View Full Version : Barkley and other experts


acdc01
11-09-14, 01:41 PM
Sorry if this isn't the right place to post.

Is Barkley considered THE highest expert in ADHD? Are there others at his level?

I'm asking cause I'm finding my opinions to be contrary to many of his based on the videos/texts others have posted here. Disappointing to me if he is.

Also disappointing to find that even on the ADHD board, I still think differently than everyone else (just like in my normal life).

Unmanagable
11-09-14, 01:51 PM
I think a lot of peeps may share some of your views, but just don't have the desire or patience to try to discuss it.

Edited to add:

That sounded short after I read it. My lack of desire to discuss things like that, especially in this arena, stems from my past difficulties in attempting to discuss the more scientific based topics here. I didn't mean to imply there's a lack of interest, by any means. I've tried to base my understanding of what I struggle with on the professionals' opinions, but I feel things go much further than that, so I don't spend much time on trying to understand them better, just myself. Hope that explains it better.

mildadhd
11-09-14, 02:35 PM
Sorry if this isn't the right place to post.

Is Barkley considered THE highest expert in ADHD? Are there others at his level?

I'm asking cause I'm finding my opinions to be contrary to many of his based on the videos/texts others have posted here. Disappointing to me if he is.

Also disappointing to find that even on the ADHD board, I still think differently than everyone else (just like in my normal life). Sorry for that whine. Just been posting on the symptoms and symptoms and impairments thread (linked below if interested) thinking at least one person would share my views but doesn't seem like anyone does.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1696171#post1696171


Have you ever read any of my threads? :)



P

daveddd
11-09-14, 04:10 PM
peripherals threads will give u a lot better in depth look at the human element

barkley is good for beginners , but i feel he is a better businessman than psychologist


sells a ton of books

TygerSan
11-09-14, 04:48 PM
I have to strenuously disagree that Barkley is a better businessman than a psychiatrist.

He's a well-renowned researcher. I do think that if he does have a bias it's towards a more negative outlook, but that's born out of his specific experiences.

He's not the only researcher out there, but he does a good job of communicating with everyone, not just other researchers.

Dizfriz
11-09-14, 05:09 PM
Sorry if this isn't the right place to post.

Is Barkley considered THE highest expert in ADHD? Are there others at his level? Barkley is without doubt one of the top experts in the field. He is perhaps the best known as he makes the most effort to reach out to the general public.

I'm asking cause I'm finding my opinions to be contrary to many of his based on the videos/texts others have posted here.
In his lectures, Barkley is usually reporting on the scientific consensus. It is not meant to describe everyone's experiences with ADHD just the experiences of most. It is perfectly OK for anyone to experience the disorder differently than what Barkley describes and many do but that is not what Barkley is aiming for in his presentations to the public. He is trying to educate the public about ADHD and he has done a superb job of that. Spending a lot of effort on the exceptions is not very productive of the time when seen in the light of what he is trying to do with his lecture series.

If you want to look at the details and exceptions you need to read his academic books. There he gets into the fine details, and believe me with Barkley is the *very* fine details.

The lectures and videos are wonderful in my opinion but they do not and are not intended to cover all of ADHD. Again that is what his academic books are far.

Dizfriz

daveddd
11-09-14, 05:20 PM
I have to strenuously disagree that Barkley is a better businessman than a psychiatrist.

He's a well-renowned researcher. I do think that if he does have a bias it's towards a more negative outlook, but that's born out of his specific experiences.

He's not the only researcher out there, but he does a good job of communicating with everyone, not just other researchers.

its ok to disagree on opinion

but my view has nothing to do with a negative outlook

i just think other researchers have a better and much more thorough understanding of the interpersonal dynamics of adhd

thomas brown for one

daveddd
11-09-14, 05:22 PM
I have to strenuously disagree that Barkley is a better businessman than a psychiatrist.

He's a well-renowned researcher. I do think that if he does have a bias it's towards a more negative outlook, but that's born out of his specific experiences.

He's not the only researcher out there, but he does a good job of communicating with everyone, not just other researchers.

thinking about it though, i didn't mean businessman in a bad way

more of what dizfriz says, gets the word out to the public in an excellent manner, and is absolutely great in raising awareness on add

i meant it positive

mildadhd
11-09-14, 05:54 PM
Focusing on the all the actual biology involved in development and functioning of the whole brain and body

I like Dr.Barkley and many other experts.

I am just even more interested in ADHD experts that are interested in promoting brain development during implicit stage of development before the age of 4*, when sensitive unconditioned biological systems involved in possible ADHD impairment, are developing for the first time.






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mildadhd
11-09-14, 06:36 PM
Daveddd,

Did you ever get a chance to compare the topics written about "Neural Darwinism and ADHD", by Dr.Mate (1999) and by Dr. Barkley (2010?) ?



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daveddd
11-09-14, 06:37 PM
Daveddd,

Did you ever get a chance to compare the topic of "Neural Darwinism and ADHD", by Dr.Mate (1999) and by Dr. Barkley (2010)



P

no should i

mildadhd
11-09-14, 08:17 PM
no should i

It is up to you.



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mildadhd
11-09-14, 08:35 PM
Dizfriz,

You know Dr. Barkley's work well.

I am wondering if you could help me remember the title of Dr.Barkley's book with a chapter focusing on ADHD and Neural Darwinism?

