View Full Version : Procrastination and General Social Weirdness


WearyWife
07-12-15, 12:31 PM
I haven't posted in a while. I have started my own little girls online boutique, which has saved my sanity, eased my loneliness, and is keeping us from overdrawing every month. He still hasn't found a job. I love him and have learned to cope with the constant lateness (he has gotten a little bit better), the lost articles, the doors and drawers always left open, his sometimes outbursts, but I am having a problem in the two areas I mentioned in my title.

The procrastination on critical financial decisions like putting off moving our retirement to another investment firm, until half of it was gone due to their poor management. (I asked him for over 2 years to move the money), getting a bill consolidation loan to lower our payments. I have asked for over an year and a half, now we are at the point where we are about to be unable to pay them. My little business is keeping us going, but my checking account is almost empty now. Most of the cards are in his name, so I fee he should initiate the loan, not me. I did initiate the refinancing of our house. All he had to do was sign the paperwork, which saved us about $400 a month. I am at the end of my rope on the finances. His unemployment ran out a couple of years ago. How do you get them to move on things?

As for the general weirdness thing. I am constantly making excuses for his strange behavior when we go out to any event. He gets irritable and grumpy, complains about having to go wherever. When we get there he is a bit distant, and gets up and is ready to leave before anyone else is ready. My family thinks this is weird and tell me so, as well as our friends we go out with. It can even be events we paid money to attend. He wants to be upstairs in his office doing whatever it is he does from sunup till dinnertime. He thinks he needs to be doing something else he deems is more important. He is overall good to me and they all appreciate that about him, but some of them think he is getting early Alzheimers. I try to explain it is the ADD. My girlfriends look at him like he is bossy and controlling with me and my family thinks he doesn't like them and is selfish. Most times after he gets into the evening he relaxes and enjoys himself, but he is still ready to leave before anyone else, not considering if I am ready to leave or not. Then he complains about the time being wasted. I hate ADD.
Sorry for the long post, but I felt I needed to explain it thoroughly. How have any of you handled these issues that actually worked.

dvdnvwls
07-12-15, 12:59 PM
When you say "procrastination" it's clear that you actually mean "money", because that's the only procrastination you've mentioned.

Don't concentrate on trying to fix his procrastination, or on trying to get him to fix his procrastination - you'll never win that way. Instead, because the situation is not working, change the situation.

Having the feeling that he should be the one to initiate: Not helping.

Asking the same question for years: Not helping.

Trying to get him to move on things: Not helping.

So find some strategies that do help.


If you wait for your ADHD husband/partner to do things "the right way", or especially if you wait for him to respond in "normal and appropriate" ways to requests that you make, you'll wait forever and nothing will ever happen. We can't do things the right way, that's why ADHD is a disorder and not a picnic. Instead, get creative. Do things the wrong way. (In other words, do things in any old way that gets the needed result.)

Willingness for things to be done in the wrong way, so long as they get done, is absolutely necessary when living with a person with ADHD. Including if he can't do something then do it yourself. Trade tasks with him - give him the things he's good at, you take the things he's not good at. It will save you a lot of grief.

About the weirdness: Do you want your real husband to come to these events? Or do you just want a date who behaves normally? You chose this man with ADHD. If you're not proud of him as he is, why did you choose him? Why are you not standing up for him against your family and friends? If you dislike him so much, then... well, I don't need to go there.

What about going to some events by yourself?

Unmanagable
07-12-15, 01:40 PM
I haven't posted in a while. I have started my own little girls online boutique, which has saved my sanity, eased my loneliness, and is keeping us from overdrawing every month. He still hasn't found a job. I love him and have learned to cope with the constant lateness (he has gotten a little bit better), the lost articles, the doors and drawers always left open, his sometimes outbursts, but I am having a problem in the two areas I mentioned in my title.

The procrastination on critical financial decisions like putting off moving our retirement to another investment firm, until half of it was gone due to their poor management. (I asked him for over 2 years to move the money), getting a bill consolidation loan to lower our payments. I have asked for over an year and a half, now we are at the point where we are about to be unable to pay them. My little business is keeping us going, but my checking account is almost empty now. Most of the cards are in his name, so I fee he should initiate the loan, not me. I did initiate the refinancing of our house. All he had to do was sign the paperwork, which saved us about $400 a month. I am at the end of my rope on the finances. His unemployment ran out a couple of years ago. How do you get them to move on things?

As for the general weirdness thing. I am constantly making excuses for his strange behavior when we go out to any event. He gets irritable and grumpy, complains about having to go wherever. When we get there he is a bit distant, and gets up and is ready to leave before anyone else is ready. My family thinks this is weird and tell me so, as well as our friends we go out with. It can even be events we paid money to attend. He wants to be upstairs in his office doing whatever it is he does from sunup till dinnertime. He thinks he needs to be doing something else he deems is more important. He is overall good to me and they all appreciate that about him, but some of them think he is getting early Alzheimers. I try to explain it is the ADD. My girlfriends look at him like he is bossy and controlling with me and my family thinks he doesn't like them and is selfish. Most times after he gets into the evening he relaxes and enjoys himself, but he is still ready to leave before anyone else, not considering if I am ready to leave or not. Then he complains about the time being wasted. I hate ADD.
Sorry for the long post, but I felt I needed to explain it thoroughly. How have any of you handled these issues that actually worked.

Speaking for myself, I "move on things" when I feel them from the heart and not from pressure someone else is putting on me to perform to their standards, especially if they haven't made time to learn more about mine, or if I feel like someone is attempting to "fix" me.

I remember when I married in to a ready made family, I damn near killed myself trying to maintain all the masks that society expected me to so I wouldn't appear to be "less than" those expectations. I felt weak whenever I had to bow out of something.

I wasn't doing it to spite my husband or his family, I was doing it to try to survive a day in my brain. Without the gentle patience and strong support of the hubster, who excels in the systems and processes that are my weakest, I would have given up.

He struggled for quite a while in not knowing how to effectively communicate with me. He was used to the typical responses and approaches to everything, all of which I am not, but through our 13 years, we've managed to grow closer and have a much deeper understanding of each others' "weirdness" aspects. Embrace the weird and live outside of the box, because it really can't be any other way from what I've experienced, no matter how hard we try to force it.

To hell with what everyone else thinks about him. What do you truly feel and think? Do their opinions have enough weight to alter your decisions within your relationship? Do you have the energy and desire that it will take to dive deeper into his brain and learn to neuro-navigate with him, instead of insisting he navigate it the way you and your loved ones feel is best?

stef
07-12-15, 01:47 PM
This is hard to read because there are aspects which are exactly what I dread in how others my perceive me.
Its so difficult to go to a social thing that you dont feel up to doing!

dvdnvwls
07-12-15, 03:00 PM
I realized that I can easily boil down what I said to just a few words:

If you insist on maintaining expectations that are obviously not working and not going to work, the grief and the lack of results are purely your own fault.

dvdnvwls
07-12-15, 05:22 PM
That's not to say your expectations were wrong in the first place. Everyone has initial expectations of how things are going to turn out - of course we all do - it's human nature to have expectations. The problem is, what do you do when certain expectations turn out to be unreasonable - blame the facts, or change the expectations?

VeryTired
07-14-15, 11:16 AM
Wearywife,

You sound very frustrated here--my sympathy to you. I think you already got some valuable replies to your post, but they probably aren't what you were hoping for, because they challenge more than they comfort. There's a lot of truth to what's been said, however.

I would frame it somewhat differently. Let's talk about you. Your husband's ADHD is causing your distress, and probably causing him distress as well. He doesn't have a choice about having ADHD, but he does have choices about how to handle it. Does he take medication? Or otherwise treat the ADHD? If not, have you and he discussed this? It's his right to do whatever he chooses--but it may be your necessity to leave the relationship if he isn't treating his disorder and that is too difficult for you to handle.

You can't change him--and you shouldn't seek to change him. But possibly there are changes he wishes to make himself, and which you can support him in making. And you certainly have a right to need what you need (financial stability, partnership, communication, whatever), and you can communicate with him about that. Try to be very clear about what you need for yourself, and to talk about that with your husband. Think about whether seeing a therapist will help you to concentrate on yourself, your needs.

You asked what works for other people. What works in my relationship is that my partner takes his medication and attend his adults-with-ADHD therapy group--and that I see a therapist myself. My partner has been very active in choices to make changes in his life for himself, and many of these have been very valuable for me, and for our relationship as well. I don't know if we will stay together, but I do know that I wouldn't be able to stand the stresses of things like the procrastination and social awkwardness that you mention if we did not have a lot of progress and success happening in other areas.

sarahsweets
07-14-15, 12:24 PM
If he never changed would you still want to be with him? As far as the money thing goes, he obviously cant do it on his own or at least not to your standards so you should handle it. Plain and simple, you cant f**k around with money so you should take over. As far as being weird, you fell in love with this weirdo and until other people started sticking their judgemental nose in your business you loved him for who he is. People who think hes weird can go f**k themselves.

Abi
07-14-15, 12:26 PM
:goodpost:

acdc01
07-15-15, 06:54 PM
I have a strong aversion to dealing with finances and I too always jump up ready to leave at the dinner table before everyone else is ready.

For the social thing, I'm much better when I have dinner with just 3 people in the room (you, your guest, and your husband). In a quiet comfortable setting like at home instead of at some big party or noisy restaurant somewhere. The difference is actually remarkable for me. It's about how much stimulation surrounds me - there's just too much going on in larger group settings in noisy environments - I can't filter it out as well as NTs can.

