In this post,

External Reference Hierarchical Mind (ERHM) = "Prototype non-ADD (normal)"
Internally Referenced Contextual Mind (IRCM) = "ADD is a subtype of IRCM (perhaps a majority)"


Here is a quick map of views based on cognitive types
Please understand that these are extreme prototypes and nobody fits them exactly (ERHM *can* be culturally questioning and IRCM *can* be culturally compliant. ERHM (non-ADD) described here is "unquestioning" This is a cultural prototype)

Internally Referenced Contextual Mind (IRCM or "ADD") social reality
1. Prioritization is done moment to moment
2. Cultural or shared reality is poorly understood (Cultural "signs" cannot be read)
3. Language is primarily informational
4. Social Reality is built internally from external observation
5. Social rules are learned through impulse/response behavior throughout life (It is generally supplanted and in some cases replaced by observation of others after puberty)
6. CM does not have a complete understanding of how to display status in order to find place in society. There is little or no attachment to age, gender or position.
7. CM does not attach easily to external definitions of individual (There is no "cultural mirror" to look in) There are fewer displays of status.



Externally Referenced Hierarchical Mind (ERHM or Non-ADD) social reality
1. Prioritization is often externally directed or follows patterns learned externally (from culture) It tends to be uniformly applied (unless gains can be had by not doing that) and more long term.
2. Cultural signs (understandings) are learned primarily during childhood and cemented during puberty. They then disappear from awareness. After that point the signs only appear in new social situations and can be read.
3. Language is primarily used to confirm status of self and other individuals in the culture and is more of a carrier wave..with body language doing a great degree of the "speaking" (small talk)
4. Abstract social reality is preassembled externally and installed into the mind below the level of awareness. (It is brought to awareness with questioning) It creates patterns that are stored for social predictive and behavioral purposes.
5. Social rules are learned through Impulse/response behavior in two phases in life. Once during childhood then through puberty and young adulthood. This method decreases in use after each phase and is followed by "below awareness pattern matching"
6. ERHM displays signs of status through many methods including stature, voice control, material possessions and relationships. There is strong attachment to age, gender and position.
7. ERHM attaches importance to title and external definition of worth through signs of status, position or subgroup identification.

Positive views:
IRCM (ADD) often sees ERHM (Non-ADD) as:
1. Stable, Ordered, Well Prioritized
2. Able to read people
3. Good communicators
4. Able to fit in and be inclusive
5. Able to be organized and principled
6. Has and maintains nice things, takes care of property, has good sense of goals
7. Knows how to dress well, knows what to wear and when, knows where they are and where they are going.

ERHM (non-ADD) often sees IRCM (ADD) as:
1. Able to be spontaneous, have a good time and speak mind
2. Brave, unorthodox, creative
3. Honest and blunt, Humorous, smart
4. Natural leader, questioning mind
5. Able to see foolish rules, entrepreneurial, free spirited
6. Out of the box thinker
7. Unique fashion sense



Negative views:
IRCM (ADD) often sees ERHM (non-ADD) as:
1. Rigid in priorities, stiff, boring, unable to "get over it"
2. Expecting IRCM to be "mind readers", dishonest, plays by hidden rules
3. Talking about nothing, Shallow, boring conversationalists, women act prude and distant, men are aggressive
4. Living in a "fantasy world" with no connection to reality
5. Unable to be themselves... marionettes, unquestioning of standard beliefs, close minded.
6. Shallow, possessive of people, materialistic, shaming, playing mind games to get what they want, Uniform, unable to from opposite gender friendships outside marriage
7. Macho, Foofy, show offs, neat freaks, too worried about fashion and makeup, no sense of personal style


ERHM (non-ADD) often sees IRCM (ADD) as:
1. Putting ERHM partner lower in priority than other people or things, flakey, irresponsible, selfish, putting self first
2. Unable to understand ERHM individual even when they are being "clear". Inappropriate, giving "TMI", Plays by hidden rules, untrustworthy, hurtfully honest, rude, deceptive, petty
Talks too much, uses odd vocabulary, self centered discussions, arrogant, smart *ss, Incomprehensible, manipulating conversation, women are "c***teases", Men are overly s*x*aly aggressive, inappropriate staring and facial expressions
3. Rude, rebellious, can't let things be, does not have common sense, odd, bizarre, insensitive
4. Impulsive, boundary pushing, overt, button pusher, mean, hurtful, wild, uncontrollable
5. Does not know their place, authority challenging, unaware of important people, hangs out with the wrong crowd, dates people too young or too old, friends are not from the "same side of the tracks", wife has too many close male friends, husband has too many close female friends
6. Unable to commit in relationships and jobs, no drive, immature, tomboyish, effeminate, women are too assertive, mean have weak spines, unable to manage people, permissive parent, lazy
7. Masculine women, girlish men, shy, unkempt, too lazy to wear correct clothes or makeup, bizarre taste in clothes, wears age inappropriate clothing