If I remember correctly it was a book written in 2010? (Not sure)

I read the information in a different thread but forgot to write down the title of the book?

I would be really interested in what Dr. Barkley writes about neural Darwinism , so could consider and compare the information with what Dr. Mate writes about neural Darwinism.




P

anonymouslyadd
11-09-14, 09:09 PM
peripherals threads will give u a lot better in depth look at the human element

barkley is good for beginners , but i feel he is a better businessman than psychologist


sells a ton of books
It's a shame that our culture detests people making money off their hard work. Barkley's research dates back to the 1970's. I think only within the last 20 years has he been able to market and sell books.

The realty is that Barkley is an exceptional communicator, which makes his research that much more marketable. Combine those skills with his longitudinal work and you have a product to deliver to the public. Other scientists would benefit from looking at Barkley's career.

Mantaray14
11-09-14, 09:26 PM
Sorry if this isn't the right place to post.

Is Barkley considered THE highest expert in ADHD? Are there others at his level?

I'm asking cause I'm finding my opinions to be contrary to many of his based on the videos/texts others have posted here. Disappointing to me if he is.

Also disappointing to find that even on the ADHD board, I still think differently than everyone else (just like in my normal life). Sorry for that whine. Just been posting on the symptoms and symptoms and impairments thread (linked below if interested) thinking at least one person would share my views but doesn't seem like anyone does.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1696171#post1696171

Tom Brown is up there, he hasn't done as much as Barkley in terms of breaking down the disease into specifics, but he doesn't come with all the baggage that Barkley does (for some). He is more neutral, and more research based...more of a just the facts ma'am type. There is a nice article written by him up on the CHADD website (aimed to parents of the newly diagnosed probably), which is mostly derived from his latest book ADHD: A New Understanding.

daveddd
11-10-14, 01:20 AM
Tom Brown is up there, he hasn't done as much as Barkley in terms of breaking down the disease into specifics, but he doesn't come with all the baggage that Barkley does (for some). He is more neutral, and more research based...more of a just the facts ma'am type. There is a nice article written by him up on the CHADD website (aimed to parents of the newly diagnosed probably), which is mostly derived from his latest book ADHD: A New Understanding.

if you get a chance, he's got a newer one

Smart But Stuck: Emotions in Teens and Adults with ADHD

its excellent IMO

http://books.google.com/books?id=uubOAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=smart+but+stuck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rEpgVKDXE4O3yATC1YDYDA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=smart%20but%20stuck&f=false

Hathor
11-10-14, 01:52 AM
I do think that if he does have a bias it's towards a more negative outlook, but that's born out of his specific experiences.

.

This X1000

sarahsweets
11-10-14, 06:02 AM
Barkley is not warm and fuzzy but then again,neither is adhd.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 08:44 AM
All we need is an understanding of what ADHD is.

MeADD823 - largest contributor on site - has stated that her mind has a mind of its own.

That could be my description.

I can't force my mind to do anything.

It will happily do plenty - but right now - I'm trying to re-learn coding (after coding since pre-teen) and can't do it ... ... however want to help push forwards a money-less community project which has just kicked off in our local area.

Now I know that I need to do the programming project for money.

But I don't care about money and so can't motivate.

I know that setting up a money-less community is right and so can motivate.

It's really painfully simple - just take ADHD as a mind with a mind of its own - and where we can gain insight into what that mind wants by simply asking it - in an ideal world what'd you be doing now ... ...

You'll find that the personal insight will make sense.

Now I'm not suggesting that you'll be able to do what your mind wants - but at least you'll see that there's some aspect of you which is playing you - that it's stronger in the ADDer and that we live in a world where we're supposed to be able to control mind rather than be controlled by mind.

The mind has a mind of its own.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 08:54 AM
Now - what happens when I force myself to read up on blah blah blah is that every word becomes heavy, I can't push through - and I automatically zone out and daydream.

It's actually a joy to behold from an independent observer perspective because I have no control over my own mind - it has it's mind set on what's important and I can't shift it.

Sorry - a joy to behold as in the mechanism by which it operates is interesting to dissect ... ... it strikes me that we could consider this a 'hive mind' [as occurs in nature] form of control - to repeat (once again) my earnest belief that ADDers are simply enforcedly social organisms by design ie reward system.

We don't need to use stimulants (reward) if the behaviour is rewarding (see above ie moral context) ... ... stimulants simply allow us to (when they work) pay attention to behaviours which aren't rewarding.

Now - does that mean they're bad ... ... no they might be good to some people - but to the individual taking stimulants to adhere - he's obtaining no reward and so requires them.

So clarifying the bit above - it's quite possible that the young student in the early stages might need meds to get through the first dull stages of learning an instrument - as soon as the individual is good though - there'll be reward from playing which won't required reward in a bottle to comply.

-*-

All we're looking at in ADHD is motivation.

There's nothing wrong with the ADDer - we've simply a different motivational system - one which is social in nature - and which therefore is contravened when we're expected to do something antisocial in nature (competition, earn more money than somebody else).

I don't want to beat somebody else - I don't care if somebody beats me.
I don't want anything that money can buy.

How on earth can you not be disordered if you're forcing behaviours which not only do not reward, but more precisely are actively prohibited by one's reward system.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 09:00 AM
Sorry if this isn't the right place to post.

Is Barkley considered THE highest expert in ADHD? Are there others at his level?

I'm asking cause I'm finding my opinions to be contrary to many of his based on the videos/texts others have posted here. Disappointing to me if he is.

