View Full Version : Where does the FEAR response system originate in the brain?


mildadhd
10-10-14, 08:01 PM
Where does the unconditioned FEAR response system originate in the brain?






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BellaVita
10-10-14, 08:55 PM
Amygdala?

Or is that just fight or flight...

mildadhd
10-10-14, 10:48 PM
Fear is agonizing in all its forms.

It is horrible to be stricken by sudden terror.

It is also terrible to be continually consumed by persistent feelings of anxiety that gnaw away at you, destroying your sense of security in the world.

Such feelings are generated by a coherently operating primal brain system, running from the periaqueductal gray (PAG) to the amygdala and back again.

This system produces terror when it is precipitously aroused, and it promotes chronic anxiety in response to milder, more sustained arousal.

When fear stimuli are far away, the higher cognitive parts of the brain, such as the medial frontal cortex and amygdala, are also aroused; you may hide and be still.

But when a fearful predator is at your heels, the the lower regions of the FEAR circuitry, especially down in the midbrain PAG, take over (Mobbs et al., 2007).

Those unconditional fear circuits absolutely compel you to take flight.

Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter: Ancestral Roots of FEAR, p. 178.



Which area of the unconditioned FEAR system circuitry is stimulated (exercised), from the PAG to the Amygdala (primary state of control), seems to depend partly on the type of distance/threat of the fear stimuli.(experience)


(acute threat)(flight)PAG<-------------------------------->Amygdala (freeze) (less acute threat) (primary level of control)

Amygdala<------------------------------>Medial Frontal Cortex (be still and hide) (milder chronic threat) (secondary and tertiary levels of control)

Anything not quoted is my interpretation.

Discussion thoughts appreciated.



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mildadhd
10-10-14, 11:27 PM
The unconditioned SEEKING response system circuitry, is also involved with fight, freeze or flight response systems.

Flight and Freeze are part of the unconditioned FEAR response system circuitry.

Fight is part of the unconditioned RAGE response system circuitry.













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mildadhd
10-10-14, 11:49 PM
We are born with 7 separate genetic (psychological) unconditioned emotional response systems, just like we are born with separate genetic unconditioned sensory response systems to hear and see, etc.







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mildadhd
10-11-14, 12:36 AM
We don't play when we are scared.

The negative feeling FEAR response system gets exercise, when when we are scared.

The positive feeling PLAY response system doesn't get exercise, when when we are scared.

The FEAR system overrides the PLAY system.

And the PLAY system may develop slightly less overtime. (Especially Before 4)


Especially a child born with slightly more hyperreactive (hypersensitive) emotional, homeostatic, and sensory unconditioned instinctual feelings.









p

mildadhd
10-11-14, 12:52 AM
We don't play when we are sad, either.

The negative feeling PANIC/GRIEF response system gets exercise, when when we are sad.

The positive feeling PLAY response system doesn't get exercise, when when we are sad.

The PANIC/GRIEF system overrides the PLAY system.

And the PLAY system may develop slightly less overtime. (Especially Before 4)


Especially a child born with slightly more hyperreactive (hypersensitive) emotional, homeostatic, and sensory unconditioned instinctual feelings.




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mildadhd
10-11-14, 12:54 AM
We don't play when we are mad, neither.

The negative feeling RAGE response system gets exercise, when when we are mad.

The positive feeling PLAY response system doesn't get exercise, when when we are mad.

The RAGE system overrides the PLAY system.

And the PLAY system may develop slightly less overtime. (Especially Before 4)


Especially a child born with slightly more hyperreactive (hypersensitive) emotional, homeostatic, and sensory unconditioned instinctual feelings.




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SB_UK
10-11-14, 08:12 AM
Agree with everything I've understood above - but think that many of these points are confused by trying to identify which part of the brain is responsible.
Maybe easier to identify what causes fear, what causes rage ?

fear - when survival compromised eg man with gun to head
rage - when we do something which compromises survival eg school for men who like to place guns at people's heads and fire eg law school.

SB_UK
10-11-14, 08:46 AM
Especially a child born with slightly more hyperreactive (hypersensitive) emotional, homeostatic, and sensory unconditioned instinctual feelings.
P

Yes - if we're sensitive to whatever is meant to cause rage/fear then we'll be prone to dysautonomia (new term copied from Kunga Dorji) in the presence of factors which trigger rage/fear.

The only thing that compromises human survival is a mind (of people) which does not have morality as prime directive.

So rage/fear each time we see people behaving in a mindless way.

SB_UK
10-11-14, 08:55 AM
What is play ?
Behaviours which associate with natural (sustainable) reward ie we don't need to take any chemical factor to apply ourselves because we obtain motivation simply by virtue of wanting to engage.

Are there any forms of motivational behaviours which aren't sustainable ?
People are motivated to compete and win
vs
People are motivated to collaborate and win collectively

Is it so bad if somebody becomes better for reasons of wanting to beat somebody else as opposed to simply wanting to be better ?

Maybe growing up (to wisdom) is simply about losing the desire to compete and replacing it with the desire to be as good as one can be - with generation of mind which clearly defines 'winning' against another person as being a complete waste of time.

-*-

If winning against other people is your goal - then nobody will be the best at any given thing for more than a brief moment ... ... what's the point of aspiring to be the best in activities which don't matter ? Being the best in the world at throwing a disc ? or at jumping ? or at the triple jump ?

Are we in some crazy world in which people actually think that being the best in the world at jumping up and down (the high jump) is of any use to the species as a whole ?

What do people need ?
Basic survival essentials (see medical epidemiology) as a birthright - not skill at jumping over a series of regularly spaced hurdles in a straight line.

What on earth is that all about ? Humans emulating horse races ?

