View Full Version : A thing about Asperger's Syndrome and autism


Fortune
12-23-14, 06:39 AM
Aside from the fact that these are no longer separate diagnostic categories in the DSM-5:

Asperger's Syndrome is not mild autism. It is autism without certain kinds of speech delay (such as late speech, although other forms may be present). While it is also supposed to reflect a lack of delay in self-help and adaptive skills, the reality is that this is not the case.

Outcomes for people diagnosed with AS are not significantly different from outcomes for people diagnosed with autism or PDD.

TygerSan
12-23-14, 08:12 AM
My impression is that people who can talk with their mouths tend to somehow be seen as being less impaired than people who can't speak.

I think it's testament to how much society values spoken language over other more functional skills.

Fortune
12-23-14, 09:38 AM
Yes, I agree. And how primarily non-verbal communication isn't valued. I used to read an autistic woman's blog, and she talked about strangers trying to challenge and trick her because she used a text-to-speech device to communicate, and these people would assume that there was fakery afoot.

And there is something in being able to communicate with people in ways they assume are valid, and it does tend to lead to less condescension, contempt, fewer assumptions, etc. but it's also frustrating because I often find I can't communicate what I want to communicate and when I try to say so, people will insist that they do understand me because they understand the words they heard me use. As if there's no problem between my brain and mouth.

I just hate seeing the words "mild autism" applied by default. I ain't mild, but my diagnostic label gets called that.

ChicharitoFan14
12-23-14, 09:51 AM
Dont get why they say people with aspergers has no problems with speech and language
I certainly have problems sometimes

Fortune
12-23-14, 09:57 AM
Because there are multiple ways for speech delays to appear, and only one of them involves not speaking until four or five or six or later or never. So AS gets seen as not having language issues, even though we have to work out scripts that are necessary to be able to speak to people, or having formal thought disorders like tangential or circumstantial speech (my speech tends toward one or the other) but because they can understand the words that means the problem isn't there.

ChicharitoFan14
12-23-14, 10:11 AM
The thing is that my psychologist saw how muched i struggled to get my words out
So maybe i have another condition with Aspergers and ADHD

Fortune
12-23-14, 10:15 AM
Maybe, or maybe it's the autism.

I mean I don't know either way. But yeah, psychiatrists are better at noticing the struggle to get words out right than others, although one of my therapists was completely oblivious to it. My attorney (for disability) was the worst, because we weren't communicating at all and wouldn't believe me when I said we weren't, which didn't help much when we were at the hearing.

ChicharitoFan14
12-23-14, 10:19 AM
Could be who knows

And sounds like you have a crap psychitrist tbh, and ah that sucks bound to cause problems at a hearing

Fortune
12-23-14, 10:28 AM
Well the therapist wasn't a pdoc, just a crap therapist. I've only seen actual pdocs for med adjustments.

BellaVita
12-23-14, 05:36 PM
I didnt have speech delay, but sometimes I get so overloaded (during a meltdown) that I rock for hours and can't get the words out of my mouth. I always wondered why I did this, glad to know there's a reason.

fracturedstory
12-26-14, 06:16 AM
I consider myself mild because I don't need 24/7 care or have self-injurious behaviour.

But gosh I hate speaking. Words just don't come out of my mouth clearly and sometimes what I was going to say just vanishes from my brain. Can also be an ADHD thing too.

Batman55
12-28-14, 12:21 AM
I wonder what you think about this.. I used to be on a forum for Aspies. (As a side note: I'm not diagnosed with Asperger's, but definitely have some traits, therefore you could say I have mild Asperger's.)

Some of the folks there actively wanted to distance themselves from "regular autism" or LFA as they called it, believing Asperger's to be a separate label, one that shouldn't be brought down by associations with autism/LFA.

I'm just wondering what you think of that, I'm not trying to fan flames or anything, honestly.

Fortune
12-28-14, 02:20 AM
I think they're kind of full of it. I do not experience all the same challenges and difficulties that some others on the spectrum do, but I do not see any point in trying to position myself as "better" or "separate" from people with whom I share commonalities.

