View Full Version : Gentetics and alcoholisim


sarahsweets
03-04-15, 06:35 AM
Do you think addiction is genetic? Do you think someone with a history of addiction in their family can develop somehing like alcoholisiim on their own or does the home environment play a big role developing addiction?I believe its both. My father was what they used to call manic depressive and an alcoholic drug addict. I grew up surrounded by pain and chaos. Not dealing with the pain and abuse probably propelled me into self medication. It has changed forms over the years and settled on alcoholisim which nearly tore me and my family apart. Ive been sober for 2 years now and life is so much better but its always a struggle. I cant tell you how many times Ive thought " I could really use a drink" and Ive almost forgotten the painful life I had created drinking and what it did to my family. The mind can be very tricky.

Little Missy
03-04-15, 09:48 AM
I'm going to say yes and no. I've seen children of alcoholics and drug addicts become perfect examples of no addictive behaviours whatsoever. And then again I've seen children become even worse than their parents.

Honestly, as simple as it sounds, I think children are like a roll of the dice. You just cannot predict the outcome of a child. Nature, nurture...it goes both ways. Sometimes children raised in utter chaos have no chaotic tendencies in them and other times they just go as coo-coo crazy the way they have seen life around them.

What is truly great is that you chose to change yourself.

Karamo
03-08-15, 04:15 PM
I'm on the other side of the spectrum; I do not believe in the existence of "genetical predisposition for addiction". I believe that surroundings and experiences form a personality that may be more or less inclined to consume/partake in drugs/addictive behaviors.

Both my mother and father, as well as their parents have all been addicts (with the exception of my paternal grandmother). Primarily to alcohol. My father was a heavy alcoholic throughout my entire childhood. Every single day he would be drunk and oftentime physically abuse me and my sister. My mother became addicted to amphetamines when I was seven years old. She suffers from many mental illnesses on top of that. Schizophrenia, bi-polar type 2 et cetera. Neither my father or mother worked while I was growing up. My mother started IV'ing heroin and my uncle did so as well while living at our house.

Currently my mother is using amphetamine, subutex and xanax daily and my father is on his deathbed.

My sister is the most standup person I know and drank a few beers once or twice a month, though she quit, due to pregnancy.

Me, I started self-medicating with amphetamine for a year, 2012, since my hypersomnia didn't allow me to function at my full-time job. The difference between me and most other drug addicts is that I DECIDED to go into addiction and carefully read up on mechanisms of action and what precautions to take in order to minimize side-effects. I carefully titrated up to the lowest effective dose and never skipped a meal or a night's sleep. I never experienced euphoria, erradic behavior, tremor et cetera.

When my doctor told me that I was granted a neuropsychiatric examination for ADHD I quit, felt like total and utter crap for a while, and then got diagnosed.

I haven't taken speed since and I know I never will, ever. I am surrounded by speed, other drugs, addicts and the whole culture daily. I constantly get offered "a nose" but I have never once taken it since my psycheval. I rather be in my depressed and suicidal state than to take a hit, even though I know it will enable me to enjoy singing, making music and write again.

Why? I just don't have an "addiction personality". I never feel "cravings" so it's not a "mind over matter" thing either.

My mother on the other hand doesn't read or research. Nor does she have the intelligence for it. She never asks any questions and just takes everything that gives her instant well-being. She claims she is "well above average, intellectually" but she lacks all forms of self-awareness. Her argument is "if it makes you feel good, you should take it and should always be allowed to". There is NO deeper thought-process to it.

I believe that is a big factor - self-awareness.

So no, I do not believe the correlation between genetics and drug abuse in that sense. I do believe that hereditary stupidity may inhibit understanding and consequential thinking though which might make one more prone to falling into addiction.

And this comes from someone who fits into every single criteria for "high risk for addiction" xD

/Mr Low Dopamine.

Fuzzy12
03-08-15, 04:23 PM
If I remember right (which probably means I'm wrong), there is supposed to be a genetic factor to addiction.

Even if there isn't, ADHD ERS are supposed yo be pre disposed to have a vulnerability to addiction, isn't it? And ADHD is highly inheritable.

I guess learned behaviour plays a big part as well though.

Karamo
03-08-15, 05:06 PM
If I remember right (which probably means I'm wrong), there is supposed to be a genetic factor to addiction.

