View Full Version : Neurodevelopment and emotion from 0-4 years


SB_UK
11-12-14, 09:55 AM
Peripheral:"Neurodevelopment between 0-4 yrs - **relevance** to ADHD"

PLEASE CORRECT SENTENCES - THEY MAY NOT BE REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED

1.Peripheral believes that neurodevelopment between 0 - 4 years is of crucial importance to understanding ADHD
2.Neurodevelopment:
Peripheral link 1
http://centerforchildwelfare2.fmhi.usf.edu/kb/chronicneglect/childexperience.pdf
Peripheral link 1
https://www.ecmap.ca/Early-Childhood-Development/Pages/How-the-Brain-Develops.aspx

I can't work out the connection yet.

Is this it ?

1. Distress in the period 0 - 4 years is associated can be associated with drug use (deranged reward system operation) later in life.
2. ADHD - where we're required to supply additional reward and where the ADDer can (in the absence of reward) demonstrate drug-seeking behaviours.

Therefore all that ADHD is - is distress in the period 0 - 4 years giving rise to the same basic pattern of drug seeking behaviour as described in the 2 refs above.

Is that the idea ?

I can't work out if that's what's meant.

SB_UK
11-12-14, 10:02 AM
So - in that model of ADHD - the idea is that we're simply broken.

Fair enough.

-*-

But the simple response to it (through my experience of ADHD) is that if that were true - I wouldn't be able to specify a relatively simple environmental context (ie silence in the sun) experimentally validated where I'm unbelievably happy.

VERY simply - if you're an alcoholic (which we a variant of in the presentation above which may or may not be Peripheral's presentation of ADHD) - then you'll NEVER be happy unless you've alcohol.

We're different - we're not addicted to anything - we're driven mad by distress in this society and are ideally placed away from everything bar sun and natural food (the 2 physiological necessities of food and shelter) ... where we're happy.

So - it's impossible to be sure what the exact connection Peripheral has in mind between 0-4 years neurodev and ADHD is ... ... but if it's the similarity between extreme distress in the period 0-4yrs and addictive type behaviour development -
then that idea can be rejected from my personal experience that I'm not happy unless I've some 'drug' - I'm happy when I've nothing other than sun and olives ie natural shelter and natural food.

However - the similarity between the type which we see after severe neglect 0-4 years and ADDers - is simply caused by the sensitive ADDer's distress in the society we're born into - forcing addictive like behaviours in the form of stress relief in order to comply.

So - in Peripheral's rat park - the rats only desired drugs (morphine) when stressed.

SB_UK
11-12-14, 10:04 AM
So - once again -
we're absolutely fine.

We represent sensitivity.

That's a good thing - however not in an incorrectly insensitive environment.

SB_UK
11-12-14, 10:07 AM
Now - the idea that we're naturally broken verses we're naturally good to go and are broken in an insensitive environment is SIMPLE to test.

I did the experiment over Summer - 2 weeks of sun (in the UK !!) without kids and a dog, fasting, exercise, veganism, not at work but still being paid (school holidays)

ie silence in the sun

-- and that's as good as it gets.

The alcoholic would simply take all available time to sit in a pub.

mildadhd
11-12-14, 02:46 PM
SB_UK

Thanks for asking!

List of factors, off the bottom, middle and top of my head.

(I am sure there will be other factors to add as we discuss)

Please ask again if I do not answer your questions.

Any information not quoted is my own interpretation, please ask for accurate quotes and research if interested.

(Paraphrasing what I learned from reading Dr. Mate's and other experts' work so far.)



-The critical period of development for human emotional self regulation, is before the age of 4* (*give or take)

-Born with a more emotionally hypersensitive temperament

-Emotional distress (perceived or real)

-Emotional pain (real/physical)

-Anxiety, depression and addiction (emotional pain) are the 3 most common ADHD emotional commorbidities

-ADHD

-More emotional distress

-More emotional pain

-Alcohol, etc = anesthesia/anesthetic for emotional pain, self medicate commoribdities and ADHD.


Anesthesia
1. loss of sensation, usually by damage to a nerve or receptor.
2. loss of the ability to feel pain, caused by administration of a drug or other medical intervention.


http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/anesthesia


P

SB_UK
11-12-14, 03:31 PM
SB_UK

Thanks for asking!

List of factors, off the bottom, middle and top of my head.

(I am sure there will be other factors to add as we discuss)

Please ask again if I do not answer your questions.

Any information not quoted is my own interpretation, please ask for accurate quotes and research if interested.

(Paraphrasing what I learned from reading Dr. Mate's and other experts' work so far.)



-The critical period of development for human emotional self regulation, is before the age of 4* (*give or take)

-Born with a more emotionally hypersensitive temperament

-Emotional distress (perceived or real)

-Emotional pain (real/physical)

-Anxiety, depression and addiction (emotional pain) are the 3 most common ADHD emotional commorbidities

-ADHD

-More emotional distress

-More emotional pain

-Alcohol, etc = anesthesia/anesthetic for emotional pain, self medicate commoribdities and ADHD.



P

Exactly - extreme distress 0-4 years gives us something that looks like adhd disorder.

But that's because adhd disorder is a consequence of chronic distress exposure.

It's just in one case it's extreme sub-human treatment breakage and in our case it's sensitivity in insensitive environment.

SB_UK
11-12-14, 03:41 PM
If we look at Peripheral's Perry paper - the broken model of brain is smaller everywhere - the adder brain isn't like that - it's only smaller in certain specific places.

SB_UK
11-12-14, 04:00 PM
I think - simply that if it doesn't produce reward and if it's not neutral (ie aversive) - then yes ... ... PAIN ... ...

- and my essential issue with education, competition, earning money and many more - neither produce reward and are all aversive.

Education - but I don't want to know anything you're forcing me too compete against others in.
Competition - but I don't want to beat anybody - I'll feel bad.
Earning money - but every penny extra I get - somebody else doesn't.

-*-

There's nothing wrong with ADDers.
Simply more sensitive at the empathizing/systematizing and sensory informational levels.
Driven mad by the empathizing/systematizing and sensory informational landscape in current society.

We're right in the middle of Planet of the Apes - with the largest rabid ones with minds of Napoleon (Animal Farm) in charge.

Rabid apes with minds of tyrannical pigs - I give you our current world.

Nobody is any better than anybody else.

SB_UK
11-12-14, 04:13 PM
ADDer reward system requires

Empathizing - deep (true) communication
Systematizing - elegance with moral context
Sensory - fine art (music)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuG39sZxMp8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTY9OFq-sbM&list=PLE0E2E42234763A19&index=5)


Empathizing - kick thy neighour in the face for money is thy only concern
Systematizing - double think able (sophist) for money only
Sensory - plastic (for money only) music


The mind represents the convergence of 3 'new' systems.
Empathizing
Systematizing
Sensory

- and these complete with ADDer.

-*-

We have mechanism of mind.

mildadhd
11-12-14, 04:17 PM
If we look at Peripheral's Perry paper - the broken model of brain is smaller everywhere - the adder brain isn't like that - it's only smaller in certain specific places.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI


Note the connections Dr Gilchrist makes between "implicit" Function and specifically the right hemisphere.