ERHM in positive state:
Is happy with place in society or trying to achieve better position
ERHM in negative state:
Is unhappy with place in society not trying to achieve better position

IRCM in positive state:
Is happy with self, loves the way they are and think
IRCM In negative state:
Believes what ERHM thinks (see list above) negatively about them and wants to be like ERHM. Does not like self. Considers self to be disordered

ERHM and IRCM get along best when both individuals are in positive state.


Explanations:

It was pointed out that ERHM and IRCM are arbitrary terms. They are *new* terms that I am using to describe functional cognitive types within the human species. In the case of ADD, Internal reference goes a long way to explain the issues that affect the ADDer in society and cause problems in relationships. Internal reference causes a very incomplete understanding of "shared social reality" or culture. This leads to constant misunderstandings. Eventually many ADDers withdraw emotionally in order to shelter themselves from the "ERHM often sees IRCM as" list. These can become the self view of the ADDer. The goal here is not to belittle people who do not have ADD or say that they are shallow but to point out differences in perception that lead to failed relationships between people who understand the culture and those who do not (even though they think they do).


A functional relationship does not depend on the ADDer "fixing themselves" or "being fixed". There is no fixing to do. There is healing to be done. In a relationship between two people both sides need to try to understand the other in positive supportive terms. It is my goal to facilitate this. The best relationship is one between to healthy people who love themselves and each other.


One last note...the ERHM is a very simple description. I am aware of the creativity and intelligence that non-ADDers have... most of the people I know and love are not ADD. My son is not... Please do not view the ERHM as a stereotype. It is simply a functional type in the the model of cognitive reference.

If I could write something that would explain every ADD and non-ADDer it would be billions of pages long... So I am settling on "questioned reductionism" :)

not sure about the generalized gender ambiguity for ADD folks, of those I've personally met, 2 are men men and 1 was man and a bit.

I'm not particularly hurt or offended by how you have described the negative view of my group of non ADD. In fact, if my friend were to tease me a little about these things I would find it rather endearing and amusing. Anyway...I'm pretty sure I have a fair number of these characteristics according to him.

You didn't mention the time thing between the two groups

I wouldn't say that IRCM is happy with themselves, of the group I personally know they are all trying to better themselves and get somewhere.

On the positive side, I've found that IRCM positive: very sensitive and caring. The hard part is getting their attention. That is not the same as uncaring.

Also your description of ADD negatives is much harsher than your negative nonADD group. I think you have a personal bias there.

The things I've experienced and that other people experience of their ADD friends/spouses are often more about lack of attentiviness (post newness factor) and avoidance/inability of discussing/resolving issues. Those seem to be the biggies that happen over and over. Oh and problems with anger/frustration.

Of the negative ADD comments, I don't recognize the ADD folks with whom I have personal relatinships. They are so much nicer than that inside.

Hopefully you'll get more comments from others too.

This was much easire to read, btw.

foofy?

foofy?
Ultra girly girl...I just don't know a term....

not sure about the generalized gender ambiguity for ADD folks, of those I've personally met, 2 are men men and 1 was man and a bit.

I'm not particularly hurt or offended by how you have described the negative view of my group of non ADD. In fact, if my friend were to tease me a little about these things I would find it rather endearing and amusing. Anyway...I'm pretty sure I have a fair number of these characteristics according to him.

You didn't mention the time thing between the two groups

I wouldn't say that IRCM is happy with themselves, of the group I personally know they are all trying to better themselves and get somewhere.

On the positive side, I've found that IRCM positive: very sensitive and caring. The hard part is getting their attention. That is not the same as uncaring.

Also your description of ADD negatives is much harsher than your negative nonADD group. I think you have a personal bias there.

The things I've experienced and that other people experience of their ADD friends/spouses are often more about lack of attentiviness (post newness factor) and avoidance/inability of discussing/resolving issues. Those seem to be the biggies that happen over and over. Oh and problems with anger/frustration.

Of the negative ADD comments, I don't recognize the ADD folks with whom I have personal relatinships. They are so much nicer than that inside.

Hopefully you'll get more comments from others too.

