View Full Version : Were you born at age 4?


mildadhd
11-04-14, 03:39 AM
How many people with ADHD where born at age 4?





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mildadhd
11-04-14, 03:58 AM
Learning begins at birth.

The first years of a child’s life are incredibly important. Babies and toddlers aren’t just cute—they are growing and developing at an astonishing rate. About 85 percent of the human brain develops in the first three years of life. During this crucial developmental time, young children form the “wiring” needed to think, communicate, move and form attachments with those around them. Children who have nurturing, healthy and supportive experiences in their early years are much better prepared to succeed in school and life.



http://thrivebyfivewa.org/why-early-learning/




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mildadhd
11-04-14, 04:55 AM
The urgency

We know that early experiences matter, yet not every child gets a great start in life.


1. Less than 4 percent of public investment in education and child development occurs during the first three years — the time when children’s brains grow the fastest and the most.

2. As early as 9 months old, children in poverty begin to show signs of slipping behind in their development.

3. Exposure to toxic stress in the first few years of a child’s life can lead to permanent changes in learning (linguistic, cognitive, and social‐emotional skills), behavior, and long term physical health.

4. Many children from vulnerable families have no access to high‐quality pre‐kindergarten, home visiting, high‐quality child care, or other programs that have been shown to close the opportunity gap for minority and poor children.



http://thrivebyfivewa.org/why-early-learning/




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mildadhd
11-04-14, 05:05 AM
Oops, did I spell "were" wrong in the thread title, poll question and opening post?

I sometimes get mixed up about witch one is witch.

Were and Where


The title and poll question should be...

Were you born at age 4?


And the OP should read....

How many people with ADHD were born at age 4?


( I think) :)




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Corina86
11-04-14, 05:20 AM
I don't come from a poor background, my family was ok, but I started developing late: late walker, late talker and unsociable. My older brother developed all these skills much sooner than me.

I'm not sure if this answers your question. I didn't vote in the poll, because I don't know what to choose.

mildadhd
11-04-14, 05:40 AM
I don't come from a poor background, my family was ok, but I started developing late: late walker, late talker and unsociable. My older brother developed all these skills much sooner than me.

I'm not sure if this answers your question. I didn't vote in the poll, because I don't know what to choose.

Thanks,

Sometimes I read threads involving theories about ADHD, that focus on the age of 4 and up.

I am wondering why some theories about ADHD don't include the developmental period before the age of 4, when such abundant brain development and mechanisms involved in ADHD are developing for the first time?

I posted the"Thrive by Five" link, as a general example about the extreme importance of this period of development for all children, with the idea that it also must be also extremely important period of development for us as well.


Passed my bedtime.

Thanks for asking.


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Corina86
11-04-14, 07:09 AM
I think it's more difficult to evaluate children under the age of 4 and, generally, small children. If a child has a speaking delay, for example, it's hard to tell if it's shyness, ADHD, autism, sensory processing disorder, a neuro-motor disorder, trauma, parental negligence or even a language barrier between the child and the evaluator.

mildadhd
11-07-14, 07:29 PM
I think it's more difficult to evaluate children under the age of 4 and, generally, small children. If a child has a speaking delay, for example, it's hard to tell if it's shyness, ADHD, autism, sensory processing disorder, a neuro-motor disorder, trauma, parental negligence or even a language barrier between the child and the evaluator.


Focusing on ADHD...

85% percent brain development occurs before the age of 4, why aren't we as a society learning how to evalute the topics better?

Many people know that I am really interested in Dr.Mate's work.

Dr.Mate focuses on family's brain development from before conception, before the age of 4* and through out life.

There is a lot (understatement) of research information about early life in Dr.Mate's book "Scattered", about origin and treatment of ADHD.

"Scattered" was written in 1999, there is lots (understatement) research to back up his work, since 1999.

Why is society not interested learning about and promoting a healthy environment for hypersensitive children's early development and family's with ADHD, especially before the age of 4*?

Development before the age of 4* should be the first level of priority for our societies.

85%.......before the age of 4*


Could list lots of information about brain development before the age of 4*.

The problem in my opinion is not very many people are interested.




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Lunacie
11-07-14, 08:05 PM
I agree with this:

Learning begins at birth.

The first years of a child’s life are incredibly important. Babies and toddlers aren’t just cute—they are growing and developing at an astonishing rate. About 85 percent of the human brain develops in the first three years of life. During this crucial developmental time, young children form the “wiring” needed to think, communicate, move and form attachments with those around them. Children who have nurturing, healthy and supportive experiences in their early years are much better prepared to succeed in school and life.

I think a nurturing, healthy and supportive childhood can minimize the
impairments of having ADHD - but I don't believe they can prevent ADHD.

mildadhd
11-07-14, 08:19 PM
I agree with this:



I think a nurturing, healthy and supportive childhood can minimize the
impairments of having ADHD - but I don't believe they can prevent ADHD.

Let's focus on minimizing then.

I will write minimizing ADHD impairment before the age of 4* next time.




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SB_UK
11-08-14, 04:42 AM
I agree with this:



I think a nurturing, healthy and supportive childhood can minimize the
impairments of having ADHD - but I don't believe they can prevent ADHD.

Can you explain what has lead you to this conclusion ?
Not in disagreement - just want to know what you're using as your evidence base.

If I were to state my opinion it is that distress is the basis to disorder in ADHD and so the more distress that is felt (any definition) - the worse that disorder in ADHD will be since disorder 'compounds'.
Also that subject to the same amount of distress - that the intrinsically more sensitive ADDer will be more distressed.

The basis to 'compound' is negative feedback ie in the presence of chronic distress - the body makes chronic measures to re-balance - with stronger perceived stress (sensitive type) ... ...

SB_UK
11-08-14, 05:03 AM
To be clear - all that I'm stating is that chronic distress is bad.

It's just a general point which - I can't really see anybody disagreeing with.

So what's distress ?

Anything which triggers self-soothing as described by Peripheral's Rat Park where distress triggers the desire for pain cessation via opioid system activation through self-administering morphine.

daveddd
11-08-14, 08:29 AM
can someone give me a clear difference between minimizing impairments and preventing impairments from being bad enough to qualify for a dx

what areas do we think can be minimized ?,

what areas can't?


and what are these conclusions based off ?

i know early intervention in autism has been shown to completely take away the dx in some

daveddd
11-08-14, 08:45 AM
we know nobody is born with add , no child is born with the ability to self regulate

barkley talks about the irritable infant temperament being a high risk, but only about 50% of those infants going on to have add

so how to teach the kids with irritable temperament (hypersensitive) self regulation?

Lunacie
11-08-14, 10:34 AM
we know nobody is born with add , no child is born with the ability to self regulate

barkley talks about the irritable infant temperament being a high risk, but only about 50% of those infants going on to have add

so how to teach the kids with irritable temperament (hypersensitive) self regulation?

Just because babies aren't able to self-regulate at birth,
that doesn't mean they couldn't have been born with ADHD.

It means we won't recognize symptoms until they lag behind neuro-typical kids.



I wish I had known how to teach my grandkids self-regulation,
but because no one taught me, I just didn't know.

The youngest has benefited from having people at the mental health clinic
work with her. She has autism. This work didn't start until she was 5 though.

The oldest didn't have that benefit and she's struggling a lot. She has ADHD.

daveddd
11-08-14, 10:38 AM
Just because babies aren't able to self-regulate at birth,
that doesn't mean they couldn't have been born with ADHD.

It means we won't recognize symptoms until they lag behind neuro-typical kids.



I wish I had known how to teach my grandkids self-regulation,
but because no one taught me, I just didn't know.

The youngest has benefited from having people at the mental health clinic
work with her. She has autism. This work didn't start until she was 5 though.

The oldest didn't have that benefit and she's struggling a lot. She has ADHD.

well no one was born with the current definition of add -lack of self regulation


born with something that interferes with developing it, sure, thats likely

Lunacie
11-08-14, 10:40 AM
Can you explain what has lead you to this conclusion ?
Not in disagreement - just want to know what you're using as your evidence base.

If I were to state my opinion it is that distress is the basis to disorder in ADHD and so the more distress that is felt (any definition) - the worse that disorder in ADHD will be since disorder 'compounds'.
Also that subject to the same amount of distress - that the intrinsically more sensitive ADDer will be more distressed.

The basis to 'compound' is negative feedback ie in the presence of chronic distress - the body makes chronic measures to re-balance - with stronger perceived stress (sensitive type) ... ...


Research has shown that ADHD has a stronger genetic basis than any other inherited condition.
To me that says that we are born with it, just like we may be born with inherited color-blindness.

Lunacie
11-08-14, 10:52 AM
well no one was born with the current definition of add -lack of self regulation


born with something that interferes with developing it, sure, thats likely

I think that's begging the point. If we are born with something that impairs
development of self-regulation, and impairment in self-regulation is the
definition of ADHD, then we were basically born with ADHD.

daveddd
11-08-14, 10:56 AM
I think that's begging the point. If we are born with something that impairs
development of self-regulation, and impairment in self-regulation is the
definition of ADHD, then we were basically born with ADHD.

maybe, but possibly not

something that makes achieving self regulation extremely difficulty , isn't the same to me as not being biologically able to self regulate

the "basically" point is fine for some

but not for discovering the true etiology of a syndrome

SB_UK
11-08-14, 11:00 AM
Are you sure we're not just talking about ADHD as a gun with a more sensitive trigger which is good under certain but bad under current environments - eg the dirty immoral one we have currently - where we're being triggered on a moment by moment basis.

Sensitivity inherited. <- ADD without disorder just a sensitive individual
Sensitivity Sensitized dependent on environment. <- ADHD disorder ie conditions relating to chronic distress

If 10% of the children in USA are being hit by ADHD - we're going to need to knock out an explanation asap ... ...




Approximately 11% of children 4-17 years of age (6.4 million) have been diagnosed with ADHD as of 2011.



You know - much suffering if we don't reach a conclusion.

Conclusion
ADHD is simply an inherited (informational) sensitivity which is not a problem unless exposed to insensitivity; levels of sensitivity described in parallel threads.

daveddd
11-08-14, 11:08 AM
yea, most of the science behind the development of self regulation is pretty clear

sensitivity/intensity of emotion (or at the time bodily sensations) puts a large strain on the caregivers ability to internalize the childs emotion and return it regulated

Lunacie
11-08-14, 11:13 AM
maybe, but possibly not

something that makes achieving self regulation extremely difficulty , isn't the same to me as not being biologically able to self regulate

the "basically" point is fine for some

but not for discovering the true etiology of a syndrome

... biologically impaired (limited), but not biologically unable ...