Even if there isn't, ADHD ERS are supposed yo be pre disposed to have a vulnerability to addiction, isn't it? And ADHD is highly inheritable.

I guess learned behaviour plays a big part as well though.

That's what they say but I think the prime concern here is the definition of addiction seeing as it oftentimes is a subjective experience, many times driven by personal rationalizations.

I want to think of addiction in a more distinct and clinical sense but that in itself goes against my emotionally driven drivel xD

If one argues simply that a dopamine deficiency is actively sought to be remedied by an individuals essentially, involuntary actions and decisions in order to compensate for said deficiency, I will call ********.

We do know that ADHD cause impulsive behavior and inhibits consequential reasoning but in my opinion (and, equally scientifically irrelevant, my experience) this one variable is of lesser importance than core personality.

Of course, one would probably argue that the ADHD might not be particularly debilitating of pronounced in such cases.

Either way, I believe every single person can become an addict given the "right" circumstances. The most mentally adamant person of any lineage would succumb to the altered neurochemical balance of heroin given IV injections over the course of a few weeks. I do however believe that an individual without psychiatric illness/ADHD may have an easier time BREAKING the addiction and having less of a risk for relapse as well as enjoying a much faster recovery. But "getting hooked" could happen to anyone and I'm not sure that certain genetics is as significant a marker as some want to make it out to be.

Essentially, I believe it's a pretty vague an open question (and interesting!) as physical dependancy and psychological dependancy does not always go hand in hand and the latter is interpreted in vastly different ways by different communities.

Good Lord I'm rambling. Not sure I'm even on topic ._.;

finallyfound10
03-08-15, 06:43 PM
Sarah- Congrats on your sobriety. You guys are my heroes! I've seen my own sister work hard to maintain her program and am in awe.

It HAS to be both as we've all heard of people who come from entire teetotaling (sp?) families on both sides for generations but one person becomes an addict then we've heard of both sides of a family for generations having many addicts and one person or more isn't.

I come from a family where my dad has 5 siblings (six kids total) and five are alcoholics. Among their kids, my sister (2.5 yrs sober) and several of our 1st cousins are alcoholics. Clearly, there is something in the genes as we were all raised in different ways.

I am a teetotaler but I believe that if I started to drink, it might very well get out of control quickly. Especially if I "thought" it was helping me with my issues in a better way than my legal meds.

The mystery of addiction and it's fallout is a major issue in the world and needs more attention and funding. Here is the US, we are getting closer to making it a health only issue rather than a moral issue but so much more work needs to be done.

Batman55
03-09-15, 12:54 AM
I do believe that hereditary stupidity may inhibit understanding and consequential thinking though which might make one more prone to falling into addiction.

Highly offensive to one like myself--a former addict who might have perished had I not been so lucky--and oddly hypocritical considering what you said about your mother's intellect, and the addictions she herself developed. I also have an old friend who personally confided that he overdosed on painkillers/alcohol at least 4 times--his family had to call the ambulance each time--which is actually far more dangerous than anything I ever did. But he recovered, and he eventually attended an esteemed college and graduated cum laude. I'll probably never accomplish as much, I'll tell you that!

Also, the statement is flawed. The correct thing to say here might be that ADHD increases the risk of addiction because we are prone to thinking in the short term without seeing future consequences. I've always struggled with this--I don't remember a day in my life when I was planning beyond the next 5 minutes, so to speak.

If you still believe hereditary stupidity is an important cause, then you need to specify what form of stupidity you mean. Do you mean an average IQ (does that count as "stupidity" to you?) or do you mean a lower IQ in the range of cognitive disability?

Karamo
03-09-15, 08:27 AM
Highly offensive to one like myself--a former addict who might have perished had I not been so lucky--and oddly hypocritical considering what you said about your mother's intellect, and the addictions she herself developed. I also have an old friend who personally confided that he overdosed on painkillers/alcohol at least 4 times--his family had to call the ambulance each time--which is actually far more dangerous than anything I ever did. But he recovered, and he eventually attended an esteemed college and graduated cum laude. I'll probably never accomplish as much, I'll tell you that!

Also, the statement is flawed. The correct thing to say here might be that ADHD increases the risk of addiction because we are prone to thinking in the short term without seeing future consequences. I've always struggled with this--I don't remember a day in my life when I was planning beyond the next 5 minutes, so to speak.

