View Full Version : Rethinking Treatment of Schizophrenia (may be relevant to ADHD and other disorders)


TygerSan
11-05-14, 03:52 PM
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/11/03/359655855/a-new-way-of-thinking-about-schizophrenia-could-lead-to-new-treatments

In short, the meds only do so much, and just kind of hit the mute button on hallucinations and delusions.

A hypothesis on what happens in schizophrenia is that the normal mechanism that filters sensory and other information is broken, and this lack of filter is what leads to hallucinations and delusions.

Perhaps we should help people learn how to focus and function within the context of their disorder, in order to improve quality of life.

Hathor
11-05-14, 04:29 PM
A very good friend of mine is Schizophrenic, and I am Schizotypal. I like the article, but perhaps it fails to detect that there may be insight along with delusions?

The brain of someone with schizophrenia tries to process all that information as though it has meaning, says Vinogradov. And maybe, though this is just a theory, this onslaught of extra stuff, extra data — that is what gives rise to hallucinations.

http://i6.pixs.ru/storage/7/6/8/thumbnaila_7171764_14200768.jpg (http://img7.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=32021_DSC_00541_123_593lo.JPG)

TygerSan
11-05-14, 04:40 PM
The way I read it, I don't think that the article makes a claim on insight one way or another. I'm sure insight varies greatly between people.

I honestly didn't really understand attachment to the voices until I read a thread on another forum in which the voices were this man's friends and family, and his story (I refuse to call them delusions) was so compelling that I was like, well, why the hell would he *want* to silence his friends? They weren't scary to him. They weren't telling him he was a horrible person. They were just there.

I swear if he could function well enough in this world to be happy and physically healthy with whatever aids necessary, who the **** cares what he believes.

Hathor
11-05-14, 05:28 PM
I did not mean specifically voices, just that my friend is very insightful, and he seems to lose his talent for a few days after his monthly shot. He also has a good sense of what he knows and what is speculative.

But he does not like to talk about his schizophrenia, other than to tell me when he is going for his shot, sort of to warn me not to get carried away with the Dionysian when he gets back.

The only delusional trait I have seen is paranoia. Once I took a little revenge on him for a mistake he made with me. I did not mean really hurt or disturb him, only a little poke.

But after that he took everything I said against him for about 3 days, so I ended up poking myself more than anything.

He is also quotable IMO. For example:

As i understand the whole shizophrenic ill ****ty stuff goes higher and higher till this poor little man over my brain while i get drunk from his power to will force monouvering his poor little ship knowing that there is a big ochtopuss under him and loosing his fear by looking to the stars perhaps. Well, anyway the whole thing stinks because even myself cannot go out of my own substance - but wait - perhaps i am this poor man- and there is a much fatter man under my appartment, yes, now it is clear why you are talking about chthulu and now i am one with it because i am feeding it greatfully. I am again so perplexed and i hope really that was not the last perplexion. Who knows really if Nietzsche had a big laugh when he wrote that stuff for the master class or for the farmers toilett house with the heart on the door. Now it is clear that lantern does not mean lantern but latrine. However i am not willing to go in detaill into the every meaning or possible not-meaning of what he could meant in the sarcastic ironic state of his poor syphilized brain

mildadhd
11-05-14, 10:39 PM
Loneliness seems like a major trigger for some of the people I personally know in the city I live in, who suffer from mental-emotional health issues.

I am learning that a relative of mine who suffers from similar health issues mentioned in the OP does not prefer the Dionysian emotional perspective, and that it is much better not to bring it up, and it better for me to promote especially the emotional side non verbally through my actions.

I have been working on a more balanced, mental-emotional health type approach when in person.

It just seems that many discussions online lean more toward a unbalanced Apollonian mental health approach, and many times avoiding the Dionysian emotional health approach all together and I get frustrated from a early possible prevention/lessening perspective, It does seem like I end up more poking myself sometimes as well.

There is so much overlap in different ages/stages, sometimes.

I apologize to people I poke, who don't have the same interests in my unbalanced Dionysian emotional health approach in online discussion.