Also disappointing to find that even on the ADHD board, I still think differently than everyone else (just like in my normal life). Sorry for that whine. Just been posting on the symptoms and symptoms and impairments thread (linked below if interested) thinking at least one person would share my views but doesn't seem like anyone does.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1696171#post1696171

So - don't necessarily believe anybody who calls themself an expert.

You have ADHD - describe your problem.
Somebody else will agree or disagree.

MeADD823 has described her mind as having a mind of its own.
I have described my mind in exactly the same way.

All that then follows is to list what you can't make yourself do and what you would like to do - and you'll see a pattern towards what is rewarding.
As we develop knowledge/wisdom - you'll find that the ability to control your attention is lost - and it defines its own agenda.

Not a bad thing - it's a lovely state to be in
- but you cannot make your mind do anything it doesn't want to do.

A simple way of demonstrating this idea would be to identify the conscientious objectors throughout history - they've invariably been self-enquiring intellectuals who've crossed all academic boundaries.

My point is knowledge->wisdom results in loss of 'control' over attention towards selfishness/primitive desires (money,power) and - shift to -> reward from properly social behaviour.

Now - I think that nonADDer acquires social reward system at wisdom.
I think that it's in-built in ADDer from the start.

I have never been able to feel a sense of achievement from winning anything - just a sense of relief that the experience is over, and I can go to sleep.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 09:48 AM
My personal feeling from having all the grades in all subjects and all levels - is that (in retrospect) - what a waste of time.

I just wish my body wasn't in extreme pain - have no need whatsoever for any of the certificates required
- currently earning min wage where none of the certificates are necessary

- what a waste of time.

I would also suggest that with our attentional problem - to overcome it and do well in school will probably take extreme self-medication - and so don't be surprised if the high achievers are the ones who're in severe trouble from stress related consequences such as auto-immune/immune disorders later on in life ... ... and from the consequences of self-medication eg obesity/tooth decay/diabetes ... ...

SB_UK
11-10-14, 09:52 AM
Never heard of this guy before - he's saying something very important.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deschooling_Society
the book gives examples of the ineffectual nature of institutionalized education

So ... ... (and that chap's right) ... ... what does it say about you if you 'star' in a pointless endeavour ... ...

Lunacie
11-10-14, 10:07 AM
So - don't necessarily believe anybody who calls themself an expert.

.

I suppose Dr. Barkley calls himself a professional, which he has every right to do.

But does he actually call himself an expert? Surely it's others who call him that.

SB_UK
11-10-14, 10:48 AM
There's a pattern I've found of the researchers I'm quoting most often as having the condition or a close relative with condition as having particular insight into the problem.

The point being that they REALLY need to solve the question ie it's literally a matter of life and death.

Anyone who comes here will have the same motivation - but perhaps not the access to the same resources.

There's nothing that I've found particularly wrong with Barkley - but we're after what is ADHD ? and how to in effect eradicate it ?

- which is easily done if we see ADHD as nothing more than sensitivity within an insensitive environment.

What Barkley's looking at are consequences of stress - so he's further downstream of where we need to be.

And the great problem which Barkley will have is in ever seeing ADHD as a positively selected character which goes wrong in an insensitive world ... ... because most take the state of social relations (ie to hate thy neighbour) as being a fixed rule of nature ie not subject to human manipulation

- and rabbit on about gene modification (which really is not subject to human modification)

--- and so blindsided because there's a foundational error in medical research that the only thing that's open for us to change is not amenable to change - giving rise to a primitive abstraction layer view (ie the past ie of us having broken genes/nerves) - when it's actually how people interact in society which defines the distressful environment which activates the stress = what people call the disorder element in ADHD.

So sensitivity in an insensitive environment.

Am I sure ? Yes.

daveddd
11-10-14, 10:52 AM
Dizfriz,

You know Dr. Barkley's work well.

I am wondering if you could help me remember the title of Dr.Barkley's book with a chapter focusing on ADHD and Neural Darwinism?

If I remember correctly it was a book written in 2010? (Not sure)

I read the information in a different thread but forgot to write down the title of the book?

I would be really interested in what Dr. Barkley writes about neural Darwinism , so could consider and compare the information with what Dr. Mate writes about neural Darwinism.




P

That would be. Executive functions. What they are and how they work. (Think that's the title or close). Barkley 2012

SB_UK
11-10-14, 10:53 AM
You see - this is what's wrong with the medical establishment
- and quoting from the 'deschooling society' chap Illich above ... ...

"In his Medical Nemesis, first published in 1975, also known as Limits to Medicine, Illich subjected contemporary Western medicine to detailed attack. He argued that the medicalization in recent decades of so many of life's vicissitudes—birth and death, for example—frequently caused more harm than good and rendered many people in effect lifelong patients. He marshalled a body of statistics to show what he considered the shocking extent of post-operative side-effects and drug-induced illness in advanced industrial society. He introduced to a wider public the notion of iatrogenic disease [17] which had been scientifically established a century earlier by British nurse Florence Nightingale (1820–1910). Others have since voiced similar views,[18] but none so trenchantly, perhaps, as Illich."

Or very simply

for prevention is infinitely better than curethat makes you sicker

We can prevent ADHD disorder by setting up a fair society - there's no way we're going to stop ADHD sensitivity - 11% of 4-17 year olds in USA in 2011 and rising.