And what on earth is the deal with horse racing ? So who cares if you've a fast horse ?
Oh but it supports the betting industry ?

And what on earth is the betting industry all about ? What a complete waste of time.

Ahh!! But you can win lots of money ... ...

Altogether now - but the love/desire of money is the root of all evil - we don't want money we want to dispense with money so people are freed to live their live hunting quality and not quantity of cash.

SB_UK
10-11-14, 09:09 AM
^^^^ rage and fear (yes - an encoded reaction somewhere in the brain) - but it's easier to switch off the crazy world outside and thereby switch off the rage/fear response than somehow work out where it is in the brain and cut out all the nerve cells relaying on rage/fear reactions

- though without the rage/fear reaction to immorality wouldn't we simply become psychopaths ?

Unmanagable
10-11-14, 01:32 PM
I'll likely go around my a** to get to my elbow in trying to express my thoughts here, so please be patient and kind as I roll with it.

One of the most mind blowing things I've learned in my adventures in pursuing overall wellness, and trying to figure my own brain and body out, is that we function in basically two modes, fight or flight (fear driven) and/or rest and digest (awareness minus impulsive reaction/mindful response). Gives a whole new meaning, in my mind, to the saying I often hear that kids have two speeds, wide open and off.

Prolonged and repetitive internal worry about things creates a constant fight or flight state, and all of our bodily functions are most definitely affected during the time we are stuck in that cycle. But we are so used to our bodies just taking care of stuff we fail to notice little details and often shun our own instincts in favor of the opinion of another, or if there's no immediate physical consequence, we assume there's no problem.

I've been working hard at undoing a lifetime of living in fight or flight mode. Deep breathing to invite more oxygen into my system, stillness, recognizing and allowing emotions then letting them go, mindful eating of nurturing and living whole foods, exercising on purpose for fun, sunshine and nature, and finally learning the critical importance of learning to love myself has finally given me a chance to learn how the rest and digest mode feels. What a much more pleasant experience, although I still struggle big time at times, it feels like a healthier struggle, if that makes any sense.

The way it was explained to me makes me envision the amygdala as sort of a bird on the look out....constantly in flight and scanning it's environment, on guard for any possible threat, ready to pounce, constant re-evaluation of everything, and can easily get stuck in one spot or break a wing, making it damn near impossible to get back out of a big rut.

Combine that constant brain activity with an overwhelming and unhealthy intake of mostly synthetically processed artificial foods and beverages, artificial lighting, cyclic negative thinking, no fresh air, little to no purposeful movement or play, very limited/no meaningful outlets to feel necessary relaxation, side effects of multiple meds to attempt to address the issues, repeatedly having our self-worth squashed, continual depleted nutrients, etc., etc. and yikes!

Regardless of what all we think we know based on the words, stats, and studies of others, all of that chaos is going on behind the scenes inside of our bodies constantly, and it kicks the whole fight or flight into turbo repeatedly, and our innards continue to be run ragged while we keep trying to figure out what the heck could be wrong. And the worry continues............

SB_UK
10-11-14, 01:50 PM
I'll likely go around my a** to get to my elbow in trying to express my thoughts here, so please be patient and kind as I roll with it.

One of the most mind blowing things I've learned in my adventures in pursuing overall wellness, and trying to figure my own brain and body out, is that we function in basically two modes, fight or flight (fear driven) and/or rest and digest (awareness minus impulsive reaction/mindful response). Gives a whole new meaning, in my mind, to the saying I often hear that kids have two speeds, wide open and off.

Prolonged and repetitive internal worry about things creates a constant fight or flight state, and all of our bodily functions are most definitely affected during the time we are stuck in that cycle. But we are so used to our bodies just taking care of stuff we fail to notice little details and often shun our own instincts in favor of the opinion of another, or if there's no immediate physical consequence, we assume there's no problem.

I've been working hard at undoing a lifetime of living in fight or flight mode. Deep breathing to invite more oxygen into my system, stillness, recognizing and allowing emotions then letting them go, mindful eating of nurturing and living whole foods, exercising on purpose for fun, sunshine and nature, and finally learning the critical importance of learning to love myself has finally given me a chance to learn how the rest and digest mode feels. What a much more pleasant experience, although I still struggle big time at times, it feels like a healthier struggle, if that makes any sense.

The way it was explained to me makes me envision the amygdala as sort of a bird on the look out....constantly in flight and scanning it's environment, on guard for any possible threat, ready to pounce, constant re-evaluation of everything, and can easily get stuck in one spot or break a wing, making it damn near impossible to get back out of a big rut.

Combine that constant brain activity with an overwhelming and unhealthy intake of mostly synthetically processed artificial foods and beverages, artificial lighting, cyclic negative thinking, no fresh air, little to no purposeful movement or play, very limited/no meaningful outlets to feel necessary relaxation, side effects of multiple meds to attempt to address the issues, repeatedly having our self-worth squashed, continual depleted nutrients, etc., etc. and yikes!

Regardless of what all we think we know based on the words, stats, and studies of others, all of that chaos is going on behind the scenes inside of our bodies constantly, and it kicks the whole fight or flight into turbo repeatedly, and our innards continue to be run ragged while we keep trying to figure out what the heck could be wrong. And the worry continues............


There's the famous phrase - 'you have nothing to fear but fear itself' - but if you're about to be thrown out of your house for not keeping up with the mortgage - well - it's obvious that we actually have something to fear.

