View Full Version : The things not big enough.


duckotaco
12-29-14, 07:27 PM
Hello, this is my first post. I am a 25 years old male living under the same roof of my mother (hopefully not forever).

I highly suspect my mother could have ADD, and talking of "cognitive function disorder" sounds even more effective in her case. She simply doesn't seem to reason in a straightforward way, and is making my life so much more complicated than it should be.

I don't have an official diagnosis yet, but after reading over the internet I am almost sure ADD is one of the things my mother has. I suspected she could have a form of autism, or personality disorder. She might still have personality disorder besides ADD. ADD does resemble autism in some aspects, so ADD explains those behaviors to me. but, again, she might have NPD, or BPD, and others at the same time.

I am not going to explain the whole of my mother to you now, but I will quote my post from Yahoo Answers. I don't mention ADD there, but I describe a specific behavior that could be due to ADD or something else, and I would like your insight on that.

I am currently bewildered and struggling to stay calm, balanced, and guilt-free as my mother becomes a monster whenever I point that she could have a problem. She completely loses her head and begins a series of accusations that don't make the least of sense to me. She is not always this crazy, but she does seem to have a certain threshold of tolerance to criticism, especially to-the-point criticism, that she crosses over quite easily. These make me think of narcissism rather than ADD, but who knows. Again, my mother BEWILDERS me, and surprises me punctually everyday with crazy behaviors and ideas that I just couldn't predict. Daily life with her is hard and I try to avoid even seeing her. It is almost impossible for me to deal with her, let alone talk to her. She fervently follows her religious beliefs and seems to be actively avoiding any truth, any logic, any science about ANYTHING. She seems to have lost any open mindedness and have become intolerant at any slightly different worldviews, namely freedom of thought. This complicated matters further and I thought I would add it but it shapes her behavior further and it's quite easy for me to attribute those behavior to her religious beliefs since I grew in that tradition and I was like that as well because that's what the faith expects from its members - to think and act in a certain way.

This doesn't take away from the fact I think she INDEPENDENTLY had ADD and possibly other stuff. Now, you'd have to read the Yahoo question for my question is about this specific "let us not have quite enough" behavior which I find disquieting.


My mother does everything in a way that is "slightly not fully adequate".

I have now realized she has this pattern of behavior. Whatever she does, she makes sure it doesn't fully resolve the problem at hand. She does it to herself, and others.

She does not allow herself to have FULL comfort, nor others. She constantly makes sure things are not quite right and satisfying, but again, she seems to do the same for herself. It is possible what is inadequate to me is her idea of adequate. When I demand things that concern me to be fully satisfying, she goes mad and obstacles the easy satisfying solution to the problem.

Two examples. When I was little, she would make me wear clothes that were not right. Underwear wa JUST SLIGHTLY TOO SMALL. I probably told her more than once, when I was little, that I would have rather have me buy stuff that is TOO LARGE, and not too small. She would get angry, scary isn't it. It's like a mother who forces her son to wear a straight jacket, who wants to harm him rather than do him well, in a passive aggressive and covert way. Seems much disfunction to me but what do you think makes her like that? What's her mental illness, what's the logic behind this behavior?

Now, I am grown up and I still live with her. One more example of the "lets make sure he's not happy" behavior. She makes easy things complicates, like managing garbage. I suspect ADHD, a cognitive problem by which she just complicates things unneccessarely. I just don't know how aggressive towards me it is though.

She uses plastic bags for garbage that are just not big enough. When I tell her it's not a problem at all to use them bigger than necessary, but it's a problem to use them slightly too small like she does because it makes garbage spill all over, she goes completely ballistic. Obviously she must have some serious problem. Again some cognitive and/or personality disorder but my question is about this specific "not good enough" behavior. I am not aware of a disorder giving this specific symptom, but maybe it's a passive aggressive behavior due to narcissism, that's the only thing I can think of. What do you think?

My theory is that basically she wants to make sure that both her life and of those close to her isn't as easy and satisfying as it could easily be. She does it to herself as a form of self destruction or, more likely knowing her, because she has a cognitive problem by which she just can't organize herself well. It is possible and I hope there is no passive aggressiveness here, and that she does the garbage thing (it's one example of hundreds...) for the same reason. The thing is that I told her why we need to use bigger plastic bags, and she takes YEARS to eventually finally do it, after arguing over and over. She just doesn't seem to see the simple logic "larger is ok, too small isn't" I'm telling her. Or, does she do itas an aggression towards me? Maybe she doesn't want me to be happy after all? That's the dilemma for me. What do you think?


hope to receive some interesting insight that can help me understand why my mother does this.

the underpants story is true, I swear. But not only that. Everything she bought for me tended to be too small well into my teens. Trousers, shoes. She has no concept of good enough, of comfort. But, she does it to herself as well...can this be a product of ADD, or is it a personality disorder at work? Surely it isn't normal...

