View Full Version : What is behaviour?


mildadhd
03-23-15, 08:30 AM
What is behavior scientifically?

(Looking for a scientific explanation or definition of behavior)

Thoughts appreciated.


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TygerSan
03-23-15, 10:02 PM
Hmm. . . I would say the way that psychologists define it is any observable activity exhibited by an organism in response to a stimulus (either external or internal).

Generally, it has to be something that is both observable and quantifiable in order for it to be scientifically valuable.

mildadhd
03-24-15, 12:09 AM
Hmm. . . I would say the way that psychologists define it is any observable activity exhibited by an organism in response to a stimulus (either external or internal).

Generally, it has to be something that is both observable and quantifiable in order for it to be scientifically valuable.

Thanks

emotional affective behaviors

homeostatic affective behaviors

sensory affective behaviors


Opinions?


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mildadhd
03-24-15, 08:54 AM
Hmm. . . I would say the way that psychologists define it is any observable activity exhibited by an organism in response to a stimulus (either external or internal).

Generally, it has to be something that is both observable and quantifiable in order for it to be scientifically valuable.

Interestingly "any observable activity" is a sensory affective behavior.

It seems as though all 3 sensory, emotional and homeostatic affective behaviors would be interconnected, with emphasis on which ever is the main topic at hand?


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TygerSan
03-24-15, 09:49 AM
Well, given that homeostatic refers to maintaining balance, I would say that most behaviors are in a sense homeostatic, at least in the beginning. Those that don't maintain homeostasis of some kind or other (maladaptive) would most likely be addictive behavior of some sort. In that case, it is the stimulus/feedback mechanism that breaks leaving a sort of runaway train situation.

One of the reasons I'm really ambivalent about applied behavior analysis for neurological disorders is that it is really easy to ignore the true antecedent or reason for the behavior. Extinguishing a self regulatory behavior like rocking or hand flapping without providing an appropriate substitute just seems like a sure way to traumatize a kid and/or pave the way for an epic meltdown later on.

SB_UK
03-24-15, 10:59 AM
Hmm. . . I would say the way that psychologists define it is any observable activity exhibited by an organism in response to a stimulus (either external or internal).

Generally, it has to be something that is both observable and quantifiable in order for it to be scientifically valuable.

A thought is about as real as it gets to us - but is neither observable nor quantifiable.
Psychology (which if psychology is meant to be something to do with the mind) is going to get itself in a bit of a mess if it holds too tightly onto science.

SB_UK
03-24-15, 11:00 AM
I think that science (material world measurement) does not like it's own subservience to thought.

SB_UK
03-24-15, 11:16 AM
what is behaviour ?

something rewarding which promotes survival.<- good
something rewarding which doesn't promote survival. <-bad

SB_UK
03-24-15, 11:20 AM
(spontaneous) behaviour is (defined by) (anticipated) reward [pleasure] or avoiding (anticipated) pain [DUALITY of pleasure/pain] ? until no reward [bliss state - unipolar state is attained] is required (loss of material world attachment) to live.

I don't think any form of life is programmed to desire its own demise.

Through pursuit of money/power though - human beings (the wrong reward system) appear to be doing it by proxy.

Unmanagable
03-24-15, 02:22 PM
It just struck me as being pretty damn bothersome....how my behavior is so openly and deeply judged and "diagnosed" by complete strangers who use selective and random memory from what they gained out of books to determine my quality of life in seeking help for my varied "improper" responses to the chaotic environment we've all created. Helps to confirm the need to stay on top of my own stuff, especially within the professional arenas, even more stringently.

mildadhd
03-24-15, 08:11 PM
Well, given that homeostatic refers to maintaining balance, I would say that most behaviors are in a sense homeostatic, at least in the beginning. Those that don't maintain homeostasis of some kind or other (maladaptive) would most likely be addictive behavior of some sort. In that case, it is the stimulus/feedback mechanism that breaks leaving a sort of runaway train situation.

One of the reasons I'm really ambivalent about applied behavior analysis for neurological disorders is that it is really easy to ignore the true antecedent or reason for the behavior. Extinguishing a self regulatory behavior like rocking or hand flapping without providing an appropriate substitute just seems like a sure way to traumatize a kid and/or pave the way for an epic meltdown later on.

Thanks,

Thirsty, hungry, hypothermia, etc, are examples of homeostatic affective behaviors

Seeking, fearing, playing , etc, are examples of emotional affective behaviors

Seeing, hearing, touching, etc are examples of sensory affective behaviors


The goal of all 3 emotional affective behavior, homeostatic affective behavior and sensory affective behavior biological response systems is homeostasis.

All behaviors evolved from 3 primary emotional, homeostatic and sensory affects (feelings).

All 3 primary emotional, homeostatic, and sensory affective response systems are interconnected.

Emphasis on emotional affects because of the biological response systems psychological value in understanding ADHD related feelings and thoughts.




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namazu
03-24-15, 09:12 PM
Thirsty, hungry, hypothermia, etc, are examples of homeostatic affective behaviors
Wouldn't those three (thirst, hunger, hypothermia) be more internal feelings or body states or sensations? (I don't really know if those terms have technical definitions, so I'm just using them as a layperson.)

