View Full Version : FEARless?


mildadhd
05-03-15, 11:15 AM
What would life be like, if humans did not have a FEAR response system?

Could we survive without a FEAR response system?


P

Abi
05-03-15, 11:22 AM
Unfortunately, I do not think so.

mildadhd
05-03-15, 11:26 AM
It seems impossible to think about life without a FEAR response system.

People would be recklessly driving, and recklessly crossing the streets, as though physics did not exist, etc.



P

mildadhd
05-03-15, 11:38 AM
Unfortunately, I do not think so.

I am not sure how long we would actually last.

But we don't play when we are feeling scared.

So then maybe it might be a more playful extinction for some?

:)


P?

midnightstar
05-03-15, 11:58 AM
Fear is what prevented people back in the days of cavemen from running out after prehistoric predators and shouting "ner ner nerner ner you cannot catch me" and then trying to outrun the predator, so I very much doubt humans would have survived without the fear system.

mildadhd
05-03-15, 12:27 PM
Fear is what prevented people back in the days of cavemen from running out after prehistoric predators and shouting "ner ner nerner ner you cannot catch me" and then trying to outrun the predator, so I very much doubt humans would have survived without the fear system.

Funny.

Still having the SEEKING system and RAGE (fight) system, without having a FEAR (freeze or flight) system, the cave people probably would have recklessly attacked everything that walked by, no matter the odds of survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4trn2lJxl00

Corina86
05-03-15, 12:28 PM
You might not even get to the age when you can play. Newborns might not survive infancy if they don't start screaming whenever they have a problem. Crying and yelling requires a lot of effort, so a small inconvenience (slight hunger, slight pain) might be ignored if not for the panic. I noticed in my nieces (and other kids) that they often hurt themselves and ignore the injury, if the adults keep a cool face and don't act scared. I think fear is partially a learned response, but it might not always be a bad one.

mildadhd
05-03-15, 01:04 PM
You might not even get to the age when you can play. Newborns might not survive infancy if they don't start screaming whenever they have a problem. Crying and yelling requires a lot of effort, so a small inconvenience (slight hunger, slight pain) might be ignored if not for the panic. I noticed in my nieces (and other kids) that they often hurt themselves and ignore the injury, if the adults keep a cool face and don't act scared. I think fear is partially a learned response, but it might not always be a bad one.

I agree.

If I understand correctly, the more social GRIEF system grew/evolved out of the more primitive FEAR system.

So we would not have a PANIC/GRIEF response system either?

Caregivers would not worry about the children, mammalian family life would be in ruins without a FEAR system.

I am just beginning to learn about fear conditioning.

If I understand correctly...

Fear conditioning is a secondary process (learning and memories), that would also not be possible without genetic (instinctual) primary unconditioned FEAR response system.

(Layman/parts)

Thoughts appreciated?


P

Corina86
05-03-15, 03:29 PM
True. I didn't think about this, but you are right: fearing for their offspring's life is what makes caregivers protect them. Otherwise, they wouldn't survive infancy if the caregivers would be taking chances with their lives.

I don't understand where "grief" comes into play. Isn't that a feeling of sadness?

SB_UK
05-08-15, 10:05 AM
Ease of excitation and low sensory threshold are best thought of as relating to a particular aspect of neuroticism called “withdrawal“. Interesting new research suggests that people who score high in the withdrawal aspect of neuroticism show increased amygdala activation (the amygdala is associated with the fear response) in reaction to a wide variety of stimuli (positive and negative).http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/2015/05/04/shades-of-sensitivity/

Fear ?
or ??
Aversion ?

I wouldn't classify it as a fear response - that is the motivation to withdrawal.
More aversion.

Way! happier in an uncluttered, natural, silent, goal-less environment.

Is it carrot or stick which leads to finding oneself in a clean environment without brutal sensory bombardment.
Carrot first Stick (aversion reaction tending towards fear) second.

Though they can be forced to be synonymous if someone were to choose.

-*-

Aversion is driven in foods which taste bad -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversives
unconditioned aversive stimulus eg bitter taste.

Consumerism drives me to an aversive response - it tastes bad - leaves a bitter after-taste.

The language of overcoming consumerism and the need to consume surely betrays a connection between the two.

We're on the verge of completely transcending consumerism - all people know ... ... but what does that mean for what we'll then eat ???

The bitterest pill

Now autumn's breeze blows
Summer's leaves through my life
Twisted and broken dawn
No days with sunlight


We need to go solar powered.

icarusinflames
05-08-15, 02:29 PM
We're on the verge of completely transcending consumerism - all people know ... ... but what does that mean for what we'll then eat ???