If your husband experiences the same thing, maybe have him try having more social interactions with others in this type of setting. Then the few times he absolutely must go to bigger ones, people will know it's because of his ADHD that he's acting this way cause he was acting better in the more intimate setting. Another idea is social settings where he doesn't have to talk much and gets to do what he's enjoying. Like if he likes bike riding - there's less talking and he gets to do what he likes putting him in a better mood. I assume he knows how you feel about his behavior. If not, you should tell him your concerns in a nice tone. Ask him what would make it easier for him to handle social interactions with your friends and family.

In terms of finances, I think this is an area where you should adjust your mentality. What's important is that each of you are tackling an equal amount of the household chores so that it is fair to both of you. But why can't you take care of the finances while he takes care of say buying the electronic devices for the family or something else where he might be stronger and you may be weaker at? Even though you'd be taking on different tasks it's still fair cause you both would still be doing an equal amount of work.

You're family will be much stronger this way cause you've got your strongest team member doing the task they are strong at. It's like with sports teams, players don't rotate into different positions all the time. One person is assigned as the quarterback cause that's the role that best suits them. Another is tight end and so forth. Your team just performs better this way. And it's fair. Each person pulls his weigh even if his role is unique to himself.

I'd try this to alleviate his stress in terms of finances so that he can focus on the most important thing - getting a job.

I still have difficulties taking care my money. It's only now that I would really like to retire and that I've been diagnosed that I've gotten off my butt to do something. And actually that alone wouldn't be enough. It's someone else telling me about their retirement all the time that makes me keep thinking about retiring that makes me do something (external motivation). He can try finding something like this but it's really hard to find. I actually don't know how long I'm going to stay motivated. Assigning tasks like a football team works much better and is very fair if you distribute the work evenly.

VeryTired
07-15-15, 07:19 PM
acdc01,

I find your post very helpful, very clear. Thank you! I have discussed some of these kinds of issues with my partner previously, but he has never been able to explain his feelings and needs to me the way you did, and I have had trouble understanding some of his concerns in the past. Now I think I can understand him better by analogy with what you wrote.

What you say about family-as-team could work very well for some people, and you did a great job making it clear how that would look. But some people actually don't want their intimate life partnership to work like a football team--they want more mutuality and shared experience, and less distribution of functions. I have no idea what the OP feels, and everyone is different. I am just saying that what you suggest is one solution that can work for some people, but others may not be able to do this.

Just as you thrive best in the football scenario, some other kinds of people may be stressed, overwhelmed, unsupported or frustrated by it. (That would be me.) All couples have to work out issues and disparate assumptions about what's normal, inevitable, natural, right, desirable, etc etc, but couples with one ADHD partner and one non-ADHD partner may find themselves particularly challenged in this regard.

I am realizing that I may have to live life as part of a football team (in your terms) if I want to stay together with my partner. But that isn't how I've ever wanted to live, not what I went into the relationship looking for, not what I told my partner I wanted when we first got involved, and not what he SAID he wanted back then. I think it is turning out that this IS what he needs, however, and I don't know if he was confused when he previously said otherwise, or if he was just trying to tell me what I wanted to hear …

People need what they need, and needs are not typically negotiable. One thing I have often found is that my partner's needs seem to take center stage far more often than my own, despite pretty consistent efforts on my part to reapportion the division of focus. I don't think his being more emphatic, or having ADHD makes his needs more important than mine (and I don't think he thinks so, either), but it can be very hard sometimes for a non-ADHD partner's needs to be accommodated as well.

This stuff can be complicated ...

acdc01
07-16-15, 08:55 AM
I am realizing that I may have to live life as part of a football team (in your terms) if I want to stay together with my partner. But that isn't how I've ever wanted to live

Thanks for your compliment on my post. I can understand you needing and wanting something different. Everyone is different so there isnít a blanket solution that can work for everyone. Your husband very possibly did not understand himself when he told you he wanted the same thing. With ADHD education as poor as it is, we often donít understand ourselves (though if he did understand and lied to you, I would be ****** off).

If you want less distribution of functions and more shared responsibilities then, in my opinion, creative solutions like dvdnvwls suggested would be a good way to go. It does often work. Itís possible there are solutions that can keep both of you happy. If you want more specifics on how to achieve this, he/you really have to ask about specific tasks.

My overall motto though for finding creative solutions is usually ďno pain = gainĒ. I look at the steps involved in the problem task, I identify what steps cause me the greatest ďpainĒ, and I find creatives solutions for minimizing/mitigating that pain. I also infuse my task with as much pleasure as possible.

Also, sometimes ADHDers can achieve the goals you wish them to in ways you donít expect. Like with me, I may be terrible with monitoring my finances but I actually have more money than most. I was able to achieve this both because Iím very good at figuring out creative ways to cut down on costs (while still being able to maintain the lifestyle I enjoy) and also because I make more money than average. So you and your husband shouldnít just look at how to accomplish particular tasks, but look at the big picture and consider whether you can achieve your overall goals in a different way so you donít have to do the task at all.

Also, could you handle compromising and maybe do the family team thing with just the one or two functions heís the worst at or maybe just the quick, one time tasks like hiring a financial advisor (takes time to improve so one time things so are not worth all the effort of solving sometimes)? Are there some tasks like maybe fixing toilet, walking the dog, having to move furniture, setting up electronics, etc. that you absolutely hate doing? I actually apply the football team concept not only to romantic partners but pretty much all types of relationships I have. Most people not only tolerate it but end up absolutely loving it cause they get to not do what they hate (though of course everyone is different and if you canít stand doing this even for one thing, well then donít - you shouldnít sacrifice yourself for your husband). Now that I think of it, nearly every family I know of plays the football team on at least some tasks (i.e. Husband takes out the garbage, wife drives the kids to school). You can still have many and even mostly shared experiences, just a few that arenít.

acdc01
07-16-15, 09:09 AM
In terms of finding a job OP, your biggest need at the moment. There's only been one thing that's worked for me on this - external pressure. I've only ever succeeded in applying for jobs when I've felt strong external pressure. Like my sister and I would agree on a time where she would be sitting in the same empty, silent room as me while I completed a single task (i.e. searched for jobs to apply for). She could do other things like you could work on your online store so it's really not much an inconvenience to you at all (though my sister opted to look for jobs with me). The next day, we would sit again for another couple hours and I would apply for the jobs I found. So one step at a time with a body double. Your husband has to agree with this idea cause otherwise he may just spend the whole time acting like a whiny baby making you even angrier. But if he does agree, well it's always worked the best for me though all ADHDers are different.

willow129
07-16-15, 01:16 PM
I have not read everything here but you NEED to take the money out of his hands. That needs to happen YESTERDAY. He is clearly not up to it and you are. You are setting YOU up for more difficulty if you don't take that responsibility off of him.

As far as the social situations, it sounds like he has some anxiety associated with that. Maybe? It's common in ADHD. What I'm picturing, basically, is someone who's really uncomfortable around people. I wonder, if you want to spend social time together, if you can ensure that it's going to be with people he really likes or at a place he feels comfortable. (Like maybe at home)
I get overwhelmed with too much social time and I feel like I can start to behave similarly - at least with the being grumpy about going, complaining, wanting to leave early. For me, that just means, I go to less social events, my partner goes to some without me. That is totally ok with me. I get to have rejuvenate at home time (which INEED) and he gets to see his friends. We are both happier when we reunite. As far as being up in the office, it just sounds like he needs alone time. I'm the same.

Also, when you decide to go to an event, what if you did a compromise like this: You both come up with a length of time that he'll be ok staying, and in return he does not say he wants to leave early (before that specified time) and tries to relax and enjoy himself. Stay for the specified amount of time and then go. This amount of time might be a little shorter than you like, but he may be more relaxed knowing there's a specific ending and he can sort of plan out the evening in his head.

salleh
07-16-15, 01:49 PM
....whoa I have certainly learned a lot fro this thread ! thanks guys !

WearyWife
07-20-15, 02:35 PM
When you say "procrastination" it's clear that you actually mean "money", because that's the only procrastination you've mentioned.

Don't concentrate on trying to fix his procrastination, or on trying to get him to fix his procrastination - you'll never win that way. Instead, because the situation is not working, change the situation.

Having the feeling that he should be the one to initiate: Not helping.

Asking the same question for years: Not helping.

Trying to get him to move on things: Not helping.

So find some strategies that do help.


If you wait for your ADHD husband/partner to do things "the right way", or especially if you wait for him to respond in "normal and appropriate" ways to requests that you make, you'll wait forever and nothing will ever happen. We can't do things the right way, that's why ADHD is a disorder and not a picnic. Instead, get creative. Do things the wrong way. (In other words, do things in any old way that gets the needed result.)

Willingness for things to be done in the wrong way, so long as they get done, is absolutely necessary when living with a person with ADHD. Including if he can't do something then do it yourself. Trade tasks with him - give him the things he's good at, you take the things he's not good at. It will save you a lot of grief.

About the weirdness: Do you want your real husband to come to these events? Or do you just want a date who behaves normally? You chose this man with ADHD. If you're not proud of him as he is, why did you choose him? Why are you not standing up for him against your family and friends? If you dislike him so much, then... well, I don't need to go there.