Someone who is born with color blindness can still see,
but their vision is impaired because they can't distinguish colors.

daveddd
11-08-14, 11:21 AM
... biologically impaired (limited), but not biologically unable ...

Someone who is born with color blindness can still see,
but their vision is impaired because they can't distinguish colors.

that hasn't been proven or even really mentioned as a theory very often

daveddd
11-08-14, 11:43 AM
your real smart, so I'm sure its a possibility

i just prefer proof

Lunacie
11-08-14, 11:54 AM
Sorry, I got lost. What point are you wanting proof for?

daveddd
11-08-14, 12:49 PM
not important

I'm just thinking too much again

so what can be done early to help a hypersensitive infant develop healthy self regulation

SB_UK
11-08-14, 12:53 PM
not important

I'm just thinking too much again

so what can be done early to help a hypersensitive infant develop healthy self regulation

-- live a happy life.

[a life without compulsion in which systematizing/rational moral, empathizing/communicative and sensory/an appreciation of 'beauty' ... quality is built]

Lunacie
11-08-14, 12:57 PM
not important

I'm just thinking too much again

so what can be done early to help a hypersensitive infant develop healthy self regulation

I wish I knew.

If I'd known, I'd have helped my oldest granddaughter when she was small.
She was terribly impulsive, distracted, frustrated, talkative, unmoderated -
all the classic signs were there but we didn't know anything about ADHD then.

SB_UK
11-08-14, 12:59 PM
The most important thing is to not contravene those 3 levels of quality eg
- encourage irrational from the perspective of moral behaviours [systematizing level contravention]
- encourage behaviours which lead to empathy distress ie when you feel the pain of someone you beat - how can one aspire to beating people ? [empathizing level contravention]
- encourage immersion in sensory brutal experiences eg fireworks, pop music [sensory level contravention]

Lunacie
11-08-14, 01:05 PM
The most important thing is to not contravene those 3 levels of quality eg
- encourage irrational from the perspective of moral behaviours [systematizing level contravention]
- encourage behaviours which lead to empathy distress ie when you feel the pain of someone you beat - how can one aspire to beating people ? [empathizing level contravention]
- encourage immersion in sensory brutal experiences eg fireworks, pop music [sensory level contravention]

If I understand what those actually are, I believe I did do the first two with my own daughter and with my grandchildren.

However, I have severe sensory disorder and cannot tolerate loud music, bright or flashing light,
and other things, so could not immerse myself along with them in those things.

SB_UK
11-08-14, 01:14 PM
If I understand what those actually are, I believe I did do the first two with my own daughter and with my grandchildren.

However, I have severe sensory disorder and cannot tolerate loud music, bright or flashing light,
and other things, so could not immerse myself along with them in those things.

Society does it - there's nothing anybody can do without changing society to eliminate child's immersion in all three.

I feel bad when I engage in all 3 of the above -
where riding roughshod over an individual's feelings as a boss, aspiring to make as much money of some environmentally disruptive organization as a boss and drowning in sensory brutal sexual images (the standard pop musician these days), drugged foods (takeaways which activate the opioid system) <- well that's the model of existence which society sells.

You can't shield your children from it - it's a societal level malaise.

-*-

To put is simply it's being placed in a room with deafening klaxxons going off intermittently - it's chronically distressful - deeply stressful ... ... and sadly it doesn't matter whether we're more sensitive (in a good way) - the sensitivity makes us break much more easily than the individual who can barely hear.

That's the problem with having 'ears that hear, eyes that see' ... ... what we hear and see is not pleasant.

SB_UK
11-08-14, 01:23 PM
Let's be even more simple ... ...

I feel pain when I see human beings do something really immoral (ie anything to do with the pursuit of money).
I feel pain when I see human beings behave badly to other human beings and see the pain in those that suffer.
I feel pain when I watch a horror movie.

The 3 levels of sensitivity - irrational from the perspective of morality, empathizing and sensory.

Systematizing-Empathizing and Sensory sensitivity.

-*-

ADHD is simply sensitivity sensitized in a brutal societal structure of individuals who become brutal through alliance to systems which contravene what I'm calling quality in those 3 systems.

SB_UK
11-08-14, 01:36 PM
I feel pain when I see human beings do something really immoral (ie anything to do with the pursuit of money).
I feel pain when I see human beings behave badly to other human beings and see the pain in those that suffer.
I feel pain when I watch a horror movie.


Now I know ever such a large number of people who're exactly like that ^^^ and who'd consider people like I'm describing weak.

And that's what we're up against.

People (brutal quality) will by virtue of their brutal character be at the helm of society - will be steering society ... ...

We're (ie ADDers) in REAL trouble - because the insensitive will not be able to understand any of what I've described or to re-iterate ... ...

this is their model of perfection ->
Human beings doing something really immoral (ie anything to do with the pursuit of money) <- IN OUR CURRENT WORLD THE MORE RISKY/CRIMINAL THE MORE THAT THERE'S TO BE GAINED
Human beings behaving badly to other human beings and see the pain in those that suffer <- THE BOSS LOVES TO DELEGATE SUFFERING AND TO SEE THEIR SLAVES LICK THEIR SHOES LIKE OBEDIENT LITTLE PUPPIES
Watch a horror movie <- PEOPLE SEEM TO LOVE VIOLENT COMPETITIVE BOUTS EG CAGE FIGHTING AND TO LIKE IT/ENGAGE IN IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A BADGE OF HONOUR

<- and our model of Hell

SB_UK
11-08-14, 01:38 PM
Simplest possible statement -

ADHD is sensitivity sensitized in a brutal landscape.

There's nothing wrong (innate) with us.
There's everything wrong with our brutal environment.

It doesn't make sense.
It's immoral.
And it's of very low quality.

The three systems which combine to generate mind -> systematizing + empathizing + sensory <- specialize in all three and you're balanced.

Lunacie
11-08-14, 02:34 PM
I feel pain when I see human beings do something really immoral (ie anything to do with the pursuit of money).
I feel pain when I see human beings behave badly to other human beings and see the pain in those that suffer.
I feel pain when I watch a horror movie.



Society hasn't really changed in the last few thousand years - since the time of the Greek philosophers anyway.

So if this is truly the reason we have more trouble getting along in the world, then there's not much hope, is there?

SB_UK
11-08-14, 02:55 PM
Society hasn't really changed in the last few thousand years - since the time of the Greek philosophers anyway.

So if this is truly the reason we have more trouble getting along in the world, then there's not much hope, is there?

You can hardly move for people.
Competition for resources has become severe.

We need to choose whether to collaborate or compete in life.

http://www.ldolphin.org/poprecent.gif

SB_UK
11-08-14, 02:58 PM
My reward system prevents me from competing against any other person - I receive no reward from beating anybody at anything.

That's a big deal.

Some place there's a quote from Dawkins which states that all that's required is actual/perceived shortage of survival essentials for evolution to be driven -

we're what pops out.

Just a population which is forced social since there's no reward from the anti-social pursuits which characterizes what is aspired to in this society.

SB_UK
11-08-14, 03:07 PM
Re: 'Thought' is an energy form.
sunAn enigmatic black pigment shouldn't exist in the centre of the brain.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1519120&postcount=41

MORE INFO ^^^^

SB_UK
11-08-14, 03:41 PM
I'm going to be really categorical here.

ADDer = Homo neosapiens sapienses - the particular sensitivity relates to the 3 systems which collaborate to give mind - we represent a post-mind emergent species which're and simply enforced social at the reward system (by losing a reward system which can be activated by anti-social pursuits) - reward system Systematizing, Empathizing and Sensory levels - no model for competition (= another person losing and suffering) is supported.

mildadhd
11-08-14, 10:48 PM
..I think a nurturing, healthy and supportive childhood can minimize the
impairments of having ADHD - but I don't believe they can prevent ADHD.


What if we minimize the environmental conditions that maximize genetic expression?




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Lunacie
11-08-14, 10:55 PM
What if we minimize the environmental conditions that maximize genetic expression?




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Couldn't hurt - when there is something to tell us for sure what those conditions are.

mildadhd
11-09-14, 12:10 AM
Couldn't hurt - when there is something to tell us for sure what those conditions are.

Sure.




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mildadhd
11-09-14, 12:19 AM
Focusing on ADHD

-What factors maximize the development of the mesocorticolimbic projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways)?

-What factors minimize the development of the mesocorticolimbic projection?






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mildadhd
11-09-14, 03:23 AM
so how to teach the kids with irritable temperament (hypersensitive) self regulation?


Easy, don't irritate the kids with the hyperreactive hypersensitive emotional, homeostatic, sensory feelings.




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mildadhd
11-09-14, 03:37 AM
Focusing on before ADHD

-What factors maximize the development of the mesocorticolimbic projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways)?

-What factors minimize the development of the mesocorticolimbic projection?


Correction in green

Focusing on development before ADHD impairment occurs



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SB_UK
11-09-14, 05:47 AM
Easy, don't irritate the kids with the hyperreactive hypersensitive emotional, homeostatic, sensory feelings.




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But that's all there is to it.

SB_UK
11-09-14, 08:59 AM
I think that it's established that there's a 3/4 learning delay from KD ... ... imagine putting a 6 year old in a class with a 9 year old.

It's a level of stress that won't be recovered from.

One way street straight to delinquency, drugs, crime ... ...

but they've actually the capacity to be better - just the education/work is too inflexible to handle learning delays.

daveddd
11-09-14, 09:31 AM
Easy, don't irritate the kids with the hyperreactive hypersensitive emotional, homeostatic, sensory feelings.




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I'm not sure its that easy


unless putting the kid in a bubble maybe?

attunment training for hypersensitive kids?

early age mentalizing therapy, with play therapy ?

daveddd
11-09-14, 09:36 AM
early detection with ink blots?


http://books.google.com/books?id=_BjCdQ-NiYIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=adhd+rorschach&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mG1fVLKFD4mryAS4koKQCg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=adhd%20rorschach&f=false

Lunacie
11-09-14, 11:16 AM
Correction in green

Focusing on development before ADHD impairment occurs



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If someone has ADHD, then the impairment occurs from the very beginning,
although it may not be apparent until the child starts school, or leaves the
supportive structure of home.

If the home structure is not supportive, then the impairments are likely to be
more visible from an early age.