The critical period of development of emotional self regulation, is also the preverbal implicit stage of development, before the age of 4

Emotional distress during the critical period of development slightly interfers with normal implicit right brain development, emotional self regulation etc..

The right orbits frontal cortex is not the only brain area involved in ADHD but it is most affected.

There is no brain damage, but underdevelopment.


I learned a lot about my own impairment, while considering the normal implicit "jobs"/functions of the ROFC work, and how those functions would be slightly under developed due to emotional distress...reduced blood flow, as well as other lower areas of the dopamergic pathways, could be affected by distress.

Dr. Mate discusses and gives lots of examples about how infants and primary caregivers emotionally communicate with their eyes, sound, smell, etc, before we learn to talk, etc...

As well as the roles "jobs" of the right orbito frontal cortex, etc.

I am not finished, I need to go out for the day, but I have good idea what information I want to accurately quote when I get home.







P

SB_UK
11-12-14, 04:17 PM
ADDers are definitely an emergent event post-Homo sapiens sapiens.

Homo neosapiens sapienses.

-*-

And what we need now is a fair society.

SB_UK
11-12-14, 04:43 PM
Decreased callosal thickness in attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18842255

Lunacie
11-12-14, 04:57 PM
Exactly - extreme distress 0-4 years gives us something that looks like adhd disorder.

But that's because adhd disorder is a consequence of chronic distress exposure.

It's just in one case it's extreme sub-human treatment breakage and in our case it's sensitivity in insensitive environment.

I agree that extreme distress in the first years can result in something that looks like ADHD.

I don't think chronic distress in the first years is the only root of ADHD.
Clearly there are a lot of children who live in supportive loving families
who develop ADHD.

As you mention, in cases of severe trauma the brain is smaller everywhere -
but in those with ADHD only parts of the brain are smaller than typical.

mildadhd
11-12-14, 09:22 PM
I agree that extreme distress in the first years can result in something that looks like ADHD.

I don't think chronic distress in the first years is the only root of ADHD.
Clearly there are a lot of children who live in supportive loving families
who develop ADHD.

As you mention, in cases of severe trauma the brain is smaller everywhere -
but in those with ADHD only parts of the brain are smaller than typical.

I think it would help if we understood the function of the orbits frontal cortex (OFC) better.

Could we return to a discussion about the types of distress that could slightly impair (~ 5%) the development of the OFC, after focusing the discussion more on understanding the role of the (OFC) orbit frontal cortex and its connection to dopaminergic pathways, etc?





p

mildadhd
11-13-14, 12:33 AM
(p 77) BEHIND THE FOREHEAD in the vicinity of the right eye is where one of the most important regulatory centers in the brain is located: the orbitofrontal cortex. (*1)

It is part of the prefrontal cortex, that area of the gray matter most involved in social intelligence, impulse control and attention.

It is also important in short-term working memory.

The orbitofrontal cortex--so named because of its proximity to the eye socket, known as the orbit--is more developed on the right side and appears to dominate its counterpart in the left hemisphere...


(p 78)...Nature's goal for human growth is for the eventual maturation of a self-motivated, self-regulated and self-reliant adult.

The infant lacks these attributes.

We may say that the natural agenda is really the transformation of regulation from dependence on another individual to independence, from external regulation to internal regulation.

This shift from external to internal regulation requires the development of the prefrontal cortex, the cortex in the very anterior portion of the brain, including and especially the orbito-frontal cortex.


The right orbitofrontal cortex, which for the sake of brevity we will call the OFC, has connections with virtually every other part of the cortex.

It also has rich connections with the lower brain structures, where the body's internal physiological states are controlled and monitored, and where the most primitive and powerful emotions such as fear and rage are generated.

It is at the center of the brain's reward and motivation apparatus and contains more of the reward chemicals associated with pleasure and joy--dopamine and endorphins--than almost any other area of the cortex.


The OFC has a major role in the control of attention.

From all the information about the external environment and internal body states entering our brain, the OFC helps to pick out what to focus on.

While the explicit meaning of words spoken is analysed in the left hemisphere, the right OFC interprets the emotional content of communications--the other person's body language, eye movements and tone of voice.

It carries out a constant and instantaneous computation of the emotional significance of situations.

It is deeply concerned with the assessment of relationships between the self and others.

According to a number of studies, it is "dominant for the processing, expression, and regulation of emotional information." (*2)




The OFC also functions in impulse control, helping to inhibit the lower centers in the brain where urgent emotional drives originate.

When it is working smoothly, it can delay emotional reactions long enough to allow mature, more sophisticated responses to emerge.

When its connections are disrupted, it lacks this capacity.

At such times primitive, unprocessed emotions will flood our minds, overwhelm our thinking processes and control our behavior.


Finally, the OFC records and stores the emotional effects of experiences, first and foremost the infant's interactions with his or her primary caregivers during the early months and years.

Its imprinting of the earliest interactions with the primary caregivers is the unconscious model from which all later emotional reactions and interactions will be formed.

Groups of neurons in the OFC encode the emotional footprints of these important experiences--footprints in which, willy-nilly, we tend to follow later in life, again and again and again.



-Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", Chapter 10 "The Footprints of Infancy" P 77-79.




i!i i!i i!i

SB_UK
11-13-14, 08:45 AM
I agree that extreme distress in the first years can result in something that looks like ADHD.

I don't think chronic distress in the first years is the only root of ADHD.
Clearly there are a lot of children who live in supportive loving families
who develop ADHD.

As you mention, in cases of severe trauma the brain is smaller everywhere -
but in those with ADHD only parts of the brain are smaller than typical.

Exactly.

SB_UK
11-13-14, 09:00 AM
The OFC is ... thought to represent emotion and reward in decision making.[4]So - all the way through this exercise - I'm suggesting.

Selfish decision-making process (eg beat person) -> Feel happy [EMOTION] <- REWARD
vs
Social decision-making process (eg help person) -> Feel happy [EMOTION] <- REWARD

And I'm suggesting that I have none of the 'Selfish' decision making capacity and am only motivated by 'Social' decision making capacity.

Any idiot can beat another person <- this is the primitive reward system

Not anybody can collaborate with another person to make the world better <- this is the properly human (moral/social) reward system.

So ... presumably we have the capacity for:
Selfish decision-making process (eg beat person) -> Feel happy <- REWARD
Social decision-making process (eg help person) -> Feel happy <- REWARD

... and I'm suggesting that if we can eliminate:
Selfish decision-making process (eg beat person) -> Feel happy <- REWARD

- then the world will be a better place because:
Social decision-making process (eg help person) -> Feel happy <- REWARD
would be our motivation.

-*-

If the ADDer has a reduction in the OFC - I'd suggest it's caused by simply losing the neural machinery which encodes:
Selfish decision-making process (eg beat person) -> Feel happy <- REWARD

SB_UK
11-13-14, 09:07 AM
Summarising

[1] This article (http://m.today.duke.edu/2012/12/socialprimate) shows that from an evolutionary perspective - the ape has both the capacity to derive reward from selfish (taking) and social (giving) behaviours.