What about going to some events by yourself?
I was just asking for advice, he is not the same as when we first got married. We have been married for over 12 years and were together for 2 years prior. I have tried all the usual things to help him and get things done. I have taken over the finances. I am here still because I love him very much. Maybe my description of my situation was colored by the frustration at the moment. I was looking for specifics. I do advocate for him with my family and remind them of his ADD. But I do think in public it is not too much to at least be pleasant, which he was in the past. This is a new behavior for him. I was reaching out for help and advice, because I love him and don't want us to go under. I guess I just needed some support and kindness. I am a heart transplant patient who wants to live life to the fullest, since I came so close to losing my life and I want him to enjoy it, too. I also have Graves Eye Disease and am awaiting muscle surgery so I can't go out alone to events or anywhere since I am seeing double and can no longer drive until the surgery. I am having to wait until Sept. to be sure my eyes don't worsen before surgery, so going out alone is not an option at this time. I have gone without him to family functions when he didn't want to go, with my daughter and her family, but I do want to share my time with him, too. I am cutting all unnecessary expenses and my family has loaned us some money to help, so I am seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. I am also helping him by looking up jobs for him on the internet that are within his field because he gets bogged down and distracted with too many choices. I guess that sometimes when it becomes so overwhelming and you feel so helpless and alone you have to vent. I guess the person who replied (dvdnwls)doesn't understand. I love him or I wouldn't be looking for answers or help or compassion for the frustration. I have dealt with my share of medical issues and I have been able to deal with those because they are my issues and I know how to handle them, but this is different. I try to be supportive and encouraging. Some of you have offered great input on things to help with the issues and I thank you with all my heart. That is what I was looking for. It was my understanding that this forum was for support for NonADD spouses looking for answers, help and encouragement and to those who have offered that I am most appreciative. I have read some posts that were extremely helpful and I will try them. Thank you so much and I am sorry this post was so long.

dvdnvwls
07-20-15, 02:50 PM
I do understand. I understand far better than you do, and that's why I responded - giving you what you need, instead of what you mistakenly/naively asked for. My wife left me a couple of years ago in a similar frustration, saying many of the same things and making many of the same mistakes. Every time that I can, I try to show people in similar situations a better way. Your usual way of thinking, your usual way of responding to your husband, is not working because you're doing it wrong. Despite what you say, it's not his fault - or not ALL his fault anyway.

WearyWife
07-20-15, 03:05 PM
Wearywife,

You sound very frustrated here--my sympathy to you. I think you already got some valuable replies to your post, but they probably aren't what you were hoping for, because they challenge more than they comfort. There's a lot of truth to what's been said, however.

I would frame it somewhat differently. Let's talk about you. Your husband's ADHD is causing your distress, and probably causing him distress as well. He doesn't have a choice about having ADHD, but he does have choices about how to handle it. Does he take medication? Or otherwise treat the ADHD? If not, have you and he discussed this? It's his right to do whatever he chooses--but it may be your necessity to leave the relationship if he isn't treating his disorder and that is too difficult for you to handle.

You can't change him--and you shouldn't seek to change him. But possibly there are changes he wishes to make himself, and which you can support him in making. And you certainly have a right to need what you need (financial stability, partnership, communication, whatever), and you can communicate with him about that. Try to be very clear about what you need for yourself, and to talk about that with your husband. Think about whether seeing a therapist will help you to concentrate on yourself, your needs.

You asked what works for other people. What works in my relationship is that my partner takes his medication and attend his adults-with-ADHD therapy group--and that I see a therapist myself. My partner has been very active in choices to make changes in his life for himself, and many of these have been very valuable for me, and for our relationship as well. I don't know if we will stay together, but I do know that I wouldn't be able to stand the stresses of things like the procrastination and social awkwardness that you mention if we did not have a lot of progress and success happening in other areas.
Thank you, Very Tired. I see that you "get me". I love him with all my heart and soul and have bought every book in print that I can find on ADD and ADD Relationships, so I know a great deal about it, but knowledge is one thing but as you know, everyday living is difficult. I am dealing with my own health issues, which make it a little harder. He is on medication and has been on it for years. He worked with a therapist when we lived in CA, but when we moved to GA he is just having it monitored by our PC Physician and pretty much tells the doc what he thinks he needs.He has drastically lowered it since moving here. I see a therapist on my own. He goes with me. He is very supportive. He knows I get frustrated and he gets frustrated with me, too. You know how sometimes you need another solution to a problem. I know what I have been doing has not worked and I have changed some ways and tried other things. I was hoping for help from people who had things that do work to share with me and I have. I plan on trying acdc01's suggestion of the way to do the job search and I appreciate willow's comments on the social aspects. We seldom go to large gatherings and usually he is the one who buys the tickets to these. Normally what I was referring is a family birthday dinner consisting of my son and daughter, their spouses and kids or our Friday night dinner group consisting of about 4-5 couples. He loves to socialize more than I do, until the time comes sometimes to actually go and he decides there is something else he would rather do. Those are the times of frustration. My family all like him and know I love him and accept him with his moodiness, because they know he is a good guy and is good to me and I love him, but being human, they do get annoyed sometimes when he is like that and he is not always like that, just if there is something he is doing that he doesn't want to leave. You have all been very helpful and I thank you for it. I have a few new insights and things to work on.

WearyWife
07-20-15, 03:14 PM
I do understand. I understand far better than you do, and that's why I responded - giving you what you need, instead of what you mistakenly/naively asked for. My wife left me a couple of years ago in a similar frustration, saying many of the same things and making many of the same mistakes. Every time that I can, I try to show people in similar situations a better way. Your usual way of thinking, your usual way of responding to your husband, is not working because you're doing it wrong. Despite what you say, it's not his fault - or not ALL his fault anyway.
I do not plan to leave. I love him. That is why I was asking for help. Being in a financial bind is nothing I have ever experienced in a marriage. I have had hard times, like after my divorce from my first husband, but I had only myself and my children to take care of, not another adult with their expenses and I worked and sold my wedding rings and other belongings and did whatever to make it. Now I am on disability and can't work, or I would have already had a job. I am excellent at finance and I realize I should have never let him handle the finances for so long, but fearing hurting his pride I kept quiet and tried to trust him. I knew I should take it over and have now. So going forward there won't be a problem, because I will cut what I have to, or sell my belongings but I will not go under. My credit score has always been over 800 and I plan to keep it that way. I do appreciate your input and am always open for suggestions and solutions. I will keep checking back and will let you know how we are doing.

WearyWife
07-20-15, 03:31 PM
I have not read everything here but you NEED to take the money out of his hands. That needs to happen YESTERDAY. He is clearly not up to it and you are. You are setting YOU up for more difficulty if you don't take that responsibility off of him.

As far as the social situations, it sounds like he has some anxiety associated with that. Maybe? It's common in ADHD. What I'm picturing, basically, is someone who's really uncomfortable around people. I wonder, if you want to spend social time together, if you can ensure that it's going to be with people he really likes or at a place he feels comfortable. (Like maybe at home)
I get overwhelmed with too much social time and I feel like I can start to behave similarly - at least with the being grumpy about going, complaining, wanting to leave early. For me, that just means, I go to less social events, my partner goes to some without me. That is totally ok with me. I get to have rejuvenate at home time (which INEED) and he gets to see his friends. We are both happier when we reunite. As far as being up in the office, it just sounds like he needs alone time. I'm the same.

Also, when you decide to go to an event, what if you did a compromise like this: You both come up with a length of time that he'll be ok staying, and in return he does not say he wants to leave early (before that specified time) and tries to relax and enjoy himself. Stay for the specified amount of time and then go. This amount of time might be a little shorter than you like, but he may be more relaxed knowing there's a specific ending and he can sort of plan out the evening in his head.
He is very social, more than I am, actually, and I am very outgoing. He usually initiates the social things. In fact, he seems to crave social interaction. Sometimes he will want to go out to eat just to interact with the waitstaff or he will go ask another couple he sees there that we know to join us. He just gets moody whenever there is something he is in the middle of doing and has lost track of time and then realizes we have a commitment, even if he is the one who extended the invitation or it has been on our calendar for a month. That is where the frustration is. It seems like polar opposite from what you would expect. He is not an introvert like I thought him to be when we first met. He will ask anybody to do anything for him without qualm, whereas, I would never impose on anyone to do anything for me. So, social awkwardness is not it.

acdc01
07-20-15, 04:51 PM
For getting him to tear himself away from whatever he's doing, try telling him he can still do whatever he's doing for a half hour before he has to start getting ready for the event. At 5 minutes in advance, do the same thing (you can try having him set notifications in his phone if you get tired of this though I'm not sure if it will work as well).

Another thing that works in terms of tearing me away from something is to entice me with something else that I like even more. Like my sister wanted me to go into another room and I couldn't bring myself to do it so she mentioned that the cats were there too and suddenly, it got easier to go. After I told her how to "trick" me, she can actually play me to do almost anything which is a good and bad thing lol.

An offer of ice cream would work for me too and time required to eat it is finite so if you give it to me half hour in advance of me having to get ready, well I could start getting ready right after I ate the ice cream.

If you have grandkids that are toddlers, most tricks for getting them to do stuff without crying may work for us too so you can learn from your interactions with them. Sad to say, but I think part of our brain didn't develop properly so is immature and we respond similarly to toddlers sometimes.

I know you said this doesn't bug you anymore but there are self-closing drawer slides and door hinges (see below as example) just as an FYI. I imagine you have bigger fish to fry but my point here is that you can take heart in that, in my opinion, there often is a solution to most ADHD problems with a little creativity. It's really the comorbids that in my opinion make us so much worse and I'm somewhat afraid your husband may have a comorbid that needs to be fixed too now (after two years unemployed, I can see that happening).