Then a person might do something (behave in a way) to seek water, food, or warmth -- like go get a drink, grab something to eat, put on a coat or light a fire -- in order to preserve homeostasis.

mildadhd
03-24-15, 10:24 PM
Here is a more technical example of interoception.

Abstract
Converging evidence indicates that primates have a distinct cortical image of homeostatic afferent activity that reflects all aspects of the physiological condition of all tissues of the body. This interoceptive system, associated with autonomic motor control, is distinct from the exteroceptive system (cutaneous mechanoreception and proprioception) that guides somatic motor activity. The primary interoceptive representation in the dorsal posterior insula engenders distinct highly resolved feelings from the body that include pain, temperature, itch, sensual touch, muscular and visceral sensations, vasomotor activity, hunger, thirst, and ‘air hunger’. In humans, a meta-representation of the primary interoceptive activity is engendered in the right anterior insula, which seems to provide the basis for the subjective image of the material self as a feeling (sentient) entity, that is, emotional awareness.


Interoception: the sense of the physiological condition of the body. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12965300)



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someothertime
03-25-15, 07:57 AM
"patterns / undertakings which can be commonly / repeatedly observed?" .... "usually in response or to bring about a result?"

mildadhd
03-25-15, 09:02 AM
What behaviours would exists without the core biological response systems?


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mildadhd
03-25-15, 09:08 AM
I think that science (material world measurement) does not like it's own subservience to thought.


Feelings exist without thought.

Thought does not exist without feelings

Thoughts are very important, especially in treatment, but without feelings, there would be no thought.



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TygerSan
03-25-15, 09:34 AM
Wouldn't those three (thirst, hunger, hypothermia) be more internal feelings or body states or sensations? (I don't really know if those terms have technical definitions, so I'm just using them as a layperson.)

Then a person might do something (behave in a way) to seek water, food, or warmth -- like go get a drink, grab something to eat, put on a coat or light a fire -- in order to preserve homeostasis

Exactly this. Thirst would be a motivation/drive (internal state) that facilitates behaviors of drinking/ seeking water or other liquids. Behavior is always an observable response to a stimulus (external or internal). Strict behaviorists would say every stimulus has to be external (environmental) but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a scientist who is a strict behaviorist anymore.

namazu
03-25-15, 06:34 PM
Exactly this. Thirst would be a motivation/drive (internal state) that facilitates behaviors of drinking/ seeking water or other liquids. Behavior is always an observable response to a stimulus (external or internal). Strict behaviorists would say every stimulus has to be external (environmental) but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a scientist who is a strict behaviorist anymore.

TygerSan, do you happen to know...with new imaging technologies (e.g. fMRI), how has the definition of "observable response" been adapted? (Or has that definition not quite caught up to the tools?)

Or is it responses that are observable without special tools (where defining special tools could itself be sticky, I guess)? Does outward body movement have to be involved?

TygerSan
03-25-15, 09:14 PM
There are definitely neural correlates of behavior, but I'm not sure that imaging itself is good enough to predict overt behavior in the traditional sense. If we get to the point where the predictive validity of omaging is such that they are one and the same we may have to broaden the definition. I guess for me there does need to be some overt movement.

mildadhd
03-25-15, 10:10 PM
"Brains begin building conscious minds not at the level of the cerebral cortex but rather at the level of the brain stem.

Primordial feelings are not only the first images generated by the brain but also immediate manifestations of sentience.

They are the protoself foundation for more complex levels of self.

These ideas run counter to widely accepted views, although Jaak Panksepp (cited earlier) has defended a comparable position and so has Rodolfo Llinas.

But the conscious mind as we know it is a far different affair from the conscious mind that emerges in the brain stem, and on this point there probably is universal agreement.

The cerebral cortices endow the mind-making process with a profusion of images that, as Hamlet might put it, go far beyond anything that poor Horatio could ever dream of, in heaven and earth."



"Conscious minds begin when self comes to mind, when brains add a self process to the mind mix, modestly at first but quite robustly later.

The self is built in distinct steps grounded on the protoself.

The first step is the generation of primordial feelings, the elementary feelings of existence that spring spontaneously from the protoself.

Next is the core self.

The core self is about action--specifically, about a relationship between the organism and the object.

The core self unfolds in a sequence of images that describe an object engaging the protoself and modifying that protoself, including its primordial feelings.

Finally, there is the autobiographical self.

This self is defined in terms of biographical knowledge pertaining to the past as well as the anticipated future.

The multiple images whose ensemble defines a biography generate pulses of core self whose aggregate constitutes an autobiographical self."..


Antonio Damasio, "Self Comes To Mind", "Constructing The Conscious Brain", (Chapter: "Awakenings", A Preview of Main Ideas) p 23-24.


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mildadhd
03-25-15, 10:21 PM
I think that science (material world measurement) does not like it's own subservience to thought.

The ability for us to have this discussion requires thoughts.

The ability to have thoughts requires feelings.

Opinions?


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mildadhd
03-25-15, 10:27 PM
what is behaviour ?

something rewarding which promotes survival.<- good
something rewarding which doesn't promote survival. <-bad

Thanks,

Emotional, sensory and homeostatic rewards that promote survival <-good

Emotional, sensory and homeostatic rewards that do not promote survival <-bad





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mildadhd
03-25-15, 10:32 PM
It just struck me as being pretty damn bothersome....how my behavior is so openly and deeply judged and "diagnosed" by complete strangers who use selective and random memory from what they gained out of books to determine my quality of life in seeking help for my varied "improper" responses to the chaotic environment we've all created. Helps to confirm the need to stay on top of my own stuff, especially within the professional arenas, even more stringently.