We have nothing to fear but ourselves is better or more simply - we have nothing to fear but the immoral systems some (the beneficiaries) insist on the rest (the 99.99% losers) engaging in.

mildadhd
10-12-14, 12:46 AM
What is play? (-SB_UK)


7. PLAY networks give us perhaps the most evolutionarily recent primary-process emotional urge: the urge to engage creatively and joyously in the mental world of others, to establish friendships and to learn through eager friendly competition (with repeated, adequately balanced give-and-take--winning and losing, in a manner of speaking).

This process, when done with full acceptance, is often accompanied by euphoric positive affect, whereby one feels a sense of secure belonging within the social order.

It is sad that this natural rambunctious behavior of young children is too often viewed as a problem by parents and other adults, leading to perhaps, in situations where childhood impulsivity is most disturbing, to diagnoses such as ADHD at one phase of life and mania at another.

But PLAY is also a blessing for the development of social skills.

Like all the basic emotions, PLAY is an especially rich experience-expectant process that energizes a great deal of learning, ultimately serving as the driving force, along with the social emotions of GRIEF and CARE and LUST, of much of the world's artistic production.

At its best, PLAY is permeated by one of the greatest joys of life: the capacity to laugh, one of nature's finest emotional gifts.

And this blessing is not unique to humans.

Even rats exhibit a happy laughter-type sound when they play with each other or are tickled by the playful hands of human beings, yielding measurable brain benefits (Burgdorf et al., 2010; Wohr et al., 2009; Yamamuro et al., 2010).

Primary-process social joy can be molded, with a keen sense of fun and humor, into distinct therapeutic interventions that can probably counteract chronic negative affects such as repressed RAGE, and with remarkable clinical skill, perhaps even quell the demoralizing effects of profound FEAR and GRIEF.

Perhaps PLAYful joy is much underutilized in psychotherapies, especially among the young.

Indeed, there are solid reasons to believe that it can be used as a daily psychic tonic for young children to help reduce the ever-growing diagnosis/incidence of ADHD in our culture.

Our increasing understanding of this emotional system should figure more heavily in the discussion of diverse emotional problems, including depression, since facilitation of PLAY urges should be a key target for future therapeutic interventions.



Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter: Brain Emotional Systems and Affective Qualities of Mental Life, P 438.


i!i i!i i!i

mildadhd
10-12-14, 01:35 AM
Unmanagable, BellaVita and SB_UK

Thanks for your very important "(i) subjective" insights.

The reason I prefer the affective neuroscience approach is because affective neuroscience triangulates/links, human minds "(i) subjective mental states", animal brains "(ii) brain functions" and "(iii) natural (instinctual) emotional behaviors that all young mammals must exhibit early in life in order to survive."

(anything not quoted is my interpretation)

All subjects in this thread (and much more), are discussed in much more in depth in the book, "The Archaeology of Mind", by Jaak Panksepp and Lucy Biven.




P


Affective neuroscience has made a fresh start by proceeding from the bottom up, without denigrating our unique human abilities, and it is offering both a new vision of mental origins and new data to back up such assertions.

Affective neuroscience seek to link the affective mind to animal brains--to triangulate among (i) subjective mental states (most easily studied in humans), (ii) brain functions (more easily studied in animals), and (iii) the natural (instinctual) emotional behaviors that all young mammals must exhibit early in life in order to survive.

This triangulation allows us to envision the ancient ground plan for human mental life and the deep neural sources of our values--our primal emotional feelings.


Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter: Ancestral Passions, P 6.



i!i i!i i!i

SB_UK
10-12-14, 07:39 AM
But do we need the archaeology of brain, mind or genome ie the past in understanding how to allow an unprecedented feature (the mind) to form ?

The mind just wants to be a specification of morality.
If it isn't that - then it's true that more ancient systems break.

But isn't it more important to form the mind than the mend aspects of our evolutionary apparatus which break when the broken mind controls the individual/society ?

I'm not entirely sure that we're going to be able to find a pill which makes people happy shanty dwellers or happy eating the same weed every day of the week or happy wearing a t-shirt in the cold.

SB_UK
10-12-14, 07:49 AM
Under a model of distress the entire neuroendocrine system collapses to the diseases of dysautonomia and HPA resistance (insensitvity syndrome).

But the distress (negative emotions) is only caused by an individual's survival prospects being compromised (see Panksepp video in Peripheral's - 'are you an animal ?' thread')
- all of these fears are eliminated in a society in which sustainable [optimal]* food/ sustainable [optimal]* shelter are offered to all as a birthright.

[optimal] is easy to define.

-*-

I think the reason why I am not reporting any enthusiasm to investigate mol biol, genetics, psych, neuroscience
- is that, and strictly from the perspective of human health
- all we need is a fair society in which nobody compromises the life of any other person through having more than they need of a survival essential factor when others have not enough.

-*-

It's not that any of this (mol biol -> neuroscience) is 'wrong' - it's just unnecessary from the strict perspective of medicine.

What's the point of generating TRULY MASSIVE amounts of data which don't lead anywhere and which obscures the true path to human health ?

We're even at the point now where we've so much data we can't store it, and so much data that we can't find it when we need it - even worse still - a technological base which is moving so fast that previous experiments are invalidated.

All that we're going to find is that humans will be healthy in a distress free environment.

mildadhd
10-12-14, 10:58 AM
All that we're going to find is that humans will be healthy in a distress free environment.

What is distress free?

Humans will be most healthy in a emotionally balanced environment. (Negative and positive emotional feelings)

Negative emotional feelings can be eustressful (promote balance), if the negative emotional feelings promote survival.

Positive emotional feelings can be distressful (promote imbalance), if the positive emotional feelings demote survival.


P

mildadhd
10-12-14, 11:09 AM
It's not that any of this (mol biol -> neuroscience) is 'wrong' - it's just unnecessary from the strict perspective of medicine.