We need to go solar powered.

I have a ton of solar power. I still get a power bill unfortunately!

I like how you think. It's very interesting to read your shorthand style, almost like note-taking. I find it surprising and delightful that I would enjoy someone who writes in a note style. Nice!

I have heard that in the future, if we want to have a more eco-friendly way of eating, then we would all eat bugs. Some people are promoting this right now. If you are a vegan, I know you would object to that. In that case, well we can all hope for a truly effective soylent green type of drink or bar, that can actually provide sustaining nutrition for the entire life of a human. Right now, from what I have read, the people who have experiemented with a soylent green type of idea are actually showing that it can result in unintended nutritional consequences.

I hope they do come up with a soylent green that can truly nourish as I have been daydreaming about what I call a "dogfood diet" for years. This would be one food that I can eat for every meal, so I can stop being oppressed with the incredible amount of work it takes to cook healthy where I won't gain weight or feel sick. I cook totally from scratch, except maybe for bread (which I actually don't like and try to limit). Bread is responsible for a lot of illness actually because it's one of the high sources of sodium. Anything made with flour must be heavily salted because flour tastes like garbage without salt.

I think bugs would be healthier than wheat!

Anyhow, i wanted to say that i love that link you shared. I was surprised to see someone describe me there:

They found that those scoring high on this scale tended to score high on a wide variety of intensified experiences, from crying easily to having daylight sensitivity to loving intensely to remembering dreams more vividly.

My dreams are more vivid than my daily life. I dream in full color in exquisite details. I actually look forward to sleeping because I know I go to a better more beautiful place (my mind).

See you around! nice to meet you!

icarusinflames
05-08-15, 02:33 PM
What would life be like, if humans did not have a FEAR response system?

Could we survive without a FEAR response system?


P

We would all be burned all over from the sheer number of times we thought it was inconvenient to get a fork or spatula to turn food, and then we would eventually become so scarred and marked and destroyed physically that we would become fearless meat blobs, all sitting on hammocks and patio furniture at a really scary resort, like Club Med for those close to destruction. (Club Dead?)

mildadhd
05-09-15, 09:29 PM
True. I didn't think about this, but you are right: fearing for their offspring's life is what makes caregivers protect them. Otherwise, they wouldn't survive infancy if the caregivers would be taking chances with their lives.

I don't understand where "grief" comes into play. Isn't that a feeling of sadness?

There is more than one primary emotional system involved.

(Primary emotional systems interact with each other depending partly on the emotional experiences.)


SEEKING system, RAGE system, FEAR system and LUST system are evolutionarily older primary emotions.

CARE system, PANIC/GRIEF system and PLAY system are comparatively less evolutionarily older,more social mammalian primary emotions.


SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST (reptilian realm)

SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, PANIC/GRIEF, PLAY (mammalian more social realm)


SEEKING, CARE, LUST, PLAY (positive feeling primary emotional systems)

RAGE, FEAR, GRIEF (negative feeling primary emotional systems)


A healthy balance of positive and negative feeling primary emotions promote survival.

There is the possibility of more than one type of depression, depending on the primary emotions/experiences, involved.


Example.

A underaroused usually positive feeling SEEKING system may feel depressed, possibly due to an over aroused negative feeling PANIC/GRIEF system, when separated from primary caregivers.


Same goes for anxieties, some anxiety is fear related, while other forms of anxiety/panic may be related separation distress.

When the FEAR system is stimulated animals hide or run away.

When the PANIC/GRIEF system is stimulated animals cry. (see more about crying in the link below)

(Layman, leave room for learning)

The link below title, Affective neuroscience of the emotional BrainMind: evolutionary perspectives and implications for understanding depression, by Jaak Panksepp, PhD gives a much more scientific evidence based explanation.


The GRIEF/separation distress system

system was initially called the PANIC system, but few understood the intent of that primary-process terminology, so we shifted to the more comprehensible tertiary-process term of GRIEF.

(highlighting once more terminological problems in emotion research: what are the differences between the tertiary-level emotions of bereavement, grief, and mourning, for instance?).

In any event, young socially dependent animals have powerful emotional systems to solicit nurturance.

They exhibit intense crying when lost, alerting caretakers to attend to their offspring.