I will work on it.

Thanks for thread discussion.


P

SB_UK
11-06-14, 09:24 AM
A hypothesis on what happens in schizophrenia is that the normal mechanism that filters sensory and other information is broken, and this lack of filter is what leads to hallucinations and delusions.

Sounds like the Intense world theory of autism.

One is sensory overload ? the other is empathy overload ?

SB_UK
11-06-14, 09:26 AM
Autism - enriched in mothers with gestational diabetes. [ref wikipedia]
Schizophrenia - enriched in mothers deprived of food. [ref Dutch Hunger Winter study]

Autism - in development - too much food / incorrect foods / distress
Schizophrenia - in development - not enough food / incorrect foods / distress

-*-

Aberrant development because of blood glucose / ketone body fluctuations ? ie they're metabolic conditions ? or disruptions based on environmental absence of appropriate nutrition to the developing embryo.

-*-

Both due to effects on nerve aggregation of blood glucose and ketone bodies - blood glucose elevation favours duplication ? ketone body elevation favours rearrangement ? Operation at the level of histone modeification ie trasncriptional control.

Blood glucose -> drives [nerve cell] division in development ?
Ketone bodies -> drive neural rearrangement ?

So - diseases of aberrant development coming down to combination of distress exposure and incorrect food consumption.

SB_UK
11-06-14, 10:18 AM
So ... ... autism and schizophrenia as the 2 disrupted poles of the mental health spectrum represent the premature growth/rearrangement of systems which relate to

-1- Empathy [autistics are overloaded by empathy]
-2- Sensory info upload [see schizophrenia story above]
-3- Logic [eg savantism]

<- so empathizing [empathy] / systematizing [logic] theory as the aspects of mind and also 'gates to perception' ie increase in sensory info upload are covered as the 3 neural systems which're going to aid us in middle age/wisdom.

What happens is that qualities which're meant to open up at wisdom - when we're ready are bestowed on children at birth through aberrant metabolic conditions during development ... ... and the individual is overloaded by the increased availability of information which can't be handled.

At wisdom - the gates to information increase are opened - representing rearrangement in the same neural systems which're broken in autism/schizophrenia and this information increase 'floats our boat'

- but premature development of these same circuits merely serves to drive the young child mad.

So - a metabolic nature to the disease and a metabolic nature (in middle age at wisdsom when we're ready) to driving (then) rearrangement in the circuits - which through increased informational upload - floats our (then) boat.

-*-

So - we're generally talking about loss of filter - but it's more that development puts in a new system which amplifies information upload - but you really don't want to be able to sample more information if the increased capacity 'll fry your brain - a bit like an electrical spike or driving too much current through a (which blows a) circuit <- overload.

-*-

This places distress [mostly through life in an unequal society] and the wrong diet as causal on EVERY (common) disease (and even some of the not so common ones) which human beings suffer from resulting in premature death, decay, destruction.

TygerSan
11-06-14, 10:28 AM
I honestly wonder whether the filter issue is at a more meta level than the disorder that one presents with.

If sensory information isn't filtered correctly, the brain still tries to make sense of the firehose worth of inputs by randomly constructing connections, grasping at straws essentially. The way those inputs are interpreted and coped with may, in my opinion, shape which disorder one is labeled with.

If one shuts down and turns inward, essentially artificially limiting the effects of sensory overload, one may be considered to be autistic. If ones brain instead tries weaving all sensory inputs into a coherent narrative, grabbing every input possible at equal salience, one may be considered to have hallucinations or delusions.

Clearly, the two mechanisms of coping may not be mutually exclusive, and the entire hypothesis is likely to be rather over simplistic, but it makes intuitive sense to me.

I think one hypothesis about sleep and dreams during sleep is that dreams are the brain trying to make sense out of the patterns of activity that occur during REM sleep.

daveddd
11-06-14, 10:35 AM
I honestly wonder whether the filter issue is at a more meta level than the disorder that one presents with.

