my impression was that this dynamic would be associated only with tissue hyperelasticity-- but on closer evaluation it became apparent that ability to turn on core muscle tone plays a very big role too.

When we sit fully upright (classic Buddhist meditation posture) or stand with an erect spine (as per Qi Gong or Pilates) we turn our core muscle tone on.
When we are traumatised- or in a shame state (a variant of trauma that is deliberately inflicted as a means of discipline) we slump and turn our core off.

When the core is turned off, the abdomen relaxes and more of our circulating blood volume then pools in our gut when we stand up.

Then we have the issue of insufficient available blood volume to maintain adequate blood flow to the brain-- and we become foggy and confused +/-
hyperactive and restless as our system struggles to keep us operating.

In short the type of dysregulation of autonomic activity produced in some trauma states will produce the same style of cerebral blood flow dysregulation as tissue hyperelasticity syndromes will do.

For reference background reading I would suggest Prof Stephen Porges website (Polyvagal Theory).

The material on Dr Robert Scaer's website (called traumasoma -- I think) will also give some background.


The bottom line is that for stable and effective attention to be manifested a platform of stable autonomic function and adequate brain perfusion is a necessary pre-condition.

This model also provides a remarkably sound explanation for the intermittency of ADHD symptoms- and explains those days when our attention works well.

In addition - it is one that lends itself to clinical assessment very easily
looking for physical signs of a stress response such as pallor, sweatiness, limited non verbal communication cues, and tremor-- or more specific cardiovascular signs such as resting tachycardia, poor stabilisation of heart rate or absolute drop in blood pressure on prolonged standing.

What is particularly striking about the pallor is that it will resolve on lying the patient down. Anaemia does not do that

Close history taking will expose the association between symptoms and posture as well.

This paper touches on the same subject:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3990390/


Conclusion

Comparison of the autonomic function by analyzing HRV suggests an increase in the activity of the parasympathetic autonomic nervous systems in children with ADHD in relation to the control group.
[quote]


That is consistent with a complex trauma pattern.


see also:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3786007/
Affective Decision-Making and Externalizing Behaviors: The Role of Autonomic Activity

[quote]
In sum, the inclusion of affective decision-making and autonomic activity contributes to conceptualizations of the maintenance and exacerbation of ADHD and ODD symptoms. In particular, affective decision-making and sympathetic activation in emotion-inducing circumstances likely contribute to ADHD-H symptoms among boys in high-risk, impoverished environments.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918238/

Marital Conflict and Children’s Externalizing Behavior: Pathways Involving Interactions between Parasympathetic and Sympathetic Nervous System Activity

[quote]
Vagal tone reflects the status of the PNS at rest and perhaps the ability to sustain attentional focus, engage in social communication, and maintain homeostasis under normal circumstances (Porges, 1991 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918238/#R112), 2007 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918238/#R120)). Low vagal tone is characteristic of both externalizing and internalizing problems and thus has been viewed as a nonspecific index of emotion dysregulation in children (Beauchaine, 2001 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918238/#R11)). Vagal withdrawal represents parasympathetic inhibition and reflects awareness of environmental challenge and the mobilization of physiological and attentional resources to mount an active stress response (Bornstein & Suess, 2000 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918238/#R20); Huffman et al., 1998 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918238/#R84); Porges, 1996 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918238/#R116), 2007 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918238/#R120)). Vagal withdrawal accelerates heart rate and increases metabolic output, facilitating engagement or attempts to cope with environmental demands. Vagal augmentation, or parasympathetic activation, in the context of environmental stress may indicate a failure to generate physiological resources that promote engagement with environmental demands. Whereas vagal augmentation is linked with negative adjustment outcomes, vagal withdrawal in stressful circumstances may promote adaptive coping and emotion regulation and appears to be the more adaptive response to environmental challenges (Porges, 2007 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918238/#R120)).

and the cnclusion:

Many children are exposed to high levels of destructive marital conflict, and the damaging effects of such exposure are well documented. An important objective for investigators, therefore, is to better understand which children face heightened vulnerability for maladjustment and why their risk is elevated. The studies included in this monograph advance this objective, investigating interactions among marital conflict and the parasympathetic and sympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system (ANS) in the prediction of child externalizing problems. The combined results across studies support a consistent picture and provide compelling evidence in support of our biopsychosocial conceptualization of child adjustment, in which interactions between physiological systems involved in stress response moderate the association between parental marital conflict and child externalizing behaviors. More specifically, opposing action of the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous systems (PNS and SNS) (i.e., coactivation and coinhibition) operated as a vulnerability factor for externalizing behavior in the context of marital conflict, whereas reciprocal action of the PNS and SNS (i.e., reciprocal sympathetic activation and reciprocal parasympathetic activation) operated as a protective factor. This pattern of findings emerged consistently in studies with multimethod and multi-informant designs, including mother, father, and child reports of marital conflict; mother, father, and teacher reports of various child externalizing problems; and physiological data on child responses to different laboratory stress tasks. In addition, findings held across various measures of externalizing problems, including subtypes of aggressive behavior (i.e., physical, reactive) and conduct problems (i.e., delinquent, inattentive-hyperactive).

BEar in mind that ADHD is classified as an "externalising disorder" though many inattentive symptoms are better understood as being "internalising".

meadd823
09-28-14, 08:29 AM
okay well my darn bowers finally started working and now the brain has decided it has had enough for the night. I could tell by the way they were posted they were a "pair"

I have read the hyper elasticity when my brain wakes up I may be in a better position to ask semi-intelligent questions.

Thanks for the thoughtful response

daveddd
09-28-14, 09:38 AM
great stuff, this is very linked with my adhd

a small addition i think is interesting

http://books.google.com/books?id=0i-FAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA45&dq=social+threat+cortical+and+midbrain+responses&hl=en&sa=X&ei=frYcVOjfKZSfyATz-4GQDw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=social%20threat%20cortical%20and%20midbrain%20re sponses&f=false

Kunga Dorji
09-28-14, 10:06 AM
great stuff, this is very linked with my adhd

a small addition i think is interesting

http://books.google.com/books?id=0i-FAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA45&dq=social+threat+cortical+and+midbrain+responses&hl=en&sa=X&ei=frYcVOjfKZSfyATz-4GQDw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=social%20threat%20cortical%20and%20midbrain%20re sponses&f=false

Yes - very interesting thankyou.
There are some great "hacks" for mesolimbic hyperactivation-- includung, amusingly enough- rose coloured glasses. (I AM being serious here too!)

daveddd
09-28-14, 10:11 AM
it seems intrusive shameful memories activate this freeze for me

is it possible for it to cause (possible temporary or of varying lengths) loss of access to all emotion?

daveddd
09-28-14, 10:14 AM
also brief observation

on a rare day with good med control and mindfulness, i constantly find myself correcting my slumped posture

and the constant cracking tells me its normally awful

daveddd
09-28-14, 10:54 AM
also brief observation

on a rare day with good med control and mindfulness, i constantly find myself correcting my slumped posture

and the constant cracking tells me its normally awful

ill also switch from social avoidance to social seeking

sometimes that gets a bit unregulated as well in the upward trajectory

mildadhd
09-28-14, 02:58 PM
Types of negative feeling secondary anxious and/or depressive conditioned emotional responses

Feelings originating from primary FEAR and/or GRIEF/PANIC unconditioned emotional response systems.