Corina86
12-30-14, 03:56 PM
The behaviour you described doesn't seem to be related to ADHD symptoms at all. I'm not sure if she has a disorder or what disorder that might be- only a doctor can put a diagnosis. It seems that you're the one who has a problem with her behaviour- and you have every reason to feel this way- but you have to understand that you can't force her to change. She can choose to change herself, if and only if she really wants to. She'll never see a doctor or a therapist unless she feels she has an issue.

Maybe, if you think that the religion she joined is messing with her head, you should do some research on this topic. I'm not familiar with this, but there must be support groups or forums or web sites for those whose family members are caught up in religious cults or fanatical organizations or any sort.

My advice would be to let your mother make her own decisions and care for yourself more. She's obviously a difficult person and the sooner you move out, the better it will be for you. You seem to have some painful memories regarding your childhood and your mother and I'm more worried about who this is affecting you, rather than her.

duckotaco
12-30-14, 04:39 PM
Yes of course, when a psychopath kills or harms someone, one should be worried about the victim as well. But It's the psychopath who caused it all, I'd like to stress.

Whether my mum WANTS to understand she has a problem or not instead is IRRELEVANT the way I see it - she has a problem, period, and I posted here to see if other people can help me figure out why she does what she does. I haven't asked on advice and what I should do. "Move out" is way easy to say and much more difficult to do. Obviously I have reaosns why I must stay here.

When the psychopath or other mentally ill person bothers others, society should perform actions to protect their victims...the "you can't change them" mentality is silly. Ok, you can't change, so what. I don't have to change. I don't do anything wrong. I have to document myself and everything. Also, I AM FREE TO FORCE MY MOTHER TO VISIT A DOCTOR. I haven't done that because I have no reason to think doctors would solve the problem. Maybe one day I'll do it. It's not true that she has to decide. If she's not able to comprehend she has a problem, other people SHOULD FORCE her to go. So I disagree with you on that point.

Also, she does know she have a problem. She just doesn't know how to fix it. She doesn't seem to have problem solving skills, that's what the thread is about.

She is an adult, I have read articles on adult ADD. It's more subtle. I see the symptom: In short, she has organizational problems. Just the first article popping out from google, this:
http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/10-symptoms-adult-adhd

the FIRST symptom is:

Trouble Getting Organized
For people with ADHD, the responsibilities of adulthood -- bills, jobs, and children, to name a few -- can make problems with organization more obvious and more problematic than in childhood.

Sounds like my mother to me.

So according to this article, this symptom can well be related. I can't be sure about that, hence the thread, to check what others with experience with ADD think.

"I'm not sure if she has a disorder or what disorder that might be"

if you think a person who does what I described doesn't have a disorder, YOU have a problem as well. Perhaps ADD. Here I'm asking opinions of people who know ADD but don't have it. I just don't see how people afflicted with the disorder can help. All of life is about denial. You might have organizational problems and not know it, only people with problem solving skills see it. It's irrelevant what you thin, what matters is that you have the problemand that's all that should be discussed. and YOU would be the one to be worried about, the cause of problems to yourself and others.

I'm not asking for personal advice - it's irritating, you're not in a position to give it to me. "Move out" is stupid advice.

"I'm more worried about who this is affecting you, rather than her."

I don't give a damn what you're worried about. This is a thread on explanations on my mother's behavior. She and that behavior is the focus - I am not your business, you are not in a position to "help" me and also, I don't need help. There's no help you can give me. Telling me to move out isn't help. It's only annoying.

Nonetheless, thanks for your opinion.

Would be grateful for more opinions on what might cause my mother's behavior - I ignore any personal advice on myself. Noone here is in the position to give it top me. All advice to myself will be rushed and superficial, and unhelpful. Instead, you can well give me some insight on that specific behavior I describe. There are of course other things my mother does that to me, indicate adult ADD. This is not the only one. In facts, I have doubts on this specific one - is this one because of ADD? But even if it isn't, I would still think she does have ADD, because other things point to that. She is the typical overly impatient person who can't stand still, for starters. That's classic ADHD. But adult ADHD can be subtle and hard to diagnose. No, not true that "only a doctor can tell". I have diagnosed things in myself and others much well than doctors did. Doctors of today, where I live, are morons and are not helpful. And that's a fact and I'm not the only one who knows that. I see the facts and work with them.

Don't worry about me - surely it's stressful being with my mother, and that's why I need to document and understand as much as I can. "focusing on myself"? Please. Silly advice. I should focus on my mum and understand why she does what she does - that is what can help me.

I focus on my mum's behavior. I have never said in my post that I plan to CHANGE her, so don't worry. by the way, society should make it so noone harms another, without asking anything from teh victims - it's the harmer who should be forced to change. Until then, the only way for victims of crazy people is to understand as much as they can about the conditions that make them crazy.