If sensory information isn't filtered correctly, the brain still tries to make sense of the firehose worth of inputs by randomly constructing connections, grasping at straws essentially. The way those inputs are interpreted and coped with may, in my opinion, shape which disorder one is labeled with.

If one shuts down and turns inward, essentially artificially limiting the effects of sensory overload, one may be considered to be autistic. If ones brain instead tries weaving all sensory inputs into a coherent narrative, grabbing every input possible at equal salience, one may be considered to have hallucinations or delusions.

Clearly, the two mechanisms of coping may not be mutually exclusive, and the entire hypothesis is likely to be rather over simplistic, but it makes intuitive sense to me.

I think one hypothesis about sleep and dreams during sleep is that dreams are the brain trying to make sense out of the patterns of activity that occur during REM sleep.

Great theory

I remember old writings of latent schizophrenia. That somewhat matches what you are saying with the sensory shutdown

Only occasionally experiencing glimpses of paranoia or terror when under extreme distress.

Shared issues of problems with the primary process and flattened affect among both

Hathor
11-06-14, 11:08 AM
If one shuts down and turns inward, essentially artificially limiting the effects of sensory overload, one may be considered to be autistic. If ones brain instead tries weaving all sensory inputs into a coherent narrative, grabbing every input possible at equal salience, one may be considered to have hallucinations or delusions.



Yes I like where you are looking, and IME if the weaving is done with care it ends up as possibles which can be shared a'la Buber, not delusions which are announced to anyone encountered. These careless ones give insanity a bad name.

But to make it more confusing I tend to get in a type of Sub-Hypomania sometimes :confused:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2013/new-data-reveal-extent-of-genetic-overlap-between-major-mental-disorders.shtml

To bring in the old SChool:

http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/910/0736531928.png

http://books.google.ca/books?id=o-YcTLX8m7MC&pg=PA786&lpg=PA786&dq=karl+jaspers+plato+madness&source=bl&ots=jx4LGC2T6I&sig=YWQM19ynlmU8fAinYWOejTXOiuw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=so1bVPXSMs-sogSk8YD4DQ&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=karl%20jaspers%20plato%20madness&f=false

SB_UK
11-06-14, 11:11 AM
OK - I see ... ....

we've covered over and over the idea of ADDer and sensitivity - haven't yet nailed what ADDer sensitivity is - but we're given the clue in Intense world theory of autism meets the Tygersan theory above on schizophrenia.

Also - continuing Tygersan - that daydreaming like night dreaming generates saliency (ie hierarchy ie organization) in knowledge.

Now we're looking at the disrupted poles of the mental health system and seeing - hypersensitivity.

And we're looking at the process of enlightenment as opening the gates to (ie putting in place in effect) hypersensitivity ie increased information upload.

-*-

It's all just a metabolic neural arrangement in 3 neural systems - the sensory bit, the 'thinking' bit and the empathy bit.

A process of evolution which has very much so moved away from the genomic level and through histone deacetylation inhibition at the neural level triggers rearrangement towards elevating informational upload through the brain/mind.

daveddd
11-06-14, 11:16 AM
Also. Interesting. That the people with the turned inward. Seem to have a great sensitivity to stim psychosis

SB_UK
11-06-14, 11:18 AM
http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/910/0736531928.png



So the true mental disorder is the disorder of people who chase the primitive reward system of as much food as possible, as much drink, as many partners ... ...

and that describes our society.

Seizing and holding addiction close to one's breast.