I've seen so many posts from parents who say the impairments were apparent
to them when their children were toddlers. Looking back, we noticed the first
signs of ADHD in my granddaughter when she began walking - at 7 months.
But we didn't realize they were symptoms of a disorder, we just thought she
was "a high maintenance child."

daveddd
11-09-14, 11:35 AM
If someone has ADHD, then the impairment occurs from the very beginning,
although it may not be apparent until the child starts school, or leaves the
supportive structure of home.

If the home structure is not supportive, then the impairments are likely to be
more visible from an early age.

I've seen so many posts from parents who say the impairments were apparent
to them when their children were toddlers. Looking back, we noticed the first
signs of ADHD in my granddaughter when she began walking - at 7 months.
But we didn't realize they were symptoms of a disorder, we just thought she
was "a high maintenance child."

some coordination and temperamental impairments are likely there from the beginning

periph may have been referring to actually adhd (executive function impairments)

those won't be there from the beginning

executive functions are something that develop throughout childhood, nobody is born with them

so he has a good point

SB_UK
11-09-14, 01:12 PM
Something very different from birth - my wife cried many times over thinking child was retarded - as opposed to delayed.

Disorder in competitive environment with children of similar age.

Really I've a 9 year old that's behaving like a 5 year old - he's going to be annhilated at school - kids are vicious.

So bad that I'm enrolling in an off-grid community project so he'll be able to survive without schooling (money).

Despite all we know about dev delay - absolutely nothing in establishment education to handle different dev trajectory - he will be lost from society unless we vacate society - anway meeting next Saturday.

No time to wait for medicine / educational establishments - none interested in people - time to help establishment orgs to burn.

Economic collapse.

Lunacie
11-09-14, 07:13 PM
some coordination and temperamental impairments are likely there from the beginning

periph may have been referring to actually adhd (executive function impairments)

those won't be there from the beginning

executive functions are something that develop throughout childhood, nobody is born with them

so he has a good point

I agree that the symptoms may not become apparent until the child starts school,
although some parents are very much aware that their child is not typical as an infant or a toddler.


My thinking is that the underlying problem that prevents typical development is there from birth.

daveddd
11-09-14, 07:32 PM
I agree that the symptoms may not become apparent until the child starts school,
although some parents are very much aware that their child is not typical as an infant or a toddler.


My thinking is that the underlying problem that prevents typical development is there from birth.

i agree

i think there may be ways in aiding the kids in developing EFs though

like stuff they're doing with autism

daveddd
11-09-14, 07:37 PM
a lot of the issues they are fixing with early intervention in autism is executive function related

i believe add and autism may have similar problems that predispose to the syndromes (diathesis)

daveddd
11-09-14, 07:39 PM
Shared familial transmission of autism spectrum and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorders.
Musser ED1, Hawkey E, Kachan-Liu SS, Lees P, Roullet JB, Goddard K, Steiner RD, Nigg JT.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
To determine whether familial transmission is shared between autism spectrum disorders and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, we assessed the prevalence, rates of comorbidity, and familial transmission of both disorders in a large population-based sample of children during a recent 7 year period.
METHODS:
Study participants included all children born to parents with the Kaiser Permanente Northwest (KPNW) Health Plan between 1 January 1998 and 31 December 2004 (n = 35,073). Children and mothers with physician-identified autism spectrum disorders (ASD) and/or attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) were identified via electronic medical records maintained for all KPNW members.
RESULTS:
Among children aged 6-12 years, prevalence was 2.0% for ADHD and 0.8% for ASD; within those groups, 0.2% of the full sample (19% of the ASD sample and 9.6% of the ADHD sample) had co-occurring ASD and ADHD, when all children were included. When mothers had a diagnosis of ADHD, first born offspring were at 6-fold risk of ADHD alone (OR = 5.02, p < .0001) and at 2.5-fold risk of ASD alone (OR = 2.52, p < .01). Results were not accounted for by maternal age, child gestational age, child gender, and child race.



CONCLUSIONS:
Autism spectrum disorders shares familial transmission with ADHD. ADHD and ASD have a partially overlapping diathesis.



© 2014 The Authors. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry. © 2014 Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health.
KEYWORDS:
Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder; autism spectrum disorder; shared familial transmission

mildadhd
11-09-14, 08:07 PM
Maybe it would be easier if i started a separate thread focusing on essential factors that are normally required to promote young brain development before the age of 4, then consider and compare with another thread, focusing on when the same essential factors required are lacking?





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mildadhd
11-09-14, 09:09 PM
Lunacie

Not all people with ADHD carry any known genetic variants.

And there are also people who carry known genetic variants, that don't have ADHD.

I am not disputing that genetic factors are involved in brain development, but I am focusing on how genes variants can be possibly turned on and off by certain conditions in the environment.


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Lunacie
11-09-14, 09:46 PM
Lunacie

Not all people with ADHD carry any known genetic variants.

And there are also people who carry known genetic variants, that don't have ADHD.

I am not disputing that genetic factors are involved in brain development, but I am focusing on how genes variants can be possibly turned on and off by certain conditions in the environment.


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I would hazard a guess that those who have ADHD but have no known genetics for ADHD
have been misdiagnosed and actually have something else (thyroid, depression, bipolar, allergies, etc.)

Perhaps those with the genetics but not the impairments are simply carriers?

mildadhd
11-09-14, 10:12 PM
I would hazard a guess that those who have ADHD but have no known genetics for ADHD
have been misdiagnosed and actually have something else (thyroid, depression, bipolar, allergies, etc.)

Perhaps those with the genetics but not the impairments are simply carriers?



Do you think emotional distresses could be some of the factors determining which genetic variants are expressed?


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mildadhd
11-09-14, 11:21 PM
The right orbito frontal cortex is definitely not the only area of the brain involved in ADHD.

But I think it is important to recognize dopaminergic pathway originates in the brain stem area and branches all the way to and connecting with right orbits frontal cortex, and the right orbits frontal cortex is about 5% smaller than average in people with ADHD.

How does genes interrupt development of only about 5%, of the right orbits frontal cortex?

I think a Genetic Hypersensitivity resulting in a possible hyperreaction to threatening emotional environment (perceived or real) interfers with slightly with the development of the dopaminergic pathway and the right orbits frontal cortex, is the most affected.


P

Lunacie
11-10-14, 12:38 AM
Do you think emotional distresses could be some of the factors determining which genetic variants are expressed?


P

No. I think distress can make impairments worse, but I don't think it "turns them on."

That's what I think. Others may think something different.
As far as I know, there isn't any proof of either theory yet.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 10:09 AM
I can't work out what's being said here.

Example - a hypothetical situation where conception occurs and in 9 months there will be a child that will be diagnosed as ADHD at 10 years of age.
Is the idea that if we could re-stage those 5 years and 9 months giving the foetus/child a different environment (ANY different environment) - that that child would not have ADHD if the tests were run at eg 10 years of age ... where the 2 children at age 5 are then both subject to severe distress ie severe competition, bullying, lack of food.

-*-

I'm really only looking at ADDer as a novel type characterized by sensitivity - that the sensitivity is a positiviely selected characteristic
- and that there's nothing that can be done to stop child that will become ADHD - becoming severe ADHD given distressful environment at some point in their life.

-*-

Simple example - I can't stand loud noises.

I'm fine in the quiet.
I'm in pain in the noise.

If I'm in the quiet for the first 5 years, I still feel pain when I'm in a noisy environment after that.

However - I think that if I'm in noise for the first 5 years - that I'll be insane by the time that I'm 5 years old.

I'm not understanding something ... ... ... I can get it - if my example above could be taken and an answer provided.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 10:35 AM
I think that what's being said is that something is switched before we're 5 which determines whether or not we will ever carry the ADDer diagnosis.

I think that at conception we're characterized as on a developmental trajectory which will label us as sensitive

- and will only label us as ADHD is we're exposed to 'distress'.

What is distress ?
It's easier to suggest that in a world without money and with community, where people only work for reflected reward ie for the group - that we'll have no distress.

Epidemiology defines distress - but I really can't label every heavy metal that corporations throw out for money, or every processed food which corporations throw out for money, every competitive sports event which kids are made to be bad for when they lose, every qualification which kids are required to make the grade or be tossed on the rubbish heap, every workplace where noting moral is performed (all of them) ... ...

I can't define distress because there are so many factors which cause distress.

But the commonality is that there's somebody, team, corporation making money at the heart of all schemes whch produce some factor be it pollutant, toxic food stuff or shiny academic certificate ... ... ... which gives rise to human distress.

Therefore no need to individually delineate - to difficult ... epidemiology can't get the numbers up - too many confounding variables

- simply:
to suggest that in a world without money and with community, where people only work for reflected reward ie for the group

It's the same as this world except you're not paid to do anything - you do something if you find it rewarding.

mildadhd
11-10-14, 11:45 AM
What do we know about ADHD?

We know that emotional distress makes ADHD worse.

Lessen emotional distress, minimize impairment, especially before the age of 4 when mechanisms involved in ADHD are developing for the first time.








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mildadhd
11-10-14, 12:36 PM
What makes before the age of 4* , different than life after the age of 4*

Before the age of 4*

-mechanisms are developing for the first time.
-rate of development is much more
-amount of development is much more
-normal infant sensitivity to environment is much more



After the age of 4*

-Rate of development declines and is much less
-amount of development declines and is much less
-normal infant sensitivity to environment declines and is much less




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SB_UK
11-10-14, 02:58 PM
Is there a Gabor Mate paragraph which makes that point ? just trying to work out where the idea comes from.

I still can't get the idea of sensitivity as defined from conception.
ADHD disorder as distress to newfound sensitivity.
Sensitivity at 3 levels - irrational to species wellbeing, empathic connection to others, sensory

SB_UK
11-10-14, 03:02 PM
How can we derive the conclusion that adverse conditions <4 are essential in the development of disorder component of ADHD later in life.

I can't yet get to that conclusion.

It could well be right - I just don't know how to get to that conclusion.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 03:13 PM
Lessen emotional distress, minimize impairment, especially before the age of 4 when mechanisms involved in ADHD are developing for the first time.
P

I can't separate: Lessen emotional distress, minimize impairment, especially before the age of 4.

from

Lessen emotional distress, minimize impairment.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 03:35 PM
I'm suggesting that the ADDer is a new type and is born with a sensitivity which matches with the idea of 'completion of mind' ie that what the mind is - is the experiential effect of the metalevel constructs above cerebral cortex sensory, motor and interneuronal structures - of sensory quality defined, rational mind defined and empathy defined (respectively).

I'm very much looking at a defined sensitivity in the ADDer - and the ADDer representing a post-modern man type which is defined by a reward system which is floated as above ie through quality of systematizing, empathizing and sensory experience.