This was much easire to read, btw.
Thanks!

This does not apply to all ADDers...but there are some trends. Most women do not see me as effeminate but internally I actually rate closer to a woman on the androgeny scale.

The negatives are possibly a bit harsher, just because I have heard them so often... and I rarely ever think about the negatives that I might personally feel towards the non ADD...actually I really don't think well in those terms and I think ADDers tend not to so much because I just don't see as many rants fronm the ADD side about their non ADD partners like I see from the other way around... tricky and hard to balance.

I really appreciate your insights!

The time thing is a good one. I should included that. ADDers do not think in linear time... It can make for some upsetting miscommunication and failed expectations. I lived in Japan and Germany so I developed methods of dealing with time... it was really needed in those countries. I will include time in a future version.

The frustration and anger are a bit out of the scope in that I am talking about perception. I had loads of anger from my non-ADD wife and I was a pretty caring guy... at least I thought I seemed that way. I never raised my voice, even when I felt like I was being attacked... But that is just my case. There are a lot of angry people on both sides.

This is not by any means an attempt to show everybody but more a mapping of one person's perception to the way the thinks. If anyone can learn even one thing that can help them... I am pretty happy with that.

Yes, this is a pretty decent model, goes a long way to compare and contrast the two groups. Good stuff and very helpful too because it is pretty down to earth.

I've met 2 foofies. They were so feminine I felt like a man. Very very weird feeling.

Interesting characteristics. I like the list of contrasting beliefs that lead to conflicts between ADDers and others. That part is useful and could be developed further. And the foofies!

But, the traits for ADDers boarders on the autism spectrum (language as informational, for example) and seem to be too universal.

And the characterists of non-Adders attempts to define most other folks in contrast to the ADDers (an impossible task). There are relatively few ADDers in the pop (say 5%), and I bet you'd identify many more normal people who meet meet the internal/contextual range of social traits (and some of our autistic brethern) than ADDers. So, I don't think you're getting at the unique qualities of ADD here.

In any case, this is a fine effort, but maybe if you start with a couple of examples of social dissonance between an ADDer and a specific normal person, that would be helpful for me.

Cheers,

Interesting characteristics. I like the list of contrasting beliefs that lead to conflicts between ADDers and others. That part is useful and could be developed further. And the foofies!

But, the traits for ADDers boarders on the autism spectrum (language as informational, for example) and seem to be too universal.

And the characterists of non-Adders attempts to define most other folks in contrast to the ADDers (an impossible task). There are relatively few ADDers in the pop (say 5%), and I bet you'd identify many more normal people who meet meet the internal/contextual range of social traits (and some of our autistic brethern) than ADDers. So, I don't think you're getting at the unique qualities of ADD here.

In any case, this is a fine effort, but maybe if you start with a couple of examples of social dissonance between an ADDer and a specific normal person, that would be helpful for me.

Cheers,Thanks for the input!

This is why I am actually using IRCM. Autism is IR and I sense that there may be a mix of IRCM and IRHM in autism. I do agree...we are talking a really big sampling here but the idea is to take a look at *possible* perceptions of External reference and internal referenced people. CM actually is a bit downplayed. I include it in the prioritization and crime_scene mentions "time" issues (these are both issues of not having *primary sub-awareness* processing of culturally abstracted or artificial concepts that are out of the range of normal "animal existance".)

So...in future iterations, the CM will be explored.

Mapping out human perception is a monumental task. The concept of Internal reference is very new. I personally feel that it is a bit more of a switch than a continuum (ie parts of the brain have been turned off in ADD in order to achieve a massively contextual mind). This is why using language *primarily* as informational is seen in both autism and ADD (In autism it is almost *just* used for information.) It is a bit of a gant chart when you include the three continua that I am seeing (the observation continuum (high, medium, low) is not mentioned here... for example IRCMLO or IRHMLO would be low functioning autism as opposed to ADD on the IRCMHO end of things)

When you figure in personal temperment...it gets massively complex. So I am trying to find the line between something accurate enough that people can get something out of it and too much complexity.

I really appreciate your idea of having individual case studies!

If anyone has anecdotes that will help, I would love to see them :)

and "foofies"...what would anyone here call a woman percieved as super feminine (opposite of macho) in negative terms? That is just my silly word... IR idiolect.