If you still believe hereditary stupidity is an important cause, then you need to specify what form of stupidity you mean. Do you mean an average IQ (does that count as "stupidity" to you?) or do you mean a lower IQ in the range of cognitive disability?

Of course I did not mean to offend as such but I do admit to having been a bit crass. My point does remain valid though and does not at all go against what I said about my mother; my mother is of less-than-average intellect but is too stupid to realize that herself. Most people of low intellect lack an in-depth perception of their own shortcomings.

When I talk about stupidity I do mean average to below average IQ. My mother has an IQ in the high 80's which is way below the 100 points which is considered average and the number I use (some people argue a +/- 15 differential to be considered average, some even argue a +/- 25 differential. Why not just include thte entire world's population while we're at it xD). The problem is that the word 'stupidity' has a very negative connotation which is not what I mean to emphasize. I blame it on my being Swedish and not knowing a better word to replace it with.

I stand fast on the point that I believe that a lack of knowledge and understanding does make one more prone to slip into addiction. Please refer to my mother's simpleton statement above.

This does NOT however mean that highly intelligent people can't slip into addiction and it most certainly does not mean that highly intelligent people are expontentially more resilient to a particular drugs addictive properties.

Like I said previously; the circumstances can make the addict.

Addiction is not a simple variable - it's the consequence of a MYRIAD of causes which all may differ from individual to individual. I believe intelligent people have an easier time avoiding and realizing dangers and cues as well as developing the understanding and skills necessary to break the addiction if it does happen. Of course we have Carl Sagan's pot smoking and Sigmund Freud's coke years et cetera as a rebuttal argument but a few exceptions does not prove much.

I want to stress that I don't mean to offend! I'm just not very good at having discussions at all ._.; Please forgive me for that.

EDIT: Regarding your note on ADHD. I know this very well as does most people on these boards. But is our disorder so simple in it's mechanisms that a blanket statement can be made and applied to every single instance of life? Without meds, I for one have never been able to finish anything that requires more than one "sitting", when I get angry I lose friends because a TOTAL inability to restrain myself et cetera. But when I have super weak moments and drugs are present as well as me being well aware of how they can turn every single issue into a positive one for several hours; I would still rather die than do those drugs.

I think this is interesting and I'd like to keep this friendly so let's exchange thoughts because I'm also curious as how you might view this :)

Again, sorry if I come across as a douche t.t

Batman55
03-10-15, 01:39 AM
Most people of low intellect lack an in-depth perception of their own shortcomings.


Well by this logic I might be me a genius, considering that I'm all too aware of the many deficiencies I have! I think this is a fair point, as I myself have seen this in others who exhibit genuine cognitive disability. Low self-awareness and/or lack of insight might be another way to put it. That's not me, I'm all the way to the opposite side. In some ways I wish I had less self-awareness.

An interesting thing to note about many (not all) people with cognitive disability is they can and will socialize with almost anyone. They do not have any fear at all of what the other person thinks of them. With my extreme awareness, though, it only takes a few social interactions and I'm worn out. No surprise that this constant anxiety has led to loneliness, and it's quite unpopular with the fairer sex!


The problem is that the word 'stupidity' has a very negative connotation which is not what I mean to emphasize. I blame it on my being Swedish and not knowing a better word to replace it with.


Understood, and perhaps I was quick to criticize.


I stand fast on the point that I believe that a lack of knowledge and understanding does make one more prone to slip into addiction. Please refer to my mother's simpleton statement above.


The strange thing is I did loads of research on the drugs I was interested in, before I ever took them. But it seems as time wore on, my ability to make good judgment calls about anything (especially substance use) was quickly deteriorating. The risk to my health became extreme and I knew it; but I kept using anyway, even though I knew it was unbelievably dumb and dangerous.

I've found that if I believe stupidity was the cause of this incredibly irrational behavior, it is hard for me to forgive myself and move on. Eventually I settled on believing it was self-loathing along with, well, addiction-related behavior that led to my loss of common sense. This has allowed me to move on.

But your post brings my doubts back about all this, and makes me wonder if I'm just a completely stupid individual. These are quite unpleasant thoughts, I must admit!


Of course we have Carl Sagan's pot smoking and Sigmund Freud's coke years et cetera as a rebuttal argument but a few exceptions does not prove much.


Don't forget any number of brilliant writers and artists, where addiction is very common. Scientific minds, as in your example, have a different kind of intelligence, no more or less valid than others.


