View Full Version : RANT: My 16 year old daughter is getting on my last nerve!


amber3902
01-06-15, 10:33 AM
I two daughters, ages 16 and 9.

16 year old has auditory processing disorder and ADHD-PI. She has been taking Strattera since last March. she is 5'7" 123 pounds and takes 80 mg of Strattera.

9 year old has dyslexia and ADHD-PI.

I am a single mother, I work full time and have fibromyalgia. I'm divorced from their dad who sees them every Saturday. He is not a involved parent. I am the one who recognized the problems in my daughters. I am the one who had to meet with the school teachers, take them to doctors and get them diagnosed. I'm the one that arranges play dates, birthday parties, takes them to the library, plays and musicals. I'm the one that pays for extra curriculars, tutoring, piano lessons, etc. I'm not trying to be narcissistic, I'm just trying to show that I am doing ALL of the parenting with NO help.

My 16 year old has been taking Strattera since last March. At first she was on 60 mg, but that didn't seem to be helping. She was still doing stupid things. So I told the psychartist she needed more. He upped it to 80 mg. She still does stupid things!

Normally she uses her cell phone as an alarm clock, but as punishment I took it away. She was like How am I going to get up in the morning? I said use your alarm clock. She set the alarm, but it didn't go off in the morning. I said Are you sure you set the alarm time for AM and not PM? Yeah, mom. Okay, next morning, same thing again, alarm doesn't go off. I check the alarm clock, DD, your clock's time is set for PM when it should be AM! *blank stare from DD*

DD, your alarm time is set for AM, but it's not going to ring in the morning because your clock's TIME is set for PM! *more blank stare*

I go to pick her up from summer camp. I tell her I am coming early today to take her to a doctor's appointment. I text her and say I will be there in ten minutes. I walk into the YMCA and look around, no DD. I figure she must be in the bathroom, so I sit down by the front doors and wait. And wait. And wait. Finally, I call her on her phone. She's in the movie room, watching a movie. She said she was waiting for me to call her to tell her to come out! I'm like, I told you I was on my way! How am I supposed to know where you are?

Same thing when I pick her up from school. Sometimes instead of taking the bus home, she will stay late for a club so I will pick her up. Now, instead of her waiting outside where she can see me when I pull up, she's inside the school. The school has a driveway in front of it where parents drive through to pick up their kids. All the other students are outside, waiting for their parents to pick them up. Not DD, she's inside the school.

After I get off work, I have to pick up 9 year old from her school, drop her off at her tutoring, run to 16 year old's school to pick her up, and drive back to 9 year old's tutoring before her session is over. It is cutting it close. I tell DD, I have to be back before your sister's tutoring is over, you have to be outside the school so you can see me when I pull up so you don't make me late getting back to pick up your sister.

So the next time comes, I'm in my car in the driveway, waiting. I can only pull up but so far because other parents are in their cars in front of me. I text her, DD, I'm here. No response. Finally, I see her walking towards the car. I said, Why weren't you waiting outside like I told you? She says I was waiting outside, I was just over there sitting down with my friends so I didn't see you. DD, you need to be standing where you can see me when I pull up. I can't always pull up in the driveway that far because there are cars in front of me.

Next time, she's outside, but now she's standing behind a F%CKING column! I show her where she needs to stand so she can see me. Next time when I pull up, she is standing where she can see me, but SHE IS LOOKING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF WHERE CARS ARE COMING FROM! I say to myself, she's going to look this way and see me. Nope. I wait for her to look in my direction, the direction ALL CARS ARE COMING FROM BECAUSE THE DRIVEWAY IS A ONE WAY STREET. I honk my horn. Finally she looks my way. She says she didn't want to look my direction because she didn't want the girl standing next to her to think she was trying to look at her. :mad::mad::mad::mad: The girl standing "next" to her, was at least five feet away from her.

I said, so what she thinks you're looking at her? Take two F%cking steps forward so it doesn't look like you're looking at her and look for me!!

This past Saturday I changed the 16 yr old's medication from Strattera to Concerta. She's been taking it every morning. I read reviews where parents say their son started clearning the entire house and got everything done. DD's ONE chore she has to do every day is the dishes. She's been doing dishes since she was 12, and she has YET to do them correctly. She forgets to wipe the table off, or she forgets to put something away. Or she misses a pot on the stove. I've written a list for her, she doesn't follow the list. I do the dishes with her. Unless I'm there every freaking day, breathing down her neck, telling her everything single last thing to do, she screws it up!

She's 16 years old! Her 9 year old sister has ADHD and makes her bed up better than she does! Her 9 year old sister keeps her room neater than her!

I get up this morning, go down stairs, and see all the things she didn't put away last night when she did the dishes. The bread's out, she's left a dirty pitcher on the counter, and there were several cans of opened food left on the counters. She says she doesn't see them.

I told her to write a thank you note for some Christmas gifts she got from family. This morning I asked her for the thank you note so I could mail it. I checked what she wrote.

It was a very nice note, only problem was she was thanking the person for giving her a photo album. I said, DD, what are you talking about, what photo album?

*blank stare*

DD- the card says thank you for the photo album, there was no photo album.

She says, Yes there was. You know, with the pictures all of us in them.

*facepalm*

I said, first of all, that was not a photo album, that was a bunch of photo FRAMES with our pictures in them. A photo album is a book. And Sue and Pat did not give you that. They gave that to me. They gave you EAR BUDS.

She has been taking the Concerta (36 mg) for three days now. I thought it started working an hour later? :confused:

We were seeing a psychiatrist for the ADHD, but all he does is listen to me complain and perscribe medication.

You don't "grow out" of ADHD, so how is my daughter ever going to get and keep a job? If she can't SEE the things she's leaving on the counters, how is she is going to SEE when she didn't put fries in the happy meal?

She wants to be a doctor, how is she going to SEE white spots in a patient's throat? She's going to be fired from every job she gets. A boss is not going to "give only one step instructions" to her. He's going to show her one time and expect her to get it.

DD is going to be a senior next year. I know, you're supposed to take 30% off of a ADHD kid's age, so is DD supposed to stay in school for another four years? If she should be treated several years younger than her actual age, why is it her 9 year old sister can wipe the table off better than her? And her sister has ADHD-PI too!

I am tired of dealing with her. I am tired of trying to "patient" and "understanding". I'm tired of trying to remember that she can be so smart in school, but so stupid at home! She has a 3.7 GPA right now. She can calculate math problems in her head that I would need a calculator for.
One time she asked me, "Mom, how could Mary be a virgin when Jesus had brothers and sisters?"

If she was stupid all the time I could remember to treat her that way, and only expect so much of her, but it's the stupid-smart-responsible-irresponsible stuff that throws me! She NEVER needs to be told to do her homework, but she needs to be told EVERY DAY to do the dishes!

-She can organize a school project, and get it done ahead of time, but she can't organize her bedroom so she doesn't lose things.
-She can discuss current events and politics, she knows the key differences between a liberal and a conservative, but can't comprehend how to set her alarm clock so it will ring in the morning and not in the evening!
-She can look online at a detailed drawing of Spiderman and draw it exactly the same, but she can't look at the stove and see a dirty pot that needs to be cleaned.

I've given her tips, stragies, advice on how to do things so she won't forget. She doesn't do any of them! I've yelled, I've talked, I've taken devices away, punish, ground. Nothing seems to make any impression in that head of hers.

I just want her to f-cking DO THE DISHES CORRECTLY for ONCE in her life!! I just want to wake up in the morning, go in the kitchen and not find something she didn't put away.

Lunacie
01-06-15, 11:13 AM
Your daughter is NOT "stupid." :doh:


If she were here I'd recommend that she read a book called,
"You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy."
It's by Peggy Ramundo and Kate Kelly.
I checked it out at the local library.

It might be a good idea for you to read it too.

My parents didn't blame me for being near-sighted,
but they did blame me for being "stupid."
I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was 58
and my grandkids were being diagnosed.

I always knew there was something different,
I just didn't know what it was.
And I didn't think it was my fault,
but everyone else thought it was my fault
and made me think I was stupid. :(

amber3902
01-06-15, 11:33 AM
Your daughter is NOT "stupid." :doh:


Well of course she's not stupid. I KNOW she's not stupid. If she was stupid, I wouldn't expect anything from her.


-She can organize a school project, but she can't organize her bedroom so she doesn't lose things.
-She can understand complex algebra problems, but can't comprehend how to set her alarm clock so it will ring in the morning and not in the evening
-She can copy a drawing she sees almost perfectly, but she can't SEE dishes that need to be cleaned.


I've NEVER told her she was stupid. I am venting on here. I've been "patient" and "understanding" and "forgiving" for 16 years now and I feel like I'm going to burst!

Are parents just supposed to do everything for their ADHD child? Are parents supposed to expect that their 18 year old is going to take another 3-4 years to become an independent adult?

Fuzzy12
01-06-15, 11:37 AM
Are parents supposed to expect that their 18 year old is going to take another 3-4 years to become an independent adult?

Probably, yes. :)

BellaVita
01-06-15, 12:12 PM
Your daughter sounds like an amazing smart young girl.

1) NEVER compare siblings. It's wrong, abusive, and unhelpful for your situation.

2) One person's disorder isn't the same as the next person's. Her ADHD may be more severe than her sister's, there's nothing wrong with that. She needs more compassion and loving support.

3) Is there any way she could stay with her father? Maybe he would be able to help her out in ways you can't.

4) Do not EVER tell your daughter she's stupid. Children her age are very sensitive to what their parents think of them, and if you call her stupid she will take that with her for the rest of her life. She's NOT stupid, she has a real medical condition that isn't her fault. And honestly, the things you described about her aren't "stupid" at all and not worth complaining so much over.

5) You are being too picky. She is trying to do the dishes, but not doing it "perfect enough." She writes a thank you, but not in the way you wanted. She does her homework, but that's not enough. She is doing an incredible job, you MUST build her up and give her some credit.

Please, have compassion on your daughter.

Maybe it would be beneficial for you to see a psychiatrist, you seem to be in a difficult situation that you do not have the emotional capacity to handle.

I was in a similar situation as your daughter, getting hurt by my parent's words daily and compared to my brother. Of course I made great grades, but that didn't matter. They harmed me so much, that now I'm living on the OPPOSITE side of the country and have cut them out of my life.

Do you want that to happen?

If not, then please rethink what you're doing and realize how very damaging it is to your poor daughter's self-esteem and self-worth.

Fuzzy12
01-06-15, 12:13 PM
My 16 year old has been taking Strattera since last March. At first she was on 60 mg, but that didn't seem to be helping. She was still doing stupid things. So I told the psychartist she needed more. He upped it to 80 mg. She still does stupid things!

The 'stupid' things you mentioned, well, I still do stuff like that. I'm 36 and on medication.

Normally she uses her cell phone as an alarm clock, but as punishment I took it away. She was like How am I going to get up in the morning? I said use your alarm clock. She set the alarm, but it didn't go off in the morning. I said Are you sure you set the alarm time for AM and not PM? Yeah, mom. Okay, next morning, same thing again, alarm doesn't go off. I check the alarm clock, DD, your clock's time is set for PM when it should be AM! *blank stare from DD*

DD, your alarm time is set for AM, but it's not going to ring in the morning because your clock's TIME is set for PM! *more blank stare*

If her cell phone so far has been the one and only tool that she uses to wake up then taking it away is not a good idea. I don't develop strategies or tools easily but once something has become a habit I start relying on it exclusively and am pretty useless without it. I know that using an alarm clock sounds pretty simple but for me no change, irrespective of how small it may be, is simple. Maybe she forgot to change the time from am to pm and then forgot that she didn't do it (I often think I've done something when I didn't, especially when they seem to be obvious). Maybe she didn't set it correctly.

I'm also very familiar with the blank stare. It drives my husband crazy. Essentially repeating the same thing to me twice when I didn't get it the first time rarely gets a different response (in this case -> the blank stare). Also, when I know I've messed up and someone isn't pleased with me I get stressed and that makes understanding anything really difficult. I can imagine that in this case your daughter might have still been thinking about why the clock wasn't set to am when you said "DD, your clock's time is set for PM when it should be AM". It's very possible that she missed what you said, hence the blank stare (while probably anxiously trying to figure out what you just said). Then you said the same thing again, while she was wondering about what you'd just said so she missed what you said again -> second blank stare.

This is just conjecture. It's what could have happened to me. There are so many reasons why she reacted the way she did but none of them are really her fault.

I go to pick her up from summer camp. I tell her I am coming early today to take her to a doctor's appointment. I text her and say I will be there in ten minutes. I walk into the YMCA and look around, no DD. I figure she must be in the bathroom, so I sit down by the front doors and wait. And wait. And wait. Finally, I call her on her phone. She's in the movie room, watching a movie. She said she was waiting for me to call her to tell her to come out! I'm like, I told you I was on my way! How am I supposed to know where you are?

Again, happens to me all the time. I'm not even sure who's wrong here. It's just different expectations and assumptions. She assumed you'd call and you assumed that she'd be waiting outside. Maybe next time could you just call her immediately rather than waiting for her?

Same thing when I pick her up from school. Sometimes instead of taking the bus home, she will stay late for a club so I will pick her up. Now, instead of her waiting outside where she can see me when I pull up, she's inside the school. The school has a driveway in front of it where parents drive through to pick up their kids. All the other students are outside, waiting for their parents to pick them up. Not DD, she's inside the school.

So the next time comes, I'm in my car in the driveway, waiting. I can only pull up but so far because other parents are in their cars in front of me. I text her, DD, I'm here. No response. Finally, I see her walking towards the car. I said, Why weren't you waiting outside like I told you? She says I was waiting outside, I was just over there sitting down with my friends so I didn't see you. DD, you need to be standing where you can see me when I pull up. I can't always pull up in the driveway that far because there are cars in front of me.

Waiting is incredibly boring. If you've got ADHD, it's painfully boring. When I'm waiting my mind tries so desperately to find a distraction to entertain me that often I don't even notice that I am being distracted. Or, I think, I'll just sit with my friends for a minute and then wander to where I'm supposed to be waiting and then I lose track of time.

Next time, she's outside, but now she's standing behind a F%CKING column! I show her where she needs to stand so she can see me. Next time when I pull up, she is standing where she can see me, but SHE IS LOOKING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF WHERE CARS ARE COMING FROM! I say to myself, she's going to look this way and see me. Nope. I wait for her to look in my direction, the direction ALL CARS ARE COMING FROM BECAUSE THE DRIVEWAY IS A ONE WAY STREET. I honk my horn. Finally she looks my way. She says she didn't want to look my direction because she didn't want the girl standing next to her to think she was trying to look at her. :mad::mad::mad::mad: The girl standing "next" to her, was at least five feet away from her.

I said, so what she thinks you're looking at her? Take two F%cking steps forward so it doesn't look like you're looking at her and look for me!!

Um..I hope that's not how you actually talk to her. If anyone talked to me like that, I'd probably come up with a silly reason as well just to defend my actions.

She's 16 years old! Her 9 year old sister has ADHD and makes her bed up better than she does! Her 9 year old sister keeps her room neater than her!

Well, she's not her sister. Age and having an ADHD diagnosis don't exclusively determine how good you are at a particular task.

I get up this morning, go down stairs, and see all the things she didn't put away last night when she did the dishes. The bread's out, she's left a dirty pitcher on the counter, and there were several cans of opened food left on the counters. She says she doesn't see them.

I told her to write a thank you note for some Christmas gifts she got from family. This morning I asked her for the thank you note so I could mail it. I checked what she wrote.

It was a very nice note, only problem was she was thanking the person for giving her a photo album. I said, DD, what are you talking about, what photo album?

*blank stare*

DD- the card says thank you for the photo album, there was no photo album.

She says, Yes there was. You know, with the pictures all of us in them.

*facepalm*

I said, first of all, that was not a photo album, that was a bunch of photo FRAMES with our pictures in them. A photo album is a book. And Sue and Pat did not give you that. They gave that to me. They gave you EAR BUDS.

All stuff that I do as well, especially confusing memories or remembering things that might not make sense. Ear buds? Do you mean the little sticks with cotton attached to both ends to clear your ears? No offense but if anyone gave me ear buds I'd probably try to block out that memory as well...:lol:

She has been taking the Concerta (36 mg) for three days now. I thought it started working an hour later? :confused:

It might be. Just because it isn't working on a few particular tasks that are important to you it doesn't mean that it's not working. What does she say? How does she feel she is performing on all tasks?

We were seeing a psychiatrist for the ADHD, but all he does is listen to me complain and perscribe medication.

What would you like him to do? If there's anything specific, have you tried asking him about it?

You don't "grow out" of ADHD, so how is my daughter ever going to get and keep a job? If she can't SEE the things she's leaving on the counters, how is she is going to SEE when she didn't put fries in the happy meal?

"She has a 3.7 GPA right now. She can calculate math problems in her head that I would need a calculator for. She NEVER needs to be told to do her homework. She can organize a school project, and get it done ahead of time. She can discuss current events and politics, she knows the key differences between a liberal and a conservative. She can look online at a detailed drawing of Spiderman and draw it exactly the same".

^^ That's how she'll get and hopefully keep a job. She's obviously a bright and talented girl. She needs to find a job that will utilise her strengths. It's not that easy of course but there's definitely hope.

It sounds to me as if she can do things very well if she's interested and motivated (as most ADHDers). Maybe doing the dishes doesn't get her heart fluttering but if she can find a job that really interests her in the right kind of environment, etc. there's every possibility that she'll do well.


DD is going to be a senior next year. I know, you're supposed to take 30% off of a ADHD kid's age, so is DD supposed to stay in school for another four years? If she should be treated several years younger than her actual age, why is it her 9 year old sister can wipe the table off better than her? And her sister has ADHD-PI too!

Again, so what? They are two different people with different skills and interests. My little niece who is 30 years younger than me and I suspect has ADHD as well is a lot better than me at a lot of things.

I am tired of dealing with her. I am tired of trying to "patient" and "understanding". I'm tired of trying to remember that she can be so smart in school, but so stupid at home! She has a 3.7 GPA right now. She can calculate math problems in her head that I would need a calculator for.
One time she asked me, "Mom, how could Mary be a virgin when Jesus had brothers and sisters?"

Um...as an aside..was Jesus supposed to have brothers and sisters? :eek: Older or younger??:eek: Anyway, I don't think that's a stupid question at all....

If she was stupid all the time I could remember to treat her that way, and only expect so much of her, but it's the stupid-smart-responsible-irresponsible stuff that throws me! She NEVER needs to be told to do her homework, but she needs to be told EVERY DAY to do the dishes!

She isn't stupid. She's got ADHD. That's all you need to remember.


I've given her tips, stragies, advice on how to do things so she won't forget. She doesn't do any of them! I've yelled, I've talked, I've taken devices away, punish, ground. Nothing seems to make any impression in that head of hers.

Keep trying. I can imagine that it must be frustrating, but it can take forever to find something that works but it's worth to keep looking.

I just want her to f-cking DO THE DISHES CORRECTLY for ONCE in her life!! I just want to wake up in the morning, go in the kitchen and not find something she didn't put away.

It seems to me that she's skilled at quite a few things. Unfortunately, doing the dishes isn't one of them. It's even more unfortunate if that's the only thing you care about. Giving her tasks that utilise her strengths might be more satisfactory for both of you.

Fuzzy12
01-06-15, 12:27 PM
I know you are just venting and so I really, really hope that you'd never talk to your daughter this way. I can imagine that it must be frustrating to live with someone who has ADHD and if venting helps then vent all you need.

The problem is that you are expecting the wrong things from her. Since she is smart you expect her to do well the things that are easy for you or for most people without ADHD.


-She can organize a school project, but she can't organize her bedroom so she doesn't lose things.
These two tasks are similar only on the surface
-She can understand complex algebra problems, but can't comprehend how to set her alarm clock so it will ring in the morning and not in the evening
-She can copy a drawing she sees almost perfectly, but she can't SEE dishes that need to be cleaned.

All these tasks are similar only in a very superficial way. There are vital differences and it's these differences that decide how well your daughter does on these tasks. The differences probably differ from person to person and I'm not sure what makes your daughter tick but very roughly it seems to me that she enjoys interesting and intellectually challenging tasks.

I've NEVER told her she was stupid. I am venting on here. I've been "patient" and "understanding" and "forgiving" for 16 years now and I feel like I'm going to burst!

I'd recommend trying to inform and educate yourself about ADHD as much as you can. It wouldn't just help your daughter but probably also you. You might find it easier to be patient, understanding and forgiving once you understand better where she's coming from.

Good luck!! :)

amber3902
01-06-15, 12:32 PM
Um..I hope that's not how you actually talk to her. If anyone talked to me like that, I'd probably come up with a silly reason as well just to defend my actions.
No, of course I didn't talk like that to her. I'm venting on here.


All stuff that I do as well, especially confusing memories or remembering things that might not make sense. Ear buds? Do you mean the little sticks with cotton attached to both ends to clear your ears? No offense but if anyone gave me ear buds I'd probably try to block out that memory as well...:lol:


Ear buds are the things you use to listen to ipods with.
The ear buds were addressed to her. She opened that present. The photo frames were addressed to me. I opened them.

Why would she think a gift addressed to me and opened by me was for her?


What would you like him to do? If there's anything specific, have you tried asking him about it?

I'd like him to give us strategies on how to remember things, routines, advice.

For example, I tell her to keep pads, tampons, Tylenol, etc. in a purse and to carry that purse with her everywhere. That way she doesn't have to remember tampons, Tylenol, wallet, all she has to remember is to grab her purse as she's walking out the door. Does she do it? Nope. Then she gets her period and doesn't have any tampons with her.


"She has a 3.7 GPA right now. She can calculate math problems in her head that I would need a calculator for. She NEVER needs to be told to do her homework. She can organize a school project, and get it done ahead of time. She can discuss current events and politics, she knows the key differences between a liberal and a conservative. She can look online at a detailed drawing of Spiderman and draw it exactly the same".

^^ That's how she'll get and hopefully keep a job. She's obviously a bright and talented girl. She needs to find a job that will utilise her strengths. It's not that easy of course but there's definitely hope.

It sounds to me as if she can do things very well if she's interested and motivated (as most ADHDers). Maybe doing the dishes doesn't get her heart fluttering but if she can find a job that really interests her in the right kind of environment, etc. there's every possibility that she'll do well.


Thing is, she wants to be a doctor, not a graphic artist. She's good at chemistry and science, I keep telling her to she should be a researcher. Maybe there's hope for her yet.


Um...as an aside..was Jesus supposed to have brothers and sisters? :eek: Older or younger??:eek: Anyway, I don't think that's a stupid question at all....

No, it's not a stupid question. I was giving that as an example to show how smart she can be. Jesus did have brothers and sisters.

amber3902
01-06-15, 12:42 PM
3) Is there any way she could stay with her father? Maybe he would be able to help her out in ways you can't.