What I am interested in is the biological response systems all people have in common, that respond to the stimulus.



P

mildadhd
03-25-15, 10:44 PM
TECHNIQUE of electrical stimulation of subcortical structures developed by one of us (Hess *) is particularly suited to studies of the central organization of behavioral mechanisms. In the sequence of systematic investigations of the diencephalon and adjacent structures of the forebrain and mesencephalon (summarized by me* in 1949) several thousand "points" were explored. The effects of electrical stimulation (cinematographically recorded) were correlated with the localizations of the needle tips (controlled by histological analysis). Among the various effects elicited were some, of particular note, which consisted of characteristic changes in the total attitude of the animals. The changes observed were best compared with alterations seen in emotional states of normal animals, such as fear, anger, and pleasure, or with certain drives, such as explorative tendencies, feeding tendencies, cleaning tendencies, and continuous restlessness...

EXPERIMENTAL DATA ON ROLE OF HYPOTHALAMUS IN MECHANISM OF EMOTIONAL BEHAVIOR (http://archneurpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=651925)



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someothertime
03-25-15, 11:46 PM
What I am interested in is the biological response systems all people have in common, that respond to the stimulus.

P

This may be tangential.... but.........

I've been curious along a similar line of late...... was thinking of "Anxiety" at the root what is it..... etc. etc........ my investigation took me to a word / thing that is more root and may help here ( your line of inquiry )....

CONTROL

it's interesting..... with all the upper behavioral and emotional discussions and learnings that this hasn't jumped out more..... i mean..... there are the flow ons.....
but it seems to be rooted in this.........

aka

... fight or flight..... control

so you may also wish to persue some questions about why ( apart from survival - or on a more modern developmental level ) humans are so linked to control..... and the processes that drive / are effected by lack of this.... etc



Peace!

mildadhd
03-26-15, 09:18 AM
This may be tangential.... but.........

I've been curious along a similar line of late...... was thinking of "Anxiety" at the root what is it..... etc. etc........ my investigation took me to a word / thing that is more root and may help here ( your line of inquiry )....

CONTROL

it's interesting..... with all the upper behavioral and emotional discussions and learnings that this hasn't jumped out more..... i mean..... there are the flow ons.....
but it seems to be rooted in this.........

aka

... fight or flight..... control

so you may also wish to persue some questions about why ( apart from survival - or on a more modern developmental level ) humans are so linked to control..... and the processes that drive / are effected by lack of this.... etc



Peace!

Thanks,

Great idea,

I actually started this thread after reading your thread about control.

Biologically there are 3 processing levels of control.

In the early years secondary and tertiary processing levels of control are built upon the primary state/processing level of control.

Understanding the primary level of control is essential to understanding, secondary and tertiary levels of control.

Got to go to work, I am really interested in discussing control, in this thread and/or your thread more.


Control < Executive Function - Facilitating Action (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169389)


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someothertime
03-26-15, 11:06 AM
Checked out wiki control: ( this is social.... very interesting none the less ).... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control

of note: Attempted "regulation" and surprise surprise "behavior"......

Led to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political) Power

shoutout to SB...

No doubt of note: "ability to effect desired outcomes....."

Power as Enabling or Disabling: Power can be enabling or disabling. Research has been shown that people are more likely to have an enduring influence on others when they engage in dominant behavior that reflects social skill rather than intimidation. Personal power is protective against pressure and excessive influence by others and/or situational stress. People who communicate through self-confidence and expressive, composed behavior tend to be successful in achieving their goals and maintaining good relationships. Power can be disabling when it leads to destructive patterns of communication. This can lead to the chilling effect where the less powerful person often hesitates to communicate dissatisfaction, and the demand withdrawal pattern which is when one person makes demands and the other becomes defensive and withdraws. Both effects have negative consequences for relational satisfaction.


Led to this which i found extremely interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Adler

On addiction[edit]
Adler's insight into birth order, compensation and issues relating the individuals' perception of community also led him to investigate the causes and treatment of substance abuse disorders, particularly alcoholism and morphinism, which already were serious social problems of his time. Adler's work with addicts was significant since most other prominent proponents of psychoanalysis invested relatively little time and thought into this widespread ill of the modern and post-modern age. In addition to applying his individual psychology approach of organ inferiority, for example, to the onset and causes of addictive behaviours, he also tried to find a clear relationship of drug cravings to sexual gratification or their substitutions. Early pharmaco-therapeutic interventions with non-addictive substances, such as neuphyllin were used, since withdrawal symptoms were explained by a form of "water-poisoning" that made the use of diuretics necessary. Adler and his wife's pragmatic approach, and the seemingly high success rates of their treatment were based on their ideas of social functioning and well-being. Clearly, life style choices and situations were emphasized, for example the need for relaxation or the negative effects of early childhood conflicts were examined, which compared to other authoritarian or religious treatment regimens, were clearly modern approaches. Certainly some of his observations, for example that psychopaths were more likely to be drug addicts are not compatible with current methodologies and theories of substance abuse treatment, but the self-centred attributes of the illness and the clear escapism from social responsibilities by pathological addicts put Adler's treatment modalities clearly into a modern contextual reasoning.[44]

This guy is a pioneer..... his gut KNOWS adhd... / related..... truly amazing..... When you look at his study areas..... very very very insightful.... oh no!!! i just read the paragraphs underneath that which are WAY off... and not relavant here.... so if this person triggers reaction to some on those theories.... apologies!