Hathor
11-10-14, 01:40 PM
All we need is an understanding of what ADHD is.

MeADD823 - largest contributor on site - has stated that her mind has a mind of its own.

That could be my description.

I can't force my mind to do anything.



http://blog.bullfishgraphics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bullbythehorns-281x300.jpg

mildadhd
11-10-14, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by TygerSan View Post
I do think that if he does have a bias it's towards a more negative outlook, but that's born out of his specific experiences.


This X1000


Those X1000


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.

mildadhd
11-10-14, 06:55 PM
Thanks a million Daveddd,

I would like to get a copy and discuss the topics more in the future.

Example,


(P 63)The Extended Phenotype of EF Pre-Executive Level CNC functions--Routine primary neuropsychological functions, for example, attention, memory, spatial and motor functions, primary emotions and motivations Behavior--Automatic activity;...

Russel A Barkley, "Executive Functions: What They Are, How They Work, and Why They Evolved", P 63.


http://www.amazon.com/Executive-Functions-What-They-Evolved-ebook/dp/B008CONJUY


I don't think I disagree with the biological mechanisms involved, as far as I can tell so far.

But I disagree with Dr.Barkley that "top down" executive (verbal) functions evolved before "bottom up" (preverbal) basic unconditioned primary emotions (pre executive functions) during early brain development.

If they did, "pre" executive functions would be called "post" executive functions.

Lack of Self regulation (EF) is very important piece of the puzzle but brain development is primarily emotional in early life.

Self regulation (EF) and memories are built upon early primary unconditioned emotional response systems and positive emotional experiences.







P

Lunacie
11-10-14, 07:06 PM
Thanks a million Daveddd,

I would like to get a copy and discuss the topics more in the future.

Example,





I don't think I disagree with the biological mechanisms involved, as far as I can tell so far.

But I disagree with Dr.Barkley that "top down" executive (verbal) functions evolved before "bottom up" (preverbal) unconditioned primary emotions (pre executive functions) during early brain development.

If they did, "pre" executive functions would be called "post" executive functions.

Brain development is primarily emotional in early life.

Emotional Self regulation (EF) is very important piece of the puzzle but ADHD is primarily emotional.







P

Where does Dr. Barkley say that? Got a link?

anonymouslyadd
11-10-14, 07:18 PM
Barkley is not warm and fuzzy but then again,neither is adhd.
Good point! However, what scientist is warm and fuzzy? Actually, Barkley is the rare scientist in the academic world because he communicates well. That's what makes him special among his peers.

Lunacie
11-10-14, 08:14 PM
I don't think Dr. Barkley is really negative.
His main audience isn't people who have ADHD and know what it's like.
It's ADHD-deniers who say it's not a real disorder or invalidate the struggles we deal with every minute of every day.

daveddd
11-10-14, 08:34 PM
I don't think Dr. Barkley is really negative.
His main audience isn't people who have ADHD and know what it's like.
It's ADHD-deniers who say it's not a real disorder or invalidate the struggles we deal with every minute of every day.

i don't think barkley is negative

his work is about a disorder

there isn't too many successful gifter researchers



maybe a couple who point out some traits that they see often

daveddd
11-10-14, 08:38 PM
is negativity a reason some don't like barkley, i wouldn't of guessed that

i just think a couple other researchers are much more thorough and less needlessly simplified

doesn't mean i don't like the guy

acdc01
11-10-14, 09:11 PM
is negativity a reason some don't like barkley, i wouldn't of guessed that


This is the primary reason I dislike Barkley though I do wonder if I'm in the minority. I'm not in medicine so my exposure to him is limited to forums, websites, and youtube.

I think the exposure to Barkley/ADHD I'm getting is probably what most newcomers like parents just finding out their kids are ADHD, bosses that want to know more about it because of an employee that has it, adults that just got diagnosed, etc. get exposed to.

And personally, I wish the newcomers would get a more neutral view of ADHD so a bit of a bummer to find out Barkley really is far and beyond the voice being heard most by the general public and newcomers.

But I can see Lunacie's point - it does seem reasonable most of these people would be in denial of the seriousness of ADHD when they first read about it. So don't really know whether a neutral or somewhat negative view would be better.

mctavish23
11-10-14, 11:06 PM
I don't know if there is someone who's considered THE (#1) Expert, but I DO KNOW For

a fact, that he IS considered to be one of the most respected ADHD researchers in the

world; irrespective of whether you like him or not. That has nothing to do with the

quality of his work. Is he opinionated ? Hell yes!! We all are. However, as he succintly

stated, "Subjective personal opinion isn't statistically significant."

tc

Robert

mildadhd
11-11-14, 01:31 AM
"Subjective personal opinion isn't statistically significant."


Nothing by itself is statistically significant.





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namazu
11-11-14, 02:08 AM
And personally, I wish the newcomers would get a more neutral view of ADHD so a bit of a bummer to find out Barkley really is far and beyond the voice being heard most by the general public and newcomers.
I'm not sure that he is the "voice of ADHD" to the general public in the same way he is known to researchers and clinicians (and many on this forum).

If I had to guess, I'd say that books like You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid, or Crazy? and Driven to Distraction (and its sequels), were/are more adults' introductions to learning about ADHD than are Barkley's books. They were among the earlier "self-help" books written specifically for people with ADHD (by people with ADHD).