I seriously thought about doing that, but her father would screw her up worse than me. Like I said, I was the one that saw she was having problems and got her both of her diagnosis. He is one of those "if I pretend nothings wrong, nothing's wrong" type of people.

He certainly wouldn't get her medication, or therapy or any kind of help if she needed it.


4) Do not EVER tell your daughter she's stupid. Children her age are very sensitive to what their parents think of them, and if you call her stupid she will take that with her for the rest of her life. She's NOT stupid, she has a real medical condition that isn't her fault. And honestly, the things you described about her aren't "stupid" at all and not worth complaining so much over.
I have never called her stupid. I am on here venting.


Please, have compassion on your daughter.

Maybe it would be beneficial for you to see a psychiatrist, you seem to be in a difficult situation that you do not have the emotional capacity to handle.
I probably don't have the emotional capacity to handle this anymore.
I have called to get an appointment with a psychiatrist. I am trying to have compassion for my daughter, but I've reached my limit. Even when I was married to my daughter's father, I was basically a single parent. I've been a single parent for 16 years now and I am ready to give up.

I was in a similar situation as your daughter, getting hurt by my parent's words daily and compared to my brother. Of course I made great grades, but that didn't matter. They harmed me so much, that now I'm living on the OPPOSITE side of the country and have cut them out of my life.

Do you want that to happen?

If not, then please rethink what you're doing and realize how very damaging it is to your poor daughter's self-esteem and self-worth.I should have posted at the top of my post that I was venting, but for some reason I can't go back and edit the post. I am on here venting. I have never called my daughter stupid or anything like that.

I try to focus on her positives, praise her. I post scans of her drawings on Facebook. But this past weekend we got into a big fight and it's hard right now to focus on the positives.

BellaVita
01-06-15, 12:59 PM
I seriously thought about doing that, but her father would screw her up worse than me. Like I said, I was the one that saw she was having problems and got her both of her diagnosis. He is one of those "if I pretend nothings wrong, nothing's wrong" type of people.

He certainly wouldn't get her medication, or therapy or any kind of help if she needed it.

Could you bring him some scientific literature? Or perhaps a note from her psychiatrist confirming that she does indeed have ADHD?

Maybe at least she could stay with him for a while, and give you a break.

I have never called her stupid. I am on here venting.

That's good to hear.

I probably don't have the emotional capacity to handle this anymore.
I have called to get an appointment with a psychiatrist.

That's good. Please take care of yourself in every way possible, the better care for yourself the better you will be able to care for your daughter.

Practicing self-love could help too. I recommend the book "The Mindful Path to Self-Compassion."

Loving yourself will help you better love others.

I am trying to have compassion for my daughter, but I've reached my limit. Even when I was married to my daughter's father, I was basically a single parent. I've been a single parent for 16 years now and I am ready to give up.

I can see that you've reached your limit. If you're close to giving up, please get your daughter another place to stay for now while you get yourself together and get some help.

Boarding school was a huge blessing for me because it got me away from my frazzled parents, and gave me an opportunity to discover myself and learn to be independent. Maybe it's worth looking into?

Is there any other family or even friends she could stay with temporarily?

I should have posted at the top of my post that I was venting, but for some reason I can't go back and edit the post. I am on here venting. I have never called my daughter stupid or anything like that.

I try to focus on her positives, praise her. I post scans of her drawings on Facebook. But this past weekend we got into a big fight and it's hard right now to focus on the positives.

Good, continue to make sure she SEES those Facebook posts, and that you praise her verbally every day.

My mom would praise me, but she would far more often scold me. I think there needs to be a healthy balance, with keeping praise to about 90% of the feedback she gets from you. I'm serious. It may seem like a ridiculously high number, but it's really what's necessary for your daughter to receive FAR more praise than criticism. It weighs on a young person much more than you'd think, ESPECIALLY at that age.

If my parents would've have praised me even 50-60% of the time, I would have been in a much better place mentally and developed into a much healthier adult.

Be sure to tell your daughter EVERY day that you're very proud of her.

Build her up as much as you can, especially work on your relationship with her and perhaps ask her what SHE thinks you think of her - that way you can gain a better perspective on where you two are at and how to approach the situation.

Fuzzy12
01-06-15, 01:02 PM
Ear buds are the things you use to listen to ipods with.
The ear buds were addressed to her. She opened that present. The photo frames were addressed to me. I opened them.

Why would she think a gift addressed to me and opened by me was for her?

Oops, apologies. I didn't know that.

It's possible that she got confused in that moment. As I said, sometimes especially when under pressure (or faced with an extremely boring task), we blurt out stuff that doesn't make much sense. A lot of ADHDers have to deal with an onslaught of unstructured, random thoughts and ideas pretty much for most of the time so it's easy to get confused or to mix up memories.

I'd like him to give us strategies on how to remember things, routines, advice.

You could tell him that but as far as I know, that's not really what psychiatrists do. You could try to find a behavioural ADHD coach or CBT (cognitive behaviour therapy) sessions that are geared towards ADHD.

For example, I tell her to keep pads, tampons, Tylenol, etc. in a purse and to carry that purse with her everywhere. That way she doesn't have to remember tampons, Tylenol, wallet, all she has to remember is to grab her purse as she's walking out the door. Does she do it? Nope. Then she gets her period and doesn't have any tampons with her.

Sigh, I've finally learnt to do that. Now I carry all of that stuff and a lot more in my handbag every day, just in case. My handbag weighs a ton and gives me a backache but it is a good way to make sure that you have everything when you need it.

It takes time though to form a useful habit and though I know that there are tons of useful strategies that would definitely help me, I either forget or procrastinate implementing them or I just don't do them consistently enough to get any benefit.

Thing is, she wants to be a doctor, not a graphic artist. She's good at chemistry and science, I keep telling her to she should be a researcher. Maybe there's hope for her yet.

There is definitely hope for her and if she's good at chemistry and science, she might make a good doctor. When you listed her skills I actually thought "researcher" as well, but it really depends on what she wants to do. I think, the most important thing for us is motivation and interest. They are also two things that we struggle to generate and I also think that for us to be good at something consistently we need much, much higher levels of motivation and interest than other people.

Lunacie
01-06-15, 01:04 PM
Well of course she's not stupid. I KNOW she's not stupid. If she was stupid, I wouldn't expect anything from her.


-She can organize a school project, but she can't organize her bedroom so she doesn't lose things.
-She can understand complex algebra problems, but can't comprehend how to set her alarm clock so it will ring in the morning and not in the evening
-She can copy a drawing she sees almost perfectly, but she can't SEE dishes that need to be cleaned.


I've NEVER told her she was stupid. I am venting on here. I've been "patient" and "understanding" and "forgiving" for 16 years now and I feel like I'm going to burst!

Are parents just supposed to do everything for their ADHD child? Are parents supposed to expect that their 18 year old is going to take another 3-4 years to become an independent adult?

Even though you're not using those words, she is picking up on the attitude.

My parents and teachers and hubby didn't use the word "stupid"
but I picked up on the attitude.

Of course I was smart, I have an IQ of over 130,
so why couldn't I apply those smarts to everything across the board equally?
They all thought I should be able to do that.

I have a mental disorder, I was born with it, I'll die with it.
I know a lot and I know what to do,
sometimes I can access that knowledge,
but sometimes my brain just can't "find the file."


I know it's frustrating.
I live with my grown daughter and her two children.
The oldest has ADHD and is 16.

Just now I had to pick up her stuff in the bathroom
before I could USE the bathroom.
And that's after I spent half an hour earlier today
cleaning up the mess from her coloring her hair last night.

When she's home I just hand her the sponge
and she's smart enough to know I want her to clean up after herself.
But if she's not home I usually don't want to wait
because the mess bothers ME.

It doesn't bother her - and I can't change that.
Being patient and understanding and forgiving isn't going to change her.
I have to accept that this is who she is and what she's like.

She wants to go to college and become a music therapist.
I think that's awesome but I worry about how difficult it will be for her.


If you think she's not doing the dishes "the right way",
then do the dishes yourself and have her do something else
that you don't care about as much.

I couldn't do anything "right" when I was a teen either.
My mom just did it all herself.
I didn't learn how to cook or clean until I left home.
I have never been able to cook or clean as well as my mom.

But somehow I managed to cook and clean and care for my hubby
and our daughter. And I'm still doing that as a gramma.
It may not be good enough to satisfy my mom,
but it hasn't killed any of us.

And my family knows that I love them,
whether they do things the right way or not.

In the parenting section there is a sticky thread with great info on kids with ADHD - and many of us don't outgrow it -
it's called Dizfriz's Corner.
He talks about how positive feedback works much better
than negative feedback for our ADHD kiddos.

TygerSan
01-06-15, 01:20 PM
It's really hard to parent someone whose brain isn't standard issue.

It's also really hard to live in a world that gets confused by people whose brains aren't standard issue. I know because I live it every day.

I'm quirky. There are things I can do well. School, all the way up through college was one of them. The structure, the learning, the feedback (in the form of grades and interaction with teachers and professors), that was my thing.

Organizing my room or my papers? Not my thing at all.

How come you can do X but you can't do Y? That question, either voiced out loud, or implied, is a question that I come across a *lot* in my life. And, honestly, if I knew the answer to that question, I would be striking up the band. You think I *want* to screw up? Heck no. You think I want to make the same mistake over and over again? Again, heck no. It is horrendously demoralizing to get called out over and over again for the same "mistake".

On the other hand, I also know as I grow older, that I see things in other people close to me that infuriates me the way my faults must infuriate others. It is important to talk and figure out how to deal with quirks and faults in a way that's constructive rather than destructive. It will take a while and may need to involve a neutral third-party, but it's important to break the vicious cycle.

As for the dishes: Are they clean enough? If not, then maybe she could vacuum instead? Or perhaps a laminated checklist so that she can follow the steps visually so she gets the tasks done in the correct order? There are work-arounds. Clearly your expectations and her abilities aren't quite aligned yet.

Finally, I *know* it can be mind-blowing to come across certain skills that you consider incredibly easy that your daughter simply can't seem to master. If they come easy to you, if you don't even remember learning them, then it's especially hard to wrap your head around the fact that your daughter doesn't have the skill in question. It's equally hard to teach a skill you might not even remember learning.

I leave you with this video, which I found pretty good example of how the struggle with uneven skills appears to the person who's struggling. It's long, but I hope it might shed some insight on the issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WK144ZdxFU

Lunacie
01-06-15, 01:27 PM
Forgot to add (yeah, I forget ... I do have ADHD),
the edit function is only available for 15 minutes after posting.

After that, you have to ask the mods or admins to change something.

I've sent a note to them asking them to add "Rant" to your thread title.

Stevuke79
01-06-15, 01:43 PM
I feel for you. I can relate to you. I am raising a child, albeit 7 years old, with similar tendencies. (Obviously with 9 years less maturity than your daughter.)

The truth is YOU ARE RIGHT. At least as far as I can tell you are right. I don't understand why your daughter can't tell when the table is clean or where she needs to be for pickup so you can see her or why she thought your gift was for her. I don't even understand why I made the same mistakes at her age and even now as an adult. These things are simple and obvious yet they still trip me up. I can't explain why. (I sort of can, but not on one foot.)

I can relate to your daughter too. I can actually relate to everything you said about her. Every single mistake she has made, I have made and I can see myself making. As an adult of 35 years old, I still make them. And I can relate to being highly intelligent, and still making very foolish mistakes and seeming uncaring or inconsiderate, or seeming like I'm not making an effort.

She wants to be a doctor, how is she going to SEE white spots in a patient's throat? She's going to be fired from every job she gets. A boss is not going to "give only one step instructions" to her. He's going to show her one time and expect her to get it.

With time and age she'll learn to cope. She can do this as long as she can become an adult with some small bit of her ego intact and overcome every time someone called her stupid and every time that she felt that someone was right about her.

As for your question: how is she going to SEE white spots in a patient's throat?

Please don't ask her that question. The answer is that she'll figure it out when the time comes. Don't ask her that.


It sounds like she's very smart and very talented and will grow into a fantastic person.

I know you're a single mother and that is a very challenging thing. My mom was a single mom and just like you she dealt with all of that frustration in addition to the frustration of an impossibly stupid yet brilliant child. I drove her nuts and in turn she would mock me, call me stupid, lazy, arrogant, thoughtless, insensitive, and ask me, "Why did you do that?" when clearly there is no answer because it was something I shouldn't have done. Her judgement was ever present. She was right about everything. Every time she called me stupid or thoughtless she was right. And every time she asked me, "Why did you do that?" It was a fair question.

I'm going to humbly suggest something that I know is a lot and that most people couldn't manage. But you're a single mom which means the impossible is a basic part of your daily routine and you know how to do things that are beyond most people. If you can somehow manage it, it would be much better for your daughter if you could do NONE the above. I don't know how one can possibly manage to not do those things with such a child. Nonetheless, please try not to. It doesn't help.

Or if you do, when you calm down, please tell her you shouldn't have.

amber3902
01-06-15, 02:00 PM
Please take care of yourself in every way possible, the better care for yourself the better you will be able to care for your daughter.

Practicing self-love could help too. I recommend the book "The Mindful Path to Self-Compassion."

Loving yourself will help you better love others.

Thank you. I used to go to a meditation group, which helped me deal with stress, but the group disbanded.


I can see that you've reached your limit. If you're close to giving up, please get your daughter another place to stay for now while you get yourself together and get some help.

Boarding school was a huge blessing for me because it got me away from my frazzled parents, and gave me an opportunity to discover myself and learn to be independent. Maybe it's worth looking into?

Is there any other family or even friends she could stay with temporarily?

I would send her to live with my dad, but he's in another state. DD is a junior in school and I am loathe to make her start over again in a new school when she basically has one year left of school to make friends.

Even if I sent her to stay with her dad, getting her to school would be a nightmare. He lives about an hour away and works nights.

I don't know if I could afford boarding school. My 9 year old is getting tutoring for dyslexia, and it costs $500 a month, so I can't afford anything else right now. Do you know if it cost your parents a lot?

I really thought I would be a good mom, but now I wonder if I should have ever had children in the first place. I thought I would be a better mom than my mom was, that I would show her! I guess I am being too picky. I am just worried that DD will be a failure, and if she's a failure, that means I've failed her as a parent because I didn't do everything I was supposed to do to ensure she could function on her own.

I get sick a lot and I worry how she will take care of herself if I'm incapacitated or *god forbid* not here anymore?

Fuzzy12
01-06-15, 02:10 PM
I really thought I would be a good mom, but now I wonder if I should have ever had children in the first place. I thought I would be a better mom than my mom was, that I would show her! I guess I am being too picky. I am just worried that DD will be a failure, and if she's a failure, that means I've failed her as a parent because I didn't do everything I was supposed to do to ensure she could function on her own.

I get sick a lot and I worry how she will take care of herself if I'm incapacitated or *god forbid* not here anymore?

You don't sound like a bad mom. You just sound worried, stressed, frustrated and very tired.

Your dd won't be a failure. No one is a failure through and through. We all fail at some or the other task every once in a while and if you have ADHD you might struggle a bit more than others but that doesn't make anyone a failure. Besides, she' sounds quite accomplished already. She might not be perfect at everything she does but who is?? She might even struggle more than others but hopefully with treatment, experience and lots of support things will get easier.

Also, as a parent I guess, you can do a lot to ensure the well being of your kids but you can't take responsibility for everything. I guess, all you can really do is give it your best (and learn as much as you can about ADHD and her specific skills/weaknesses/traits, in particular, so that you can optimise your effort), give her lots of love and support and never give up on her. Having ADHD can be quite difficult at times, both for that person and the people around that person, but that isn't anyone's fault.

:grouphug:

Stevuke79
01-06-15, 02:42 PM
You don't sound like a bad mom. You sound like a very good mom who is dealing with the reality of parenthood - and it's a harsher reality for you than it is for most.

For me the hardest part of being a parent, and it sounds like this is part of what you're dealing with, is abandoning the idea that I can be a perfect parent and that my reward is a child at who's brilliance, precociousness and good manners all other parents would marvel. And then once they've finished marveling, at least for the moment, because with such a child you're never really done marveling, they would then be left to speculate at how incredibly brilliant and wonderful a parent must be in order to have such a child, who begs the unanswerable question: "How does Stevuke79 do it?!"

And some people DO get to live out that fantasy, but not most of us.

I enjoy such moments every once in a rare while, and I'm sure you do too. But like most parents, how my child reflects on me is less something that I enjoy and more something I have to "get over". And it's NOT easy - I really do empathize.

amber3902
01-06-15, 03:02 PM
I know you're a single mother and that is a very challenging thing. My mom was a single mom and just like you she dealt with all of that frustration in addition to the frustration of an impossibly stupid yet brilliant child. I drove her nuts and in turn she would mock me, call me stupid, lazy, arrogant, thoughtless, insensitive, and ask me, "Why did you do that?" when clearly there is no answer because it was something I shouldn't have done. Her judgement was ever present. She was right about everything. Every time she called me stupid or thoughtless she was right. And every time she asked me, "Why did you do that?" It was a fair question.

I'm going to humbly suggest something that I know is a lot and that most people couldn't manage. But you're a single mom which means the impossible is a basic part of your daily routine and you know how to do things that are beyond most people. If you can somehow manage it, it would be much better for your daughter if you could do NONE the above. I don't know how one can possibly manage to not do those things with such a child. Nonetheless, please try not to. It doesn't help.

Or if you do, when you calm down, please tell her you shouldn't have.

Thanks for understanding.

I have been biting my tongue around her for the longest. Sometimes I might say to her "why did you do that?" but that's it, and when I ask her that it's a "Why did you do that? Did you get confused? Did you think I meant such and such?" I am trying to figure out so I can help her, not ridicule her. Sunday was the first time I finally burst out and said "You're not doing anything I'm asking you to do. You are really getting on my nerves!" Ugh.

You know what my mom did when I forgot to do something?
She beat me.

I remember one time she was beating me because I had forgotten to brush my teeth, I was screaming so loud, my dad who was sleeping, woke up, grabbed my mom and threw her onto the bed to stop her from hitting me.

One time I couldn't find a hair brush. She grabbed it off the table and hit me in the head with it.

I am trying to be patient, and most of the time I am. But I am afraid I've inherited my mom's lack of patience. I never yell or punish her when she forgets things or gets confused because of her APD. But she doesn't use any of the techniques I've told her to use.

Because of my mom, I had to come up with strategies so I wouldn't forget things, so I wouldn't lose things, etc. (I suspect I have ADHD and am going to get tested soon.) But DD doesn't use any of the suggestions I give her. Reason I am so anal about putting everything where it belongs is so I can find it later. I tell her to do the same thing, she doesn't do it. Then she can't find something.

I told her to keep her driver's permit in her wallet at all times. She didn't do that, she lost it, then guess who had to take off work to take her to get another one?

Maybe I'm making mountain out of molehills, but I'm only trying to make life easier for her and me!

Stevuke79
01-06-15, 03:13 PM
.."You're not doing anything I'm asking you to do. You are really getting on my nerves!" Ugh.

We all do that. But we don't all realize that it's wrong,.. so really good for you. She's a lucky kid.

You know what my mom did when I forgot to do something?
She beat me.

That's why we say that every generation does a little better. ;)
My parents got beat.
I got smacked around.
And so far DD has just gotten yelled at. (poor kid!! :()

Baby steps.. hopefully our grandchildren will have it perfect. :)
I remember one time she was beating me because I had forgotten to brush my teeth, I was screaming so loud, my dad who was sleeping, woke up, grabbed my mom and threw her onto the bed to stop her from hitting me.

One time I couldn't find a hair brush. She grabbed it off the table and hit me in the head with it.

One thing that I only realized as a parent (maybe you already figured this out),.. people don't yell or hit to discipline their child. They do it to manage their own frustration. They do it because they are angry - parenting while angry is REALLY hard. Maybe you already knew that.. i just wanted to share that little revelation I had.

Because of my mom, I had to come up with strategies so I wouldn't forget things, so I wouldn't lose things, etc. (I suspect I have ADHD and am going to get tested soon.) But DD doesn't use any of the suggestions I give her. Reason I am so anal about putting everything where it belongs is so I can find it later. I tell her to do the same thing, she doesn't do it. Then she can't find something.

It sounds like you're doing a great job.

People with ADHD have to learn loads of strategies,.. but when you do it to avoid punishment it becomes like OCD. Like a tick. It's actually not totally healthy.

The best way to learn is when you need something and you work it out. One day she'll want a clean dish,.. and she'll clean it. ORRR, if she's happy eating from a not so clean dish,.. is that so bad? One day she'll want a clean dish and she'll figure it out. One day she'll have a boyfriend and she'll brush her teeth.

I told her to keep her driver's permit in her wallet at all times. She didn't do that, she lost it, then guess who had to take off work to take her to get another one?

I hear you. I really do. (I think it wouldn't be crazy if you made her take the bus or something to get it herself... or to get to school so you could take her on the weekend or after work or something. It's ok to let that stuff "hurt".
AND it might help you manage your own frustration.
Just a thought.)

Maybe I'm making mountain out of molehills, but I'm only trying to make life easier for her and me!

Those are legitimate mountains without any making on your part. :)
you make perfect sense.

amber3902
01-06-15, 06:40 PM
W
My parents got beat.
I got smacked around.
And so far DD has just gotten yelled at. (poor kid!! :()

Baby steps.. hopefully our grandchildren will have it perfect. :)

I was hoping to skip a couple of generations and be perfect myself. :o


One thing that I only realized as a parent (maybe you already figured this out),.. people don't yell or hit to discipline their child. They do it to manage their own frustration. They do it because they are angry - parenting while angry is REALLY hard. Maybe you already knew that.. i just wanted to share that little revelation I had.


Good point. I guess I never made that connection, I just know you should calm down before disciplining because you're not really thinking when you're mad. MOST of the time, I manage to calm down before doing anything, but sometimes I do forget and start yelling.

The best way to learn is when you need something and you work it out. One day she'll want a clean dish,.. and she'll clean it. ORRR, if she's happy eating from a not so clean dish,.. is that so bad? One day she'll want a clean dish and she'll figure it out. One day she'll have a boyfriend and she'll brush her teeth.

I hear you. I really do. (I think it wouldn't be crazy if you made her take the bus or something to get it herself... or to get to school so you could take her on the weekend or after work or something. It's ok to let that stuff "hurt".
AND it might help you manage your own frustration.
Just a thought.)



The DMV is only open during the week so I couldn't take her on the weekend or after work. She already takes the bus to school so the only thing I could do was make her pay for the new permit.

I do get what you're saying about making her learn the "hard way", when she lost her cell phone, I didn't get her another one for an entire year, but sometimes it doesn't always work where I can make it "hurt". If she doesn't do the dishes, then when I need to cook dinner, there isn't anything clean to cook with. Sure, she suffers, but her sister and I suffer as well because we're hungry and we're waiting on her to do the dishes -so I can cook -so we can eat.


Those are legitimate mountains without any making on your part. :)
you make perfect sense.

