View Full Version : "Primary impulses, not easily described in words.."


mildadhd
10-17-14, 11:54 PM
In this thread I would like to explore and compare what Albert Einstein calls "primary impulses", with the study of Affective Neuroscience.



We all know, from what we experience with and within ourselves, that our conscious acts spring from our desires and our fears.

Intuition tells us that is true also of our fellows and of the higher animals.

We all try to escape pain and death, while we seek what is pleasant.

We all are ruled in what we do by impulses; and these impulses are so organized that our actions in general serve for our self-preservation and and that of the race.

Hunger, love, pain, fear are some of those inner forces which rule the individual's instinct for self-preservation.

At the same time, as social beings, we are moved in the relations with our fellow beings by such feelings as sympathy, pride, hate, need for power, pity, and so on.

All these primary impulses, not easily described in words, are the springs of man's actions.

All such action would cease if those powerful elemental forces were to cease stirring within us.



Though our conduct seems so very different from that of the higher animals, the primary instincts are much alike in them and in us.

The most evident difference springs from the important part which is played in man by a relatively strong power of imagination and by the capacity to think, aided as it by language and other svmbolical devices.



Thought is the organizing factor in man:intersected between the causal primary instincts and the resuIting actions.

In that way imagination and intelligence enter into our existence in the part of servants of the primary instincts.

But their intervention makes our acts to serve ever less merely the immediate claims of our instincts.

Through them the primary instinct attaches itself to ends which become ever more distant.



The instincts bring thought into action, and thought provokes intermediary actions inspired by emotions which are likewise related to the ultimate end.

Through repeated performance, this process brings it about that ideas and beliefs acquire and retain a strong effective power even after the ends which gave them that power are long forgotten.

In abnormal cases of such intensive borrowed emotions, which cling to objects emptied of their erstwhile effective meaning, we speak of fetishism.




Yet the process which I have indicated plays a very important part also in ordinary life.

Indeed there is no doubt that to this process-which one may describe as a spiritualizing of the emotions and of thought-that to it man owes the most subtle and refined pleasures of which he is capable: the pleasure in the beauty of artistic creation and of logical trains of thought.



As far as I can see, there is one consideration which stands at the threshold of all moral teaching.

If men as individuals surrender to the call of their elementary instincts, avoiding pain and seeking satisfaction only for their own selves, the result for them all taken together must be a state of insecurity, of fear, and of promiscuous misery.

If, besides that, they use their intelligence from an individualist, i.e., a selfish standpoint, building up their life on the illusion of a happy unattached existence, things will be hardly better.

In comparison with the other elementary instincts and impulses, the emotions of love, of pity and of friendship are too weak and too cramped to lead to a tolerable state of human society.




The solution of this problem, when freely considered, is simple enough, and it seems also to echo from the teachings of the wise men of the past always in the same strain: All men should let their conduct be guided by the same principles; and those principles should be such, that by following them there should accrue to all as great a measure as possible of security, satisfaction, and as small a measure as possible of suffering.




Of course, this is general requirement is much too vague that we should be able draw from it with confidence specific rules to guide the individuaIs in their actions.

And indeed, these specific rules will have to change in keeping with changing circumstances.

If this were the main difficulty that stands in the way of that keen conception, the millenary fate of man would have been incomparably happier than it actually was, or still is.

Man would not have killed man, tortured each other, exploited each other by force and by guile.





The real difficulty, the difficulty which has baffled the sages of all times, is rather this: how can we make our teaching so potent in the emotional life of man, that its influence should withstand the pressure of the elemental psychic forces in the individual?

We do not know, of course, if the sages of the past have really asked themselves this question, consciously and in this form; but we do know how they have tried to solve the problem.





From Einstein's Out of My Later Years, pp. 15 - 20.




http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/moral.html




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SB_UK
10-18-14, 10:39 AM
How is wisdom taught ?

Can't be taught - needs to be learnt.

Student centric.

The individual has to do it by themselves.

How do you know if it's working ?

You'll find yourself rejecting EVERY aspect of our current rotten global 'social' infrastructure for a truly social infrastructure in which people do because it pleases them and not because it appeases their $lave ma$ter$.

SB_UK
10-18-14, 11:23 AM
http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/meaninglife.html
Einsteins's meaning of life

satisfaction of the desires and needs of all, as far as this can be achieved, and achievement of harmony and beauty in the human relationships. Shift from a competitive to a collaborative society.

So we can all have a lie in for *life* rather than live a lie.

mildadhd
10-18-14, 04:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ICY6-7hJo


(0:40)(Arvid Leyh) ..What are emotions?


(Prof Panksepp) Well, emotions are the way we feel, in a certain way.

It is not a sensory feeling like the pleasure of a wonderful cake, or the pain when you step on a stone.

Those are sensory feelings, they are very important feelings.

We also have very large bodily feelings.

We get hungry.

We get thirsty.

If we run an exercise, we run out of air, and these are also very important feelings.

But on top of that we have these emotional feelings and the emotional feelings are very large bodily and brain responses to the world, and they are, tell animals what is important for survival, inside the brain.

So it is not just outside sensory, it is not the internal receptors of your body.

They are the needs of the brain, such as someone taking valuable resources from you, and you get angry.

That anger is a very basic response.

It is the same as if a animal wants you for a meal, and you have to run away, and your scared.

That is built into the brain.

So Affective Neuroscience is the scientific discipline that tries to understand the emotional feelings of the brain and how many are there.