It's typical to confuse victims of a crazy person for the crazy person himself. The ignorance of common people. I hope there's somebody less common in here.

duckotaco
12-30-14, 04:45 PM
"My advice would be to let your mother make her own decisions "

Decisions. She has no decisional, organizational., problem solving skills. She makes life uneccessarely hard for herself. And your advice would be to leave her alone making her own decision.

Look, the advice is SORT of right because I never doubted that whatever she has, there is NOTHING I can do about it.

I will leave her in her madness, but THERE'S NOTHING WRONG IN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHY SHE DOES WHAT SHE DOES. And I will keep trying to. And I will not stop trying to figure it out. Because THAT is the premise of problem solving. UNDERSTANDING WHY people do stuff. IGNORING and "LEAVING PEOPLE ALONE" isn't the way to solve anything.

My mother has a problem - I need to figure out what and why and how. That's all my focus for now. I cannot "move out". If I could I would have done it and certainly I wouldn't be thinking of my messed up mother.

Your post doesn't help me much, but thanks anyway. It focuses too much on "leaving crazy people being crazy". That's the way for a crazy society that makes the victims the perpetrators.

I must not think of myself. I must think of my mother's behavior and understand why she does what she does. I am perfectly capable to take care of myself for the rest, so stop worrying about me. Having problems doesn't mean I'm not a good problem solver. Not having problems, not having a crazy mother at home doesn't mean they're better problem solvers than me.

namazu
12-30-14, 08:10 PM
So far you have described as your mother's problems as
- buying garbage bags that are too small
- buying clothes for you that are too small
- being disorganized
- being restless

While the latter two can be symptoms of ADHD, and the former two could, I suppose, be indications of poor attention to detail, I'm not sure these problems constitute a diagnosable disorder in the absence of more serious impairments than you have described in your posts.

(Also, poor problem-solving and decision-making skills could stem from many different causes. Do you get the sense that these issues bother her, too, or only you?)

As your mother is an adult, you cannot force your mother into medical care, unless her behavior creates a danger to herself or others, which you have not clearly described. If she does not react well to your suggestions that she has a problem and should seek care, there's really not much you can do about it.

What you can do is look out for yourself, even if you're stuck with this living arrangement for the foreseeable future.

While it may be unpleasant to live with someone with whom you cannot converse, that may just be the way it has to be if you want to avoid arguments. If the garbage bags she buys are too small, consider buying larger bags, choosing items with less packaging, recycling more, or taking the garbage out more frequently.

I assume at this point you are responsible for buying your own clothes and can choose sizes that actually fit you.

Are you running into problems with electricity or water service being discontinued due to failure to pay bills? If so, and the problem is poor organization rather than lack of funds, consider setting up auto-bill-pay or taking care of the bills yourself.

Are there other issues with your mother besides those you've described? Do you believe her tendency to buy or do thing in a "not quite adequate manner" is intentional or unintentional? Do you have reason to believe that she is doing it purposely to cause you to suffer, or just because she misjudges sizes?

BellaVita
12-30-14, 08:45 PM
My question is....how did you get personality disorders from small garbage bags?

Lunacie
12-30-14, 08:52 PM
I understand you are in a frustrating situation, but you just arrived here.
You might give us a chance before you bite our heads off.

None of us can make a diagnosis, and can't really give much advice on the
information you've given us. No one said that they don't think your mother
has a problem, only that it's difficult for us to know if she actually does.

If you can get ahold of a copy, the book "Is It You, Me, or Adult ADHD?"
by Gina Pera might help you sort all this out.

duckotaco
12-30-14, 09:39 PM
Thanks for your reply namazu, which I find totally reasonable.


(Also, poor problem-solving and decision-making skills could stem from many different causes. Do you get the sense that these issues bother her, too, or only you?)


Yes I do. She does quite a bit of hoarding. She had two rooms in the house she could not organize and she would fill with useless object and she would go crazy at the idea of throwing them out. I came to the suspicion of ADD when discovering the existence of the hoarding disorder and seeing ADD could be related.