What's the point of generating TRULY MASSIVE amounts of data which don't lead anywhere and which obscures the true path to human health ?

We're even at the point now where we've so much data we can't store it, and so much data that we can't find it when we need it - even worse still - a technological base which is moving so fast that previous experiments are invalidated.
.

The mind is much more subjectively complex than the 7 basic primary emotions.

It's easy to understand the 7 basic emotions compared to the enormous complexity of individual human experiences.





P

mildadhd
10-12-14, 11:29 AM
But do we need the archaeology of brain, mind or genome ie the past in understanding how to allow an unprecedented feature (the mind) to form ?

The mind just wants to be a specification of morality.
If it isn't that - then it's true that more ancient systems break.

But isn't it more important to form the mind than the mend aspects of our evolutionary apparatus which break when the broken mind controls the individual/society ?

I'm not entirely sure that we're going to be able to find a pill which makes people happy shanty dwellers or happy eating the same weed every day of the week or happy wearing a t-shirt in the cold.

We need both to survive.

But MindBrain is built upon the BrainMind

No BrainMind, no MindBrain

The brain is the ancestoral mind that does not need to learned/taught.

The moral mind needs to be learned from one generation to the next (purpose of religion, school, etc...)

Creates subjective petty differences, and even sometimes wars, not only among distant rivals, but among close individual families, etc.

The emotional brain does not, everyone is naturally the same.

Homeostasis is balance not perfection.






P

mildadhd
10-12-14, 11:59 AM
Under a model of distress the entire neuroendocrine system collapses to the diseases of dysautonomia and HPA resistance (insensitvity syndrome).

But the distress (negative emotions) is only caused by an individual's survival prospects being compromised (see Panksepp video in Peripheral's - 'are you an animal ?' thread')
- all of these fears are eliminated in a society in which sustainable [optimal]* food/ sustainable [optimal]* shelter are offered to all as a birthright.

[optimal] is easy to define.

-*-


I woke up in the middle of the night, and read a little about dysautonomia.

Thanks to you and Kunga Dorji for introducing me to the terms.

I am not claiming to fully understand but I found it interesting that there was a primary dysautonomia and a secondary dysautonomia.

I don't think we will ever live in a distress free world, but I think that life provides a natural amount of distress, that makes attempting to live in a distress free world a healthy goal to attain.

I agree optimal is easy to define.






P

mildadhd
10-12-14, 12:16 PM
I am a step dad, who is not in a position to use traditional ways of discipline.

I used to worry that my step son was not getting the right moral guidance, that I was "taught".

But I don't worry so much anymore, I have learned that with patience, morality follows emotional homeostasis naturally.

My job is to provide a balanced emotional environment.

PLAY is the secret weapon.



p

mildadhd
10-12-14, 12:43 PM
I'm not entirely sure that we're going to be able to find a pill which makes people happy shanty dwellers or happy eating the same weed every day of the week or happy wearing a t-shirt in the cold.


I don't think inventing medication is the primary goal of affective neuroscience.

I think the primary goal of affective neuroscience is to help understand the benefits of balanced emotional environment, so that medication is not required.

But if an individual has already experienced to much distress over a long period of time, medication may sometimes be a helpful treatment alternative for some people.


P

SB_UK
10-12-14, 01:20 PM
What is distress free?

Humans will be most healthy in a emotionally balanced environment. (Negative and positive emotional feelings)

Negative emotional feelings can be eustressful (promote balance), if the negative emotional feelings promote survival.

Positive emotional feelings can be distressful (promote imbalance), if the positive emotional feelings demote survival.


P

Freedom to choose to withdraw from anything (a sport, a school, a workplace) without compromising survival (ie to actually have the freedom to choose one's path in life).

mildadhd
10-12-14, 01:21 PM
My preference for the BrainMind theory does not mean I disagree with the equally important MindBrain theory.

I think the much more popular ADHD MindBrain theory, does offer very important insight into the slight impairment of regulation.

But the less popular BrainMind theory offers insight, that may lessen or even prevent a more hypersensitive child from becoming slightly impaired in the first place.



P

SB_UK
10-12-14, 01:25 PM
The mind is much more subjectively complex than the 7 basic primary emotions.

It's easy to understand the 7 basic emotions compared to the enormous complexity of individual human experiences.

P

I think that the mind aspires to be a simple set of rules which are consistent with happy human survival.

So - renewable energy is potentially good - fossil fuels/nuclear power bad.
Exercise facilities for all is good - sport for an elite (professional) is bad.

But ultimately it's just a code which defines the best possible world for this generation of the species and (most importantly) all subsequent generations.

So - evolution looks to the future - all that I'm defining the mind as - as a set of commands which lead to an ever better world.

So - there're zillions of things that are and zillions of things which aren't compatible with building a better world - and all we're meant to be is to be able to separate them out and 'to choose good'.

mildadhd
10-12-14, 01:27 PM
Freedom to choose to withdraw from anything (a sport, a school, a workplace) without compromising survival (ie to actually have the freedom to choose one's path in life).

I agree 1000%


P

SB_UK
10-12-14, 01:29 PM
We need both to survive.

But MindBrain is built upon the BrainMind

No BrainMind, no MindBrain

The brain is the ancestoral mind that does not need to learned/taught.

The moral mind needs to be learned from one generation to the next (purpose of religion, school, etc...)

Creates subjective petty differences, and even sometimes wars, not only among distant rivals, but among close individual families, etc.

The emotional brain does not, everyone is naturally the same.

Homeostasis is balance not perfection.

P

I think that the way I understand evolution to work is through abstraction layers - whereby a new property only arises when previous properties are 'complete'.