[2] That requires 2 sets of circuits:
Selfish decision-making process (eg beat person) -> Feel happy [EMOTION] <- REWARD
vs
Social decision-making process (eg help person) -> Feel happy [EMOTION] <- REWARD

[3] The ADDer is the end-point in evolution of that system representing the emergence of an enforcedly social organism which of course has no requirement for the selfish circuitry, and so when examined appears to display a brain which is smaller in certain key (with the OFC representing one of those) areas.

SB_UK
11-13-14, 09:18 AM
Thing is - that we can nail the neural mechanism if you like ... ... but I know that the story is true.

It's not rewarding to the ADDer to beat another person - that just doesn't produce a sense of reward ... ...

SB_UK
11-13-14, 09:29 AM
http://www.futurehealth.org/populum/pageproduct.php?f=Function-and-Dysfunction-o-by-Futurehealth-081103-432.html
This presentation will make the case that the ROFC is the master regulator of the brain and body, and the primary location of the "self", the place where the "I" is located.

So - to lose 'self'-ish behaviours - we'd probably expect the ROFC to take a 'hit'
- an essential part of the transition to enforcedly social operation exactly as we see elsewhere in nature in other organisms.

SB_UK
11-13-14, 09:35 AM
Personally - 'I' can't use 'I' and prefer 'one' because 'I' feels egotistical.

SB_UK
11-13-14, 09:39 AM
Yes - it's ironic that the same place can either be destroyed through stress/in development and abuse - as is reduced in ADHD ... ... but that's because ego and addiction operate through the same system ie

I will beat this person at something <- reward
Material world reward (alcohol, money, power) <- reward

are tied ... ... in fact:
Material world reward (power) <- reward
= equals =
I will beat this person at something <- reward

SB_UK
11-13-14, 10:17 AM
RESULTS:

The visual attention network showed significantly reduced local-efficiency and nodal-efficiency in frontal and occipital regions in ADHD. Measures of degree and between-centrality pointed to hyper-functioning in anterior cingulate cortex and hypo-functioning in orbito-frontal, middle-occipital, superior-temporal, supra-central, and supra-marginal gyri in ADHD.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24688465

The orbital frontal cortex, right above the eyes, was activated when calculating rewards to the self. The anterior cingulate sulcus in the middle of the top of the brain seemed to calculate giving up a reward. But both centers appear "divorced from social context," Platt said. A third area, the anterior cingulate gyrus (ACCg), seemed to "care a lot about what happened to the other monkey," Platt said. - See more at:
http://m.today.duke.edu/2012/12/socialprimate#sthash.ptlt7mGu.dpuf (http://m.today.duke.edu/2012/12/socialprimate#sthash.ptlt7mGu.dpuf)

Conclusion
ADHD [== sensitivity at empathic, systematizing and sensory levels] represents emergence of a social species.

SB_UK
11-13-14, 10:31 AM
There's no chance of refuting the idea - as I've now enough science and personal experience (an undeniable combination) to unequivocally back the idea.

SB_UK
11-13-14, 11:03 AM
Conclusion
ADHD [== sensitivity at empathic, systematizing and sensory levels] represents the pained emergence of a social species in an anti-social environment.

SB_UK
11-13-14, 11:04 AM
.
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..
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Lunacie
11-13-14, 11:20 AM
Summarising

[1] This article (http://m.today.duke.edu/2012/12/socialprimate) shows that from an evolutionary perspective - the ape has both the capacity to derive reward from selfish (taking) and social (giving) behaviours.

[2] That requires 2 sets of circuits:

[3] The ADDer is the end-point in evolution of that system representing the emergence of an enforcedly social organism which of course has no requirement for the selfish circuitry, and so when examined appears to display a brain which is smaller in certain key (with the OFC representing one of those) areas.

Conclusion
ADHD [== sensitivity at empathic, systematizing and sensory levels] represents the pained emergence of a social species in an anti-social environment.

I hope humanity continues to evolve for a long, long time, so that we are not the "end-point."

I admit that we don't mesh well with society as a whole, but I think there have always
been people with ADHD so this isn't anything new or emerging.

SB_UK
11-13-14, 12:33 PM
I hope humanity continues to evolve for a long, long time, so that we are not the "end-point."

I admit that we don't mesh well with society as a whole, but I think there have always
been people with ADHD so this isn't anything new or emerging.

2003: 7.8%
2007: 9.5%
2011: 11 %

The CDC says that 11 percent of American children, ages 4 to 17, have the attention disorder. That’s an increase of 42 percent in just eight years.
- See more at: http://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/facts-statistics-infographic#2

The standard argument is increased awareness - but this is something more ... ...

Emergence of a brood.

Lunacie
11-13-14, 12:59 PM
I think the main reason for the increase in diagnosis is increase in awareness.

In 2003 I didn't know anything about ADHD.
By 2007 I did, but neither myself or my granddaughter had been diagnosed yet.

mildadhd
11-13-14, 01:33 PM
Could we stop here and discuss what has been presented so far?

I have a few questions, I would like to fine tune.

There are a few topics I would like to present, review, discuss and understand better.



**discussing topics in 3 levels of brain control processes, from both bottom up and top down (leaving body below the PAG out of the discussion for now)

(paraphrasing Dr. Panksepp, and other experts, anything not quoted is my own interpretation.)

#3)tertiary processes (awareness/self regulation) neocortex (conscious)

#2)secondary processes (learning/memory) upper limbic (unconscious)

#1)primary processes (primary emotional, homeostatic, sensory feelings) lower subcortex (conscious)


Note that the subcortex and the neocortex are both conscious, and that subcortex consciousness precedes neocortex consciousness. Example, consciousness does exist without a neocortex, but consciousness does not exist without a subcortex.





***Also

What may be true during the stage of development before the age of 4*
May not be true during the stage of development..

-Before conception
-Before birth

-Before the age of 10
-Before the age of 18
-Before the age of 44
-Before the age of 144





If in discussion we specify ** which #1 primary, #2 secondary or #3 tertiary brain level of control , *** and which age/stage of development is being focused on in thread and post discussions.

We would realize that many times members appear to be disagreeing in thread discussions, but really there is a possibility that everyone agrees but focusing on different contexts of ages/developmental stages and brain states/processes, experiences etc.


In my next post I will give another example.


P

mildadhd
11-13-14, 03:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCAGc-rkIfo


(Approx. 204:25)

If you think parenting is so influential,

let me give me give you two findings that have been replicated many times,

when we follow up twins,

we are able to calculate how much of their behavior,

is due to parenting, within family environment.

And here is what we find, the peak years of parental influence are below 7,

from 7 up to 12, it drops dramatically .

After 15 is 6%

6% of the variation in a teenagers behavior is how their parents raised them.

That's it.

and after age 21 it is zero.

there is no influence of parenting on any psychological trait,

after the age of 21. (Dr. Barkley)






Example about two people whose conclusions appear to disagree, but really agree.

The difference is the context of the ages/stages/brain states/ brain processes, being focused upon.




In the quote above focusing on family environmental developmental parental influences on behavior.