Her hoarding is not the worst of the world. She simply has severe problems organizing her dressing room and closet and knowing where to put the useless things she is overly attached to. As an example she collects TOWELS. We are two people in the house and she had a collection of about 150 towels, not kidding. I threw half of them away one day (seriously, don't you think 70 towels will be ok for us?) and she went ballistic. Still hasn't recovered and still is resentful for the towels. I threw them away because we had a roach infestation and I need to clean up at least some of the clutter. She put so many obstacles into this because she would not want me to put my hands in those two rooms filled with useless stuff (stuff that are of objectively low value for most of us, like the enormous emoung of towels). She has time where she's reasonable and times where she's less. I was lucky enough to find her at a reasonable time where she understood the need to clean up some clutter in her dressing room and closet because roaches started multiplying. There were more fights, because she would suddently and unpredictably (tried hard to find what the triggers were, but sometimes they come out of the blue) become extremely neurotic and get mad at the most insignificant of things, forgetting the needs and results we needed to accomplish with the roach purge affair. After much battles, the job was done and she often THANKS me both for cleaning the clutter, and doing the roach control. Unfortunately, she also easily slips back to blaming and accusing me of nonsense, refusing to take responsibility, claiming I am "exaggerated" in my methods because I threw away those towels - as said, she still resents that. But now that the roach control is done, we can avoid those conflicts. It's been an actual war but now I am more relaxed because the whole house is cleaner, much better organized and I only need to make sure she doesn't begin hoarding again, and I'm confident this can be done. I am also thankful she doesn't have the severe hoarding I have heard of. My dad (now dead) was a hoarder too, collecting piles of newspapers! She would get mad at that, but then what do you know, she began doing the same with towels, coats, dishes, shoes, table cloths, and others.

So, back to your question: "Do you get the sense that these issues bother her, too, or only you?"

Yes, she basically confirmed and said that herself a few times. For years, she would claim she "needs" to organize her cluttery spaces, but she simply doesn't seem to know how to do it. The procrastination was because she doesn't seem to have the ability to organize. She would get nervous just at the idea. She would look at the mess and not know where to start, and simply give up. I think the main thing was the fear of throwing away stuff. I am sure this is neurotic hoarding. She also keeps expired foods in the fridge for YEARS. MASSES of expired foods. She simply hates throwing away stuff.

I have listened, examined, asked her. She doesn't seem to think in a linear way. She complicates things needlessly. She is catastrophic, she mades up the most unlikely of disasters and freezes of fear like they were actually occurring. She would take a WHILE to accept the most simple and linear of logic. It is always a battle to make her understand something SIMPLE, see SIMPLE solutions to problems. She simply has very bad problem solving skills. When she does solve things, it is in the most creative, non-linear of ways. Never straightforward. I grew up thinking that was a normal way to do things, then thought she was just "artistic" and a bit weird. In the last few years, I realized she simply thinks in a very twisted way. It is so extreme I often wonder whether she does things on purpose to complicate other people's lives (that was the question on Yahoo on the bags...does she do it to annoy me?). But as I'm saying she has difficulties organizing HERSELF as well. I read ADHD people can have all their life in a mess. Difficulty in organizing finances, job life, etc. My mother doesn't even have a bank account, that would be too organized for her. She keeps her money in the air. Some there, some other there. I don't get into that because it's none of my business. But the point is that she is disorganized and seems to have poor problem solving skills with her own businesses too. You, ask, does it "bother" her? Maybe the towels, not. It bothers her than they're gone. But she showed frustration at not knowing how to clean the clutter in her wardrobe, for example. And great anxiety at the idea of throwing away stuff. This is hoarding to me and the lack of organization to me is ADHD. Because she's not autistic. And she's not demented.

Plus she's extremely impatient, distractible, and is almost impossible for her to stand still and have a normal conversation. Since ever. THESE are undisputed signs of ADHD to me. For some time I just thought it was "extreme impatience", and here too, she confessed to "not know why I'm like that", and realized that could be a problem for herself and others, and that is not a normal way to be. Yet, she tried to be different, but she can't. And then I read on ADHD and it sounds like that to me. Can't stand still. Constantly moving, doing things just for the sake of doing them. Impatient, doesn't listen, IMPULSIVE, doesn't read social clues, speaks on top of others, is sometimes reckless (this I thought it was due to senility and I suspected dementia! She is totally irresponsible at times, and unsanitary), difficulties comprehending very simple and linear arguments ("could she be THAT stupid!?" I used to ask myself), this incredible talent for overcomplicating things. The garbage, she made a mess out of the simplicity of throwing out the garbage. Pointless extra bins, pointlessly not following the city's rules on when the garbage has to be out - she simply has problems managing time and efforts.

Basically she runs the whole day, from the moment she waskes up to when she goes to sleep in front of the TV. She needs to do things, she doesn't do them for a result - it's just the need of doing something. "Result" is one of the concepts she doesn't really seem to grasp. She always moves just for the sake of moving, she constantly runs away, she is in a rush against herself. She forgets that something needs to be done for THAT. She works and does things simply to keep busy. I had to explain to her many times that the de-cluttering was for an easier life and to get rid of roaches, because she would constantly forget it. She forgets the goal, she doesn't want goals. She just wants to run away from everything.

I used to get nervous and try to slow her down, but I learned to stop doing it. Too much effort for nothing. She is not capable to slow down.