I've found that such people tend to view neurodiversity as something that belongs to them, but implicitly or explicitly excludes those whom they consider to be "low functioning" from similar considerations, even though neurodiversity was never intended to exclude such people.

Functioning labels are also kind of misleading, in that people seem to assume things about one's skills and abilities based on a high-functioning or low-functioning label. That is assuming someone like myself has skills that I do not have, or that someone seen as low functioning lacks skills that they very well may actually have. The new ASD criteria are a step forward in acknowledging the reality over the need for neat labels.

BellaVita
12-28-14, 02:29 AM
I agree with your post above, Fortune.

Fortune
12-28-14, 02:33 AM
I should add that "such people" were involved in the origins of the neurodiversity movement, as well as active participants for years after its inception. And still are, as far as I can tell. I think that a lot of them don't get involved in places with a lot of Aspies because of the tendency for a lot of Aspies to view themselves as separate from and often better than.

Pentax
12-28-14, 09:36 AM
I think they're kind of full of it. I do not experience all the same challenges and difficulties that some others on the spectrum do, but I do not see any point in trying to position myself as "better" or "separate" from people with whom I share commonalities.

I've found that such people tend to view neurodiversity as something that belongs to them, but implicitly or explicitly excludes those whom they consider to be "low functioning" from similar considerations, even though neurodiversity was never intended to exclude such people.

Functioning labels are also kind of misleading, in that people seem to assume things about one's skills and abilities based on a high-functioning or low-functioning label. That is assuming someone like myself has skills that I do not have, or that someone seen as low functioning lacks skills that they very well may actually have. The new ASD criteria are a step forward in acknowledging the reality over the need for neat labels.:goodpost: very refreshing to read

daveddd
01-01-15, 05:05 PM
i don't do much autism research, so figured i ask you

it seems to come up quite a bit just running acrostic, one difference

i don't agree or disagree just wondering what you think, i see this all the time

aspergers- avoidance of eye contact , difficulty in social situations due to hyperarousal , or overstimulation

classic autism- just lack of knowledge in social situations

Fortune
01-02-15, 05:28 AM
I don't think I've ever seen anyone diagnosed with any label in the spectrum describe just having lack of social understanding. Not all describe overstimulation in social situations, but there's usually more going on a lack of knowledge.

One of the reasons that everything was shifted to ASD in the DSM-5 was the lack of validity in maintaining them as separate diagnoses.

Lunacie
01-02-15, 10:51 AM
i don't do much autism research, so figured i ask you

it seems to come up quite a bit just running acrostic, one difference

i don't agree or disagree just wondering what you think, i see this all the time

aspergers- avoidance of eye contact , difficulty in social situations due to hyperarousal , or overstimulation

classic autism- just lack of knowledge in social situations

The only reason my granddaughter was given the dx of Atypical Autism
(or PDD-NOS) was that she had some eye contact. Lack of eye contact or
poor eye contact is very much a sign of Autism.

Delayed speech, difficulty with social situations, easily overstimulated,
repetitive behaviors such as stimming (rocking, spinning, flapping), she
had all those.

I don't know what kind of stuff you're reading, but it doesn't seem accurate.

daveddd
01-02-15, 01:00 PM
I don't think I've ever seen anyone diagnosed with any label in the spectrum describe just having lack of social understanding. Not all describe overstimulation in social situations, but there's usually more going on a lack of knowledge.

One of the reasons that everything was shifted to ASD in the DSM-5 was the lack of validity in maintaining them as separate diagnoses.

so sheldons character is inaccurate?

i thought it was common in autism to not understand social cues ?

daveddd
01-02-15, 01:44 PM
The only reason my granddaughter was given the dx of Atypical Autism
(or PDD-NOS) was that she had some eye contact. Lack of eye contact or
poor eye contact is very much a sign of Autism.

Delayed speech, difficulty with social situations, easily overstimulated,
repetitive behaviors such as stimming (rocking, spinning, flapping), she
had all those.

I don't know what kind of stuff you're reading, but it doesn't seem accurate.