Sorry for jumping all over the place......

My thoughts.... comfort = control / stability < power - efficacy... aka...

systems to cognitively diverse ( read socially and systematically non-native ) = handicap in comfort / self efficacy > no steady ground / platform to effect.....

So, behavior is ANYTHING that will bring about desired need/want... aka... in a kinda twisted way... it is almost always connected to control, or lack of ability to etc.

We have fewer means of control in complex / external realms... thus redirection internally / tangentially.... > "uncommon behavior" ... in a most social contexts > invalidated via mode.

G.Debord
03-26-15, 05:26 PM
What is behavior scientifically?

(Looking for a scientific explanation or definition of behavior)

Thoughts appreciated.


P

I don't think there is one scientific definition. Different disciplines might use the idea and might provide a more precise definition, if one is called for, that works in that context. So in 'science' people might talk about chemical behavior, magnetic behavior, social behavior, etc, but I'm not sure if one definition could work for all of them. Though there are resemblances of course. It's a very interesting philosophical question.

SB_UK
03-29-15, 12:04 PM
a clear relationship of drug cravings to sexual gratification or their substitutions.


- back around to reward from pair-bond formation

SB_UK
03-29-15, 12:13 PM
mind <- PERIPHERAL HOMEOSTASIS (PSYCH STRESS) <- SYSTEMATIZING BELOW
pair-bond <- PERIPHERAL EMOTIONAL <- EMPATHIC BELOW
informational quality (music,art) -< PERIPHERAL SENSORY <- SENSORY BELOW


ADHD [== sensitivity at empathic, systematizing and sensory levels]

SB_UK
03-29-15, 12:16 PM
so 3 reward systems complete ? = wisdom

not just mind but via pair-bond + capacity to derive reward from info
- all simultaneously

wisdom,enligtenment,self-actualization ?

SB_UK
03-29-15, 12:23 PM
so they're the 3 which keep coming up

- as for food eg gourmand -> gourmet [higher - sensory reward]

as for relationships
- promiscuity -> pair-bond

exercise
- for vanity (steroid build) -> for health (aerobic fitness) [homeostasis reward ie aerobic respiration - water generation]


So - thing is that we can't split the big 3 higher reward systems - need to accomplish all 3 - buys freedom from need for reward -

freedom <- definition.

The freedom which human beings have been aspiring towards is revealed through pursuit of those 3 paths.

Mind which knows right from wrong
Pair-bond formation
The capacity to discern quality

SB_UK
03-29-15, 12:28 PM
Mind which knows right from wrong
Pair-bond formation
The capacity to discern quality

Adder = old souls nearing enlightenment so simply

prediposition [sensitivity] to 3 properties above.

SB_UK
03-29-15, 12:35 PM
what happens next ?

post-enlightenment

exercise in the sun + dog

- it's how we evolved:
http://aahhtt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Zulu_Tribesmen_hunting_with_their_dogs_1953_africa nisCoZa.jpg

- there's nothing left to achieve
- no inner compulsion left to satisfy

- we have secured permission to stand down
- achieved freedom from ourself.

mildadhd
03-29-15, 11:34 PM
( instinctual order of development from the bottom up control, first )

SEEK and PLAY instinctual unconditioned emotional response systems (primary level of control, pre experience-ancestrial mind)

"This is a general principle: Play only occurs when one is safe, secure and feeling good, which makes play an exceptionally sensitive measure for all things bad." (See quotes below)

Why does a PLAY urge exist?

It it probably enables the young to learn nonsocial physical skills like hunting, foraging, and so on.

It is also surely important for acquiring many social capacities, especially nascent aggressive, courting, sexual, and in some species, competitive and perhaps even parenting skills.

It may be an essential force for the construction of the many higher functions of our social brains.

Playful activities may help young animals learn to identify individuals with whom they can develop and cooperative relationships and to know who they should avoid.

They surely learn through play when they can dominate social interactions and when they should gracefully disengage, submit or accept defeat.

Play can also have a darker side.

When animals play, they may learn whom they can bully and who can bully them.

In short, the brain's PLAY networks may help stitch individuals into the stratified social fabric that will be the staging ground for their lives, and these networks may also prepare them to handle various unexpected events that life will surely throw their way (Spinka et al., 2001)


The PLAY urge is both robust and fragile.

It is fragile because a great number of environmental manipulations can reduce play--including all events that evoke negative emotional states such as anger, fear, pain, and separation distress; it is especially sensitive to species-typical fear stimuli such as the smell of predators for rats (Panksepp, 1998a, Fig. 1.1; Siviy et al., 2006).

For instance, if a laboratory researcher has a pet cat at home, and he is not careful to change his clothes before going to work, he will have a difficult time studying the play of rats because the odor of cats intrinsically scares rats, and fearful rats simply do not play.