I'm characterizing ADDer as sensitive - as distressed when our core reward systems are challenged.

-*-

Trying here - how do we get distress pre-4 as of crucial importance to ADHD ?

.........................Sensory sensitivity
Systematizing sensitivity / |
Systematizing sensitivity / | \ Empathizing sensitivity

That's the post-mind pattern.

Why would distress <4 be any more significant than distress >4 ?

SB_UK
11-10-14, 03:37 PM
I'm so heavily balanced >4 ie the 3 factors I'm mentioning are all >4 yrs of age.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 03:38 PM
The thing is - is that "I" is born at 4 years of age.
There's no 'I' until language appears - at which point 'I' is born.

So - we are (in that sense) born at 4 years of age - you know - that's when memories begin -
when we are within the realm of mind - which characterizes man.

mildadhd
11-10-14, 03:58 PM
Is there a Gabor Mate paragraph which makes that point ? just trying to work out where the idea comes from.

I still can't get the idea of sensitivity as defined from conception.
ADHD disorder as distress to newfound sensitivity.
Sensitivity at 3 levels - irrational to species wellbeing, empathic connection to others, sensory


When I refer to sensitivity before conception, I am focusing on the possibility of epigenetic inheritance, emotionally distressful family experiences (back up to 5 generations) that may make emotionally hyperreactive hypersensitive predisposition and expression more likely. (as one of many possible factors that may be involved)


Let me review some information and get back to you.

(I first read about the example research information below in Dr Mate's book, "In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts".



----*----


Transgenerational Effects of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder in Babies of Mothers Exposed to the World Trade Center Attacks during Pregnancy
(http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2005-0550)




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mildadhd
11-10-14, 04:07 PM
Reading Dr.Mate's books introduced to lots of the top great researchers like Dr.Bruce Perry. (see example below)


(p 87)
4. Windows of opportunity/windows of vulnerability:

The sequential development of the brain and the activity-dependence of many key aspects of neurodevelopment suggest that there must be times during development when a given developing neural system is more sensitive to experience than others.

In healthy development, that sensitivity allows the brain to rapidly and efficiently organize in response to the unique demands of a given environment to express from its broad genetic potential those characteristics which best fit that child’s world. (Dr.Bruce Perry)


(Recommend reading whole link).


Childhood Experience and the Expression of Genetic Potential: What Childhood Neglect Tells Us About Nature and Nurture (http://centerforchildwelfare2.fmhi.usf.edu/kb/chronicneglect/childexperience.pdf)



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mildadhd
11-10-14, 04:25 PM
SB_UK

Sorry,

I missed a bunch of your posts.

Let me reread and reply



P

Lunacie
11-10-14, 04:33 PM
The thing is - is that "I" is born at 4 years of age.
There's no 'I' until language appears - at which point 'I' is born.

So - we are (in that sense) born at 4 years of age - you know - that's when memories begin -
when we are within the realm of mind - which characterizes man.

Are you saying kids don't talk until they're 4? :scratch:

The ability to remember people and things increases dramatically in babies between 8 and 12 months of age.
That's short-term memory, the kind that loses a phone number in a few minutes.

Toddlers between 17 and 24 months have shown they hold memories from events 4 months prior.
So by the age of 2 years most toddlers have developed long-term memory.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/11.07/01-memory.html

SB_UK
11-10-14, 04:35 PM
When I refer to sensitivity before conception, I am focusing on the possibility of epigenetic inheritance, emotionally distressful family experiences (back up to 5 generations) that may make emotionally hyperreactive hypersensitive predisposition and expression more likely. (as one of many possible factors that may be involved)


Let me review some information and get back to you.

(I first read about the example research information below in Dr Mate's book, "In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts".



----*----


Transgenerational Effects of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder in Babies of Mothers Exposed to the World Trade Center Attacks during Pregnancy
(http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2005-0550)




P

I completely agree with the idea of genomic memory which extends several generations up from the child - I think we've looked at grandparent - grandchild (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v10/n11/full/5200901a.html) before - but maybe it extends further.

If I had to put the idea into words it's a stress-borne epigenetic effect which pares back growth in order to favour survival at some point in development ie growth completely ablated - and that the systems which happen to be shut down at the epigenetic level - repeat several generations down the line.

I have had a child who has suffered from extreme alopecia (mentioned to Barliman) at precisely the time that his grandfather nearly died.

-*-

I'm not going to try and validate that idea - but it's not too controversial - stress based elimination of growth to conserve energy by gene/histone modification and inheritance of these epigenetic marks as (one would think) favouring survival of offspring ... ... should the adverse events repeat.

So - it's a selection based on 'hardship' - that which does not kill you makes you stronger.

I think though that the method is not there to handle near death extremely distressful events - more difficult times ie what we'll observe (over time) will be the lowest energy requiring organism - with 'food' availability being the only real thing that determines life and death for animals -
we can (after all) just move to the sun and live in a wooden shack.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 04:40 PM
Are you saying kids don't talk until they're 4? :scratch:

The ability to remember people and things increases dramatically in babies between 8 and 12 months of age.
That's short-term memory, the kind that loses a phone number in a few minutes.

Toddlers between 17 and 24 months have shown they hold memories from events 4 months prior.
So by the age of 2 years most toddlers have developed long-term memory.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/11.07/01-memory.html

Just asked my 11 year old - no memories before 4 years old.
All just personal experience.

-*-

I have no memories prior to 4 years also ... ...

By memories - I mean sequences rather than flashbulb memories ie a movie rather than a photograph.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 04:45 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-concept

Researchers debate over when self-concept development begins
... by approximately age 3.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-concept#cite_note-tiedmann2000-23) Others suggest that self-concept develops later, around age 7 or 8

I'm using I to mean self concept.

mildadhd
11-10-14, 04:54 PM
Learning begins at birth.(or before?)

implicit memories (preverbal)

explicit memories (verbal)




P

SB_UK
11-10-14, 04:57 PM
Reading Dr.Mate's books introduced to lots of the top great researchers like Dr.Bruce Perry. (see example below)





(Recommend reading whole link).


Childhood Experience and the Expression of Genetic Potential: What Childhood Neglect Tells Us About Nature and Nurture (http://centerforchildwelfare2.fmhi.usf.edu/kb/chronicneglect/childexperience.pdf)



P


The whole link is going to take some time ... ... doing it now -
but the abstract seems to suggest (which I agree with) that absence of distress is required for proper human development - and absolutely that absence of distress requires stable attachment/attunement

- and we've established that.

It's very likely that the ADDer is more sensitive to disruption following failed attachment/attunement - given the general increased sensitivity to attachment (which probably connects to the empathy sensitivity I'm trying to describe) ... ...

am I on the right tracks ?

Back to Perry !!

Abstracts and Conclusions are so much quicker to read :rolleyes:

Lunacie
11-10-14, 05:04 PM
Just asked my 11 year old - no memories before 4 years old.
All just personal experience.

-*-

I have no memories prior to 4 years also ... ...

By memories - I mean sequences rather than flashbulb memories ie a movie rather than a photograph.

But I do have a few memories from before age 4.

I remember falling off the back porch and hitting around my eye, developing a cyst there,
going to the hospital, being put to sleep to have it removed, and being in a recovery room
afterwards at the age of 3.

I remember visiting my great-grandmother who died when I was just 4.

I remember sitting on the floor after dinner just a couple of feet from the tv ,watching with my dad.

I remember mom and I walking my brother to kindergarten, he was 2 years ahead of me,
so he was 4 and I was just 2.

I remember going to work with my mom in the basement of the hotel where she ironed sheets,
before I start kindergarten at age 4.

mildadhd
11-11-14, 12:43 AM
Just asked my 11 year old - no memories before 4 years old.
All just personal experience.

-*-

I have no memories prior to 4 years also ... ...

By memories - I mean sequences rather than flashbulb memories ie a movie rather than a photograph.


SB_UK's son was also correct.

I think it would help if we where take some time to discuss the difference between implicit memory and explicit memory.


SB_UK asked his 11 year old son a question verbally, "when do you first remembered having memories son?" (paraphrasing)

And SB_UK's son gave a very accurate verbal response, to a verbal question.


Explicit memories are memories of experiences, occurring after our BrainMind's ability to verbally communicate about the age of 4*. (*give or take)


When SB_UK asked his 11 year old son a question verbally, he was asking his son about explicit memories which normally occur in all humans around the age of 4*.


Implicit memories are memories of experiences , occurring before the age of 4*, before our BrainMind's ability to verbally communicate.


There is lots more I would like to discuss about he difference between implicit and explicit, but I feel/think it is extremely important and easier to understand this thread better if we discuss the difference between implicit consciousness and explicit consciousness more.

Thoughts so far? (Discussion appreciated)



P

mildadhd
11-11-14, 04:21 PM
As the Harvard psychiatrist Judith Lewis Herman has pointed out, "To some degree everyone is a prisoner of the past". (*1)

Without knowing it, we often relive the past.

What we take for present-day reality represents, in many situations, reactivated early memories stored in the implicit memory system, a vast and infallibly accurate record of past experiences.

Implicit memory happens, according to the psychologist and memory researcher Daniel Schacter, "when people are influenced by a past experience without any awareness that they are remembering." (*2)

Unconscious emotions and conscious feelings, rapid shifts in mood and dramatic physiological changes in the body can occur under the impact of implicit memory. (Dr.Mate)


"Memories Are Made Of This" (The ADD Adult)
(http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1693889&postcount=1)


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InvitroCanibal
11-16-14, 09:41 PM
My earliest memories where I asked questions about who I was, where I was, and whether god existed, were age 4. I've read that babies dont really form conciousness until around 1 or 2 and don't form memories until about 3. Those are rough estimates though. The main thing is that when we are born, we aren't really present, most things a baby does is reflexive to its environment. It smiles often out of instinct and operates on the very lowest regions of proccessing, food, sleep, safety.

namazu
11-16-14, 09:51 PM
Peripheral, what you quoted from Mate
suggests that implicit memories are
memories we're not consciously aware we're accessing
when we react to situations.

I'm wondering if implicit memories could form from birth (or even before)
and continue to form throughout life,
and explicit memories could begin to form sometime in childhood (maybe age 4-ish, but varying with the person)
and also continue to form throughout life.

?

Lunacie
11-16-14, 11:03 PM
Peripheral, what you quoted from Mate
suggests that implicit memories are
memories we're not consciously aware we're accessing
when we react to situations.