I'm amazed at you non-adhd partners posting here by the way and I admire your strength and dedication. Wish I had a partner like you guys. Hope things get better for your families.


http://homeguides.sfgate.com/adjust-automatic-closing-drawers-27615.html

dvdnvwls
07-20-15, 05:16 PM
He is very social, more than I am, actually, and I am very outgoing. He usually initiates the social things. In fact, he seems to crave social interaction. Sometimes he will want to go out to eat just to interact with the waitstaff or he will go ask another couple he sees there that we know to join us. He just gets moody whenever there is something he is in the middle of doing and has lost track of time and then realizes we have a commitment, even if he is the one who extended the invitation or it has been on our calendar for a month. That is where the frustration is. It seems like polar opposite from what you would expect. He is not an introvert like I thought him to be when we first met. He will ask anybody to do anything for him without qualm, whereas, I would never impose on anyone to do anything for me. So, social awkwardness is not it.

I am like this. On the well-known personality scales I am obviously an introvert, but (the polar opposite thing just as you described) somehow I'm an introvert who craves social interaction. Maybe certain combinations (ADHD plus a certain personality type) create this odd situation - I don't know.

acdc01 has given some good suggestions. I'll just add back something I mentioned before: if a good reasonable strategy is not working, then it's not a good reasonable strategy anymore. Get creative. Try out strategies that seem crazy. Laugh more. Let yourself drop the seriousness and just explore different possibilities for a while. ADHD does not make sense and it never will. It takes a big effort for a very reasonable person such as yourself to admit that reason and right thinking have utterly failed and that it's time to try something else.

VeryTired
07-20-15, 05:39 PM
Hi, WearyWife--

Look at how our names are parallel--we probably share some experiences. Big sympathy to you regarding all the health issues. I worry a lot about all the ways in which it is hard for my partner to support me when I have health problems, and I wonder what the future will hold when we are older. So I can see how this could be weighing on you.

I also can relate to what you say about your husband's changing since you first knew him. There have been a number of discussions about this phenomenon here, and I find that it's something that non-ADHD partners often experience as very distressing, whereas many of the people posting here who have ADHD seem to minimize it, or suggest that it happens to everyone. No offense to them, but what I believe is that there is a very specific pattern of change in relationships over time that many people with ADHD have, and most people without ADHD do not. You'll hear that a lot form non-ADHD partners of people with ADHD.

When it comes to sometimes not being minimally pleasant, abruptly changing plans, being unable to handle finances and being sensitive about that inability--well, I know all those problems very very well. I think these are things caused by classic aspects of ADHD. Being medicated and wanting to work on such issues is what has made things better with my partner--I found that there was almost nothing I could do about the problems myself. He had to want to address them, and when he did, there was improvement. At first I thought I had to work and change to fix this--but as it turns out, the problems come from his ADHD and I can't do anything about that by working and changing. This was super-hard to learn at first, but then in a way validating, too.

Let us know how you're doing, and how things go with you. All good wishes to you and to your husband--

Lunamoth
07-20-15, 05:54 PM
I know you said this doesn't bug you anymore but there are self-closing drawer slides and door hinges (see below as example) just as an FYI.

GENIUS!! Thank you! We are so putting these in our kitchen. I used to think my husband must have been born in a tent. Drives me batty when the toddler runs for the open cupboards and drawers and throws everything on the floor!

Hi Weary, I'm sorry I have nothing useful to add to your thread, everyone here has such good advice. The only thing I'd say is to brush off any negative comments your friends or family make about your husband in social settings. Or maybe tell them that you find such comments hurtful. They should know your husband well enough by now to accept how he is, and they should know better than to make you feel awkward or embarrassed by him, even when he's at his worst.

It sounds like you're both going through a tough time, and you need to cut yourselves some slack. I find that when I am having a hard time and need my husband's support he can be overwhelmed by the responsibility and end up needing *my* support more than usual. It is so incredibly unhelpful and frustrates me no end but it seems to be the general pattern. Maybe your husband is more affected by your health concerns than he is letting on, maybe he is afraid and overwhelmed? Have you always been the "strong" one in your relationship and he is uncomfortable with taking on that role?

I hope your surgery goes well, Graves sounds a really difficult and frustrating thing to cope with. Best of luck.

Lunamoth
07-20-15, 06:02 PM
I also can relate to what you say about your husband's changing since you first knew him. There have been a number of discussions about this phenomenon here, and I find that it's something that non-ADHD partners often experience as very distressing, whereas many of the people posting here who have ADHD seem to minimize it, or suggest that it happens to everyone. No offense to them, but what I believe is that there is a very specific pattern of change in relationships over time that many people with ADHD have, and most people without ADHD do not. You'll hear that a lot form non-ADHD partners of people with ADHD.

This x 1,000. I know the person I first knew is underneath there somewhere, but I'm not sure I'll ever see him again. I'm having to fall in love with a new person altogether - he generally looks the same but doesn't act it! To say it's a hard adjustment doesn't begin to describe it.

Luvmybully
07-20-15, 06:04 PM
I'll just add back something I mentioned before: if a good reasonable strategy is not working, then it's not a good reasonable strategy anymore. Get creative. Try out strategies that seem crazy. Laugh more. Let yourself drop the seriousness and just explore different possibilities for a while. ADHD does not make sense and it never will. It takes a big effort for a very reasonable person such as yourself to admit that reason and right thinking have utterly failed and that it's time to try something else.

Yes! yes yes yes!

Be creative. Just toss any kind of pre-determined ideas about what should be and focus on what is

I had a long detailed post typed up and my granddaughter hit the keyboard and erased it all. Good thing she is ridiculously adorable.

My husband and I don't have a typical relationship, we have been together since we were 12 years old. So there are a lot of things I can not relate to. He has adhd. I do not. (I have GAD)

But the main thing that has kept us together is we just don't care about typical or normal. We have no pre-conceived ideas about what we want our relationship to be. We just want our relationship to succeed. That's about IT for our priorities. Whatever it takes, our marriage, our relationship, is the #1 priority.

We both have accepted each other's strengths and weaknesses and shortcomings. Not having to worry that your partner is going to be mad at you, or criticize, or be disappointed, creates a very safe environment.

Having the security and safety of total acceptance allows us both to grow. We both have our issues, but worrying about our partner not handling our issues is not one of them.

I do adore my husband, and it sounds like you adore yours too.

Left open EVERYTHING he comes into contact with, all lights on, having no clue about finances, his AWFUL emotional dysregulation, none of that is more important than HIM. HE is what matters to me. Everything else is just not worth the effort to even get upset about.

This was not an instant thng to happen. We grew up together, from childhood to adulthood, as a couple, and it's now been 33 years. So we have had a long time to get to where we are now.

Having a partner with adhd really makes you re-evaluate your priorities and expectations. He has to deal with my anxiety too. Before either of us decides to take a stand about anything, we ask how important is it. Really. A year from now. 10 years from now. How much is this REALLY going to matter.

It helps us prioritize.

I know I've left something out, I am sure I will think about it when I am JUST about to finally fall alseep.

acdc01
07-20-15, 09:07 PM
I also can relate to what you say about your husband's changing since you first knew him. There have been a number of discussions about this phenomenon here, and I find that it's something that non-ADHD partners often experience as very distressing, whereas many of the people posting here who have ADHD seem to minimize it, or suggest that it happens to everyone.

Woah! I had no idea, I don't usually frequent this subforum. My psychiatrist told me ADHD doesn't change with time (barring becoming senile adding on top of ADHD or menopausal changes doing the same).

Is this because the ADHD symptoms get worse from a biological standpoint or is it cause life wears them down more than other folks? Thought it could be the development of a comorbid instead of the ADHD itself - maybe I'm wrong.

dvdnvwls
07-21-15, 12:23 AM
Woah! I had no idea, I don't usually frequent this subforum. My psychiatrist told me ADHD doesn't change with time (barring becoming senile adding on top of ADHD or menopausal changes doing the same).

Is this because the ADHD symptoms get worse from a biological standpoint or is it cause life wears them down more than other folks? Thought it could be the development of a comorbid instead of the ADHD itself - maybe I'm wrong.

I think (and I may be wrong) that what's being discussed here is a sort of honeymoon-ending reversion to the person's "regular self". I have heard non-ADHD people say that everyone does it but (according to them) ADHDers do it worse.

vpilar
07-21-15, 07:15 AM
I haven't posted in a while. I have started my own little girls online boutique, which has saved my sanity, eased my loneliness, and is keeping us from overdrawing every month. He still hasn't found a job. I love him and have learned to cope with the constant lateness (he has gotten a little bit better), the lost articles, the doors and drawers always left open, his sometimes outbursts, but I am having a problem in the two areas I mentioned in my title.

The procrastination on critical financial decisions like putting off moving our retirement to another investment firm, until half of it was gone due to their poor management. (I asked him for over 2 years to move the money), getting a bill consolidation loan to lower our payments. I have asked for over an year and a half, now we are at the point where we are about to be unable to pay them. My little business is keeping us going, but my checking account is almost empty now. Most of the cards are in his name, so I fee he should initiate the loan, not me. I did initiate the refinancing of our house. All he had to do was sign the paperwork, which saved us about $400 a month. I am at the end of my rope on the finances. His unemployment ran out a couple of years ago. How do you get them to move on things?