Likewise, rats are scared of well-lit open spaces; they play in safe burrows, away from the attentions of predators.

In addition, hunger is a powerful inhibitor of play (Siviy & Panksepp, 1985), as are may other bodily imbalances, including of course, illness.

This is a general principle: Play only occurs when one is safe, secure and feeling good, which makes play an exceptionally sensitive measure for all things bad.

PLAY, however, is also a robust system:

If young animals are healthy and feeling good, they almost invariably play together when given the chance.




Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter: PLAYful Dreamlike Circuits of the Brain, P 354-355.





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mildadhd
03-30-15, 12:33 AM
Ironically

What Dogs Need: PLAY and SEEKING

Dog fears and aggression can be hard to figure out sometimes, but dog joy isn't.

Just about anyone who's lived with a dog knows what dogs like.

In terms of the core emotions, dogs need:

-social contact so their PANIC system doesn't get activated

-games and play with their owners to activate the SEEKING system

-interesting things to do--especially long walks--that arouse their SEEKING system


-Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", Chapter "A Dog's Life", P 64.



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someothertime
03-30-15, 01:57 AM
games and play with their owners to activate the SEEKING system

-interesting things to do--especially long walks--that arouse their SEEKING system


P


Preface: I know animal comparison/s have potential to cause dismay. Personally, unless someone is strongly asserting an exact correlation, i believe they are intended to help the reader understand.... fin.

Anyone care to explain or elaborate how such a process might unfold in a human. Quite curious about this. I mean i've talked about negative coping. feedback of experience, emotional..... which is unavoidable no matter the experience....

I'm often very generalist when it comes to "facilitating" and ADDer and, in the past this was more in relation to mode ( approach / method ) and interaction / feedback.....

I almost curious if it is that same unbridled SEEKING system..... that syncopates within a negative feedback loop or behavioral "faux-pas".

But yes...... any words that might tie in a persons SEEKING experience with other development / self-regulation -> behavior...


:)

SB_UK
03-30-15, 10:55 AM
mind <- PERIPHERAL HOMEOSTASIS (PSYCH STRESS) <- SYSTEMATIZING BELOW
pair-bond <- PERIPHERAL EMOTIONAL <- EMPATHIC BELOW
informational quality (music,art) -< PERIPHERAL SENSORY <- SENSORY BELOW


ADHD [== sensitivity at empathic, systematizing and sensory levels]


The secret of what really motivates people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

mind <- PERIPHERAL HOMEOSTASIS (PSYCH STRESS) <- SYSTEMATIZING BELOW <- PURPOSE [requires a mind (complete) <- a complete mind is a mind with enforced moral consistency]

pair-bond <- PERIPHERAL EMOTIONAL <- EMPATHIC BELOW <- AUTONOMY [pair-bond formation as the autonomous unit eg standing wave]

informational quality (music,art) -< PERIPHERAL SENSORY <- SENSORY BELOW <- MASTERY [development of quality sensing neural machinery]

Behaviour <- relates to reward [see Someothertime comment above of relation ie behaviour through anticipated reward]

Reward is another word for motivation

On achieving the above 3 states (completion of mind, completion of pair-bond and ?? completion of quality sensing ?? <- don't know what this last one means) -> there's no need for further reward.
Motivation without condtion ie to feel reward through simple existence.

Unipolar state of bliss.

SB_UK
03-30-15, 11:10 AM
So - purpose - autonomy - mastery are often interpreted in a slightly different way eg becoming a great musician (mastery) to create music (autonomy) to make people happy (purpose)

- but there's a real problem with this form of interpretation of autonomy - mastery - purpose -

- because it never ends ie you don't ever get to 'sign off' and enjoy existence without achieving something.

IE there's no freedom from this form of autonomy - mastery - purpose.

A better approach is
autonomy - pair-bond completion
purpose - completion of mind
mastery - to develop personal quality with respect to eg

self-actualization -> a life of bliss interspersed with moments of super bliss

super bliss = peak experience
http://psychology.about.com/od/humanist-personality/f/peak-experiences.htm

What is peak experience ?
cf musical chills

just information activating the reward system

But what decides whether information will activate the reward system

Personal experience - being in the sun helps.

?? Sun - b-endorphin
http://hms.harvard.edu/news/addicted-sun-6-19-14
+
Information - dopamine cf musical chills
http://mentalfloss.com/article/51745/why-does-music-give-us-chills
->

wikiP/speedball

So - the goal is to use information [UV, sensory information] to float our boat ?

Abi
03-30-15, 11:18 AM
Sb come see me on FB chatty please.

SB_UK
03-30-15, 11:29 AM
so

cheese sandwich [glutamate, caseomorphin + gluten exorphin] <- material world reward - addictive

vs

exercising in sun - not addictive

[B]It's all about (materialism to beauty) survival.

SB_UK
03-30-15, 11:31 AM
Sb come see me on FB chatty please.


gotta' go to eco village meeting in a few mins @ 5.30 pm in 1 hr - back soon ... ...
ps meeting 45 mins away by bike

http://clfcvillage.org/

SAY NO TO FOSSIL FUEL !!

mildadhd
03-31-15, 08:40 PM
Preface: I know animal comparison/s have potential to cause dismay. Personally, unless someone is strongly asserting an exact correlation, i believe they are intended to help the reader understand.... fin.