I'm wondering if implicit memories could form from birth (or even before)
and continue to form throughout life,
and explicit memories could begin to form sometime in childhood (maybe age 4-ish, but varying with the person)
and also continue to form throughout life.

?

That's pretty much what I got from it.

SB_UK
11-17-14, 08:44 AM
All really interesting -

in meadd's ADD = mind with a mind of its own

? implicit = higher (in control) mind in ADD
? explicit = lower mind = ego = mind we're trying to jettison ie model of individual as disconnected from reality

SB_UK
11-17-14, 08:46 AM
Mentioned many times over - when I do maths, computing
- many things really -

I don't know how I do them.

We sideways shift into a frame of mind which just solves a problem.

Last computing project - was asked how I did it ?
ABSOLUTELY no idea - but it was easy ... ...

as if we've 2 minds.

SB_UK
11-17-14, 11:12 AM
Three unrelated studies from March of 2014 offer new clues to the inner workings of two very different cognitive systems.

EXCEEDINGLY interesting.

I'm wholly 'implicit' biased (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201403/new-clues-the-inner-workings-the-unconscious-mind).

SB_UK
11-17-14, 11:14 AM
Last computing project - was asked how I did it ?
ABSOLUTELY no idea - but it was easy ... ...

as if we've 2 minds.

Brillian article ^^^ (psychology today)

On the flip side, explicit learning requires the conscious, intellectual grasp of specific knowledge or procedures that you could memorize and articulate. So - wholly implicit oriented.

With a dislike for explicit learning - as though I want to dump working memory and 'perform' in a daydream like automatic state
- where *yes* sophisticated tasks can be undertaken ... ... but they have to be undertaken in daydream state.

When in that state - and disturbed - one demonstrates the most EXAGGERATED startle response.

It's horrible, disorienting ... ...

Induced "Out-of-Body" States Disrupt Formation of Explicit MemoriesExactly - it feels (dissociation of daydreaming) as though we're explicit memory resistant (deflective).

Impressive stuff - you're bang up to date with 2014 references ... ...

During the experience of being outside one's body, this memory storage process is disturbed, whereupon the brain creates fragmentary memories… or no conscious memories at all.

presented a split-brain model that refers to the unconscious ‘non-thinking’ cerebellum as the seat of implicit memory and the cerebrum as the seat of explicit learning and memory.
Something very important here.

Cerebrum [End of mind] -> Cerebellum [sensory patterns]

-*-

Definitely - the shift from explicit -> implicit cognitive structures, from cerebrum -> cerebellum holds the key to unlocking ADHD.

SB_UK
11-17-14, 12:14 PM
^^^ Yes - wholly implicit with a distaste for explicit material.

mildadhd
11-17-14, 04:00 PM
All really interesting -

in meadd's ADD = mind with a mind of its own

? implicit = higher (in control) mind in ADD
? explicit = lower mind = ego = mind we're trying to jettison ie model of individual as disconnected from reality

Thanks SB and Mead

A implicit mind, within a explicit mind.



implicit (preverbal experiences) = foundation of mind (more basic lower center core, inner rings, stump, root base of the tree)

explicit (verbal experiences) = completion of mind (more complex higher outer bark, outer outer rings, branches, leaves, fruit, of the tree)



Experience = Mind (subjective)

Brian and bodily affects = Biology (common)


Implicit mind = affective experiences .

Explicit mind = cognitive experiences.


85% of the implicit BrainMind (preverbal experience) develops before the age of 4


15% of the explicit MindBrain (verbal experience) develops after the age 4


Notice the difference in the rate and length of implicit critical period of development before the age of 4, and the rate and length of the explicit critical period of development after the age of 4.


There is a natural dramatic decline in the rate of implicit development about the age of 4 in all people.


side note: interestingly, if we consider a 25% "delay", it may be possible the decline in the rate of implicit development may occur more between the age of 4-7 ? (guessing)





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SB_UK
11-17-14, 04:39 PM
http://realhomegarden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/garden-of-eden-cartoon-for-kids-utqxh9je.jpg

Age 4 ?

Implicit -> Explicit

To remain in implicit and not to have any relationship with explicit ?

SB_UK
11-17-14, 04:45 PM
Knowledge has an entirely false OVERLY elevated opinion of itself.

Holes in mind
Incompletion in mind
Holes in morality
Tree of knowledge of good and evil

-- the mind when incomplete - is synonymous with evil.

Born into evil ?
An inconvenient truth.

Close off the loop hole.
Social species formation.

An entirely [social] different reward system.

mildadhd
11-17-14, 05:30 PM
Peripheral, what you quoted from Mate
suggests that implicit memories are
memories we're not consciously aware we're accessing
when we react to situations.

I'm wondering if implicit memories could form from birth (or even before)
and continue to form throughout life,
and explicit memories could begin to form sometime in childhood (maybe age 4-ish, but varying with the person)
and also continue to form throughout life.

?

That's pretty much what I got from it.


Thanks Namazu and Lunacie


I appreciate the discussion.

I think some explicit and explicit development occurs throughout life, before and after the age of 4.

Some of the major differences, are in the rates of development, in amount of development, during different stages of life, are the mechanisms already established or more sensitive to environment influences while developing for the first time, etc..


The critical sensitive period of implicit (preverbal) development, before the age of 4.

The critical sensitive period of explicit (verbal) development, after the age of 4-18.


Explicit development appears to develop on top of implicit development.


It would be good if I learned more about both implict and explicit critical sensitive periods of development, with biological mechanisms involved in ADHD.

And get back to you in the near future.




P

mildadhd
11-17-14, 06:33 PM
My earliest memories where I asked questions about who I was, where I was, and whether god existed, were age 4. I've read that babies dont really form conciousness until around 1 or 2 and don't form memories until about 3. Those are rough estimates though..

I would agree with explicit memory estimates.

The decline in emotional self regulation first beings to occur about the age of 1 or 2, making it possible that some short term explicit memories would be remembered around those ages.

I am using before the age of 4*, as a guideline between the much shorter critical sensitive period of implicit development and the much longer critical senstive period of explicit development.

..The main thing is that when we are born, we aren't really present, most things a baby does is reflexive to its environment. It smiles often out of instinct and operates on the very lowest regions of proccessing, food, sleep, safety.

We are not cognitively present, but we are emotionally present at birth

If I first consider how the brain matures in its natural order from the ground up, preverbal skills develop before verbal skills.

Affective-emotional consciousness precedes cognitive consciousness.

Verbal consciousness is built upon preverbal consciousness.


ADD is not a problem of knowing, it is a problem of doing. (paraphrasing Dr.Barkley)


Knowing is cognition, "knowing" is not the primary problem.

Doing is emotion, "doing" is the primary problem.


Tertiary (blue), awareness and regulation are conscious with experience

Secondary (green), learning and memories are mostly subconscious with experience

Primary (red)feelings are conscious at birth with emotional experience and remain the core of secondary and tertiary experiences.


Consider the chart below from the ground up first, then top down.

http://emotionresearcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/three-levels.jpg

Two-Way or "Circular" Causation (http://www.ploscollections.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021236;jsessi onid=AD13490132E599FB6413BDA3EB45FF87)


I got a lot more to learn, anything not quoted are my interpretations.




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mildadhd
11-17-14, 07:12 PM
^^^ Yes - wholly implicit with a distaste for explicit material.

The way I look at it.

If higher explicit consciousness is slightly less.

Lower implicit consciousness would be slightly more.

People with ADHD feel more.



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namazu
11-17-14, 08:41 PM
The critical sensitive period of implicit (preverbal) development, before the age of 4.

The critical sensitive period of explicit (verbal) development, after the age of 4-18.


Explicit development appears to develop on top of implicit development.

I agree with the last statement you made.

I also agree that we may be more or less sensitive to certain influences at different ages / stages of development, and that early experiences are important.

What I am questioning is the idea that implicit learning is somehow not "critical" after the age of 4. It might be the case, I just don't know and I'm not sure why it should be the case. I agree that at a certain point, explicit learning is added on top of implicit learning.

But regardless of how we're learning, implicit memory continues to influence our decisions throughout life -- if SB's right, then perhaps more so for some of us than for others. His hypothesis matches my experience, though I don't know if it is really broadly generalizable to people with ADHD or other "non-typical" developers, or just a characteristic he and I seem to share.

mildadhd
11-17-14, 09:48 PM
critical period of development,
1 a specific time during which the environment has its greatest impact on an individual's development.
2 the time during gestation when critical organ systems are formed.


http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/critical+period+of+development


Hi Namazu,

All stages of development are important in healthy overall whole brain function.

The critical period is when specific areas of development are most sensitive to environmental influences.

I will look for some more examples about different critical periods of development, involving mechanisms related to ADHD.

(I need to learn to better express the information verbally, I lean toward slightly more implicit as well)







P

namazu
11-17-14, 10:07 PM
Hi Namazu,

All stages of development are important in healthy overall whole brain function.

The critical period is when specific areas of development are most sensitive to environmental influences.


Thanks.

I understand the definition of a "critical period of development".

But I don't understand what you are suggesting about implicit vs. explicit learning as it relates to ADHD.

Could you explain a bit more? (Not just quote others, but explain what you mean?)

We learn implicitly early in life, and later we learn both implicitly and explicitly.

But as I understand it, implicit learning is not necessarily entirely emotional -- people may also pick up language and other knowledge that way.
(Most kids begin to speak before age 4, for example, even without being explicitly taught grammar and vocabulary or knowing how they learned it.)

mildadhd
11-18-14, 12:24 AM
Thanks.

I understand the definition of a "critical period of development".

But I don't understand what you are suggesting about implicit vs. explicit learning as it relates to ADHD.

Could you explain a bit more? (Not just quote others, but explain what you mean?)

We learn implicitly early in life, and later we learn both implicitly and explicitly.

But as I understand it, implicit learning is not necessarily entirely emotional -- people may also pick up language and other knowledge that way.
(Most kids begin to speak before age 4, for example, even without being explicitly taught grammar and vocabulary or knowing how they learned it.)


Thanks for asking Namazu,

The SEEKING systems dopaminergic pathways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways) involved in ADHD, connect from the lower brain stem area (PAG) all the way to the orbitio frontal cortex (OFC).

Human implicit critical sensitive period of development peaks at approx age of 1 and declines dramatically after the age of 4-7.

The explicit critical sensitive period of development does not decline dramatically and extends to at least the age of 18-28.