But when I have super weak moments and drugs are present as well as me being well aware of how they can turn every single issue into a positive one for several hours; I would still rather die than do those drugs.

May I suggest it could be just as simple as this: you've learned to like yourself? That's a serious struggle for me, I rarely ever have certainty of my self-worth. This is possibly one of the greatest commonalities among all addicts. And this has nothing to do with sheer intellect.

Karamo
03-11-15, 06:47 AM
Well by this logic I might be me a genius, considering that I'm all too aware of the many deficiencies I have! I think this is a fair point, as I myself have seen this in others who exhibit genuine cognitive disability. Low self-awareness and/or lack of insight might be another way to put it. That's not me, I'm all the way to the opposite side. In some ways I wish I had less self-awareness.

Hah, genius or not, I think an increase in introspection (oftentimes valid) comes with higher intellect. As always, there are exceptions.

An interesting thing to note about many (not all) people with cognitive disability is they can and will socialize with almost anyone. They do not have any fear at all of what the other person thinks of them. With my extreme awareness, though, it only takes a few social interactions and I'm worn out. No surprise that this constant anxiety has led to loneliness, and it's quite unpopular with the fairer sex!

I hear that. I know a few "average people" (God, I sound so arrogant right now...) who have very poor self-esteem. It's oftentimes unfounded and based on other people's opinions rather than an an assessment of themselves based on less biased criteria. Those people usually have social anxiety and such. But in general I agree, there's not as much inhibiting or standing in the way of a 'regular persons' social needs - least of all him/herself.

The strange thing is I did loads of research on the drugs I was interested in, before I ever took them. But it seems as time wore on, my ability to make good judgment calls about anything (especially substance use) was quickly deteriorating. The risk to my health became extreme and I knew it; but I kept using anyway, even though I knew it was unbelievably dumb and dangerous.

I've found that if I believe stupidity was the cause of this incredibly irrational behavior, it is hard for me to forgive myself and move on. Eventually I settled on believing it was self-loathing along with, well, addiction-related behavior that led to my loss of common sense. This has allowed me to move on.

I don't know what drugs you've done but the fact that you did your research at least suggests a wee bit of forthought. Many drugs, as you are aware, makes you the mental equivalent of a root fruit (Someone just may like weed a WEE bit too many times during the day or "doubles his/her Xanax just for today.") and of course this causes a quickly diminishing overall intellectual function. Stimulants are a different case but when abused, it's mostly the lack of sleep and nutrion that impairs cognitive function. Of fourse, it's also easier to follow through these "lapses of judgement" if you're on a higher dose, than if you were on a low, therapeutic one.

What stopped me was the fact that I was granted a neuropsychiatric evaluation after having wished for one for a long time as well as my urge to "function in a normal manner".

But your post brings my doubts back about all this, and makes me wonder if I'm just a completely stupid individual. These are quite unpleasant thoughts, I must admit!

From the way you're write and reason I'd say that's as far from the truth that you can get. But then again, behavior can be stupid even though the person is not xD

May I suggest it could be just as simple as this: you've learned to like yourself? That's a serious struggle for me, I rarely ever have certainty of my self-worth. This is possibly one of the greatest commonalities among all addicts. And this has nothing to do with sheer intellect.

Oh no... I hate myself and then some. I am a horrible, horrible person and it just takes a little agitation to get me raining down thunder on everyone I love. Some people who are depressed can't away from their friends and they most certainly do not lose ALL of their empathy. I however do, and can't stand people. When I'm at my worst I'm not just "unfriendly" - I am downright evil and can't feel anything for anyone. I've lost many close friends over the last two years due to being in my deepest depression yet. I feel ashamed when I think of what I've called the people I love. I do not like myself at all, not even when I am normal, as I am now. This is part of why I tried to end my life in December last year.

I "know" that I am more intelligent than the vast majority of the population but I do not "believe" it. I use my words to appear superior to others simply because I believe it's the only skill I have which can me the appearance of being a worthy peer. I just hope that no one pokes through my bull****tery because they'd quickly find out that very seldom know of what I speak.

However, this is what I mean by things being more complex; wouldn't I be drawn back to the speed like moth to a flame because it makes me a better and more empathetic person as well as someone who enjoys doing things and actually excels at it, as opposed to now; quit sitting, quit writing, quit hanging out with people et cetera.

But no, I know I never will go back and I don't even have weak moments when I contemplate it. It's strange because I can't quit stuffing my face with sugar.