Anyone care to explain or elaborate how such a process might unfold in a human. Quite curious about this. I mean i've talked about negative coping. feedback of experience, emotional..... which is unavoidable no matter the experience....

I'm often very generalist when it comes to "facilitating" and ADDer and, in the past this was more in relation to mode ( approach / method ) and interaction / feedback.....

I almost curious if it is that same unbridled SEEKING system..... that syncopates within a negative feedback loop or behavioral "faux-pas".

But yes...... any words that might tie in a persons SEEKING experience with other development / self-regulation -> behavior...


:)

I am learning a lot in this thread.

Some behavior related terminology somewhat for the first time.

There is lots of topics posted in this thread, that I would like review more, when I get time to consider the information more.

Fascinating stuff.

Everyone's observations are really appreciated.


Here is A SHORT HISTORY OF THE SEEKING SYSTEM (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1611277&postcount=1).


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mildadhd
04-01-15, 09:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

We always seem to be discussing similar topics but focusing on different levels of control.


Understanding how the SEEKING system works and interacts, helps to explain scientifically the paradoxes in this video, and other related ADHD medication paradoxes, etc.

P


In everyday life, the MFB-LH, along with the rest of the SEEKING system, is typically more aroused when animals are in a state of homeostatic imbalance, but it is the ready availability of goodies in the world ("incentive stimuli," as scientists put it) that really turns the system on.

Everyone knows that all the major homeostatic imbalances of the body feel unpleasant.

Conversely, interacting with incentive stimuli, which evoke the delightful feelings of ingesting rewards, not only predicts restoration of homeostasis, but also provokes experiences of pleasure (Cabanac, 1992).

But "the reward system" is not doing that for us.

It is doing something equally important--it is allowing us to pursue rewards with gusto.

SEEKING, a much better name for this system, generates the overridding sense of expectant euphoria that prompts people and animals to search for the resources that they need.

This system not only helps animals satisfy bodily needs but also, as we now know, many other higher-order emotional needs, ranging from a desire for money and information to music and other aesthetic experiences.


See A SHORT HISTORY OF THE SEEKING SYSTEM
(http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1611277&postcount=1) for a more in deepth summary.

Would like to discuss this all more, got to go to work now.


Later P


P

mildadhd
04-01-15, 08:06 PM
The dopaminergic pathways (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways) of the SEEKING system are more stimulated while searching reward.

When the brain receives reward the SEEKING behavior temporarily calms.





P

SB_UK
04-02-15, 03:19 AM
Excellent

SEEKING

'who once were lost and now are found'

We're programmed to 'get' some place - (liberty, equality, fraternity) - but instead of pursuit of loss of self - pursue as much self as possible and lose ourselves more so in the process ... ...

Just an individual's relationship to him/her self - like oneself too much and we die in a pit of self loathing.

After and Before cosmetic surgery

http://www.brianandjillshow.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/ep-1138/11_stretch_face_dr_who.jpg

SB_UK
04-02-15, 03:20 AM
So the goal is to reach a destination - ie switch off the need for securing reward.

And it's attained - most significantly through knowing what's right.

Alongside pair-bonding formation and developing an appreciation of quality.

Pirsig's 'enquiry into morals' + 'metaphysics of quality' + 'Lila - stabilization through pair-bond' ... ...

"Lila is the Anima figure which has become dissociated and needs taking care of."

And the ADHD problems - stress, immune problems, eating issues, diabesity etc etc are just self-medication in those forced through society to pursue other (opposite) goals.

Simplest possible statement

- goal to lose oneself into an understanding of the interconnected nature of reality and one's place within it (cf permaculture) ... ... as opposed to an understanding of reality as oneself separate from reality - standing over it, as if one has conquered it.

Exactly as described permaculture vs agricultre ... here ...

http://ecowatch.com/2015/03/17/inhabit-permaculture-perspective/

SB_UK
04-02-15, 04:03 AM
mind <- PERIPHERAL HOMEOSTASIS (PSYCH STRESS) <- SYSTEMATIZING BELOW <- PURPOSE [requires a mind (complete) <- a complete mind is a mind with enforced moral consistency]

pair-bond <- PERIPHERAL EMOTIONAL <- EMPATHIC BELOW <- AUTONOMY [pair-bond formation as the autonomous unit eg standing wave]

informational quality (music,art) -< PERIPHERAL SENSORY <- SENSORY BELOW <- MASTERY [development of quality sensing neural machinery]





Pirsig's 'enquiry into morals' + 'metaphysics of quality' + 'Lila - stabilization through pair-bond' ... ... mind <- PERIPHERAL HOMEOSTASIS (PSYCH STRESS) <- SYSTEMATIZING BELOW <- PURPOSE [requires a mind (complete) <- a complete mind is a mind with enforced moral consistency] <-
Pirsig's 'enquiry into morals'

pair-bond <- PERIPHERAL EMOTIONAL <- EMPATHIC BELOW <- AUTONOMY [pair-bond formation as the autonomous unit eg standing wave] <- Pirsig's 'Lila - stabilization through pair-bond'

informational quality (music,art) -< PERIPHERAL SENSORY <- SENSORY BELOW <- MASTERY [development of quality sensing neural machinery]
<- Pirsig's 'metaphysics of quality'


-*-

So the three above are (unsurprisingly) the goals in life - and they're to be contrasted against what we observe in a capitalist society of

low quality (eg pop music, Hollywood movies)
promiscuity/marriage breakdown
pursuit of money (intrinsically immoral)

ie we've 2 basic behaviours which we can pursue - and we're right in the middle of a society which is in pursuit of the wrong 'rewarding' behaviours - resulting in a society which collapses - resulting in stress - self-medication which drives the disorder in (most notably) the sensitive (highly sensitive person) ADDer.