As for the general weirdness thing. I am constantly making excuses for his strange behavior when we go out to any event. He gets irritable and grumpy, complains about having to go wherever. When we get there he is a bit distant, and gets up and is ready to leave before anyone else is ready. My family thinks this is weird and tell me so, as well as our friends we go out with. It can even be events we paid money to attend. He wants to be upstairs in his office doing whatever it is he does from sunup till dinnertime. He thinks he needs to be doing something else he deems is more important. He is overall good to me and they all appreciate that about him, but some of them think he is getting early Alzheimers. I try to explain it is the ADD. My girlfriends look at him like he is bossy and controlling with me and my family thinks he doesn't like them and is selfish. Most times after he gets into the evening he relaxes and enjoys himself, but he is still ready to leave before anyone else, not considering if I am ready to leave or not. Then he complains about the time being wasted. I hate ADD.
Sorry for the long post, but I felt I needed to explain it thoroughly. How have any of you handled these issues that actually worked.

The only problem I saw here was that "he hasn't found a job"! The rest sounds pretty normal to me! :cool::scratch::eyebrow:

Listening
07-21-15, 09:32 AM
I think (and I may be wrong) that what's being discussed here is a sort of honeymoon-ending reversion to the person's "regular self". I have heard non-ADHD people say that everyone does it but (according to them) ADHDers do it worse.

I believe ADHDers do it worse and more abruptly. Part of that being the hyperfocus being so intense in the Honeymoon phase that literally disappears.

I think a non ADDer enjoys the newness yet is still being them self. As the newness wears off things change and an effort has to be made to make things feel new and exciting again.

I am working to make those efforts. Being a distraction works best for me. I see my wife does make efforts when she knows I am. If I take her away for a weekend just for us. Even though she can zone into the phone. I see her reminding herself to put it down and talk. But she has to make herself do it. In a normal day at home, she does not put it down or even think about putting it down.

Luvmybully
07-21-15, 11:53 AM
I believe ADHDers do it worse and more abruptly. Part of that being the hyperfocus being so intense in the Honeymoon phase that literally disappears.

I think a non ADDer enjoys the newness yet is still being them self. As the newness wears off things change and an effort has to be made to make things feel new and exciting again.



I do not have personal experience with this; I met my husband when we were 10 and we were dating at 12, so of course we aren't the same people anymore.

But I think this has way more to do with sustainability than newness.

As in, the one with adhd may be able to cope/deal/handle their adhd in a certain way while in the begining/new/exciting phase of a relationship, but may not be able to sustain that coping long term.

When the difficulty of dealing with adhd creeps back, as it always will, and there are now expectations that what you once did, you should be able to always do, is now there, but you do not ALSO have any long term sucessful methods to make it happen, eventually they just can't do it anymore.

It is that safe environment I was talking about. If they KNOW their adhd symptoms that are now once again front and center in their life. are going to be met with anger/disappointment/disapproval/fear/worry...so many neagtive ways, then they do not feel safe to be THEM in their own dang home.

HOW is a person WITH a disability like adhd supposed to deal with that?

We are not speaking of NT people, who have the luxury of a brain that does not hinder them from doing the daily tasks of life. We are speaking of someone who is already at a disadvantage, who now has to deal with emotional baggage of their partner PLUS their own emotional stuff about how that makes them feel.

Guilt. Sorrow. Anxiety. Disappointed in themselves. Frustration. HOW in the world could ANYONE continue to function in a healthy way with this, never mind someone with adhd that was already struggling with symptoms?

The non-adhd partner so very frequently has the "fix them" mentality. MUST fix them. MUST "help" them do the things the non-adhd partner feels they should be able to do.

More pressure on the adhd sufferer. More feelings of inadequacy. More of "I am not good enough". I am flawed. I MUST WORK, work work work, work more, work harder, work smarter, WORK! to fix myself.

This is not sustainable.

For the non-adhd partner - YOU are the one that has the ABILITY to change. Your views. Your expectations. Your reactions. Your attitude. YOU can do it so easily. Do you not realize what a GIFT that ability is??

Maybe if the one that CAN adapt makes the adhd sufferer feel SAFE to be them, that adhd sufferer will be able to work on symptoms. There MUST be security to fail for them to even attempt it in the first place.

You would NEVER expect your paralized spouse to eventually be able to get up the stairs in their wheelchair. You adapt. You change the environment. You have REALISTIC expectations.

ADHD is not 100% fixable. There is no permanent cure. If you love someone with adhd, and you have the luxury of not having it, YOU adapt. YOU be flexible. You can not repeatedly tell them their adhd is letting you down and expect them to be able to do something about it. If you feel like they should constantly be fighting it, and always working working working to fix themselves, their just going to burn out. Shut down. Become angry or bitter or depressed. Feel hopeless.

I have a husband with adhd and 2 children diagnosed with it, and I am pretty certain my son has it also. He has cerebral palsey and THAT has always been the obvious thing. All of them are so very different. One daughter did not get diagnosed until grad school!

I do not like adhd, but I love my family and I KNOW successful relationships are very possible. But geesh don't ask too much of them.

dvdnvwls
07-21-15, 12:29 PM
:goodpost::thankyou:

Luvmybully:

If I ruled the world,

then your post just above this would replace the entire Non-ADD Partner Support section of ADDF. It would also be the only page in every book ever written for non-ADHD spouses of people with ADHD.

Thank you.

VeryTired
07-21-15, 02:29 PM
acdc01,

This is a matter of degree, perception and perspective--like so many things! In a sense I'd say dvdnvwls has it right, yet too me it's so much more. When non-ADHD partners of people with ADHD talk amongst themselves, there is frequently desperation, frustration, confusion, devastation about the enormity of the change which occurred in their partners, which seems vastly out of scale to the ways they've changed themselves over the same span of time.

I don't mean just reverting to everyday life after spending a while amidst the delights of new love. I mean substantial and disturbing changes in behavior and attitude, the (apparent) transformation of values, goals and attitudes, and a feeling of "who IS this person?" When I first met my partner I "knew" it would be a great relationship because one of my biggest needs was being super-abundantly met without my even having to ask--no one has ever paid attention to me the way he did. I felt known, listened to, appreciated, noticed in deep and fulfilling ways. And I wanted a relationship in which both people were closely focussed upon each other and upon their relationship as well as having their independent concerns. And my partner said what a coincidence it was that he wanted exactly this also.

Nowadays, I find it almost impossible to be heard most of the time, appreciation comes and goes, I don't feel known at all and wonder if I was mistaken that I once did, and being noticed by my partner generally seems to be out of the question. The thoughtful guy who could focus so well on me literally does not exist anymore. The kind of relationship we both once said we wanted is not the kind we have defaulted to having.

I have heard stories of couples coming home from their honeymoons and it being like a light switch was flipped--a sudden checking out of the ADHD partner's ability to pay attention to the spouse. It strikes me that many non-ADHD partners of people with ADHD instantly respond to this issue with familiarity, while most people with ADHD don't seem to think it happens, or that it isn't a big deal if it does. To me, that kind of confirms that yes, this really is a thing, and it really is about differences between people with ADHD and people without.

I think that what luvmybully wrote is beautiful. It's smart, sensitive and honorable. And if one's highest priority is to be in a relationship with this particular partner, who happens to have ADHD, this is definitely the way to do it. But some people find themselves not sure they can or should have the kind of relationship that rearranges their own goals, priorities and assumptions this way.

Needing whatever one needs and trying to negotiate that while loving and being committed to a person with ADHD is not an easy thing to do. I mean, it's hard enough to do the stuff luvmybully says in itself--now, layer on top of that taking care of your own needs, whatever they may be, without imposing anything untoward or unreasonable upon one's partner.

I'm not trying to be negative here--just to suggest that there is very great complexity in these situations.

Luvmybully
07-21-15, 03:27 PM
I think that what luvmybully wrote is beautiful. It's smart, sensitive and honorable. And if one's highest priority is to be in a relationship with this particular partner, who happens to have ADHD, this is definitely the way to do it. But some people find themselves not sure they can or should have the kind of relationship that rearranges their own goals, priorities and assumptions this way.

Needing whatever one needs and trying to negotiate that while loving and being committed to a person with ADHD is not an easy thing to do. I mean, it's hard enough to do the stuff luvmybully says in itself--now, layer on top of that taking care of your own needs, whatever they may be, without imposing anything untoward or unreasonable upon one's partner.

I'm not trying to be negative here--just to suggest that there is very great complexity in these situations.

Yes, relationships are complex! Add one with a disability into it, and it is even more so.

However, I don't think many relationships, wether they have one with a disability like adhd in it or not, are going to survive long term if BOTH aren't fully commited to the relationship, more than their own personal needs/wants/expectations.

I am not trying to be b * tchy or critical, it is very hard on a forum to convey feeling when the only thing to go by is the written word.

Yes, my marriage is absolutely my priority. Needs and wants change as we get older, and we are constantly forced by life to evaluate and re-evaluate what exacly they are.

What I need is my husband. What I want is my husband. Everything else has proven to be secondary, or irrelevant. This was not a conscious decision. It just IS.

I need to smell him, feel him, touch him, taste him. I need to hear him and see him. Nothing else at this point matters anymore. NOT having him is simply unacceptable. I don't even have words to express how strongly I feel. My life without him is simply not acceptable. That's about it.

edit:
I am worried that this sounds just critical. I am really not trying to be!

I guess I am trying to say that it is SO HARD to have a relationship, if you DON'T feel that strongly about the other person, how could you do it?

Listening
07-21-15, 03:50 PM
Luvmybully, you said a lot of very good and thought provoking things in that post. I appreciate that very much as I will use much of that advice. I also appreciate what VeryTired is saying in response very much.