How are they organized anatomically inside the brain.

What are the neurochemistry's and why is this important?

It is because these are the types of things that we are actually built around.

The emotions have very deep value systems in the brain, and when they become imbalanced people have emotional problems.

There is psychiatric problems.

To much fear.

To much anger.

You cannot feel the pleasure of life.

You have depression.

So if we are going to make progress, in treating people, that have emotional imbalances, we have to develop new medicines that rebalance these emotional systems.

So the aim of Affective Neuroscience is to go to the very foundation of mind.

Mind means experience, subjective experience.

Mind at a fundamental level means, some kind of volition, the system wants to do something and the emotional systems want to do something.

They want to hit.

They want to run away.

They want to caress, like mother and child.

They want to want to cry.

They want to laugh.

And we finally are at a moment in intellectual history of our species, where we can finally understand these biologically, as opposed to just verbally describing them.

That is what Affective Neuroscience is.



(Arvid Leyh) So this sounds very psychological to me.

Psychology has quite a erratic view on emotions, sometimes they didn't look at all.

How can we define emotions, if we can't even define the redness of a rose?



(Prof Panksepp) Well that is the same dilemma of the redness of the rose, of the blueness of the sky or the greenness of the forest.

These are gifts of nature that where built into our brain as tools for living.

And a definition of these primitive psychological processes, is impossible with words.

They are so primitive, and they are shared across all mammals, that they have to be defined neuroscientifically .

They are brain processes.

We have to identify how many there are.

We have to identify the locations of the brain that are important.

We have to identify the chemistries that control them, and then we have to understand how we develop a language, to talk about them clearly.

The languages are symbolic, higher order symbolic things and because of the nature of language many many people right now interested in emotions, go directly to the language level.

But the foundation of our emotional mind, is primitive and it is preverbal.

It's presymbolic.

It is symbolic in the sense, that these are tools for living that enhance survival.

So a good example is pain.

Pain is horrible, but pain is our friend, because pain allows us to survive.

People that have neurological disorder, where they can't fear or feel pain and fear pain, they always die young.

Because they injure their bodies.

They don't have the feedback.

So these automatic symbols of evolutionary survival issues are the affects, the feelings.

And again there are the sensory affects, like pain, or taste.

There are the bodily affects like hunger and thirst.

And then there are the within brain affects, the emotions.

So, we have to learn to look at it on many levels.

At a very fundamental level, all mammals share the same emotions.

The evidence is very powerful for that.

On top of that we have learning mechanisms, and the learning mechanisms operate with the feelings.

So psychologists used to have to use words.

Before they understood these things.

And they developed words like reinforcement for learning, and everyone wondered, what is reinforcement?

No one knows, no one knows, and they said there are good reinforcement, positive reinforcements and there are negative reinforcements.

To this day we don't know what they are.

They are just words, okay.

So we have understanding through concepts.

What Affective Neuroscience has told us, is that feelings are built into the nervous system in a certain way, at a fundamental level.

Even a little baby has feelings.

All mammals, perhaps all vertebrates have feelings, and the evidence for that is enormous...



i!i i!i i!i

mildadhd
10-19-14, 03:12 PM
We all know, from what we experience with and within ourselves, that our conscious acts spring from our desires and our fears. (-Albert Einstein) (From quote in post #1 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1690115&postcount=1))



Consciousness originates primarily from the emotional BrainMind (primary unconditioned emotional response systems)

"desires" = positive feeling emotions (SEEKING system, LUST system, CARE system, PLAY system)

"fears" = negative feeling emotions (FEAR system, RAGE system, PANIC/GRIEF system)







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mildadhd
10-19-14, 04:13 PM
We all try to escape pain and death, while we seek what is pleasant. (Albert Einstein) (see post #1 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1690115&postcount=1))


Focusing on primary unconditioned emotional response systems, primary level of control.

"escape pain and death" = negative feeling emotions (RAGE system, FEAR system, PANIC/GRIEF system)

"seek what is pleasant" = positive feeling emotions (general positive motivation SEEKING/expectancy system, LUST system, CARE system, PLAY system)



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mildadhd
10-19-14, 04:32 PM
Hunger, love, pain, fear are some of those inner forces which rule the individual's instinct for self-preservation. (Albert Einstein) (post # 1 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1690115&postcount=1))


Focusing on primary level of control (instinctual, unconditioned) affective systems.


"Hunger" = Homeostatic Affect

"Love", "Pain" (emotional) and "Fear" = Emotional Affects (SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, PANIC/GRIEF, PLAY)

"Pain" (example, sit on a tac) = Sensory Affect




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mildadhd
10-19-14, 05:13 PM
Levels of Control in Brain Emotional-Affective
State controls (#1) and information Processing (#2 & #3)


3. Tertiary Affects and Neo-cortical "Awareness" Functions.

i) Cognitive Execution Functions: Thoughts & Planning (Frontal cortex)

ii) Emotional Ruminations & Regulations (Medial Frontal Regions)

iii) "Free-will" (Higher Working-Memory functions-Intention-to-Act)



2. Secondary-Process Emotions(Learning via Basal Ganglia)

i) Classical Conditioning (e.g. FEAR via basolateral & central amygdala)

ii) Instrumental & Operant Conditioning (SEEKING via Nucleus Accumbens)

iii) Behavioral & Emotional Habits (Largely unconscious-Dorsal Straitum)



1. Primary-Process, Basic-Primordial Affects (sub-neocortical)

i) Emotional Affects (Emotion Action Systems; Intentions-In-Actions)

ii) Homeostatic Affects (Brain-body Interoceptors: Hunger, Thirst, etc.)

iii) Sensory Affects (Exteroceptive-Sensory triggered pleasurable and unpleasurable/disgusting feelings)





Figure 1.4 A summary of the global levels of control within the brain: (1) Three general types of affects, (2) three types of basic learning mechanisms, and (3) three representative awareness functions of the neocortex (which relies completely on loops down through the basal ganglia to the thalamus, looping back to the neocortex before it can fully elaborate both thoughts and behavior).