The point being that there's only mindbrain since brainmind is by definition sealed as of the evolutionary emergence of something new (mind).

Thing is - is that evolution needs to build things on firm foundations - there's no way we can get a mind to work unless the brain is operational ie we should be looking to what the mind wants (to be moral - and to stipulate a moral society) rather than how the brain breaks when the mind is not allowed to express itself as it is evolutionarily programmed to aspire to.

mildadhd
10-12-14, 01:34 PM
I think that the mind aspires to be a simple set of rules which are consistent with happy human survival.

So - renewable energy is potentially good - fossil fuels/nuclear power bad.
Exercise facilities for all is good - sport for an elite (professional) is bad.

But ultimately it's just a code which defines the best possible world for this generation of the species and (most importantly) all subsequent generations.

So - evolution looks to the future - all that I'm defining the mind as - as a set of commands which lead to an ever better world.

So - there're zillions of things that are and zillions of things which aren't compatible with building a better world - and all we're meant to be is to be able to separate them out and 'to choose good'.


All extremely important (understatement).

I agree with everything 1000%

(Except if someone wanted to be an elite professional athlete, I would support them)


P

SB_UK
10-12-14, 01:36 PM
My preference for the BrainMind theory does not mean I disagree with the equally important MindBrain theory.

I think the much more popular ADHD MindBrain theory, does offer very important insight into the slight impairment of regulation.

But the less popular BrainMind theory offers insight, that may lessen or even prevent a more hypersensitive child from becoming slightly impaired in the first place.

P

From a personal perspective - I can define a society (one without compulsion) in which I can guarantee I would have no disorder element to ADHD and so ... ... I'm left wandering whether since we can prevent disease by redefinition of society - what the benefits are to investigate the differences in brains between ADDers and nonADDers.

From a personal perspective - life has become needlessly complicated because everybody's an expert in something or other and what experts do is over-complicate to keep themselves in a job.

Not because over-complication is necessary.

SB_UK
10-12-14, 01:39 PM
I don't think inventing medication is the primary goal of affective neuroscience.

I think the primary goal of affective neuroscience is to help understand the benefits of balanced emotional environment, so that medication is not required.

But if an individual has already experienced to much distress over a long period of time, medication may sometimes be a helpful treatment alternative for some people.


P

To be fair your video on Panksepp was quite heavy on drug discovery - in the 'are you an animal ?' thread.

SB_UK
10-12-14, 01:42 PM
All extremely important (understatement).

I agree with everything 1000%

(Except if someone wanted to be an elite professional athlete, I would support them)


P

If being the best that one can be and would like to be - makes one the best in the world at something - then that's all well and good
- I'm just putting myself in that position now - and thinking
- "yeah ! so I've completed a 100m race in 9.5 seconds but I won't be happy until I've my time down to 9s ... to 1s ... ... and so it continues"

- that is that the desire to be the best, even to be better will never lead to an individual ever becoming the best - there's always better.

SB_UK
10-12-14, 01:46 PM
If I had to put my finger on what I think ADDers are compromised in - it'd be 'memory' - or at least I can't remember anything.
However - we're about to interface with all human information ie google glasses will lead to us having always on access to ALL available information ALWAYS
- that's SO MUCH more than the human mind can handle ie place into storage.


I'm asking the question whether our worst attribute (certainly mine) is about to be technologically assisted.

-*-

Are ADDers storing pointers to information rather than the information itself ? in our minds.

Has the wealth of information that human beings are now required to juggle become so great that the memory system of the next generation/species has had to switch in structure ?

SB_UK
10-12-14, 02:05 PM
My preference for the BrainMind theory does not mean I disagree with the equally important MindBrain theory.

I think the much more popular ADHD MindBrain theory, does offer very important insight into the slight impairment of regulation.

But the less popular BrainMind theory offers insight, that may lessen or even prevent a more hypersensitive child from becoming slightly impaired in the first place.
P

balanced emotional environment

But a balanced emotional environment for parent/child comes out of MindBrain theory rather than BrainMind ie if all parents are in a house with food and somewhere to exerrcise without conddition - then ... ... that's a distress free environment for parent which facilitates a distress free environment for child - an attachment permissive environment for mother-father and parent-child.

mildadhd
10-12-14, 02:12 PM
To be fair your video on Panksepp was quite heavy on drug discovery - in the 'are you an animal ?' thread.

Yes, but I also find that he is very serious about drug use and abuse, let me look for some examples that actually reminded me of you.

I'm burnt out, need to reread, I think I missed some posts, etc

I'll be back later, really appreciate the discussion.

Interesting Lots to discuss.

P

SB_UK
10-12-14, 02:31 PM
Being more sensitive doesn't sound as though it's anything to do with mind.
Though being sensitized as everything to do with mind.

So - if we could identify what our sensitivity actually means ie where it comes from - then that would be useful.

What do I find ?

I'm sensitive to intent underlying words or maybe it's just intent.

Interactions bearing good intention ?

mildadhd
10-13-14, 02:51 AM
Yes - if we're sensitive to whatever is meant to cause rage/fear then we'll be prone to dysautonomia (new term copied from Kunga Dorji) in the presence of factors which trigger rage/fear.


If I understand correctly, emotions are part of the automatic nervous system. (Visceral?)

Is ADHD, emotional, homeostatic, sensory, dysautonomia?

(specifics depend on individual emotional experiences)

"Emotional Allergies"(Dr Mate)

emotion hyperreactive (emotionally hypersensitive)

We are born with emotionally hypersensitive temperament before experience.

Imbalance of distressful emotional experience may result in slight impairment.

The emotionally hypersensitive temperament does not become impaired unless it is imbalancedly distressed.


