View Full Version : Could we learn or remember without unconditioned response systems?


mildadhd
07-10-15, 10:08 PM
Could we learn or remember without our instinctual primary unconditioned response systems?

Example.

Primary unconditioned sensory response systems + Unconditioned (smell, etc) stimuli = Secondary conditioned stimuli and Conditioned responses.

Primary unconditioned homeostatic response systems + Unconditioned (oxygen, etc) stimuli = Secondary conditioned stimuli and Conditioned responses.

Primary unconditioned emotional response systems + Unconditioned (fear, etc) stimuli = Secondary conditioned stimuli and Conditioned responses.




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SB_UK
07-13-15, 03:44 AM
Could we learn or remember without our instinctual primary unconditioned response systems?

Example.

Primary unconditioned sensory response systems + Unconditioned (smell, etc) stimuli = Secondary conditioned stimuli and Conditioned responses.

Primary unconditioned homeostatic response systems + Unconditioned (oxygen, etc) stimuli = Secondary conditioned stimuli and Conditioned responses.

Primary unconditioned emotional response systems + Unconditioned (fear, etc) stimuli = Secondary conditioned stimuli and Conditioned responses.




P


Is this the same as ?

Primary unconditioned sensory response system eg a smell can results in learning.

Primary unconditioned homeostatic response systems eg oxygen levels can result in learning.

Primary unconditioned emotional response systems eg fear results in learning.

-*-

Sounds right and sounds like all of the above should apply to animals in order to maximise their chances of survival.

But human beings re:learning use logical consistency, explanatory capacity, simplicity ... ... ie the internal equivalent of Occam's razer to learn.

However - when I understand something (simple understanding, better understanding) - there's often an emotional reaction (feel good).

Simple way of describing how the mind appears to work.

The mind feels like it's one of those crowded tetris screens about to fill up and 'end' - whereas the mind appears to like the type of tetris screen where every piece (knowledge) thrown at it (mind) lands in place and dissipates ie
I know that I know nothing.

or understanding ?

So - the point being - whenever one hears something new - if accepted - does it challenge one's world view ?
If not - then one's mind encapsulates the idea and need not extend based upon it.

I believe that at the stage of wisdom - the mind has a structure which can house all novel information thrown at it - even if most of the information is relegated to unnecessary based on lower level flaws eg the legal system - we can't answer any specific question re:legal systems as they're all based on an invalid assumption - that punitive co-ercion should be used to make an individual comply.
If an individual doesn't want to form a collaborative project (contract) with another - then the individual shouldn't have to - and if s/he does and something unforseeable goes wrong - the individual shouldn't be made to suffer.

SB_UK
07-13-15, 05:27 AM
I guess the question might be eg human beings can't survive without quarks, though quarks need not be considered in order to work out how to generate a happy human being

- whether the same applies to primary unconditioned responses.

Are they necessary but not in need of consideration when considering the simple formation of a moral mind.

A moral mind only requires an explanatory model of a life which'll lead people to happiness where the point in life is to be happy (attain a state of happiness) - by the correct (sustainable) defn.

-*-

So - is the answer yes - but we need not consider evolutionary aspects of human development - since we're characterized by a mind which seeks only to understand our own context.

mildadhd
07-13-15, 02:20 PM
Thanks.

My point is not to disregard the value of the higher secondary and tertiary processes in humans.

But to recognize the development of bottom-up affective consciousness that makes the development top-down cognitive consciousness possible.

Positive emotional affective experiences (safe feelings) promote the development of higher cognitive areas.

Negative emotional affective experiences (unsafe feelings) does not promote the development of higher cognitive areas.

See thread "When Fear is Near".

Prefrontal cortex----->PAG (during unsafe feelings)

Development from the bottom-up. (Foundation)

Prevention, treatment and accommodations about bottom-up development from the top-down consciousness. (Awareness)

Thoughts appreciated.

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SB_UK
07-14-15, 03:22 AM
Isn't this though a general statement that distress exposure destroys development particularly neural development - thinking back to your picture of the brain of a severely neglected child vs. normal.

Although it's tempting to think that ADHD is simply the result of childhood neglect - didn't we see that the severely neglected child has a reduction in all areas of the bran, whereas ADHD reduction occurs in only specific sites.
However - with the increased sensitivity in ADHD - there's a problem - because we'd find that ADDers were more sensitive to neglect - so a more sensitive temperament in the presence of neglect (not extreme) would be expected to have greater effect on ADDer brains than nonADDer.

With particular reference to child's early (pre-7 yrs) neural development being soothed by 'present' parents
- but that won't stop
(eg) -- bullying by children/teachers between ages 0-7 yrs
or
-- what bothers me PARTICULARLY is the 3 year developmental delay which'll mean (personal experience with 1 maybe 2 of our kids) chronic distress exposure through incapacity to keep up experienced by child in educational and social environments.