Quote from, Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", (Chapter: Ancestral Passions) (Figure 1.4) Page 10.




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mildadhd
10-19-14, 07:09 PM
..Intuition tells us that is true also of our fellows and of the higher animals....We all are ruled in what we do by impulses; and these impulses are so organized that our actions in general serve for our self-preservation and and that of the race....All these primary impulses, not easily described in words, are the springs of man's actions.

All such action would cease if those powerful elemental forces were to cease stirring within us. (Albert Einstein) (post #1 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1690115&postcount=1))



"primary impulses" = "primary affects"


Prof Panksepp has developed an evidence based Affective NeuroScientific psychological language to discuss, instinctual, unconditioned primary emotional affective (feeling) systems, all mammals are born with.


"The relevant lines of evidence are as follows:" (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1680103&postcount=2) (Jaak Panksepp)




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mildadhd
10-19-14, 07:55 PM
How is wisdom taught ?

Can't be taught - needs to be learnt.

Student centric.

The individual has to do it by themselves.

How do you know if it's working ?

You'll find yourself rejecting EVERY aspect of our current rotten global 'social' infrastructure for a truly social infrastructure in which people do because it pleases them and not because it appeases their $lave ma$ter$.


The secondary and tertiary levels of control of the mind will never be completely understood until the primary affective level of control of the mind, that memory and awareness are built upon, is also considered.

Not sure why nobody is interested in using the capitalized affective terminology in discussion to represent actual biological systems and easier discuss psychological "primary impulses" along with secondary and tertiary levels of control?

I literally think and creatively feel the "ground up" affective psychological format would help improve the world for everyone, and everything.








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SB_UK
10-20-14, 04:15 AM
Does any of this make sense ?

Jaak Panksepp mentions that 'PLAY' state is ideal.
'PLAY' state is a state which we're enthusiastic about.

I believe that we can either be enthusiastic about addictions (can't wait till I get my next bun, McDonalds, alcohol, cigarette of snort of heroin) or reward from sensory immersion (ie the mindful/bodyful state) eg 'lost in music' ... ...

When in the 'Play', enthusiastic state we're not distressed.

And so are of even keel/emotion.

Neither high nor low.

Not in the unpleasant duality world but in a fixed state of emotional balance.

Is any of the above anywhere near where you are ?

SB_UK
10-20-14, 05:35 AM
The problem is that it's not really top down from

mind -> down

or bottom up

from 'reptilian brain' duality of happy/sad when threatening/being threatened

- it's something new.

There's no such thing as people 'wandering lonely as a cloud' in evolution.

We're a new bunch which're happy immersed in sensory experience.

The state has been called mindful/bodyful - and represents an even open satisfied state of pure existence.

It's a most excellent state because it really doesn't take much to get into it.

SB_UK
10-20-14, 03:24 PM
"primary impulses" = "primary affects"


Prof Panksepp has developed an evidence based Affective NeuroScientific psychological language to discuss, instinctual, unconditioned primary emotional affective (feeling) systems, all mammals are born with.


"The relevant lines of evidence are as follows:" (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1680103&postcount=2) (Jaak Panksepp)
P

The problem with the dual emotions is that they're routed in survival.

'SEEKING' represents the drive towards overcoming the other emotional duals ?

Human beings with moral minds in a moral society don't need to worry about food, competition, survival, children surviving, mating ... ... all of that stuff is transcended in a society of wise individuals in a wise society.

-*-

There's a pattern eg wikiP/speedball (drug) in that at balance between stimulant and narcotic - there's an intense high.

I think we're just trying to get our duals into balance - whereupon we experience the synergistic benefits of both together - so that's the end of duals - merging into a single unswerving state of balanced duality formation.

mildadhd
10-20-14, 06:48 PM
Does any of this make sense ?

Jaak Panksepp mentions that 'PLAY' state is ideal.
'PLAY' state is a state which we're enthusiastic about.





Like the other 5 (known) primary emotional affects, the SEEKING system and the PLAY system are separate primary emotional affective systems that communicate with each other.

The following quote is meant as part of one Affective Neuroscientific example for discussion, in regards to part of SB_UK's quote above.

There are plenty of more research about the SEEKING system, PLAY system, and other "primary impluses" (primary affects) to discuss as well.





MISUNDERSTANDINGS ABOUT PLAY

Developmental and social psychologists have divided human play into several categories: exploratory, relational, constructive, dramatic/symbolic games, and the kind of rough-and-tumble play that one most readily sees in young animals (Slade & Wolf, 1994).

Embedded in these psychological taxonomies are two common problems:

First, psychologists often confuse PLAY with mere curiosity--with the arousal of investigatory activities promoted by the SEEKING system (Welker, 1971; Weisler & McCall, 1976).

Second, many misinterpret PLAY as a form of aggression, as reflected in the common label "play-fighting" for for rough-and-tumble play (Aldis, 1975).