My impression is that Barkley got into the self-help book market for adults with ADHD more recently. His earlier works (and most of what he still writes) were more scholarly in nature and were not really meant to be accessible to the typical ADHDer (or suspected ADHDer) trying to figure out whether ADHD was part of why their lives were the way they were and what to do about it.

His book, Taking Charge of ADHD, which was for parents of kids with ADHD, first came out in 1995, but he didn't publish the adult version until 2010. The two books I mentioned above, for adults, came out in 1995-1996, so Barkley's a bit late to the adult self-help game.

He's certainly had a large influence on the treatment of ADHD in adults, in part by publishing research showing the persistence and negative effects of ADHD into adulthood, but I don't think he's always been as prominent a public spokes-researcher as he's become on this forum and through recent dissemination of some of his lectures via YouTube.

I agree that he takes a rather pessimistic view of ADHD (at least, when undiagnosed and untreated or inadequately treated), though that's to a large extent informed by his research (and also the death of his brother, who had ADHD, in a car accident). But I think a lot of it is context -- in his recorded lectures for CADDAC, where he's trying to explain executive functions and how they are disrupted in ADHD, his goal is to educate (mostly parents) about the neuroscience of ADHD, not so much to act as a motivational speaker. The self-help books for adults have historically been much more upbeat and encouraging (and some would argue that they go too far in the other direction, making it sound like medication and a few simple tricks will magically allow people to release their hidden genius and live happily ever after).

So...long story short, I think there is more diversity in what ADHD newbies (whether adults with ADHD or parents of kids with ADHD) are exposed to, and it's not all doom and gloom.

mildadhd
11-11-14, 02:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cw8jHUkHiA

SB_UK
11-11-14, 05:42 AM
It certainly is very bad - but being told it's very bad - even worse than you'd thought isn't useful.

We just want to know what is it.
How to overcome it.

So - he's not wrong - just not too useful to us.

But he has been exceptional at drawing attention to the subject.

Which perhaps requires us to concentrate on the criminals and drug addicts with ADHD ... ... as nobody is going to fund research into the artists and scientists with it.

Once upon a time there was a stereotype of the 'absent-minded professor'
- that's us - 'cept it's far less cute when you've forgotten something essential (but dull).

SB_UK
11-11-14, 05:54 AM
Diabetes is very, very bad - but I just want to be told

- what is it ?
The effect of chronically fluctuating blood glucose levels

What to do about it ?
Stop 'em fluctuating

How ?
10 hours intense exercise per week, fasting, eat low carb vegan, elimination distress

-> with experimental proof.

-*-

And (sadly) the above applies pretty much to ADHD - but with an almost exclusive concentration on distress.

What Barkley calls disorder element of ADHD is just chronic distress in the stress sensitive.

mildadhd
11-11-14, 03:12 PM
Diabetes is very, very bad - but I just want to be told

- what is it ?
The effect of chronically fluctuating blood glucose levels

What to do about it ?
Stop 'em fluctuating

How ?
10 hours intense exercise per week, fasting, eat low carb vegan, elimination distress

-> with experimental proof.

-*-

And (sadly) the above applies pretty much to ADHD - but with an almost exclusive concentration on distress.

What Barkley calls disorder element of ADHD is just chronic distress in the stress sensitive.


Self control is slightly impaired, the self control that maybe required to complete "10 hours intense exercise per week, fasting, eat low carb vegan, elimination distress".

I am not saying it impossible, but possibly harder, especially when the family environment is not on the same page, possibly distressed themselves for similar reasons.

Some infants are even more sensitive (and reactive) than some other infants.

For me, some of the questions are, what period of development does the biological mechanisms involved in ADHD become impaired?

And what can be done during that period of development to promote healthy development?

That period of brain development is before the age of 4*

85% of the size of the adult brain develops before the age of 4* (takes approx 4.75 years)

15% of the size of the adult brain develops after the age of 4* (takes approx 14 years)

Note the rate and amount of development is much more, during a much shorter period of time, during the preverbal implicit stage of brain development before the age of 4*


P

SB_UK
11-11-14, 04:13 PM
https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/gif/brweight.gif
https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/dev.html

So - the brain weight is pretty much there by 4 or 5 years - ie the number of neurones or the growth process.

But we're looking at re-arrangement in learning -
- ie
Stage 1
Growth [genomic development] - carbs/protein

Stage 2 +HDAC inhibitors
Non-gowth - maintenance
Brain learning [neural connections] - quality - ketones

SB_UK
11-11-14, 04:22 PM
Development/growth phase = start of video ie 2 lines

But then as soon as they move/rearrange - is when the interest begins.

But the total weight of components at the start and end of the dance is the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoRPDm_2PPQ

mildadhd
11-11-14, 05:45 PM
http://www.ecmap.ca/PublishingImages/Page%20Images/sensitive_periods.JPG


Note peak period of sensitivity for "vision", "hearing", "habitual ways of responding", "emotional control" are approx age 1, with a dramatic decline, leveling out about the age of 4*

Neural development of these brain systems/circuits are most sensitive to environmental influences occurring during that time period.

This is when development of emotional self regulation (or not) is most sensitive and most influenced by emotionally distressful (preverbal) experiences.


P

tazoz
11-12-14, 02:49 PM
Moderator Note:

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Stevuke79
11-12-14, 07:03 PM
[B] I feel Barkley is a better businessman than psychologist..

The opposite is probably closer to the truth.