Ok, I'm going to add my two cents in. I believe human beings are, in general, shaped by their environmental factors, in childhood, and throughout their adult state. Whether ADD/HD or not, people are going to view and exhibit personality traits and perceptions according to that shaping process that took place. There are some basic 'general' influences that you've mentioned, Chain, for 'both' (if I can even call it that, since I don't really view myself differently from most, whether ADD/HD or not, but differently from another's shaping aspect), but I believe those general traits you mentioned also have to do with shaping/developmental damage/personality disorders or whatever anyone chooses to call it. The compatibility of those shaping aspects, and the willingness to recognize them, and work along with them, is what makes ALL groups get along.
Speaking from my own personal experience, I find myself, as an ADD/HDer to reflect the following 'tweaked' generalities to your 'groups':


Positive views:
IRCM (ADD) often sees ERHM (Non-ADD) as:
3. Somewhat Good communicators
4. Mostly Able to fit in and be inclusive
5. Able to be organized and is somewhat principled
6. May or may not Have and maintain nice things, takes care of property, has good sense of goals
7. Very rarely Knows how to dress well, knows what to wear and when, knows where they are and where they are going.

ERHM (non-ADD) often sees IRCM (ADD) as:
1. Able to be spontaneous, have a good time and speak mind
2. Brave, unorthodox, creative
3. Honest and blunt, Humorous, smart
4. Natural leader, questioning mind
5. Able to see foolish rules, entrepreneurial, free spirited
6. Out of the box thinker
7. Unique fashion sense when in a relaxed setting
8. Able to read people through intuitive means
9. Able to delve into deeper aspects of reflective thinking (goes with #6)
10. Is unable to answer with one only one word responses


Negative views:
IRCM (ADD) often sees ERHM (non-ADD) as:
1. Rigid in priorities, inflexible
2. Unable to read people
3. Shallow, boring conversationalists, conservative
5. Unable to be themselves... marionettes, unquestioning of standard beliefs, close minded.
6. Shallow, possessive, materialistic, shaming,
7. Insecure


ERHM (non-ADD) often sees IRCM (ADD) as:
1. Putting ERHM partner lower in priority than other people or things, flakey, irresponsible, selfish, putting self first
2.Talks too much, sporadic sentence structure, self centered discussions, arrogant, extremely intelligent, smart **s, highly s*x*aly
3. Rude, rebellious, can't let things be, does not have common sense, odd, bizarre, insensitive
4. Impulsive, boundary pushing, overt, button pusher,uncontrollable
5. authority challenging, unaware of important people, friends are not from the "same side of the tracks", unable to play by the rules unless they apply to the situation at hand.
6. Unable to commit in relationships and jobs
7. Can't tell time :)


ERHM in positive state:
Is still unhappy with place in society or trying to achieve better position
ERHM in negative state:
Is unhappy with place in society, always trying to achieve better position

IRCM in positive state:
Is happy with self, loves the way they are, their thought structure
IRCM In negative state:
Does not like self. Considers self to be disorderedly. Aloof, solitary

ERHM and IRCM get along best when both individuals are in positive state.

when I read the first part, it makes me think that ADD sees Non ADD as an undefinable mish mash of characteristics, because if we are maybe this or maybe that or sometimes something, that really means that we are not stereotypical to you in any way.

that would be interesting, because every group can be stereotyped and stereotypes are useful in this instance

So 50% of the time ADD'ers are happy with self and place in life. Non-ADD'ers are ALWAYS unhappy?

Is that what I just read or did I get it backwards?

So 50% of the time ADD'ers are happy with self and place in life. Non-ADD'ers are ALWAYS unhappy?

Is that what I just read or did I get it backwards?
No percentages there :) No ALWAYS and no NEVERs...people are dynamic and one moment may be positive and another may be not.

IRCM is actually beyond ADD and can include individuals in the Autistic spectrum. ERHM is a vague concept.

when I read the first part, it makes me think that ADD sees Non ADD as an undefinable mish mash of characteristics, because if we are maybe this or maybe that or sometimes something, that really means that we are not stereotypical to you in any way.

that would be interesting, because every group can be stereotyped and stereotypes are useful in this instance
Actually I prefer what I call "functional types". Stereotypes tend to be subjective and can be offensive.

It does seem like a mish mash... It needs to be studied more and defined better, but this is a first attempt, and I am happy you guys are thinking about this!

Ok, I'm going to add my two cents in. I believe human beings are, in general, shaped by their environmental factors, in childhood, and throughout their adult state. Whether ADD/HD or not, people are going to view and exhibit personality traits and perceptions according to that shaping process that took place. There are some basic 'general' influences that you've mentioned, Chain, for 'both' (if I can even call it that, since I don't really view myself differently from most, whether ADD/HD or not, but differently from another's shaping aspect), but I believe those general traits you mentioned also have to do with shaping/developmental damage/personality disorders or whatever anyone chooses to call it. The compatibility of those shaping aspects, and the willingness to recognize them, and work along with them, is what makes ALL groups get along.
Speaking from my own personal experience, I find myself, as an ADD/HDer to reflect the following 'tweaked' generalities to your 'groups':



Thanks Nova!