But then there's the problem of whether you can have a 'present' caregiver who fears the future (we're in a world where mothers on maternity leave lose their jobs (my wife did), in a world where mothers fear disease eg breast cancer (my wife has had this) - where some countries presumably require you to pay for care, where pension companies collapse (my wife's pension provider of many years standing went bankrupt) ... ....)

The point I'm getting at is that we need to correct life from the birth of a grandparent of a grandchild's life (remembering our epigenetics threads in which grandparent - grandchild memory is encoded within the genome) - so from
grandparent at birth
parent at birth
child <- just to secure child at birth.

So ... ... the only way to do this is to define the human lifecycle and support (not impede) people from living it.

This'd then correct all downstream problems including my fears above.

Since there would be no punishment if child requires an alternative educational path in the absence of peers in order to handle their special (developmental delay) requirements - and to ensure that the delay doesn't arrest development.

-*-

Our problems really do boil down to education.

Why do we have a system where all people have to attain a fixed level in some aspects of learning by a certain age.
So - the problems include why must all people be herded together ? who chooses what a child should learn - is that what they should learn or what their teachers learnt ? why do we 'fail' students ?, why is age important ?

My single point is that the point of education is to teach the mind what is right and what is wrong ie morality.
The rest - learning mechanical systems, which they all are - or tooth-wrenching exercises in memorization (which medicine certainly is !!!) merely represents servicing a world of money in which people yearn for money.

It's not a world any human being will ever prosper in - since the individual's motivation is selfish and not social in nature.

That's the core environmental stressor which need be removed to ensure that a parent will be present for a child; it's removing the fear of redundancy if away from work.
That fear would be removed if people worked for free ie voluntarily in all sectors.

SB_UK
07-14-15, 03:43 AM
Positive emotional affective experiences (safe feelings) promote the development of higher cognitive areas.

Negative emotional affective experiences (unsafe feelings) does not promote the development of higher cognitive areas.


So definitely distress impedes development.
Peripheral has presented rates of neural developemnt and importance of care provider presence (mind, body) in assisting development but we're required to forward a distress-less model (post above) in order to allow this to happen.

Continuing problem.

Imagine if we had a classically distress-less environment in which somebody always provided you with food and shelter in a cell - and promised to do so from birth to death.
No psychosocial stress as no human interaction.

But there would be distress involved.

So we need to identify the optimal human lifecycle and to allow people to live it, in order to ensure a distress free world for all people.
I'm pretty sure that our 'usual' programmed loves operating through dopamine, oxytocin lead us through from birth to death - and ensuring they happen
- requiring only elimination of money (eliminate economics),
- elimination of personal explicit ownership (eliminate law),
- development of personal quality (arts and all technologies),
- communal education into morality (social sciences)
and
- a definition of the evolutionary process (natural science) would do.

SB_UK
07-14-15, 03:46 AM
Given that the reward system is part of the pain networkAny view on that ^^^

The reward system is part of the pain network ?

Life is complicated.
http://www.molecularpain.com/content/6/1/27

-*-

Overcome reward system Overcome pain ?

Overcome attraction to distressors (ie addictive substances) Overcome pain Overcome reward.

It seems backwards but works.

SB_UK
07-14-15, 04:06 AM
Narcotic - go slower - pain
Stimulant - go faster - reward

We know that mixing stimulant with narcotic produces an INTENSE high.

Presumably by homeostasis - it's the desire for a balanced state ie neither too high nor too low of factors from blood glucose to pH that we require.

A balance between stimulant (male archetype) and narcotic (female archetype).
Bit like between glutamate and GABA (GABor Mate).
glutamate (glucose - excitotoxin) and GABA (driven by ketosis - and as we see in the John Radcliffe diet for epilepsy - 'relaxothingy').
Same thing applies to SNS (excite by definition) and PNS (relax by definition).

What are we trying to do ?
Actually obtain a minimal, pared back balance.

What does that mean ?
Man and Woman (2 archetypes) people sitting perfectly still on a see-saw and not 2 people wildly swinging on a see-saw.

Trying to arrive at a way of describing an internal (middle) propulsion which requires male and female archetypal balance in order for that evolutionary structure to be completed.

So - that'd be the state of wisdom in which the dual state of excited/relaxed, good/evil, greed/hunger is overcome for a single state in which it's PAIN which is overcome.

Given that the reward system is part of the pain network

So - pain first and pleasure (deceiving as it is) ISN'T our friend - it's a byproduct of pain and is to be overcome.