Right hemisphere is implicit dominant

Left hemisphere is explicit dominant


The slight impairment of the right OFC associated with ADHD, is most likely to occur during the implicit critical period of development, and much less and less likely to occur as we age after the implicit critical sensitive period of development.

I am sure I am missing lots but am confident I can try to fill in the blanks over time.






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namazu
11-18-14, 01:24 AM
Human implicit critical sensitive period of development peaks at approx age of 1 and declines dramatically after the age of 4-7.

The explicit critical sensitive period of development does not decline dramatically and extends to at least the age of 18-28.

Could you explain what you mean by "implicit critical sensitive period of development" and "explicit critical sensitive period of development"?

I understand "critical sensitive period of development" and "implicit learning / memory" and "explicit learning / memory",
I'm just confused about how you're combining these different terms.

When I think of "critical sensitive period of development", I think of environmental influences (outside the person) shaping development, which I think you mentioned earlier as part of the definition.

When I think of implicit and explicit learning and memory, I think of something that's more a feature of the person and how they assimilate information, rather than something that really comes from the environment.

I mean, in some settings, explicit learning is actively encouraged, like when students are asked to read a textbook or study lists of words or memorize a violin solo.
And, yes, it would be ridiculous to ask a baby to "study" how to walk or to memorize techniques for self-regulation, since they aren't really able to engage their environments in that way
(though parents certainly do try to teach words: for example, saying to a baby, "Can you say, "Daddy"? "Da - da"?").

In other settings, implicit learning dominates -- as in natural language learning from simply hearing the language used around you (and immersion programs set up to replicate that type of language acquisition).

So there is some environmental influence there, sure, in terms of the opportunities available for learning and the ways in which people are encouraged to interact with their environments.

But since implicit learning is, as I understand it, the learning that happens when we're not consciously trying to learn something,
and implicit memory is the kind of memory that influences our thoughts and actions without us consciously trying to recall experiences,
I'm not sure how we could best use this to positively influence early development,
except to fall back on generally modeling the kinds of behavior and self-regulation we would like our children to "absorb".
(Which can be tough for those of us who, as adults, still aren't great at emotional self-regulation and other life skills.)

There is probably something to the left vs. right brain dominance you mention, though my impression is that some of the left - right brain stuff that's been repeated in popular media is an oversimplification.

What are your thoughts on how we could use our understanding of implicit and explicit learning/development (at early ages, 4 or younger, or even at older ages) to encourage positive development?

SB_UK
11-18-14, 06:39 AM
Getting confused again ... ...

- I'm trying to describe the process of making:

explicit -> implicit
as
knowledge -> understanding

When something is implicit - it can be used.

The application of knowledge arrayed as understanding.

What I cannot stand - is knowledge in the absence of understanding.

Why do we do this ?
I don't know - but everybody's doing it and so it must be best.

So - I'm trying to offer the idea that when operating on 'implicit' mode
- you can quiz me on anything I write - and I'll be able to justify my position given current understanding.

And with increased understanding - my behaviour will change accordingly.

SB_UK
11-18-14, 06:46 AM
No - that's not right.

What I'm trying to describe is learning something which then becomes effortless ie one can undertake the activity without a certain type of thought - which I think would be called the explicit mind.

So - to learn is to place information from the explicit mind into the implicit mind - and to do allows us to bypass the explicit mind.

So - let's take an example of learning a language or learning how to catch a ball.

1. Explicit training
2. Implicit learning - we write a language or catch a ball without the effort associated with the explicit mind/conscious awareness.

IE we don't think - how do I say ? 'xyz' in a foreign language after learning it -w e just do it ... ... and (see my computing/maths example)
- we don't know how we do it - we *just* do it.

Similarly - learning a ball - requires 'training' and then when we've trained we're able to catch a ball without engaging the explicit mind which requires training.

-*-

So - what this idea points at to me (have't thought about this before) is that explicit is designed to train (neural development) the implicit; and we have learnt when we demonstrate implicit application of explicit learning ... ... ie being able to speak a language or catch a ball without thinking.

The important part is - "without thinking"
- because of course we're thinking when we speak a foreign language - it just feels so effortless - that it's as though we haven't had to exert effort.

-*-

OK - explicit + effort -> implicit

Sounds right ... ... but !!!

I'm trying to explain that

knowlege which makes sense transfers from explicit -> implicit (able to use the information effortlessly)
- and that this is the point of education ie to be able to transfer not knowledge but understanding.

How do we connect up these 2 ideas ?

Explain

Well learning a foreign language isn't like science ie it doesn't make sense -
I'm describing the point as being the effortless usage of 'implicit' away from 'explicit'

- but I can't use the blanket argument that something needs to make sense before when learned - it can transfer from explicit to implicit.

Learning and then effortlessly catching a ball makes no sense.

SB_UK
11-18-14, 07:15 AM
So ... back around we come to this idea:
your mind knows your decision 5 - 7 s (http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide) before you know you know your decision.

So - the process of shifting

explicit -> implicit feels like it can be likened to the idea of 'being in the moment'

ie explicit living can't be done in the moment.

-*-

General point -
the ADDer (my own perspective) wants to live in real-time immersion
- but the explicit mind (with its fears) drags me out of implicit living.

Answer the fears of explicit mind - and we are free to live in a pleasant state of in the moment.

-*-

Thinking ... ... that ADDers are customised to living in the moment - but what drags us out - are problems which human beings create - mostly relating to access to survival essentials - and having to pay for them.

So - I'm suggesting that the ADDer prefers to live in implicit mindset - but that learning is possible as long as it's ... ... delivered in such a way that implicit mind is fed -

- trying to make the connection between standard Western learning and no transfer to implicit mind - complete loss from individual ... ... no point in ever having learnt.

However - I know that we also forget (eg languages) which have been transferred away from explicit into implicit - so ... ... still doesn't hold.

You never need to relearn how to ride a bike.

-*-

Understanding feels closer to 'having learnt to ride a bike' ... ...

SB_UK
11-18-14, 08:25 AM
Without using any of the words above.

My mind wants to be in daydream state when learning.
It wants to be in daydream state when applying.

And what brings me out of daydream state - are things like having to speak, having to listen in real time, not being able to stop a presentation and look up any words/ideas I don't understand, being forced to pay attention to something I'm not interested in ... ...

All that I'm suggesting is that there has to be an interest - and that what follows if the individual desires mastery -
- is mastery.

But the important part of all of this idea is to maintain daydream state whilst studying.

Outside of daydream state is distress.

-*-

OK - but it's easiest to forego learning and just to operate physiologically through massive amounts of exercise in the sun, fasting etc ... ...
in order to adopt the daydream state.

I know.

Perhaps this offers us a better idea of what 'end of mind' means.

It's not as if the mind is going to lead us anywhere useful.

The point in life is to be happy.

And - so ADDers have a love-hate relationship with mind... ... love when it makes our lives of higher quality - hate when it forces outside of theta state in order to learn something that we don't want to know, which doesn't make sense ... ...

SB_UK
11-18-14, 08:32 AM
I'd suggest that the ADDer is one for 'practice makes perfect' ie to repeat processes eg speaking a language, catching a ball, typing on a keyboard etc etc
- ie driving something into implicit memory and then repeating, perfecting ... ...

what's infuriating about the way we teach children - is that there's no intrinsic repetition involved in eg English literature and so you're going to be tested on information you've block loaded into working memory
- and the same goes for the way we teach history in school (the pain of learning dates)

- yes - it can be done - but what's the point of transferring data into a part of the mind which doesn't shape the individual.

IE - from a slow start typing - I know type well ... ... I have become a good typist intrinsically -
presumably because I've transferred skills from training (explicit) into an implicit quality.

Side note

Implicit and quality.
There's a relationship there ie when one becomes (enter new skill transferred into implicit memory eg catching a ball) - you intrinsically become of higher quality.

SB_UK
11-18-14, 08:37 AM
Thanks Namazu and Lunacie


I appreciate the discussion.

I think some explicit and explicit development occurs throughout life, before and after the age of 4.

Some of the major differences, are in the rates of development, in amount of development, during different stages of life, are the mechanisms already established or more sensitive to environment influences while developing for the first time, etc..


The critical sensitive period of implicit (preverbal) development, before the age of 4.

The critical sensitive period of explicit (verbal) development, after the age of 4-18.


Explicit development appears to develop on top of implicit development.


It would be good if I learned more about both implict and explicit critical sensitive periods of development, with biological mechanisms involved in ADHD.

And get back to you in the near future.




P


Let's take learning to type.

Is that explicit -> implicit because we gain the ability to shift typing from conscious awareness (ie look at keys and press the appropriate one)
- to being able to type as we think of a word (in real-time)

ie bypassing the 'conscious mind'.

It's important to see that I'm trying to reference 2 types of mind - a real-time implicit mind and a 'training' mind which is the explicit mind.

-*-

So the point of the section above is to ask whether the implicit mind (obviously everything we learn before we can speak ie 4 years of age) can envelop the explicit mind through eg repetition (in the case of typing) or practice (in the case of speaking a foreign language) ?

SB_UK
11-18-14, 08:55 AM
I agree with the last statement you made.

I also agree that we may be more or less sensitive to certain influences at different ages / stages of development, and that early experiences are important.

What I am questioning is the idea that implicit learning is somehow not "critical" after the age of 4. It might be the case, I just don't know and I'm not sure why it should be the case. I agree that at a certain point, explicit learning is added on top of implicit learning.

But regardless of how we're learning, implicit memory continues to influence our decisions throughout life -- if SB's right, then perhaps more so for some of us than for others. His hypothesis matches my experience, though I don't know if it is really broadly generalizable to people with ADHD or other "non-typical" developers, or just a characteristic he and I seem to share.

I need to want to answer a question before I can answer a question.
And if I don't want to answer a question - it's very hard to try.
If I want to answer a question - then answering the question is its own reward (actual neurochemical reward).

-*-

So - if what we're discussing is:
ADD is not a problem of knowing, it is a problem of doing. (paraphrasing Dr.Barkley)

Knowing is cognition, "knowing" is not the primary problem.

Doing is emotion, "doing" is the primary problem.


Then using simple language in looking at the genetics of Type II Diabetes and Obesity - is that I know how - but I can't make myself do it - because there's no point.

The disorder of doing relates to structure of mind which 'returns' that there's nothing of any use that we'll find through understanding the genetics of T2D/Obesity - all we need is a distress free world, proper food and proper exercise to all (or a moneyless society which'll deliver all of the above) - and we'll prevent a disease which is set to 'bust' national health systems and also national economies.