ESB mapping of this separation-distress system has highlighted circuitry running from dorsal PAG to anterior cingulate, and it is aroused by glutamate and CRF and inhibited by endogenous opioids, oxytocin, and prolactin - the major social-attachment, socialbonding chemistries of the mammalian brain.

These neurochemicals are foundational for the secure attachments that are so essential for future mental health and happiness.

It is still worth considering that panic attacks may reflect sudden endogenous spontaneous loss of feelings of security (acute separation-distress) rather than sudden FEAR.

We predict that these circuits are tonically aroused during human grief and sadness, feelings that accompany low brain opioid activity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181986/

mildadhd
05-10-15, 05:04 AM
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/2015/05/04/shades-of-sensitivity/



.... What is becoming clear is that there are different shades of sensitivity. This includes narcissistic sensitivity and moral sensitivity, but for this post I’d like to focus on the different shades of sensory-processing sensitivity.

Maybe "it" is not exactly the same, there is so may forms of distress.

Maybe "it" is more sensory-processing sensitivity in some people?

Maybe "it" is more emotional-processing sensitivity in some people?

Maybe "it" is more homeostatic-processing sensitivity in some people?

(Or overlapping sensitivity combinations of 2, or all 3)

In this thread I am focusing more on emotional-processing sensitivity, than sensory-processing sensitivity.

I do think overlapping emotional-processing , homeostatic-processing and sensory-processing are involved.

With emotional-processing sensitivity most interesting in my own circumstances.

Some day I hope to understand and discuss how all 3 primary emotional, homeostatic and sensory affects are interconnected, on all 3 levels of control.

Thanks


P

mildadhd
05-10-15, 05:22 AM
We would all be burned all over from the sheer number of times we thought it was inconvenient to get a fork or spatula to turn food, and then we would eventually become so scarred and marked and destroyed physically that we would become fearless meat blobs, all sitting on hammocks and patio furniture at a really scary resort, like Club Med for those close to destruction. (Club Dead?)


Could you hand me the french fries in the deep fryer?

It really is fascinating how negative feelings are essential for survival.

P

Fuzzy12
05-10-15, 07:48 AM
I did a mindfulness course and one of the interesting things we talked about was how most of human's structures and functions were geared for survival, and therefore fear and other negative emotions, rather than happiness and contentment. Happiness isn't necessarily conducive for survival, neither individual nor that of the species, but fear is. The question is though how much do we value survival and is there a balance to be found?

mildadhd
05-10-15, 06:43 PM
I did a mindfulness course and one of the interesting things we talked about was how most of human's structures and functions were geared for survival, and therefore fear and other negative emotions, rather than happiness and contentment. Happiness isn't necessarily conducive for survival, neither individual nor that of the species, but fear is. The question is though how much do we value survival and is there a balance to be found?

Thanks

This post is Super duper layman, please leave room for my learning.

The quote below is my layman understanding of the general healthy balance idea.

A healthy balance of negative and positive feeling experiences/systems that promote mammalian homeostasis/survival.

Which negative or positive experiences/systems promote homeostasis depends on overarousal or underarousal of each individual system, individual circumstances and individual temperament, etc.

(SEEKING system is a general positive motivation system, which interacts with and motivation is influenced by the other 3 negative feeling primary emotional systems and 3 positive feeling primary emotional systems.)

In mammals.

(underaroused) SEEKING (overaroused)

Negative feelings Positive feelings
(underaroused) RAGE (overaroused) (underaroused) LUST (overaroused)
(underaroused) FEAR (overaroused) (underaroused) CARE (overaroused)
(underaroused) PANIC/GRIEF (overaroused) (underaroused) PLAY (overaroused)


P

mctavish23
05-10-15, 08:35 PM
I Think There'd Be A LOT Less People.

tc

Robert

mildadhd
05-10-15, 09:39 PM
"..pain itself serves as a crucial function in survival.

We would not survive without pain.

Physical pain warns us of physical danger, such as the heat of a fire or the cutting edge of a blade.

Emotional pain warns us that a situation threatens our psychic well-being."

-Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", p 118.


I wonder what are the similarities and differences between negative feelings of Sensory Pain, Emotional Pain and Homeostatic Pain?


P

namazu
05-10-15, 10:10 PM
I wonder what are the similarities and differences between negative feelings of Sensory Pain, Emotional Pain and Homeostatic Pain?
What do you mean by "homeostatic pain"? Hunger, thirst, feverish, cold, etc.?

SB_UK
05-11-15, 06:44 AM
I wonder what are the similarities and differences between negative feelings of Sensory Pain, Emotional Pain and Homeostatic Pain?