FEAR system (freeze response during lower intensity threats) (flight response during higher intensity threats)

GRIEF/PANIC system (depression, separation anxiety).


Anxious and depressive experiences meant to promote development and survival.

Chronic anxious and depressive experiences interfere with development and survival.

(Specifics depend on individual temperament and individual experiences/circumstances)

My own layman interpretation of Prof Panksepp's work, I'm learning please leave room for error.

Opinions/additions appreciated.



P

Kunga Dorji
09-29-14, 03:30 AM
ill also switch from social avoidance to social seeking

sometimes that gets a bit unregulated as well in the upward trajectory


I know that feeling.
The insightless would cal this dynamic "bipolar".

I call it just feeling physically well enough to get out there and make friends!

Kunga Dorji
09-29-14, 03:34 AM
Types of negative feeling secondary anxious and/or depressive conditioned emotional responses

Feelings originating from primary FEAR and/or GRIEF/PANIC unconditioned emotional response systems.


FEAR system (freeze response during lower intensity threats) (flight response during higher intensity threats)

GRIEF/PANIC system (depression, separation anxiety).


Anxious and depressive experiences meant to promote development and survival.

Chronic anxious and depressive experiences interfere with development and survival.

(Specifics depend on individual temperament and individual experiences/circumstances)

My own layman interpretation of Prof Panksepp's work, I'm learning please leave room for error.

Opinions/additions appreciated.



P


I am going to have to look at Panksepp's work, aren't I?

I do wonder though what the adaptive advantages of panic are.
Maybe its ability to cause contagion and get the tribe running in all directions is important? (IE panic helps scatter the flock/tribe at times of crisis - thereby maximising the odds of survival for the next generation- or some members of it?)

Kunga Dorji
09-29-14, 03:37 AM
it seems intrusive shameful memories activate this freeze for me

is it possible for it to cause (possible temporary or of varying lengths) loss of access to all emotion?

Very much so-- in fact that blanking out of severe emotional trauma has a protective advantage in the short term.

It is only when the trauma remains unresolved that we lose the ability to feel.

This is why being stuck in a school full of bullies with parents who refuse to move you is so destructive- or being stuck in a disturbed, angry family for that matter.

SB_UK
09-29-14, 06:10 AM
So schoolplace bullying, home bullying -

but what of workplace bullying ? (this is more rampant than I'd ever imagined)
and whatabout reaching an understanding that entire workplace assignments have it in for you ?

ie the dentist wants your teeth to rot, the private medic wants you to return and return, the vet wants you to have as many meds from him as possible (massive mark up on meds), the lawyer (eg divorce) wants you to bicker ... ...

so reaching an understanding that all human beings in the workplace are in effect bullies (forcing you down the 'suboptimal destined to fail cure' rather than preventative (making something which lasts) approach ie that all people have your worst interests at heart (courtesy of what they do for a living)

- how does that figure.

The idea which comes to mind is the image that all people who work for money are vipers.

Would that be classed as an 'intrusive shameful memory' - because each time I enter into this line of thinking I feel genuinely ashamed of people - how people are.

It's a little different to outright bullying - but with standard bullying it is possible to get help ie school/home bullying abuse is fairly well catered for - with respect to support services.

But workplace bullying - and you're out of a job without a reference letter if you attempt to do the right thing (whistle blow) - and as for having one's eyes opened to the nasty underlying nature (bullying isn't a strong enough word) of the job type - that's genuinely off most people's radar -

and this insight really is so much more distressful than the other forms of abuse/bullying - because as opposed to school/home and even workplace (to some extent) - there's no escaping the need for money.

How do we simultaneously strive for survival (a basic evolutionary drive) when survival requires money (the deepest level of immorality) - where morality is a property of the complete human mind ?

This drives my freeze response because I've 2 prime directives -

survival (basic evol.) -> <- immorality (our latest emergent property) and I can't make them sit together.

It's the ultimate in logical dysjunctions - the basic evolutionary thrust to survive versus the prime directive of mind.

SB_UK
09-29-14, 06:13 AM
So the image is of walking - one foot off the floor - momentum about to carry you forward - frozen (quivering) and the two places we can put our foot down are clearly labelled land mine.

-*-

The interesting question to ask is why ?

School bully - often either very poor / very rich
Parental bully - often relating to parental love of money ('and Jeremy was something that mummy couldn't wear)
Workplace bully - to get on, to make more money
Any workplace which involves money and not voluntaryism - fosters the love/desire of money

It's all simply the result of human beings fostering a reward system which does not work for personal reward but for material world (money) reward.
Different directives (technical, perceived obsolescence) become the drivers underlying an employees' functioning.
These aren't in the best interests of their clientele only their corporation.

A set of 'rules' are incorporated into the human mind - which scrambles the mind - prevents the mind from developing towards a rational understanding of morality
- the individual is driven further down the addictive path (of money, fame etc) and isn't allowed (because of the mind upon which they perceive reality) to achieve freedom (period) - though more generally - a form of freedom which permits the individual happiness through simple existence.

Nothing to prove.

SB_UK
09-29-14, 09:32 AM
What do you think ?
Trauma + ADHD paper in Cell

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1683822#post1683822

(Times article copied out a little later in thread)

Basic thrust - summary
Novel situation (immoral society) -> Stress (NE in ACC) -> Deletion of useless memories (ie immersed in precedent) -> replacement (creative) with novel model of reality (specified) through the ACC -
new model definition = a sustainable model of existence / survival for the species.

It doesn't help for us to know any of what we've generated previously - only small amounts of it are useful - the overarching need is for us to move out of the 'good old day' mindset when UK ? France ? USA ? etc was great - and to transition to a 1 sustainable model of mind.

mildadhd
09-29-14, 01:05 PM
We are just coming to terms with the brain mechanisms of the profound sadness that arises from social loss.