-*-

What's the key difference between ADDer and nonADDer ?

Stabile - evolution works by 'scaling' a structure and so the core difference will be a mechanism of formation of logical structure (underlying neural also) which represents the shift from

unit
bipolar
trigonal <- eg graphite
-to-
tetrahedral <- eg diamond

So - graphite has no big picture logical consistency.
The planes of graphite which rub past one another are examples of doublethink capacity ie ability to hold 2 contradictory thoughts without cognitive dissonance ie they're effectively partitioned in the mind/brain

whereas in ADHD - we can't field a disconnected view of ANYTHING ... ... leading us back into the realization of underlying interconnection of all things (Einstein's spooky action at a distance) - the realization references a mind type which can see the interconnection

- and this allows us to infer the difference between ADDer and nonADDer mind type.

ie a small logical property which connects understanding in the mind into a whole.

So the ADDer won't appear clever (nonADDer definition of clever appears to be somebody who talks over the head of other people) - but will be characterized by the capacity to speak simply.

The goal of science is to present the simplest explanatory model - whereas in this world science has become impossible intricated with silly levels of complexity.

We can thereby backtrack a connection between structure of mind and science - ie you can't be a scientist until you've a logically consistent mind ... ... whereupon one realises that the system (external world) is too difficult to manipulate - and instead what we're required to do is work with.
A globally consistent mind exposes landmines absolutely everywhere with only one path (working with nature) as the only one without danger.

Leasding us through to the shift from eg agriculture to permaculture - and the key single statement of mind - to do no harm - requiring (of course) a mind which knows what harm is (cf a personal enquiry into morality).

-*-

What's interesting about this entire argument is that we can reach it without reference to any neural or genetic structure - could have reached this understanding thousands of years ago - the problem though that we've had is that we've generated so MUCH additional information in every field that we've lost sight of the goal.

The goal is simply 'happiness - correct definition' - and instead we've pursued happiness - incorrect (selfish, addictive) definition which imprisons us ie does not set us free.

mildadhd
04-03-15, 04:58 PM
In my opinion there would be no happiness without the SEEKING system, (and 3 positive feeling, and 3 negative feeling primary unconditioned emotional response systems.)

Sometimes seeking is at least half the fun.


The ML-DA system (Fig.1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2238694/bin/nihms36162f1.jpg)) has received considerable attention due to its involvement in a range of psychological processes and neuropsychiatric diseases.

In fact, after the development of a DA theory of schizophrenia (Carlsson, 1974; 1978; Snyder, 1972; Meltzer & Stahl, 1976), additional ML-DA hypotheses have been proposed to explain addiction (Wise & Bozarth, 1981; 1987; Koob, 1992), attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) (Oades, 1987; Levy, 1991; Russel, 2000), depression (Willner, 1983a, 1983b, Dailly et al., 2004) as well as global behavioral activation (Gray, 1995) ranging from response persistence to behavioral compulsions (Salamone & Correa, 2002; Everitt & Robbins, 2005).


Behavioral Functions of the Mesolimbic Dopaminergic System: an Affective Neuroethological Perspective (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2238694/?report=classic)



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mildadhd
04-03-15, 08:15 PM
The three dominant brain systems in addiction--the opioid attachment-reward system, the dopamine-based incentive-motivation apparatus and the self-regulation areas of the prefrontal cortex--are all exquisitely fine-tuned by the environment.

To various degrees, in all addicted persons these systems are out of kilter.

The same is true, we will see, of the fourth brain-body system implicated in addiction: the stress-response mechanism.


Gabor-Mate M.D., "In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts", Chapter 18: "Trauma, Stress and the Biology of Addiction", p 188.








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TheChemicals
04-03-15, 09:04 PM
all behavior is is how you respond to others. If the others dont accept it then you are weird, stupid, aggresive, perverted, ignorant, anti social, extro, intro, quiet,errotic, erratic, scattered, violent, thuggish, apeish, loser, winner, commited, loyal, traitorous scum, dbag,... part 2 later.

endgame your behavior reflects what others think about you and you put energy into being someone else but your true self seeps out and people are like "yuck its him again"! Thas behavior.

SB_UK
04-13-15, 09:14 AM
In my opinion there would be no happiness without the SEEKING system, (and 3 positive feeling, and 3 negative feeling primary unconditioned emotional response systems.)

Sometimes seeking is at least half the fun.

P
That's interesting
In our view, the rewarding properties of drugs of abuse are, in part, caused by the activation of the SEEKING disposition, ranging from appetitive drive to persistent craving depending on the intensity of the affect.