Although few would go so far as to view PLAY as a manifestation of the RAGE system, there is probably considerable truth to the view that the types of jousting for dominance commonly seen in many species, especially when sexual readiness is high, are somehow related to behavioral refinements that are honed during juvenile play.

However, as we will discuss shortly, rough-and-tumble PLAY has no relationship to any angry type aggression, though prolonged play bouts do often end with one animal complaining more than the other.



Let us consider the first of these problems, the confusion of PLAY with curiosity--with the mere arousal of the SEEKING system (which we should note, clearly promotes and is active during play.)

There is robust evidence that PLAY and SEEKING are distinct, albeit interactive, systems.

When placed in new environments, animals typically exhibit strong exploratory activity with little tendency to play until they are familiar with their surroundings.

Neurochemical evidence may also be taken to support the distinction between PLAY and SEEKING.

We have seen that dopamine fuels the SEEKING system, and psychostimulants such as amphetamines strongly increase brain dopamine activity.

Increase in dopamine activity produces vigorous exploratory behavior while markedly reducing play (Beatty et al., 1982).

Blocking dopamine receptors, however, also reduces play (Siviy, 2010).



Although psychostimulants decrease play, dopamine systems are nevertheless aroused during normal PLAY (Panksepp, 1993).

Recent works indicates that the high frequency (50-kHz) ultrasonic chirping sounds that rats make during play are vigorously promoted by brain dopamine arousal (Brudzynski et al., 2010; Burgdorf et al., 2001, 2007).

Further support for the role of dopamine in play (perhaps through SEEKING arousal) is the fact that various dopamine receptor blockers are quite effective in reducing play (Siviy, 2010).

This is to expected, however, because rough-and-tumble play involves a great deal of to-and-fro activity and frequent moments of pleasurable anticipation, an emotional state that is fuelled by dopamine.

In other words, the fact that dopamine participates in PLAY arousal does not mean that dopamine causes play.

Dopamine is secreted in response to many positive incentives, including opportunities to play.

Therefore, the secretion of dopamine during play may simply indicate that the animal is engaged in an activity that entails a great deal of positive anticipation and euphoria.




Even it it turns out that dopamine does actively arouse the PLAY urge, however, research has surely not yet determined whether the same populations of dopamine neurons are active during social PLAY as during nonsocial exploration.

It may be that some types of dopamine activity arouse the PLAY system while others arouse the SEEKING system.

These questions will only be resolved through further research..


Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter: PLAYful Dreamlike Circuits of the Brain, P 359-360.



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Hathor
10-20-14, 07:16 PM
I want to cut off my penis

That sure was easy; wasn't it?

mildadhd
10-20-14, 08:44 PM
I want to cut off my penis

That sure was easy; wasn't it?

I would discuss a safer approach with your doctor.





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mildadhd
10-20-14, 09:17 PM
I believe that we can either be enthusiastic about addictions (can't wait till I get my next bun, McDonalds, alcohol, cigarette of snort of heroin) or reward from sensory immersion (ie the mindful/bodyful state) eg 'lost in music' ... ...






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5smTLCKkUA4



______________




Abstract

The mesolimbic dopaminergic (ML-DA) system has been recognized for its central role in motivated behaviors, various types of reward, and, more recently, in cognitive processes. Functional theories have emphasized DA's involvement in the orchestration of goal-directed behaviors, and in the promotion and reinforcement of learning. The affective neuroethological perspective presented here, views the ML-DA system in terms of its ability to activate an instinctual emotional appetitive state (SEEKING) evolved to induce organisms to search for all varieties of life-supporting stimuli and to avoid harms.

A description of the anatomical framework in which the ML system is embedded is followed by the argument that the SEEKING disposition emerges through functional integration of ventral basal ganglia (BG) into thalamocortical activities. Filtering cortical and limbic input that spread into BG, DA transmission promotes the “release” of neural activity patterns that induce active SEEKING behaviors when expressed at the motor level. Reverberation of these patterns constitutes a neurodynamic process for the inclusion of cognitive and perceptual representations within the extended networks of the SEEKING urge. In this way, the SEEKING disposition influences attention, incentive salience, associative learning, and anticipatory predictions.

In our view, the rewarding properties of drugs of abuse are, in part, caused by the activation of the SEEKING disposition, ranging from appetitive drive to persistent craving depending on the intensity of the affect. The implications of such a view for understanding addiction are considered, with particular emphasis on factors predisposing individuals to develop compulsive drug seeking behaviors.

Keywords: Mesolimbic, Dopamine, Motivation, Reward, Accumbens, Addiction



Behavioral Functions of the Mesolimbic Dopaminergic System: an Affective Neuroethological Perspective (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2238694/?report=classic)





_____________




Minor pathways

Ventral tegmental area (VTA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventral_tegmental_area) → Amygdala
VTA → Hippocampus
VTA → Cingulate gyrus
VTA → Olfactory bulb

The mesocortical and mesolimbic pathways are sometimes referred to simultaneously as the mesocorticolimbic projection, system, or pathway.[2][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways

mildadhd
10-20-14, 10:23 PM
Why does a PLAY urge exist?

It it probably enables the young to learn nonsocial physical skills like hunting, foraging, and so on.

It is also surely important for acquiring many social capacities, especially nascent aggressive, courting, sexual, and in some species, competitive and perhaps even parenting skills.