What is the difference between emotionally hypersensitive temperament, and epigenetic inheritence?

If I consider the newly introduced term "dysautonmia", I wonder....

*Is epigenetic inheritence, primary dysautonomia? (Primary as in before birth and up to 5 previous generations)

*And ADHD, secondary dysautonomia? (Secondary as in experience after birth)

*And Emotional hypersensitive temperament is a good thing, when exposed to a balance of emotional experiences?

(Side note, I am going to leave out discussion about drug use and drug abuse, til after I understand sensitivity better)


Opinions?


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mildadhd
10-13-14, 03:35 AM
Development of basic emotions precedes development of memory and regulation.

During implicit (automatic) period of development before the age of 4*, before explicit period development after the age of 4*.

Chronic distressful experiences involving Negative feeling basic emotions like RAGE system, FEAR system and PANIC/GRIEF system, interfere with explicit memory and regulation after the age of 4*.

Chronic distressful experiences involving negative feeling basic emotions like RAGE system, FEAR system and PANIC/GRIEF system, interfere with the development of implicit memory and regulation functions before the age of 4*

Especially a infant born with a more emotional, homeostatic and sensory hypersensitive temperament.






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SB_UK
10-13-14, 07:26 AM
Hypersensitive ?
Sensory

We know the idea of 'opening the doors to perception' and we know the 'Intense world theory' ie that nerves can be driven to re-associate in a way which drives more information into the brain /mind.
We know that ADDers are easily over-stimulated (sensitive to touch, loudness of sound, taste) ... ...

We know that information (music) can activate the dopamine circuit.

-*-

It just looks as though we're 'informational'-adjusted ie can activate our reward system just through sensory information alone.

IE as we observe the industrial revolution give way to the informaton age, so behind the scenes are we observing human beings transferring from materialism as reward to quality of information as reward paradigm.

Does this idea make sense ?
Yes.

So hypersensitive at the level of sensory information upload - where we know that the CNS can evolve in this way ie via the valproic acid model of autism.

-*-

This would make daydreaming in the sun (information upload to adder) sufficiently (certainly is to me) rewarding to motivate a life of only it.

The rest is too much.

The sweet point (mine personally) of complete distress-less existence being aerobic exercise in the sun in the silence.

SB_UK
10-13-14, 07:40 AM
So core deficit - overstimulation of a sensitive sensory engine ?

overstimulation = adhd disorder

sensitive sensory engine = core basis of adhd cf Markam's Intense world theory.

Pain and eventual nerve death if we constantly stimulate any given nerve.

Just hypersensitive sensory desiring peace and quiet.

No drama.

-*-

Very sensitive evolutionary product since being happy through plain existence courtesy of sensory information alone floating our boats will drive us in a gentle way towards generating a beautiful environment which (in turn) supplies us with what we need.

Certainly informational upload in Summer when the sun is shining - far greater - greater array of colours than just dull grey - pain when information upload drops behing optimal level ?

SB_UK
10-13-14, 07:53 AM
This 'd mean that the happy daydreamer is happy enough in their own world - happy enough until they realise that that world isn't the one which they're allowed to inhabit.

Then what follows is some attempt to get back into that world in this world - which generally involves finding something that can be done in autopilot ie driving, moving, anything 'thought' based which doesn't really require thinking ... ...

So - it's all about a happy state of mind in which the pointless drama of this world brings us out - the stress compunds into chronic stress leading to dysautonomia, emotional dysregulation, addictive behaviours for stress relief.

-*-

Core problem - 'let sleeping dogs lie' ... ... because we become disordered when we're taken out of our world.

SB_UK
10-13-14, 09:44 AM
http://www.spring.org.uk/2014/02/intense-world-austistic-brains-create-42-more-information-at-rest.php
Intense World: Autistic Brains Create 42% More Information at Rest

This theory suggests that autism is not a mental deficit, but a mental overload.

Very similar - sensory overload unless in a particular context.

It's a useful evolutionary property because we're happy with pretty much NO thing ... ... as 'things' take us out of sensory world information relay which is all we need.

SB_UK
10-13-14, 09:54 AM
But how would society move on if its people were happy as is ?

It's simply a combination of understanding that we're not motivated by personal gain, more by quality ... ...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/26/highly-sensitive-people-signs-habits_n_4810794.html

"6. And on that note, they are more upset if they make a "bad" or "wrong" decision.

7. They're extremely detail-oriented. "

We're battling the system we're operating on to make it as perfect as possible - where in this current world people battle one another for personal gain.

The goal is to make the best 'thing' that we are motivated to build - but having a system-centric nature where all people around you are simply trying to get on (improve their career) - makes for a distressing (surprise surprise !!) environment for us.

-*-

Still we're looking at a 'competition' centric people battling against a collaboration-centric people ... ... since there's no way I can do all of any system worth doing - alone.

9. They work well in team environments.

This is ADHD -> http://www.buzzfeed.com/kasiagalazka/26-signs-youre-a-highly-sensitive-person#gxqr1v

SB_UK
10-13-14, 10:42 AM
Where does the FEAR response system originate in the brain? Just as an additional point.

the very definition of fear to my mind - is attempting some task and throwing oneself at some task which the mind knows is impossible.

This type of mind cannot attempt to dissect the molecular genetics of any of the common diseases (the monogenics being trivial to unravel)
- because at its root - we've simply the evolutionary emergence of sensitivity within an insensitive environment.

the trait of high sensitivity is considered a basic, evolutionarily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution) conserved trait with survival advantages in itself. Aron was partly drawn to this conclusion by the early work on normal infant temperament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperament) variations,[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_sensitive_person#cite_note-ThomasChess-11) including low sensory threshold, and a shy-bold continuum described in animal species.