Thanks for understanding. Thanks for "talking" me down, I appreciate it. Sometimes I feel so alone with these problems.

Stevuke79
01-06-15, 09:41 PM
Thanks for understanding. Thanks for "talking" me down, I appreciate it. Sometimes I feel so alone with these problems.
:) most parents wouldn't even consider that a child like your daughter doesn't need constant scolding and criticism. Most people who stop in here with similar children tell us all about it.. And I recall one recent guy who left when we told him the spankings wouldn't work.

Good point. I guess I never made that connection, I just know you should calm down before disciplining because you're not really thinking when you're mad. MOST of the time, I manage to calm down before doing anything, but sometimes I do forget and start yelling.

It sounds like you think about keeping calm. Which means even if you thought you didn't, you probably do keep calm more than you realize. (Do I make sense?)

And thanks. Sometimes I envy parents who think yelling is good discipline and not just a way to vent my frustration. You sound very self aware so you can probably relate to what I mean. All parents yell (or most) but they don't feel as selfish as I do about it. It's not fair! Lol! :)

The DMV is only open during the week so I couldn't take her on the weekend or after work. She already takes the bus to school so the only thing I could do was make her pay for the new permit.

I do get what you're saying about making her learn the "hard way", when she lost her cell phone, I didn't get her another one for an entire year, but sometimes it doesn't always work where I can make it "hurt". If she doesn't do the dishes, then when I need to cook dinner, there isn't anything clean to cook with. Sure, she suffers, but her sister and I suffer as well because we're hungry and we're waiting on her to do the dishes -so I can cook -so we can eat.

So I think about this stuff A LOT. I have comorbid OCD, can you tell, lol! So just some ideas.

I think I'm learning that a consequence doesn't have to "hurt" or even significantly inconvenience them. It just has to be "real". I try to catch myself when I'm trying to make a "natural consequence" more painful than it has to be. In other words: part of this is learning what she values and what she DOESNT value. Having an insignificant inconvenience as a natural consequence is it's own kind of lesson.

Regarding dishes, I would tell her how to know if a dish is clean. I know that sounds nuts, but at 16 I wouldn't have noticed that the way to know if a dish I clean isn't just by looking, but you also have to run your wet hand over it as well as looking between the blades of the fork.

That works only assuming she already wants to do the dishes properly. And that's probably true but if not, can you connect a positive consequence?

Most parents, myself included, have mostly negative consequences and find "praising" very unnatural. Which makes sense,.. in life "consequences" are mostly bad. But for teaching a child, it can make them focus on the wrong thing. It makes them want to "get the dishes done" so you won't give a consequence rather than have them focus on "how to do the dishes right" to get a reward.

When they're "good", everything is fine. This is how it's supposed to be. It's hard to notice when everything is going the way it should. Mostly I only notice my daughters behavior when it's un-good. (Not to mention her thought-crimes which I don't eve know about!! Sorry, im in a WEIRD mood tonight!)

Anyway, is there a way you can make her invested in the result of washing dishes? In our house we do allowance which is tied to specific expectations, (we buy her nothing except for her birthday and hanuka). If she wants to have ANYTHING, DD knows she must do a good job washing the proverbial dishes. (We have a whole system which I'll share of you want)

Anyway, I think I would try to give her realistic and tangible things she can use. Like where she can stand at pick up or what rules to tell if a dish is clean.

I know this sounds weird, but at 16, for me, "stand where I can see you" is too complicated. I need parameters. This will teach her to make her own parameters later in life. If she says, "but if I stand only there, I'll be board because I won't be able to talk to people.." Then work it out with her. "Ok, I can see over here.. Or between here and here.. Can I ask you to be in one of those places? Or walking between them?" Something like that. And I also I don't think I could tell if a dish was really clean without my "rules" like it has to feel smooth.
(Even saying this feels weird - I really don't understand myself.)

Does that make any sense?

amber3902
01-06-15, 11:20 PM
It sounds like you think about keeping calm. Which means even if you thought you didn't, you probably do keep calm more than you realize. (Do I make sense?)


Yes, I understand what you mean. Maybe even though I don't "feel" like I'm being calm, for the most part, if I'm angry or upset, I don't act on it. Does that make sense?


And thanks. Sometimes I envy parents who think yelling is good discipline and not just a way to vent my frustration. You sound very self aware so you can probably relate to what I mean. All parents yell (or most) but they don't feel as selfish as I do about it. It's not fair! Lol! :)

Yeah, I know it's not a good form of discipline. I don't like doing it, I hate the way it makes me feel. I hate the way it makes my daughters feel. I feel guilty about it afterwards. But in the moment sometimes you lose control. I don't want to do to my girls what my mom did to me. I hope I'm doing better than she did. I'm pretty sure I am.



Most parents, myself included, have mostly negative consequences and find "praising" very unnatural. Which makes sense,.. in life "consequences" are mostly bad. But for teaching a child, it can make them focus on the wrong thing. It makes them want to "get the dishes done" so you won't give a consequence rather than have them focus on "how to do the dishes right" to get a reward.

When they're "good", everything is fine. This is how it's supposed to be. It's hard to notice when everything is going the way it should. Mostly I only notice my daughters behavior when it's un-good. (Not to mention her thought-crimes which I don't eve know about!! Sorry, im in a WEIRD mood tonight!)

Anyway, is there a way you can make her invested in the result of washing dishes? In our house we do allowance which is tied to specific expectations, (we buy her nothing except for her birthday and hanuka). If she wants to have ANYTHING, DD knows she must do a good job washing the proverbial dishes. (We have a whole system which I'll share of you want)

Anyway, I think I would try to give her realistic and tangible things she can use. Like where she can stand at pick up or what rules to tell if a dish is clean.

I know this sounds weird, but at 16, for me, "stand where I can see you" is too complicated. I need parameters. This will teach her to make her own parameters later in life. If she says, "but if I stand only there, I'll be board because I won't be able to talk to people.." Then work it out with her. "Ok, I can see over here.. Or between here and here.. Can I ask you to be in one of those places? Or walking between them?" Something like that. And I also I don't think I could tell if a dish was really clean without my "rules" like it has to feel smooth.
(Even saying this feels weird - I really don't understand myself.)

Does that make any sense?

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I think I might have OCD as well. I don't wash my hands 20 times a day, but I can't stand clutter, and if there's a little speck of dirt on a table I HAVE to wipe it away.

Anyway, regarding the dishes. We have a dishwasher, so she doesn't even have to "wash" the dishes. But there are certain things "doing the dishes" involves.

She has to:
clear everything off the table
clear everything off the stove
clear everything off all the counters
put away any food left over from dinner
load the dishwasher
wipe off the table
wipe off the stove
wipe off the counters
load anything she discovered while wiping things down into the dishwasher

And the above list I wrote down for her and taped it to the wall.

Even with the list, she would still forget to wipe the table off, or she would leave a pot on the stove, or she would forget to wipe a counter off. Now, granted, it probably sounds like I'm expecting perfection, but I figure after a few weeks, months, YEARS, she should be able to do this in her sleep.
Again, I am worried when she gets a job, she will not be allowed to miss things. If she's stitching up a patient, she can't forget to take the gauze out of the wound first. I hope you are right that with time and age she'll get better, I just always thought by NOW she'd be better. :o

Anyway, some reason the list did not work. So I would do the dishes with her, show her how to put the food away, while I wipe the table she's loading the dishwasher. I'd do this with her a few weeks. Then, I figure she's got it now, so I let her do it on her own.

Then I'm go in later and find she didn't put away a seasoning that was used for cooking dinner, or an opened can wasn't thrown away.

She gets $10 a week as allowance. Every time she doesn't do the dishes properly, she gets docked a dollar. Every week she gets about five dollars. Again, no improvement.

Regarding waiting for me after school. First time I told her she needed to be waiting for me. Next time, I walked her over to the spot where she should stand, which was by some benches. I showed her the benches and said "You can either sit on these benches, or if someone is already sitting here, then stand next to them." Again, next time I came to pick her up, she didn't sit on the benches or stand next to them. *sigh*

I do try to practice what I call "positive reinforcement", basically "catching them while they're doing good". If she did a good job on her hair, (no easy task because she has thick, kinky-curly hair) I complement her on how nice her hair looks. If she does something right, I complement her on it. At first, I did find some of this praising felt unnatural, but after a while it became quite natural to me.

I tell her that I've checked her grades online and that I noticed she's getting an A in Science and how proud I am of her for it. I got her a t-shirt that said "I'm a Math Whiz". I brag to my boyfriend about her grades, and make sure she can overhear me talking about her when I do it. When friends come over and she's in the room, I'll bring out her drawings to show my friends so she can hear them oooh and awe over them. Just tonight she showed me a picture she drew from a photo she took. I told her how good it was and showed my boyfriend. Again, I made sure she was in the room to hear us talk about her talent.

My birthday was last month and she got me a card , a candle and some hand wash from Bath and Body Works. At the time I told her thank you, and then later on I praised her for that, how she thought to do that all on her own, with her own money from her allowance. I wasn't even expecting that she would get me anything.

I think you and the other poster are right when you say I'm over stressed and frustrated right now. My 9 year old was recently diagnosed with dyslexia, and I have to meet with the school next week to go over her first IEP. Preparing for that has been stressful. On top of that, I'm running her to tutoring twice a week and the 16 yr old has piano lessons once a week. The 16 yr old wanted to learn piano, plus I'm fairly certain it will help her APD so I think it's worth it. But the running back and forth after work does wear you out. Then the 9 year old just had a huge crying fit on Sunday. That's another post. :o

I did get a call today, I have an appointment with a psychiatrist next Tuesday. She's going to help me with MY issues.

There's a lot more I could say, but it's getting late.
I do want to say thank you to you and the other folks who have posted on this thread. Even though nothing has really been "solved", I think I've been talked backed from the ledge so to speak and I'm going to sleep a little better tonight. Getting input from you folks has helped me understand things a little better. Once things get straightened out with the 9 yr old's IEP, I'm going to look into some kind of ADHD specialized counseling. It will be helpful not just for the 16 yr old but for the 9 yr old as well.

Thanks to everyone for their input, I do appreciate it.

vpilar
01-07-15, 01:35 AM
The OP made me really mad!!!! I feel for the girl! Maybe I'm biased because she reminds of myself! Can I please vent here as well?
Here we go:

You said she does stupid things! In all you wrote I didn't find one STUPID thing! All I saw was a mom who doesn't understand her teenager daughter, and a girl who doesn't care about some daily-life and social-related stuff as much as she should or she is expected to (because of having ADHD or whatever reason)
... "She doesn't make her bed! She doesn't look at my direction!" SO WHAT? what's the big deal? Leave the poor kid alone!!! I would run from home if my mom was that pushy!

Is it because you're worried that she's not gonna be independent and successful later, or is is it because you're just tired of her being disorganized and sloppy? If it's the former, then your worry is valid. But the focus should be on her, right? If you'r worried about her future and success, you should help her to change, rather than pushing her for doing things over and over, and make life more difficult for her. It's not gonna work like that!
If she doesn't make her bed properly, and doesn't do the dishes, and whatever you've tried hasn't helped, either change your strategy entirely and try something new, or just accept her the way she is!

You sound like a good mom! But if your daughter is different, being a normal good mom without really engaging with her, without understanding her desires and interests and plans, and expecting everything to work out the way you want, it's not gonna work! because most likely you will misunderstand her and you she's not gonna change!

In my opinion, one way for dealing with this is to be relaxed and give her some space, for decreasing the pressure from both her and yourself. For example just let her do whatever she wants with her bed and her own room.
For the more important stuff like the ones that involve others, like doing the dishes, or waiting to be picked up, my suggestion is to treat her like a normal person. Ask a counsellor or psychologist to see what parents do in such situations. Discipline her, punish her, but don't blame her or don't make a drama out of it. Don't relate her mistakes to her ADHD or being stupid! You can just tell her if she missed you at school one day because of being careless, she has to wait till you pick up her sister and go back to pick her up, something like that.

If you're always repeating the same thing to her over and over, and are nagging her, she 's not gonna take you seriously. Don't complain about everything she does! accept some, and work on some specific ones!
Try to work on your approach and attitude! Try to think that she's gonna be fine in the future and just react appropriately for each mistake she does! rather than relating all mistakes together! nothing will improve if she sense that you're disappointed at her.... how is she gonna change, if you don't believe in her? ...

... What are the things she is good at? focus on those. encourage her to focus on the stuff for which she is motivated and feels responsibility..

....Of course it's better for everyone to be organized and perfect, but it's not the end of life if they are not!

.... I think she can be a doctor, but still lose her belongings occasionally or doesn't spend time in doing the work inside home, etc... I know many successful people who are 10 times more sever in the behaviours you described that your daughter has.
But I don't think she can be a doctor, if she's being exposed to the feeling that she's not good enough, or if she's not being given the space to grow her confidence and do things based on her likings...

BellaVita
01-07-15, 04:04 AM
Thank you. I used to go to a meditation group, which helped me deal with stress, but the group disbanded.

Could you find another group? I'm sure there's plenty if you search around. It may be well worth it, especially since it helped you before.

I would send her to live with my dad, but he's in another state. DD is a junior in school and I am loathe to make her start over again in a new school when she basically has one year left of school to make friends.

Even if I sent her to stay with her dad, getting her to school would be a nightmare. He lives about an hour away and works nights.

I see. That makes sense. However, I do know it's not as difficult as one might think to switch schools right before graduating. But if she is very settled in to her school, then perhaps she should stay there.

Oh wow, it would take an hour for her to get to school?

I don't know if I could afford boarding school. My 9 year old is getting tutoring for dyslexia, and it costs $500 a month, so I can't afford anything else right now. Do you know if it cost your parents a lot?

I'm not sure how much it was.

I really thought I would be a good mom, but now I wonder if I should have ever had children in the first place. I thought I would be a better mom than my mom was, that I would show her! I guess I am being too picky. I am just worried that DD will be a failure, and if she's a failure, that means I've failed her as a parent because I didn't do everything I was supposed to do to ensure she could function on her own.

Well, you definitely can't take back having children (obviously) so it's best to work with what you've got. Comparing yourself to your mom isn't going to help, it will only create anxiety and make you feel worse.

If she is a failure, that does not mean you failed her as a parent. She is supposed to make her own mistakes in life, you are there to support her and help her grow yes, but where she ends up after she leaves your house is in her control and things will happen based on her decisions.

I think focusing on her more instead of yourself, will help as it seems a lot of your posts are centered around you and how hard it is for you.

It's hard for your daughter too.

And life isn't fair, it shouldn't be a "who has it worse" thing, yes it may be extremely difficult and you may indeed need some help, that's okay but you shouldn't make it known to everyone around you (especially your daughter) how bad she is making life for you.

I get sick a lot and I worry how she will take care of herself if I'm incapacitated or *god forbid* not here anymore?

Take it one day at a time, you're looking too far into the future over what-ifs that aren't helpful as they are only putting you in a state of distress.

You need a support system, perhaps have her go over to friends' houses as much as possible to get a break for yourself, I can not stress enough how important a break may be for you to rejuvenate and nourish yourself.

Stevuke79
01-07-15, 06:23 AM
I think amber is doing great!

A teacher once told me that grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children.
(Not trying to invoke religion, which is against the rules.)

In some sense, raising a child "correctly" is literally impossible. We'll never be laid back enough, but if we are then we're not strict enough. We'll never be proactive and involved enough, and if we ever are then our child needs more space.:faint: (I need a white flag emoticon!)

amber3902
01-07-15, 09:50 AM
You said she does stupid things! In all you wrote I didn't find one STUPID thing!

I'm sorry my post made you mad.

I notice you and some other people are getting hung up on the fact that I call what she does stupid. Thatís just my way of describing what she does. Again, I never call her stupid, this is me venting on this forum. When she does these things, I might lose my temper and yell at her, but I donít ridicule her, call her stupid, or tell her sheís a dummy.

Some might call it call it a ďblond momentĒ or not paying attention, or her ADHD. I donít know what you would call it, but I certainly wouldnít call it smart.

I certainly wouldnít say ďYeah, she was really thinking ahead today. She knew I was on my way to pick her up, so she stayed inside the school so she wouldnít have any idea when I got to the school to pick her up.Ē

You know, I hear all the time that you cannot use ADHD as an excuse, and I've even heard this from parents of ADHD children. Even the therapist that treated her for her APD told her she can't use her hearing problem as an excuse.

My DD isn't perfect, but neither am I. I have been holding all this in for so long. And I only gave a few examples of what she does. If I listed everything she does on a daily basis I'd blow this forum up. Almost every day she says or does something that makes you go "Did she really just say/do that?" People say I need to have more understanding, well how about some understanding for what I'm going through? Is that being so selfish?

Yes, I am worried that she won't be independent later on, but I'm also tired of her doing a half ***** job on her chores.

I am trying to be patient and understanding with her. And most of the time I am. Itís just after the ten millionth time of saying DD, you didn't put this away, DD, you didn't wipe the table, DD, you didn't put this away, DD, you can do a better job on this, DD, DD, DD, DD, DD, AUGH!!!!!!!!! You really get tired!

There are a lot of things I let slide, like her bedroom or leaving stuff on the floor, but there's comes a time when you have to put your foot down and say, okay, I'll let the mess in the bedroom slide, but I can't let you half ***** the dishes anymore. Yes, you have ADHD, but you can't let that be an excuse for doing a poor job on something, especially when I know you can do better.

And really, if she just did the dishes correctly 80% of the time, I'd be happy.

amber3902
01-07-15, 10:00 AM
I think amber is doing great!

I don't know if I would go THAT far.

I am trying. Just like my DD, she is trying, but she fails sometimes. And I am trying, but I do fail sometimes.


In some sense, raising a child "correctly" is literally impossible. We'll never be laid back enough, but if we are then we're not strict enough. We'll never be proactive and involved enough, and if we ever are then our child needs more space.:faint: (I need a white flag emoticon!)

Like I said in the other post, I have heard from other parents of ADHD children say you can't let ADHD be an excuse. I do try to let some things slide, but then you wonder, am I being too lax? Do I let my child be an irresponsible slob?

Walking that tightrope between being patient and understanding, and not letting your child use ADHD as an excuse is a balancing act. Sometimes you fall off the wire.

I may not be able to send DD anywhere right now because of school, but I do think I am going to ask my dad to take her for the summer. (My mom is dead so I don't have to worry about her screwing DD up.)

moth2flame
01-07-15, 10:24 AM
Hi there, I'm really sorry you are having these troubles, and I hope maybe I can shed some light on them from your daughter's perspective. The things you are venting about here sound a LOT like the problems I had at her age, and some of which I continue to have even now (and I'm 32!).

I am very smart intellectually, but also did (and still do) a lot of things that can easily be perceived as "stupid," when you don't take into account the disability that ADHD causes. I hope maybe I can explain some of them to you in a way that might make more sense, so that you might be able to empathize more with your daughter, and look for solutions instead of perpetuating problems...

Normally she uses her cell phone as an alarm clock, but as punishment I took it away. She was like How am I going to get up in the morning? I said use your alarm clock. She set the alarm, but it didn't go off in the morning. I said Are you sure you set the alarm time for AM and not PM? Yeah, mom. Okay, next morning, same thing again, alarm doesn't go off. I check the alarm clock, DD, your clock's time is set for PM when it should be AM! *blank stare from DD*

DD, your alarm time is set for AM, but it's not going to ring in the morning because your clock's TIME is set for PM! *more blank stare*

I make this mistake with setting alarms, too; it is a very easy detail to overlook. Rather than getting angry at her, it would be much more constructive to *show her how* to set the time and alarms correctly... or at least double check that she has done it correctly BEFORE she goes to sleep, before it ever has a chance to become a problem.

I go to pick her up from summer camp. I tell her I am coming early today to take her to a doctor's appointment. I text her and say I will be there in ten minutes. I walk into the YMCA and look around, no DD. I figure she must be in the bathroom, so I sit down by the front doors and wait. And wait. And wait. Finally, I call her on her phone. She's in the movie room, watching a movie. She said she was waiting for me to call her to tell her to come out! I'm like, I told you I was on my way! How am I supposed to know where you are?

With ADHD, noticing passing time can be very impaired. 10 minutes may not seem like much to you, but to her it may be a timeframe she is unable to keep track of, through no fault of her own.

Why did you wait, and not call her immediately once you arrived and didn't see her? Don't wait for things to become bigger problems: solve problems however you can as soon as they arise, whenever you can.

Same thing when I pick her up from school. Sometimes instead of taking the bus home, she will stay late for a club so I will pick her up. Now, instead of her waiting outside where she can see me when I pull up, she's inside the school. The school has a driveway in front of it where parents drive through to pick up their kids. All the other students are outside, waiting for their parents to pick them up. Not DD, she's inside the school.

Why not just call her when you actually arrive, rather than expecting to her to wait in one place for what she may perceive as a painfully long time for her?

After I get off work, I have to pick up 9 year old from her school, drop her off at her tutoring, run to 16 year old's school to pick her up, and drive back to 9 year old's tutoring before her session is over. It is cutting it close. I tell DD, I have to be back before your sister's tutoring is over, you have to be outside the school so you can see me when I pull up so you don't make me late getting back to pick up your sister.

So the next time comes, I'm in my car in the driveway, waiting. I can only pull up but so far because other parents are in their cars in front of me. I text her, DD, I'm here. No response. Finally, I see her walking towards the car. I said, Why weren't you waiting outside like I told you? She says I was waiting outside, I was just over there sitting down with my friends so I didn't see you. DD, you need to be standing where you can see me when I pull up. I can't always pull up in the driveway that far because there are cars in front of me.

Next time, she's outside, but now she's standing behind a F%CKING column! I show her where she needs to stand so she can see me. Next time when I pull up, she is standing where she can see me, but SHE IS LOOKING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF WHERE CARS ARE COMING FROM! I say to myself, she's going to look this way and see me. Nope. I wait for her to look in my direction, the direction ALL CARS ARE COMING FROM BECAUSE THE DRIVEWAY IS A ONE WAY STREET. I honk my horn. Finally she looks my way. She says she didn't want to look my direction because she didn't want the girl standing next to her to think she was trying to look at her. :mad::mad::mad::mad: The girl standing "next" to her, was at least five feet away from her.

...again, why not just call her when you arrive?? That seems like the best solution to me, especially when you are pressed for time. Why should she have to stand in one spot and look in one single direction for an unspecified (again, probably painfully long for her) amount of time?

I'd also like to point out that when we were kids, there were no cell phones, so it made more sense that we needed to watch for our parents' arrival. But now the technology is available to alert her directly when you arrive... save the stress for both of you and USE IT! Don't place expectations on her she will have to struggle to meet, if she doesn't outright fail and give up.

She's been doing dishes since she was 12, and she has YET to do them correctly. She forgets to wipe the table off, or she forgets to put something away. Or she misses a pot on the stove. I've written a list for her, she doesn't follow the list. I do the dishes with her. Unless I'm there every freaking day, breathing down her neck, telling her everything single last thing to do, she screws it up!