-*-

So - if what we're discussing is the difference between 'knowing' and 'doing' - it's because the ADDer has an implicit structure of mind which knows that there's no point to certain endeavours -> no motivation -> procrastination -> activity only if dopamine (produced naturally when the mind/brain believes it's doing something worthwhile) is supplied exogenously in pill form.

-*-

So knowing isn't cognition necessarily - because what the individual knows (implicitly) is what's actually going to call the shots.
And doing isn't emotion - though doing will lead to reward or aversion dependent on whether we act upon what we know to be immoral or act upon what we know to be moral (right).

So - is it stong to suggest that studying the genetics/pharmacology of diabetes/obesity is immoral ?
Yes.
Because if all medical professionals stood together on moneyless society, proper food, proper exercise as the unambiguous solution to a problem where 1/3 of UK and USA have prediabetes
- and if people were not waiting for a magic drug (there'll be no magic drug)
- then we'd be able to take action.

As long as some hold out the promise of a magic cure - prevention which requires self-discipline will never take ahold.

SB_UK
11-18-14, 09:02 AM
Thanks.

I understand the definition of a "critical period of development".

But I don't understand what you are suggesting about implicit vs. explicit learning as it relates to ADHD.

Could you explain a bit more? (Not just quote others, but explain what you mean?)

We learn implicitly early in life, and later we learn both implicitly and explicitly.

But as I understand it, implicit learning is not necessarily entirely emotional -- people may also pick up language and other knowledge that way.
(Most kids begin to speak before age 4, for example, even without being explicitly taught grammar and vocabulary or knowing how they learned it.)

Thanks - yes - trying to use a foreign language as my example above eg started at age 11 and effortlessly spoken at age 18
- but this is an explicit to implicit (ie no conscious effort required) without needing to invoke any emotional system.

It feels good when we're speaking (and have shifted from explicit into implicit mode) - is that what you mean by implicit mode having a relationship with emotion.

Certainly if we look at what I'm describing as implicit mode ie thinking in daydream state - I'm happy - which suggest some sort of emotional connect.

SB_UK
11-18-14, 09:16 AM
Could you explain what you mean by "implicit critical sensitive period of development" and "explicit critical sensitive period of development"?

I understand "critical sensitive period of development" and "implicit learning / memory" and "explicit learning / memory",
I'm just confused about how you're combining these different terms.

When I think of "critical sensitive period of development", I think of environmental influences (outside the person) shaping development, which I think you mentioned earlier as part of the definition.

When I think of implicit and explicit learning and memory, I think of something that's more a feature of the person and how they assimilate information, rather than something that really comes from the environment.

I mean, in some settings, explicit learning is actively encouraged, like when students are asked to read a textbook or study lists of words or memorize a violin solo.
And, yes, it would be ridiculous to ask a baby to "study" how to walk or to memorize techniques for self-regulation, since they aren't really able to engage their environments in that way
(though parents certainly do try to teach words: for example, saying to a baby, "Can you say, "Daddy"? "Da - da"?").

In other settings, implicit learning dominates -- as in natural language learning from simply hearing the language used around you (and immersion programs set up to replicate that type of language acquisition).

So there is some environmental influence there, sure, in terms of the opportunities available for learning and the ways in which people are encouraged to interact with their environments.

But since implicit learning is, as I understand it, the learning that happens when we're not consciously trying to learn something,
and implicit memory is the kind of memory that influences our thoughts and actions without us consciously trying to recall experiences,
I'm not sure how we could best use this to positively influence early development,
except to fall back on generally modeling the kinds of behavior and self-regulation we would like our children to "absorb".
(Which can be tough for those of us who, as adults, still aren't great at emotional self-regulation and other life skills.)

There is probably something to the left vs. right brain dominance you mention, though my impression is that some of the left - right brain stuff that's been repeated in popular media is an oversimplification.

What are your thoughts on how we could use our understanding of implicit and explicit learning/development (at early ages, 4 or younger, or even at older ages) to encourage positive development?

Can I reword this - almost identical sense.

But since implicit learning is, as I understand it, the learning that shapes our (implicit) behaviour without 'having to think about it'.

[happens when we're not consciously trying to learn something], and implicit memory is the kind of memory which implicit learning derives from.

implicit memory -> implicit learning -> implicit behaviour
[that influences our thoughts and actions without us consciously trying to recall experiences,]

-*-

So - I'm trying to describe evasion of the conscious mind in living life - and I think that the conscious mind is only called into action when the individual doesn't know how to resolve a situation.

So - if we're exercising in the sun on a pre-defined route
- there're no problems which need solving.

However - if we look at eg the legal system - there are millions of issues which need to be improved.

The conscious mind (explicit) is like a legal system.
The mind I'm describing - conscious mind (implicit) is like a day's walking in the silence in the sun with a dog on a route which we can travel in auto-pilot.

SB_UK
11-18-14, 09:21 AM
The slight impairment of the right OFC associated with ADHD, is most likely to occur during the implicit critical period of development, and much less and less likely to occur as we age after the implicit critical sensitive period of development.
P

Still not sure whether the altered size of ROFC is feature rather than flaw.

-*-

So - definitely - a developmental delay.

But increased time to development tends to be a sign of increased evolution.

Not sure that the delay/impairment is anything more than taking longer to become better.

-*-

What's the core issue which separates ADDers and nonADDers.

ADDers can't get reward from the things which society pushes us to succeed in ie materialism.
Materialism doesn't float our boat - because we're customised towards 'quality'.

That's a very definite improvement - which could (the brain/mind processes to close down loophole (wetiko) in mind) take longer to develop.

SB_UK
11-18-14, 10:58 AM
Never really heard of the implicit mind before.
http://www.warc.com/Blogs/What_has_the_Implicit_Mind_ever_done_for_us.blog?I D=1758

The Implicit mind is the bit we’re not aware of, but which influences most of what we do.

So how does stuff get into the implicit mind? One route is through explicit (active) learning


So - the ADDer mind likes implicit mode ?
Doesn't like to venture into explicit mode especially when there's no obvious route back into implicit mode.

Or explaining this really simply.

The ADDer mind wants to understand and apply
- hell (for us) would be learning random rules

- we need them to make sense and then to operate off the sense which these ideas have come together to produce (implicit mind).

The worst possible experience for the ADDer - ideas which can't be resolved because they've competing interests.

Example - how do we pursue survival and morality - when survival requires money (which is by definition immoral since it must result in inequality) ?

Survival and morality are prime directives to man.

But you can't have both in a monetary based economy.

namazu
11-18-14, 11:47 AM
No - that's not right.

What I'm trying to describe is learning something which then becomes effortless ie one can undertake the activity without a certain type of thought - which I think would be called the explicit mind.

So - to learn is to place information from the explicit mind into the implicit mind - and to do allows us to bypass the explicit mind.

So - let's take an example of learning a language or learning how to catch a ball.

1. Explicit training
2. Implicit learning - we write a language or catch a ball without the effort associated with the explicit mind/conscious awareness.

IE we don't think - how do I say ? 'xyz' in a foreign language after learning it -w e just do it ... ... and (see my computing/maths example)
- we don't know how we do it - we *just* do it.

Similarly - learning a ball - requires 'training' and then when we've trained we're able to catch a ball without engaging the explicit mind which requires training.

-*-

So - what this idea points at to me (have't thought about this before) is that explicit is designed to train (neural development) the implicit; and we have learnt when we demonstrate implicit application of explicit learning ... ... ie being able to speak a language or catch a ball without thinking.

The important part is - "without thinking"
- because of course we're thinking when we speak a foreign language - it just feels so effortless - that it's as though we haven't had to exert effort.

-*-

OK - explicit + effort -> implicit

Sounds right ... ... but !!!

I'm trying to explain that

knowlege which makes sense transfers from explicit -> implicit (able to use the information effortlessly)
- and that this is the point of education ie to be able to transfer not knowledge but understanding.

How do we connect up these 2 ideas ?

Explain

Well learning a foreign language isn't like science ie it doesn't make sense -
I'm describing the point as being the effortless usage of 'implicit' away from 'explicit'

- but I can't use the blanket argument that something needs to make sense before when learned - it can transfer from explicit to implicit.

Learning and then effortlessly catching a ball makes no sense.

I think we're mostly on the same wavelength as far as implicit learning being effortless.

I guess to me, it seems like there are some things that are
purely implicit,
some things that go from explicit --> implicit
(your riding a bike is a good example),
and then some things that may stay permanently explicit
(such as factoids crammed for a test)
or which are then forgotten
(at least to the conscious, effortful mind...
...but perhaps an implicit memory of those could also be stored and appear spontaneously at some point).

So I wonder if there's room in your model
for purely implicit learning that's not preceded by explicit learning
(even if there is also some knowledge that becomes assimilated into wisdom following an explicit learning + time + daydreaming + combination with other things known or understood --> implicit pathway).

Also, I'm not certain of the directionality of learning vs. memory -- I guess it depends how you define "learning". To me, "implicit learning" would be the process by which "implicit memories" are encoded. (Though there are probably some feedback loops; pattern recognition involved in implicit learning must require some memory of previous occurrences.)

SB_UK
11-18-14, 12:30 PM
Also, I'm not certain of the directionality of learning vs. memory -- I guess it depends how you define "learning". To me, "implicit learning" would be the process by which "implicit memories" are encoded.

I changed the order several times over before posting :)

- so completely understand.

?? I think I was looking at ?? but REALLY don't know ... ...

explicit learning -> explicit memory -> knowledge -> reassociates to understanding -> implicit memory -> representing implicit learning (ie you have learnt something) -> behaviour

or maybe 'reassociates to understanding' = implicit learning

but here only looking at explicit learning.

SB_UK
11-18-14, 12:33 PM
I
So I wonder if there's room in your model
for purely implicit learning that's not preceded by explicit learning


Before posting - I also tried to work out whether this was true.

And tried to ask myself whether it's possible that learning in the daydream state = implicit learning ie the state of mind echoes which type of mind is accessed ie explicit or implicit.

I usually associate daydream with low freq EEG and being present with higher freq EEGs ... ... and it's really a mistake to assume that we can't take things in, in the daydream state of mind

- it's a great way to 'learn' ... ...

mildadhd
11-18-14, 03:52 PM
There is probably something to the left vs. right brain dominance you mention, though my impression is that some of the left - right brain stuff that's been repeated in popular media is an oversimplification.




I definitely agree it is an over simplification to say that a slight impairment in OFC is the primary cause of ADHD.

In my opinion the over simplification is also a result of not enough general understanding about early infant development and the biological connection associated with lower affective consciousness.