Tonight, I asked her if her mind is usually still of if she has a lot going on usually. The answer is the latter. Apparently, she rushes the whole day so she can fall asleep easily at night. That is her method. Since I can't sleep, I will overexert like it can never have a bad consequence the whole day, getting busy with completely pointless tasks just so I can be tired at night and sleep. This is how my mum solves problems. But creating a much bigger problem. This is how she approaches EVERYTHING. I used to try to make her see that maybe there could be better, simpler, less fatiguing solutions. I gave up and I'm happy I did.

- she refuses to follow linear logic and live simply. She is entrapped in the web of her own overcomplications.
- the "run run so I can sleep" thing points that her mind is agitated and she would not sleep if she wasn't extremely tired because of overexertion during the day. She is an actual workaholic. Again, no way to stop her there and I gave up long ago.

She is a mess and her life is a mess, and a pointless mess. As I type this, I am not stressed out. I understand just hearing this can make many people feel extremely on edge, but I have now accepted this and gave up fighting against it.

She is troubled, she went through traumas, my dad died recently, and she's probably depressed as well. So yeah, all this bothers her too. But she doesn't have a culture of PROBLEM SOLVING. She doesn't know what it means to fix something. She is never proactive or active at all. She is always passive, frightened to perform any move, and she simply leaves things as they are.

Fine. I'm leaving her as she is too. I only intervene when it impacts me directly. After I decluttered the home, I have much less reason to do so. Yesterday we had the garbage argument. We already established how we would manage garbage, but she ****** it up. If she was a normal person, I would have thought she did it on purpose. But, no. She simply have troubles doing things normally. She needs to **** it up, to make it complicated. The garbage was simple, but she insists on the smaller bags for no logical reason. I asked her the reason. There was no reason. There was only anger at my question. I think she gets angry because her brain gives up when it's about being organized, practical and simple. She is just wired in some other way.

So, I gave some more elements on why I think it's ADHD. Now, in my Yahoo question, I added the childhood thing (yes of course now I choose my clothes...she was when I was a child. I'm 25 now) as I'm connecting dots in a hipe to understand better than specific behavior. Why is she obsessed with keeping things inadequately small!? She could perfectly go large with much less effort or the same, instead she stubbornly INSISTS with the too tiny garbage bag, which gives NO advantage but only INCONVENIENCE. She sees no reason and gets mad when pointed out that the bigger bag could be better. This. Could it be because of a lack of organizational and problem solving skills attributable to ADHD?

- she's impatient and incapable to stay still. independently from the garbage thing, I think she has ADHD.
- I have read that ADHD changes cognition, organization, and all of that. So my theory is that it's ADD that gives that small garbage bag behavior. because I can't possibly think of anything else. If she would do something even weirder, then I would strongly suspect dementia.

She could have Mild Cognitive Impairment. She could have some brain damage. I just hope she doesn't insist on the small garbage bag as a way to annoy me. But looking at the bigger picture I TEND to say no, she doesn't do it just to annoy me. but I'm not sure. Even then, I'm just going to accept it and manage. The garbage thing is no big deal. I buy myself properly sized wear.

" Do you believe her tendency to buy or do thing in a "not quite adequate manner" is intentional or unintentional? Do you have reason to believe that she is doing it purposely to cause you to suffer, or just because she misjudges sizes?"

That is the question. My question is what it looks like to others from the outside. Would you think it's intentional or not? I just can't be sure. I asked her, she gets angry too. So both are still possible. She could have narcissism, borderline, and this could be a passive aggressive way to **** with my brain. Makes all the sense in the world. The fact that she gets mad when I ask her is still coherent. That's how she would respond if it were true. But still it doesn't confirm 100%.

I'm not sure it changes anything at that point. If anything, it changes the urgency with which I should run away from this house. But the situation is complex and in the end it wouldn't change a thing. Whatever the reason she does that I have to be patient, accept it, keep calm and move on. There is no solution. I am fortunate she doesn't want to kill me. Sure, I would prefer she would not be that disfunctional, but there's nothing I can do about it. As you say I cannot force her to do anything and even then, I'm not sure she can be helped. I doubt it. I doubt medicines would solve more problems than they make.

I just don't know if that is my mother's case. Also, now I'm an adult and I'm equipped to face her eventual "abuse" as a man. Living with her has been extremely stressful, I won't lie, but you'll find people around who have had it much worse. Take for example, the serious hoarding cases where you wouldn't be able to touch a single towel the mentally ill person collects without getting killed. There's many horror stories. They can't even do anything about their roaches infestation. If that isn't hell on earth, what is?

I tamed the situation the way I could, and tamed the roach infestation and the towel accumulation...It's been a challenge and it will keep being so.

"Are you running into problems with electricity or water service being discontinued due to failure to pay bills? If so, and the problem is poor organization rather than lack of funds, consider setting up auto-bill-pay or taking care of the bills yourself."