I really like your tweaks...and they are closer to how I would define myself.

The idea here is to make an attempt to "cut nurture" out. Nurture is how we are all different and these groups are devoid of "nurture" in order to be more universal. The only nurture I am including is cultural nurture on the ERHM side.

In my case, I actually do great long term prioritization because of learning strategies to do that. I am a bit better with time than most due to needing strategies to deal with living in Japan, Thailand and Germany where time is very important.

But these strategies are secondary to my nature and there are chinks in the armour. I feel that ADDers are indeed close to one another in personality. I have know so many in my life (I was dx'd in the 4th grade and hung with a somewhat ADD crowd. I was raised by ADDers who had ADD friends...all individuals, mind you but the similarities were amazing)

This is how I started to see internal reference. We ADDers in our ability to observe often consider ourselves master of what other people have a hard time understanding... so why would we not understand something that they take for granted? This is an argument that hides us from some of our difficulties in understanding the culture at large. Our world view does not synchronize with people around us who have a shared world view (or a shared group view).

Despite all of this, you are different from other ADDers and non-ADDers. We all are.

These models do not reflect just ADD or non-ADD, they also include people with Aspergers. ( I threw in ADD to keep it a bit more readable)

:) I love having such an intelligent group of people looking at this! It is really important to me. so, Thanks again!

Don't be afraid to let "me have it!" but if you see things you relate with that does help too!

On to another revision... it is still not clear enough.

Actually I prefer what I call "functional types". Stereotypes tend to be subjective and can be offensive.

It does seem like a mish mash... It needs to be studied more and defined better, but this is a first attempt, and I am happy you guys are thinking about this!
no, I mean after it was changed I think the EHRM became too mushy. you can't say anything about anything if there is no way to isolate general characteristics about a population. thats all.

Ultra girly girl...I just don't know a term....
You might have been thinking of "frou-frou" or "foo-foo"? LOL.

I wish that I had read this thread before reading some of the other debates regarding ADD and it's place in the world.

By Chain explaining ADD in such a sensitive way to those without ADD, I have gained a new understanding of my own.

If you ever write a book including case studies, I wish you would consider me, Chain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Internally Referenced Contextual Mind (IRCM or "ADD") social reality

1. Prioritization is done moment to moment -
2. Cultural or shared reality is poorly understood (Cultural "signs" cannot be read)
3. Language is primarily informational
4. Social Reality is built internally from external observation
5. Social rules are learned through impulse/response behavior throughout life (It is generally supplanted and in some cases replaced by observation of others after puberty)
6. CM does not have a complete understanding of how to display status in order to find place in society. There is little or no attachment to age, gender or position.
7. CM does not attach easily to external definitions of individual (There is no "cultural mirror" to look in) There are fewer displays of status.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
one small example:

This explains very clearly my IRCM's struggle with knowing which project in my work should be done first and when.

It explains my difficulty in distinguishing which project is most important and valued. Because internally my timing and recognition is different.
It is hard for me to understand which is more important and priority directed by society's norm.

If I have a project that will bring me good benefits...such as money or recoginition, it makes little difference to me........
If I have a project on the table that greatly holds my interest because it is more authentic to myself, that project is the one that I must make important even though I will make little or no money and recognition.

I am driven by my IRCM.

My "social reality" is completely different from the so called "norm".

The client in the large house wanting a $5,000 painting is no more important to me than someone in a small house who comes to my studio to buy the beautiful intricate ink drawing in progress for 350.00......she wants to hang it in her bedroom because she has fallen in love with it's essence.

It has been next to impossible for me to organize my thoughts on a straight track. It is a struggle fo me to get projects satisfactorily to my clients in a timely manner because of my definition of importance.

............unless there becomes a loud squealing wheel.

Then I know which one must be oiled. The one with the interior decorator who "screams the loudest". (sigh)

Thank you for such a thoughtful take on this situation. My relationship with my non-ADD wife is a huge factor in why I came to this messageboard. Although not every generalization fits us, (I know Chain explained that they were generalizations and wouldn't.) enough of this thread, original post and subsequent discussion, has hit home to be a great help to us.

So thank you all again.