Oh my Lord now it became a personal confession and rambling. Not what the topic was about really.

Anyway, self-worth is a tricky thing as well. How and where do you apply it? In the context of social interaction or by yourself in relation to your goals and dreams and perhaps indeptness at reaching them? I don't think it's an easy question...

Karamo
03-11-15, 04:27 PM
Oh God... All the horrible spelling errors... I really apologize for them... I've never "skipped" words or misspelled things like "singing>sitting" but nowadays I do it constantly and I can't even begin to describe how horrible it feels. I can't edit the post and it makes me feel cold and I start to sweat... My mental deterioration is so apparent, I feel sick to my stomach...

Little Missy
03-11-15, 04:38 PM
Oh God... All the horrible spelling errors... I really apologize for them... I've never "skipped" words or misspelled things like "singing>sitting" but nowadays I do it constantly and I can't even begin to describe how horrible it feels. I can't edit the post and it makes me feel cold and I start to sweat... My mental deterioration is so apparent, I feel sick to my stomach...

oh goodness, it isn't that bad. I just yammer-type like all get out, do a fast cursory, slam submit and leave. Then I come back an go, "Now what???!"

We all do it.:)

Karamo
03-11-15, 08:15 PM
oh goodness, it isn't that bad. I just yammer-type like all get out, do a fast cursory, slam submit and leave. Then I come back an go, "Now what???!"

We all do it.:)

I feel, wether I want to or not, that credibility is directly and severely impacted in a negative way by poor typing/language and I'm not excempt in any way from that rule... The thing, however, which makes it cause physical anxiety, is that I never USED to do it... I can't bear the thought of mental atrophy :<

Anyway, I know I shouldn't reply to your sincere pep-post by trying to rationalize or explain my worries, sorry for that :< I appreciate it though!

Little Missy
03-11-15, 08:18 PM
I feel, wether I want to or not, that credibility is directly and severely impacted in a negative way by poor typing/language and I'm not excempt in any way from that rule... The thing, however, which makes it cause physical anxiety, is that I never USED to do it... I can't bear the thought of mental atrophy :<

Anyway, I know I shouldn't reply to your sincere pep-post by trying to rationalize or explain my worries, sorry for that :< I appreciate it though!

Oh, believe me, I'm always believing I'm into atrophy or some kind of mental decline because sometimes I can't even spell anymore or even properly put together a sentence.

Batman55
03-13-15, 12:34 AM
Oh no... I hate myself and then some. I am a horrible, horrible person and it just takes a little agitation to get me raining down thunder on everyone I love. Some people who are depressed can't away from their friends and they most certainly do not lose ALL of their empathy. I however do, and can't stand people. When I'm at my worst I'm not just "unfriendly" - I am downright evil and can't feel anything for anyone. I've lost many close friends over the last two years due to being in my deepest depression yet. I feel ashamed when I think of what I've called the people I love. I do not like myself at all, not even when I am normal, as I am now. This is part of why I tried to end my life in December last year.

To me it seems you have almost every risk factor possible for substance use and/or abuse, but still you're able to avoid it at any cost. It's a good thing. But what's your secret? How do you do it, man?

There must be *some* quality in your personality that allows you to say "no" to drugs so easily. If I may take another guess, I would suggest being a sociable or outwardly confident person (even if it's just a veneer) is certainly a help. Based on some of your posts, it seems this describes you to some degree. As well, I do consider introversion and/or social anxiety to increase likelihood of addiction significantly:

1) it makes logical sense to me
2) it's definitely been my experience

I believe had I been able to meet some of the social milestones, have a group of friends, have a romantic/sensual partner on time, or otherwise lead a socially active lifestyle (I guess such a thing as an extroverted virgin exists, although they are probably rare :D )... all this would have helped to keep me off that wayward path.

Karamo
03-13-15, 09:45 AM
To me it seems you have almost every risk factor possible for substance use and/or abuse, but still you're able to avoid it at any cost. It's a good thing. But what's your secret? How do you do it, man?

There must be *some* quality in your personality that allows you to say "no" to drugs so easily. If I may take another guess, I would suggest being a sociable or outwardly confident person (even if it's just a veneer) is certainly a help. Based on some of your posts, it seems this describes you to some degree. As well, I do consider introversion and/or social anxiety to increase likelihood of addiction significantly:

1) it makes logical sense to me
2) it's definitely been my experience

I believe had I been able to meet some of the social milestones, have a group of friends, have a romantic/sensual partner on time, or otherwise lead a socially active lifestyle (I guess such a thing as an extroverted virgin exists, although they are probably rare :D )... all this would have helped to keep me off that wayward path.