It may be an essential force for the construction of the many higher functions of our social brains.

Playful activities may help young animals learn to identify individuals with whom they can develop and cooperative relationships and to know who they should avoid.

They surely learn through play when they can dominate social interactions and when they should gracefully disengage, submit or accept defeat.

Play can also have a darker side.

When animals play, they may learn whom they can bully and who can bully them.

In short, the brain's PLAY networks may help stitch individuals into the stratified social fabric that will be the staging ground for their lives, and these networks may also prepare them to handle various unexpected events that life will surely throw their way (Spinka et al., 2001)



The PLAY urge is both robust and fragile.

It is fragile because a great number of environmental manipulations can reduce play--including all events that evoke negative emotional states such as anger, fear, pain, and separation distress; it is especially sensitive to species-typical fear stimuli such as the smell of predators for rats (Panksepp, 1998a, Fig. 1.1; Siviy et al., 2006).

For instance, if a laboratory researcher has a pet cat at home, and he is not careful to change his clothes before going to work, he will have a difficult time studying the play of rats because the odor of cats intrinsically scares rats, and fearful rats simply do not play.

Likewise, rats are scared of well-lit open spaces; they play in safe burrows, away from the attentions of predators.

In addition, hunger is a powerful inhibitor of play (Siviy & Panksepp, 1985), as are may other bodily imbalances, including of course, illness.

This is a general principle: Play only occurs when one is safe, secure and feeling good, which makes play an exceptionally sensitive measure for all things bad.

PLAY, however, is also a robust system:

If young animals are healthy and feeling good, they almost invariably play together when given the chance.



Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter: PLAYful Dreamlike Circuits of the Brain, P 354-355.





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mildadhd
10-21-14, 12:02 AM
I want to cut off my penis

That sure was easy; wasn't it?


Ohhhhhh?

Your description stimulated negative feeling primary emotional response systems and the unsafe feeling of wanting to escape punishment.

-Want (SEEKING system)

-Fight (RAGE system), Freeze or Flight (FEAR system)


(Sort of reminds me of a different example Kunga Dorji introduced me to, by Dr.Porges.)


Is that what you mean?






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mildadhd
10-21-14, 12:31 AM
Student centric.




Thanks

I really love your idea of a "student centric" approach.

I think this approach also works for adults, teachers, caregivers, bosses, etc, as well as the students.

The terms also reminds me of my favorite chapters on ADHD and healing in the book "Scattered" by Dr.Mate.

I realize that there is lots of important topics that you brought up that I haven't focused on in my replies, I need to spend some time learning and better understanding how primary affects (feelings) connect the body to the mind.

Again I really appreciate the discussions.







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Hathor
10-21-14, 12:55 AM
Ohhhhhh?

Your description stimulated negative feeling primary emotional response systems and the unsafe feeling of wanting to escape punishment.

-Want (SEEKING system)

-Fight (RAGE system), Freeze or Flight (FEAR system)


(Sort of reminds me of a different example Kunga Dorji introduced me to, by Dr.Porges.)


Is that what you mean?






P

I don't know what I mean, but your analysis sounds to be on the right track :confused:

mildadhd
10-21-14, 01:15 AM
I don't know what I mean, but your analysis sounds to be on the right track :confused:

Without focusing on any specific individuals.

I also thought about everyone's individual sexual identity and LUST system and other positive feeling primary emotions that could be involved, in general.

Some of my friends are transgender. (I am not an expert on the topics, I hope that is the right terminology?)

Either way, I want promote a safe and comfortable environment for everyone.

(as apposed to a unsafe and uncomfortable environment for everyone, penis or not)

I don't think anybody should take these cutting measures into their own hands.











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Hathor
10-21-14, 01:34 AM
If it makes you feel better I only wanted to cut mine off, nobody elses. Not to be transgender, but non gender

"at first I had no choice, then I became all bitter and twisted" - Morissey

Right now I do not feel quite so negative, but it seems to keep coming back

mildadhd
10-21-14, 01:51 AM
If it makes you feel better I only wanted to cut mine off, nobody elses. Not to be transgender, but non gender

"at first I had no choice, then I became all bitter and twisted" - Morissey

Right now I do not feel quite so negative, but it seems to keep coming back


I didn't think you wanted to cut my penis off.

I thought you might have been focusing on the response a person might have after the thought of getting a penis cut off.

I haven't learned or studied all the neurological terminology involved.

(Kunga Dorji knows alot about Dr.Porges work)

Not sure if I am in the right ballpark or not?

I will look for some examples.



A few years ago, I used to take Wellbutrin for anxiety for a year or two.

One day I quit cold turkey. (I was suppose to wean myself off slowly over time)

I was so depressed I felt like killing myself.

(luckily a ADDFriend who I have never met in person, supported me through that tuff period)

I never felt like that before, or again since.

But I swore I would never doubt anyone else, again.

"Who feels it knows it" (Bob Marley)

Its always easier to say, but have you discussed these topics with your doctor or anyone with similar experiences?




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SB_UK
10-21-14, 06:47 AM
Attempting to make this as simple as possible.

What should human beings with minds be enthusiastic about ?

The materialistic urge (ie as much knowledge or power or money as possible).
No.

Quality.
Yes.

To produce or experience quality there's a considerable amount of individual training (to produce) and individual seeking (to experience).
Although seeking would superficially appear to be trivial ie searching the Internet - we need to have developed our quality sensing machinery in order to find and derive pleasure from quality when we encounter it.