To my knowledge, none of his dissenters have nearly as much research and fact to back up their findings. But I'd be very interested to see if there are any who are comparable to him in that regard.

I would agree that his dissenters tend to have more appealing ideas. They do tend to sound more exciting whereas Barkley's explanations can be, as the truth often is, a little dry.

I have to strenuously disagree that Barkley is a better businessman than a psychiatrist.

He's a well-renowned researcher. I do think that if he does have a bias it's towards a more negative outlook, but that's born out of his specific experiences.

He's not the only researcher out there, but he does a good job of communicating with everyone, not just other researchers.

:goodpost::goodpost:

TygerSan
11-12-14, 07:36 PM
I have to say that what I've read of Barkley is mostly primary literature and technical books, so I suppose I can't really comment on the stuff that he's written for a more general audience. If his videos and presentations are any indication, though, he's pretty good.

That said, I do think that Hallowell and Ratey, and maybe even Amen (though I don't agree with his subtypes and imaging) may be a bit more accessible in terms of reading level, etc. If you're looking for a summary of research, rather than a more clinical and practical approach, I do think Barkley's your man.

For research on ADHD in girls, you can't go wrong with Quinn and Nadeau.

Stevuke79
11-12-14, 08:03 PM
One criticism of Barkley, which may be where his dissenters fill a void, he definitely views ADHD as a problem to solve. It's hinderance to overcome but which can never be eliminated.

Especially when you're first learning about your disorder and trying to figure out what's going on in your head, he doesn't give you much that is inspiring. It's a fair criticism - I think one could be just as scientific, but still be able to appeal to our more positive emotions.

Stevuke79
11-12-14, 09:27 PM
I'm curious, what would we say is the main complaint about Barkley?

My impression was that he sees ADHD as a disorder as opposed to something that makes us special, and that he attempts to "solve" rather than inspire.

But is that not the complaint we are discussing?

TygerSan
11-12-14, 10:03 PM
I think that as a researcher and clinician, he does tend to speak about the disorder of ADHD. And while it is true that ADHD is a damned hard thing to live with, and there are some real risks associated with it, if you apply what he's saying about the disorder as aw whole to individual people, and constantly focus on what's wrong, it can become incredibly demoralizing.

I do think that's less of an indictment of Barkley, personally, and more of a comment on human nature.

I've had a label of some sort since I entered school. It's surprising the types of behavior that can be attributed to or absolved by a generous application of a label, even when the reality of the situation is much more complex.

mildadhd
11-12-14, 10:34 PM
One of my biggest disagreements is the fact that some experts, completely ignore, and have never scientifically ruled of the obvious prenatal and post natal distress that occurs during adoptions, as a major contributing factor in (ADHD) adoption twin studies.

If I am wrong please, don't ignore the topic and show how the obvious distressful experiences, experienced throughout the adoption, during both prenatal and postnatal periods are ruled out as possible contributing factors in the underdevelopment/impairment associated with ADHD.

(Side Note, I am not saying that distress is the only contributing factor)





P

Stevuke79
11-13-14, 12:44 AM
One of my biggest disagreements is the fact that some experts, completely ignore, and have never scientifically ruled of the obvious prenatal and post natal distress that occurs during adoptions, as a major contributing factor in (ADHD) adoption twin studies.

If I am wrong please, don't ignore the topic and show how the obvious distressful experiences, experienced throughout the adoption, during both prenatal and postnatal periods are ruled out as possible contributing factors in the underdevelopment/impairment associated with ADHD.

(Side Note, I am not saying that distress is the only contributing factor)
P

I just want to clarify, is the lack of considering pre and post natal stress an example of a general problem with Barkley? Or is a lack of attention to this possibility, itself troubling? I could interpret you either way, but since it seems to make you find Barkley lacking in general, I suspect you mean the former. (Because if it's the latter, he has simply failed to explore one, albeit possibly very interesting, contributing factor.)

If it's the former, can we categorize the general deficiency in his approach? If it's the latter, what do you think is missing as a result of not considering this factor?

Btw, am I understanding so far or am I missing the point entirely? I'm known to be clueless from time to time.

daveddd
11-13-14, 07:03 AM
steve and tygersan,

the fact is none of your reasons are why i don't like barkley, the fact is his explanation of the inner workings of adhd just isn't that good

have you read thomas brown? have you read other literature on emotional regulation?

TygerSan
11-13-14, 07:26 AM
My thesis research had me reading a variety of ADHD primary literature. It just occurred to me that with Barkley, specifically, I haven't actually read the stuff that he's written for a more general audience, and I thought I ought to come clean about that.

The OP also asked who else might be a good example of an expert, so I thought I'd throw a few names that hadn't been mentioned out there as well, especially since ADHD in girls is still somewhat under emphasized.

I'm sorry if if seemed as though I were implying that the technical literature was above people. I've been reading it so long I forget how jargon laden and hard to parse it can be for someone unfamiliar with the vocabulary.

daveddd
11-13-14, 07:32 AM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=thomas%20brown%20top%20down%20emotion%20regulati on%20adhd&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adhd.is%2Fstatic%2Ffiles%2Fgr einasafn%2Fglaerur_Tok_a_tilveru%2F20.ppt&ei=P6KCUv6ZD4-E2wX7qID4BA&usg=AFQjCNHcXYFfPh0dKEAYzSFYBVa1UxM2Xg&sig2=hW0rnWvVP75XDMBWv26FMw

there is a reason brown had to include the work on "the unrecognized role of emotion in add" in his 2014 book

because the leading researchers led by barkley are extremely lacking about it

daveddd
11-13-14, 07:34 AM
My thesis research had me reading a variety of ADHD primary literature. It just occurred to me that with Barkley, specifically, I haven't actually read the stuff that he's written for a more general audience, and I thought I ought to come clean about that.