The only reading on autism I do is genetic stuff

I'm very interested in behavioral phenotyping of genetic disorders

The info I mentioned is mainly from that, fragile x used to be the number one inherited cause of autism.

They no longer say that. They say because fragile x people avoid eye contact because of arousal While autism avoids it's because of just not doing it because of poor understanding of social cues

So some genetic reading now calls fragile x autism. Pdd nos

A few say it's asperger

Most say adhd and social anxiety

This is in all the genetic research of behavioral phenotyping of neurological disorder

But the genetic research does seem flawed in ways. So I didn't really take it to heart

That's why I asked fortune

daveddd
01-02-15, 01:49 PM
The disconnect may be in diagnosing

The dsm uses a symptom based syndrome approach

Where I think genetic research is looking for cause and effect

Lunacie
01-02-15, 02:26 PM
so sheldons character is inaccurate?

i thought it was common in autism to not understand social cues ?


The character of Sheldon Cooper certainly has trouble understanding social stuff.

He displays many more of the symptoms of autism, such as trouble making eye
contact, having a narrow field of interest, and difficulty with making changes or
transitioning.

Everyone I know who knows anything about Autism says he clearly shows the
symptoms of high functioning autism.

daveddd
01-02-15, 02:32 PM
Oh I thought so

Fortune
01-02-15, 03:30 PM
so sheldons character is inaccurate?

i thought it was common in autism to not understand social cues ?

No, it's not just lack of knowledge in social situations. People diagnosed with any label that means "autism" tend to have trouble with eye contact. People diagnosed with any label that means "autism" can experience overload.

I get overloaded by eye contact and find it harmful and I certainly do not have fragile X.

daveddd
01-02-15, 05:32 PM
Yea genetic researchers jump to conclusions.

They don't know anything about mental illness

daveddd
01-02-15, 05:45 PM
No, it's not just lack of knowledge in social situations. People diagnosed with any label that means "autism" tend to have trouble with eye contact. People diagnosed with any label that means "autism" can experience overload.

I get overloaded by eye contact and find it harmful and I certainly do not have fragile X.

i was talking about reasons for eye contact difficulties, not the entire dx

i said i was just telling you what I've read, this is very well established in neurological genetic phenotyping

i believe you that its wrong

Fortune
01-02-15, 10:52 PM
Sorry, I wasn't trying to argue or sound like I was arguing, just clarifying my intended point.

fracturedstory
01-03-15, 06:14 AM
I wonder what you think about this.. I used to be on a forum for Aspies. (As a side note: I'm not diagnosed with Asperger's, but definitely have some traits, therefore you could say I have mild Asperger's.)

Some of the folks there actively wanted to distance themselves from "regular autism" or LFA as they called it, believing Asperger's to be a separate label, one that shouldn't be brought down by associations with autism/LFA.

I'm just wondering what you think of that, I'm not trying to fan flames or anything, honestly.
They sound like jerks, and I have talked to many people like that in autism forums.

Flia
01-04-15, 07:43 AM
None of the traits are excluding as far as I know.
Eye contact is just one trait, an you can have all the other traits but being able to have eye contact.

Also, it's not unheard of that women learn to fake "normality".
If you have eye contact but it doesn't come naturally, then you have the trait.
But who's to know, if you're good at faking it?

BellaVita
01-04-15, 09:56 PM
None of the traits are excluding as far as I know.
Eye contact is just one trait, an you can have all the other traits but being able to have eye contact.

Also, it's not unheard of that women learn to fake "normality".
If you have eye contact but it doesn't come naturally, then you have the trait.
But who's to know, if you're good at faking it?

I don't see why other humans think it's so necessary that we make eye contact with them.

Lunacie
01-04-15, 11:34 PM
I don't see why other humans think it's so necessary that we make eye contact with them.

It's rather confusing. Not too little eye contact ... but not too much either. :eyebrow:

BellaVita
01-04-15, 11:37 PM
It's rather confusing. Not too little eye contact ... but not too much either. :eyebrow:

Yes. All the while having to pay attention to their tone of voice, and their words, and trying to pay attention to one's own facial expression...trying to fit smiles in here and there...trying not to accidentally smile when they say something serious. Also body language like how close to stand to them (one of my biggest issues) and remembering to face them while they're speaking to you.