P

Our all encompassing definition of (di)stress ?

SB_UK
05-11-15, 07:02 AM
I have a ton of solar power. I still get a power bill unfortunately!

I like how you think. It's very interesting to read your shorthand style, almost like note-taking. I find it surprising and delightful that I would enjoy someone who writes in a note style. Nice!

I have heard that in the future, if we want to have a more eco-friendly way of eating, then we would all eat bugs. Some people are promoting this right now. If you are a vegan, I know you would object to that. In that case, well we can all hope for a truly effective soylent green type of drink or bar, that can actually provide sustaining nutrition for the entire life of a human. Right now, from what I have read, the people who have experiemented with a soylent green type of idea are actually showing that it can result in unintended nutritional consequences.

I hope they do come up with a soylent green that can truly nourish as I have been daydreaming about what I call a "dogfood diet" for years. This would be one food that I can eat for every meal, so I can stop being oppressed with the incredible amount of work it takes to cook healthy where I won't gain weight or feel sick. I cook totally from scratch, except maybe for bread (which I actually don't like and try to limit). Bread is responsible for a lot of illness actually because it's one of the high sources of sodium. Anything made with flour must be heavily salted because flour tastes like garbage without salt.

I think bugs would be healthier than wheat!

Anyhow, i wanted to say that i love that link you shared. I was surprised to see someone describe me there:



My dreams are more vivid than my daily life. I dream in full color in exquisite details. I actually look forward to sleeping because I know I go to a better more beautiful place (my mind).

See you around! nice to meet you!

Thanks - yes have seen many me mentions of bugs as food.
But but but ... ... the mechanisms are out there for us to shift to a dramatically reduced (eliminated ?) need for food.

Way I see it - is that the human mind is an incredible product of evolution.

I don't really see selection of a novel mechanism for bypassing energy from food as too big an ask from evolution.

The various key mechanisms that're screaming out at me -

[1] theta EEG resonance with the planetary Schumann resonance (resonant energy transfer) - something potentially here to do wih the pineal
[ADDers theta oriented]
[2] solar power via melanin/neuromelanin (this mechanism is possible)
[heat, sound, light conversion to chemical energy]
[3] electrical energy via the planet (the way fat% monitors work)
[4] gut biome biosynthesis of all essential factors using acetate/butyrate mad from neuromelanin

I only really like barefoot moving in the sun for hours on end in daydream - and so all 4 of the mechanisms above could be implicated.

Why do I like them (ie what's the mechanism which makes me think that I like them) ?

As with all things evolutionary - selection.

What selects ?
Survival fitness

What could select more than gradually eliminating our one requirement for survival ?
Nothing.

It's all do-able ... ...

Intense experiences.

Yes - exactly - intense experiences - but I think ... ... ...

I wonder what are the similarities and differences between negative feelings of Sensory Pain, Emotional Pain and Homeostatic Pain?
if we are exposed to brutal experiences (for me large noises like guns or fireworks) - the flipside of intense sensitivity is distress.

So - we find somewhere simple, calm, quiet for a mind to do the heavy lifting of satisfying our need for reward.

Personally - I'd be very happy without any manmade product - as long as some sort of log cabin can be constructed - though wouldn't half mind the internet staying - if only so people ***talk***.

Abi
05-11-15, 12:14 PM
you know what, on a more serious note, I need to evaluate whether the discussion here is relevant to the OP or warrants a split. Thread temporarily closed for topic relevance review.

Abi
05-11-15, 04:33 PM
The discussion about food, melanin, etc. has been split into its own thread which you may find here: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170065

Please keep this thread on topic. Thread reopened.

mctavish23
05-11-15, 08:24 PM
If There Was No Fear, Would "NAKED AND AFRAID" Still Be On TV ? :scratch:

Just Sayn :rolleyes:

u r welcome :cool:

mildadhd
05-12-15, 12:21 AM
If There Was No Fear, Would "NAKED AND AFRAID" Still Be On TV ? :scratch:

Just Sayn :rolleyes:

u r welcome :cool:

Maybe,

"Naked and Cranky" ?

"Naked and Irritated" ?


P?

mildadhd
05-14-15, 09:15 AM
If somehow? it was possible to survive without a FEAR system.

The "Fight, Freeze or Flight" response, would just be the "Fight" (RAGE) response.

No one would get scared, and freeze or run away (FEAR system).

Everyone would get angry, and fight (RAGE system).


P

Little Missy
05-14-15, 09:56 AM
Maybe logic would prevail instead.