I was the same way with dishes as a kid, and I still am now. I am NOT good at doing them, for a number of reasons: I am grossed out by the sensory and conceptual aspects (old food, other people's germs, not liking how it felt when my hands were wrinkled and soapy, being unable to tolerate hot enough water, etc.), and I have really poor task persistence, which means I rush through nearly everything I don't enjoy, dishes included. This means dishes were often done poorly (food/grease remaining due to rushing, or resisting to even start due to being grossed out).

Have you ever asked her if she knows why she has trouble? She may not know, but it is worth asking. Can she not pay attention long enough because the job is boring? Does hot/soapy water or some other aspect bother her? Does she have trouble with the tools, like a sponge not being good enough for scrubbing? If it's the latter things, offering her dish gloves or a different kind of brush or scrubber might help. Let her listen to music she likes while she works if she gets bored, that might help her stay on task.

She's 16 years old! Her 9 year old sister has ADHD and makes her bed up better than she does! Her 9 year old sister keeps her room neater than her!

Maybe so, but they are two completely different people, with their own unique challenges and strengths. Your 9 year old's ADHD may be less severe, or may impact her in completely different ways than your 16 year old. Comparing one child to another helps no one, and may really hurt in the long run.

I get up this morning, go down stairs, and see all the things she didn't put away last night when she did the dishes. The bread's out, she's left a dirty pitcher on the counter, and there were several cans of opened food left on the counters. She says she doesn't see them.

It's possible that she really doesn't see these things. I have this exact same problem, specifically with things I do not find very interesting, and I will try to explain it to you as best as I understand it:

My focus within my field of vision naturally tends to be *extremely* narrow. The only time it widens even a little is when I am VERY interested in whatever I am looking at. Dirty dishes and left-out food, I guarantee you, are not at all interesting, ever!

So when she looks for dishes, her focus is incredibly narrow. Imagine looking through a hole punched in a sheet of paper, so that you can only see one thing at a time as you move the paper around: that's what it feels like.

I might walk past the same dish or spot on the floor or my keys 20 times, and not ever actually SEE them because my little pinpoint of boring-things focus did not land in the exact right spot. It might take 15 minutes and tons of energy to find something that is within plain sight. She might be giving up out of frustration. Trust me, this is probably as frustrating to her as it is to you!

I told her to write a thank you note for some Christmas gifts she got from family. This morning I asked her for the thank you note so I could mail it. I checked what she wrote.
...
I said, first of all, that was not a photo album, that was a bunch of photo FRAMES with our pictures in them. A photo album is a book. And Sue and Pat did not give you that. They gave that to me. They gave you EAR BUDS.

When you asked her to write that note, how specific were you in your request? Did you ask: "DD, please write a note to Sue and Pat to say 'thank you' for the ear buds." Or, did you ask, "DD, please write a thank you note to Sue and Pat for the Christmas gift?"

If the latter, I can understand her confusion. She might not have understood that you wanted her to write a note thanking them for HER OWN gift - she might have thought you meant "please write a note thanking them for their gifts" IN GENERAL, which could be any of the gifts, including the photos. Much the same way you might ask her to do dishes for the benefit of the family, not just herself, she might have thought you wanted her to write a note for you. It might have seemed obvious to you, but it was not obvious to her.

She might also not realize that "photo album" refers to a specific thing - in this case, a book - and not just generally "a collection of photos." In the internet age we live in, the word "album" is now quite often used to refer to just a folder of digital photos, not only a book. If she doesn't understand the word definitions well, it would make perfect sense to her to thank them for "the collection of photos," which is what she believes they gave you. That is perhaps why the blank stares; she thought she was doing what you had asked her to, and was confused when you were upset.

The solution is to tell her EXACTLY what she needs to do, with no uncertain language. Again, you must set her up to succeed, not to fail. It doesn't matter how old she is; she's at the level of development she's at, and if she needs you to be explicitin your requests, well, that's just what she needs.

You don't "grow out" of ADHD, so how is my daughter ever going to get and keep a job? If she can't SEE the things she's leaving on the counters, how is she is going to SEE when she didn't put fries in the happy meal?

It's very possible she won't ever be able to SEE them, and jobs that require that kind of seeing may not ever be an option for her. This is not her being "stupid," it is part of her disability. You wouldn't expect a dyslexic to work as a copy editor, would you?

I've had food service jobs where I was expected to clean, and it was pretty much my worst nightmare. I was usually able to do it - barely - but almost never to the level of perfection expected of me. Know what I did? Quit those jobs and persued work I was actually good at, and able to do, and I am pretty successful in my chosen career now. And I am still terrible at doing dishes. :)

She wants to be a doctor, how is she going to SEE white spots in a patient's throat? She's going to be fired from every job she gets. A boss is not going to "give only one step instructions" to her. He's going to show her one time and expect her to get it.

Something you need to understand about ADHD, is that if she is INTERESTED in something, then her ability to "see" things related to what is interesting or exciting will be much better. I, too, have trouble "seeing" things in boring tasks like doing dishes, which is why I can understand what your daughter is going through.

I am tired of dealing with her. I am tired of trying to "patient" and "understanding". I'm tired of trying to remember that she can be so smart in school, but so stupid at home! She has a 3.7 GPA right now. She can calculate math problems in her head that I would need a calculator for.

It sounds as though she is a bright person with many strengths; you are just frustrated and don't understand how her disorder affects her. I encourage you to learn as much as you possibly can about ADHD; as others have suggested, some type of therapist or coach who specializes in these issues might really be able to help you and your daughter both find some solutions that will actually work.

Also, I'm sorry to say this, but I don't get the feeling you ARE actually being patient and understanding with her. It sounds like you are in many cases setting her up to fail by placing too-high expectations on her. It's obvious you're very stressed out and dealing with your own emotional issues, but I really think it would help you to take a few steps back, and see how your OWN behavior is leading to both you and your daughter suffering here.

So many of her issues you've described are classic ADHD, which she simply has no control over; hard as it may be you are going to have to accept that your daughter is NOT ready for many of the responsibilities you are placing on her. Some of them, she might never be ready for. And it may or may not matter, in the long run. You really do need to pick your battles; is it worth so much energy and stress over relatively unimportant things like whether she sees you arrive when you pick her up from school?

I have unfortunately been in her shoes here too: my own mother did not understand ADHD, or even that there was a name for the problems I was having, and she very frequently placed MUCH more responsibility on me than I was ready for, or capable of, handling. Her reasoning was that because I was "smart," I should be able to figure these things out. Wrong. This lead me to many failures, many arguments, stress and eventual low self-esteem and depression. If these problems take root in her, it WILL make it extremely difficult for her to be successful as an adult, regardless of what she chooses as a career.

If she was stupid all the time I could remember to treat her that way, and only expect so much of her, but it's the stupid-smart-responsible-irresponsible stuff that throws me! She NEVER needs to be told to do her homework, but she needs to be told EVERY DAY to do the dishes!

This is ADHD exactly: highly inconsistent performance across different areas of life is standard for this disorder. So you are indeed going to need to remind her every day to do the dishes if you want them to be done, that's the way she is. She might get better over time, or she might not. Again, I am 32, and dishes are still one of the least favorite and most difficult things for me.


-She can organize a school project, and get it done ahead of time, but she can't organize her bedroom so she doesn't lose things.

These things aren't the same at all! Organizing things in your head, on paper, or a smallish collection of papers/books, is VERY different from organizing an entire room and all its various systems.

There is also a huge difference between something that only needs doing once, like a school project, and something that needs to be done repeatedly, like keeping a room organized and functional. I am very good at the former, but TERRIBLE at the latter!

-She can discuss current events and politics, she knows the key differences between a liberal and a conservative, but can't comprehend how to set her alarm clock so it will ring in the morning and not in the evening!

One of these things is interesting and intellectually stimulating; the other is not. Guess which one people with ADHD have trouble with?

-She can look online at a detailed drawing of Spiderman and draw it exactly the same, but she can't look at the stove and see a dirty pot that needs to be cleaned.

I am an artist by profession; I can see every minute detail in my art - which interests me - but I too easily miss any number of other details in things which do not interest me.

I've given her tips, stragies, advice on how to do things so she won't forget. She doesn't do any of them! I've yelled, I've talked, I've taken devices away, punish, ground. Nothing seems to make any impression in that head of hers.

The problem with strategies is that different ones work for different people, there is no one size fits all even without considering ADHD. Your daughter is obviously not the same as you, her brain does not work the same way, and the strategies that will work for her may be COMPLETELY different than what will work for you.

One thing I notice is that you advise, yell, talk... yet you say she has auditory processing disorder! This can be a real nightmare for listening to verbal instructions of any kind, even without the impact ADHD has on working memory. I have problems with verbal instructions myself; I absolutely must see things written down, or they just don't stick at all.

Again, you're expecting her to do things she just is not capable of doing, and may never be able to do. And some of them may not even matter that much to her when she is an adult, on her own and making her own decisions about how to live her life.

Really, I am truly sorry that you're struggling right now. I do think that therapy for *you* is a very, very good idea; it's clear you're stressed for reasons well beyond just your daughter, and her behaviors may just be adding fuel onto an already raging fire. At times when I was growing up, the anger and frustration my parents directed towards me was almost certainly the result of me being the "straw breaking the camel's back" - but unfortunately, at the time all I perceived was that they were angry at me, and for things I really couldn't control. This caused a lot of emotional damage that I am still working through in therapy to this day.

Your daughter is likely perceiving exactly the same thing, emotionally; what she lacks in verbal processing she may very well make up for with intuition or emotional empathy. Please remember this if you can, and try to have compassion for her when she is struggling. I know how hard it is to have this disorder and have parents who can't or won't understand, and I can tell you that a little understanding can go a LONG way towards making her feel loved and supported. I hope you can both find a way to get the help and support that you need!

amber3902
01-07-15, 11:32 AM
Moth2flame,
Thank you for taking the time to write that detailed response to my post. I appreciate it.

One time I should clarify is when I say:
"DD, your clock's time is set for PM when it should be AM!"

Iím not angry at her. Iím merely saying "Hey! Look here, you set it for the wrong time. Oh wow! No wonder it didnít ring!"
And yeah, itís a small detail to overlook, which is why the first time I asked her Are you SURE you set the time for AM and not PM?

She waves me off dismissively. Yeah yeah yeah mom. I did. I did.
So I leave. I donít want to treat her like a five year old. I want to show her that I trust that she knows what she is doing.
And again, not a big deal, she didnít get yelled at, she didnít get punished. I was just giving some examples of the daily frustrations I go through with her.

Regarding picking her up from school, Iím going to give more detail so you understand exactly what happens.

The first time she wasnít outside, My attitude was like Okay, she didn't understand, etc., it's not a big deal. I explain her she needs to be outside. The second time, she's outside, but behind a column so she still can't see me when I pull up so I tell her she needs to be outside, standing where she can see me. The third time, I walk her over to the benches and show her exactly where she should be so she can see me.

Fourth time, I again tell her. Fifth time, sixth time, seventh, eight. How many times before you lose your patience?

And I do call her on her cell phone, but she doesnít answer her phone. So I leave a message. Funny thing about messages, you actually have to check your phone so you know someone left you a message!

So sure I can call/text her, but if she doesnít answer her phone, or check for texts, thereís no point in calling.

And Iím not saying she needs to stand in one spot and look in one single direction for an unspecified amount of time. Iím saying you know someone is coming to get you, look in the direction they will be coming from occasionally. If you know the car coming to get you will be coming down Spring Street, why would you keep looking down Mulberry Lane? Does that make any sense at all?


So when she looks for dishes, her focus is incredibly narrow. Imagine looking through a hole punched in a sheet of paper, so that you can only see one thing at a time as you move the paper around: that's what it feels like.

Yes, I can understand that. And Iíve talked to her about the dishes and asked her what would help her. She basically said she doesnít know why she doesnít see things.

Okay, I know sheís not purposely trying to do this, but having this weakness does not absolve you from doing things. Again, I wrote down a list of what she needed to do. She wouldn't look at the list. I walk through it with her - as soon as I stop doing it with her she messes up again. I do a system of rewards which doesn't make her improve.

I told her if she has a hard time seeing things left on the counters, she has to come up with some kind of system or method to help her so she doesn't miss anything. I can come up with a method for her, or if she doesn't like my suggestions, fine, she needs to come up with one of her own. But she just can't not do them correctly. And again, if she just did the right most of the time, and once in a while missed something, that would be okay.


I know people say it won't be that important for her to know how to do the dishes correctly later on in life, that she's not doing it well because it's not interesting to her, but there is NO job out there that is 100% interesting 100% of the time. No matter what job she gets, there are going to parts of any job that she will not find interesting, that she will HAVE to figure out how to get through.

I had one job, where I had to create accounts for several different kinds of users. Each user account had different permissions. I couldn't remember what each one got. So I created a chart for myself. DD needs to do the same thing. I told her if she can only see one small part of the kitchen at a time, she needs to start at one end of the counter, make sure that's cleared off and slowly move to the right until she's reached the other end of the counter. Again, sometimes I might yell, but 90% of the time, I'm talking to her, writing lists yes, because she does have APD, trying to problem solve with her and help her.

Better she figure how to do this now, when it's not such a big deal, than to encounter a situation where it IS a big deal and she doesn't know how to come up with a way of dealing with it.

Please don't think I'm not taking what you're saying to heart or that I'm trying to argue with you. I have read every word of your post and a lot of what you've said is VERY helpful. I can accept some things about what she does, and I will let some things slide, but I have to draw the line somewhere. There are going to be things in her life that she will not find interesting, that she is going to have to do anyway. And just because she doesn't find it interesting will not be a good enough excuse.

Lunacie
01-07-15, 12:05 PM
Please don't think I'm not taking what you're saying to heart or that I'm trying to argue with you. I have read every word of your post and a lot of what you've said is VERY helpful. I can accept some things about what she does, and I will let some things slide, but I have to draw the line somewhere. There are going to be things in her life that she will not find interesting, that she is going to have to do anyway. And just because she doesn't find it interesting will not be a good enough excuse.

Earlier you made a point about not using ADHD as an excuse. Yeah, that's true.

But having ADHD is a reason for difficulty in focusing and remembering.
A very real medical reason.

Yes, there are things we have to do as adults,
and we can ask someone else to trade jobs with us,
or pay someone else to do those things for us
if we can't manage to do them on our own.

I can't count the number of posters here who say paying bills is difficult,
and late fees mount up.

The advice is to get a financial planner to help, or to use automated bill-pay.

We don't give the advice to put.on.your.big.girl.panties.and.just.do.it.
Because.we.can't.just.do.it.
We have a real medical reason why we can't do everything everyone else does.

It's hard to accept that your kids are not normal,
and they can't do things that other kids can.
Believe me, I know. My youngest granddaughter is autistic.
It's heartbreaking at times to see kids who are half her age
doing things that she just can't do.

But I belong to a parenting forum for parents of autistic kids
and we celebrate every new accomplishment,
no matter if it happens much, much later for our special kids.

My granddaughter can't tie shoelaces or button buttons.
Some days she can zip her jacket, some days she needs help.
She is 13.
We finally got her moved to a school where the teacher totally "gets" her.
This teacher knows if she is doing things because she's 13 years old
and that's what kids that age do ...
or whether she does them because she has a medical reason called autism.

She doesn't get punished either way, but the expectations are different.
Are your expectations for your daughter realistic?

amber3902
01-07-15, 03:49 PM
For those of you on this thread that provided helpful advice, suggestions, input, thank you, I really appreciate it. However, I am very discouraged by the attitude some of the posters on here seem to have about me.

If expecting my D16 to be able to do the dishes correctly most of the time is being unrealistic, well then, so be it. Someone said to pick my battles. I will compromise on everything else, but this is the ONE thing I will not compromise on because it affects more than just her.

I notice ya'll want me to tell my DD she's doing a good job, but don't want anyone to tell me I'm doing a good job. I've said more than once I am trying my best, but I guess the advice to give more praise than criticism only applies to people with ADHD. :(

When I posted on here, I wasn't looking for sympathy. Yes, I was venting, but I was also looking for help/suggestions/advice. But some people have taken my post way too personally, instead of remembering that "everyone is different and every situation is different". I guess I shouldn't have posted, I should have just kept my frustrations pent up inside until I REALLY snapped. :(

Lunacie
01-07-15, 04:34 PM
What I was reading reminded me a lot of my own childhood -
more than 50 years ago.

My mom didn't have any idea how to deal with a child like me,
and she didn't have anyone to ask ... or vent to.

But that was the example I had when I began helping to raise my grandkids,
and I will forever be thankful for this forum,
and especially for people like Dizfriz,
who helped me learn how to be a better parent
by pointing out things I did that aren't very helpful
and suggesting things I could do that were more helpful.

I've told this story so many times ... but the OP hasn't read it yet:

When my granddaughter was between the ages of 5 and 10
she drove me absolutely crazy because she never turned off anything ...
lights were left blazing, the tv was playing the end song of a video endlessly
while she had gone into another room and turned on the radio or computer
and the sound of that was competing with the tv.

I wasn't very patient, she hadn't actually been diagnosed yet,
and I got really tired of reminding her to turn off the whatever.
Yeah, I didn't have much patience and she used it all up every day.

But making her feel like she was stupid because she couldn't remember
wasn't making either of us feel any better ... or do any better.
Finally I read something about how that was helping
and I started reminding her very calmly and simply,
"Katlin, the light please." or "Katlin, the tv please."

Yeah, I still had to remind her A LOT,
but slowly her brain began to catch up with her chronological age
and she didn't have to be reminded every single time.

When you yell at a child, all they think about is how that makes them feel.
When you ask them to do something they're more likely to try to do it.

And yeah, you can "yell" at a child without raising your voice.
My mom didn't yell, but I never felt confident or courageous.

So Amber, I'm sure you're doing the best you know how to do,
but I'm telling you that there are better ways
and I hope you're willing to learn
because it will help you and both of your daughters.

michaelaisabell
01-07-15, 04:36 PM
I didn't read through the 3 pages of replies but I think you are really misunderstanding what ADHD is.
Yes some ppl take concerta for the first time and clean the whole house but most don't. If you want a maid hire a maid. If you want a self-confident, successful and strong young woman then give her a different chore. Something she can bare the thought of getting done.
Your dd is not stupid or lazy. She has a different brain than what society wants of her.

I'm not going to ramble. Here are some links.

This video is the first of 4 lectures
http://youtu.be/gQi_dL1PPpI

YouTube Russell Barkley and you will find a ton of videos.

This is a great article that another member posted a couple days ago
http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/10117.html

And this last one deals with motivation. http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/11/26/9-ways-for-adults-with-adhd-to-get-motivated/

Totallyadd.com can be useful too.

daveddd
01-07-15, 04:52 PM
For those of you on this thread that provided helpful advice, suggestions, input, thank you, I really appreciate it. However, I am very discouraged by the attitude some of the posters on here seem to have about me.

If expecting my D16 to be able to do the dishes correctly most of the time is being unrealistic, well then, so be it. Someone said to pick my battles. I will compromise on everything else, but this is the ONE thing I will not compromise on because it affects more than just her.

I notice ya'll want me to tell my DD she's doing a good job, but don't want anyone to tell me I'm doing a good job. I've said more than once I am trying my best, but I guess the advice to give more praise than criticism only applies to people with ADHD. :(

When I posted on here, I wasn't looking for sympathy. Yes, I was venting, but I was also looking for help/suggestions/advice. But some people have taken my post way too personally, instead of remembering that "everyone is different and every situation is different". I guess I shouldn't have posted, I should have just kept my frustrations pent up inside until I REALLY snapped. :(

I'm sure your doing your best

it can be very difficult to separate add from being a teen or kid, and you will likely get the add side of it here

i think if she puts her mind to it she can do the dishes, we aren't complete invalids, after a life of beat downs i personally have a tendency to take every slight as an insult

i bet you're a great mom, be reasonable and i bet those dishes get done

TygerSan
01-07-15, 04:57 PM
You seem to be getting responses primarily (but not exclusively) from the former ADHD child side of things. I really hope that some more parents come through with their strategies for similar issues.

One of the things that I think is hardest in a situation when dealing with disabilities is tossing aside any notion of should or ought to.

Would most 16 year olds be able to do the dishes without prompting? Absolutely. Apparently, despite cajoling, prodding, pleading, whatever, your daughter isn't able to do the job up to standards.

I get it, I really do. You're at the end of your tether. You need help, you need support. You need your daughter to successfully complete the task at hand.

I'm willing to bet (and I hope this has come through in the many impassioned pleas you thread has provoked) that your daughter doesn't want to screw up either. She may have given up as hopeless. Or she may be copping some simple teenage attitude. It's hard to tease out the two issues.

If she misses a pot or two, how do you react? Like Lunacie's example with the light switch, you may have to come behind her and check her work. If she has a couple of nights with some success, you may be able to step back and allow more freedom. It simply may take a bit longer for the skill to internalize.

She'll get it eventually. I have every hope.

If that's not acceptable, would it be possible to give her a different chore? Maybe she has an idea of something she'd have more success with?

Compassion is a beautiful thing, and it begins with compassion for yourself. I beat myself up constantly. I am anxious and want stuff to be done in a specific way. I have caught myself holding myself to impossible standards. More recently, I've come to the realization that if I do it to myself, I have to be very mindful of not doing it to others.

I guess that's by way of saying, I bet I would be equally as frustrated and annoyed by my hypothetical daughter as you are with yours. But sometimes when we run up against roadblocks, all that happens when we think about the shoulds is that we bounce into the barriers head-on and stop, spinning our wheels into even deeper grooves. Letting go of the shoulds allows us to back up and take the less-desired detour. But at least we're still moving forward rather than getting stuck.

Fuzzy12
01-07-15, 07:38 PM
I think you might have to give up on the dishes and accept that this is something she will never or at least for the time being not do well. If you stick with this chore it will just continue frustrating both of you. It's a bit like insisting that your cat needs to learn to bark because you'd really like to have a dog.

Are there some other chores you could give her that don't require attention to detail?

dvdnvwls
01-08-15, 03:33 AM
If expecting my D16 to be able to do the dishes correctly most of the time is being unrealistic, well then, so be it.

By this logic, you have no right to feel any fibromyalgia pain, and certainly no reason to mention that you have it.

YOUR DAUGHTER HAS ADHD. If you want to start out by simply denying that ADHD makes a difference in her ability (not her desire) to do the dishes the way you like, then what are you doing here?

BellaVita
01-08-15, 03:38 AM
For those of you on this thread that provided helpful advice, suggestions, input, thank you, I really appreciate it. However, I am very discouraged by the attitude some of the posters on here seem to have about me.

If expecting my D16 to be able to do the dishes correctly most of the time is being unrealistic, well then, so be it. Someone said to pick my battles. I will compromise on everything else, but this is the ONE thing I will not compromise on because it affects more than just her.