I guess the quality you speak of is having had a LOT of junkies all around me throughout my entire life; you see the speed addicts who flail like windmills with no teeth, seeing the cops everywhere. The benso-abusers who can't form a coherent sentence even if given an hour to do so. The heroinists with their postures more resembling a toppled over tree trunk.

I realize the use for speed (therapeutic dex that is) but I am WELL aware of how, when and where it goes from being therapeutic to being more.

The only success I've had in life was between late 2012 and late 2013 where I did speed everyday (once a day, same low dose, never skipping food/sleep); I loved music. I was so very creative, and not in a delusional way. I was driven and took the band so far in such a short amount of time. Girl tried to pick me up after every gig and one of them was a dancer who came to be my girlfriend whom I came to love. We did studio recordings and had a record deal pending...

But... I ****** it all up. I wanted to be able to accomplish all of this as my own person. I wanted to WANT this by myself. I wanted to be creative and like things WITHOUT either illicit drugs or meds. I tried to quit every week at this point and it made me feel so bad you'd have no idea. Then we'd have a photoshoot and I'd have to take some to be able to get out of bed. Then I'd try to quit again just to have a release-party which I HAD to attend et cetera.

This led to **** just falling apart because when I was depressed I was evil. The band split up, me and my girlfriend split up, my sister (the only sane person in my life) moved to another town and the only people I then had was my psychotic mother and uncle whom I had to live with in order to not kill myself. This is where I got the psychiatric evaluation granted and I had no obligations or responsibilities left in life so I quit in the middle of my mother and uncle doing line after line, seeing cops everywhere, trying to get me to take it and start again...

I never once fell back into it.

Now I am on a low dose of dex. It's 20mg a day which is VERY low and it doesn't make me motivated or 'undepressed' but it makes me able to get out of bed. If I don't take them I feel just as crap as when I tried to quit the illicit use. I'm just VERY predispositioned to be depressed.

It's not something that "went away" either because I was clean from anything including meds, for half a year and I could not function at all. Had no days that were better than the other... Just downright melancholic depression. My mother's mental illnesses are hereditary and usually show in late 20s, early 30s... Maybe that's what happened because doctor after doctor kept telling me that speed at my dosage is neither neurotoxic nor cause any permanent damage (to give a clearer picture of how low my doses were; I never experienced "euphoria" (titrated up from a dose so low it didn't affect me, just to avoid this particular effect), I never got jaw clench, I never got dilated pupils, I never got tremor and I never got 'chattier' and I would start to yawn at 6-8PM as most people do).

I've insisted that maybe it had a permanent effect on me because I can in no other way explain my depression but they keep saying it's because of whom I am and because nothing around me is normal/working.

So, as you say, I know very well that I am the prime example of someone who has every single criteria filled for falling back into addiction but I even though I know I will enjoy life again if I start, I won't. I rather be this depressed zombie who's days drift by without being able to find fun in anything at all, just feeling sad and hopeless, than to start doing drugs.

This I think is an important distinction to make; I really miss the person I was while on speed, YES, because it turned me into a normal person like those around me. But I get no cravings for the actual drug and I have no problem having 100 grams in a bag half a metre in front of me with people snorting it in front of my eyes. I feel nothing.

Regarding your thoughts about social interaction; I'm EXTREMELY reclusive and solitary when I feel depressed. If I'm forced into social situations when I'm down I don't get panic but I feel increasingly depressed and asocial, regardless if it's my best friends.

My normal me is extrovert when amongst people but I still have a HUGE need for privacy and being alone. I don't think many people are "one or the other". Everyone who's met me would say that I'm a "classic example of the hyperextrovert excentric" so I do portray that even if I'm introvert at my core and has spent 80% of my awake time for myself, by choice.

But as you say, having that life would more likely had kept one away from the lures of addiction. I believe what you describe is a healthy lifestyle and it applies to most people - especially 'normal' people =) We're sociable beings.

The good thing is that it's achievably to some degree by trying to be more... pliable... You never know when you'll meet people who'll change and become a big part of your life. But I don't think one should overexert oneself if extroversion is not at least somewhat natural...