Is there any difference in generating vs experiencing quality ?

Can one derive pleasure from experiencing quality if one does not attempt to generate quality simultaneously eg can an individual who cannot cook develop the palate of a high quality chef.

Don't know.

Can somebody who doesn't play an instrument very well appreciate music.

Now ... ... I'd say that this is definitely possible.

-*-

Seeking and Play ? Training and employing quality sensing machinery towards the development of pleasure.

So finding ultra high quality equipment for reproducing music of sufficient complexity to produce pleasure.

Music is an easy one.

What about simple bare foot walking in the silence in the sunshine ?

What has had to be developed in order to derive reward from simple immersion in the sensory world ?

All that has had to be overcome is mind (ie achieving wisdom).

So - we're back to seeking and play as being the competition between ideas for supremacy with the conclusion of the fight representing wisdom which is simply giving oneself permission to have one's reward system activated by sensory immersion.

But what of ADD vs nonADD divide ?

It feels like
ADD at development of mind progresses mind whilst developing personal quality towards transcending both.
nonADD at development of mind progresses mind towards transcending it.

Meaning ?

That for most of recorded history human beings have been trying to work out how we came to be.
Understanding a mechanism for evolution gets us there.
We're looking at emergence of a new species which are living in a world now where we understand our context sufficiently for it not to be our prime directive.

So - what's next - development of personal quality and just simple completion of mind - towards being able to 'return to the garden' ie to live life without the need to do anything.

So - nonADDer tasked with completing mind; ADDer more drawn towards developing quality and more predisposed towards completing mind such that in both cases individuals get to live a little before dying.

So - the nonADDer will be pulled more towards living within a hierarchical society and will bumble along towards enlightenment - but probably not if they're good little boys and girls and do what they're told.
The ADDer's boat is floated by quality, has a mind which crystallizes wisdom more easily than nonADDer - and so pursues not competitive materialism but creative beauty generation as our minds naturally (if we're lucky enough to have the time to think) complete and we acquire wisdom.

OK - and after wisdom - does the individual continue either nonADDer (the pursuit of knowledge) or ADDer (the pursuit of beauty) -
- well I don't think that it's required.

The pursuit of knowledge is only to get the individual to wisdom.
The pursuit of beauty is a good thing for people to want to aspire to - but if most people spend their lives up until wisdom trying to make something beautiful through a form of 'compulsion' - and then're freed from the compulsion
- then maybe the driving motivation is lost ?

and the individual shifts from being one who aspires to generate to someone who desires to experience.

Summary
The mind is complete - or rather the species has done enough from the earliest works of religion to 20th century physics to cobble together how we came to be.
A species which has spent its time trying to work out its own context then has a problem - we don't actually need to spend any more time trying to work it out - all we have to do is synthesize the information into a simple form which cna be taught and which'll guarantee that the student will attain a state of wisdom/enforced moral consistency.

So - what we'd expect is for the species to move on - and the species moves on from one which is programmed to work out context to one which is programmed to develop personal (neural) quality whilst being taught (in the background) enough to understand context and hence attain wisdom.

At state wisdom - the individual is happy through straight existence ie has nothing to prove.

Doesn't desire to make any more in-roads into understanding - because the point of knowledge to attain wisdom - has been completed.
Doesn't desire to generate (or is not so compelled to generate) quality - because the point of that was simply to do something whilst attaining wisdom.

The state of wisdom simply represents a state in which the individual is sufficiently satisfied in pure existence ie doesn't *have* to do anything to earn 'reward' - because the reward is forthcoming simply through sensory immersion.

Opening the gates to perception ?

So - what do you do when you hit wisdom ?
Doesn't really matter.
You have won (we all can win) - the rest is simply a state of operating in logical consistency with one's own mind in society (ie moral individual in moral society) ... ...

Personally I just want to spend time with a doggy (armed with biodegradable poop bags) running barefoot for hours and hours in the sun - with the occasional usage of a personal stereo playing Boards of Canada or anything featuring layered guitars.

-*-

We all have just one question - why are we here ? what are we supposed to do ?

We are supposed to hit a frame of mind which no longer cares why we're here.
We're supposed to get to that frame of mind which no longer cares why we're here.

And that's all there is to it ... ... acquisition of wisdom in ADDer through self-assembly of mind whilst developing 'beauty' (personal quality) ... ... enhanced self-assembly of mind means that ADDer is of greater moral consistency whilst heading for enforced moral consistency ie will tend towards beauty which enhances the life of people generally.

SB_UK
10-21-14, 07:25 AM
So what's the big difference between adder and nonadder.

The ADDer will tend towards until they've acquired the wise state of mind.
And the ADDer as they're tending towards the wise state of mind will be driven mad by a society which consists of people which generate a world in which absolutely EVERYTHING involves competition - and most of the EVERYTHING that involves competition just isn't worth 'fighting' for.

Worse still - in the ADDer's tendency towards quality - in those areas where quality generation occurs ina competitive environment - it's soon clear that there's an inverse relationship between the most aggressive competitor and the most creative individual.

That is - that attaining personal quality and expressly aiming to be better than other people are wholly incompatible.

The 'gumbis' will rise to the top and the people who desire what's best will be relegated into the soiled toilets of some rich person's slave quarters.

Which is exactly what happens ... ... ...

To be moral in an immoral world is not possible - and so the moral hole up in a cardboard box in some cave some place hoping to ride out a storm which (pops their head out every couple of years) just NEVER seems to end.