The wonderful imaging of the higher brain mechanisms that are recruited during grief and sadness (Freed et al., 2009) often fail to do justice to the ancient sub cortical mechanisms for separation distress (Panksepp, Herman et al., 1980), a neuroanatomical trajectory that was eventually confirmed with human brain imaging, as summarized in Figure 9.1 (Damasio et al., 2000; Panksepp, 2003a).

Under comparable testing conditions, where volunteers were requested to generate four distinct emotions from their memories--namely GRIEF, JOY, RAGE and FEAR (see figure 12.1)--with strong feelings of sadness, the GRIEF system showed the clearest and most extensive arousal.

The general anatomy of human GRIEF system was the same as the system that mediates separation calls, as mapped in animals.

This key system for feeling the sting of social isolation appears to have arisen evolutionary from brain systems that mediate the affective intensity of physical pain.

It is also noteworthy that this ancient subcortical brain system for affective aspects of pain is different than systems that loop to higher brain regions to mediate the cognitive-discriminative aspects of pain.


As noted earlier, we formerly called this the PANIC system because when young animals are abandoned, they experience a special form of alarmed anxiety--an agitated panicky state.

We favoured this term because there were good reasons to suspect that panic attacks stemmed, in part, from excessive arousability of this primary emotional system (for a recent overview, see Preter & Klein, 2008).

However, many readers found the label confusing, probably because when older people are deprived of companionship, they tend to feel lonely and sad rather than panicky like little children.

Of course, this only reflects the tertiary-process ruminations of adults, who have a lifetime of ways to cognitively adjust to social loss, lessons that young children have yet to learn (for a contemporary discussion of human loneliness research, see Cacioppo & Patrick, 2008).

Nevertheless, because of confusions about our intent in using the term PANIC, we have simply decided to call this PANIC/GRIEF (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1636861&postcount=1) system GRIEF in this chapter.



Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter: "Born to Cry", P 314-316.


i!i i!i i!i

daveddd
09-29-14, 01:38 PM
Kd do you know about or have any information on opiodes blockers and a dissociative state.

I've read a few put all positive studies about using naltrexone with good results on dissociation, repression and the emotional numbing in ptsd. Which are all probably the same thing

SB_UK
09-29-14, 02:04 PM
Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter: "Born to Cry", P 314-316.


i!i i!i i!i

The problem though is that with mind.

There's nothing to panic about.
There's nothing to grieve about.

grief?
Your children WILL die.

panic?
It doesn't matter if your economic system collapses (KD comment on FB) and your money is rendered worthless.

I genuinely can't see how mind balances with panic/grief.
Now it's possible to see panic/grief operate on mind in a society which is not logical (moral) - but it's only a matter of time before that society is overturned and all people get to see that there's 'nothing to get hung (panic/grief or more generally irrationally emotional on a self-destructive theme) about'.

-*-

The problem is that most of the emotions particularly panic and grief are dispensed with, with completion of mind.

The loss of material world attachment could well represent the loss of these 7 emotions.

Awe (natural beauty), Quality (the sound or texture of something), Beauty
- these are the 'new' emotions which I think wipe aside the emotions from our evolutionary journey - and which take the place of predecessors upon completion of mind/wisdom.

SB_UK
09-29-14, 02:14 PM
Kd do you know about or have any information on opiodes blockers and a dissociative state.

I've read a few put all positive studies about using naltrexone with good results on dissociation, repression and the emotional numbing in ptsd. Which are all probably the same thing

Meaning that the endogenous opioid system has a role in helping us dissociate ? ie to creatively extend ourselves - albeit carefully and not forced/violently - where problems ensue.

PTSD is known to result in a deletion of memories.

So - at level of mind

very mild trauma -> cognitive dissonance -> NE in ACC -> deletion of 1 model of reality -> instate another model of reality ie the creative process of building mind as the replacement of 1 set of explanatory models with a more explanatory set of explanatory models over reality/context

- where PTSD violently rewrites an individual's memory - abusing a system which is meant to be a delicate learning (redefinition) of understanding from knowing nothing to understanding everything
- widespread deletion - nothing put in its place.

Mental derangement.

-*-

So - as a suggestion - that the known effects of PTSD on memory rewriting invoke the same basic mechanism (stress,NE in ACC upon cognitive dissonance) of improving one's own mind (understanding of context).

Kunga Dorji
09-29-14, 07:36 PM
Kd do you know about or have any information on opiodes blockers and a dissociative state.

I've read a few put all positive studies about using naltrexone with good results on dissociation, repression and the emotional numbing in ptsd. Which are all probably the same thing


No, I don't - but yes they probably are the same thing.
My personal preference would be to use mindfulness techniques to progressively reintroduce body awareness.
This needs to be done gently to avoid flooding and re-activating trauma-- and often works best in conjunction with something likeYoga/ Qi Gong.

Medications are always a blunt instrument.

SB_UK
09-30-14, 08:25 AM
So - extreme distress (PTSD) and extreme levels of narcotic (heroin) as operating in the same basic way towards dissociation.

Still checking this idea out

Dissociation as a mechanism for creative construction of the mind - because the structure needs to extend itself beyond its current construction.

However extreme dissociation at its core - operates in the same way.

It'd be nice to hypothesze a collective structure of mind which dissociation accesses and returns with a solution to a problem - should that solution exist ie to imagine a solution kinda' relies on the ability to find a solution from somewhere.

I wonder whether a form of stable dissociation is what we're after ?

Stable dissociation from reality could be seen as yet another way of describing religions' loss of attachment from material reality.

I guess it all depends on whether you want to be perpetually 'present' or 'absent'.

I kinda' like 'absent'.

Absent meaning in an unstressed dream-like state.

But how can you do anything useful ?

Useful ? Useful ?

The point is to be happy
Not to write a thousand books which nobody will read.

An impressive CV and then you die - knowing that you hadn't written 1001.

SB_UK
09-30-14, 08:31 AM
It'd be nice to hypothesze a collective structure of mind which dissociation accesses and returns with a solution to a problem - should that solution exist ie to imagine a solution kinda' relies on the ability to find a solution from somewhere.
Which is this idea (from previously)

The Power of Daydreaming (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-daydreaming)
Wake Your Creative Abilities
Which also connects to the creativity in theta EEG - which ADDers are characterized by.
So ...... :yes: since NE in ACC drives creativity (the parallel thread)- what we have is a sensitivity to stress neurotransmitters which helps us to create a new model of reality (through being finely tuned to errors in our current understanding of reality)

- a sensitivity to stress which relates most importantly to logical errors in understanding
- but a sensitivity to stress which is triggered willy nilly in a world which is run along immoral lines ie

sensitivity sensitized

- where our core sensitivity is towards identifying logical inconsistencies in ideas - a good thing.