It's almost impossible.

I can't do it all at once.

Abi
01-05-15, 03:03 AM
I hear you Bela and I'm not even aspie

TygerSan
01-05-15, 08:06 AM
Eye contact is somewhat overrated. I have to admit that even though I know on an intellectual level that someone staring into space can still be paying attention to me, I still find myself instinctively interpreting the cue as a lack of attention/interest.

And I, personally, don't always do so well with the eye contact, especially when I'm trying to remember something/ put a difficult concept into words. :doh:

I also tend to focus so hard on the mechanics of speaking that I tend not to focus on the mechanics of the nonverbal part of communication. Honestly, I think if I were to focus on the nonverbal part I would tie myself up in knots so much that I wouldn't be able to say anything meaningful.

As an aside, I'm not really a fan of books on etiquette. They're great anxiety fuel.

daveddd
01-05-15, 11:42 AM
I don't see why other humans think it's so necessary that we make eye contact with them.

Because it's how we evolved to connect and share emotional experiences

Lunacie
01-05-15, 12:52 PM
Because it's how we evolved to connect and share emotional experiences

But maybe we don't want to connect with everyone,
or share emotional experiences with just anyone. ;)


In some cultures, direct eye contact is not polite,
or can be considered a challenge to authority.

Fortune
01-05-15, 01:46 PM
Because it's how we evolved to connect and share emotional experiences

Eye contact is not a universal cultural constant, which sort of undermines the "we evolved that way" explanation.

I'm hesitant to go the evo psych route because so much of it is "just so" stories used to explain modern western civilization through an evolutionary lens - that is taking modern day habits in places like the US and fabricating neolithic explanations for them. The eye contact thing sounds like that kind of thing.

TygerSan
01-05-15, 03:08 PM
Eye contact is not a universal cultural constant, which sort of undermines the "we evolved that way" explanation.

Agreed that the meaning of eye contact varies from culture to culture. I *think* I would be willing to say, though, that eye contact almost universally conveys some type of meaning. (Be it threat, dominance, assertiveness, attention, etc.)

Nonverbal cues are generally an important part of communication. I find it kind of interesting that while I'm pretty good at (perhaps oversensitive to, in some cases) picking up on tone of voice, I am honestly pretty crap at modulating the same nonverbal cues in myself. No idea if it's an attention issue or what, but I *constantly* am being told to relax, lighten up, smile, etc. I honestly have no idea what my expression is half the time.

Abi
01-05-15, 03:25 PM
Eye contact is not a universal cultural constant, which sort of undermines the "we evolved that way" explanation.

I'm hesitant to go the evo psych route because so much of it is "just so" stories used to explain modern western civilization through an evolutionary lens - that is taking modern day habits in places like the US and fabricating neolithic explanations for them. The eye contact thing sounds like that kind of thing.

Quoted for truth.

fracturedstory
01-05-15, 09:23 PM
Eye contact comes natural to others and in this society shows that we are paying attention and are interested in the person we are talking to. But we have to know when to make it and break it. That's the hard bit for me. Sometimes I just forget about making it at all because it doesn't come natural to me and the face is rather distracting when I'm trying to explain something. In fact sometimes (most times) I have to look away from the whole person when I get into detailed descriptions of my stories.

For a socially anxious person some eye contact can be intimidating too.

Flia
01-06-15, 04:41 AM
Nonverbal cues are generally an important part of communication. I find it kind of interesting that while I'm pretty good at (perhaps oversensitive to, in some cases) picking up on tone of voice, I am honestly pretty crap at modulating the same nonverbal cues in myself. No idea if it's an attention issue or what, but I *constantly* am being told to relax, lighten up, smile, etc. I honestly have no idea what my expression is half the time.

I'm the same.
I have no problem following others feelings and intentions, and I'm good at faking eye contact, but I'm worthless at showing my own.