Before the age of 7 are the peak years environmental influence

Before the age of 12 there is a dramatic decline.

Before the age of 16 there is a 6% influence.

Before the age of 21 there is a 0% influence.

Dr Barkley then makes the conclusion that there is "zero" family/parental environmental influence on behavior after the age of 21.

Dr. Barkley is not wrong, if we are discussing the period of development after the age of 21, and much more mature adult primary, secondary and tertiary levels of brain control.

But if I focus on the same research as Dr. Barkley, from his own twin studies /findings , but am focusing on the early period of development before the age of 4.

(I am focusing on different early age/stage of development, unconditioned primary emotional response systems + early emotional experiences period of development, secondary and tertiary processes of self regulation (EF) functions are still immature and underdeveloped, etc)

I would conclude that the early years of development are the peak period of family environmental/parental influence on behavior.

I am not wrong either, I am focusing on development before age of 4, on development from the bottom up.


P

SB_UK
11-13-14, 03:49 PM
If in discussion we specify ** which #1 primary, #2 secondary or #3 tertiary brain level of control

http://www.bible.ca/psychiatry/phrenology-triune-brain.jpg

SB_UK
11-13-14, 03:53 PM
Are Peripheral's 3 layers of control the same as the 3 layers in the picture above ?

SB_UK
11-13-14, 04:00 PM
I would conclude that the early years of development are the peak period of family environmental/parental influence on behavior.



Does anybody disagree ?
And is this true for nonADDers and ADDers ?

The ADDer has the 3/4 (Kunga Dorji) developmental delay - and so wouldn't you have thought that the curves for the ADDer'd be different ?

Haven't thought about this - but if the 9 year old ADDer behaves like a 6 year old ... ... then perhaps all of these curves need correcting in the ADDer.

mildadhd
11-13-14, 04:19 PM
The picture is close.


(Paraphrasing Dr. Panksepp, anything not quoted is my interpretation)

Focusing on the primary emotional systems.

SEEKING system , FEAR system, RAGE system (reptilian realm)

SEEKING system, FEAR system, RAGE system, LUST system, CARE system, PANIC/GRIEF system, PLAY system (mammalian realm)





Focusing on #1 primary, #2 secondary, and #3 tertiary levels of emotional brain control.

#3) Neocortex is involved in tertiary level emotional self regulation and awareness.

#2)Upper Limbic System is involved in secondary level emotional memories and learning.

#1) All 7 subcortical primary emotional response systems can be electrically stimulated in areas of the PAG (brainstem/ midbrain), in all mammals researched.






P

mildadhd
11-13-14, 05:36 PM
Does anybody disagree ?
And is this true for nonADDers and ADDers ?

The ADDer has the 3/4 (Kunga Dorji) developmental delay - and so wouldn't you have thought that the curves for the ADDer'd be different ?

Haven't thought about this - but if the 9 year old ADDer behaves like a 6 year old ... ... then perhaps all of these curves need correcting in the ADDer.

I have been wondering...not sure... if the dramatic decline of the critical period of emotion regulation about the age of 4, is the same for an infant born with a more hypersensitive temperament?

If the decline in this critical period of development, occurs at ruffly the same period in all children around the age of 4, a more emotionally distressed hypersensitive child might literally run out of time to completely develop emotional regulation, and a slight impairment in the OFC may be the result?

Also if I consider the rapid rate of development and enormous amount of development that occurs before the age of 4*

Impairment due to time spent in the negative emotional distress mode (fight RAGE system or flight FEAR response) or GRIEF system separation distressful environment would have a greater effect in possible slight impairment/ slight immaturity during the critical period of development of self regulation, and less effect after the decline in the more sensitive period of development?

Slight immaturity that continues with experience through out life, in my experience the space between 30 % developmental delay increased over time.

Example I was one year behind my peers at around the age of 4, but feel about 8 years behind my peers at about the age of 44?

This is what partly makes this period of development before the age of 4 so important and interesting to me.

If the emotional distress is minimized during the critical most sensitive period of development, impairment may also be minimized and the hypersensitive child may even benefit from a hypersensitive temperament?

Some other children might simply be developing faster, or slower than their peers?

These are questions to add to the discussion not conclusions.



P

daveddd
11-13-14, 06:34 PM
Does anybody disagree ?
And is this true for nonADDers and ADDers ?

The ADDer has the 3/4 (Kunga Dorji) developmental delay - and so wouldn't you have thought that the curves for the ADDer'd be different ?

Haven't thought about this - but if the 9 year old ADDer behaves like a 6 year old ... ... then perhaps all of these curves need correcting in the ADDer.

that makes sense

i remember some vague and scattered literature

the teen years being a little more important in emotional development for adhd/or similar disabilities

mildadhd
11-13-14, 08:50 PM
Does anybody disagree ?
And is this true for nonADDers and ADDers ?

The ADDer has the 3/4 (Kunga Dorji) developmental delay - and so wouldn't you have thought that the curves for the ADDer'd be different ?

Haven't thought about this - but if the 9 year old ADDer behaves like a 6 year old ... ... then perhaps all of these curves need correcting in the ADDer.

that makes sense

i remember some vague and scattered literature

the teen years being a little more important in emotional development for adhd/or similar disabilities

Hmm,

Are we born with a 3/4 developmental delay?




P

Lunacie
11-13-14, 08:59 PM
Does anybody disagree ?
And is this true for nonADDers and ADDers ?

The ADDer has the 3/4 (Kunga Dorji) developmental delay - and so wouldn't you have thought that the curves for the ADDer'd be different ?

Haven't thought about this - but if the 9 year old ADDer behaves like a 6 year old ... ... the n perhaps all of these curves need correcting in the ADDer.

Did Kunga post a link that shows a 3/4 developmental delay? Sounds odd.

Dr. Barkley has said that research indicates a 30% developmental delay in some areas.

There is a big difference between 30% and 75%, eh?

mildadhd
11-13-14, 10:07 PM
Now in terms of brain growth in ADHD- we do know some things very clearly- total brain size and maturation is about 3/4 of the calender age of the child.
IE A 16 year old ADDer has a brain that looks more like a 12 year old

Brain maturation, though, peaks in neurotypicals about age 24, and in ADDers about age 28--and the end stage is not all that different.

We also know, however, that focussed attention is necessary for the formation of new synapses (neuroplasticity).
So- if one has impaired attention- one is going to be learning and remodeling one's brain slower than one's more focussed friends.

To me-- that is probably sufficient explanation for the differential brain growth issue.



-Kunga Dorji, "ADHD symptoms and tissue hyperelasticity/ orthostatic intolerance." (post #105 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1690366&postcount=105))





P

Lunacie
11-13-14, 10:39 PM
Thanks Peri. According to that the gap is 25% rather than 30%. Not too much different.
Either way, it's an estimate, some may have a smaller gap and others have a larger gap.

mildadhd
11-13-14, 11:39 PM
What are the delays?

When do the delays begin?

What are the impairments?

When do the impairments begin?




P

SB_UK
11-14-14, 08:39 AM
Getting very confused.