SB_UK
11-06-14, 11:33 AM
Looking simply at the sensitive child

eg randomly chosen webpage
http://www.printfriendly.com/print/?source=site&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hsperson.com%2Ftest%2Fhighly-sensitive-child-test%2F



My child: startles easily --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
complains about scratchy clothing, seams in socks, or labels against his/her skin. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
doesn’t usually enjoy big surprises. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
learns better from a gentle correction than strong punishment. --- EMPATHY SENSITIVITY
seems to read my mind. --- EMPATHY SENSITIVITY
uses big words for his/her age. --- LOGICAL SENSITIVITY
notices the slightest unusual odor. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
has a clever sense of humor. --- LOGICAL SENSITIVITY
seems very intuitive. --- LOGICAL SENSITIVITY
is hard to get to sleep after an exciting day. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
doesn’t do well with big changes. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
wants to change clothes if wet or sandy. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
asks lots of questions. --- LOGICAL SENSITIVITY
is a perfectionist. --- SENSORY/LOGICAL/EMPATHY SENSITIVITY
notices the distress of others. --- EMPATHY SENSITIVITY
prefers quiet play. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
asks deep, thought-provoking questions. --- LOGICAL SENSITIVITY
is very sensitive to pain. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
is bothered by noisy places. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
notices subtleties (something that’s been moved, a change in a person’s appearance, etc.) --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
considers if it is safe before climbing high. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
performs best when strangers aren’t present. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
feels things deeply. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY


<- that's a near perfect description of ADHD


If we take POST 12
It's all just a metabolic neural arrangement in 3 neural systems - the sensory bit, the 'thinking' bit and the empathy bit.The SENSORY, LOGICAL and EMPATHY SENSITIVITIES which're broken in autism and schizophrenia are present in a lower level (all of them) in the highly sensitive person == ADDer.

mildadhd
11-08-14, 09:48 PM
Looking simply at the sensitive child

eg randomly chosen webpage
http://www.printfriendly.com/print/?source=site&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hsperson.com%2Ftest%2Fhighly-sensitive-child-test%2F



My child: startles easily --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
complains about scratchy clothing, seams in socks, or labels against his/her skin. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
doesn’t usually enjoy big surprises. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
learns better from a gentle correction than strong punishment. --- EMPATHY SENSITIVITY
seems to read my mind. --- EMPATHY SENSITIVITY
uses big words for his/her age. --- LOGICAL SENSITIVITY
notices the slightest unusual odor. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
has a clever sense of humor. --- LOGICAL SENSITIVITY
seems very intuitive. --- LOGICAL SENSITIVITY
is hard to get to sleep after an exciting day. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
doesn’t do well with big changes. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
wants to change clothes if wet or sandy. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
asks lots of questions. --- LOGICAL SENSITIVITY
is a perfectionist. --- SENSORY/LOGICAL/EMPATHY SENSITIVITY
notices the distress of others. --- EMPATHY SENSITIVITY
prefers quiet play. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
asks deep, thought-provoking questions. --- LOGICAL SENSITIVITY
is very sensitive to pain. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
is bothered by noisy places. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
notices subtleties (something that’s been moved, a change in a person’s appearance, etc.) --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
considers if it is safe before climbing high. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
performs best when strangers aren’t present. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY
feels things deeply. --- SENSORY SENSITIVITY


<- that's a near perfect description of ADHD


If we take POST 12The SENSORY, LOGICAL and EMPATHY SENSITIVITIES which're broken in autism and schizophrenia are present in a lower level (all of them) in the highly sensitive person == ADDer.


(Primary level of control)

-Emotional Affect
-Homeostatic Affect
-Sensory Affect

Emotional feelings (doing) before, logical thinkings (knowing)

"ADD is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what you know." (Dr. Barkley)

Emotion (Beginning of the BrainMind)
Cognition (Completion of the MindBrain)

P

G.Debord
02-21-15, 04:28 PM
It just seems that many discussions online lean more toward a unbalanced Apollonian mental health approach, and many times avoiding the Dionysian emotional health approach all together and I get frustrated from a early possible prevention/lessening perspective, It does seem like I end up more poking myself sometimes as well.
P

I think I get the Nietzschean distinction, but am curious to learn more about what people have in mind when they talk about "the Dionysian emotional health approach." I'm not trolling. Sincerely curious.