Lunacie
05-14-15, 11:02 AM
If somehow? it was possible to survive without a FEAR system.

The "Fight, Freeze or Flight" response, would just be the "Fight" (RAGE) response.

No one would get scared, and freeze or run away (FEAR system).

Everyone would get angry, and fight (RAGE system).


P

Sometimes the impulse to fight comes from fear.

Fear can also be expressed as anger. (rage)

Would there still be rage without fear?

namazu
05-14-15, 07:57 PM
I just happened upon this article about fruit flies and fear in the Christian Science Monitor (newpaper) (http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2015/0514/Animal-emotions-Do-fruit-flies-feel-fear). It's based on work that was done at Caltech and recently published in the journal Cell (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)00411-X).

The lingo here is a bit different from Panksepp's, in that it goes even a step beyond the 7 primary emotions he identifies to what the Caltech folks call "emotion primitives" or "building blocks of emotion".

As I (mis-?)understand these "building blocks", they seem to be important evaluations of a stimulus that lead to responses like fear and influence the nature/strength of the fear response.

Here's an excerpt from the article:

Upon hearing the sound of unexpected gunfire, most people react with fear. But there are several steps within that very basic emotional response. Upon hearing one shot, most people immediately experience a negative feeling, a primitive called valence. Generally, that feeling lasts for several minutes and causes people to act differently for that duration. That primitive is known as persistence. And you’re likely to be more frightened by the sound of 10 gunshots than by the sound of one – this primitive is called scalability.

Another primitive is known as context generalization: If you happened to be reading a good book when you heard the hypothetical gunfire, the resulting fear would take precedence, making you forget about your book temporarily.

As it turns out, fruit flies experience the same primitives humans do.

Anyway, I thought this was interesting and potentially relevant to the discussion of fear responses.

mctavish23
05-14-15, 08:48 PM
namazu,

I just happened to read this article on fruit flies ??? :eek:

Awesome intro :yes:

u r welcome :cool:

SB_UK
05-15-15, 06:30 AM
Maybe logic would prevail instead.

Very important -

Logic (logical consistency with wellbeing) [= morality] should (if acquired) completely dissolve fear.

What's there to be scared about ?
If people 'd just stop being such silly $ausages.

Silly $$$ausage self is fundamentally immoral.

SB_UK
05-15-15, 06:32 AM
fruit flies

Fruit flies must live in fear - to prevent a nasty and premature death to a spider.

But we don't have any spiders if we exclude double glazing salesmen, car mechanics, lawyers, private dentists, plumbers, life insurance salesmen.

Their mantra !!!

Well it's gonna' cost you.

namazu
05-15-15, 09:34 AM
Fruit flies must live in fear - to prevent a nasty and premature death to a spider.

But we don't have any spiders if we exclude double glazing salesmen, car mechanics, lawyers, private dentists, plumbers, life insurance salesmen.

Their mantra !!!
That's a lot of exclusions...and I've known some very good people who answer to some of those labels.

Let's not forget falling off cliffs, being eaten by bears or bitten by adders, being burned by fire, etc. Sure, we could also avoid these things using learning, logic, and respect for nature, but people do not always want to be taught, nor behave logically, nor respect nature.

So, perhaps the ability to invoke a primal fear response remains a useful legacy of evolution... (Excepting those times when it is overactive and maladaptive.)

Lunacie
05-15-15, 12:15 PM
We love our plumber and are fearful of finding a new plumber when he retired
at the end of the year. It's very difficult to find people who work on mobile
homes (plumbers, roofers, etc).

Little Missy
05-15-15, 12:17 PM
Nothing better than a great dentist and an excellent car mechanic. You get what you pay for.

mildadhd
05-16-15, 01:56 PM
What do you mean by "homeostatic pain"?...

Visceral pain.

Example

Gout is a form of acute arthritis that causes severe pain and swelling in the joints. It most commonly affects the big toe, but may also affect the heel, ankle, hand, wrist, or elbow. It affects the spine often enough to be a factor in back pain. Gout usually comes on suddenly, goes away after 5-10 days, and can keep recurring. Gout is different from other forms of arthritis because it occurs when there are high levels of uric acid circulating in the blood, which can cause urate crystals to settle in the tissues of the joints.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/gout

mildadhd
05-17-15, 04:43 AM
Our all encompassing definition of (di)stress ?



4 types of physical pain?


-Cognitive pain (somatic)

-Sensory pain (somatic)

-Emotional pain (visceral)

-Homeostatic pain (visceral)


Correction appreciated?