Hathor
10-21-14, 02:48 PM
Thanks SB UK and P

Mind is a disease of semen.

All that a man is or may be is hidden therein.

Bodily functions are parts of the machine; silent, unless in dis-ease.

mildadhd
10-21-14, 07:48 PM
Abstract

Compared to the study of negative emotions such as fear, the neurobiology of positive emotional processes and the associated positive affect (PA) states has only recently received scientific attention. Biological theories conceptualize PA as being related to (i) signals indicating that bodies are returning to equilibrium among those studying homeostasis, (ii) utility estimation among those favoring neuroeconomic views, and (iii) approach and other instinctual behaviors among those cultivating neuroethological perspectives. Indeed, there are probably several distinct forms of positive affect, but all are closely related to ancient sub-neocortical limbic brain regions we share with other mammals. There is now a convergence of evidence to suggest that various regions of the limbic system, including especially ventral striatal dopamine systems are implemented in an anticipatory (appetitive) positive affective state. Dopamine independent mechanisms utilizing opiate and GABA receptors in the ventral striatum, amygdala and orbital frontal cortex are important in elaborating consummatory PA (i.e. sensory pleasure) states, and various neuropeptides mediate homeostatic satisfactions. (-Burgdorf, Panksepp)

"The neurobiology of positive emotions." (http://www.gruberpeplab.com/teaching/psych231_fall2013/documents/231_BurgdorfPanksepp2006.pdf)




Primary PLAY is the secret weapon. :)


This is a general principle: Play only occurs when one is safe, secure and feeling good, which makes play an exceptionally sensitive measure for all things bad.


Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter: PLAYful Dreamlike Circuits of the Brain, P 354-355. (see quote Post #18 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1690851&postcount=18) )



P

SB_UK
10-25-14, 02:52 PM
This is a general principle: Play only occurs when one is safe, secure and feeling good, which makes play an exceptionally sensitive measure for all things bad. Excellent quote.

However ... ... there is a problem ... ...

http://cdn1.beeffco.com/files/poll-images/normal/capitalism-vesus-socialism_5292.jpg

SB_UK
10-25-14, 02:54 PM
Anybody with the mind to be creative will also be aware of the gun toting rentier capitalists in a large ring - with the 99.9% in the centre.

http://i.imgur.com/cbV1jWl.png

SB_UK
10-25-14, 03:05 PM
Now it's interesting to ask how we'd play if we didn't have to earn money.

Well you could do anything that you want.
Would be free to live a life of play.
Would be free to be the best you'd or least you'd like to be.

Just play.

A life of only play.

Hathor
10-25-14, 07:04 PM
Anybody with the mind to be creative will also be aware of the gun toting rentier capitalists in a large ring - with the 99.9% in the centre.

http://i.imgur.com/cbV1jWl.png

Yes I know about that steroid spiked donut they hope to fly pigs with, but I can play Legion too! Play time is just starting for me.

Perhaps I am a sick man a'la Amos 5:18 for preferring this day of pigs to the boring 1990s, but sickness is as sickness does.

4 6 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L.

http://raha8.ir/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/raha8.ir-bermuda-triangle.jpg

Emma E. Booker Elementary School is an elementary school in Sarasota, Florida which opened in the fall of 1989. It is named for Emma E. Booker, an African-American educator who founded the first black school in Sarasota County, Florida.

Glad I didn't cut my d!ck off!

SB_UK
10-26-14, 03:42 AM
aye ! Mos 5 23-4 - stop your annoying singing and just be nice to people by discarding money, personal property ...

Singing ain't gonna' change anything nor reading about the wrath of a monster presence.

Just make a fair society and then live happily ever after.

Ageing populations having to work longer sicker until retirement and younger generations unable to afford education and find a job.
And then there's the squeezed middle paying for the young and old without the money to cover either.

Making life unpleasant for EVERYBODY currently.

SB_UK
10-26-14, 04:15 AM
missed post edit deadline.

Nobody needs religion in order to see that the mechanics of the systems that human beings employ (to be immoral for money to pay your way) does not improve the lives of people; it's immoral to charge any more than it costs for a job - and the entire economic system encourages people to charge as much in excess as they'll be able to get away with.

mildadhd
10-30-14, 04:14 PM
The real difficulty, the difficulty which has baffled the sages of all times, is rather this: how can we make our teaching so potent in the emotional life of man, that its influence should withstand the pressure of the elemental psychic forces in the individual? (See quote, post#1 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1690115&postcount=1))



From Einstein's Out of My Later Years, pp. 15 - 20.



Things have changed since Albert Einstein wrote the quote above, and if we choose, it is now much easier to understand the emotional life of human.

Simply by including in the study of psychology, the study of the 7 basic primary unconditioned emotional response systems, from an Affective Neuroscientific perspective.




P

mildadhd
10-31-14, 08:50 PM
..And indeed, these specific rules will have to change in keeping with changing circumstances.

If this were the main difficulty that stands in the way of that keen conception, the millenary fate of man would have been incomparably happier than it actually was, or still is. (see post quote #1) (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1690115&postcount=1)


Albert Einstein encouraged "change in keeping with changing circumstances".

I am perplexed why nobody is interested in the biology of the 7 primary unconditioned emotional response systems ("primary impulses")?

I think and feel Albert Einstein would recognize the enormous benefits for all human beings by also considering Affective Neuroscientific terminology/research.