VeryTired is right on point. It is the massive change. Going from having a person who can compromise and be loving and attentive to our relationship to dealing with someone who does not compromise one fraction of an inch is a tough thing to handle. I can now do the exact same things I did in the past and get a completely opposite and irrational response. It seems like she thinks, you knew what was going on then and you played along, now you should not expect the same response. When in fact it seemed everything was genuine to me and the rug got pulled out from under my feet.

That is the perplexing thing about the disability side of things. Why can this disability be hidden for long periods of time. Other disabilities can not. If someone knows exactly how to act to get what they want, why does this disappear when the prize has been attained.

I can certainly see how being in your relationship since a very young age would make things so very different than others who met and dated later in life. I appreciate your perspective and I see I can learn a lot from what you write. As I love my wife dearly and want to love her in a way that brings out the best.

Luvmybully
07-21-15, 04:04 PM
VeryTired is right on point. It is the massive change. Going from having a person who can compromise and be loving and attentive to our relationship to dealing with someone who does not compromise one fraction of an inch is a tough thing to handle. I can now do the exact same things I did in the past and get a completely opposite and irrational response. It seems like she thinks, you knew what was going on then and you played along, now you should not expect the same response. When in fact it seemed everything was genuine to me and the rug got pulled out from under my feet.

That is the perplexing thing about the disability side of things. Why can this disability be hidden for long periods of time. Other disabilities can not. If someone knows exactly how to act to get what they want, why does this disappear when the prize has been attained.



It is not willful and deliberate!

ADHD is fickle. It is not like a person suffering from it has the ability to do certain, specific things, on a regualr basis, but more like they can do a certain AMOUNT of things, no matter what they are, on a regular basis.

Once they've reached their limit, that's it. They have no more.

Maybe they can stretch it from time to time, but again it's SUSTAINABILITY.

The longer the relationship goes on and the more they feel their adhd hindering them, the less they are able to do.

Because dealing with emotions, theirs AND their partners, IS one of the things that suck up their mental capacity.

They need to recharge and regroup more than someone that does not have adhd.

And please please do not think they know but CHOOSE not to.

ADHD is not a disability of KNOWING, it is a disability of DOING.

acdc01
07-21-15, 04:29 PM
Thanks VeryTired for your response. I understand what you were saying now and can understand how it can be a huge problem when the one you love seems to become someone else altogether.

Being ADHD, I can understand how the disability can be hidden, cause motivation is so high when you are trying to get someone interested in you and when you achieve your goal, your motivation decreases. The motivation actually decreases with everyone I think even non-ADHDers but changes in amount of motivation affect our actions way more than NTs.

I don't really think ADHD is an excuse for the drastic changes you guys are talking about though (some change yes, drastic - no). I think there are things we can do to keep the changes from being as drastic as you guys are mentioning.

If this happens to any of the non-ADHDers here, I personally think you guys have every right to be upset and should discuss (in a non-confrontation tone) the changes with your spouses, how it makes you feel, and what you hope for in the future.

I think you may have said this before VeryTired. You can't and shouldn't have to sacrifice your own needs. No one should ever sacrifice their own needs for someone else. It doesn't matter if their spouse has a disability or not. If you need something and you're not getting it, then you guys aren't compatible and no one should feel guilty for ending a relationship that doesn't work.

My only caveat to the above is that I think sometimes people have difficulties telling the difference between the path to meeting their needs and their actual needs themselves. I would hope non-ADHDers could have some flexibility in the path taken to meeting their needs but not sacrifice on their needs themselves if that makes sense.

Lunamoth
07-21-15, 05:42 PM
I've put off replying to this thread as I'm finding it brings up a lot of feelings in me that I don't want to confront. The following comments are based only on my experience.

Maybe the change is worse in ADHD partners who are not diagnosed, as there is no understanding of the underlying issue. I met a guy who made me feel like I was valued, important, special, etc etc and I ended up living with someone who abused me and made me feel unloved and invisible. Probably there were more issues going on, but after a diagnosis and medication that abusive husband no longer exists. I still feel invisible a lot of the time but now I know I am at least loved.

I think the hard thing is that the non-ADHD partner of an undiagnosed ADHDer has no idea that the intensity of the relationship will die a sudden death and you lead a lonely life filled with unexpected and unreasonable demands.

My aunt also married an undiagnosed ADHDer. She suffered chronic migraines for years from the stress of being "dumped" from a great height the day they returned from their honeymoon.

I don't mean to offend, it's just my experience.

VeryTired
07-21-15, 06:54 PM
Luvmybully--

No, you didn't sound critical, you sounded passionate and loving. Your marriage sounds like a wonderfully strong and connected one. It's great to hear about other people's positive and loving marriages--sarahsweets is someone else who posts about her marriage in such terms, and nowadays we've been hearing from those lovebirds, Bella and dvdnvwls as well ... Other people's joy and closeness and mutual support are beautiful and inspirational to behold vicariously through ADDF!

I felt 100% engaged with the person in the way you describe I feel in love with ... but it's as if he isn't around anymore, and as though I am trying to offer that commitment to the guy who showed up instead. This is often hard for both of us, and I am not always sure if it's sustainable ...

acdc01
07-21-15, 08:48 PM
I know you said this doesn't bug you anymore but there are self-closing drawer slides and door hinges (see below as example) just as an FYI.

Sorry to say but I've made an error. I can't find a "self-closing" drawer system that closes completely on it's own without the slightest push which probably defeats the purpose for many of us. Someone posted that they stapled a couple heavy duty rubber bands between the drawers and the cabinet at the back with these self-closing systems and that made it fully self-closing so you can get a system to work, just maybe not as cleanly and easily as originally hoped.

dvdnvwls
07-21-15, 10:20 PM
Perhaps it's possible to try to show a similar situation from the other point of view.

Imagine please (those reading who don't have ADHD) that you're back at the beginning of the relationship you're in now. Imagine that your new partner (with ADHD) has an extreme fascination with opera, to the extent that you are being taken to the opera very frequently, listening to opera CD's all the time at home, and watching opera DVD's nearly every one of those few evenings that you're not actually in the opera house. And imagine that, while you might not be unfriendly to it, you were never much of an opera fan.

You go every time at first, of course. You enthusiastically (or at least patiently) absorb this style of music which you're not so familiar with. You listen to the CD's that have been conveniently set on "repeat". You might even learn that a big bowl of popcorn goes just fine with that new DVD of the double-bill of Cavalleria Rusticana and I Pagliacci, if you don't happen to have any cannoli in the house. :)

But at some point, you start to think to yourself something like this: "I thought this opera phase would come to an end. I thought it was self-evident that he wouldn't and shouldn't expect me to permanently transform the way I use my time, to almost undergo a personality transplant for him. I'm not really an opera fan, and all this is starting to get to me. The amount of personal change I'm expected to go through has to be at least somewhat fair or reasonable. I can't really allow his hobby to rule my entire life."




The main point behind this, for me, is something that Luvmybully pretty much said already, and which I'll just say in a more pointed way.

There's a secret code of rules called The Non-ADHD Guide to Doing Marriage the Right Way. From the uniform way many people act, it's clear that every non-ADHD person has been given a copy, though I never see them reading it. ;)

From an ADHDer's point of view, anyone who's dedicated to this secret marriage code is in the grip of a hobby so weird and obscure and frivolous that going to the opera three nights a week seems positively pragmatic. The code is most definitely something that we've seen you doing from the beginning, but we have been waiting for the phase to pass, waiting for you to notice that we're not fans of that hobby ourselves, waiting for our turn to be noticed and appreciated for who we are rather than how well we conform to your hobby's rule book.




Love each other. Do your best to demonstrate that love. Any way of "Doing Marriage Right" that involves more than that, is a frivolous hobby that you can afford to drop - and dropping it might have major positive consequences for all of us.

Luvmybully
07-22-15, 12:13 AM
From an ADHDer's point of view, anyone who's dedicated to this secret marriage code is in the grip of a hobby so weird and obscure and frivolous that going to the opera three nights a week seems positively pragmatic. The code is most definitely something that we've seen you doing from the beginning, but we have been waiting for the phase to pass, waiting for you to notice that we're not fans of that hobby ourselves, waiting for our turn to be noticed and appreciated for who we are rather than how well we conform to your hobby's rule book.




Love each other. Do your best to demonstrate that love. Any way of "Doing Marriage Right" that involves more than that, is a frivolous hobby that you can afford to drop - and dropping it might have major positive consequences for all of us.

I see nothing at all weird about opera every day. :lol: (My poor non-opera loving husband has to put up with my opera loving self. Yes he goes with me. How could I be mad at hime for long?)

All kidding aside, THIS:

"waiting for our turn to be noticed and appreciated for who we are rather than how well we conform to your hobby's rule book."

Yes.

dvdnvwls
07-22-15, 01:13 AM
I see nothing at all weird about opera every day. :lol: (My poor non-opera loving husband has to put up with my opera loving self. Yes he goes with me. How could I be mad at hime for long?)

Contessa, perdona. ;)

sarahsweets
07-22-15, 04:10 AM
I met a guy who made me feel like I was valued, important, special, etc etc and I ended up living with someone who abused me and made me feel unloved and invisible.
For the record, adhd is never a reason to abuse anyone.

acdc01
07-22-15, 09:58 AM
Love each other. Do your best to demonstrate that love. Any way of "Doing Marriage Right" that involves more than that, is a frivolous hobby that you can afford to drop - and dropping it might have major positive consequences for all of us.