Sorry for the wall of text! :O

Batman55
03-14-15, 12:02 AM
Yours is a confusing story, Karamo. The one thing I can't quite puzzle out, despite you offering repeated explanations for it, is why you won't increase your stimulant meds to a more therapeutic dose. Is it because you illicitly took high doses of these meds for a while, and you believe you're "burned out" and your recovery has to be natural (or only with a low dose) ? If that's the case, I could understand it.

But it certainly seems like--before this depression or collapse or whatever you call it--your life was finally coming together, you were getting things done, you were able to become everything (and more) that was expected of you. This is what many ADHDers, anecdotally, seem to experience when they're finally medicated for the first time.

I mean do you really think you can get out of this terrible apathetic state without taking a therapeutic dose again? To me you would only be taking meds to enable proper functionality--nothing about it seems unnatural, although you seem to differ.

I mean, I've seen quite a few stories about folks in this very forum who first have trouble when they reach college, and then they get their stimulants prescribed--otherwise, many would not graduate. This is totally natural, is it not? It is to me--I'm not sure you agree, though.

Karamo
03-14-15, 09:25 AM
Yours is a confusing story, Karamo. The one thing I can't quite puzzle out, despite you offering repeated explanations for it, is why you won't increase your stimulant meds to a more therapeutic dose. Is it because you illicitly took high doses of these meds for a while, and you believe you're "burned out" and your recovery has to be natural (or only with a low dose) ? If that's the case, I could understand it.

But it certainly seems like--before this depression or collapse or whatever you call it--your life was finally coming together, you were getting things done, you were able to become everything (and more) that was expected of you. This is what many ADHDers, anecdotally, seem to experience when they're finally medicated for the first time.

I mean do you really think you can get out of this terrible apathetic state without taking a therapeutic dose again? To me you would only be taking meds to enable proper functionality--nothing about it seems unnatural, although you seem to differ.

I mean, I've seen quite a few stories about folks in this very forum who first have trouble when they reach college, and then they get their stimulants prescribed--otherwise, many would not graduate. This is totally natural, is it not? It is to me--I'm not sure you agree, though.

Thanks for the great reply! I did not expect one because I got so personal and long-winded. But hey, maybe I'm not the only one who easily gets emotional and impulsive on these boards. I for one would never reply to me ;)

Anyway, the reason that I won't up my dose is because I know tolerance is a real thing. I have a basic understanding of how it works and I know that it also happens with therapeutic doses over time. My goal is to be totally med free (I can make an excempt for the Memantine*).

The thing is, it was the illicit speed use that facilitated my normal functioning. Before that, I had a full time job which I could BARELY handle due to being overly tired as a person. When the band then came into the picture, a once in a lifetime thing... I had to seek a way to get work + evening hobby to work out. Everyone in the band had more demanding full time jobs and always went to the gym before coming to rehearsing and they still ENJOYED making and playing music. I didn't. I did when rested but after work I just hated everything and everyone because I was so tired - this is not normal but just HAVING a job is something I've never had before so I was "functioning" better than ever in that sense.

However, now, when I take these very low doses of dex, I don't get up to what used to be my normal level (I'm talking from teens to age of 28). I've ALWAYS been interested in learning new things, trying out new things and if something was interesting, I could hyperfocus sometime and really enjoy it. I haven't been able to since I quit speed and gone through the ADHD-med/psych spiral.

So the meds allow me to make one or two posts a day on these boards but the horrible truth is the comedown and THAT is what steers me way clear of ever raising the dose; I take my last a dose after noon and around 4-5PM I start to dip in mood and ability and nothing interests me at all anymore. I fall back to my "now normal" self with suicidal ideation and no drive or hope.

A higher dose would most likely get me to feel positive towards searching for a new job, maybe start singing again... But the nights would be the polar opposite and this is the thing; I can't live life with an artificial me liking things and then go to suicidal depression. It's a span that won't work for ANYONE. I have gradually lost the sense of who I am because of these daily fluctuations.

*Memantine; I was prescribed Memantine a while ago by insisting on it myself. Took a while and I had to change doctors to get it done but in just a week, it has done wonders. I can now reduce the dose dex and get the same efficacy - tolerance has basically vanished! I am also much more clear headed. It has no effect on mood however.