SB_UK
09-30-14, 08:37 AM
So ... ... ... we know that the mind is our current emergent property ie have only had one for a bit.
We know that evolutionary emergent properties are meant to maximise our chances of survival not curtail them - which is what mind is doing.
We know ADDers are highly sensitive.
We've extended this to highly sensitive to stress (distress).
We've connected stress nt NE localized to the ACC as being important in generating novel solutions to life threatening problems when all that we know is useless.
We make ADDers particularly sensitive to this very specific mechanism and we've a new type which is custom geared to providing us with a solution of how to ensure continued (and actually happy for a change) existence ... ...

but place a stress sensitive type (most notably at level of logical inconsistency with species wellbeing) in a highly stressful environment ie our competitive world of money - and the ADDer falls apart - because there's no way for our mind to disable itself in order to exist to a model of behaviour which is immoral.

SB_UK
09-30-14, 08:41 AM
So - to KD's question of the core sensitivity to ADDer.

our core sensitivity is towards identifying logical inconsistencies in ideas - a good thing.


A core sensitivity which assists completion in our highest emergent property (mind) and which restores balance between it and the actual evolutionary prime directive of ensuring survival (happy) ((since unhappy survival isn't survival to mind)).

So - driven insane* by ideas which don't make sense.

The necessary quality of a scientist.

* into a dissociative state to locate a solution in collective space or in simple language - a google search on the Internet of mind.

Dissociation is what the young people of day call the lag from hitting the enter key to ... ... ... receiving a response from our repository of organized global knowledge - and being enlightened (one google search at a time) until full on enlightenment (the individual understands their own context) is ours.

daveddd
09-30-14, 09:24 AM
No, I don't - but yes they probably are the same thing.
My personal preference would be to use mindfulness techniques to progressively reintroduce body awareness.
This needs to be done gently to avoid flooding and re-activating trauma-- and often works best in conjunction with something likeYoga/ Qi Gong.

Medications are always a blunt instrument.

Yea I try. My mind feels like it has brick wall around it though. Maybe with a small crack here and there

SB_UK
09-30-14, 09:37 AM
I kinda' like 'absent'.

Absent meaning in an unstressed dream-like state.


“Beyond our ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing,
there is a field. I’ll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase ‘each other’
doesn’t make sense any more.”

Nothing is real and there's nothing to get hung about-*-

Simple explanation

A mind which understands evolution from 13.8 billion years ago to generation/completion of mind - is freed from an animal model of reality (material world) and presented with a spiritual existence where dissociation from 'ideas, language,individuality' occurs.

But we love our ideas, our language, our individuality
problem -> and we want ownership of the idea, stewardship over how the language is used and fight for our nation and ego driven competitive practices.

So - does the individual no longer have ideas, have language, have an identity with wisdom ?

Yes the individual does - but the relationship to them change.
They're not your ideas - they're ideas.
It's not your language - it's language.
Nothing is 'yours' - as ownership (the primitive reward system which seeks individual/exclusive ownership of things) ceases to attract.

Maybe I'd even go further though - perhaps there is no real further use for ideas/language/idea of self in that state - by that I mean you're happy
- in silence in the sun.

Who needs words (the incessant chattering) to destroy the silence of immersion in sensory experience ?

Question - mind keeps us - by chattering incessantly - from finally 'going out to play' ... ...

mildadhd
09-30-14, 01:38 PM
Consider a Caregiver intentionally distracting a "charging" nuritionally challenged saber-tooth tiger, while the children run away, and hide.

Fight (RAGE system), freeze or flight (FEAR system)

Crying reunites young mamillian Children with Caregivers after being separated. (PANIC/GRIEF system)


The seven known (so far) unconditioned emotional response systems are capitalized to show that terminology is focusing on the primary affective states of control.



The PANIC/GRIEF system, like the FEAR system and the RAGE system are complex unconditioned emotional response systems, genetic instinctual bad feeling systems.

The General SEEKING/expectancy system is a complex unconditioned emotional response system. (genetic pos. motivation feeling system). (Example see 8 Dopaminergic pathways (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways) )

The LUST system, the CARE system and the PLAY system are unconditioned emotional response systems. (genetic instinctual positive feeling systems)



(feels bad) PANIC/GRIEF, RAGE, FEAR,------SEEKING------LUST, CARE, PLAY (feels good)


To much negative bad-------------------balance(homeostasis good)balance-----------------to much positive bad






(anything not quoted in this thread are my layman interpretation.)

SB_UK
09-30-14, 02:49 PM
Consider a Caregiver intentionally distracting a "charging" nuritionally challenged saber-tooth tiger, while the children run away, and hide.

Fight (RAGE system), freeze or flight (FEAR system)

Crying reunites young mamillian Children with Caregivers after being separated. (PANIC/GRIEF system)



But those days are gone.

Consider a Caregiver intentionally distracting a "charging" morally challenged saber-tooth banker with a repossession order, while the children run away, and hide.

Fight (RAGE system), freeze or flight (FEAR system)

Crying reunites young mamillian Children with Caregivers after being separated. (PANIC/GRIEF system)



But those days are nearly gone.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11129108/Mass-default-looms-as-world-sinks-beneath-a-sea-of-debt.html

Leaving ... ...


~quality~ time

SB_UK
09-30-14, 02:55 PM
KD on the guitar
Peripheral on the kazoo
DaveDDD on the drums

dub reggae

I have some josticks.

SB_UK
09-30-14, 02:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxjvlPgKo_M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxjvlPgKo_M)



sweet ?

mildadhd
09-30-14, 03:15 PM
KD on the guitar
Peripheral on the kazoo
DaveDDD on the drums

dub reggae

I have some josticks.

:)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=53gQ1mUUG3o

mildadhd
09-30-14, 03:36 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyr92OtzTI0

mildadhd
09-30-14, 04:04 PM
PLAY: PLAY is the brain system that produces the kind of roughhousing play all young animals and humans do at the same stage in their development.

The parts of the brain that motivate PLAY are in the subcortex. (*15)

No one understands the nature of playing or the PLAY system in the brain well yet, although we do know that PLAY behavior is probably a sign of good welfare, because an animal that's depressed, frightened, or angry doesn't play.

The PLAY system produces feelings of joy.


Taken together, these seven emotions--especially the first four--explain why some environments are good for animals (and people) and others are bad...



Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", P 9.


i!i i!i i!I

mildadhd
09-30-14, 04:19 PM
great stuff, this is very linked with my adhd

a small addition i think is interesting

http://books.google.com/books?id=0i-FAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA45&dq=social+threat+cortical+and+midbrain+responses&hl=en&sa=X&ei=frYcVOjfKZSfyATz-4GQDw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=social%20threat%20cortical%20and%20midbrain%20re sponses&f=false


If SEEKING attachment reduces PANIC/GRIEF?

Does methyphenidate also partly reduce PANIC/GRIEF?


A taxonomy of the Midbrain's range of defense responses.

-orientation to threat
-Avoidance: Withdraw, Hide, Cringe Responses
-Flight
-Fight
-Freeze
-Immobility
-Submit
-Attach (SEEKING to reduce PANIC)


Frank M Corrigan, Chapter 2, "Threat and Safety the Neurobiology of Active and Passive Defense Responses", P 38.

SB_UK
10-01-14, 06:13 AM
If SEEKING attachment reduces PANIC/GRIEF?

Does methyphenidate also partly reduce PANIC/GRIEF?

I'm kinda' working under the idea that stimulant medication works as stress relief ie when you're ground down from life and have no motivation to do anything ... ... up pops stimulant medication which re-introduces motivation.

So panic/grief -> stress and so ritalin 'd reduce the distress of panic/grief by supplying a little of the other side (positive happy energised) we're meant to derive from positive happy energised behaviours.

Just that in a world of money there are no happy energising positive behaviours.

Just competition for something that you don't want.

SB_UK
10-01-14, 06:19 AM
Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", P 9.


i!i i!i i!I

'play' -
in the context of my post would be - 'stop' ie the idea of the need for rest to consolidate any new idea or skill ... ...

play
rest

- the idea of 'sleeping on it' - how ideas seem to settle with time - though not time actively considering - just time to allow ideas to settle.

Play ?
Not active use of mind.

Switch into auto-pilot ?

An experiential space where the mind organizes.

Want to connect play/rest etc because of it's disconnection to active use of mind - back to dissociation in normal life - back to daydreaming/creativity.

And what emerges is a startling number of words to describe exactly the same thing.

Or the creative process of the mind re-organizing itself with the accumulation of new information ie learning.

SB_UK
10-01-14, 06:27 AM
So - summarising

A stress based (NE nt) / dissociation mechanism to learning in which new information clashes, battles, wins and re-organizes within the individual's mind in what could be called active mind (thinking) downtime or when dissociated from mind.

Overload = the need to re-organize mind before continuing.

It's all a bit like obsessively tidying up one's house.
And putting everything into neatly labelled boxes.

Grrrr!!!

In the smallest space possible.
And easily accessible too.

SB_UK
10-01-14, 06:35 AM
Now - as somebody who does this:

It's all a bit like obsessively tidying up one's house.
And putting everything into neatly labelled boxes.

Grrrr!!!

In the smallest space possible.
And easily accessible too.

What's the point ?

It's to have an empty house.

Now explain that in another way.

I know that I know nothing

It's a state of mind where you can work everything out from more fundamental principles and so you don't actually feel as if you know anything.

The triumph of understanding over knowledge.

SB_UK
10-01-14, 07:14 AM
So - as the mental rearrangement towards emptiness occurs - so the physical rearrangement to emptiness occurs

- the minimalist design outside and its association with zen, emptiness, the feeling of a logically consistent model for {reality, understanding, human wellbeing} = understanding.

Understanding as logically connected knowledge.

And what does the pursuit of knowledge and not understanding result in ?
Confusion

We don't do what's right - only what serves our affiliated system.

SB_UK
10-01-14, 07:16 AM
To cultivate one's garden

Once again a connection.

What's bewildering is the number of different ways of expressing the same idea.

Ultimately the sole idea there is to understand one's context.

-*-

Simply - challenging one's mind to incorporate all evidence-based observations (science) (ie we don't need to incorporate any ideas of fiction) - results in deletion of knowledge structure - replacement with understanding structure.

One feels that one knows nothing when one understands everything.
Particular reference to Richard Feynmann.

Also to vedanta - end of knowledge and to the idea of completion of mind
- of wisdom = enlightenment

and to a species which elevates itself from material world through incorporating a model for evolution (involving a supernatural fundamental substrate) achieves happiness or the monistic state of bliss - leaving the dualistic state of happiness / sadness where happiness requires sadness behind.

-*-

Suggestion that understanding replaces the tree of knowledge (which is the same as the tree of knowledge of good and evil)
- and no longer tasked with attaining understanding - the individual is freed from the primitive reward system.

Often described as the love/desire of money (materialism) - but under the cover - the exact same thrust which drives people (particularly the academic) to acquire selfish knowledge (ie to be known as the person who ... ...) ie to describe material world attachment as simply selfish behaviour which isn't sufficiently specified by materialism - the love/desire of (selfish) knowledge which the individual benefits from at the expense of the collective is very much a part of the material world attachment paradigm which blights human beings into behaving as though the species're without minds (without morality).

SB_UK
10-01-14, 08:02 AM
Trauma and ADHD- the freeze response.

So - I guess I'm suggesting that in a world which is consistent with a moral mind - that no body will suffer trauma.
That the freeze response is an extreme case of what occurs in mind when 2 conflicting ideas are held - one wins - the model of understanding changes ... ... ie imagine a computer program which encounters 2 conflicting commands - we must do this as we learn - but we need one to win - or we'll freeze in much the same way that our software often grinds to an obstinate halt.


However - that trauma is an extreme version of stress - and that a lower form of stress is used in the learning process
- and that we can see the effects when we look at PTSD on memory vs learning on memory (an individual's world view)

ie a stress-based mechanism (NE nt) involved in 'correcting' a flawed (we have no model of reality at birth) to a 'complete' (wisdom,enlightenment) model of reality at the point where we may consider ourselves to have (at last) become properly human.

== enforced moral consistency.

-*-

The ADDer's increased sensitivity relating to stress sensitivity relating to increased sensitivity to stress at the simultaneous attempt to house 2 logically conflicting ideas ie cognitive dissonance -
hurts us more.

You can see why we're running away from mind - holding mind is like an exercise in pain as we encounter conflict after conflict - which we (Can) struggle - dependent on the technical language we're conformatble with - to resolve.

SB_UK
10-01-14, 08:23 AM
play

Why can't work be play ?

So we desperately try to find time to engage in hobbies.

Why can't hobbies be what we do between 9 and 5 and work be eliminated.

All that separates work from a hobby (since hobbies include all of those things which we require to survive)
- is that hobbies do not pay - are examples of voluntaryism.