P

mildadhd
05-17-15, 04:48 PM
PAIN AND THE FEAR SYSTEM

Pain always arouses the FEAR system to some extent, but the reverse is not true.

Fearfulness can actually diminish the perception of pain (Miczek, 1991).

When the FEAR system is electrically stimulated in the human brain, people report fear but not pain.

When this system is electrically stimulated in animals, they exhibit fear but rarely screech or yelp as they do when they are actually hurt.

However, intense fear can often inhibit the experience of pain, because during fearful episodes the brain secretes analgesic brain chemicals, such as the brain's own opioids, that temporarily reduce the sensation of pain (Miczek, 1991).

This is an adaptive mechanism that allows injured animals to ignore pain, increasing the likelihood that they might escape from predators.

However, it can also cause the numbing that accompanies PSTD.

There is some evidence that the blockade of opiate receptors can actually reduce such numbing and psychological dissociations, helping people with borderline personality disorders respond more positively to psychotherapy (Bohus et al., 1999).

The same applies to PSTD (Pitman et al., 1990).


Although sudden pain is one kind of stimulus that can usually arouse the FEAR system, we have just seen that the system can also be easily aroused by stimuli that do not cause physical pain.

The smell of a predator does not cause physical pain in a rat.

Well-lit open spaces cause no bodily pain.

Similarly if a human baby is not well supported physically, it may even fall and be hurt, but the seeming lack of support arouses fear long before the experience of any physical pain has occurred.

Loud noises may be unpleasant, but they rarely painful.

Nevertheless, babies and most animals are afraid of thunderous or piercing sounds, because those "startle" stimuli have often heralded dangerous events in the evolutionary history of most mammalian species.

Indeed, the startle response is amplified if animals are already anxious.

It has been long known that the temperamental trait of anxiousness can be easily bred into animals by using behavioral-genetic selection procedures.

Investigators are beginning to detail the brain changes that arise from such inherited temperaments (Harro, 2010; Harro et al., 2011; Kanarik et al., 2010; Singewald, 2007).

Physical pain is often used in fear-conditioning experiments because it is so easy to inflict on laboratory animals, most commonly through the application of electrical shocks.

In fear-conditioning, animals learn to become afraid of conditioned (previously neutral) stimuli, such as an auditory tone or light, when the presentation is paired with an unconditional stimulus, like an electrical shock, that always arouses the animals FEAR system, as it does in humans.

Quite rapidly, animals learn to fear the tone and light even when not accompanied by the shock.

In other words, cues that predict painful events always begin to generate fearful responses in practically all animals that have been studied.

Such rapid development of the fear responses to conditioned stimuli is the hallmark of successful fear-conditioning....



-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", (chapter: The Ancestral Roots of FEAR), p 183-184.




/

mildadhd
05-17-15, 06:51 PM
If I understand correctly within-brain primary emotional response systems evolved with movement.

Questions like why the fruit flies moved when environmental conditions changed, and any possible chemical (etc) evolutionary connections between the mammalian FEAR response system and fruit flies, are much harder to determine than similarities among mammals.

See quotes below for a more professional in depth explanation.



Consciousness is surely not a single global property of the brain in action.

It has a long evolutionary history that goes back to ancient systems that encode brain and body states that are essential for survival.

Psychologically, those "ancestral voices of the genes" that arise from the neurodynamics of a variety of intrinsic brain systems are experienced as raw feelings or primitive affective states.

We have focused on other mammals (and some birds; see Bernroider and Panksepp, 2011) largely because the neuroanatomical and neurochemical homologues are quite striking, allowing credible cross-species generalizations.


The issue of consciousness among invertebrate species is more difficult issue because of diminishing neural similarities.

But as we previously mentioned, even crayfish (basically large insects) exhibit conditioned place preferences for drugs that humans abuse and that other mammalian species find rewarding (Huber et al., 2011; Nathaniel et al.,2009, 2010; Panksepp & Huber, 2004).

Thus, it is wiser to remain open-mined about these issues in the "lower" species and to see where the predictions lead us.

But there is a core dilemma in neuroscience.

In mind science, we would like to understand large-scale processes--the "wholes"--but neuroscience is best at studying small discrete phenomena, or the "parts" of the "wholes".

Because of this tendency, we are very susceptible to mixing up the two, yielding mereological fallacies, namely part-whole confusion (Bennett & Hacker, 2003).