I notice ya'll want me to tell my DD she's doing a good job, but don't want anyone to tell me I'm doing a good job. I've said more than once I am trying my best, but I guess the advice to give more praise than criticism only applies to people with ADHD. :(

When I posted on here, I wasn't looking for sympathy. Yes, I was venting, but I was also looking for help/suggestions/advice. But some people have taken my post way too personally, instead of remembering that "everyone is different and every situation is different". I guess I shouldn't have posted, I should have just kept my frustrations pent up inside until I REALLY snapped. :(

Maybe you could set up a reward system. I know she's 16, but it could work.

My Mom did this for me for several years.

Create a chart with her chores on it, and out a tally mark/a point or sticker when she completes her chore. The chore doesn't have to be done perfectly. However, if she sometimes does a bit better on a chore, maybe she could gain extra points.

Create a reward list.

She can save the points up, and choose a reward (one that you said she could have) after a certain amount of time.

Make a minimum number of points she has to attain in order to get small items, and use better rewards for when she collects lots of points.

You could even use fake coins for the reward, and then eventually she could get to trade it for real money.

People with ADHD often need something to motivate them, and rewards can work well for this.

I think you are doing a good job by coming here, because this community is very helpful and provides good advice.

dvdnvwls
01-08-15, 03:50 AM
Consider the possibility of taking your older daughter off of the dishes, where she's consistently failing, and trading that for some other task that she succeeds in more often. The other task might even be one that you would rate as more difficult - it's good results that count, not which person washes the pots.

RobboW
01-08-15, 07:07 AM
I've had to skip read through this thread so missed a lot of it, but did anyne mention ADHD is hereditary?
It came from either mum or dad.

We have four children who all exhibit signs of ADHD (came from me) and by golly it's frustrating, but at least I understand it. Our 16 year old daughter sounds a lot like the one this thread is about. She's intelligent, she's sweet, but she's so not in tune with normal life. We're worried about her needing to learn to drive soon.....

I'm really ADD but I can still see it in others. You develop ADD radar, lol.

TygerSan
01-08-15, 07:29 AM
Right on, Robbo. I think that a lot of problems arise when you put two ADHDers with vastly different coping mechanisms in the same situation, together, and watch the sparks fly.

if it takes a vast amount of energy and effort to keep the kitchen clean, and you have developed systems so that when you walk into the kitchen to cook you can cook, it becomes beyond frustrating when someone else comes and smashes those systems to pieces because they can't even see the mess they're leaving behind.

amber3902
01-08-15, 08:39 AM
I wasn't going to post anymore on this thread but I wanted to report last night I went and checked the kitchen after DD had done the dishes.

Amazingly the dishes were all done and nothing was missed. So it appears DD IS able to do the dishes correctly.

I told her she did a great job. I told her I know she isn't perfect, and she may not always do the dishes without missing anything, but she is a smart, capable girl and she should be able to do the dishes right MOST of the time.

People keep asking is there something else she could do. No, there isn't. There are only two household tasks that need to be done on a daily basis - cooking meals and doing the dishes. Maybe one day, when she learns how she can cook dinner and I'll do the dishes instead. But in the meantime, this is the only daily task she has to do to contribute to the running of the household.

Yes, I have fibromyalgia. I might call in sick once in a while, but MOST of the time, I drag my butt in to work and do my job. I also do things to keep the pain manageable - I exercise, do yoga and take medication.

Yes, my DD has ADHD. But she should be ale to do something right MOST of the time. And she has to do things so she is able to do what she needs to do - take medication and use strategies and routines.

Someone else mentioned about ADHD being heredity. I am going to get tested for ADHD myself because the more I'm learning about it the more I'm suspecting I have it as well. So maybe I'm the one looking through a tiny hole in a piece of paper and only seeing that the dishes aren't done. Maybe I'm the one that's NOT capable of leaving this alone.

Anyway, I really don't want to argue about this anymore.

Fuzzy12
01-08-15, 09:18 AM
I know you don't want to discuss this anymore so please accept my apologies for posting again anyway.

I think, the problem might be that you are misunderstanding a few very fundamental things about ADHD.

I wasn't going to post anymore on this thread but I wanted to report last night I went and checked the kitchen after DD had done the dishes.

Amazingly the dishes were all done and nothing was missed. So it appears DD IS able to do the dishes correctly.

ADHD is considered to be not a problem of knowing but of doing. I'm pretty sure that your DD knows perfectly well how to do the dishes but that doesn't mean that she can actually do them perfectly ALL or even most of the time. It's not her ability to do dishes that is impaired and I guess when the conditions are perfect then she can do them as well as anyone else. What is impaired is to do the dishes perfectly irrespective of what her current condition is. By condition, I mean, for instance, motivation, stress levels, interest, presence of distractions, her current frame of mind, etc.

It's like with reading for me. I can read perfectly well and if something is extremely interesting or if I'm highly motivated then I will be able to pay attention to the task of reading. If it isn't I will struggle with reading though the problem is not my reading skill but applying that skill. This means that MOST of the time I struggle reading long texts.

I told her she did a great job. I told her I know she isn't perfect, and she may not always do the dishes without missing anything, but she is a smart, capable girl and she should be able to do the dishes right MOST of the time.

It's good you were so encouraging but I really believe that you need to let go of any notions of SHOULD. It would be great if she could do the dishes right MOST of the time but obviously she can't, irrespective of if she should or not.

People keep asking is there something else she could do. No, there isn't. There are only two household tasks that need to be done on a daily basis - cooking meals and doing the dishes. Maybe one day, when she learns how she can cook dinner and I'll do the dishes instead. But in the meantime, this is the only daily task she has to do to contribute to the running of the household.

Could you split up each task? So it seems like she does a decent job with the dishes but misses out on the finishing touches. How about she does whatever she can with the dishes and then YOU or your younger daughter do the things that she has missed. If this means that your workload is too much then maybe she can help you out partly with cooking, e.g. by chopping vegetables or something like that.

Yes, I have fibromyalgia. I might call in sick once in a while, but MOST of the time, I drag my butt in to work and do my job. I also do things to keep the pain manageable - I exercise, do yoga and take medication.

Yes, my DD has ADHD. But she should be ale to do something right MOST of the time. And she has to do things so she is able to do what she needs to do - take medication and use strategies and routines.

She is able to do SOME things right most of the time, isn't she? Like her homework.

I don't know much about fibromyalgia, except that it causes pain and fatigue. I think though, there is a fundamental difference between ADHD and other medical conditions. With ADHD the problem is that your ability to do the things that might help with the core symptoms is impaired as well. You might be able to motivate yourself to drag your butt to work or to do the things that help you like exercise but your daughter might not be since her ability to self generate motivation is impaired.

And she has to do things so she is able to do what she needs to do - take medication and use strategies and routines.

Yup, that's what she has to do but the fact that she has to do it has got nothing to do with whether she can do it or not.

I can imagine how frustrating it is. Please believe me I can. I can see the frustration and the unhappiness in my husband that is caused by me being so non-functional. For instance, he would like me to take more responsibility but I really struggle with that. Should a spouse be pulling their weight in a marriage? Of course, they should. Is it fair on him to have the shoulder all the responsibility? Of course, it's not. The unfortunate truth though is that if he stays with me most probably he will always bear more than his fair share of work and responsibility. He shouldn't have to but that's how it is.

Of course, my husband could always leave (and he might). You can't and that is frustrating and sad and unfair but, and I'm sorry to say it so bluntly, you need to accept that your daughter is disabled.

Little Missy
01-08-15, 09:20 AM
:goodpost: yes, yes, YES!!!

VeryTired
01-08-15, 09:32 AM
Guys--

I am a little surprised that most of the feedback Amber has been getting is about how she needs to learn about ADHD. Sure, all of us who live with someone who has ADHD need to learn. But aren't there some other parents of kids with ADHD who can weigh in with their experiences and their success strategies for situations like this?

Also, I don't want to offend anyone, but as I read along, I find myself thinking that doing the dishes after dinner is something any adult should be able to do, and teenage is the time for practicing to build adult skills. Clean up is a necessary life skill. I don't see this as Amber imposing her needs on her daughter and failing to understand her daughter's impairment. I see it as the daughter needs to be able to master this skill, and others like it. 16 years old, even with ADHD, seems to me plenty old enough to learn how to manage even a task that's difficult or unappealing. I get it that Amber's daughter probably finds this WAY harder than another 16 year old might. Of course. But, she needs to live in the world, and she's old enough to start learning coping skills to help herself navigate those things which are hard for her.

Also, Amber has explained very clearly that her her original post was a "rant." That means she is blowing off steam, and expressing herself very forcefully here in a way she doesn't in her real life. It feels a little harsh to me if her need to release those feelings isn't met with support for the feelings. Some people who have posted in this thread have seemed less interested in engaging with her frustration than in critiquing her point of view.

I have been so fortunate here at the Forums, to receive sympathy and support even when I have been expressing intense frustration with my partner who has ADHD--for me that has been amazingly validating and helpful. I cherish it. But it looks to me as though some responders to Amber's post aren't seeing her point of view as much as they are imagining her daughter's.

Stevuke79
01-08-15, 09:46 AM
They done let me rep the post VT, but awesome post!

Fuzzy12
01-08-15, 11:01 AM
Guys--

I am a little surprised that most of the feedback Amber has been getting is about how she needs to learn about ADHD. Sure, all of us who live with someone who has ADHD need to learn. But aren't there some other parents of kids with ADHD who can weigh in with their experiences and their success strategies for situations like this?

I'm really sorry if I have been too critical, not very supportive and have been banging on too much about understanding ADHD. I guess, I am biased, and find it easier to see the daughter's side because I have been in that situation way too often.

I think, we have mentioned some strategies as well but as Amber told us in later posts some of them are not feasible or she's tried them already like making a check list of all things that are involved in doing the dishes.

You are right though and after this post (! ;) ) I'll stop banging on about understanding and attitude and post some strategies if I can come up with any. Hopefully others will have some useful tricks and tips.

Also, I don't want to offend anyone, but as I read along, I find myself thinking that doing the dishes after dinner is something any adult should be able to do, and teenage is the time for practicing to build adult skills. Clean up is a necessary life skill. I don't see this as Amber imposing her needs on her daughter and failing to understand her daughter's impairment. I see it as the daughter needs to be able to master this skill, and others like it. 16 years old, even with ADHD, seems to me plenty old enough to learn how to manage even a task that's difficult or unappealing. I get it that Amber's daughter probably finds this WAY harder than another 16 year old might. Of course. But, she needs to live in the world, and she's old enough to start learning coping skills to help herself navigate those things which are hard for her.


I don't think the problem is with her not knowing how to do or not doing the dishes. She can do them and she does do them but she just doesn't do them well enough. I do think, it's important to teach your kids these practical skills (and the need for them) but it seems to me like her daughter at the moment has reached a plateau and is unlikely to improve (unless with the help of one or more strategies). If I understand correctly, her daughter is managing and more importantly, willing to do an unappealing and difficult task but she just doesn't manage to do it very well. It also seems to me that this is a huge area of contention and a constant source of frustration for Amber and maybe even for her daughter and I'm not sure if it's worth it.

I think you can argue if being able to do the dishes is an absolutely necessary life skill and especially if being able to do them to a high standard is necessary. She can probably do them well enough to not cause a safety and health hazard and I suspect that if she lived on her own and had to do a better job so it doesn't become a health hazard, she probably would. Also, if she lived on her own, she might find a way to simplify or minimise utilising dishes or some other way around it. I've found that I can often find solutions, which are perfectly workable and satisfactory but require a bit of adjustment and compromise from others.

For instance, a big bone of contention in my marriage is that I can't do the finances or any banking stuff. Well, if I lived on my own I'd just have one current account and I think, I could manage that but my husband (or parents) wants me to have all kinds of accounts to optimise our finances and I just can't handle those so he has to. I don't think his demand is unreasonable since of course it's in his interest as well that I save or don't waste money but if I was on my own, I would just take the financial hit for the sake of making things easier (and therefore manageable and less stressful for me).


Also, Amber has explained very clearly that her her original post was a "rant." That means she is blowing off steam, and expressing herself very forcefully here in a way she doesn't in her real life. It feels a little harsh to me if her need to release those feelings isn't met with support for the feelings. Some people who have posted in this thread have seemed less interested in engaging with her frustration than in critiquing her point of view.

I really am sorry about this. I realise it's a rant thread and Amber has clearly said that she doesn't talk to her daughter in this way. I agree that she should be able to vent and rant freely.

I don't mind the venting but to me her vents do show that if she changed her expectations a bit it would make things easier for both of them.

tripleE
01-08-15, 11:17 AM
Hey Amber - as a parent of a 12 y/o with ADHD I've felt the same as you on some bad days. I'm willing to bet other parents have read and nodded their heads as well. It can be frustrating at times. And she's not even 16 - which is a pretty frustrating and crazy age in and of itself.

I hope this doesn't come off as arrogant or anything - I don't mean to - but we had some great success prior to the holidays this year and I wanted to share as it might be useful to the issue of doing the dishes/helping around the house (and as to whether this is a reasonable expectation for a 16 y/o with ADHD - which personally, I think it is).

So, for the two weeks that I was chained to my desk before the holidays and hubby was on night shift, my 12 y/o DD with ADHD did this:

-OFTEN made dinner and cleaned the entire kitchen afterwards, including washing the dishes
-many times cleaned all the bathrooms
-many times babysat her 6 y/o brother when I needed to be out for a christmas function or christmas shopping

and she did it all well enough, with no complaints

Reasons why this worked:

1. I paid her. She was saving to pay for half of the IPad mini she wanted for Christmas. She got $2 for making dinner, $2 for cleaning the kitchen, $1/bathroom and $3/hour for babysitting (in other words, she was motivated) (and yes, in other words we did, in effect, pay for her 1/2 ourselves - but it was worth it. lol)

2. I don't expect her to be at my level but I do set the standards. My kitchen is cleaner when I do it, but it's good enough when she does it. Once or twice she had to re-do the bathrooms - no biggie - if she left streaks all over the counters and mirrors then she did them again. Dinners were pretty basic.

3. I break the tasks down for her once or twice at first and she gets huge praise when she does it right (I really appreciated it actually - she helped out big time). Bathrooms - she was rushing - so we chatted that this was a typical ADHD thing and if she slows down she'll probably do them right the first time.


I highly recommend Dizfriz's corner - it's in the stickies at the top of this forum (sorry I don't know how to link it). I have learned my most successful strategies from there.


I have frustrating days (don't even ask about the banana incident blowout the other day!) and DD is definitely uneven - some days great some days it's like "where did that other kid go??"

We have always offered $ for chores and she has never been interested until the Ipod savings blitz. I don't expect that level of household chores to continue, but at least she has some new skills and that will make it easy for us to ask her to use them from time to time.

She does help with other things regularly (unloads the dishwasher daily and does her own laundry) and that's accomplished through routine and reminders.

Also when she helps with chores - it's not really a request - it's like "we all need to work together and this is what I need from you".

I share your worry - they will need these skills. I feel like I need to have expectations - I don't want to say "she has ADHD so she can't be expected to learn how to do these dishes". I feel like that would disable her more than anything else. Learn differently - yes. Need support from time to time - yes. Allow for mistakes - yes.

Anyway - I can only imagine how much more difficult this is with an older child, being a single parent and having fibromayalgia - sounds damn near impossible to me. Kudos for getting this far and I am completely understanding your rant.



ETA - also for my DD, and for my 16 y/o niece when she lived with me (who has FASD and loved doing the dishes, btw, lol) - it made a big difference when I told them how much they were helping me, how much it helps when they do whatever chore, how much I appreciate it, etc. That type of praise mixed with gratitude seems to be a motivator as well. (Maybe to them it seemed like I really needed some help. Which was probably true. lol)

Sorry for the long post!!

Fortune
01-08-15, 11:34 AM
Edit: Retracted due to questions being answered in later posts, making this irrelevant.

Stevuke79
01-08-15, 11:42 AM
I want to write more on this thread later, but I what I think is really important here is to understand that parenthood is an agony that only a parent truly understands. Parenthood isn't really agony, but it's fear, sense of failure, humiliation, inadequacy, being a horrible person, rejection, breaking what you can never fix, losing what is most important to you, .. but mostly fear. Fear of a failure that you could never bear.

I'm not saying that non-parents shouldn't share their thoughts and feelings. I think both parents and non parents have contributed very valuable things to this thread.

I just want to suggest how we might think about this. They say that men will never understand the pain of childbirth, and that even kidney stones aren't even close. And I'm not saying that parent hood is as painful as childbirth (because how would I know?), ..

But I'm saying that I can relate to what they say about childbirth when I think about parenthood. That until you experience it, the agony (or in the case of parenthood, 'fear') is simply beyond all comprehension.

Fortune
01-08-15, 11:57 AM
Stevuke, I don't really believe that as an argument. You don't know what other people have been through or what they've done. The last time someone told me this was over a truly incendiary topic that - if you want to know - I will explain in PM, and that has made me wary of this argument.

amber3902,

Something I would suggest is this: Have immediate rewards for your daughter when she gets the kitchen done right. Dr. Barkley has suggested this kind of system, since delayed rewards and punishments do not carry very much weight with ADHD children. Your daughter might not easily connect her allowance to getting the kitchen done right, but if she does and you immediately give her something that shows right then that she's done a good job, she might be able to summon more motivation and care to get it right every night.

I don't mean giving her money each time. But something immediate.

VeryTired
01-08-15, 11:57 AM
Jumping back in here and now directing this primarily to Fuzzy--

I am so interested by what you said for a reason that goes in a slightly different direction than that of the beginning of this discussion. Your example of your banking preferences vs your husband's: that seems to me like exactly the kind of negotiation that Amber's daughter needs to learn to be capable of by the time she is an adult and has a partner.

If you lived alone, you could have just the single account and that would be your choice. But you'd still have to get your paychecks deposited regularly and you'd still have to remember not to spend more money than you actually have. So there's:
* choice about how to set a standard that is good enough for you alone
* negotiation when you live with others and have to make choices in collaboration with them
* the question of certain minimum levels of achievement that are necessary for everyone and anyone.

Amber's daughter lives in a family, not alone, so she doesn't get to make dishwashing choices that are good enough for herself alone--that's like you following your husband's banking preference. She has to do the job with a certain amount of collaboration with her family who have standards of their own.

Also, there really is a certain level of effectiveness that anyone ought to learn to attain for a task like dishwashing and kitchen cleanup, whether alone or in a family context. With the single bank account you'd have if you lived alone, you still have to keep a positive balance. With kitchen clean up, even if Amber's daughter lived alone, she needs to build the skills of scanning all counters to look for forgotten items, getting every dish clean enough to meet health requirements, etc.

For Amber's daughter, the issue should be not whether she can do a different chore than the dishes?, but how can she learn strategies from this challenging task that she can use everywhere in her life when faced with challenges? How can she figure out her own best way of compensating for the difficulties ADHD poses for her in kitchen clean up?

The checklist Amber made her doesn't help. Would going really, really slow and listening to music while she does it help? developing a certain order in which it is always done, so she just has to follow a sequence? Making a game out of it and doing it in interesting new ways each night? I'm sure there are other and better ideas, but she needs to find them or be given them. And she needs to understand that sometimes people with ADHD have hard challenges handling basic life things that are way easier for other people--but they can certainly succeed at these if they recognize the effort it will take and the need to find workable solutions.

I'm sorry this is getting long but one thing more: Fuzzy, what you wrote reminds me of a situation I have with my partner all the time. He does a task, and I see that it is incompletely done or there is some problem with it. No matter how tactfully or gently I tell him about what's not done right, he becomes enraged and demands to know why I think I am always right. It gets ugly.

I have come to think that our biggest difference is that he believes that if he tries to do something, or puts time into it, that is the same as successfully completing it, and so that's all that's required of him. I understand that he can't always get things done completely the first time, and that this stuff is genuinely way harder for him than for me. But his job is to clean the bathroom and mine is to clean the kitchen. I get the kitchen clean enough to match both our standards of safety, and to meet general norms for kitchen cleanliness. Whereas the bathroom often features one thing beautifully cleaned and polished, and the rest ignored. He actually once told me the entire shower needed to be re-tiled because it was dangerously mildewed--whereas it just had a lot of soap scum accumulated in the grout because he simply will not clean the tiles each week, and over a year it had gotten pretty yucky. When I insisted that rather than spend thousands of dollars we don't have to solve the imaginary problem he saw, he should simply use a strong cleanser and a lot of elbow grease, suddenly the shower was sparkling clean and just fine.

So it seems to me that my non-ADHD view of what makes a clean bathroom is a comprehensive checklist: toilet scrubbed, sink washed, mirror polished, etc., etc. Whereas my partner's view seems to be something like a question: "did I spend more time than I felt like doing something boring in the bathroom on cleaning day? if yes, then therefore the bathroom must now be clean." And I think I am hearing something like this in the argument you are making to Amber, and in some of what other people have said here.

I wonder what everyone thinks about that--is it possible that the ADHD/non-ADHD divide has to do with a sense of what task completion actually means?

Fuzzy12
01-08-15, 01:33 PM
I want to write more on this thread later, but I what I think is really important here is to understand that parenthood is an agony that only a parent truly understands. Parenthood isn't really agony, but it's fear, sense of failure, humiliation, inadequacy, being a horrible person, rejection, breaking what you can never fix, losing what is most important to you, .. but mostly fear. Fear of a failure that you could never bear.

I'm not saying that non-parents shouldn't share their thoughts and feelings. I think both parents and non parents have contributed very valuable things to this thread.

I just want to suggest how we might think about this. They say that men will never understand the pain of childbirth, and that even kidney stones aren't even close. And I'm not saying that parent hood is as painful as childbirth (because how would I know?), ..

But I'm saying that I can relate to what they say about childbirth when I think about parenthood. That until you experience it, the agony (or in the case of parenthood, 'fear') is simply beyond all comprehension.

I don't think that anyone has said that parenting is easy or that Amber's situation isn't very difficult, painful or frustrating or that she doesn't have the right to vent. It's not about criticising or trivialising her (at least, I haven't meant to do that but again I'm sorry if it came across that way) but even in difficult, painful or frustrating situations, shouldn't we be able to mention what we think might make the situation slightly less difficult, painful or frustrating?:(

VTired. Interesting post. I'll try to reply tomorrow.

Lunacie
01-08-15, 02:08 PM
(((((FUZZY))))) :thankyou: :goodpost: :yes:

I can't give you rep points right now, but wish I could for every post you've written in this thread.

Lunacie
01-08-15, 02:20 PM
I just want her to f-cking DO THE DISHES CORRECTLY for ONCE in her life!! I just want to wake up in the morning, go in the kitchen and not find something she didn't put away.


I wasn't going to post anymore on this thread but I wanted to report last night I went and checked the kitchen after DD had done the dishes.

Amazingly the dishes were all done and nothing was missed. So it appears DD IS able to do the dishes correctly.