Also, reading this thread reminded me of Antonin Artaud's fascinating essay on Van Gogh called, in English translation, "Van Gogh, The Suicide Provoked By Society"

http://monoskop.org/images/9/9b/Artaud_Antonin_Van_Gogh_the_Suicide_Provoked_by_So ciety.pdf

"However heartbreakmg it may appear, contemporary life preserves itself in its old atmosphere of lechery, anarchy, disorder, delirium, dissoluteness,chronic madness,bourgeois inertia,psychic anomaly (for it is not man but the world which has become' abnormal), deliberate dishonesty, flagrant hypocrisy, sordid contempt of everything which shows distinction, laying claim to a whole order founded on the fulfilment of primitive injustice- an order of organized crime, in fact. Everything is going badly because at this moment the morbid conscience has an essential interest in not recovering from its own sickness. And so a vicious society has invented psychiatry to defend itself from the investigations of certain superior lucid minds whose intuitive powers were disturbing to it."

G.Debord
02-22-15, 05:31 PM
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/11/03/359655855/a-new-way-of-thinking-about-schizophrenia-could-lead-to-new-treatments

In short, the meds only do so much, and just kind of hit the mute button on hallucinations and delusions.

A hypothesis on what happens in schizophrenia is that the normal mechanism that filters sensory and other information is broken, and this lack of filter is what leads to hallucinations and delusions.

Perhaps we should help people learn how to focus and function within the context of their disorder, in order to improve quality of life.

I just listened to the NPR bit linked in the OP. There's an annoying factual inaccuracy in the piece though. Anti-psychotics were invented in the 1950s, not the 1960s. Chlorpromazine was synthesized in ~1950 and by the early 60s its widespread clinical use had had a significant impact on approaches to "treating" psychoses, playing a role in "deinstitutionalization," etc.

Having said that, the research the NPR piece reports on is interesting! I plan to read the cited article on salience when I have access to the full article (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12505794). The purported relationship between salience and dopamine is intriguing to me because, to put it very crudely, anti-psychotics work against dopamine while ADD meds work to increase dopamine. But both conditions might be characterized by unusual perceptions of salience… Interesting!

mildadhd
02-25-15, 12:15 AM
Also, reading this thread reminded me of Antonin Artaud's fascinating essay on Van Gogh called, in English translation, "Van Gogh, The Suicide Provoked By Society"

http://monoskop.org/images/9/9b/Artaud_Antonin_Van_Gogh_the_Suicide_Provoked_by_So ciety.pdf



I believe...Van Gogh thought that we must know how to infer the myth from the most everyday things in life. (Antonin Artaud)

Thanks for the introduction to the fascinating essay.

I was considering "the most everyday things in life" "from" "the myth". ( the Dionysian emotional health approach?)

Lots of things to consider.



P

mildadhd
02-25-15, 12:59 AM
I just listened to the NPR bit linked in the OP. There's an annoying factual inaccuracy in the piece though. Anti-psychotics were invented in the 1950s, not the 1960s. Chlorpromazine was synthesized in ~1950 and by the early 60s its widespread clinical use had had a significant impact on approaches to "treating" psychoses, playing a role in "deinstitutionalization," etc.

Having said that, the research the NPR piece reports on is interesting! I plan to read the cited article on salience when I have access to the full article (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12505794). The purported relationship between salience and dopamine is intriguing to me because, to put it very crudely, anti-psychotics work against dopamine while ADD meds work to increase dopamine. But both conditions might be characterized by unusual perceptions of salience… Interesting!

Anyone have a good definition of "salient", "salience", "non salient", etc.. that could help me understand the terms better?

Here is an interesting wiki link focusing on dopaminergic pathways (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways#Pathways) and ADHD, Addiction, Schizophrenia, etc..to add to the discussion.


P

Lunacie
02-25-15, 12:42 PM
Loneliness seems like a major trigger for some of the people I personally know in the city I live in, who suffer from mental-emotional health issues.


P

Research shows that the elderly who are lonely are more likely to suffer
from mental illness ... from depression to dementia.

The catch 22 for me is that when I feel stressed or emotionally overloaded,
I cannot deal with other people and isolate myself, then become lonely,
and begin to notice depression symptoms and have to make myself
get out and do things that involve other people (shopping, drum circle, etc).