Now - this is interesting because people generally call it pleasure / pain - but it's actually pain / pleasure.

Now ... ... we can return back to the substantia nigra and the apparent shift from free dopamine production (potentiated by stimulant meds) into dopamine polymerization into neuromelanin - this is consistent with overcoming pleasure / pain as the agent of pleasure (free dopamine) is being pared back.

Also - the paradoxical effect of stimulant meds.

ADDers are subject to increased pain - requiring increased stimulant meds to balance our state.

The meds are used to overcome stress / pain and not to excite us.

However - personal observation.
As we 'grow' understanding and we 'wean' ourselves off free dopamine - the meds switch from paradoxical into driving a standard (actually unpleasant) excitatory effect which takes in pain in the mouth and a whirring sensation in the brain ie

the meds are a sign that the individual is still in the primitive reward system (the pain part) but as the reward system si transcended - the meds cease to work ?

I think.

SB_UK
07-14-15, 04:34 AM
Could we learn or remember without unconditioned response systems?Open to the idea that school learning is based (for the most part) around fear.

Fear of looking stupid, falling behind, not getting a qualification, not getting into University, not getting a job.

So - the primary unconditioned responses could well be required for learning.

Funny - that we forget MOST of what we're taught under ^^^ this scheme as the 'fear' is discarded when we pass the associated exam.

No further 'fear' from not knowing - no requirement to use the information -

... ... the absence of a primary unconditioned response results in elimination of information from the mind ?

Wat would the key to learning be ?
That the individual wants to know (primary unconditioned system something like joy) in learning.

How would we ensure joy in learning ?
Define a human lifecycle.
Define what learning is meant to give to an individual (quality, morality and understanding of context ie art, social science and science).
Remove compulsion.
Remove competition.

Allow the individual to knock 'emself out.

someothertime
07-14-15, 05:43 AM
Negative emotional affective experiences (unsafe feelings) does not promote the development of higher cognitive areas.

P


Interestingly, it promotes emotional intensity amongst other things...

SB_UK
07-14-15, 09:20 AM
Interestingly, it promotes emotional intensity amongst other things...

Better to be on an even keel.

Suggesting absence of mood swings sounds a little like ?? lobotomizing ?? an individual into a zombie-like state
- but it's not like that and is more like submerging oneself in a deep daydream.

Definitely some endocannabinoid-like feelings involved.
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/126/6/1252
The user feels relaxed and calm, in a dreamlike state disconnected from real world. The intoxicated subject often has difficulty in carrying on a coherent conversation, and may drift into daydreams and fantasies. :-)

Well - if I had a penny for each time I've been accused of all of that on here well I'd have nearly 5 pence from this week alone.

mildadhd
07-14-15, 03:10 PM
..We know that in situations of fear in which the brain chooses the running options rather than freezing, the brain stem disengages part of the pain-transmission circuitry--a bit like pulling the phone plug.

The periaqueductal gray, which controls these responses, can also command the secretion of natural opioids and achieve precisely what taking an analgesic would achieve: elimination of pain signals.


Antonio Damasio, "SELF comes to MIND", Constructing The Conscious Brain, Chapter: Emotions and Feelings, P129.


The primary FEAR system reduces pain when threatened.

Mild threat = freeze response (disassociate)

Severe threat = flight response (escape)

Severe threat = fight response (usually when escape is not possible)

While long term severe threat makes ADHD impairment (interruption in prefrontal cortex development) more likely, different types of mild threat due to life distress/pain is most likely factor, in most children born with a more affective hypersensitive temperament.

Infants born with a more hypersensitive affective temperament, are distressed/threatened more easily.

I think it is also important to realize the prefrontal cortex is only about 5% undersized in people with ADHD.

The distress response mechanisms including primary social emotion PANIC/GRIEF (separation distress) are over stimulated during early life experiences.

CARE system is not the primary problem in ADHD, but slightly more stimulation of CARE system is part of the solution.

In the human infant, the growth of dopamine-rich nerve terminals and development of dopamine receptors is stimulated by the chemicals released in the brain during the experience of joy, the ecstatic joy that comes from the perfectly attuned mother-child mutual gaze interaction.

Happy interactions between mother and infant generate motivation and arousal by activating cells in the midbrain that release endorphins, thereby inducing in the infant a joyful, exhilarated state.

They also trigger the release of dopamine.

Both endorphins and dopamine promote the development of new connections in the prefrontal cortex.

Dopamine released from the midbrain also triggers the growth of the nerve cells and blood vessels in the right prefrontal cortex and promotes the growth of dopamine receptors.

A relative scarcity of such receptors and blood supply is thought to be one of the major physiological dimensions of ADD.

-Gabor Mate M.D. "Scattered", p 83.



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