Primary emotional response systems, like for example the SEEKING system dopaminergic pathyways originate in the brain stem midbrain area in early life, with some dopameinergic pathways branching all the way to the orbito prefrontal cortex.

It is possible that slight impairment especially during the late stages of prenatal development, and earliest years of postnatal development in lower SEEKING system subcortical affective areas, during the presences of raw affective consciousness during early infant experience, could have a slight impact on development of the orbitofrontal cortex (OFC) as we mature, especially before the age of 4.

Specifics would depend on individual inherited temperament and individual emotional circumstances.

I have thought a lot about how the right OFC may appear to more impaired than the left OFC.

But I haven't learned enough about the existing biological mechanisms and research theories involved, to discuss the information yet.


Everybody is making great points, my differences in this discussion is not much about disagreement, but focusing on similar topic perspectives from different levels of control.

Its more obviously a baby does not have the same level of self control as a more mature adult, but a baby does have some level of control.


I'm going to focus on affective consciousness as much as possible from a hypersensitive infants perspective from birth til about the age of two, from the ground up.

(there is lots of information to discuss about sensitivity and family life before conception, and before birth, as well as after the age of two but I am leaving that information out of this discussion for now).


I think there is lots of great insight being made in this thread from different levels of maturity and control, and plan to return to and discuss them all.

Starting at birth, from the bottom up.





P

BrainFreeze
11-20-14, 02:41 AM
I am just going to hark backkk to Lunacie's comments about parents 'knowing' that their child does things differently from a very young age. I knew there was something very very different about my Mr 5 when he was 6 months old (an instinctual thing and also comparisons with my eldest son). I started taking him regularly to the GP at about 8/9 months old and until he was 2 and still not walking but doing a commando crawl and not. stopping. at. all and very erratic and all over the place. I constantly advocated for him but kept being told by his GP that kids all develop differently. The daycare he went to at age 2.5 finally alerted me to the fact that 'something wasn't quite right' and then I finally got early invervention and we haven't looked back since. He has severe ADHD (combined type) and intellectual disability (not static). Interestingly enough - he was a very very calm baby (too calm and movements were very slow) until he finally started walking. Actually, when my son was born he was in distress and i had an emergency c-section as he was 'stuck'. Born with a strydor and I think now - looking back - that I kinda 'knew' that 'things weren't quite right'.

How difficult is it for 'specialists' and 'professionals' to distinguish normal from abnormal at such a tender age as 6/7/8/9 months (specially for ADHD)? What is the impact of no intervention until at least age 3? No formal diagnosis until age 5? My son wasn't born at age 4 - he was born the way he was when he was 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

BrainFreeze
11-20-14, 02:56 AM
oh - and forgot to mention in terms of explicit memory Mr 5 has toys from when he was born to age 2 and he has picked them up and showed me how he used to play with them right down to the last detail...I have his old musical rocker and he sat in it awhile ago and asked me to put on the 'jungle music' that he used to love when he was a baby. pretty trippy...

daveddd
11-20-14, 11:15 AM
SB, i was browsing the newest adhd junk to kill time and came across this , seems like stuff you always say

care to interpret ?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4214173/

Lunacie
11-20-14, 12:16 PM
I am just going to hark backkk to Lunacie's comments about parents 'knowing' that their child does things differently from a very young age. I knew there was something very very different about my Mr 5 when he was 6 months old (an instinctual thing and also comparisons with my eldest son). I started taking him regularly to the GP at about 8/9 months old and until he was 2 and still not walking but doing a commando crawl and not. stopping. at. all and very erratic and all over the place. I constantly advocated for him but kept being told by his GP that kids all develop differently. The daycare he went to at age 2.5 finally alerted me to the fact that 'something wasn't quite right' and then I finally got early invervention and we haven't looked back since. He has severe ADHD (combined type) and intellectual disability (not static). Interestingly enough - he was a very very calm baby (too calm and movements were very slow) until he finally started walking. Actually, when my son was born he was in distress and i had an emergency c-section as he was 'stuck'. Born with a strydor and I think now - looking back - that I kinda 'knew' that 'things weren't quite right'.

How difficult is it for 'specialists' and 'professionals' to distinguish normal from abnormal at such a tender age as 6/7/8/9 months (specially for ADHD)? What is the impact of no intervention until at least age 3? No formal diagnosis until age 5? My son wasn't born at age 4 - he was born the way he was when he was 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

At a guess, learning to recognize the traits of mental disorders like ADHD and
autism isn't part of the training for doctors. Or for most parents either. ;)

SB_UK
11-20-14, 05:08 PM
SB, i was browsing the newest adhd junk to kill time and came across this , seems like stuff you always say

care to interpret ?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4214173/

The problem with stress.

Let's say the body's under stress ?
What would it do to survive - it'd try and conserve energy.

Now - let's say we've a developmental process from conception onwards - what might stress do - at the genomic level ?
Alter the genome / histome to reduce growth ie conserve energy.

Now - if 'gentle' stress is applied ?
We'd end up with gradual selection for an energetically efficient type.

But - if 'extreme' stress is applied ?
Perhaps we'd dampen growth adversely.

-*-

Maybe this is where eustress (selection of a more efficient form) meets distress (do whatever it takes to survive even if damage occurs).

-*-

So - I'd just make 1 point (inititally)- of the relationship between stress, growth suppression and particularly so in developmental processes.

SB_UK
11-20-14, 05:15 PM
Seems well known that 'stress' broadly does that -
eg
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15128277

I want to extend it into actual genome and histone changes at the developmental point at which the stress is encountered ... ... which permit memory ie reduced energetic needs at the exact same point in development in future generations ... ... thereby ... ... maximising future offspring survival - in theory - because future offspring are being prepared for lean times at that exact time-point in their own development.

Lunacie
11-20-14, 05:17 PM
The problem with stress.

Let's say the body's under stress ?
What would it do to survive - it'd try and conserve energy.

Now - let's say we've a developmental process from conception onwards - what might stress do - at the genomic level ?
Alter the genome / histome to reduce growth ie conserve energy.

Now - if 'gentle' stress is applied ?
We'd end up with gradual selection for an energetically efficient type.

But - if 'extreme' stress is applied ?
Perhaps we'd dampen growth adversely.

-*-

Maybe this is where eustress (selection of a more efficient form) meets distress (do whatever it takes to survive even if damage occurs).

-*-

So - I'd just make 1 point (inititally)- of the relationship between stress, growth suppression and particularly so in developmental processes.

The concept of "gentle" versus "extreme" stress is just one facet.

There is also "acute" versus "chronic" stress.

Acute (temporary) is recoverable.

Chronic (continuous) is more debilitating.

SB_UK
11-20-14, 05:21 PM
So - we know

stress -> cortisol -> anti-inflammatory

We know

HDACi -> anti-inflammatory

??? connection ???

This isn't it ... ... but there's some relationship between cortisol and histone acetylation and deacetylation.

page 10
http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1566&context=luc_theses

"GC induced histone deacetylation"GC = Glucocorticoid = cortisol

I think we'd need the sentence to read:
"GC induced histone acetylation" ... ... don't know yet ... ...

Thinking growing and doing ... ... ie there's a 'growth' schedule and an 'operational' schedule and that'd then make sense with the quote above
- but I think I've just forced an explanation.

SB_UK
11-20-14, 05:28 PM
The concept of "gentle" versus "extreme" stress is just one facet.

There is also "acute" versus "chronic" stress.

Acute (temporary) is recoverable.

Chronic (continuous) is more debilitating.

Let's use eustress and distress - easier ... ...

SB_UK
11-20-14, 05:30 PM
Problem is that PTSD often occurs throough acute episodes

- so I think we need to revert to distress and eustress.

Lunacie
11-20-14, 05:39 PM
Let's use eustress and distress - easier ... ...

I was saying that there is more than one factor in deciding whether you experience eustress or distress.

SB_UK
11-21-14, 05:48 AM
I was saying that there is more than one factor in deciding whether you experience eustress or distress.

Not sure that really matters as long as we can partition stress into eustress and distress.

Lunacie
11-21-14, 12:03 PM
Here's what you wrote:

The problem with stress.

Let's say the body's under stress ?
What would it do to survive - it'd try and conserve energy.

Now - let's say we've a developmental process from conception onwards - what might stress do - at the genomic level ?
Alter the genome / histome to reduce growth ie conserve energy.

Now - if 'gentle' stress is applied ?
We'd end up with gradual selection for an energetically efficient type.

But - if 'extreme' stress is applied ?
Perhaps we'd dampen growth adversely.

-*-

Maybe this is where eustress (selection of a more efficient form) meets distress (do whatever it takes to survive even if damage occurs).

-*-

So - I'd just make 1 point (inititally)- of the relationship between stress, growth suppression and particularly so in developmental processes.


Which I think makes a good point.
Here's how I'd amend it to expand on that point ...


The problem with stress.

Let's say the body's under stress ?
What would it do to survive - it'd try and conserve energy.

Now - let's say we've a developmental process from conception onwards - what might stress do - at the genomic level ?
Alter the genome / histome to reduce growth ie conserve energy.

Now - if 'acute' stress is applied ?
We'd end up with gradual selection for an energetically efficient type.

But - if 'chronic' stress is applied ?
Perhaps we'd dampen growth adversely.

-*-

Maybe this is where eustress (selection of a more efficient form) meets distress (do whatever it takes to survive even if damage occurs).

-*-

So - I'd just make 1 point (inititally)- of the relationship between stress, growth suppression and particularly so in developmental processes.

SB_UK
11-21-14, 05:18 PM
I understand - but does acute need to be below a threshold or is any acute stress which doesn't kill us going to have that effect ?

Still wondering whether it's eustress and distress as opposed to acute and chronic.

I'm just a little worried that intense acute developmental stress could have adverse effects ie arrest necessary development.

Lunacie
11-21-14, 05:47 PM
I understand - but does acute need to be below a threshold or is any acute stress which doesn't kill us going to have that effect ?

Still wondering whether it's eustress and distress as opposed to acute and chronic.

I'm just a little worried that intense acute developmental stress could have adverse effects ie arrest necessary development.

Even temporary (acute) stress that is intense could cause PTSD or interfere with development.

However, in my mind there is no question that chronic (ongoing) stress is much more likely
to have such an effect.

SB_UK
11-22-14, 08:20 AM
Even temporary (acute) stress that is intense could cause PTSD or interfere with development.

However, in my mind there is no question that chronic (ongoing) stress is much more likely
to have such an effect.

I agree.