As beautiful as that sounds dvdnvwls, you know the neglect some ADHDers can put their spouses through, intentional or not.

From what I see on this thread, the non-ADHDers are not in this case misunderstanding their spouses and that's the reason for the unhappiness. It's just that some are still getting enough of their needs met from their spouses and some aren't. And we should respect both groups of people and understand that they are already treating their spouses with the greatest understanding.

VeryTired
07-22-15, 01:54 PM
acdc01--

Biggest appreciation for that last, succinct, insightful, fair-minded post! Thank you, thank you!

dvdnvwls
07-24-15, 04:52 PM
As beautiful as that sounds dvdnvwls, you know the neglect some ADHDers can put their spouses through, intentional or not.


If what I said was merely a lovely sentiment, please show me why. It was meant as a hard-nosed rejection of the (apparently) fashionable habit that some non-ADHD spouses have of maintaining (and even elevating to make-or-break status) expectations that are no longer realistic, or in some cases never were realistic

I think this is the core issue and the key question dealt with over and over on this area of the forum. I think it wouldn't be exaggerating to say that 75% of threads created by non-ADHD spouses in this section are some version of "My spouse who has ADHD is not meeting ordinary expectations - what do I do?". Two of the most common expectations that aren't being met are being emotionally well-regulated and being an effective money manager. In those particular examples certainly, and I would argue in 80-90 percent of other examples too, there is a correct and necessary first step in answering these questions and providing support to the weary and confused spouses: "First, drop those expectations - permanently. Then we can discuss effective solutions and strategies."

Certainly there is a small minority who come on here with a question like "My ADHD spouse is being abusive - what do I do?" It's sad but true that when you take the time to dig a little deeper, a substantial proportion of those situations are ones in which the ADHD spouse has been subjected to a long-standing routine of being blamed/shamed/ridiculed/rejected for not meeting expectations, and is lashing out in a desperate attempt to be recognized, and to be treated in at least a minimally fair manner. There indeed is a very small but very real minority where the ADHD spouse is irredeemably abusive for reasons more complex or more difficult than ADHD, but people are in my experience far too quick to assume they're dealing with this category; I'd say 95% of the time they're not.

dvdnvwls
07-24-15, 04:56 PM
There's a reason that "For as long as you continue to meet my needs" isn't in marriage vows.

Lunamoth
07-24-15, 06:03 PM
I think it's important to remember that this area of the forums is primarily for the support of non-ADHD spouses. Showing empathy for another's situation and attempting to relate to their viewpoint seems to be an essential component of a support forum.

People who visit this area are generally struggling in their lives and relationships, and it can be a tremendous relief to find others can relate to their experience and offer constructive advice on coping with it.

Spouses who visit these forums are the good ones. We are working tirelessly to improve our situations and understand this unexpected component that has complicated our lives.

We may not have ADHD, but that does not mean we are without our own struggles. We are generally bone tired. It does not mean our spouses are misunderstood angels. We deserve to be loved and respected. ADHD is not an excuse to behave poorly, but sadly a lot of us have been on the receiving end of very poor behaviour.

It is NOT our job to manage our spouses symptoms. We can help and understand, but ultimately it is the one with ADHD who must take responsibility for their actions. That's what this forum is for. To teach us how we can improve our relationships, where the boundaries lie, to show us there is hope, and to remind us that we are not alone.

Dvd, your post sounds dismissive of our struggles and makes me feel invalidated. It makes me feel like I do not work hard enough. It makes me feel angry because I know that's not true. A lot of people read these forums and never post. Let what they read be supportive, constructive, and show them their feelings and experiences are real and valid.

Luvmybully
07-24-15, 06:27 PM
If what I said was merely a lovely sentiment, please show me why. It was meant as a hard-nosed rejection of the (apparently) fashionable habit that some non-ADHD spouses have of maintaining (and even elevating to make-or-break status) expectations that are no longer realistic, or in some cases never were realistic

I think this is the core issue and the key question dealt with over and over on this area of the forum. I think it wouldn't be exaggerating to say that 75% of threads created by non-ADHD spouses in this section are some version of "My spouse who has ADHD is not meeting ordinary expectations - what do I do?". Two of the most common expectations that aren't being met are being emotionally well-regulated and being an effective money manager. In those particular examples certainly, and I would argue in 80-90 percent of other examples too, there is a correct and necessary first step in answering these questions and providing support to the weary and confused spouses: "First, drop those expectations - permanently. Then we can discuss effective solutions and strategies."



I so completely agree with you on these points!

Luvmybully
07-24-15, 06:37 PM
I think it's important to remember that this area of the forums is primarily for the support of non-ADHD spouses. Showing empathy for another's situation and attempting to relate to their viewpoint seems to be an essential component of a support forum.

People who visit this area are generally struggling in their lives and relationships, and it can be a tremendous relief to find others can relate to their experience and offer constructive advice on coping with it.

Spouses who visit these forums are the good ones. We are working tirelessly to improve our situations and understand this unexpected component that has complicated our lives.

We may not have ADHD, but that does not mean we are without our own struggles. We are generally bone tired. It does not mean our spouses are misunderstood angels. We deserve to be loved and respected. ADHD is not an excuse to behave poorly, but sadly a lot of us have been on the receiving end of very poor behaviour.

It is NOT our job to manage our spouses symptoms. We can help and understand, but ultimately it is the one with ADHD who must take responsibility for their actions. That's what this forum is for. To teach us how we can improve our relationships, where the boundaries lie, to show us there is hope, and to remind us that we are not alone.

Dvd, your post sounds dismissive of our struggles and makes me feel invalidated. It makes me feel like I do not work hard enough. It makes me feel angry because I know that's not true. A lot of people read these forums and never post. Let what they read be supportive, constructive, and show them their feelings and experiences are real and valid.

There is a difference between showing empathy and relating to someone else's experience, and staying silent about misconceptions.

No, it is not your job to manage your spouse's adhd symptoms, and it's not THEIR job to make sure you never have to deal with their adhd symptoms. Because they CAN NOT make it go away.

Yes this forum is a support forum, a place to come for EFFECTIVE coping strategies.

But how many non-adhd partners copme here and INSIST! that they will not change their expectations, their views. So many ONLY want to complain, and reject suggestions from those that have to deal with adhd in their lives, because it is not what they want to hear.

DVD's post is not dismissive of anyones stuggles. AT ALL. It is VERY realistic and so to the point: keeping the SAME expectations with an adhd spouse, even though they can't live up to it, it never going to achieve a long term successful relationship.

Lunamoth
07-24-15, 07:35 PM
it's not THEIR job to make sure you never have to deal with their adhd symptoms. Because they CAN NOT make it go away.

I agree.

But how many non-adhd partners copme here and INSIST! that they will not change their expectations, their views. So many ONLY want to complain, and reject suggestions from those that have to deal with adhd in their lives, because it is not what they want to hear.

That is their choice, maybe they just need to vent. That's ok. They are under no obligation to act on the advice given to them. Someone else out there in the world might find that advice useful and put it into action, so the effort is certainly not wasted.

DVD's post is not dismissive of anyones stuggles.

I personally found it dismissive.

sarahsweets
07-25-15, 04:33 AM
We may not have ADHD, but that does not mean we are without our own struggles. We are generally bone tired. It does not mean our spouses are misunderstood angels. We deserve to be loved and respected. ADHD is not an excuse to behave poorly, but sadly a lot of us have been on the receiving end of very poor behaviour.
To play devils advocate.... arent we bone tired of failing to live up to expectations? I get bristled anytime someone uses the word excuse. It implies that we have a choice in certain matters, and that our excuse is adhd. ADHD is not an excuse for abuse, no one will argue that. But it is an explanation for a lot of the issues mentioned.

It is NOT our job to manage our spouses symptoms. We can help and understand, but ultimately it is the one with ADHD who must take responsibility for their actions.
By saying this, it implies that we lack a sense of responsibility when it come to our interactions with spouses. Its not a lack of responsibility, very often its a lack of awareness.

BellaVita
07-25-15, 05:07 AM
If what I said was merely a lovely sentiment, please show me why. It was meant as a hard-nosed rejection of the (apparently) fashionable habit that some non-ADHD spouses have of maintaining (and even elevating to make-or-break status) expectations that are no longer realistic, or in some cases never were realistic

I think this is the core issue and the key question dealt with over and over on this area of the forum. I think it wouldn't be exaggerating to say that 75% of threads created by non-ADHD spouses in this section are some version of "My spouse who has ADHD is not meeting ordinary expectations - what do I do?". Two of the most common expectations that aren't being met are being emotionally well-regulated and being an effective money manager. In those particular examples certainly, and I would argue in 80-90 percent of other examples too, there is a correct and necessary first step in answering these questions and providing support to the weary and confused spouses: "First, drop those expectations - permanently. Then we can discuss effective solutions and strategies."

Certainly there is a small minority who come on here with a question like "My ADHD spouse is being abusive - what do I do?" It's sad but true that when you take the time to dig a little deeper, a substantial proportion of those situations are ones in which the ADHD spouse has been subjected to a long-standing routine of being blamed/shamed/ridiculed/rejected for not meeting expectations, and is lashing out in a desperate attempt to be recognized, and to be treated in at least a minimally fair manner. There indeed is a very small but very real minority where the ADHD spouse is irredeemably abusive for reasons more complex or more difficult than ADHD, but people are in my experience far too quick to assume they're dealing with this category; I'd say 95% of the time they're not.

Very well said. :goodpost:

dvdnvwls
07-25-15, 05:32 AM
I personally found it dismissive.