Why can't the delays simply represent the increased length of time required to make something more than previously ?
eg can we call the 9 months of gestation of man delayed (in a bad way) compared to the 20 days gestation of mouse.

And also - it's reasonably well accepted that brain size/development (http://www.livescience.com/22715-pregnancy-length-baby-size.html) is limiting and that's why such helpless and poorly developed brain/minds of babies are observed at birth.

It's reasonable to assume that any further development/complexity would have to occur after birth.

And also - that any species with a trajectory towards greater complexity of brain/mind would take longer to develop than precursor species.

And that this development would take learning and that if we provide a 2 year old with learning material which is not in keeping with the developmental systems which they're experiencing ... ... then learning won't take place in these systems.

And KD's evidence suggests that ADDer 28 year old is at about the same place as nonADDer 24 years old ... ...

-*-

The evidence simply suggests to me that ADDer is on a different developmental (a better) trajectory, requires different learning environments from birth till ... ... and that the informationally sensitive individual given appropriate learning (from age 0 onwards) will have as high quality a life as can be expected.

Actually much more so - because the informational bent in ADDers makes us customised to a high quality life.

But that the only thing that stops this from happening is rigid educational and workplace systems which invariably mean that the ADDer will not be confronted with age matched learning environments.

SB_UK
11-14-14, 08:44 AM
What are the delays?

When do the delays begin?

What are the impairments?

When do the impairments begin?




P
__________________

So - I'm suggesting that the delay is simply the inevitable consequence of making something better ... ... it takes more time.

And that the impairment is simply not teaching to the different (slower) learning trajectory of the ADDer - resulting in adders falling off the educational treadmill.

As an exaggerated description of what I'm calling impairment -
You can't expect a 5 year old to read Shakespeare.

-*-

So delay = an inevitable part of the more evolved nature of the adder brain/mind.
impairment = failure to realise that every neural system requires learning and you'll impair a system if age-appropriate learning is not provided.

SB_UK
11-14-14, 10:44 AM
The single most important thing about a neural system is that it requires training.

We need to train each neural system (see the link in OP featuring developmental time-frames for vision etc...)

As an example - presumably we train vision by simply popping child out in sunshine - where they use their eyes.

? question - myopia partially related to children not going out - not training neural system 'vision' ?

And in ADHD we simply have a different schedule for learning in all neural systems which must be trained postpartum - in order to 'work'.

I don't know what the schedule is ... ... but I do know that ADDers struggle at school - and that the single most significant effect on ADDers will be forcing ADDer into a life in which training of neural systems at inappropriate times - occurs.

-*-

Very simply - the ADDer has a different developmental trajectory - and if education is not provided in keeping with that - then the ADDer with potential to be better - will simply fall off every conveyor belt into a box marked REJECT.

SB_UK
11-14-14, 10:49 AM
If we look at the triune model of the brain / mind.

I'm prety sure we've transcended it.

Layer 1 - reptilian - competition <- transcended [no desire to compete, purpose (survival) transcended by collaboration]
Layer 2 - mammalian/emotional - dualistic (a happy emotion requires there to be a sad emotion) <- transcended [the daydream state is a non-dual state]
Layer 3 - primate <- moral mind (social species) <- see signature ie transcended - a fixed social species has completed a structure which aims to provide moral existence

-*-

The core reason why genetics, neuroscience are being criticised is that I've tried to explain that these represent the wrong abstraction layer.

We represent a type which has transcended mind (end of mind) since we now understand how we came to be by an autonomous process of evolution.

I can guarantee that the type of mind which is able to see our own development - and which turns to reward from social (moral systematizing, deep empathizing, intricate sensory informational quality) - is the type of mind which we possess.

These are NEW properties.

There's a fundamental problem with the precedent seeking nature of science - which has difficulty vizualizing novelty - and which prefers to see positive change as a disordered past.

We're not broken - we're a novel product of evolution - and at the simplest level represent the emergence of an enforcedly social organism ... ... a social species which obtains reward only through socially compatible behaviours.

SB_UK
11-14-14, 11:04 AM
the emergence of an enforcedly [the social reward system = the species specification] social organism
==
enforced moral consistency
....

Lunacie
11-14-14, 11:17 AM
So - I'm suggesting that the delay is simply the inevitable consequence of making something better ... ... it takes more time.

And that the impairment is simply not teaching to the different (slower) learning trajectory of the ADDer - resulting in adders falling off the educational treadmill.

As an exaggerated description of what I'm calling impairment -
You can't expect a 5 year old to read Shakespeare.

-*-

So delay = an inevitable part of the more evolved nature of the adder brain/mind.
impairment = failure to realise that every neural system requires learning and you'll impair a system if age-appropriate learning is not provided.

Interesting perspective.

I don't really understand the reasoning behind Peri's questions either.

mildadhd
11-14-14, 01:17 PM
-Emotional self regulation mostly develops before the age of 4

-All young children have some signs of ADHD before the age of 4

-Sensitive period of implicit preverbal development is before the age of 4

-85% of the size of the adults brain grows before the age of 4

-(on top of that) Sensitive period of explicit verbal development is before the age of 18

-Symptoms of ADHD are present by the age of 4-7


What is the delay?

When does delay begin?

What is the impairment?

When does impairment begin?

What is the difference between delay and impairment?

When does impairment in self regulation occur?


(I have lots more questions and information to present in this thread about development before the age of 4)



P

mildadhd
11-14-14, 01:37 PM
(More questions)

-What is the difference between "delay" and "inherited emotionally hypersensitive (hyperreactive) temperament"?

-What is the difference between "impairment" and "inherited emotionally hypersensitive (hyperreactive) temperament" ?

-What comes first "inherited hypersensitive temperament" or "delay" ?

-What comes first "inherited hypersensitive temperament" or "impairment" ?



(I have lots more questions and information to present in this thread about development before the age of 4)



P

mildadhd
11-14-14, 02:53 PM
http://www.bible.ca/psychiatry/phrenology-triune-brain.jpg




Emotional, Homeostatic, Sensory, BodyMind/MindBody <<<<<PAG>>>>>Emotional, Homeostatic, Sensory, BrainMind/MindBrain


#1)Aggression, Survival, etc = Emotional, Homeostatic and Sensory Psychological Affects (primary unconditioned, instinctual, feeling systems).
(conscious with experience)

#2)Limbic = learning and emotional memories
(unconscious with experience)

#3)Cortex = awareness and emotional self regulation
(conscious with experience)





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SB_UK
11-14-14, 03:38 PM
#1)aggression, survival, etc = emotional, homeostatic and sensory psychological affects (primary unconditioned, instinctual, feeling systems).
(conscious with experience)

i was born with more hyperreactive (hypersensitive) emotional, homeostatic, and sensory unconditioned instinctual feelings.


... ... ...

SB_UK
11-14-14, 04:38 PM
Sensory sensitivity -> Stress [emotional reaction] in sensory overload -> cortisol -> homeostatic imbalance via mineralo and gluco-corticoid production

sensory sensitivity -> emotional hypersensitivity -> homeostatic hyperreactivity ie sensory sensitivity or just plain sensitivity (increased sensitivity in ADDer) as key.