P

SB_UK
11-01-14, 09:15 AM
If the point in life is to be happy and if being happy is an emotion - then the emotion is of prime importance.

Is happy an emotion ? Is happy play state ?
- in which case play state changes with stage in the life-cycle.

I don't think that Einstein would like playing with jingly jangly mobiles suspended above his cot.

mildadhd
11-01-14, 09:28 PM
If the point in life is to be happy and if being happy is an emotion - then the emotion is of prime importance.

Is happy an emotion ? Is happy play state ?
- in which case play state changes with stage in the life-cycle.

I don't think that Einstein would like playing with jingly jangly mobiles suspended above his cot.


Question.

Do you agree with the evidence for existence of the 7 primary unconditioned emotional response systems, or not?



P

Hathor
11-02-14, 07:10 AM
I am perplexed why nobody is interested in the biology of the 7 primary unconditioned emotional response systems ("primary impulses")?




P

Well for one thing about 99.9 percent of the population think the human mind is a money making machine, not a higher organ to harvest the Wizzy.

Then figure that the few thinkers you may run into may have their minds fully occupied with their own trip - For example right now I should be learning some blend of Kami Sutra and Mesmerism rather than whimpering and crying about cutting my d!ck off!

Keep posting on Mate matey, I may jump in with more time sometime, but in the meantime at least you are smarting yourself!

mildadhd
11-02-14, 05:26 PM
Yes, I must apologize to SB_UK

Sorry Brother.

You are huge truthful moral-physiological influence.

Example, I really want to meet a woman someday who would like to fast with me.

(Although that probably won't happen until I learn to fast sometimes myself, but I am working on it, and really appreciate the guidance and support)

(This is only one example of many)

I don't disagree as much as I am trying focus more on the primary level of control, in this thread.

That takes keeping the discussion more on a preverbal less subjective biological primary level.

But I also understand that a experienced BrainMind/MindBrain works on all 3 primary and secondary, tertiary levels of control.

Also the preverbal primary level of control makes it hard to verbally discuss.

All levels of control are very important.(understatement)


What I like really like learning about the 7 (known) unconditioned emotional response systems at the primary level of control, is focusing and understanding the unconditioned affective biology before any post natal painful individual conditioned experiences occur.

I am trying to avoid bringing up individual psychological painful emotional experiences as possible.

Although I also know that is not always possible.

I hope this makes sense, I am learning please leave room for error and complexity.

Love P

mildadhd
11-02-14, 06:27 PM
"Implicit memory is responsible for much of human behavior, its working all the more influential because unconscious."

-Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", (Chapter 26: Memories Are Made Of This) (See thread (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1693889&postcount=1))



Approx 90% of the size of a human adult brain is developed by the age of 4*, during the early preverbal emotional unconscious implicit stage of development.

To give an extreme example, if we really want to understand and prevent some people who are suffering from emotional illness from committing terrible acts of violence before they happen, we all need to focus on and understand the early period of implicit development better.

The same goes for preventing or lessening the severity of all emotional health issues, including people who suffer from ADHD.



P

mildadhd
11-02-14, 06:52 PM
Then figure that the few thinkers you may run into may have their minds fully occupied with their own trip - For example right now I should be learning some blend of Kami Sutra and Mesmerism rather than whimpering and crying about cutting my d!ck off!



Thanks

I did notice that threads involving discussions bringing attention to certain biological organs get more views.

Although I did not think or plan that at the time, when I was acting/posting like a penis.


Sorry again SB_UK

I was completely out of line.


P

mildadhd
11-02-14, 08:16 PM
"The biggest man you ever did see, was once a baby"


(Bob Marley, from the song "Coming From The Cold")



*********



..when Einstein was four or five, he had his first scientific experience: his father showed him a pocket compass and the young boy marveled at the fact that regardless of where the compass was turned, the needle always pointed north.


http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/einstein/section1.html

Hathor
11-02-14, 09:54 PM
"I am a sexpert! I was born by sex. When you make love and having sex, you make two people into one and out come a baby and make it three in one! The church fight against it, but they all wrong. If there was no sex, we would die and with us would die truth and religion. God loves sex."

http://www.upsetter.net/scratch/words/index.htm

mildadhd
11-02-14, 10:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN0PI5b4Nww

I am finding something better than smoking ganga. (no judgment whatsoever on Ras Perry)

Implicit conscious awareness.

(it is working so well, I want to be an addiction therapist, with some a sort of confidence that I have never felt before)

I sit or lay down and literally say "Implicit", Implicit" "Implicit" and focus on my brain stem/midbrain area, in comparison to the rest of my brain, and think about what I know about implicit emotional memory.

And I forget about the cravings.

I know it is the consciousness awareness that is working because in the past when I tried to stop smoking ganga, I could not play my guitar, creativity was lacking, or listen to reggae without the music triggering the conditioned cravings, which used to cause me to fall off the wagon.

But since I started focusing on implicit consciousness, I have played my guitar more than usual, wrote some songs and listened to reggae as much as usual, without smoking the ganga.

(Not even the smell of others smoking has got to me, I live in a place where the smell is common, a friend even offered me some and I had no problem saying "no thanks, thank you anyway".)



Yesterday I got really distressed due to something that happened in my personal life.

But instead of focusing on implicit consciousness or smoking the ganga, I took my frustration out on one of my best friends.

I want SB_UK to know that my frustration had nothing to do with him.

(Jah, Rastafari, not smoking a spliff and I can handle the disturbance)





P