- just written this -

The other thing to say is that once (personally,mentally) free from money (loss of addiction - transcended addictiveness potential) - the mind appears to be happy (ie receives neurochemical dopaminergic reward) in daydream. That is - you don't want to (are not compelled to) 'accomplish' anything - the point I'm making - is that happiness is revealed through overcoming the 'need' for external reward (<- this is addictiveness propensity as described by Mark Boyle in the video above) and gaining what is (in effect) the joy (reward from) daydreaming ... ... however - to be allowed to enjoy that state of mind - one must be in a community which generates its own food and zero energy shelter ... ... because if not, you are going to need to come out of daydream state to use your mind to think about something which your mind will know is pointless - for money .. to PAY.
With the use of one's mind in that way - comes stress.
Stress then drives self-medication behaviours - most notably increased food intake (comfort foods).

Point - the role of the mind (what it seeks) is to (through gaining wisdom/morality) - a separation of the individual from material world reward (limiting,addictive) to informational reward (sight,sounds = free to all).

IE under the cover we've a drive which seeks to take us 'home'.

Home can be defined as a state of existence in which sufficient reward is acquired through simply sight and sound.

SB_UK
04-13-15, 09:24 AM
So ... ... how about.

sight / sounds -> generation of neural networks -> reward [fun]
sight / sounds -> completion of specific neural networks -> reward [fun] - persistent state

That is - that half of the fun comes through putting in networks which allow sensory information to 'seed' fun, and that as the sensory networks complete - we attain a state (generally considered heaven) - in which reward (all we need) comes through simple immersion in a world of satisfying sensory information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1DDndY0FLI

-*-

The problem with mind - is that it's ever so easy to complete ie all we need is a simple evolutionary progression - and to see how it (noumenological reality) gives rise to phenomenological reality.

~
---------God---noumenological reality - nothing is simply 'elsewhere'
~<
------------- duality of phenomenolgical reality ie left and right brains, male and female

That's too easy - we need something 'more' - and that'd be the generation of internal quality sensing machinery which (in the end) opens the door simply through immersion in a sensual world.

-*-

From chemical addiction to beauty.

SB_UK
04-13-15, 09:34 AM
So what are we seeking ?
Freedom.
The promised land.

How do we get there ?
One must know what is right from what is wrong.

What's the biggest impediment ?
Not knowing what words mean ie words using in a way that you can only understand them if you're 'in the know'.

And ?
... ... and most people aren't in the know - each and every thing that human beings do appears to result in a new language in which no individual is capable of speaking more than a couple.

The result ?
Confusion.

How do we overcome the confusion ?
People need to be able to see that there are many considerations which can simply be eliminated ie which aren't required for consideration if morality is desired.

You don't need to think about anything to do with weapons (eg how many trident submarines we should have) - the answer is ALL weapons should be eliminated.
You don't need to think about the optimal legal system - no laws are required.
You don't need to think about anything to do with money/economics - money isn't required in an ideal world.
No to anything to do with chemical industries.
No to nuclear power.
No to genetic modification of anyhing.
No to anything unsustainable.

We can neatly eliminate all of thing 'things' that people become confused about as excess to requirements and end up with a model for morality.
A very simple model for morality.

Which is simply a practical implementation of equality - with no selective ownership of anything.

SB_UK
04-13-15, 10:43 AM
No to anything to do with chemical industries.
No to nuclear power.
No to genetic modification of anything.
No to anything unsustainable.


No to pharmacuticals
No to anything fossil fuel based.
No to travel (what are you looking for ?)
No to any standard agricultural procedure which requires artificial fertilizers/pesticides.
No to more than one set of green clothing (why do you need more ?)


What's left ?

Information access (high bandwidth) given away freely one person to another in a permaculture setting.

That's morality.

You and everybody else in that perfectly sustainable world are free, equal.
Everything you generate (from art to music) is given to all others for free without expectation or need for any form of material reward.

Abi
04-13-15, 10:48 AM
http://www.brianandjillshow.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/ep-1138/11_stretch_face_dr_who.jpg

Hahahaha

SB_UK
04-13-15, 10:48 AM
So what are we seeking ?

To turn the tap (reward system activation) on.

The reward system we have before we've turned the tap on - is transient.
And the higher the 'pleasure' the greater the 'pain'.
This is 'happiness - the wrong defn' - and always leaves you needing more.
Addiction.

What we are aiming for is a state of mind which does not require anything to achieve reward.

That's what is being sought.

Or in the language of spirituality, religion, mysticism - to find our way home - since arrival at that state of mind places us (as entities) in resonant synchrony with fundamental substance.

SB_UK
04-13-15, 11:03 AM
From chemical addiction to beauty.

ADDers as highly sensitive people are already there.

There's nothing wrong with ADHDers - the sole problem is that the (di)stress of life in a world which does not allow ADDer reward mechanism ie a collaborative society - leads to all of the problems we associate with ADHD.

So - ADHD is simply a new state in which information flow/collaboration/social behaviour is required - and in a world where low quality information, competition and antisocial behaviour are EXPECTED - we suffer, self-medicate and die.

The increased attention of ADHD relates to increased sensitivity to the sensory realm.
The disorder element of ADHD relates to the distress of living in a crude human society where barbaric procedures - money, law and climbing human hierarchical systems (by foul means and foul) are necessary.