SB_UK
11-14-14, 04:49 PM
I am easily overwhelmed by strong sensory input.
I seem to be aware of subtleties in my environment.
Other people’s moods affect me.
I tend to be very sensitive to pain.
I find myself needing to withdraw during busy days,into bed or into a darkened room or any place where I can have some privacy and relief from stimulation.
I am particularly sensitive to the effects of caffeine.
I am easily overwhelmed by things like bright lights, strong smells,coarse fabrics,or sirens close by.
I have a rich,complex inner life.
I am made uncomfortable by loud noises.
I am deeply moved by the arts or music.
My nervous system sometimes feels so frazzled that I just have to go off by myself.
I am conscientious.
I startle easily.
I get rattled when I have a lot to do in a short amount of time.
When people are uncomfortable in a physical environment I tend to know what needs to be done to make it more comfortable (like changing the lighting or the seating).
I am annoyed when people try to get me to do too many things at once.
I try hard to avoid making mistakes or forgetting things.
I make a point to avoid violent movies and TV shows.
I become unpleasantly aroused when a lot is going on around me.
Being very hungry creates a strong reaction in me,disrupting my concentration or mood.
Changes in my life shake me up.
I notice and enjoy delicate or fine scents, tastes, sounds, works of art.
I find it unpleasant to have a lot going on at once.
I make it a high priority to arrange my life to avoid upsetting or overwhelming situations.
I am bothered by intense stimuli, like loud noises or chaotic scenes.
When I must compete or be observed while performing a task, I become so nervous or shaky that I do much worse than I would otherwise.
When I was a child, my parents or teachers seemed to see me as sensitive or shy.


This (http://www.hsperson.com/test/highly-sensitive-test/) ^^^ is exactly what I'm reporting as the core nature of ADHD.

Sensitivity is explained if we combine:
Markham's Intense World Theory on autism
with
Tygersan's recent thread on schizophrenia (sensory overload)

-*-

The only difference in ADDer is that we can handle the extra informational stream - though we also can be overloaded by intensity as opposed to intricacy of signal.

SB_UK
11-14-14, 05:01 PM
the pained emergence of a social species in an anti-social environment.
==
Being Sensitive -- in an Insensitive World

http://www.sensitiveperson.com/article.htm

SB_UK
11-14-14, 05:02 PM
Sensory sensitivity -> Stress [emotional reaction] in sensory overload -> cortisol -> homeostatic imbalance via mineralo and gluco-corticoid production
ie sensory sensitivity or just plain sensitivity (increased sensitivity in ADDer) as key.

Sensory sensitivity
==
HSPs respond strongly to external stimuli, and become exhausted from taking in and processing these stimuli. They are born with a nervous system that may see, hear, smell or feel more than others.
http://www.sensitiveperson.com/article.htm

mildadhd
11-14-14, 06:21 PM
Sensory sensitivity -> Stress [emotional reaction] in sensory overload -> cortisol -> homeostatic imbalance via mineralo and gluco-corticoid production


sensory sensitivity -> emotional hypersensitivity -> homeostatic hyperreactivity

ie sensory sensitivity or just plain sensitivity (increased sensitivity in ADDer) as key.


Don't disagree, would like to learn and discuss more about these topics on all 3 levels of control (bottom up/top down)


Sensory<----->Emotional <------>Homeostatic

Emotional<------>Sensory<------->Homeostatic

Sensory<------>Homeostatic<--------> Emotional




I think there could be a possibility (combination) depending on individual circumstances and inherited temperament, that some people might even have all 3 Homeostatic, Emotional and Sensory (reactive) sensitive temperaments, possibly connected in some way?

Sensory (hyperreactive) hypersensitive temperament + eustressful or distressful experiences

Emotional (hyperreactive) hypersensitive temperament + eustressful or distressful experiences

Homeostatic (hyperreactive) hypersensitive temperament + eustressful or distressful experiences


Lots more really interesting things to quote and discuss.

Idea? Just an idea, opinion appreciated.

It would be really interesting if we could link threads organize by approx age and stage of development being discussed (important moral topics would go in the older adult ages threads, while still linking overlapping youth age topics.)

I really like to read about the important secondary and tertiary processes of the MindBranin but it is hard to discuss primary processes with them all together in one thread

What age and stage of development would "completion of mind" be best expressed? (we could link overlapping thread and posts about the foundation of the Mind with the thread with the "completion of mind" thread,) just an idea?




Great thread :)

Lunacie
11-14-14, 06:47 PM
-Emotional self regulation mostly develops before the age of 4

Everything I can find indicates that emotional regulation develops in stages that continue into adulthood.


-All young children have some signs of ADHD before the age of 4

-Sensitive period of implicit preverbal development is before the age of 4

-85% of the size of the adults brain grows before the age of 4

-(on top of that) Sensitive period of explicit verbal development is before the age of 18

-Symptoms of ADHD are present by the age of 4-7


What is the delay?

When does delay begin?

What is the impairment?

When does impairment begin?

What is the difference between delay and impairment?

When does impairment in self regulation occur?


(I have lots more questions and information to present in this thread about development before the age of 4)



P

I think being delayed in any area of development (motor skills, emotional regulation, etc.)
causes impairment in comparison to neuro-typically developed peers.

mildadhd
11-14-14, 11:48 PM
Everything I can find indicates that emotional regulation develops in stages that continue into adulthood.



I think being delayed in any area of development (motor skills, emotional regulation, etc.)
causes impairment in comparison to neuro-typically developed peers.



I don't think the brain ever stops developing throughout life, but the critical sensitive period of emotional regulation is before the age of 4, when systems involved are developing for the first time.

Sensitive period of development is the most abundant, most rapid rate, and most sensitive to environmental influences.

See the dramatic decline in "emotional control" peaking at about age one and levelling out around the age of 4, in the graph below?


I was thinking "delayed development" and "impaired development" are basically same thing?

What causes the delay?


P

http://www.gestaltreality.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/brain-development-affect-regulation.jpg

Lunacie
11-15-14, 11:06 AM
You didn't provide a link for your graph - when I googled "Council for Early
Child Development" I found information on Canadian studies.

I like what they're doing in Canada to address identifying children and families
who need help and connecting them with that help.

Early Years Study 2: Putting Science into Action further describes how in
the earliest years of life, crucial brain functions set the stage for future
development. The findings affirm that experience-based brain development in
the early years of life sets neurological and biological pathways that affect
lifelong health, learning, and behaviour.

The research indicates a growing ability to identify early signs of
developmental compromises and challenges. This then allows intervention
strategies to be implemented early - while the brain is still able to be
shaped - and mitigate serious developmental, psychological and behavioural
disorders.
http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/157551/early-years-study-2-putting-science-into-action

mildadhd
11-15-14, 03:35 PM
Focusing on early healthy brain development in general.

Here is a great link from Washington State.

http://thrivebyfivewa.org/

The first five years of life have so much to do with how the next 80 turn out.

Learning begins at birth.