The OP also asked who else might be a good example of an expert, so I thought I'd throw a few names that hadn't been mentioned out there as well, especially since ADHD in girls is still somewhat under emphasized.

I'm sorry if if seemed as though I were implying that the technical literature was above people. I've been reading it so long I forget how jargon laden and hard to parse it can be for someone unfamiliar with the vocabulary.

I've read all of barleys books , technical, dumbed down, rating scales

i think its great for an outward picture of add

TygerSan
11-13-14, 07:39 AM
Fwiw, Browns books are definitely on my reading list. Smart but Stuck, especially looks interesting. I like his approach very much and if I had a lot of money to throw around, his is the practice I'd want to go to for evaluation.

Mantaray14
11-13-14, 07:46 AM
I do like Barkley's work, I really do. Just for the record, I'm not someone has been diagnosed with ADD, but am raising a diagnosed child and been hyper focused on the literature for a while.

For me it's a philosophical issue...Barkley's approach to science is a purely Western approach, or an Aristotelian approach that slices and dices and categorizes, but excludes the metaphysical realities. His research has many practical benefits, and discovered many insights about ADHD. But after a certain point, western medicine or scientific approach can become a hindrance, if attention is not given to the whole. Western Science has broken down Adhd to the cellular level, yet it is still a mystery. I have many examples of how this mode of thinking has negatively impacted how treatment is dispensed, not only with ADHD, but across the medical spectrum, especially in the US. I'm not talking about meds either. I just think cultivating strength, and foregoing negative outlook is of the upmost importance for a child, and have had a few bad experiences so I may have been soured by with these "establishment" negative outlook approaches. We have have been more sucessful and happier family unit by avoiding them.

tazoz
11-13-14, 07:46 AM
Moderator Note:

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anonymouslyadd
11-15-14, 03:32 PM
i don't think barkley is negative

his work is about a disorder

there isn't too many successful gifter researchers
If Louis Pasteur, who discovered a vaccine for Rabies, gave a talk on Rabies, would he describe the wonderful effects of it or would he describe its symptoms?

daveddd
11-15-14, 03:43 PM
If Louis Pasteur, who discovered a vaccine for Rabies, gave a talk on Rabies, would he describe the wonderful effects of it or would he describe its symptoms?

i imagine the symptoms

although personally, i have trouble likening adhd to a viral infection

disorder yes, gift no, but more than just symptoms, yes


i feel even barkley somewhat acknowledges that here

http://books.google.com/books?id=KStJo6hRS48C&pg=PA57&dq=barkley+best+sales+people+i+know&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KaxnVN-iI8qNyATY6YHYCg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=barkley%20best%20sales%20people%20i%20know&f=false

daveddd
11-15-14, 04:02 PM
one other small reason why i slighty prefer say, brown (adhd) or gross, siegal ((emotional regulation) over barkley. Barkleys work on patients with poor ER tend to focus on mainly people who emote strongly and obviously

where the others recognize the large group that poor emotional regulation causes emotional avoidance . (suppression, flat, unemotional)

this can be 30-40% of the ADHD population, significant in my opinion

anonymouslyadd
11-15-14, 04:06 PM
i imagine the symptoms

although personally, i have trouble likening adhd to a viral infection

disorder yes, gift no, but more than just symptoms, yes


i feel even barkley somewhat acknowledges that here

http://books.google.com/books?id=KStJo6hRS48C&pg=PA57&dq=barkley+best+sales+people+i+know&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KaxnVN-iI8qNyATY6YHYCg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=barkley%20best%20sales%20people%20i%20know&f=false
Pick your disorder. Pick your disease. I'm arguing on principle, the extent and severity of symptoms. Any researcher discussing a disorder or disease, would discuss the symptoms associated with the disorder or disease. Many deem Barkley as negative. He's direct and frank, not negative. Would it help you if he dressed up like Big Bird or acted like a grandfather-type and described the disordered?

I browsed the link you shared. I still think its a stretch and potentially dangerous to suggest that ADD can lead you into a great profession.

I think it's important to remember who we are as people. We are not ADD, as some may say. We're human beings and have feelings, thoughts and a conscience. We are individuals by nature and are not defined by a disorder. Although, if not managed, our disorder could define us.

daveddd
11-15-14, 04:11 PM
Pick your disorder. Pick your disease. I'm arguing on principle, the extent and severity of symptoms. Any research discussing a disorder or disease, would discuss the symptoms associated with the disorder or disease. Many deem Barkley as negative. I view him as a realist, using data to come to opinions.

I browsed the link you shared. I still think its a stretch and potentially dangerous to suggest that ADD can lead you into a great profession.