I told her she did a great job. I told her I know she isn't perfect, and she may not always do the dishes without missing anything, but she is a smart, capable girl and she should be able to do the dishes right MOST of the time.

.

You got what you wanted. :yes:

But now you want even more. :umm1:

Instead of doing the dishes correctly ONCE,
now you have proof that she can do it
and you expect her to do it MOST of the time.

This is what I've lived with all my life until a few years ago.
Nothing was ever ENOUGH.
It just raised the bar I was expected to meet.
If I proved I could do something well once,
then I was considered a huge failure
if there was a time when I didn't do it well.

And there were plenty of times when I didn't succeed.
It didn't make any sense to me any more than it did to others,
why couldn't I do things just as well every single time I did them?


It's like having an old computer. Sometimes it works fine
and pulls up the file you want or connects with the internet quickly.
Sometimes it doesn't work so well.
And it's so frustrating you want to pick it up and chuck it out the window.

But it's not the fault of the computer.
It's not doing it deliberately just to annoy you.

ADHD is not a choice you make,
like dragging yourself to work even when you feel like crap.
(I have fibromyalgia too and some days I fall into bed when I get home from work)

Some days my brain (human computer) works,
and some days it doesn't.
I can't choose to make it work.
I sure wish I could. :(

zette93
01-08-15, 07:39 PM
I think in most single-parent families the kids (especially teenagers) often are forced by circumstance to become more independent and responsible than kids in two-parent families in things like household maintenance. It's an extra stress for you that your daughter isn't able to do as much as you really need from her as well as you need it to be done.

There are only two household tasks that need to be done on a daily basis - cooking meals and doing the dishes. Maybe one day, when she learns how she can cook dinner and I'll do the dishes instead.

Funny to see this -- I was going to recommend that you teach her how to cook, starting with very basic dishes, and you take over the cleanup! It's a life skill she will definitely need someday, and it may turn out that she's better at cooking than cleanup.

RobboW
01-08-15, 08:57 PM
Someone else mentioned about ADHD being heredity. I am going to get tested for ADHD myself because the more I'm learning about it the more I'm suspecting I have it as well. So maybe I'm the one looking through a tiny hole in a piece of paper and only seeing that the dishes aren't done. Maybe I'm the one that's NOT capable of leaving this alone.



What was hubby like? I didn't necesarily mean you are ADD, but it came from somewhere genetically linked, it's not something you catch. This also means, it's not her fault, it was passed down and SHE has to suffer it all her life.

Dad passed it to me, I don't blame him or dislike him for that. I wouldn't be me if Mum and Dad didn't have me. It just is.

Our second youngest exhibits the strongest ADHD traits of all our children on a daily basis. She's often un-mindful of right or wrong, manners, hygiene, other peoples feelings, she blurts out all sorts of crap and creates a lot of friction with her siblings, plus is very dramatic. That is much harder to deal with than her older sister's stuff like dishes, bedroom, vacancy and daydreaming etc.

It's a lottery.

Our youngest is very anxious and this is very hard. She comes off as rude, ungrateful and a right little miss. She flies off the handle instantly. What a temper! I'm noticing there's OCD there too.

Our eldest is our only son. He is mild compared to our girls but I see some things in him too. Unorganised, easily overwhelmed, unmotivated, tunes out, but he's pretty mild mannered luckily.

One thing we find is that other people percieve our children as well mannered, nice kids. It's at home they relax things and be ungaurded. I prefer that to other kids who are just naturally naughty and know what they are doing. We get complimented from other parents and teachers at school by their good behaviour etc, so I feel we are doing a fair job of parenting, despite the hurdle of ADHD. There could be worse things to deal with and being able to be a decent person when out and about means they are taking things in, even if we think they can be less than ideal at home. I see other kids the same ages who are publically rude, destructive and self centred and may end up doing drugs, in jail, thugs etc etc.

So, my take on it is that at least my children are not the type contributing to the reasons I left the city. They contribute at school events, even extra curricular things and take on prefect type roles. ADHD is a sometimes debilatating thing personally, but you can still live a good life, just have to know what is important and be able to look at the big picture. I need to post these things in this forum to remind myself as I find life hard living with ADD.

None of us are diagnosed or medicated, but I know it is our family "thing". Both my brothers are also affected. Older brother is much like me, younger brother also bipolar (only one diagnosed anything), dad has issues, ADD maybe something a little further up the disrder spectrum, not sure. I don't know much about his family but my uncle was odd.....

BellaVita
01-08-15, 11:04 PM
Guys--

I am a little surprised that most of the feedback Amber has been getting is about how she needs to learn about ADHD.

You're surprised about that, on an ADHD support forum?

Also, I don't want to offend anyone, but as I read along, I find myself thinking that doing the dishes after dinner is something any adult should be able to do, and teenage is the time for practicing to build adult skills.

I don't mean to offend you, but you are wrong. Doing dishes isn't a "skill" that we need to learn to be adults. That's the whole point - ADHD can and WILL disable someone to the point of not being able to do things - and honestly that's why there's such thing as a dishwasher.

Clean up is a necessary life skill.

Amber has already stated her daughter knows how to do the dishes, so that's obviously not the issue.

The issue is A.D.H.D.

I don't see this as Amber imposing her needs on her daughter and failing to understand her daughter's impairment. I see it as the daughter needs to be able to master this skill, and others like it.

Actually, that's exactly what she's doing. And as already mentioned, Amber's daughter knows how to do the dishes well. It's ADHD, something out of her control, that is causing the issues.

But, she needs to live in the world, and she's old enough to start learning coping skills to help herself navigate those things which are hard for her.

There are more important things in the world than doing dishes.

Also, Amber has explained very clearly that her her original post was a "rant." That means she is blowing off steam, and expressing herself very forcefully here in a way she doesn't in her real life. It feels a little harsh to me if her need to release those feelings isn't met with support for the feelings.

We don't have to agree with her, I haven't seen anyone respond to her worse than what Amber herself wrote in her rant.

But it looks to me as though some responders to Amber's post aren't seeing her point of view as much as they are imagining her daughter's.

Again, this is an ADHD support forum - of course we are going to relate more to her daughter. We've been in her daughter's shoes. Oh, and we are very much seeing her point of view, you are mistaken to think that we aren't and what you're actually thinking is that "agreeing with Amber" and "seeing things from her point of view" are the same things.

dvdnvwls
01-08-15, 11:24 PM
From Amber's point of view, the dishes do need to get done. No one can or should argue against that.

However, her apparent demand that someone who's obviously incapable of the job not only do it but be the sole designated person to do that job, is not really deserving of serious consideration.

VeryTired
01-09-15, 12:21 AM
Bella,

I certainly respect your opinions, and I think I do understand what you are saying, but it look like we disagree on a few things about this thread.

I was surprised at the response Amber got because when I write here about the frustrations I experience with my partner's ADHD, I almost always get responses that I find supportive and enlightening, and I feel understood. I value the thoughtful and sympathetic responses I receive, and am moved that it is frequently the posters who have ADHD who are generously offering me support. But it looked to me as though Amber was not having a similar experience to mine in this thread, because she kept having to explain her point of view repeatedly. I would find that frustrating if I were her. But I can't speak for her, of course.

Also, I am aware of many parents of kids with ADHD using the forums, and I was surprised that Amber wasn't getting more responses from them at first. Of course anyone can have a valid opinion about her situation, but to me if sounded as though she was particularly looking for parent-to-parent counsel.

No one has to agree with anyone here, of course. Please don't think that I was expecting you to have different views than you do. And I certainly wasn't expecting everyone who responded to Amber to agree with Amber.

The big disagreement is, I guess, whether Amber's wish for her daughter to help with clean up is inappropriate given her daughter's ADHD. But as I interpreted her original post ("rant") she was in large part seeking catharsis by venting her emotions. And in my experience, what people tend to want most when they do that is to be heard and acknowledged in their own terms. I wouldn't ever expect to be able to change someone's mind by disagreeing with them when they are "ranting".

I do hear you that the importance of washing dishes, etc is something about which people can hold very different views. And I bet Amber's daughter would agree with much of what you are saying--but she's not here and Amber is. That's why I was trying to focus more on Amber's point of view.

VeryTired
01-09-15, 12:24 AM
dvdnvwls--

I see your point, but it feels odd to me that you (and others) are so so sure that Amber's daughter can't learn/grow/change. She's a teenager! Do we really know for sure that she cannot ever master the kitchen chores? To me it seems a bit early to decide that.

BellaVita
01-09-15, 12:42 AM
I was surprised at the response Amber got because when I write here about the frustrations I experience with my partner's ADHD, I almost always get responses that I find supportive and enlightening, and I feel understood. I value the thoughtful and sympathetic responses I receive, and am moved that it is frequently the posters who have ADHD who are generously offering me support. But it looked to me as though Amber was not having a similar experience to mine in this thread, because she kept having to explain her point of view repeatedly. I would find that frustrating if I were her. But I can't speak for her, of course.

This place is really helpful, I'm glad you've gotten good responses to your threads. However, the situations are two very different situations. For one, you are usually kind in your posts and seeking to understand, and Amber is taking on an attitude that is quite different than that. I know Amber later said that this thread was a rant, but that doesn't mean we should just say that everything she's saying is okay, agree with her, hug her and move on.

You're right, she's not having a similar experience because you two are going through entirely different things - one big difference is you're dealing with an adult and she's dealing with a teenage girl.

Also, I am aware of many parents of kids with ADHD using the forums, and I was surprised that Amber wasn't getting more responses from them at first.

I see what you're saying and I do agree that it's helpful to have views from the parents as well.

No one has to agree with anyone here, of course. Please don't think that I was expecting you to have different views than you do. And I certainly wasn't expecting everyone who responded to Amber to agree with Amber.

I didn't expect that you were wanting me to have different views, and even if you did it wouldn't change them anyway. ;) I'm glad to hear you don't think we should all agree with Amber. I think some people on this thread, although differing views, have provided helpful advice that I suggest Amber looks into.

The big disagreement is, I guess, whether Amber's wish for her daughter to help with clean up is inappropriate given her daughter's ADHD. But as I interpreted her original post ("rant") she was in large part seeking catharsis by venting her emotions. And in my experience, what people tend to want most when they do that is to be heard and acknowledged in their own terms. I wouldn't ever expect to be able to change someone's mind by disagreeing with them when they are "ranting".

There's something about the OP that makes it a different kind of "rant." It's not a rant that everyone can just say "oh you're doing great and yes your daughter is stupid I'm so sorry" - how would that be helpful? Her daughter is in obvious need of help, and agreeing with the OP and not giving advice would be to the daughter's detriment.

And I bet Amber's daughter would agree with much of what you are saying--but she's not here and Amber is.

That's exactly it - SOMEONE needs to stand up for her daughter.

Lunacie
01-09-15, 11:06 AM
Bella,

I certainly respect your opinions, and I think I do understand what you are saying, but it look like we disagree on a few things about this thread.

I was surprised at the response Amber got because when I write here about the frustrations I experience with my partner's ADHD, I almost always get responses that I find supportive and enlightening, and I feel understood. I value the thoughtful and sympathetic responses I receive, and am moved that it is frequently the posters who have ADHD who are generously offering me support. But it looked to me as though Amber was not having a similar experience to mine in this thread, because she kept having to explain her point of view repeatedly. I would find that frustrating if I were her. But I can't speak for her, of course.

Also, I am aware of many parents of kids with ADHD using the forums, and I was surprised that Amber wasn't getting more responses from them at first. Of course anyone can have a valid opinion about her situation, but to me if sounded as though she was particularly looking for parent-to-parent counsel.

No one has to agree with anyone here, of course. Please don't think that I was expecting you to have different views than you do. And I certainly wasn't expecting everyone who responded to Amber to agree with Amber.

The big disagreement is, I guess, whether Amber's wish for her daughter to help with clean up is inappropriate given her daughter's ADHD. But as I interpreted her original post ("rant") she was in large part seeking catharsis by venting her emotions. And in my experience, what people tend to want most when they do that is to be heard and acknowledged in their own terms. I wouldn't ever expect to be able to change someone's mind by disagreeing with them when they are "ranting".

I do hear you that the importance of washing dishes, etc is something about which people can hold very different views. And I bet Amber's daughter would agree with much of what you are saying--but she's not here and Amber is. That's why I was trying to focus more on Amber's point of view.

Addressing the bolded sentences ...

Did you really not find our responses here to be "enlightening?"
I know that's why I was trying to do, to enlighten Amber
to what her daughter may be feeling in this situation.

As I recall, some of the most enlightening responses
to your early threads came from men with ADHD,
who were able to explain from their viewpoint
what your hubby must be feeling.

Actually, many of the responses were written
before Amber made it clear that she was ranting.
At that point I flagged her thread
and asked the mods to add "RANT" to the thread title
to make that clear to those who were just finding the thread.

I might have moderated my responses a little bit
if the thread title or the first post had included the word "rant",
but my underlying response would have been the same ...
her daughter is not stupid, she has a disorder that is beyond her control.

And, as Bella points out, we were trying to focus
on her daughter's point of view,
to help Amber see it from the other viewpoint.
Because she isn't here and we've been where she is now,
with a parent who didn't understand or was unable to relate.
So we can explain from that point of view.

Gramma Dee
01-09-15, 12:50 PM
OMG... I just wrote a whole big note to see if I could help...and the whole thing disappeared. Poured my heart out in it, hit a wrong key, and now it's gone. I am so sorry. I will come back later to try and rewrite it. I am so spent right now, that I can't. I'm so sorry. :( Hang in there though.

Fuzzy12
01-09-15, 02:45 PM
Jumping back in here and now directing this primarily to Fuzzy--

I am so interested by what you said for a reason that goes in a slightly different direction than that of the beginning of this discussion. Your example of your banking preferences vs your husband's: that seems to me like exactly the kind of negotiation that Amber's daughter needs to learn to be capable of by the time she is an adult and has a partner.

If you lived alone, you could have just the single account and that would be your choice. But you'd still have to get your paychecks deposited regularly and you'd still have to remember not to spend more money than you actually have. So there's:
* choice about how to set a standard that is good enough for you alone
* negotiation when you live with others and have to make choices in collaboration with them
* the question of certain minimum levels of achievement that are necessary for everyone and anyone.

Yes, and I can do that. Well, thankfully, my salary gets credited to my account automatically and I almost always use my debit card rather than my credit card. I'd probably also manage to set up direct debits for my utility bills. What I can't do is keep track of more than one account. I not only forget that I have them but I also forget my account login details. So having just one current account would be a standard that is good enough for me.

I agree that making these negotiations when you live others or finding standards that are good enough for you when it doesn't concern others is important but in the case of Amber's daughter it doesn't seem to me as if there is or has been any negotiation.

I wouldn't advocate never giving anyone with ADHD jobs that they find difficult or challenging or giving up immediately when she doesn't do a good job. It's important for her to try at least and to possibly find ways to do difficult tasks well. That is why I think, developing and trialing different strategies is the way to go. Expecting her to do the task well, at the moment, with the current set of strategies that are not working for her, is not reasonable.

Amber's daughter lives in a family, not alone, so she doesn't get to make dishwashing choices that are good enough for herself alone--that's like you following your husband's banking preference. She has to do the job with a certain amount of collaboration with her family who have standards of their own.


Yes, but if she can't then she just can't irrespective of what she ought to do. I'm not saying that she isn't capable of doing the dishes to everyone's satisfaction as she obviously is but she might not be able to do them consistently well enough.

Also, there really is a certain level of effectiveness that anyone ought to learn to attain for a task like dishwashing and kitchen cleanup, whether alone or in a family context. With the single bank account you'd have if you lived alone, you still have to keep a positive balance. With kitchen clean up, even if Amber's daughter lived alone, she needs to build the skills of scanning all counters to look for forgotten items, getting every dish clean enough to meet health requirements, etc.

Well, again, needing to do something isn't always a guarantee that you can do it. I suspect that if Amber's daughter did live along she would probably do tthe dishes at least to a minimum standard. Or she might not and she might struggle just the way others ADHDers struggle with a myriad of things that we really need to do but aren't good at irrespective of how much we try. I can totally understand that any parent would want to avoid that scenario and I don't think that Amber should stop trying to teach her daughter how to be self sufficient but I do think that the expectations need to be a bit more realistic, i.e. the expectation of being able to do the dishes well with the current set of strategies that she is employing.

For Amber's daughter, the issue should be not whether she can do a different chore than the dishes?, but how can she learn strategies from this challenging task that she can use everywhere in her life when faced with challenges? How can she figure out her own best way of compensating for the difficulties ADHD poses for her in kitchen clean up?

I suggested doing a different chore more for Amber's sake, so that she still gets help with chores without having to face daily frustration. By the way giving up on doing a particular task in a particular way is a valid strategy, especially if it's complemented by a work around. In this instance, for example, getting a cleaner (if that's a possibility) or maybe later, when Amber's daughter has to live with someone else dividing the work load so she can do the things that she is good with and her partner/house mate does the things she is not good with. And that is an important skill to learn as well, I think, not just for ADHDers but to everyone: How do you deal with a task that you for whatever reason you are incapable of doing?

For instance, both hubby and me really, really want and NEED our house to be neat and clean. I struggled for years trying to keep it clean enough (i.e. doing my share of cleaning) but I didn't, which led to a lot of frustration for both hubby and me. In fact, in this case, it was hubby who well before me realised that the current solution was just not working and he suggested years ago that we get a cleaner. I refused because I thought that I need to be able to do it myself and that if we got a cleaner I'd end up feeling even more useless. I'm also pretty fussy about how I want things to be done and ironically, I didn't think that a cleaner would be able to live up to my standards. I finally got over my misgivings and gave in and we employed a cleaner. She only does a few hours every fortnight but it has made a world of difference. In this case, just plodding on at any cost and doing something that I was just not capable of doing was not the right strategy. Giving up on doing it myself and employing someone else to do it was the right strategy.

I'm not saying that Amber should get a cleaner. It's just an example of where both hubs and me had to learn to give up on the notion that something as easy and simple as cleaning has to be done by me at any cost.

The checklist Amber made her doesn't help. Would going really, really slow and listening to music while she does it help? developing a certain order in which it is always done, so she just has to follow a sequence? Making a game out of it and doing it in interesting new ways each night? I'm sure there are other and better ideas, but she needs to find them or be given them. And she needs to understand that sometimes people with ADHD have hard challenges handling basic life things that are way easier for other people--but they can certainly succeed at these if they recognize the effort it will take and the need to find workable solutions.

Good ideas and definitely worth trying.

So it seems to me that my non-ADHD view of what makes a clean bathroom is a comprehensive checklist: toilet scrubbed, sink washed, mirror polished, etc., etc. Whereas my partner's view seems to be something like a question: "did I spend more time than I felt like doing something boring in the bathroom on cleaning day? if yes, then therefore the bathroom must now be clean." And I think I am hearing something like this in the argument you are making to Amber, and in some of what other people have said here.

I wonder what everyone thinks about that--is it possible that the ADHD/non-ADHD divide has to do with a sense of what task completion actually means?


I think, in this regard I'm more like you. When it comes to cleaning I have a check list and I feel miserable till I've ticked off every point on that list. Actually, I'm quite rigid in general. I have a tendency to want to do a specific list of things in a specific way and I don't easily change that even when I know that it's not working.

A problem we do have though is that my check list and hubby's check list are different. Mine, for instance, never includes cleaning the windows. My checklist includes a hell lot of other stuff (mainly bathrooms, kitchen and vacuuming), but not the windows. It also includes less of tidying up and more of cleaning.

Anyway, no, I wouldn't consider the bathroom to be clean (or any other task to be satisfactorily) done unless all points on my check list are ticked off. It is very possible though that I might give up (or rather think, I'll get back to it later) when I'm tired or bored but I wouldn't be happy with it.

Stevuke79
01-09-15, 04:39 PM
..It's not about criticising or trivialising her (at least, I haven't meant to do that but again I'm sorry if it came across that way)

I don't think you personally came accross that way.

but even in difficult, painful or frustrating situations, shouldn't we be able to mention what we think might make the situation slightly less difficult, painful or frustrating?:(

I'm not blaming you for misunderstanding me; I actually explicitly said that both parents and not parents are adding valuable things here so as to not be misunderstood. But I understand how it's very easy to hear what I said as invalidating the opinions of non-parents.

I was saying that I think we're misunderstanding what she is actually saying.

I understand why we hear Amber as being very judgmental of her child. I can understand why someone might think she is disappointed in her child.

But I don't think that's what she's saying. Actually, I think she specifically said she didn't feel judgmental or "disappointed" in her child, but there are of course a lot of conflicting feelings here.

I think she's disappointed in herself. I think she's terrified that she doesn't know what to do. And I think some of us whether or not we are having children are not hearing what she's saying. (Amber can correct me if it's actually me who is mistaken)


Nothing that you said bothered me. But what does bother me is when people accuse her of judging her child or of being "unhappy" or "unsatisfied" with her child. I don't hear that at all. Some parents are like that - but I don't hear that from Amber.

And she has shared things that she has said and done that she is regretful of. And we're criticizing her for those very things. I don't think we're doing it to be mean - I think we think she is actually upset with her child and defending her actions. I understand why that's what some of us hear, but that's not what I'm hearing. And if I actually am right, then I also think that not being a parent can make it even harder to hear what she's saying. (I may be wrong, it's been known to happen.)

I would never invalidate what anyone has to contribute.

I simply wanted to add something that specifically related to a misunderstanding that I think exists. And because I'm adding another way to interpret what she's saying, I understand why that necessarily sounds invalidating. But actually, I'm disagreeing (different from invalidating) with a specific point.


You got what you wanted. :yes:

But now you want even more. :umm1:

Instead of doing the dishes correctly ONCE,
now you have proof that she can do it
and you expect her to do it MOST of the time.

IMO, that's actually the DEFINITION of GOOD PARENTING. And especially with a child who has ADHD.

It's not about that one dish. If it was about that one dish, Amber would washing the ******* dish herself. A parent does not ask her child to wash the dishes because she wants them clean. A parent asks her child to wash the dishes DESPITE wanting the dishes clean. I can tell you from personal experience, when "clean" and "my sanity and happiness" are the highest priorities, I clean myself. TRUST ME, it's EASIER and BETTER for ME that way. But most of the time I ask my daughter to clean, which is a 100% SELFLESS ACT.

Back to Amber: I would have the exact same reaction as Amber. This is good - how did that happen? How can we make it happen again? And where is the lesson for my daughter, and how can I teach her to use this to make her life better? I understand what some people think Amber was saying, ... that she's still not satisfied. But IMO, I'm hearing something different.

We all need to try things. We need to learn to keep our self esteem in tact even when we fail. And when we succeed, it's not about that ONE success. It's an opportunity to see that something worked and trying to figure out what that was.

And since this kid has ADHD, this is especially important. She's going to have to figure out what works and what doesn't. And when it does, she's going to need to find WHAT she did RIGHT. Which will of course involve additional instances of failures. Being able to handle that is part of life.