SB_UK
10-01-14, 08:25 AM
So question - only the individual who operates under a voluntaryism (ie gains nothing from that thing) be it gardening to philosophy is actually a true gardener/philosopher.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091215132449AA6oS8q

One day, the protagonists seek out a dervish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dervish) known as a great philosopher of the land. Pangloss asks him why Man is made to suffer so, and what they all ought to do.
According to Buddhism, at the time of his awakening he realized complete insight into the cause of suffering

People really need to stop talking and try listening for a change.

Loss of material world attachment is the basis to overcoming suffering.

Kunga Dorji
10-01-14, 06:00 PM
Yea I try. My mind feels like it has brick wall around it though. Maybe with a small crack here and there

There is a crack in everything.
That's where the light gets in.

Leonard Cohen-- I think.

SB_UK
10-02-14, 03:55 AM
There is a crack in everything.
That's where the light gets in.

Leonard Cohen-- I think.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/image.php?u=28489&dateline=1394880192
.........^
.........|


Leonard Cohen et allot of other chaps

mildadhd
10-04-14, 11:55 AM
I'm going solo. :)

In my opinion, the importance of mindfullness (tertiary processes level of control) and learning (secondary processes level of control) about "ADHD and Trauma - the freeze response", will never be wholly understood, without including the preverbal biology of the unconditioned emotional response systems (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1680103&postcount=2) (primary states of control) into the discussion.

Example


Affective neuroscience of the emotional BrainMind: evolutionary perspectives and implications for understanding depression



Abstract

Cross-species affective neuroscience studies confirm that primary-process emotional feelings are organized within primitive subcortical regions of the brain that are anatomically, neurochemically, and functionally homologous in all mammals that have been studied. Emotional feelings (affects) are intrinsic values that inform animals how they are faring in the quest to survive. The various positive affects indicate that animals are returning to “comfort zones” that support survival, and negative affects reflect “discomfort zones” that indicate that animals are in situations that may impair survival. They are ancestral tools for living - evolutionary memories of such importance that they were coded into the genome in rough form (as primary brain processes), which are refined by basic learning mechanisms (secondary processes) as well as by higher-order cognitions/thoughts (tertiary processes). To understand why depression feels horrible, we must fathom the affective infrastructure of the mammalian brain. Advances in our understanding of the nature of primary-process emotional affects can promote the development of better preclinical models of psychiatric disorders and thereby also allow clinicians new and useful ways to understand the foundational aspects of their clients' problems. These networks are of clear importance for understanding psychiatric disorders and advancing psychiatric practice.

Keywords: depression, affect, emotion, grief, seeking, play, endophenotype, affective neuroscience


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181986/?report=classic

mildadhd
10-04-14, 12:37 PM
But what systems are they?

Here, arguments for the critical importance of brain systems that integrate the distress and despair of separation-distress (overactivity of basic PANIC/GRIEF networks) and the diminished arousal of SEEKING networks that constitute dysphoria will be presented.

Excessive arousal of SEEKING urges may contribute substantially to mania and psychostimulant addictions, leading to excessive elation/euphoria, arising from excessive appetitive dopamine SEEKING urges, which can promote unwise life choices.1

(Capitalizations highlight the need for a specialized vocabulary when discussing the evolutionary foundations of the mind. Vernacular terms have excess meanings, and thus will not suffice for clear discourse)..






http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181986/?report=classic

SB_UK
10-04-14, 01:32 PM
- the distress and despair of separation-distress (overactivity of basic PANIC/GRIEF networks) and the diminished arousal of SEEKING networks that constitute dysphoria will be presented.

Excessive arousal of SEEKING urges may contribute substantially to mania and psychostimulant addictions, leading to excessive elation/euphoria, arising from excessive appetitive dopamine SEEKING urges, which can promote unwise life choices.PANIC vs SEEKING
DISTRESS vs OVERCOMING DISTRESS

No problem in absence of distress ?

-*-

try again -
reflect “discomfort zones” that indicate that animals are in situations that may impair survivalPassing through

wikiP/social rejection
wikiP/social isolation
wikiP/hikikomori
Hikikomori i.e., "acute social withdrawal") Hikikomori is similar to the social withdrawal exhibited by ... a group of disorders that include Asperger syndrome, ... and "classic" autism.
... to suggest that hikikomori sufferers may be affected by [problems with] social integration.Autism graph - exponential increase in 80's when money (capitalism) seized ahold.

-*-

Suggestion
Failure to form an all inclusive social group (because of money, religious labels, country labels, colour labels etc) result in a society which (unsurprisingly) falls apart.

The social structure needs to be all inclusive and enforce equality of man.

Meaning an end to hierarchical power structures (government) and hierarchical control structures (essentially money).

-*-

While hikikomori is mostly a Japanese phenomenon, cases have been found in the United States, Oman, Spain, Italy, South Korea and France.[5][9] Recent research using the same standardized definition of hikikomori has found evidence of it existing in other countries as wide-ranging as the United States and India.Is social exclusion bad.

What is the monastery ?

Mightn't a perfect social group manifest itself as a society of individual recluses ?

ie autonomy is a major part of what we aspire to -
and so with full autonomy comes the reclusive trait ?

There's something icky about how human beings in rotten society do social life - it generally is divisive and elite - as though socializing isn't very social at all and is more anti-social (from an independent observer perspective) than social.

-*-

So - in the midst of a transition to a fair global society of autonomous souls - a true global social structure which *may* mimic a planet of recluses ?

mildadhd
10-04-14, 02:05 PM
PANIC vs SEEKING
DISTRESS vs OVERCOMING DISTRESS

No problem in absence of distress ?

-*-

try again -Passing through

wikiP/social rejection
wikiP/social isolation
wikiP/hikikomori
Autism graph - exponential increase in 80's when money (capitalism) seized ahold.

-*-

Suggestion
Failure to form an all inclusive social group (because of money, religious labels, country labels, colour labels etc) result in a society which (unsurprisingly) falls apart.

The social structure needs to be all inclusive and enforce equality of man.

Meaning an end to hierarchical power structures (government) and hierarchical control structures (essentially money).

-*-

Is social exclusion bad.

What is the monastery ?

Mightn't a perfect social group manifest itself as a society of individual recluses ?

ie autonomy is a major part of what we aspire to -
and so with full autonomy comes the reclusive trait ?

There's something icky about how human beings in rotten society do social life - it generally is divisive and elite - as though socializing isn't very social at all and is more anti-social (from an independent observer perspective) than social.

-*-

So - in the midst of a transition to a fair global society of autonomous souls - a true global social structure which *may* mimic a planet of recluses ?