Thanks goodness no. She has NO memory of when and how she payed the bills, it all happens randomly but eventually she does pay the bills somehow. I'm sure if I'd look into it I would see the way she does it is overly and unnecessarely complicated. Obviously she could just set up auto-bill-pay with a bank account, but see, when it's about making life simpler she becomes a monster. Anyway, bills have been payed so far, everything's fine. If that will happen one day, I'll take care of the situation.

"While it may be unpleasant to live with someone with whom you cannot converse, that may just be the way it has to be if you want to avoid arguments."

THIS is good advice, I thank you for that, and it is my path of action. I occupy my own spaces at home and avoid confronting my mother at all on anything. It is hard for me to avoid even talking to her, but it's the best way, as you say, to avoid fighting. I have decided to only say hi once in a while and have a brief chat about nothing. I can do this now, after I fixed the roach problem. I WOULD HAVE NOT ACCEPTED LIVING AMONG ROACHES. And it's not happening thanks to my intervention. But in the process, I learned that my mum is actually impossible. Until I'm forced to stay here, I will avoid confrontation. It can be done. I just need to resist that compulsion. It's taking time for me to adjust to the reality of the situation. My mum does not seem completely crazy from the outside, it's all a subtle thing, but now that I know that she simply doesn't think "right", I accept it and move on.

The question is still open, and I was hoping someone with experience would identify this as a pattern of behavior in some people. There is a song by Alanis Morrissette that says "it's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a fork". That's what my mother does with the garbage bag. She makes sure she and I have to FIGHT with garbage everyday, because else - THEORY - life would be too simple and nice and she doesn't want that. Don't you see how this small thing can become unnerving? This is what psychopaths do. They create SUBTLE abuses that don't look much like abuse, that society isn't going to punish them for, because that's the smart and cowardly way to do it - abusing without abusing. Society must learn to see their tricks.

When one does something TO ANNOY YOU ON PURPOSE, it's abuse. Tiny abuse, but still abuse. And tiny abuse, when repeated, can be extremely stressful.

She can have plenty of reasons to want to annoy me. She can well be resentful, passive aggressive, and want to ruin me. To some point, SHE UNDOUBTEDLY DOES, she is a passive aggressive woman and she certainly resents me for many reason, one of them being having thrown away her towels. She is not sane, that's a fact. So I'm just seeing someone here commenting "My question is....how did you get personality disorders from small garbage bags?". I don't know...why don't you try to analyse things better and maybe you figure out that abuse can take many forms, including garbage bags. If somebody uses a garbage bag to suffucate you, would you still say "how can one think a garbage bag can be something bad"? That's typical psychopathic talk actually. It's called LYING, DECEIVING. Something my mother does a lot. Can my mum behavior with garbage bags indicate perosnality disorders? Yes. She insists on using bags that are too small preferring them to larger, more comfortable ones. It's like choosing clothes or shoes that are not of the right size, and avoiding the right ones. At the very least it's a sign of EXTREME STUPIDITY. Since I can't beliueve ANYONE is THAT stupid, I think it's a sign of lack of organization and problem solving skills possibly due to ADHD or cognitive function impairment. As I read online, ADULT ADD CAN BE SUBTLE, AND HARD TO DIAGNOSE. If you think everything must be in your face and anything that isn't obvious then it is not, and garbage bags are to be ignored you're a simpleton.

No, psychopaths don't talk like I am. They don't accuse their mother of being a psychopath. VICTIMS of psychopaths do that.

That's why the question here is: does she do it to annoy me, or because she just can't do things simple and right?

But again...I am trying to understand if that is my mother's case. I don't know. But people seem to be biased and think a mother can never want to do any harm to her son. ********. Hatred is a sentiment present in ALL HUMAN BEINGS in some form and extent. There is nothing like cleanliness, purity or innocence. Everyone is a crazy mother****er, especially people who look very clean like my mother.

I really hope she doesn't annoy me on purpose - that is precisely my question. Not expecting anyone to be able to tell. There exists complicated, subtle, hard to figure out situations - this is one of them. I was hoping to find some actual expert or psychiatrist here. Maybe I'll have to look elsewhere.

But thanks namazu and sorry if the post is too long.

duckotaco
12-30-14, 09:48 PM
I understand you are in a frustrating situation, but you just arrived here.
You might give us a chance before you bite our heads off.

no biting. That's right, give yourselves a chance to see what's wrong with my mother, before telling me to just leave home (which I can't do) and leave her being the crazy woman she is, harming herself and others in the process.

the problem here, is that there is no social help I can get. Doctors where I live suck, and "the guy" is automatically the bad guy. My neighbours believe I'm the bad guy and the psycho, without knowing anything of the situation. They just don't understand that a person apparently sane like my mother, could well be a psychopath.