And currently neuroscience is giving so many parts--so many brain mechanisms--but what functions they perform in the mind, the "whole", is more difficult to decipher.


Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", p 499.

SB_UK
05-18-15, 04:31 AM
That's a lot of exclusions...and I've known some very good people who answer to some of those labels.

Let's not forget falling off cliffs, being eaten by bears or bitten by adders, being burned by fire, etc. Sure, we could also avoid these things using learning, logic, and respect for nature, but people do not always want to be taught, nor behave logically, nor respect nature.

So, perhaps the ability to invoke a primal fear response remains a useful legacy of evolution... (Excepting those times when it is overactive and maladaptive.)

I guess the larger point I'mmaking is that the definition of a good person has to be somebody whose reward is making somebody else's life better - which excludes anybody who charges.

Good examples - but all of those various problems do (as you say) vanish with sensible behaviour.

I think the fear response (as it was intended) ie to keep us alive is recruited far less often than it is encountered in normal human interactions - when one fears the consequence of the interaction.

Ned Flanders has asong he sings - 'kindly deeds done for free' - and as long as the individual feels reward from doing them - we've entered the realm of a 'good' person.

SB_UK
05-18-15, 04:34 AM
falling off cliffs - getting too close - thrill seeking
being close to bears - thrill sekeing
swimming with snakes - thrill seeking
building dangerous fires - thrill seeking

Self-medication ?

Which goes away if we've nothing (no stress - see Peripheral's 4 definitions above) to distress about.

SB_UK
05-18-15, 05:48 AM
Yes - that's really worrying.

All of the stupid things (mentioned above by Namazu) human beings do which require the fear response for our protection - are addictively construed ie self-medication of which thrill seeking is a great example.
All of the stupid things (mentioned by me) human beings do for money which drive the fear response in others - are addictively construed ie self-medication.

It's all part of the need for reward - and the pursuit of an addictive model of reward which increases the hunger for more.

Once you swim with 2 carnivorous lions - you need to move onto 2 lions, 3 snakes and a man-eating partridge in a pear tree.
And of course - the desire for money, power etc grows - we don't ever wake up discovering that we have enough; personal observation - that mind develops a repulsion to money.

So - what's the core problem human beings face ?
There's nothing to fear if people act morally (logically consistent with all of species including self happy survival).

Why don't people just do it ?
Because reward isn't obtained from that paradigm - or rather, there're 2 competing paradigms or choices - and pursuit of individual reward (because it's do-able alone) is pursued at the necessary expense of social reward (which requires group involvement).

So what helps to follow the 'higher' reward system ?
Attempt to define and apply morality for one self.
Know that what one is doing - is immoral - if forced to engage.

The things that people do.
If somebody does something spontaneously - it must be because the behaviour is rewarding.

That's what reward does.

Bankers speaking out against having their wages slashed.
"I don't do this job for the good of my health"

However - if it's not being done for the good of our individual/collective health - it's probably being done to the detriment of our ... ...

sensory
cognitive
homeostatic
emotional


Bankers should experience cognitive and emotional stress.

How is it avoided ? How do bankers not collapse under cognitive/emotional stress ?

By warping the mind (seriously warping the mind - which will lead to the observation that bankers become stupid if listened to) into believing that the world is better for the banker's tasks - and that the banker deserves the level of remuneration they receive.
By aligning one's mind with an illogical/immoral construct - it's a bit like the foundations of a building - you can't have a stable building if part of the foundations are poor - the rest of the foundations have to alter to 'compensate' - making the entire foundation or the logical structure of the mind out of which one thinks - as ILLOGICAL/IMMORAL.

Problem
Banker is required to warp their world view out of what's right (moral,logical) into a world view which is designed to meet selfish individual and not collective needs.

It's obvious why this is a problem for non-bankers as the world sinks into poverty - but why a problem for banker ?
Because achieving a mind of morality (wisdom) is the key to eliminating the need for reward which is satisfied by behaviours which put the individual's survival under threat.

The one definition of freedom which we need to get our heads around - is TO ESCAPE the need for reward which can be satisfied by an addictive mechanism (which takes the individual further from freedom) ie tolerance/resistance syndromes.

So Namazu's mention of people who jump off cliffs for kicks, swim with snakes etc - these people (no matter how society praises them) are doing something very stupid indeed - because of their need for reward.
Following an anti-individual/species reward mechanism.

Problem - how do you develop/apply a moral mind in a world where the pursuit of the primitive reward system (addictive) is praised ie you're considered highly if you're rich (addicted to money), of high standing (addicted to power), have had many girlfriends (addicted to abuse of women), extreme sportsman (addicted to thrill seeking), professional sportsperson (addicted to beating people and not helping people) ?