In case someone doesn't know this, EVEN NT's have to learn to keep their ego in tact even after they fail. I know VT, our resident NT, will back me up on that. This is how EVERYONE lives and grows. You keep getting better.
And this is what I think a parent has to teach their child.

RobboW
01-09-15, 06:32 PM
OMG... I just wrote a whole big note to see if I could help...and the whole thing disappeared. Poured my heart out in it, hit a wrong key, and now it's gone. I am so sorry. I will come back later to try and rewrite it. I am so spent right now, that I can't. I'm so sorry. :( Hang in there though.

Just a tip for this. Write it out in a word processor then copy paste into a new post :-)

VeryTired
01-10-15, 12:12 AM
I think Stevuke is a Buddha of enlightenment.

I don't know when I have ever seen a person more deftly handle a complicated, emotional contentious issue. Very impressive. Look at how respectful he is of everyone's views, how appreciative of all disagreements, and how extremely insightful into experience sloth similar to and different from his own! Way to go, Stevuke!

This thread has had a bunch of ups and downs and maybe hasn't always been comfortable for everyone, but I think this post from Steve takes it to a while new level now, and reminds me for the zillionth time of his these Forums are an amazing opportunity for people to come together and share wisdom and learn from each other in very positive ways.

dvdnvwls
01-10-15, 12:48 AM
dvdnvwls--

I see your point, but it feels odd to me that you (and others) are so so sure that Amber's daughter can't learn/grow/change. She's a teenager! Do we really know for sure that she cannot ever master the kitchen chores? To me it seems a bit early to decide that.

Even I wouldn't be so hasty as to say not ever. :)

But it's clear that the 16-yr-old daughter has been beating her head against the wall for quite some time with this particular task. She is not going to suddenly have a kitchen-sink epiphany tomorrow night. She might never - I hope she does though. No one (well, no one I can think of) would choose to be bad at this. It's not a fun thing to be "broken" at; there are green things growing in my kitchen, and they're not houseplants, and I'm not proud or happy or accepting of that, but I'm apparently not at liberty to choose.

Maybe try again in a month or two? I don't know what the timeline should look like, other than the infamous ADHD designation "not now".

RobboW
01-10-15, 02:07 AM
Our 16 year old daughter thinks clearing up is putting used mugs and dishes in the sink with water in them. No sign of that changing. I think she will only change when she has to. Basically when she has left home. I don't stress about it anymore. There are bigger issues to tackle in life.

dvdnvwls
01-10-15, 04:04 AM
You got what you wanted. :yes:

But now you want even more. :umm1:

Instead of doing the dishes correctly ONCE,
now you have proof that she can do it
and you expect her to do it MOST of the time.




IMO, that's actually the DEFINITION of GOOD PARENTING. And especially with a child who has ADHD.

Steve...

Imagine if one day a friend of yours was having a heart attack in a shopping mall, and under extreme pressure and agonizing effort you found his car in the parking lot so you could get him to the hospital.

And imagine that somehow the Employment Gods heard of your amazing navigational success, and magically (and permanently!) turned you into a bicycle courier in China, where every week you were sent to a new district or a new city.

There may not be such a thing as "can't", but there certainly is such a thing as "can't reasonably". The positive-(un)thinking crowd can crow all they like; some people really can't reasonably do certain things. Maybe at another time in her life, maybe even not so far off, Amber's daughter will find that cleaning up the kitchen becomes reasonably doable for her. Until then, constantly prodding her, complaining when she gets it wrong (again!), and praising her occasional desperate effort to please, has zero chance of success (if by success is meant something more important than "the dishes got clean somehow").

dvdnvwls
01-10-15, 07:07 AM
We all need to try things. We need to learn to keep our self esteem in tact even when we fail. And when we succeed, it's not about that ONE success. It's an opportunity to see that something worked and trying to figure out what that was.

And since this kid has ADHD, this is especially important. She's going to have to figure out what works and what doesn't. And when it does, she's going to need to find WHAT she did RIGHT. Which will of course involve additional instances of failures. Being able to handle that is part of life.

In case someone doesn't know this, EVEN NT's have to learn to keep their ego in tact even after they fail. I know VT, our resident NT, will back me up on that. This is how EVERYONE lives and grows. You keep getting better.
And this is what I think a parent has to teach their child.

This is poor logic.

Example: I can't swim. If you hold me underwater because I need to grow and must learn to handle things and keep my ego intact in the process, it's not going to do me a whole lot of good.

The daughter is handling the situation intelligently in the best way she can, trying to pick her battles, knowing that she will waste countless hours and be uncontrollably overwhelmed if she attempts to bring the kitchen up to mom-approved standards every night. The same way I don't dive into the ocean or fill out my own tax return. The same way you don't become a forest ranger or drive a taxi in an unfamiliar city. It's no more than common sense to see that someone who is going to be disproportionately and very badly affected by doing (or consistently repeating) a certain task should avoid doing that task.

I know that in real life you are a better parent than this. Please consider the actual situation that your comments are referring to, and not just your general (and fundamentally flawed) concept that if a task exists then every person is inherently able to do that task.

Fortune
01-10-15, 07:14 AM
I think Stevuke is a Buddha of enlightenment.

I don't know when I have ever seen a person more deftly handle a complicated, emotional contentious issue. Very impressive. Look at how respectful he is of everyone's views, how appreciative of all disagreements, and how extremely insightful into experience sloth similar to and different from his own! Way to go, Stevuke!

Actually, I don't think he has been. He's essentially stated that the state of parenthood is a magical transformation that no one who is not a parent can relate to, and adding that non-parents still have something to contribute doesn't mitigate the sheer wrongness of his central argument.

I don't think he's just wrong, I think he's dangerously wrong. I've known too many parents to consider that they have any innate instincts about what's best for their children, or that being a parent is completely incomprehensible to non-parents. This is would be unlike every other possible human experience if it were true, which it is not. Never mind people who are genuinely bad at parenting, whose children may need to be protected from their own parents. My niece claimed she had a special supernatural bond with her daughter and could tell when she was sick - and insisted she wasn't despite persistent cough, fever and ensuing meltdowns.

Parenting ain't magical, and parents don't have special unique ways to care for children that no one else could ever understand without becoming a parent themselves. Parents are human and are just as given to failings as the rest of us. No pedestals, please.

I tried to disagree earlier in the thread but my disagreement was barely acknowledged.

dvdnvwls
01-10-15, 08:08 AM
One thing that parents do magically share is the frustration of being a parent in difficult situations. There are times when that shared knowledge can bring parents together emotionally. However, it does nothing for their parenting skills or their judgment, except so far as it teaches them not to judge other parents over things that don't matter.

In this particular situation it turns out (unfortunately for one girl) that those not burdened by that simmering frustration seem in general to be the ones most capable of comprehending what's going on, and the frustrated parents are in general triggered in such a way that they seem to lose sight of the facts.

dvdnvwls
01-10-15, 08:14 AM
I think Stevuke is a Buddha of enlightenment.

I don't know when I have ever seen a person more deftly handle a complicated, emotional contentious issue. Very impressive. Look at how respectful he is of everyone's views, how appreciative of all disagreements, and how extremely insightful into experience sloth similar to and different from his own! Way to go, Stevuke!

This thread has had a bunch of ups and downs and maybe hasn't always been comfortable for everyone, but I think this post from Steve takes it to a while new level now, and reminds me for the zillionth time of his these Forums are an amazing opportunity for people to come together and share wisdom and learn from each other in very positive ways.

I am usually a good judge of who's joking and who's not, but I'm not able to decide for myself whether this post is intended as biting sarcasm or sincere appreciation.

VeryTired
01-10-15, 10:17 AM
I was totally sincere in what I said about Stevuke being Buddha-like--I am seldom sarcastic in general and here I meant exactly what I said. I see why others might differ with my assessment, though. I always take extremely seriously what dvdnvwls says, and he has argued his point of view on this with his customary clarity and intelligence--others have made similar points, very well, also. But I stand by what I said. I admire how thoughtfully Stevuke clarified the complexity of how we have all been responding here.

This thread is illuminating because it really IS about disagreements, whereas many other threads here that have seemed to be full of disagreement eventually resolve to being misunderstanding, not actual disagreement. Not this one, though. People readily do disagree. That's interesting, and important.

A lot of smart thoughtful people here who have great insight into themselves, life and ADHD are suggesting that they know what Amber's daughter's experience is. Maybe they're right, maybe they're not. We can't actually know because Amber's daughter isn't part of the conversation to tell us what she feels. I have been more interested in Amber's own experience, however--not because I only care about the non-ADHD person's experience of people with ADHD, not at all--but because Amber is the one who started the thread and participated in the conversation.

What interested me most about this thread initially was the question of Amber's situation and Amber's feelings. But other people whom I respect very much have taken the position that the real issue is Amber's daughter's experience, and so are trying to help Amber to understand her daughter based on their own experiences. I think what we each decide is important and resonant in the discussion is highly personal, intuitive and emotional. We respond at that pre-conecious level instantly as we read the OP, then we began to use our conscious and rational minds to shape arguments and responses. Because the topic here was one that elicited powerful emotional response from many of us, we were stimulated to follow those responses in very different directions.

dvdnvwls
01-10-15, 02:59 PM
In my opinion the thread is not about the experience of one person or the other but about the way this situation has led Amber to grossly misjudge her expectations of her daughter, and the daughter's inability (or unwillingness? due to fear? due to anger?) to explain why this expectation is mistaken, in a way that her mother can understand. Not one person or the other but the "interface" between them. (I don't like the sound of that word but I can't think of a better one right now.) It's not uncommon for people with ADHD, perhaps especially teens, to become tired of explaining yet again to a misunderstanding authority why an expectation is unreasonable, or to be so afraid of that authority that they decide it's safer not to speak, or to be frustratingly unable to articulate (even to themselves) exactly what's wrong. I certainly remember, as a teen with un-diagnosed ADHD, being extremely embarrassed at my inadequacy in tasks that I couldn't handle - one of which was exactly this one - and had no acceptable way of telling my mother "I actually can't wash the dishes properly, and I don't know why". It sounds so ridiculous, and it's frustrating to have the experience of being incompetent at a simple job despite being intelligent and generally capable and not physically disabled, and it's frustrating to not have either the vocabulary or the confidence or the freedom to express what's going on.

Lunacie
01-10-15, 03:51 PM
:goodpost:

Not being able to put something into the right words ...
the ones that would actually explain what I'm feeling ...
or how I'm struggling ...

that's something that's been with me my whole life.

It's still difficult for me to do, especially face-to-face
when I need to think quickly.

If I do answer right away, I just blurt something off the top of my head.

If I don't answer right away, my family thinks I'm avoiding answering.
And they know for a fact that I will probably forget to get back to them.


Even something as simple as saying,
"I heard your question, I need some time to think about it,"
isn't that simple for me.

I'm still thinking about the question,
not about explaining that I'd rather think about it.

RobboW
01-10-15, 05:02 PM
I remember primary school and poor handwriting. I was hounded to improve and singled out for help with it, all to no avail. My writing is still as poor today at almost 46. I just lack the fine motor skill to do it neatly. My son is the same but I don't hound him about it. There's other things of more importance I will speak up about.

Lunacie
01-10-15, 05:55 PM
I remember primary school and poor handwriting. I was hounded to improve and singled out for help with it, all to no avail. My writing is still as poor today at almost 46. I just lack the fine motor skill to do it neatly. My son is the same but I don't hound him about it. There's other things of more importance I will speak up about.

Same here. I always felt bad that I couldn't write as pretty as my mom did,
but that's one thing she never made me feel bad about, left that up to the teachers.

I'm a 64 year old grandmother who would probably be a huge disappointment
to the OP in my kitchen cleaning skills.

My adult daughter and grandkids, meanwhile,
are thrilled that someone else does the dishes so they don't have to.

Last week my boss left me a note saying that
I had forgotten to clean the bathroom mirror for the last two weeks.
This is a job that I get paid for, and bless her heart,
she knows I have ADHD and she simply reminds me. :)

It could be that she likes my work ethic even if I sometimes fail
to do the very best that I'm capable of.
I've only missed work twice since I began working for her 10 years ago -
once when my sister died and once when I broke my arm.

She was very understanding that I would have difficulty doing the job
with a broken arm and was patient with a less-than-stellar job until it healed.
She clearly values dependability more than perfection. :D

Fuzzy12
01-11-15, 08:16 AM
I'm not blaming you for misunderstanding me; I actually explicitly said that both parents and not parents are adding valuable things here so as to not be misunderstood. But I understand how it's very easy to hear what I said as invalidating the opinions of non-parents.

I actually never thought that you or anyone else was saying that non parent opinions weren't welcome. I don't think this thread has got anything to do with non parents vs parents. So no, I didn't find your post invalidating. I just found it a bit, well, out of context. At least I didn't understand the context. :o

I'm sure that no one is denying the difficulties, fears and stress that come with parenthood. At least, I'm not. What I was trying yo say in my reply to you was that even though being a parent is undeniably difficult and even though amber is under a huge amount of stress should we not be able to share our opinion of what we believe mmigjt be helpful?

I didn't mean:" as non parents aren't we allowed to voice our opinion?" And I'm sorry it came across that way. I should have specified. So to be very clear, what I meant was: "even though amber is in pain and stressed should we not tell her our honest opinion rather than just pacify her?" Of course, only amber can answer this question. Yes, sometimes just agreeing with someone who's ranting is the most helpful thing to do. I didn't think it was in this case but I could be wrong.

I was saying that I think we're misunderstanding what she was actually saying.

I understand why we hear Amber as being very judgmental of her child. I can understand why someone might think she is disappointed in her child.

But I don't think that's what she's saying. Actually, I think she specifically said she didn't feel judgmental or "disappointed" in her child, but there are of course a lot of conflicting feelings here.

I think she's disappointed in herself. I think she's terrified that she doesn't know what to do. And I think some of us whether or not we are having children are not hearing what she's saying. (Amber can correct me if it's actually me who is mistaken)



Again, probably all true, but I'm not sure how it's relevant. For me, this thread was never about judging or blaming amber but genuinely about finding a solution that works for them. Yes, maybe we did harp on too much about amber needing to understand adhd and her daughter better. I'm sure I did. And I agree with very tired that practical solutions might be more helpful.

However, and this is where I don't understand you or vtired, I don't this this thread is about non parents vs parents and I also don't think this thread is about ADHD vs nt or amber vs daughter. I'm not consciously on the daughter's side. I'm not standing up for her or trying to save or protect her.I really believe that understanding ADHD will not only improve the daughter's life but also amber's. I think, she s fighting a losing battle that is sapping her last bit of energy and health. I've got no doubt that she s doing this with the best intentions for her daughter and out of concern for her future, but I think she s hurting both herself and her daughter in the process. Maybe even herself more since she is at the end of her tether.

I could be wrong of course about the significance of the dishes and I'm reevaluating based on your latest posts. Good points there and maybe understanding ADHD is not really the problem after all.

However, the fact that parenting is incredibly difficult and scary, which I'm sure it is, please believe me that I get that, doesn t make anything I've suggested or said in this thread wrong.

Fortune
01-11-15, 08:58 AM
This thread isn't about parents vs. non-parents, but I thought stevuke's first post on that topic (as well as a follow-up) was really um... ill-considered and condescending toward the participants who aren't parents. Plus the argument in question is one I've only ever seen invoked before in really hot button topics.

dvdnvwls
01-11-15, 09:17 AM
Someone who's not feeling judgmental, but who is nonetheless judging harshly (and in this case based on false criteria), is still judgmental. Being shown how that is the case is supposed to create an opportunity for the OP to change her mind.

Wowwowwow
01-11-15, 09:17 AM
I two daughters, ages 16 and 9.

16 year old has auditory processing disorder and ADHD-PI. She has been taking Strattera since last March. she is 5'7" 123 pounds and takes 80 mg of Strattera.

9 year old has dyslexia and ADHD-PI.

I am a single mother, I work full time and have fibromyalgia. I'm divorced from their dad who sees them every Saturday. He is not a involved parent. I am the one who recognized the problems in my daughters. I am the one who had to meet with the school teachers, take them to doctors and get them diagnosed. I'm the one that arranges play dates, birthday parties, takes them to the library, plays and musicals. I'm the one that pays for extra curriculars, tutoring, piano lessons, etc. I'm not trying to be narcissistic, I'm just trying to show that I am doing ALL of the parenting with NO help.

My 16 year old has been taking Strattera since last March. At first she was on 60 mg, but that didn't seem to be helping. She was still doing stupid things. So I told the psychartist she needed more. He upped it to 80 mg. She still does stupid things!

Normally she uses her cell phone as an alarm clock, but as punishment I took it away. She was like How am I going to get up in the morning? I said use your alarm clock. She set the alarm, but it didn't go off in the morning. I said Are you sure you set the alarm time for AM and not PM? Yeah, mom. Okay, next morning, same thing again, alarm doesn't go off. I check the alarm clock, DD, your clock's time is set for PM when it should be AM! *blank stare from DD*

DD, your alarm time is set for AM, but it's not going to ring in the morning because your clock's TIME is set for PM! *more blank stare*

I go to pick her up from summer camp. I tell her I am coming early today to take her to a doctor's appointment. I text her and say I will be there in ten minutes. I walk into the YMCA and look around, no DD. I figure she must be in the bathroom, so I sit down by the front doors and wait. And wait. And wait. Finally, I call her on her phone. She's in the movie room, watching a movie. She said she was waiting for me to call her to tell her to come out! I'm like, I told you I was on my way! How am I supposed to know where you are?

Same thing when I pick her up from school. Sometimes instead of taking the bus home, she will stay late for a club so I will pick her up. Now, instead of her waiting outside where she can see me when I pull up, she's inside the school. The school has a driveway in front of it where parents drive through to pick up their kids. All the other students are outside, waiting for their parents to pick them up. Not DD, she's inside the school.

After I get off work, I have to pick up 9 year old from her school, drop her off at her tutoring, run to 16 year old's school to pick her up, and drive back to 9 year old's tutoring before her session is over. It is cutting it close. I tell DD, I have to be back before your sister's tutoring is over, you have to be outside the school so you can see me when I pull up so you don't make me late getting back to pick up your sister.

So the next time comes, I'm in my car in the driveway, waiting. I can only pull up but so far because other parents are in their cars in front of me. I text her, DD, I'm here. No response. Finally, I see her walking towards the car. I said, Why weren't you waiting outside like I told you? She says I was waiting outside, I was just over there sitting down with my friends so I didn't see you. DD, you need to be standing where you can see me when I pull up. I can't always pull up in the driveway that far because there are cars in front of me.

Next time, she's outside, but now she's standing behind a F%CKING column! I show her where she needs to stand so she can see me. Next time when I pull up, she is standing where she can see me, but SHE IS LOOKING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF WHERE CARS ARE COMING FROM! I say to myself, she's going to look this way and see me. Nope. I wait for her to look in my direction, the direction ALL CARS ARE COMING FROM BECAUSE THE DRIVEWAY IS A ONE WAY STREET. I honk my horn. Finally she looks my way. She says she didn't want to look my direction because she didn't want the girl standing next to her to think she was trying to look at her. :mad::mad::mad::mad: The girl standing "next" to her, was at least five feet away from her.

I said, so what she thinks you're looking at her? Take two F%cking steps forward so it doesn't look like you're looking at her and look for me!!

This past Saturday I changed the 16 yr old's medication from Strattera to Concerta. She's been taking it every morning. I read reviews where parents say their son started clearning the entire house and got everything done. DD's ONE chore she has to do every day is the dishes. She's been doing dishes since she was 12, and she has YET to do them correctly. She forgets to wipe the table off, or she forgets to put something away. Or she misses a pot on the stove. I've written a list for her, she doesn't follow the list. I do the dishes with her. Unless I'm there every freaking day, breathing down her neck, telling her everything single last thing to do, she screws it up!

She's 16 years old! Her 9 year old sister has ADHD and makes her bed up better than she does! Her 9 year old sister keeps her room neater than her!

I get up this morning, go down stairs, and see all the things she didn't put away last night when she did the dishes. The bread's out, she's left a dirty pitcher on the counter, and there were several cans of opened food left on the counters. She says she doesn't see them.

I told her to write a thank you note for some Christmas gifts she got from family. This morning I asked her for the thank you note so I could mail it. I checked what she wrote.

It was a very nice note, only problem was she was thanking the person for giving her a photo album. I said, DD, what are you talking about, what photo album?

*blank stare*

DD- the card says thank you for the photo album, there was no photo album.

She says, Yes there was. You know, with the pictures all of us in them.

*facepalm*

I said, first of all, that was not a photo album, that was a bunch of photo FRAMES with our pictures in them. A photo album is a book. And Sue and Pat did not give you that. They gave that to me. They gave you EAR BUDS.

She has been taking the Concerta (36 mg) for three days now. I thought it started working an hour later? :confused:

We were seeing a psychiatrist for the ADHD, but all he does is listen to me complain and perscribe medication.

You don't "grow out" of ADHD, so how is my daughter ever going to get and keep a job? If she can't SEE the things she's leaving on the counters, how is she is going to SEE when she didn't put fries in the happy meal?

She wants to be a doctor, how is she going to SEE white spots in a patient's throat? She's going to be fired from every job she gets. A boss is not going to "give only one step instructions" to her. He's going to show her one time and expect her to get it.

DD is going to be a senior next year. I know, you're supposed to take 30% off of a ADHD kid's age, so is DD supposed to stay in school for another four years? If she should be treated several years younger than her actual age, why is it her 9 year old sister can wipe the table off better than her? And her sister has ADHD-PI too!

I am tired of dealing with her. I am tired of trying to "patient" and "understanding". I'm tired of trying to remember that she can be so smart in school, but so stupid at home! She has a 3.7 GPA right now. She can calculate math problems in her head that I would need a calculator for.
One time she asked me, "Mom, how could Mary be a virgin when Jesus had brothers and sisters?"

If she was stupid all the time I could remember to treat her that way, and only expect so much of her, but it's the stupid-smart-responsible-irresponsible stuff that throws me! She NEVER needs to be told to do her homework, but she needs to be told EVERY DAY to do the dishes!

-She can organize a school project, and get it done ahead of time, but she can't organize her bedroom so she doesn't lose things.
-She can discuss current events and politics, she knows the key differences between a liberal and a conservative, but can't comprehend how to set her alarm clock so it will ring in the morning and not in the evening!
-She can look online at a detailed drawing of Spiderman and draw it exactly the same, but she can't look at the stove and see a dirty pot that needs to be cleaned.

I've given her tips, stragies, advice on how to do things so she won't forget. She doesn't do any of them! I've yelled, I've talked, I've taken devices away, punish, ground. Nothing seems to make any impression in that head of hers.