My neighbours believe that no perfect looking person can ever serious have mental problems.

My mother looks perfect - typical of socially functioning mentally ill people.

Mentally ill people DO NOT LOOK MENTALLY ILL.

duckotaco
12-30-14, 09:53 PM
My question is....how did you get personality disorders from small garbage bags?

life = complicated

everything = possible

reality = often stranger than fiction

psychopathic people = strange and unpredictable; often subtle in MANIPULATING by ANY means

apparent insignificant matters = they could be very significant

insight and open mind, culture and knowledge od psychology = needed to understand human behavior.

duckotaco
12-30-14, 10:13 PM
My question is....how did you get personality disorders from small garbage bags?

You know...there are simple, logical, functional ways to do things, and then there's the mess.

My mother not only picks a messy way, she fights to hell against the implementation of the simpler method, doesn't ENJOY the simplicity of it like a normal logical person would do, and expects others to adapt to her insane twisted ways to NOT solve the problem at hand if not buy creating other twenty problems that are completely unnecessary.

And, she implements a method that is absolutely creative, original, and COUNTERINTUITIVE. Lately she added a second garbage bin for absolutely no reason, picking stuff up from one and putting it in the other, without any justifiable logic or argument on why she would do that. But that is just stupidity.

perhaps she doesn't have a personality disorder nor ADD...maybe it's just her way.

But if "her way" means being like that, then she = stupid nut to me; period.

My mother has a pattern of extreme lack of logic I have never seen before. There's a line between normality and abnormality I think she crosses. By reading the garbage thing, you should think she isn't normal - like a few friends of mine think. They at the very least think she is extremely neurotic - that is, THE single most extremely neurotic person on earth. But usually they agree with me there's something more deep-rooted, that is, personality disorder. Some suggested DEMENTIA, others AUTISM because of that and other behaviors.
We haven't discussed ADD specifically, it's a new theory of mine which I find pretty convincing and I went into more detail in another post now.

If you think giving a child clothes too small no matter how much he complains is normal for a mother, instead of just choosing the right size, you'd make a very bad mother.

You know, personality disorders and ADHD...are problems in THINKING, COGNITION, and EXECUTIVE FUNCTION. A person who can't just use a single garbage bin, and needs to multiply it, and do other complicated things just to throw the garbage, doesn't think straight OR enjoys being an idiot for the sake of it OR is trying to **** with me.

And, why did she buy me pants, shoes and other clothes that were too small, ALL my childhood? That IS abuse. It's left to see whether she did it because she's crazy, stupid, or something else. But it IS abuse. The mistery is whether she did it on purpose or not. Do you think crazy people go around saying "alert, everyone! I am crazy and I will **** with you!". They don't. It's all about deceit and being covert and unhonest. My mother lies with extreme naturality, it's in her nature. She's a liar. So I'm open to the idea she's a psychopath.

But, for now, I find ADHD more convincing. I'm not convinced she could be that evil on purpose. I am absolutely sure that she has subconscious evil, instead. Because everyone is evil and that's a fact. Innocence is a myth. People are evil, peopole are **** ups and so is my mother. Give up the delusion people are nice.

Everyone is disordered and crazy, just some more. Be negative, please, drop the optimistic ********.

javamonster
12-31-14, 04:00 AM
Sounds like you need to get out of the house as much as possible.

You want verifications of your rantings about your mother, which I doubt anyone here can give you, since we don't know her and we don't know you, except from what you've written. You are being as unpleasant as you make her out to be.

Take the garbage out. Rewrite the script. Don't engage, learn what the triggers are. It's not easy. It takes focus and consistency. It means taking a step or two, or ten back when you feel provoked.

What matters more than diagnosing her is dealing with your own rage and anger.

Mittens
12-31-14, 06:43 AM
This isn't ADD related, but may be relevant to your Mom.

My Mom was always a pack rat - and after my parents got divorced (*very* ugly and traumatic) her 'mini-hoarding' escalated huge.

Hoarders, of any degree, tend to find comfort in 'things', surrounding themselves with stuff. It's a security and control thing. If that was the case - it would never be about 150 towels, and more about you taking control away from her and security by throwing them out. Ie. Garbage bags - maybe she knows they are too small, but the decision is still hers and she doesn't want to give up that control.

With my Mom, she is a great lady. I've worked with her a lot and it's always successful when it's in a loving, supportive, 'safe' and respectful way.

An example, she has a bum back and MS, and is moving in with my husband and I on March 1st. She knows her apartment *full* of things won't fit, however my husband has a warehouse and is letting her store whatever she needs there so my house won't get cluttered but she still has the option to keep whatever of her things she wants. I've never told her she "can't" do this or that, but i've asked her about if there are things she doesn't necessarily have attachments too, or doesn't feel the need to move, and told her the things that are important to her will always have a safe place to be. After that *she* decided her goal was to sort through and get rid of about 40-50% of the stuff in her place before the move. I don't pack anything *for* her (meaning without her direction and her being the one in control of the situation / making the decision), however I ask her what I can put where, and ask her how I am able to help.