So - we've a world which is exquisitely !! formulated around immoral pursuits / lower reward system - how does one develop morality / application of morality in this context ?

Well - it's only a matter of time before the mind completes and people are required to be moral / logical - it's likely that the mind will take time to develop (has had a few thousand years) - but we must approach a point at which people will pursue morality as a fundamental axiom to behaviour ie won't even think about it - there will come a time when immoral behaviour won't be an option.

How do we get to that point ?
Explain reality simply ie the mechanism of operation of evolution simply so people have a rational understanding of God.

Then what ?
We all lively happily ever after trying to be the best that we can individually be - within context of other people - within context of happy survival for all things planetary from plant to animal diversity.

Is that enough ?
What we're currently fighting against is the tyranny of needing to obtain reward - if obtaining reward were to be possible from:

sensory -> looking at nature, listening to nature, high quality man-made artforms
cognitive -> development of ideas which benefit man, wordplay
homeostatic -> physical wellbeing, increased fitness,
emotional -> absence of fear, reward from having moral intentions

- then we'd be fine.

So - is this an absence of reward ?
I think it's more like escaping the need for reward which kills us - and moving onto a reward mechanism which doesn't.

But are people going to addictively pursue making art, helping other people ?
Forcing old ladies to cross the road.

I'd suggest escaping the duality of happy/sad - and realising bliss - with bliss being punctuated by moments of extra bliss - though where life isn't an addictive pursuit of extra bliss as bliss is enough.

This is described by Maslow as Peak experiences under wikiP/selfactualization

-*-

So putting the idea really silly.

We're attempting to see self actualization on a species level - species actualization - a point from which people WON'T have the capacity to follow a reward system which compromises their own (quality of) life.

Simply stating it - that people follow a reward mechanism which is responsible for their own premature death - should be shocking to the individual with a mind. You've a finite life - reducing it, reducing it's quality through some some level of programming which resides within us
- or rather strengthening the code rather than attempting to delete the code - should be the approach that any rational mind takes.
At some point the rational mind will be so appalled at its own control by legacy programming that the code will need to be removed.

SB_UK
05-18-15, 06:14 AM
Why don't people just do it ?
Because reward isn't obtained from that paradigm - or rather, there're 2 competing paradigms or choices -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization
Instead of focusing on what goes wrong with people, Maslow wanted to focus on human potential, and how we fulfill that potential.


As simple as a choice.

It's more uplifting and useful to identify how people/species can actualize but the problem is that we need to know what the opposite direction looks like, and what a society formed in the opposite direction would resemble.

It's the society we have.

Back around to the all-encompassing idea of the environment in shaping EVERYTHING ie the choice we make.

In current society - the social environment does not favour us making the choice we need to make - the inevitable outcome is that we make the wrong choice - but the way that it's taken - is that it's taken without realising that there is actually a choice there, to be made.

mildadhd
05-23-15, 07:46 PM
Fearful (environmental situations), "verses", FEARless (biologically no FEAR primary emotional response system)?

How to bring biological awareness of the negative feeling FEAR primary emotional response system that promotes survival, and distinguish between fearful environmental situations that may over stimulate the same FEAR system and interfere with healthy development?

(Video below does not ask these exact questions, but does discuss some of the topics in parts, and is posted to promote thread discussion.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWo9cvAJtlo


P

KarmanMonkey
05-29-15, 11:59 AM
I agree that there are many aspects of our life that would be easier if we had no fear, but it is far outweighed by the risks.

Would it be easier to have a difficult conversation with my boss? Certainly? But there's a reason we have fear in that situation. If we tick off our boss, there might be real economic consequences to ourselves and our family.

I would likely be far less diplomatic if I was fearless, and I feel that would make me far less effective in creating change.

As others have said, fear for my son's safety and wellbeing is necessary for his survival! The fear response gives me the speed and decisiveness to respond to a desperate situation like when someone is put in harm's way. It also indirectly protects my son from many situations (e.g. falling off the changing table) that would cause him great harm.

The problem comes when the fear and anxiety becomes so intense that it interferes with our ability to act. If we could willfully dial down or turn off a particular fear response, I feel we could become a far more effective species, but then again I've known many people who live with the diagnosis of bipolar disorder, and the indescriminant disabling of the anxiety/fear that often happens with hypomania leads to some... Interesting situations.