The first years of a child’s life are incredibly important. Babies and toddlers aren’t just cute—they are growing and developing at an astonishing rate. About 85 percent of the human brain develops in the first three years of life. During this crucial developmental time, young children form the “wiring” needed to think, communicate, move and form attachments with those around them. Children who have nurturing, healthy and supportive experiences in their early years are much better prepared to succeed in school and life.

http://thrivebyfivewa.org/why-early-learning/




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mildadhd
11-15-14, 03:46 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=219ijLrDWx8

SB_UK
11-15-14, 05:39 PM
Very confused.

#1)aggression, survival, etc = emotional, homeostatic and sensory psychological affects (primary unconditioned, instinctual, feeling systems).
(conscious with experience)In that post you're giving emotional, homeostatic and sensory as #1 of #3

But in the post below you're giving emotional, homeostatic and sensory representing levels 1, 2 and 3.

Don't disagree, would like to learn and discuss more about these topics on all 3 levels of control (bottom up/top down)
Quote:
Sensory<----->Emotional <------>Homeostatic

Emotional<------>Sensory<------->Homeostatic

Sensory<------>Homeostatic<--------> Emotional

SB_UK
11-15-14, 05:45 PM
Confused ... ...


I think there could be a possibility (combination) depending on individual circumstances and inherited temperament, that some people might even have all 3 Homeostatic, Emotional and Sensory (reactive) sensitive temperaments, possibly connected in some way?

??? ... ... but that's exactly what I'm suggesting ... ...

sensory sensitivity -> emotional hypersensitivity -> homeostatic hyperreactivity

You have the first, then you'll have the second, and you'll have the third - but only in an insensitive environment.

SB_UK
11-15-14, 05:54 PM
At the simplest possible level - Intuition tells me that I want to be in:

Daydream state (=equals= the so called mindful state) =equals= a fixed emotional state =equals= a state where sensory information by virtue of our increased sensory information upload (sensitivity) floats our boat - results in maintaining optimal physiological paramaeters (homeostasis).

I don't know what the time-frames are for proper development of ADDer neural systems - but am sure (and we already know this is true) - that the ADDer's trajectory is different to nonADDer.

I'm not too sure that all of the various curves that are bbeing presented for sensitivity of neural systems can be assumed to be shared between nonADDer and ADDer.

I don't know - maybe ???

If the period is 0 - 4 years for nonADDer - perhaps we're looking at 0 - 6 years in ADDer ... ...

But - certainly - I do know that forcing a student that is not ready to learn - will fail.

mildadhd
11-15-14, 10:43 PM
Bottom-up preverbal emotional consciousness is BIG in early childhood.


1# Primary Processes (lower subcortex) 3 primary affects

Sensory<----->Emotional <------>Homeostatic

Emotional<------>Sensory<------->Homeostatic

Sensory<------>Homeostatic<--------> Emotional



2# Secondary Processes (upper limbic) learning and memory

Sensory<----->Emotional <------>Homeostatic

Emotional<------>Sensory<------->Homeostatic

Sensory<------>Homeostatic<--------> Emotional



3# Tertiary Processes (neocortex) awareness and emotional self regulation

Sensory<----->Emotional <------>Homeostatic

Emotional<------>Sensory<------->Homeostatic

Sensory<------>Homeostatic<--------> Emotional






/\\/ reciprocal relationship (with maturity)



topdown verbal cognition consciousness is BIG in adulthood.


3# Tertiary Processes (neocortex) awareness and emotional self regulation

Sensory<----->Emotional <------>Homeostatic

Emotional<------>Sensory<------->Homeostatic

Sensory<------>Homeostatic<--------> Emotional



2# Secondary Processes (upper limbic) learning and memory

Sensory<----->Emotional <------>Homeostatic

Emotional<------>Sensory<------->Homeostatic

Sensory<------>Homeostatic<--------> Emotional



1# Primary Processes (lower subcortex) 3 primary affects

Sensory<----->Emotional <------>Homeostatic

Emotional<------>Sensory<------->Homeostatic

Sensory<------>Homeostatic<--------> Emotional







*)In early BrainMind development...

I would like to learn from the bottom up, how does the lower subcortical (#1) emotional, homeostasis, and sensory affects, connect to limbic (#2) learning and memories and neocortical (#3) awareness and emotional self regulation?



*)In adulthood MindBrain development...

I would like to learn from the top down, how does the neocortex (#3) awareness and emotional regulation, connect to limbic (#2) learning and memories, and lower subcortex (#1) emotional, homeostatic and sensory



*Does "sensory" always come first-----> then "emotional"---->then "homeostasis

I was thinking the direction and complexity of the arrows and global connections would get more complex with maturity and experience of all three levels of control, and things might all work more globally at the same time, in adulthood.


Learning, please leave room for learning, opinions, additions, corrections appreciated.





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mildadhd
11-16-14, 12:05 AM
Daydream state (=equals= the so called mindful state) =equals= a fixed emotional state =equals= a state where sensory information by virtue of our increased sensory information upload (sensitivity) floats our boat - results in maintaining optimal physiological paramaeters (homeostasis).


I don't know what the time-frames are for proper development of ADDer neural systems - but am sure (and we already know this is true) - that the ADDer's trajectory is different to nonADDer.

I'm not too sure that all of the various curves that are bbeing presented for sensitivity of neural systems can be assumed to be shared between nonADDer and ADDer.

I don't know - maybe ???

If the period is 0 - 4 years for nonADDer - perhaps we're looking at 0 - 6 years in ADDer ... ...

But - certainly - I do know that forcing a student that is not ready to learn - will fail.



Awesome, I would like to work off your last posts for a couple of days.

Thanks

Questions:

*I agree with "daydream" while experiencing a healthy balance of negative and positive feeling emotions? (feelings of safety, joy, happiness, etc)

But I wonder if "Dissociation" type "tuning out" while experiencing an unbalance of positive and negative emotions? (feelings of anxiety, depression, addiction, etc)?


*I wonder if the decline during the sensitive period in development of emotional regulation is natures way of "making" a sensitive infant, a sensitive adult, (if sensitivity still required)?


*I am guessing that there would be at a possibility of some children being slower or faster learners, least a few years either way, naturally?

(Side note: Can't remember the name of the test: my individual hand eye coordination crativity scored above the top 95%, but my reading, classroom skills, are below 45% of average, being honest I think the test is pretty close to accurate)


(add them together and divide by two, 95% + 45% = normal 70%)



*If self regulation is slightly (~5%) underdeveloped, is there a different area of brain that is (+5%) over developed? (Einstein brain for a general example)


(*I am pretty sure that people with seeing impairment develop sensory areas that are stronger , like hearing?)







P

Lunacie
11-16-14, 12:19 AM
All my senses are highly overdeveloped but this is not a compensation for a loss of any of my senses. Hm.

mildadhd
11-16-14, 01:07 AM
All my senses are highly overdeveloped but this is not a compensation for a loss of any of my senses. Hm.


The orbitofrontal cortex is connected to at least 12 other areas of the cortex and also connected and regulates lower subcortical basic raw primary emotion response systems.