She mentioned she was over whelmed as there is a TON of stuff, so I suggested starting small and manageable - make an attainable list and work on small victories. Ie, starting with *a* book shelf. Once the book shelf is done, cross it off, and pick say, a table, or whatever. It made her feel much better 1) having the decisions of the specifics be all hers, 2) knowing I respected her and would take her direction and 3) made her feel safe being the one in control, but also supported as I was still there to help.

We move a few boxes a week right now because slow and steady is what is comfortable for her.

A year or so ago she was out at my place for 3 months recovering from back surgery. There was a carrot cake in the fridge that had expired a couple weeks previously and I threw it out.
She FREAKED.
Now, if I notice something say in the fridge that's expired i'll ask her if I can throw it out, or if I am out somewhere can I get her a new one? If I ask her she'll say sure, throw it out - it's expired anyhow, and if it's something she still wants she has the option of me picking up a fresh whatever for her.

Respect, patience and support (with my mom) and her neurotic ways is very important, and if things aren't 'just so' in the seemingly disorganized or nonsensical way it causes her major stress. I don't begin to understand, but I empathize and love her dearly, so I try to do what I can to meet my needs (i'm the polar opposite and a clean freak, so things like asking if I can throw out anything expired and keep the fridge nice and tidy) while also meeting her needs in a way that is comfortable for her and not stressful, trying to make it as supportive as possible by letting her give me direction, make the decision, and feel respected.

Death of a loved one is *huge* in and of itself. Is counseling an option for her, you, or both? 25 is very young to lose a parent, and I couldn't imagine how hard that must be. Heck, everyone has their own emotional 'stuff' and counseling can really be a positive thing - there's a stigma counseling is just for anyone with a diagnosis, but it can be beneficial for people that have all their ducks in a row as well without imminent or obvious challenges or situational trauma.

I am not going to comment on anything else as you mentioned feeling strongly on quite a few points / aspects of your situation, and I don't know you or your mom, but that is just my experience with my Mom. Her actions / intentions quite often don't reflect her feelings or thoughts accurately (or even remotely), but she is an amazing woman with a huge, loving heart.

Wowwowwow
12-31-14, 06:47 AM
Not familiar ,never heard that term ?i heard go easy,that I have heard!:yes:

stef
12-31-14, 07:29 AM
I don't think anyone here will disagree, that your Mom has some very serious issues. We aren't specialists though, this is a support forum.
Can you get her some professional help? can you convince her to see someone? (sorry if this was mentioned earlier, I didn't read everthing in detail).

And you might want to consider counseling for yourself! you really have a lot to deal with, I hope you can find some solutions.

Little Missy
12-31-14, 07:33 AM
One of the most difficult things in life is the realization that the only person you can control is yourself.

tazoz
12-31-14, 02:48 PM
In general people seek out stability and dislike changes. When we lose someone that we love, we lose a large part of who we are and our lives become extremely unstable as a result of the large changes brought on by the loss. As a result we search for ways to restabilize our lives. There are two main ways to do this, the first is to understand better our past through self reflection and discussion with others. The second is to attach ourselves to knew objects or people. This might explain your mother's rigidity of thinking. Once she lost her husband, she transferred her feelings of attachment from her husband to the objects in the house which hold significance to her. Furthermore, she developed repetitive habits that make her life predictable and stable. In a similar manner she formed strong beliefs that give her rules of conduct and consequently stability of perception.

Your desire to understand the past and your similar needs to find logic and create order might also be a symptom of the same loss. Any sense of anxiety that you feel about the prospect of making changes in your life and leaving your home might also be symptoms of the same loss. In general, talking to your mother about the past, helping her understand her loss and showing her love and understanding is probably the best way to approach the situation. On the issue of mental disorders, most of her issues can be explained by depression, loss and the resulting fear of change, for a person to be diagnosed with ADHD you need to look back to her childhood and see a clear pattern of attentional problems. Many of the symptoms of depression and anxiety are the same as ADHD, so both need to be ruled out or accounted for before giving an ADHD diagnosis.

One important thing to point out is that these behaviors that you characterize as being illogical can be considered completely logical if viewed from your mother's perspective. If indeed she uses an attachment to the objects and habits as a way to cope with the loss, the negative effect of removing them might far outweighs the positive such an action can have if she can't find an alternative way to cope. That's most likely the reason why she responded so badly when you threw out the towels.

tomsawyr
12-31-14, 03:15 PM
When did you first become concerned with your mom's problems?