View Full Version : Unregulated Raw Emotions and ADHD


mildadhd
12-14-14, 10:32 PM
Please, consider the following additional terminology clarification before we proceed:

In this book we are most concerned with, first, the instinctual emotional responses that generate raw affective feelings that Mother Nature built into our brains; we call them primary-process psychological experiences (they are the evolutionary "givens" of the BrainMind).

Second, upon this "instinctual" foundation we have a variety of learning and memory mechanisms, which we here envision as the secondary processes of the brain; these have been especially well studied by those who work on fear-conditioning (see chapter 5 and 6); we believe these intermediate brain processes are deeply unconscious.

Third, at the top of the brain, we find a diversity of higher mental processes--the diverse cognitions and thoughts that allow us to reflect on what we have learned from our experiences--and we call them tertiary processes.

Recognizing such levels of control helps enormously in understanding the fuller complexities of the BrainMind..."


Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", P 9.




This thread is most concerned with primary process raw instinctual emotional response systems that Nature Nature built into the brain.

Feel free to discuss all 3 levels of brain control, but please keep the discussion related to raw emotion primary processes.

The basic raw emotional response systems that are less regulated in people with ADHD.

Example: RAGE/anger/aggression system



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mildadhd
12-14-14, 10:36 PM
"...more raw unmoderated emotion"- Dr.Barkley

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7cw8jHUkHiA

This thread is meant to explore what the question, what are primitive raw emotional systems?


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mildadhd
12-14-14, 11:57 PM
...these emotion-generating brain regions are concentrated in the most ancient medial (midline) and ventral (belly-side) brain areas, ranging from (i) the midbrain, especially a region known as the periaqueductal gray (PAG), or "central gray" as it used to be called; (ii) the hypothalamus and medial thalamus, connected massively to (iii) higher brain regions, traditionally known as the "limbic system", which include the amygdala, basal ganglia, cingulate cortex, hippocampus, and septal regions...; as well as (iv) various medial frontal cortical and ventral forebrain regions (e.g., orbitofrontal cortex) that provide higher controls for emotional reactivity.

Although the concept of the subcortical "limbic system" has been under assault for some time, all would have to admit that it was a great advance over some earlier views (e.g., the James-Lange theory) that situated emotions in higher brain regions.

Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", P 2-4.


Primitive basic raw emotional systems originate in the lower subcortex, not the higher neocortex.


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mildadhd
12-15-14, 12:25 AM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ICY6-7hJo

(31:05) "...the most important part is under the amygdala. You know most people say amygdala is the heart of emotion. That is not true. It connects it to learning, which is important"

-Prof. Jaak Panksepp (Affective Neuroscience)




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mildadhd
12-15-14, 10:11 PM
Challenging the Idea of Animals Emotions


Some people may not want to believe that animals really do have emotions.

I think their own emotions are getting in the way of logic.

When I read all the scientific evidence about electrical stimulation of subcortical brain systems, the only logical conclusion was that the basic emotion systems are similar in humans and all other mammals.

I used cerebral, logical thinking to help reform slaughterhouses, and I used the same logical thought processes to fully accept the existence of emotions in animals.



Research Updates for the Paperback


A year after Animals Make Us Human was first published, scientific research continues to explore the existence of animal emotions.

Recent dog research supports the extreme social awareness of dogs.

Unlike mature wolves they understand what it means when a human points his finger at something.

Further research supports the idea of a general purpose SEEKING system located in the nucleus accumbens.


Why has it taken researchers so long to scientifically recognize animal emotions when some of Panksepp's research is decades old?

A big problem in science is the compartmentalization of data.

Most of Panksepp's work was published in neuroscience literature.

Neuroscientists have their journals, veterinarians have another set of journals, and animal behavior specialists have their own literature.

Few people read literature outside their specific disciplines.

If you would like to explore the latest research articles from neuroscience, veterinary, and animal behavior journals, try searching the databases on www.pubmed.com, www.scirus.com, and Google Scholar. (*1)





Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", P 301-302.



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BrainFreeze
12-20-14, 04:32 AM
of course animals have emotions. any person that loves their pets and has that 'bond' with them will agree. You don't need 100 degrees to prove this point lol. And it's not going to be anyone's phd proposal as what is the point and is there money to be made from it? :D (from an academic and corporate pov).

I am a bit lost - are you trying to say that animals have a primitive emotional system and humans have an advanced one and demonstrating the link can ascertain that people with ADHD operate with a primitive emotional system?

mildadhd
12-21-14, 11:32 AM
of course animals have emotions. any person that loves their pets and has that 'bond' with them will agree. You don't need 100 degrees to prove this point lol. And it's not going to be anyone's phd proposal as what is the point and is there money to be made from it? :D (from an academic and corporate pov).