But for as long as amphetamines are in my system I fear nightfall and live a life of artificially induced borderline -_-;

Again, wall of text! It's uncanny, really xD

sarahsweets
03-14-15, 09:49 AM
Karamo: I'm just curious do you think the tolerance factor is a result of your past drug use? I just know that for me, Ive been taking stimulants for 10 years and never had an issue with tolerance, not saying you dont have tolerance Im just curious. Also, why do you want to be med free? Is it because you want to make it on your own or something else? For me, I would be absolutely reckless and a danger driving among other things if i wasnt medicated.

Karamo
03-14-15, 11:32 AM
Karamo: I'm just curious do you think the tolerance factor is a result of your past drug use? I just know that for me, Ive been taking stimulants for 10 years and never had an issue with tolerance, not saying you dont have tolerance Im just curious. Also, why do you want to be med free? Is it because you want to make it on your own or something else? For me, I would be absolutely reckless and a danger driving among other things if i wasnt medicated.

I do believe that I have a tolerance since my past use, I do not doubt that. I do know that the doses I used, while not "junkie" doses, were in fact higher than those I use therapeutically - I would get calm but my debilitating fatigue would be gone until nightfall and so I would be able to fall asleep without sleeping aids and whatnot.

After having used daily for a year, I quit by using dex for a while (the exact same ones I use today, but back then I got them from a friend who wanted to help me). I used 20mg a day and got a very good effect. Keep in mind this was when my tolerance as such would have been at an all time high. Quitting entirely followed after a week or so.

Now, having been drug free for over a year, my mental well being has plummeted - I am way worse now than I was while quitting/recovering back then. I am now on 20mg dex and it has NOWHERE close to the efficacy it had back when I supposedly had my highest tolerance of all.

And I am using supplements in forms of NMDA antagonists (chelated magnesium and Memantine) which really DO drop tolerance.

The thing is, my fatigue is barely affected by the dex.

The explanation for this, the only one I can get behind, is that back then I came from having a life I liked, filled with activity and creativity so my baseline mood and neurochemical levels were way, WAY higher than they are today. So, even if I were to go back to illicit use, I would not become life-loving as I was back then even if I dosed 10 times higher (kick-seeking doses) - I would simply get all the side effects that comes with such dosing just to not feel much better.

So tolerance is a tricky, tricky thing to explain since it depends on oh so many factors and not everyone reacts the same way as well as tolerance is not one "entity" - it can affect different parts of effect while not others. A good example of factual tolerance is that most people lose their appetite and have trouble sleeping initially. This goes away after some time and food/sleep goes back to where it was before while the increased ability to focus remains. This is de facto tolerance to the outside substance having been established. You see where I'm going here? =)

Anyway, why I don't want meds - I've seen how many people have rationalized their use and become totally unaware of how it has affected them over time and altered the image of how they were "before they started" to more accomodate the image of who they are now. I pride myself on my self-awareness (as well as curse it on a daily basis) so I can't go down that road, even if I had wanted to.

I used to LOVE playing video games - when I think about how excited I was about it back then I will get the actual SMELL in my nose and start crying t_T. I was so interested in things and really loved what I did - even if I couldn't sustain focus nor stay awake for very long. I was NEVER, EVER bored.

So that's why - I know who I was before and I had my very debilitating troubles but I did enjoy life and had LOTS of hobbies. So I must get back there because I was that person for 28 years.

Now I have no hobbies at all. I can't find fun in anything. I can't motivate myself to make food so I rather go hungry (I've dropped down to 60kg) because I see no point in anything.

And I don't want to take dex just to "survive one more day" because 20mg a day makes me do just that - I still don't find things enjoyable but I'm not suicidal til nightfall and NOW I DO need sleeping pills - which I have never EVER had to use before. I would estimate that 40-45mg would put temporarily make me enjoy things as much as I used to before but it's not me. It's artificial and tolerance builds the fastest to the mood enhancing effect of amphetamines.

So I rather be my old life-liking but super ADHD'y me who couldn't hold a job than to be medicated.

But problem is, I've had so many months 'clean' that every single doctor says my depression can't be due to the amphetamine use - even the one doctor I had who thought I was "a junkie just as everyone who IVs".

So riddle me this...

If I somehow, magically, get back to where I was, you know, a better place in life, I would consider dex if I'm still unable to function independantly, but I would do so with extreme caution. I think I am just more susceptible to depression than most people.

Wall of text #3 xD