It's completely impossible to develop motivation to attempt some mind requiring activity when one knows that it's impossible.
Now - it's easier for the ADDer/HSP mind to simply transfer a bag from one room to another 24/7 than it is to attempt some impossible task - because the mind can zone out during the pointless physical task
- but can't zone out during the impossible mental task.

IE needs to pay attention.
Can't pay attention.

Shouldn't be able to pay attention.

But it's not as though not being able to pay attention on some task which is not worthy of attention buys you survival in a world where pretty much all tasks performed are not deserving of attention.

SB_UK
10-13-14, 10:59 AM
Also we've a neat tie in to the whole metabolic story of ketosis/fat supporting neural rearrangement rather than carb/protein ... ... ie that we're allowed to see how a distress free environment 'd normalize appetite regulation to ketosis resulting in increased neural sensitivity through forcing neural network rather than neural 'tower' structure formation.

So ... ... sensitivity would be evolutionarily favoured ie increased survival prospects - but it goes well beyond that
- because we're literally jumping from increased likelihood of survival through increased sensitivity to just enjoying the sensitivity (information) ie to having the sensitivity as a feed-in to a reward mechanism.

That's pretty neat; it;s a total paradigm shift - and we can now draw a line under genetic/epigenetic evolution continuing - and just see a fair society - distress-free as conducive to a certain pattern of neural network formation which equates to quality - personal quality in whichever 'avenue' one happens to train one's neural network.

Lots of standard areas for development of this facility - but it looks as though one of the facilities we can develop may be of telepathic transfer of information.

SB_UK
10-13-14, 11:09 AM
Summarising

Blood glucose elevation (pleasure/pain) -> Ketosis preferring (ADDer) (quality centric)

see HDAC inhibitor info on reducing growth / promoting neural rearrangement (valproic acid (=HDACi = the same in effect as ketone body) model of neural rearrangement to complexity)

ADDer = Highly sensitive <- evolutionarily selected and observed in animal kingdom also - so makes sense

Blood glucose elevation -> associated with genome evolution
Ketosis -> associated with neural rearrangement required in generation of internal quality sensing neural machinery
Problem - Highly stressed easily distressed in this world - stress relief = blood glucose elevation - big problems -> diabesity epidemic.

So - general point we're observing the emergence of a sensory quality sensing type in the middle of a materialistic paradigm - resulting in disease disorder to emotional dyregylation, dysautonomia, endocrine system resistance syndromes

- all that's required is a fair society for people to live in - thereby all downstream consequences of our new sensitivity (ie the adverse ones) will be lost - allowing the positive ones - ie to develop personal/species quality to shine forth.

-*-

Society needs to facilitate instead of impede personal human development towards quality; simply possible by introducing global voluntaryism ie you only do when it brings it you personal reward so to do.

mildadhd
10-13-14, 09:46 PM
I'll likely go around my a** to get to my elbow in trying to express my thoughts here, so please be patient and kind as I roll with it.

One of the most mind blowing things I've learned in my adventures in pursuing overall wellness, and trying to figure my own brain and body out, is that we function in basically two modes, fight or flight (fear driven) and/or rest and digest (awareness minus impulsive reaction/mindful response). Gives a whole new meaning, in my mind, to the saying I often hear that kids have two speeds, wide open and off.

Prolonged and repetitive internal worry about things creates a constant fight or flight state, and all of our bodily functions are most definitely affected during the time we are stuck in that cycle. But we are so used to our bodies just taking care of stuff we fail to notice little details and often shun our own instincts in favor of the opinion of another, or if there's no immediate physical consequence, we assume there's no problem.

I've been working hard at undoing a lifetime of living in fight or flight mode. Deep breathing to invite more oxygen into my system, stillness, recognizing and allowing emotions then letting them go, mindful eating of nurturing and living whole foods, exercising on purpose for fun, sunshine and nature, and finally learning the critical importance of learning to love myself has finally given me a chance to learn how the rest and digest mode feels. What a much more pleasant experience, although I still struggle big time at times, it feels like a healthier struggle, if that makes any sense.

The way it was explained to me makes me envision the amygdala as sort of a bird on the look out....constantly in flight and scanning it's environment, on guard for any possible threat, ready to pounce, constant re-evaluation of everything, and can easily get stuck in one spot or break a wing, making it damn near impossible to get back out of a big rut.

Combine that constant brain activity with an overwhelming and unhealthy intake of mostly synthetically processed artificial foods and beverages, artificial lighting, cyclic negative thinking, no fresh air, little to no purposeful movement or play, very limited/no meaningful outlets to feel necessary relaxation, side effects of multiple meds to attempt to address the issues, repeatedly having our self-worth squashed, continual depleted nutrients, etc., etc. and yikes!

Regardless of what all we think we know based on the words, stats, and studies of others, all of that chaos is going on behind the scenes inside of our bodies constantly, and it kicks the whole fight or flight into turbo repeatedly, and our innards continue to be run ragged while we keep trying to figure out what the heck could be wrong. And the worry continues............


Your post keeps reminding me of this video called, "The Divided Brain", by Iain McGilchrist.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI



P

mildadhd
10-13-14, 11:31 PM
Sensory (-SB_UK)

I think I agree that experiences, "epigenetically shape" the BrainMind/MindBrain by way of sensory systems.

But I think that an affective emotional, homeostatic and sensory hypersensitive temperament originates primarily in the midbrain area.

(Focusing on emotional affects and psychological development)

Possible slight impairment due to emotional distress, occurring primarily during the early implicit (automatic) stage of brain development, before the age of 4. (Specifics depend on individual circumstances and temperament).

I think we are focusing on different levels of control.