I am a bit lost - are you trying to say that animals have a primitive emotional system and humans have an advanced one and demonstrating the link can ascertain that people with ADHD operate with a primitive emotional system?

Psychologically, all mammals including humans are born with basically the same 7 raw emotional response systems.




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mildadhd
12-21-14, 12:38 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168430/bin/pone.0021236.g005.jpg


Cross-Species Affective Neuroscience Decoding of the Primal Affective Experiences of Humans and Related Animals

Jaak Panksepp (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168430/)

Unmanagable
12-21-14, 02:01 PM
Not sure if I'm following what you're wishing to discuss, specifically, but what comes to mind is:

Animals and children are typically, and openly, allowed to release their emotions as they feel them, and they're done with it in the moment.

Adults are strictly taught to regulate (or suppress) based on what society deems acceptable in the moment. Trying to recognize, navigate, and translate each moment creates many hurdles.

tomsawyr
12-21-14, 02:55 PM
I can offer something that I have observed in myself and others regarding anger and driving. First, I should say that I am really laid back, and it takes a lot to rile me. But I've seen a lot of people get super angry while driving. Also, I am interested in mindfulness meditation, and I mention that because doing it makes me observe what goes on in my head. Ok

So this is a description of laid-back me getting angry when I drive. It usually occurs when another driver makes a move that really surprises me. So, in the first fraction of a second, I experience a sort of startle. I probably flinch a little bit and it feels like muscle tension shoots through my body. That fades away almost instantly, but it is followed by a vigilance (ready to react to something else) and anger directed at the other driver. I might think an angry thought or say something, but the vigilance relaxes and the anger fades within a matter of 5 or 10 seconds, then I might think about the situation for another 10 or 15 seconds. The fading away of the anger is about at the same rate as the pain of a slap on the thigh. If you slap yourself there, there is a sharp sting, and a pain which then fades away to a tingle sensation in a matter of seconds.
On the other hand, I observe other, less laid back people do something entirely different. After the startle phase when the anger starts to fade, they FEED the anger with thoughts about how wrong that was, how stupid the other driver is, etc. This keeps the pain of mental anguish alive for a long time, where it would just fade if they forgot the incident and let it go. To me that is the equivalent of continuing to slap yourself over and over to keep the pain going.
So, that is my experience of one of the primal emotions. Anger is unpleasant, but it fades fast if you just let it.

mildadhd
12-25-14, 12:30 AM
Not sure if I'm following what you're wishing to discuss, specifically, but what comes to mind is:

Animals and children are typically, and openly, allowed to release their emotions as they feel them, and they're done with it in the moment.

Adults are strictly taught to regulate (or suppress) based on what society deems acceptable in the moment. Trying to recognize, navigate, and translate each moment creates many hurdles.

Consciousness is primarily emotional during the first few years of life.

Infants lack maturity of top-down neocortical cognitive consciousness to regulate the primary 7 bottom-up raw emotional response systems and are completely dependent on emotional self regulation of primary caregivers.

Healthy balance of early positive and negative emotional experiences are determining factors in the development of early healthy emotional self regulation, especially during the the early implicit preverbal stage of development.


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mildadhd
12-25-14, 11:26 AM
All higher more diverse secondary and tertiary emotional processes originate from these lower 7 basic separate communicating primary process raw emotional response systems.




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mildadhd
12-27-14, 06:58 AM
I can offer something that I have observed in myself and others regarding anger and driving. First, I should say that I am really laid back, and it takes a lot to rile me. But I've seen a lot of people get super angry while driving. Also, I am interested in mindfulness meditation, and I mention that because doing it makes me observe what goes on in my head. Ok

So this is a description of laid-back me getting angry when I drive. It usually occurs when another driver makes a move that really surprises me. So, in the first fraction of a second, I experience a sort of startle. I probably flinch a little bit and it feels like muscle tension shoots through my body. That fades away almost instantly, but it is followed by a vigilance (ready to react to something else) and anger directed at the other driver. I might think an angry thought or say something, but the vigilance relaxes and the anger fades within a matter of 5 or 10 seconds, then I might think about the situation for another 10 or 15 seconds. The fading away of the anger is about at the same rate as the pain of a slap on the thigh. If you slap yourself there, there is a sharp sting, and a pain which then fades away to a tingle sensation in a matter of seconds.
On the other hand, I observe other, less laid back people do something entirely different. After the startle phase when the anger starts to fade, they FEED the anger with thoughts about how wrong that was, how stupid the other driver is, etc. This keeps the pain of mental anguish alive for a long time, where it would just fade if they forgot the incident and let it go. To me that is the equivalent of continuing to slap yourself over and over to keep the pain going.
So, that is my experience of one of the primal emotions. Anger is unpleasant, but it fades fast if you just let it.