I just want her to f-cking DO THE DISHES CORRECTLY for ONCE in her life!! I just want to wake up in the morning, go in the kitchen and not find something she didn't put away.
With my limited parenting skills of 12 yr old, one daughter , which I will not try to compare to your situation ,as were all in different boats,but fighting same tide! I want my daughter to like me, now, I'm not her friend, I'm a parent ,that's the difference! And when my nerves are weak ,I usually just get some time away, it does a world of good! Can you get some help? Do you think if you go a little easier on them,kids are kids,some will always have dirty dishes in sink!even in adulthood....now here's the thought provoking part......Everything our kids know came from what they learned at home! By us ,the perfect people they look too for guidance....I think parenting is the toughest job a human will ever have! Just remember these people will place you in a home one day! Ya want em to like ya!:yes:

Stevuke79
01-11-15, 05:30 PM
Steve...
Imagine if one day a friend of yours was having a heart attack in a shopping mall, and under extreme pressure and agonizing effort you found his car in the parking lot so you could get him to the hospital.
And imagine that somehow the Employment Gods heard of your amazing navigational success, and magically (and permanently!) turned you into a bicycle courier in China, where every week you were sent to a new district or a new city.
There may not be such a thing as "can't", but there certainly is such a thing as "can't reasonably". The positive-(un)thinking crowd can crow all they like; some people really can't reasonably do certain things. Maybe at another time in her life, maybe even not so far off, Amber's daughter will find that cleaning up the kitchen becomes reasonably doable for her. Until then, constantly prodding her, complaining when she gets it wrong (again!), and praising her occasional desperate effort to please, has zero chance of success (if by success is meant something more important than "the dishes got clean somehow").
I would think the employment gods had made a mistake.

But I would also look back and ask myself how I had managed to find my way that time. If it were the mere pressure of the situation, then it might have nothing to do with the rest of my life. If however, I had managed to do something successfully, under the same circumstances that I had previously failed, AND IF this were something I had been working at and trying to get better at, I would ask myself what I had done right.

And at 16 it's still my parents job to help me understand what meets that criteria. And if my mother tried to help me use this experience to find my car in the future, I would think she was doing right.

But if on the other hand, on the basis of this experience, my mother had banished me to do nothing but navigation for the rest of my life, then like the employment gods, she would havevmade a mistake.

GUYS! We're talking about dishes! Basic stuff for all but the most disabled people.
Why are we coming to such drastic conclusions about this kid?

dvdnvwls--

I see your point, but it feels odd to me that you (and others) are so so sure that Amber's daughter can't learn/grow/change. She's a teenager! Do we really know for sure that she cannot ever master the kitchen chores? To me it seems a bit early to decide that.

It seems REALLY strange.

I suspect some of us are dragging our own baggage into this as opposed to trying to help amber.

I actually never thought that you or anyone else was saying that non parent opinions weren't welcome. I don't think this thread has got anything to do with non parents vs parents. So no, I didn't find your post invalidating. I just found it a bit, well, out of context. At least I didn't understand the context. :o

My context was the judgement and criticism thrown at amber. Especially the criticism she got for things that she already said she knew were wrong.

I think you find my post strange because it had nothing to do with anything you said or how you said it. It had to do with so e posters who were being plain rotten. And holy and righteous to boot!

I'm sure that no one is denying the difficulties, fears and stress that come with parenthood. At least, I'm not. What I was trying yo say in my reply to you was that even though being a parent is undeniably difficult and even though amber is under a huge amount of stress should we not be able to share our opinion of what we believe mmigjt be helpful?
We should share our opinions, insights and suggestions.

But we should also keep our judgements to ourselves. They hurt, and they don't help. Especially not with a new poster.

This doesn't apply to you, but when we can't seperate the two, then we're not truly interested in helping the person we're speaking to. Judgement helps no one. Again, YOU weren't judging. Others were.

I didn't mean:" as non parents aren't we allowed to voice our opinion?" And I'm sorry it came across that way. I should have specified. So to be very clear, what I meant was: "even though amber is in pain and stressed should we not tell her our honest opinion
Yes. But if we can't do that without passing judgement, then we're not really trying to help, no matter what we tell ourselves.

And there was A LOT of judgement in this thread.

Stevuke79
01-11-15, 06:07 PM
To be clear fuzzy, I don't think you passed any judgement.

I also think it might not be obvious how biting many of the remarks were. And IMO, those remarks were entirely unhelpful, and any content or value those posters might have conveyed was completely lost.

But that's not you.

Lunacie
01-11-15, 07:48 PM
To be clear fuzzy, I don't think you passed any judgement.

I also think it might not be obvious how biting many of the remarks were. And IMO, those remarks were entirely unhelpful, and any content or value those posters might have conveyed was completely lost.

But that's not you.

I'm afraid I reacted in kind to the attitude of judgment
that I saw in the OP's first post.
I think that I, and some of the others who responded,
were defending the OP's daughter from that judgment.

Maybe we weren't very helpful, but maybe ...
maybe we opened the OP's eyes to how her attitude may look
from the perspective of a 16 year old who may feel a very low self-esteem
when she simply doesn't seem to be able to please her mother,
no matter how hard she is trying.

dvdnvwls
01-11-15, 10:15 PM
GUYS! We're talking about dishes! Basic stuff for all but the most disabled people.
Why are we coming to such drastic conclusions about this kid?


When a person consistently fails a simple task (like washing the dishes properly, finding his own car where he parked it a short time ago, doing simple arithmetic on paper with a pencil and no time limit, reading a simple sentence in his own language, etc), it isn't a "drastic conclusion" to say "This person can't do this task" - it's simply the obvious truth. All that's left is to come up with a good answer for the obvious next question "Now what?".

Amber assumed in her original post that her daughter can easily do a good job of the dishes and is choosing not to.

I don't assume (for a different example) that you Steve can easily find your parked car in an unfamiliar place and are choosing to not find it. Instead I learn from the evidence you've given, that something (who knows what mechanism exactly) makes it harder for you to find objects than it is for most other people, and I say to myself "If I ever go someplace with Steve, I should be the one to remember where the car is, leaving Steve to take care of those things he's better at than I am."

Maybe it comes down to seeing this choice:

Daughter never gets the dishes right -> Something is stopping her

OR

Daughter never gets the dishes right -> She must be lying

... and having the human decency to reserve the "she's lying" conclusion for when there is truly no other possible explanation.

VeryTired
01-11-15, 10:29 PM
dvdnvwls,

Actually, this isn't necessarily so. I think you are making it too black and white. People often take a long time to learn new skills, for one thing. And I don't think anyone except you has even imagined a possibility of Amber's daughter lying.

I think Lunacie is right that Amber's tone of enormous frustration in her OP seemed to amount to negative judgement, and this has caused many others to respond to her in terms of harsh judgement. Fair enough--everyone's emotions are in play. But although you are usually very good at seeing more than one point of view and offering tolerance, on this point you seem so, so adamant.

I don't think Amber's goal was to force her daughter to do dishes although that task is impossible for the daughter, rather, she was trying--with frustration and desperation--to identify ways she could help her daughter to build capabilities. It's quite a different thing, and no matter what you say, we don't have definite evidence of what the daughter can or cannot learn to do.

Unmanagable
01-11-15, 10:44 PM
When a person consistently fails a simple task (like washing the dishes properly, finding his own car where he parked it a short time ago, doing simple arithmetic on paper with a pencil and no time limit, reading a simple sentence in his own language, etc), it isn't a "drastic conclusion" to say "This person can't do this task" - it's simply the obvious truth. All that's left is to come up with a good answer for the obvious next question "Now what?".

Amber assumed in her original post that her daughter can easily do a good job of the dishes and is choosing not to.

I don't assume (for a different example) that you Steve can easily find your parked car in an unfamiliar place and are choosing to not find it. Instead I learn from the evidence you've given, that something (who knows what mechanism exactly) makes it harder for you to find objects than it is for most other people, and I say to myself "If I ever go someplace with Steve, I should be the one to remember where the car is, leaving Steve to take care of those things he's better at than I am."

Maybe it comes down to seeing this choice:

Daughter never gets the dishes right -> Something is stopping her

OR

Daughter never gets the dishes right -> She must be lying

... and having the human decency to reserve the "she's lying" conclusion for when there is truly no other possible explanation.

Is it really a question of human decency? That seems like quite a stretch. It's an awareness issue and she came here to increase her awareness.

RobboW
01-11-15, 11:36 PM
Has anyone even noticed that Amber is no longer participating in her own thread?

Lunacie
01-12-15, 12:16 AM
dvdnvwls,

Actually, this isn't necessarily so. I think you are making it too black and white. People often take a long time to learn new skills, for one thing. And I don't think anyone except you has even imagined a possibility of Amber's daughter lying.

I think Lunacie is right that Amber's tone of enormous frustration in her OP seemed to amount to negative judgement, and this has caused many others to respond to her in terms of harsh judgement. Fair enough--everyone's emotions are in play. But although you are usually very good at seeing more than one point of view and offering tolerance, on this point you seem so, so adamant.

I don't think Amber's goal was to force her daughter to do dishes although that task is impossible for the daughter, rather, she was trying--with frustration and desperation--to identify ways she could help her daughter to build capabilities. It's quite a different thing, and no matter what you say, we don't have definite evidence of what the daughter can or cannot learn to do.

Interesting point of view, but not the way I was seeing Amber's posts.
Not that she was looking for help and options,
she said herself it was a rant rather than a request.

She was frustrated that nothing she was trying to do was working.
I get that, it is frustrating to be in that situation.

I thought she was blaming her daughter for not trying harder to make it work,
for not meeting her halfway.

Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't.
Clearly we didn't all read her post to mean the same thing.


Has anyone even noticed that Amber is no longer participating in her own thread?

Yeah, and I'm sorry for that.
I hope she'll take the messages that were left for her to heart,
and find ways to help her daughter learn,
and support her daughter.

BellaVita
01-12-15, 02:18 AM
GUYS! We're talking about dishes! Basic stuff for all but the most disabled people.
Why are we coming to such drastic conclusions about this kid?

Hey Steve. :)

I think one reason many of us are jumping to the conclusion that dishes may be too hard for her, is because they were too hard for us. You're right, we are being judgmental by doing that. I myself think I was a bit too judgmental in some of my posts, and to Amber I say sorry for coming off that way.

But I really did just want to help.

I think you are making one mistake in your logic though - assuming that a person has to be of "the most disabled people" to not be able to do the dishes.

That's absolutely wrong.

ADHD has a tendency to "choose" some things that people affected by it have massive difficulties with - for some people it's cleaning up after themselves, for some it's paying bills on time - for others it's dishes.

A person doesn't have to be "the most disabled" person in order to not do the dishes.

There are some that are disabled by their disorder in a way that DOESN'T let them do the dishes, no matter the coping strategies, no matter the skills, no matter how much they've practiced.

I do think we need to respect that we do not know for sure if it's Amber's daughter's ADHD that's causing her to not do the dishes, but we also need to respect that this may indeed be a likely possibility.

dvdnvwls
01-12-15, 02:33 AM
Is it really a question of human decency? That seems like quite a stretch. It's an awareness issue and she came here to increase her awareness.

I appreciate her search for awareness, but after her awareness was increased, it appears she essentially decided "Nope, daughter is just lying, and so are these people who are trying to help".

RobboW
01-12-15, 04:55 AM
No, I think Amber feels like she has been ambushed after coming on to vent with a rant.

I also don't think she had any idea just how little she understands ADHD.

I hope she comes back on and takes some things on board and learns from it.

Fuzzy12
01-12-15, 05:04 AM
I don't think that Amber thinks that her daughter is lying about her ability to do the dishes. I think, she just feels that her daughter hasn't reached her full potential and wants to help her realise her potential.

Fortune
01-12-15, 05:31 AM
Anything can end up being too difficult or too whatever for disabled people, for a large number of reasons. Doing dishes as defined by Amber in this thread is not a simple task, at least not for everyone. There are supposedly "simple" tasks that I cannot get right no matter how hard I try because how hard I try isn't the issue. It's not realistic to just say "this task is basic and simple" because you don't really know.

And I mean especially when people have in the past gone on at length about how it's not possible to tell how severe someone's ADHD is based on how well they've managed in life. I guess it's totally possible when it comes to doing the dishes.

dvdnvwls
01-12-15, 05:45 AM
No, I think Amber feels like she has been ambushed after coming on to vent with a rant.

I also don't think she had any idea just how little she understands ADHD.

I hope she comes back on and takes some things on board and learns from it.

As do I.

(I don't think that when a person attacks - even under the guise of a "rant" - that they can then be said to have been ambushed.)

Abi
01-12-15, 05:49 AM
:goodpost:

TygerSan
01-12-15, 07:37 AM
Fwiw, I added the RANT tag on the request of the OP to make it clear that she was venting.

I think everyone brings their personal experience into their advice. I really wish there had been more advice from parents with strategies born out of similar experiences.

RobboW
01-12-15, 07:52 AM
Yeah.

Not knowing the people, I just tried to offer my own observances from my situation which is similar but seeing as I am ADD, taken a different way.

Stevuke79
01-12-15, 09:53 AM
I appreciate her search for awareness, but after her awareness was increased, it appears she essentially decided "Nope, daughter is just lying, and so are these people who are trying to help".

She said nothing to that effect.
It seemed to me that people were using amber as a target for their anger towards their own childhood. That's not a recipe for good advice.

Stevuke79
01-12-15, 09:58 AM
What I felt was a big mistake in this thread was that so many people had an opinion as to whether ambers daughter actually can do the dishes. That's unknowable for any of us. Assuming that she can't do the dishes is just as bad as someone assuming she can do the dishes just because they can. It's the same mistake and just as bad.

In order for us to be giving good advice, that advice must be agnostic to whether this kid can learn to do the dishes.

TygerSan
01-12-15, 11:26 AM
What I felt was a big mistake in this thread was that so many people had an opinion as to whether ambers daughter actually can do the dishes. That's unknowable for any of us. Assuming that she can't do the dishes is just as bad as someone assuming she can do the dishes just because they can. It's the same mistake and just as bad.

I wish very much that someone had been able to figure out strategies to help me with organization/time management, etc. when I was a teenager. But everything was so overwhelming, and I was such an overwhelmingly mean, spiteful, hurting, emotional mess, that I'm not surprised that people gave up and let me coast.

It's truly a fine line between harping on a skill that is beyond someone, and helping to find the support/skills that allows one to be successful. Figuring out which scenario is which, and finding work-arounds for *either* requires the patience of a saint.

Add to the above scenario that ADHD and related disorders are often hereditary, and parents may have had, or still have, the same difficulties, and need to use certain strategies to mitigate said difficulties, and it becomes even more difficult to deal with.

daveddd
01-12-15, 11:29 AM
She said nothing to that effect.
It seemed to me that people were using amber as a target for their anger towards their own childhood. That's not a recipe for good advice.

exactly , between that and everybody praising each other for it, i wouldn't come back to the thread either

Stevuke79
01-12-15, 11:34 AM
One last thing, and then I probably won't come back to this thread until the OP does.

I think it's very noble and praiseworthy to be sensitive to pushing a child too hard or not appreciating their limitations. To push a child too hard can be very damaging.

Not pushing a child hard enough can be just as damaging. In a basic task, to let a child give up too soon, that's what they learn: to give up.

Now in the previous generation there was a BIG problem with expecting too much from children. That doesn't mean the other extreme can't be just as bad. We have to teach children to have the courage to find their limitations. Most skills take much trial and failure. To protect a child from repeated failure is to teach them to give up too easily.

(To NEVER ease up on them, is also very damaging.)

Stevuke79
01-12-15, 11:35 AM
exactly , between that and everybody praising each other for it, i wouldn't come back to the thread either

I was afraid to say it that harshly.

Go you!

Lunacie
01-12-15, 07:40 PM
Anything can end up being too difficult or too whatever for disabled people, for a large number of reasons. Doing dishes as defined by Amber in this thread is not a simple task, at least not for everyone. There are supposedly "simple" tasks that I cannot get right no matter how hard I try because how hard I try isn't the issue. It's not realistic to just say "this task is basic and simple" because you don't really know.

And I mean especially when people have in the past gone on at length about how it's not possible to tell how severe someone's ADHD is based on how well they've managed in life. I guess it's totally possible when it comes to doing the dishes.

When I was 16, any task with more than 3 or 4 steps was too difficult for me.
Here's what Amber expects her 16 year old ADHD daughter to do:


She has to:
clear everything off the table
clear everything off the stove
clear everything off all the counters
put away any food left over from dinner
load the dishwasher
wipe off the table
wipe off the stove
wipe off the counters
load anything she discovered while wiping things down into the dishwasher


Just an assumption on my part, but I think there are two more items on that list:

put soap in the dishwasher
turn it on


Is it really fair to be so upset with someone who doesn't see the mess
or can't remember every single step
and tries to please someone who apparently has OCD?

I've been around adults with OCD and they are best pleased
when they do the cleaning themselves.

So kudos to Amber for letting go (as much as she is able)
of needing that task done to her very high standards
and giving her daughter a chance to practice this chore.

But ... as someone without OCD I know that I could never
clean well enough to really satisfy someone with OCD.
And that's even if I didn't have ADHD.

Amber mentioned getting some therapy for herself.
Family therapy can also be very helpful, as I've learned.
A neutral party might help them find ways to co-exist
with both problems ... ADHD and OCD.

Stevuke79
01-12-15, 09:40 PM
Has anyone even noticed that Amber is no longer participating in her own thread?

Must be indicative if the great "enlightening" job we all did.

It's really sad, and I was about to post a sarcastic "job well done". But this is a great support community, and we really do have a lot to offer people.

Maybe this doesn't have to be a bad thing if we can all learn from how this went, and do something just a little bit different next time.

stef
01-13-15, 03:17 AM
......Everything our kids know came from what they learned at home! By us ,the perfect people they look too for guidance....I think parenting is the toughest job a human will ever have!


There is a lot of conflict on this thread because it hit a nerve for so many of us.
No matter how hard we try - this is how it looks to others, even those closest to us, who we are genuinely trying to please!

I was that girl, 3.8 gpa, cannot do dishes correctly, at 47! but I have an awesome job and I can find my stuff in the morning. it just takes lots of understanding!

dvdnvwls
01-13-15, 03:46 AM
She said nothing to that effect.
It seemed to me that people were using amber as a target for their anger towards their own childhood. That's not a recipe for good advice.

Two things:

- I have no anger toward my childhood on this topic. I'm simply speaking from experience. My mother tried for some time to help me become effective at doing the dishes. However, within a fairly reasonable amount of time, she gave up. (I'm unhappy about not being able to do my own dishes properly now, since I live alone, but I don't think that's coloured my posts. It is very likely that hearing about a kid being badgered over something she can't do makes me angry about that in the present moment.)

- Every last bit of valuable advice on this thread has been from people with direct experience of not being able to do the dishes as it was requested of them. Should that be a surprise? Isn't that type of first-hand information what the OP ought to have been hoping for?

Little Missy
01-13-15, 08:17 AM
Until the day my mum died she complained about me being "unable to dust properly" and "incapable of loading a dishwasher correctly."

And we always had a housekeeper! :)

Leann8806
01-20-15, 11:06 AM
You sound just like my mother! I too have moved across the country and never talk to her. Please try to be more patient with your daughter.

Stevuke79
01-20-15, 02:58 PM
I'm sorry for suggesting that anyone here is projecting from their own experiences.
Clearly I'm the one who's nuts.

More seriously, if Amber peaks back at this thread, I hope she realizes that all this abbrassiveness is not a reaction to her, but from other people's personal experiences that couldn't possibly have anything to do with her. (She simply hasn't shared enough information for all of this harsh judgement to be justified.)

And I'm sorry for all of you who have painful childhood memories. I don't blame anyone for projecting those memories on to Amber. I'm sure that I've made similar mistakes many times. I understand and empathize with all of you as well.

dvdnvwls
01-20-15, 05:07 PM
Steve - projection is not an issue in the context of this thread.

Amber has seen her daughter fail at the same simple necessary task over and over again despite clear instruction and frequent demonstration of the correct procedure and results. She concludes that her daughter is wilfully disobeying and lacks discipline.

Steve, you yourself fail over and over again at certain simple necessary tasks, despite the fact that you have been shown how. Therefore, your wandering around looking for your car or other objects is clearly your choice - a wilful, oppositional, belligerent act that you put on. It's obvious that you simply prefer not to find things, because if you find them then you'll have to work.

Or have I misunderstood?

dvdnvwls
01-20-15, 05:33 PM
Amber's story of her own reaction to the situation she encountered with her daughter and the dishes is a straightforward example of people with ADHD being told we are "lazy, crazy, or stupid". There really isn't any more to it than that.

Amber's reaction shows that she is lacking the most basic information about her daughter's condition and situation, or perhaps that she has the information but doesn't realize that it applies to real-life situations and the ADHDer doesn't get to choose how it will apply.

Lunacie
01-20-15, 06:24 PM
Let's go back and look at just one of Amber's posts ...

No, of course I didn't talk like that to her. I'm venting on here.


Ear buds are the things you use to listen to ipods with.
The ear buds were addressed to her. She opened that present. The photo frames were addressed to me. I opened them.

Why would she think a gift addressed to me and opened by me was for her?

It sure looks like Amber thinks her daughter is stupid
because she didn't understand which present
her mom was talking about.


I'd like him to give us strategies on how to remember things, routines, advice.

For example, I tell her to keep pads, tampons, Tylenol, etc. in a purse and to carry that purse with her everywhere. That way she doesn't have to remember tampons, Tylenol, wallet, all she has to remember is to grab her purse as she's walking out the door. Does she do it? Nope. Then she gets her period and doesn't have any tampons with her.
[I]

Again it looks like Amber thinks her daughter is too stupid
to remember to simply fill her purse with all the things
that she might ever possibly need
and then remember to take the dang thing with her everywhere she goes.

But difficulty remembering is one of the main symptoms of ADHD.



Thing is, she wants to be a doctor, not a graphic artist. She's good at chemistry and science, I keep telling her to she should be a researcher. Maybe there's hope for her yet.

So Amber thinks her daughter is smart ...
but not smart enough to become a doctor,
maybe just a researcher, you know,
where she couldn't actually endanger someone's life.


No, it's not a stupid question. I was giving that as an example to show how smart she can be. Jesus did have brothers and sisters.

And here Amber seems to think that her daughter can be smart ...
when she wants to be.

Only with ADHD we don't get to choose when our smarts work,
and when they fail us.



Stevuke

I've been both a child with ADHD and the parent/grandparent of a child with ADHD.

I'm not simply projecting my childhood experiences here.
I'm perfectly capable of looking at what Amber actually wrote without that filter.
Many of us made valid criticisms of her attitude towards her daughter's disorder
and many also made very helpful suggestions.

I wonder how much your reaction to our responses might be colored by your own
personal experiences? I don't know why else this thread has been so upsetting to you.

namazu
01-20-15, 07:11 PM
As the OP of this thread is no longer participating, and as the discussion of the OP's immediate concerns seems to have run its course (and a bit "off course"), this thread is now closed.