I'm focusing on what all humans on earth have in common.




P

SB_UK
10-04-14, 02:13 PM
I'm focusing on what all humans on earth have in common.
P

An unconditioned affinity for + and aversion for - emotions

ie people like pleasure and hate pain ?

This doesn't have to be taught or learnt.

But that's more what animals have in common than humans.
Or maybe life ?

SB_UK
10-04-14, 02:17 PM
PANIC vs SEEKING
DISTRESS vs OVERCOMING DISTRESS

No problem in absence of distress ?


To be fair this idea is that there's - and the goal is to overcome - ie pleasure/pain is better described as pain/pleasure

-- that what all animals hate is pain ?

Not pain (overcoming suffering) is the goal.

mildadhd
10-04-14, 05:21 PM
Parents will want to know about these systems in order to asses normal development in their children.

If one sees a felicitous balance of all systems, this indicates that children are developing in emotionally healthy ways.

But if a particular system is over--or under--aroused, this may indicate a problem.

For example, an excessively studious or serious child may have an underactive PLAY system.

The PLAY system allows children to learn about social rules of conduct--for example, when to cooperate and when to compete, and at times to retreat in good-humoured ways and let someone else win.

When animals engage in rough and tumble play and one animal wins more than 70% of the time, the losing animal no longer enjoys the game and may drop out of such interactions entirely.

So when children play, they learn valuable social skills, such as the necessity of reciprocity and giving way on occasion.

Children will learn these skills because, if they do not, their playmates may begin to reject them.


Parents should understand the importance of maintaining an optimal balance of positive affects in their children, especially when they are very young.

Subcortical emotional systems can become sensitized by experience.

Neuroscientists are beginning to learn how emotional brain systems are molded, often permanently, through life experiences, just like the muscles and bones that carry our bodies dynamically into the world develop and strengthen over time.

These changes can extend to the level at which genes become activated, sometimes leading to life long patterns of affective strengths and weakness.

Understanding these epigenetic (environmentally induced) long-term changes in gene expressions and hence often lifelong strengths and weaknesses of the BrainMind will be a most exciting forthcoming chapter in emotional research.


Therefore, children are blessed if they have received a great deal of nurturing CARE, leading to the formation of secure social bonds, with positive attachment facilitated by low activity of the PANIC/GRIEF system.

If the child has had the opportunity to engage in abundant joyful play, and if the child's curiosity has been stimulated, then the neural circuits that support these capacities will be more robust through out life.

If, on the other hand, the child has been subjected to untoward frustrations that engender her RAGE system, or if the child has endured high levels of FEAR or PANIC/GRIEF, then her capacity for these negative feelings will be enlarged.

However, this does not mean that parents need to protect their children from negative emotions.

All children must learn to cope with them because they are a natural part of living.

It is reasonable to believe that all the negative emotions in small manageable doses, facilitate long-term psychological resilience that may help ward off longer-lasting future disappointments that lead to depression.



Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Preface and Acknowledgements, p xviii

mildadhd
10-04-14, 06:09 PM
To be fair this idea is that there's - and the goal is to overcome - ie pleasure/pain is better described as pain/pleasure

-- that what all animals hate is pain ?

Not pain (overcoming suffering) is the goal.

Balance between negative emotional feelings and positive emotional feelings.


(Not sure what happened? I was not disagreeing with the importance of secondary and tertiary processes.)

I am not sure why understanding the common unconditioned affective primary states of control are not also included in discussions about the function of the whole BrainMind/MindBrain. (Two-way or "circular" causation (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1636861&postcount=1))

Yes all mammals including humans have very similar, affective states of control.

If all mammals including humans have very similar primary affective states of control.

Then all humans would have very very similar affective states of control in common with all other humans.

?

Kunga Dorji
10-04-14, 11:29 PM
I'm going solo. :)

In my opinion, the importance of mindfullness (tertiary processes level of control) and learning (secondary processes level of control) about "ADHD and Trauma - the freeze response", will never be wholly understood, without including the preverbal biology of the unconditioned emotional response systems (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1680103&postcount=2) (primary states of control) into the discussion.

Example

-- and going solo in a very constructive way.
Your observation of mindfulness as involving a tertiary level of control is highly relevant. Technically we call that tertiary level of control "metacognition".
Ultimately that metacognition is multilayered-and was originally formally described thus:


mindfulness of the body;[/URL] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana#cite_note-2)
mindfulness of feelings or sensations [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana#cite_note-4"]
mindfulness of mind or consciousness and
mindfulness of mental phenomena or mental objects

Your observation of the need to understand basic biological systems is also very important:

Much of our dysfunction comes about from ignoring or resisting the vital messages that our animal body is sending us.
These messages tell us information we need to know to live and thrive.

For instance:-

I have been aware for some time that when my neck is out of alignment- my vision in my right eye seems blurry.

I have been watching this dynamic for ages- and as I meditate more, my perceptions become clearer.
Yesterday afternoon I finally saw what I needed to see_
In fact the vision in the right eye was distorted- so that everything seen from the right eye looked like it had been pushed sideways at the top.
It actually looked like a cubist painting-- quite bizarre.
As I walked I softened my posture and the individual subluxations in the right side of my neck loosened up and dropped into correct position- and that trapezoidal visual distortion disappeared.

In other words- what I was seeing- the image generated in my brain was a higher order cross referencing of the visual input cross referenced with the proprioceptive information from the right side of the body.

You can use this skill to work with the stress response too- simply acknowledge that your body is preparing you for something that your subconscious sees as a threat
- be thankful that your body is doing what it needs to self maintain
- stop fighting the response and work with it until your body is brought back to a rest state.

Importantly-this does not need high level neurological awareness to achieve this- but it does need a basic understanding of the way one's body responds to stress. It also needs an awareness that due to prior traumatic experience our mind-body may have overgeneralised a lesson learned in a particular situation and inappropriately defined a set of physical input senations as always warning of a threat of the kind that first traumatised us.

Kunga Dorji
10-04-14, 11:54 PM
To be fair this idea is that there's - and the goal is to overcome - ie pleasure/pain is better described as pain/pleasure

-- that what all animals hate is pain ?

Not pain (overcoming suffering) is the goal.
Pain and suffering are 2 quite different things.

Pain is very much more a first order phenomenon- and it is very directly related to maintenance of optimal biological function.