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SB_UK
10-14-14, 07:02 AM
Your post keeps reminding me of this video called, "The Divided Brain", by Iain McGilchrist.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI)



P

Will never get tired of that form of presentation.

Wonderful.

SB_UK
10-14-14, 07:39 AM
I think I agree that experiences, "epigenetically shape" the BrainMind/MindBrain by way of sensory systems.

But I think that an affective emotional, homeostatic and sensory hypersensitive temperament originates primarily in the midbrain area.

(Focusing on emotional affects and psychological development)

Possible slight impairment due to emotional distress, occurring primarily during the early implicit (automatic) stage of brain development, before the age of 4. (Specifics depend on individual circumstances and temperament).

I think we are focusing on different levels of control.



P


Sensitivity arises in mid-brain.

The limbic system (http://neuroscience.uth.tmc.edu/s4/chapter05.html) includes the hippocampal formation, amygdala, septal nuclei, cingulate cortex, entorhinal cortex, perirhinal cortex, and parahippocampal cortex.

-*-

Many neurons in the anterior cingulate gyrus (ACCg) (http://m.today.duke.edu/2012/12/socialprimate#sthash.A7LIZNQN.dpuf) respond both when monkeys choose a drink for themselves and when they choose to give a drink to another monkey," Platt said. "One might view these as sort of mirror neurons for the reward system." The region is active as an animal merely watches another animal receiving a reward without having one themselves.

-*-

So ... ...

reward at the level of the anterior cingulate cortex as the basis to ADHD ie feeling good when we're behaving in a moral (making other people happy) manner.

<- core basis to ADHD

and the (naturally) mechanism of emergence of an enforcedly social organism.

SB_UK
10-14-14, 07:43 AM
That idea is certainly in keeping with my experience of reward.

it's impossible to feel reward when one selfishly wins something - a certificate, race, skill ... ... there's only reward in helping other people.

So - no reward from doing nothing to help other people -> anterior cingulate cortex -> PAG -> distress -> dysutonomia/messed up endocrine system to resistance syndromes -> broken immune system -> loss of appetite regulation and affinity for stress-busting foods -> the path to an early death is sculpted.

ADHD as explained away through ascendancy of a reward mechanism which is only activated when other people are happy.

That's a kick in the teeth in this world - where other people are happy when they're kicking you in the teeth.

So the ADHD reward system in dumbo world is to lie on the floor and allow all passing people to kick you in the face without them so much as missing a step.

That's nice.

SB_UK
10-14-14, 07:55 AM
So - ADDers 'can't get no satisfaction' in a world which is fundamentally hateful ie you're in competition over everything from house prices to jobs, from grant renewals to races
- and

no satisfaction -> leads to no reward
absence of reward -> stress

stress -> dysautonomia and cortiosl resistance

stress -> reactive stress relief

eg

Keith Richards (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1320761/Rolling-Stone-Keith-Richards-reveals-drugs-sex-Mick-Jaggers-tiny-manhood.html) reveals all about drugs, sex but none of that alleviates the stress it just makes it worse.

Now the drugs don't work. They just make you worse.

SB_UK
10-14-14, 07:57 AM
Summarising

Evolutionary emergence of a type which obtains reward only when other peoples' reward systems are being activated - therefore incentivizing engagement in halping to shape a better world.

Absence of reward (ie in a horrible world where everybody's miserable) and reactive stress.

Mid-braina basis to ADHD ?

SB_UK
10-14-14, 08:34 AM
So ... ...

if we accept that stress results whenever we do anything which isn't rewarding and the flipside that doing rewarding tasks result in a stress-less state
- then we have to ask what is rewarding.
If reward is felt when other people are (in effect) happy ... ... then one's trajectory for living life is set.

To assist in making the world a better place - and to feel a sense of reward from the happiness which people who inabit that world which you've helped to shape - feel.

So - that's neat - because I can't find anything worth achieving (ie this dumbo world's preoccupation with building one's CV) - anything worth achieving which is rewarding.

Take the onus off self and we're away.

mildadhd
10-15-14, 12:13 AM
I am unsure how to discuss the differences between..

-Epigenetic inheritance (transgenerational emotional experiences) that may result in a inherited, more emotionally sensitive temperament?

-Epigenetic prenatal and early post natal emotional experiences that may result in a more emotionally sensitive temperament and/or impairment?

-Epigenetic early emotional experiences that may result in impairment?


The PAG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periaqueductal_gray) and VTA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventral_tegmental_area) are located in the midbrain, below the limbic system.

I don't disagree that the limbic system is involved in "top down" emotional memory and learning, but I am thinking an inherited emotionally hypersensitive temperament from the "bottom up" would precede chronic emotional distressful experiences that may result in impairment?




P

Robertpaulsen
07-05-17, 07:04 PM
In my own personal and purely subjective experience (though I'd bet my dog I'm not unique) apathy, ennui, and procrastination cripple me until Very Bad things on the horizon become immanent doom in my front yard; and, thus, transfigure into something concretely real.
This is what I call THE FEAR, and for a short time, my feeble Briggs and Stratton brain performs like a blown hemi burning nitromethane. The problem is that one can't live like that all the time. The fear cannot be faked, but stimulant medication is helps immensely without the crashing gear changes.

mildadhd
07-06-17, 04:37 PM
I do not deny individual learned subjective emotional environmental experiences must also be involved.

It is interesting because objectively, I cannot live without a FEAR system, in my brain.

Without a primary FEAR system, i would never have learned to feel scared of predators and other types dangers, and would not have survived til now.

Feeling bad scared/anxious all the time is not healthy, but feeling bad scared/anxious when appropriate for survival is healthy.



m