("underactive" neocortical emotional regulation (~ 5%) = slightly overactive lower subcortical SEEKING system, PLAY system, etc)

(hence the terms "lack of emotional self regulation")

(*Specifics depend on individual emotional experiences/circumstance and inherited temperament)

If emotional self regulation is slightly underdeveloped by (~5%), it would make sense, that the SEEKING system (dopaminergic mesocorticolimbic projection pathways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways)), that the orbito frontal cortex regulates, may be slightly overactive.



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mildadhd
11-16-14, 01:38 AM
All babies are born with a lack of self regulation and overactive raw emotions.

At birth the lower subcortical primary emotional areas of BrainMind consciousness, are more mature than higher neocortical cognitive areas of MindBrain consciousness.

As we mature and we learn to self regulate these primary emotions.








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mildadhd
11-16-14, 03:17 AM
But - certainly - I do know that forcing a student that is not ready to learn - will fail.



Exactly!



-----*-----



The infant leads and the primary caregiver follows making sure the infant feels safe, using preverbal forms of communication.


In attunement, it is the infant who leads and the mother[ing adult] who follows.

"Where their roles differ is in the timing of their responses," writes John Bowlby, one of the century's great psychiatric researchers. (*6)

The infant initiates the interaction or withdraws from it according to his own rhythms, Bowlby found, while the "mother regulates her behaviour so that it meshes with his... Thus she lets him call the tune and by a skillful interweaving of her own responses with his creates a dialogue."



-Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", Chapter 9: "Attunement and Attachment", p 74.





-----*-----



The Importance of Attunement

Each day, in every classroom, there are thousands of human-to-human interactions.

With words, smiles, and open arms, teachers and children seek to communicate.

And in doing so, a teacher can connect with children in ways that allow sharing, soothing, and learning.

Yet, there can be no communication if the instructive words are not heard, the tender touch is unfelt, and the admiring gaze is unseen.

How often our best words dissolve unheard by those we wish to touch.

Fear, anger, frustration, confusion, pre-occupation, or boredom has made them "deaf."

This was the wrong time or the wrong way to use those words.

There has been a mismatch.

What you wish to say, in that moment, is not very important to the listener.

And you have not perceived what they are saying to you: "Not now. Don't use words. I am tired, scared, hungry, bored, angry."



This is why the core of good teaching is attunement.

Attunement is being aware of, and responsive to, another.

How does this child feel?

Is she interested, engaged, capable of listening to what I want to say?

What is the best way to communicate this idea, fact, concept, or principle to her in this moment?

What will engage, encourage and excite her about this subject?

What will be heard, perceived, felt and learned — in short, what the teacher will communicate — depends upon how receptive the child is.

And how well a teacher reads a child's receptivity depends upon an understanding of how humans communicate without words.



Attunement depends upon our amazing capacity for non-verbal communication.

In fact, the vast majority of our communication with others is non-verbal, and a huge percentage of what our brains perceive in communication from others is focused (even without our being aware) on non-verbal signals: eye movements, facial gestures, tone of voice, the move of a hand, or tip of the head.

Even as one area of the brain is processing and attending to the words in an interaction, other areas are continually focusing on, and responding to, the non-verbal actions that accompany the words.

From this process, a child can literally sense your interest, your approval, and your enthusiasm... (Dr.Bruce Perry)


http://www.scholastic.com/teachers/article/attunement-reading-rhythms-child



i!i i!i i!i

mildadhd
11-16-14, 04:01 AM
I was just daydreaming and my step son walked in the room and unintentionally scared me! :)

(And we laughed.)


Then I looked at him and said, "watch out I'm reading about eye contact again"..

..with slightly longer uncomfortable over emphasized wider open-eyed stare.

(And then we laughed again.)



:D



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mildadhd
11-16-14, 04:28 PM
Levels of Control in Brain Emotional-Affective
State controls (#1) and information Processing (#2 & #3)


1. Primary-Process, Basic-Primordial Affects (sub-neocortical)


i) Emotional Affects (Emotion Action Systems; Intentions-In-Actions)

ii) Homeostatic Affects (Brain-body Interoceptors: Hunger, Thirst, etc.)

iii) Sensory Affects (Exteroceptive-Sensory triggered pleasurable and unpleasurable/disgusting feelings)


2. Secondary-Process Emotions(Learning via Basal Ganglia)


i) Classical Conditioning (e.g. FEAR via basolateral & central amygdala)

ii) Instrumental & Operant Conditioning (SEEKING via Nucleus Accumbens)

iii) Behavioral & Emotional Habits (Largely unconscious-Dorsal Straitum)


3. Tertiary Affects and Neo-cortical "Awareness" Functions.


i) Cognitive Execution Functions: Thoughts & Planning (Frontal cortex)

ii) Emotional Ruminations & Regulations (Medial Frontal Regions)

iii) "Free-will" (Higher Working-Memory functions-Intention-to-Act)




Figure 1.4 A summary of the global levels of control within the brain: (1) Three general types of affects, (2) three types of basic learning mechanisms, and (3) three representative awareness functions of the neocortex (which relies completely on loops down through the basal ganglia to the thalamus, looping back to the neocortex before it can fully elaborate both thoughts and behavior).


Quote from, Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", (Chapter: Ancestral Passions) (Figure 1.4) Page 10.



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mildadhd
11-16-14, 04:41 PM
http://emotionresearcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/three-levels.jpg


Cross-Species Affective Neuroscience Decoding of the Primal Affective Experiences of Humans and Related Animals (http://www.ploscollections.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021236;jsessi onid=AD13490132E599FB6413BDA3EB45FF87)



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mildadhd
04-21-15, 08:44 AM
Lack of emotional self-regulation can begin to be noticeable around the age of 4*.

That would mean biological mechanisms involved in emotional-self regulation would develop before the age of 4.

(*give or take)

Thoughts?


P

acdc01
04-21-15, 08:58 AM
Lack of emotional self-regulation can begin to be noticeable around the age of 4*.

That would mean biological mechanisms involved in emotional-self regulation would develop before the age of 4.

(*give or take)

Thoughts?

Your conclusion seems logical to me if you've got your facts rights (and I'll assume that you do).

Maybe off-topic but I don't think we all suffer from lack of emotional self-regulation regardless of what the researchers are focusing on these days. Many of us do, just not all.

Well we do and we don't. Everyone suffers from it to an extent. I just don't think all of us suffer from it to the point where it impairs our lives (unless you want to stretch the definition to extend to other EF which I don't think is the right thing to do).

mildadhd
04-21-15, 08:55 PM
Your conclusion seems logical to me if you've got your facts rights (and I'll assume that you do).

Maybe off-topic but I don't think we all suffer from lack of emotional self-regulation regardless of what the researchers are focusing on these days. Many of us do, just not all.

Well we do and we don't. Everyone suffers from it to an extent. I just don't think all of us suffer from it to the point where it impairs our lives (unless you want to stretch the definition to extend to other EF which I don't think is the right thing to do).

I am not sure if self regulations are entirely biologically separate?

The critical period of development does last longer in some areas of self-regulation. (Before the age of 7-10*).

It would help, if I did understand the differences in early critical periods of development and self regulations (SR), better.

I will work on it.

Thanks for your thoughts.


P