I think it's important to remember who we are as people. We are not ADD, as some may say. We're human beings and have feelings, thoughts and a conscience. We are individuals by nature and are not defined by a disorder. Although, if not managed, our disorder could define our lives.

id feel the same about any disease

according to barkley, the core of ADHD is poor emotional regulation, unregulated emotions are experienced much differently then regulated ones

this includes positive and negative

i don't think its dangerous that barkley suggest that people with adhd can be much more emotionally passionate than NTS

this is an area that i strongly agree with barkley on

anonymouslyadd
11-15-14, 04:18 PM
i don't think its dangerous that barkley suggest that people with adhd can be much more emotionally passionate than NTS

this is an area that i strongly agree with barkley on
I never said it was dangerous to suggest that we're more passionate. I said it could be dangerous to suggest that having an ADD symptom might lead someone to a great career.

daveddd
11-15-14, 04:20 PM
I never said it was dangerous to suggest that we're more passionate. I said it could be dangerous to suggest that having an ADD symptom might lead someone to a great career.

got ya, i think passion can lead to a great career, of course it would require a large amount of assistants and planners and organizers

TygerSan
11-15-14, 04:30 PM
So here's the thing: ADHD is pervasive. It infiltrates just about every aspect of our lives. There are viral infections that do that too, sure, but it's easier to say, take an antiviral or antibiotic (or take the series of vaccinations for rabies) and eradicate the infection.

I do know there are many people for whom ADHD is similar; take the meds, and hope desperately for a cure. Personally, since it's something I've always dealt with, I honestly don't know what's ADHD and what's just my personality. I'd love to be better organized, less of a screw up, better able to regulate my emotions, sure.

But I sure as heck didn't realize how insulting it could be to imply that ADHD was simply a problem to be fixed, until I worked with someone who didn't much like me and my approach to problems. I made a big mistake and told this person about my ADHD, and every.single.damned.thing that went wrong between us became about my ADHD and how I needed treatment. I was reduced to a Problem Needing To Be Solved. And when there isn't an easy way to solve the problem (like taking antibiotics), well that's demoralizing as all get out.

And so while I really appreciate that researchers like Barkley and Brown and others regard ADHD as a problem to be solved, and focus on weaknesses we have, I find that applying that to my personal doesn't work that well for me, personally.

It's also dangerous, sometimes, to pathologize behavior, ascribing everything to a disorder instead of a person. At the worst, that type of thinking assumes that we don't have enough insight and agency to make our own decisions (and there are stories one here occasionally about how legitimate medical concerns are minimized by doctors because everything is ascribed to be psychological), or to give us an out in a situation where it's easier to not hold us accountable than it is to make a reasonable accommodation and supports available (my being excused from notebook checks in high school rather than having someone help me with organizational strategies would be an example of that).

I don't think that ADHD is a gift, to be clear. It's a big, complex, messy part of who I am.

daveddd
11-15-14, 04:40 PM
If Louis Pasteur, who discovered a vaccine for Rabies, gave a talk on Rabies, would he describe the wonderful effects of it or would he describe its symptoms?

just to be clear, you do realize i was saying i didn't think barkley was negative in the post you quoted me in right?

i can't tell if you were agreeing or disagreeing in the post

TygerSan
11-15-14, 04:45 PM
About the passion thing, I was thinking about those lists of successful CEOs with dyslexia,ADHD, etc.

Anyone who performs at that level needs resilience, perseverance and determination in abundance, along with at least outward confidence. It occurred to me that one thing that happens if you're not quite standardly neurologically wired is that you hear the words no, stop, and don't a lot, along with what were you thinking?

I can imagine someone who has had less experience with someone in authority saying, no,that's not possible, deflating and letting go of an idea. I could see someone like the CEO of FedEx whose marketing project wasn't particularly well-received, saying screw it, they said I'd never learn how to read, either. Let's see how well this works.

I developed a healthy delight in destroying others expectations of me, once I was able to let go of self esteem being tied to what others thought of me.

anonymouslyadd
11-15-14, 04:52 PM
If Louis Pasteur, who discovered a vaccine for Rabies, gave a talk on Rabies, would he describe the wonderful effects of it or would he describe its symptoms?
The purpose of this example was to look at the relationship between a scientist and symptoms of a disorder. Pasteur is also very well-known. ADD and Rabies are very different, but they have symptoms.

anonymouslyadd
11-15-14, 04:58 PM
just to be clear, you do realize i was saying i didn't think barkley was negative in the post you quoted me in right?

i can't tell if you were agreeing or disagreeing in the post
I appreciate you asking this question. I know you didn't say that Barkley was negative. You said his work was negative.

It seems likely to expect a scientist, who specializes in researching a disorder, to discuss symptoms and then treatment of those symptoms. That was my point.

daveddd
11-15-14, 05:02 PM
I appreciate you asking this question. I know you didn't say that Barkley was negative. You said his work was negative.

It seems likely to expect a scientist, who specializes in researching a disorder, to discuss symptoms and then treatment of those symptoms. That was my point.

thought so, ok cool

i don't think his work is negative, i just like a few others better

mildadhd
11-15-14, 07:04 PM
I like all people who recognize and help hyperkinetic and other people who may require types of accommodations.

I am sure Dr Mate's balanced, healthy negative and healthy positive, approach to understanding factors in origin and treatment has definitely helped me understand how to manage my impairment better, as well has help me understand how to promote long term healthy emotional development in my family and community environment.

Contexts are such huge factors in these discussions.

One of many reasons why I also really like Dr. Panksepp's primary psychological feelings approach is because these 7 known biologically separate basic primary unconditioned emotional response systems are neuropsychobiologically the same in all humans, before the individual context and complexity of subjective experiences occurs.



P