RAGE/anger


(Awareness of ground-up view)

The primary emotional response systems (SEEKING, FEAR, RAGE, LUST, CARE, PANIC/GRIEF, PLAY) are always capitalized to represent the 7 common mammalian primary complex unconditioned emotional response systems.



Adulthood experience (driving distress)

+

Conscious primary emotional response systems (SEEKING, FEAR, RAGE)
__________________________________________________ ____________


= Unconscious secondary anger (learning, memories) and conscious tertiary anger (awareness, emotional self regulation)





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mildadhd
12-27-14, 08:13 AM
Anger/RAGE


(Awareness of top-down view)



Conscious tertiary anger (awareness, emotional self regulation) and unconscious secondary anger (learning, memories)

+

Adulthood experience (driving distress)
__________________________________________________ ____________

= Conscious primary emotional response systems (SEEKING, FEAR, RAGE)






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SB_UK
12-27-14, 10:53 AM
Not sure if I'm following what you're wishing to discuss, specifically, but what comes to mind is:

Animals and children are typically, and openly, allowed to release their emotions as they feel them, and they're done with it in the moment.

Adults are strictly taught to regulate (or suppress) based on what society deems acceptable in the moment. Trying to recognize, navigate, and translate each moment creates many hurdles.

If that's what we're discussing in this thread then I agree.

Though the problem I'd report is saying what you feel in an anti-social environment can lead to problems eg double glazing salesman telling the truth - I just want as much money as possible from you for as little back.

Just simply suggesting that proper (moral) expression of self in proper social environment is desirable.

In ADDer we have the desire for proper (moral) expression of self in improper social environment.

Why does an ADDer behave morally ?
Simply reward system.

Competition doesn't activate our reward system and so we behave in what one would call a social manner but only through the nature of our different reward system.

What floats the boat of ADDer ? well music, exercies, making something worthwhile - ie a reward system activation scheme which happens o be social/morality .... ...

In a competitive world we are forced to take dopamine in a bottle to comply - we're simply fooling our 'better' selves into believing that we enjoy something that we don't - and it can work - but even though we're happy complying through meds (when they work) - the thinking mind is whirring in the background wondering why we need medication ... ... we report back because the task is boring not motivational in itself -

- our mind reports a confound against the medication-driven state ( ie motivation to do whatever we make ourselves do - everything is interesting under meds because interesting is endogenous dopamine production and we've bypassed the endogenous pathway by exogenous supply) .. ...

SB_UK
12-27-14, 10:59 AM
So emotional response in social environment partic to ADDer = good (ADDer happy)

No compulsion - ability to find a happy place - maybe silence daydreaming in sun - happy happy.

And emotional response in antisocial environment partic to ADDer = bad (ADDer dysfunction)
Forced (against mind) participation - the drugs only work for so long.
Can't combat the mind (complete) which knows why whatever one attempts to do is wrong/pointless.

SB_UK
12-27-14, 11:10 AM
once again reward system actibation happens to be not anti-social

nonADD - materialism reward sytem ie beat others - competition
ADD - not material but informational - no reward system promoting competition so do not comply.

ie new species without capacity/reward systemto hurt others

simple - see sig.

mildadhd
12-28-14, 12:58 PM
(Awareness of pre-cognitive, affective consciousness)


Conscious 7 raw primary emotional response systems

+

Infanthood experiences (preverbal)
_____________________________________

= Foundation for unconscious secondary learning, implicit memories and foundation for conscious tertiary awareness, emotional self regulation.






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SB_UK
12-28-14, 05:01 PM
Consciousness is primarily emotional during the first few years of life.

Infants lack maturity of top-down neocortical cognitive consciousness to regulate the primary 7 bottom-up raw emotional response systems and are completely dependent on emotional self regulation of primary caregivers.

Healthy balance of early positive and negative emotional experiences are determining factors in the development of early healthy emotional self regulation, especially during the the early implicit preverbal stage of development.


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I understand. Yes - this will mimic ADHD. (disorder)

daveddd
12-31-14, 02:00 AM
p

are you familiar with "resetting" of the 7 primary emotions?

mildadhd
01-01-15, 01:14 PM
Hi Daveddd,

No not specifically, but I'm interested in any information you find helpful.

Last year I mostly focused on learning about the 7 mammalian primary raw emotional affects (basic instinctual feelings) originating in deep subcortex from the ground-up.

This year I would like to learn more how different individual experiences exercise the 7 common ancestral affects.

The affects are the foundations upon which the beauty and ugliness of life has been constructed.

And affects also change with experience, but more quantitatively rather than qualitatively.


Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter: "Preface and Acknowledgments", p xi



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daveddd
01-01-15, 03:05 PM
under, "the special role of shame"

i own the whole book if you have any Qs about the next page

it caught my eye, and seems like what you always talk about, so thought maybe u had some info


https://books.google.com/books?id=0i-FAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA354&dq=panskepp+resetting+emotions&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5pmlVJipEMWUNsWGg9gB&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=panskepp%20resetting%20emotions&f=false

mildadhd
01-01-15, 07:41 PM
under, "the special role of shame"

i own the whole book if you have any Qs about the next page

it caught my eye, and seems like what you always talk about, so thought maybe u had some info


https://books.google.com/books?id=0i-FAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA354&dq=panskepp+resetting+emotions&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5pmlVJipEMWUNsWGg9gB&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=panskepp%20resetting%20emotions&f=false



Raw emotion + experience = secondary and tertiary emotion.

Shame is a secondary emotion.

If I remember correctly?

Experience is good when shaming promotes security.

Experience is bad when shaming promotes insecurity.

I am guessing FEAR and PANIC/GRIEF are the associated primary emotions?

Dr. Mate discusses Shame and ADHD in "Scattered", I would like to reread the information before discussing the information.

Prof Panksepp also has approaches from a in-depth affective perspective that I would to discuss more this year.

I wonder what the difference between "Resetting" and the power of tertiary emotional awareness?

Great topics to consider.




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daveddd
01-01-15, 07:59 PM
shame plays a large role in add for sure, largely unrecognized .

the "resetting" of the 7 primary emotions ,panksepp(which i do know are very important in the development of adhd)—-i got a jist—hoping you knew more because it sounds very useful

it seems to involve induction of the primary emotions, individually , then retraining to gain symbolic representation

it seems part of the problem in add and other affect regulation disorders , is that we experience emotion in a primitive visceral manner, leading to maladaptive methods of regulation

experiencing emotion symbolically (imagery , language) would allow us to observe emotion as oppose to feeling emotion , allowing us to regulate better and use emotion as guiding factors they are meant for


anyway you know much more about the panksepp stuff then me, so keep posting

I'm enjoying it, sorry to derail

mildadhd
01-01-15, 09:06 PM
shame plays a large role in add for sure, largely unrecognized .

the "resetting" of the 7 primary emotions ,panksepp(which i do know are very important in the development of adhd)—-i got a jist—hoping you knew more because it sounds very useful

it seems to involve induction of the primary emotions, individually , then retraining to gain symbolic representation

it seems part of the problem in add and other affect regulation disorders , is that we experience emotion in a primitive visceral manner, leading to maladaptive methods of regulation

experiencing emotion symbolically (imagery , language) would allow us to observe emotion as oppose to feeling emotion , allowing us to regulate better and use emotion as guiding factors they are meant for


anyway you know much more about the panksepp stuff then me, so keep posting

I'm enjoying it, sorry to derail

You always ask excellent and challenging questions and have a much better understanding of secondary and tertiary processing levels of control.

Please fill in and share all the primary, secondary and tertiary blanks you can.

BrainMind (preverbal nonverbal ground-up affective consciousness)

MindBrain (postverbal verbal top-down cognitive consciousness)

Your insights always provide many new thread ideas to discuss.


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mildadhd
01-01-15, 09:21 PM
In my reply in post #23 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1710342&postcount=23), I would like to edit my guess...

I am guessing that SEEKING, FEAR, CARE, PANIC/GRIEF primary emotional response systems + experience may be involved in shaming that promotes security.



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mildadhd
01-05-15, 01:26 PM
Psychiatrist Daniel Siegel has written extensively about the development of emotional regulation in children, often pointing out the significance of primary emotions to social relationships.

Primary emotions are the brain’s initial appraisal of whether an experience is “good” or “bad,” and while these appraisals may not always be conscious, they are constantly occurring.


INFANCY: WHERE SELF-REGULATION BEGINS (http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/family-relationships/child-development-self-control/37805.aspx)


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mildadhd
04-08-15, 10:48 PM
What is your layman or professional interpretation of the 7 primary unconditioned emotional response systems?


-What is your interpretation of the SEEKING system?

-What is your interpretation of the RAGE system?

-What is your interpretation of the FEAR system?

-What is your interpretation of the LUST system?

-What is your interpretation of the CARE system?

-What is your interpretation of the PANIC/GRIEF system?

-What is your interpretation of the PLAY system?





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mildadhd
04-09-15, 07:28 AM
Unconditioned emotional response systems.

Unproven or ignored?

Lots of scientific proof.

Nobody is interested I guess.

Won't bother anyone anymore.


Take care.


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