IE - if when sitting at the computer you get back pain-- your body is informing you that you are injuring it.
Now- identifying the exact way in which you are injuring your body and how to stop doing it can be very difficult- but the basic idea is that pushing on, ignoring the pain and insisting on finishing the task without due concern for your body is a maladaptive and potentially very harmful thing to do.
Sure- the task may need finishing because of some other important goal (like keeping the job which supports your livelihood)- but a time comes when we have to pull back a little and take measures to reduce the pain (like getting up and stretching gently) before it gets out of hand and we end up so knotted up we need to take a painkiller.

Suffering is more a matter of needlessly worrying about pain or loss- ie useless ruminating that only excites a sympathetic overdrive (and also actually drops ones pain sensitivity threshold).

One of the problems with your overall direction SB is that you seem to be arguing that we can eliminate pain and suffering altogether if we just create the perfect set of external circumstances- if we can just get society to behave itself. The bottom line- we can't -- it is impossible.

What we can do is work with ourselves, with our body and mind,until we become calm and equanimous, and learn not to overreact to external circumstances or to to ignore pain signals that need to be recognised and honoured.

mildadhd
10-05-14, 04:49 PM
-- and going solo in a very constructive way.
Your observation of mindfulness as involving a tertiary level of control is highly relevant. Technically we call that tertiary level of control "metacognition".
Ultimately that metacognition is multilayered-and was originally formally described thus:


mindfulness of the body;[/URL] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana#cite_note-2)
mindfulness of feelings or sensations [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana#cite_note-4"]
mindfulness of mind or consciousness and
mindfulness of mental phenomena or mental objects

Your observation of the need to understand basic biological systems is also very important:

Much of our dysfunction comes about from ignoring or resisting the vital messages that our animal body is sending us.
These messages tell us information we need to know to live and thrive.

For instance:-

I have been aware for some time that when my neck is out of alignment- my vision in my right eye seems blurry.

I have been watching this dynamic for ages- and as I meditate more, my perceptions become clearer.
Yesterday afternoon I finally saw what I needed to see_
In fact the vision in the right eye was distorted- so that everything seen from the right eye looked like it had been pushed sideways at the top.
It actually looked like a cubist painting-- quite bizarre.
As I walked I softened my posture and the individual subluxations in the right side of my neck loosened up and dropped into correct position- and that trapezoidal visual distortion disappeared.

In other words- what I was seeing- the image generated in my brain was a higher order cross referencing of the visual input cross referenced with the proprioceptive information from the right side of the body.

You can use this skill to work with the stress response too- simply acknowledge that your body is preparing you for something that your subconscious sees as a threat
- be thankful that your body is doing what it needs to self maintain
- stop fighting the response and work with it until your body is brought back to a rest state.

Importantly-this does not need high level neurological awareness to achieve this- but it does need a basic understanding of the way one's body responds to stress. It also needs an awareness that due to prior traumatic experience our mind-body may have overgeneralised a lesson learned in a particular situation and inappropriately defined a set of physical input senations as always warning of a threat of the kind that first traumatised us.


Thanks Kunga Dorji,

Lots tertiary and secondary processes for me to learn more about, on top of the primary states of control.

I sure hope that my friends understand I am not disagreeing with those processes and really appreciate and learn from comparing perspectives.

I have an interest in knowing the biology that make these processes and states of control all work together.

I like to focus on primary level of control, because some of my friends already know and cover the secondary and tertiary levels very well.

(And I am always looking to you, SB_UK and other friends with a much better understanding for guidance)




P

mildadhd
10-05-14, 08:05 PM
I feel enormously oppositional to learning cognitive scientific terminology about secondary and tertiary processing levels of control.

I think partly because no other members are interested learning affective scientific terminology about primary states of control?

(Especially unconditioned emotional response systems, etc)

I would really like to get over this and learn to discuss terminology focusing on all three levels of control, more.(And how they work with the body, and vice versa)









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mildadhd
10-05-14, 08:32 PM
Oppositional freeze response?



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mildadhd
10-05-14, 08:44 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kpHK4YIwY4

mildadhd
10-05-14, 09:29 PM
Correction: is there a theory of premetacognition?

Mesaaffective--Metacognition

Reciprocal?

Feel/Know










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mildadhd
10-05-14, 10:37 PM
Mesaaffection (feeling about feeling) / (feeling about knowing) ?

Metacognition (knowing about knowing) / (knowing about feeling) ?


Mesaaffection("BrainMind") / ("MindBrain")Metacognition ?





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mildadhd
10-05-14, 10:44 PM
(Bottom up) Mesaaffection--Mesacognition / Mesacognition--Metacognition / Metacognition--Metaaffection

(Top down) Metaaffection--Metacognition / Metacognition--Mesacognition / Mesacognition--Mesaaffection


Monistic





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Kunga Dorji
10-08-14, 09:11 AM
I do not understand how it ties in to adhd or shame and trauma.

You surprise me.

Kunga Dorji
10-08-14, 09:25 AM
To be fair this idea is that there's - and the goal is to overcome - ie pleasure/pain is better described as pain/pleasure

-- that what all animals hate is pain ?

Not pain (overcoming suffering) is the goal.


Where is my friend SB?
Why is his account suspended?
He represents pure "quality".

Oh dear - I am sounding more and more like "Phaedrus"!
('Zen and the art of neurodiversity maintenance"!)

Now I am sure this is going to be a horribly unpopular opinion- especially with the owners and moderators of this site:-- SB continually derails my threads and everyone else's--it can be very annoying ---- but---- his derailments do have a core of internal consistency- one that should be obvious to anyone who can hold the thread of any argument togehter for long enough. Lets face it--"hyperfocus is our special skill"- so we all should be able to handle this sort of monomania- because we all do it.

My personal opinion is that the sort of censorship that sees to be ebieng exerted in the suspension of SBs account is not compatible with the internal operations of any intellectually respectable or emotionally courageous community.

This is very disturbing-- even if SB can be a complete pain at times.

I make this comment with "bated breath"- because it is a direct challenge to the site owners-- and I am not sure that they can rest easily with this sort of uncontrolled debate about editorial policy.

So, I fear that in standing in favour of SB's right to say things even if I disagree with them, that I might find myself black banned with a suspended account too. However-- only a coward would do that.

mildadhd
10-08-14, 12:43 PM
I find I don't always have the experience (maturity) to understand all the topics that SB_UK discusses, (and I find it hard to just believe, without the time to understand and really be aware of the specifics myself)

I barely have any formal science education but after a few years of discussing in the science section with the diverse perspectives has helped me tremendously.

I always love and learn so much from SB_UK physiological breakdowns/comparisons/considerations etc.

More than a few times I have been thinking about something and have a "oooooo that is what SB_UK meant" moment.


I consider SB_UK one of my best friends/teachers.

I was hoping a voluntary rest.



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