Frankly, anyone who finds that particular post of mine dismissive is someone who I would indeed prefer to exclude from serious discussion of ADHD in relationships, because such a person is wilfully ignoring essential information. I don't intend this as any kind of directive or command - I have no authority and I don't want authority. But I really have had my fill of non-ADHDers' demands for one-way respect. Respect on a discussion forum has to be two-way for it to be meaningful.

BellaVita
07-25-15, 05:41 AM
I think it's important to remember that this area of the forums is primarily for the support of non-ADHD spouses.

Support, yes of course. Everyone deserves support in these situations - but this doesn't mean we won't disagree with the methods the non-ADHD'ers are using.

Showing empathy for another's situation and attempting to relate to their viewpoint seems to be an essential component of a support forum.

Empathy is needed, I agree. I think, many times ADHD'ers come to show the non-ADHD'ers what it's like for us too, that way empathy can be flowing from both parties.

People who visit this area are generally struggling in their lives and relationships, and it can be a tremendous relief to find others can relate to their experience and offer constructive advice on coping with it.

I think some of the best, most constructive, most REAL advice is being found in this thread.

Spouses who visit these forums are the good ones. We are working tirelessly to improve our situations and understand this unexpected component that has complicated our lives.

It is clear that some non-ADHD spouses are struggling, so I think it's important that you all do visit these forums and seek advice. I also think ADHD'ers struggle when they discover the unexpected and unattainable ideals NT partners place on them.

We may not have ADHD, but that does not mean we are without our own struggles. We are generally bone tired. It does not mean our spouses are misunderstood angels. We deserve to be loved and respected. ADHD is not an excuse to behave poorly, but sadly a lot of us have been on the receiving end of very poor behaviour.

The same can be said about ADHD'ers being on the receiving end of poor behavior by non-ADHD partners.

It doesn't help to call it an "excuse" however - first of all I never have witnessed an ADHD'er use ADHD as an excuse - and I'm not entirely sure if it's possible. (When speaking of non-abusive situations. If one is getting abused, that has NOTHING to do with ADHD)

Second, it's an explanation for their behavior.

There is a place and time for an ADHD'er who is struggling to say "I'm really struggling with x and it's due to my ADHD."

Often, I think non-ADHD partners do not realize that 99% of the time something is going "wrong" - it is due to the very disorder that one doesn't want the sufferer to use as an "excuse."

It is NOT our job to manage our spouses symptoms. We can help and understand, but ultimately it is the one with ADHD who must take responsibility for their actions. That's what this forum is for. To teach us how we can improve our relationships, where the boundaries lie, to show us there is hope, and to remind us that we are not alone.

I actually somewhat disagree with that. You are married to an ADHD'er, you're supposed to work as a team.

They have a very serious disorder - and "taking responsibility for their actions" is EXACTLY what they struggle with. It's a big part of the disorder, and some responsibility needs to be taken by the non-ADHD spouse.

Dvd, your post sounds dismissive of our struggles and makes me feel invalidated. It makes me feel like I do not work hard enough. It makes me feel angry because I know that's not true. A lot of people read these forums and never post. Let what they read be supportive, constructive, and show them their feelings and experiences are real and valid.

dvdnvwls post was helpful and exactly the type of thing that should be on these forums.

dvdnvwls
07-25-15, 05:50 AM
Dvd, your post sounds dismissive of our struggles and makes me feel invalidated. It makes me feel like I do not work hard enough. It makes me feel angry because I know that's not true. A lot of people read these forums and never post. Let what they read be supportive, constructive, and show them their feelings and experiences are real and valid.

Your feelings are valid. That doesn't make your arguments valid.

I don't expect or want you to work harder - I do hope that you will see fit to actually modify your expectations based on the reality of your situation. That is simply a skill for getting by in the world, not more work.

amberwillow
07-25-15, 06:20 AM
I don't know how many of you know this of my own story, but much like the I OP I loved my first husband very deeply and found some of his (ADHD) behaviours hard to live with.

He would be happy to go out for a meal, but before anyone else had finished he'd be moving our car closer to the main entrance so that we could make a quick get-away. There was no such thing as a beverage after the meal, or friendly conversation.

He had two speeds, flat out or asleep.

He loved everything new and shiny... As soon as the shine wore off, objects ceased to exist (or be cared for).

He escaped from talking about/dealing with any issues that came up by literally climbing over the back fence and/or going for long drives... Burning up petrol we were struggling to pay for.

He got to be the 'fun' parent, while I got to be the 'serious' parent, the wet blanket, the grumpy, frustrated one.

Just a few examples of a life I'm glad I walked away from. It was drama-filled and had a whole deck of life's card stacked against it.

I was unaware of the cause of my own difficulties. I really believed I WAS the Non-ADHD partner. We were stuck in a cycle of domestic abuse and whizzing around the drama-triangle so fast it would make your head spin.

Years, and a whole lot of knowledge later I'm still glad I left. It was not a mater of fault, just facts. There were so many things that we didn't know about ADHD and it's effect on both of us. The interaction was pretty toxic overall.

I married again, 14yrs ago, to a great friend of mine. We were both undiagnosed at the time. He is more inattentive than me, his pace is quieter, his style more reflective. We are a much better match for eachother.

But I still feel like the non-adhd partner. I am more functional in the world than him in many ways. The pressure of that causes me to crash sometimes, but that's when he comes into his own, for he is the best carer and sweet-heart. He props me up so that I can pull it all together again. He's always doing little things to show he is thinking of me, cups of tea, making sure I eat, reminding me of things that are important to me, listening...

We have worked and worked to stay close. I adore him and live with the fact that our marriage is VERY different from most people's. But it meets our needs and we have eachother. That is what matters most to me!

I got out of an unsuited marriage. I would have been crazy to stay. My expectations were out of touch with the facts. Now I am well acquainted with the facts, I'm staying because I know this marriage is worth doing things differently for. I feel loved and seen and adored, because we have both been brave enough to face uncomfortable truths.

It's complicated, and oh so rewarding to find a way that works.

acdc01
07-25-15, 08:34 AM
There have been a number of discussions about this phenomenon here, and I find that it's something that non-ADHD partners often experience as very distressing, whereas many of the people posting here who have ADHD seem to minimize it, or suggest that it happens to everyone. --

People, some of the comments here have minimizing and dismissive and making this subforum terribly unfriendly? This is a non-adhd support group and you're babbling on and on about how you just need to understand your spouses more and lower expectations right after multiple non-adhders have told you that this is the very action that makes them feel like their feelings are not being validated?

And these non-adhders that say this on this thread, they aren't people that are ill-informed and don't do anything but complain about their spouses. Look at their histories and you know nearly all these people have been on this board for years trying their absolute best to understand and be as supportive as possible.

Just imagine what it would be like if their ADHD spouses said the same things to them that you are after years of neglect that doesn't abate and years of the non-ADHD spouse doing everything they can to accommodate and understand their ADHD partners "you just need to understand me and lower expectations". That the problem isn't the neglect but that the non-ADHD partner just needs to understand them more?

The misunderstanding on this particular thread is not by the non-ADHDers. It's from the ADHDers not acknowledging how ADHD affects the non-ADHDer partners too.

This is a non-ADHD support subforum. We should be supporting them, not making this subforum a hostile environment for them.

amberwillow
07-25-15, 09:01 AM
I think posting may be veering off the OP's discussion topic. Whether the Non-ADHD forum is currently a supportive environment might perhaps be the topic for a different thread?

I hope that pointing out I've stood in shoes similar to the OP's is not construed as such.

Little Missy
07-25-15, 09:05 AM
This is a support forum for non-ADD partners, spouses, and significant others offering feedback from both the ADD and non-ADD perspectives.

Every one has a different perspective.

acdc01
07-25-15, 09:54 AM
This is a support forum for non-ADD partners, spouses, and significant others offering feedback from both the ADD and non-ADD perspectives.

Every one has a different perspective.

Yes, I can't stop anyone from posting whatever you want but you are guys are trying to help the non-ADHDers here yes? Just look at the non-ADHD posters on this thread that you are preaching to. It does not help them to be told that they are just misunderstanding their spouses when they've already done so much to understand. And it does not help the newbie ADHDer who sees other ADHDers only pointing out how the non-ADHDers need to adjust to the ADHDers neglect.

I'm not telling you guys not do anything. I'm just hoping you'll step back and look at this from a non-biased perspective and see all the posters you are hurting (and have told you already that your actions are hurting them).

Okay, last post on this but considering this is a repeat problem on this subforum, I just had to say something.

BellaVita
07-25-15, 10:08 AM
Yes, I can't stop anyone from posting whatever you want but you are guys are trying to help the non-ADHDers here yes? Just look at the non-ADHD posters on this thread that you are preaching to. It does not help them to be told that they are just misunderstanding their spouses when they've already done so much to understand.

It certainly can help to point out repeated misunderstandings - and I think that's really all the ADHD'ers on this thread are trying to do.

And it does not help the newbie ADHDer who sees other ADHDers only pointing out how the non-ADHDers need to adjust to the ADHDers neglect.

Why not? Maybe they are being treated unfairly by non-ADHD'ers in their life, being forced to conform and fit the NT ideals.

Maybe they never knew they were being treated poorly by an NT in their life, and it can help them to see it said (and discussed in detail) by other people that it's not okay to be forced to abide by strict and unattainable ideals that could never possibly be met.

I'm not telling you guys not do anything. I'm just hoping you'll step back and look at this from a non-biased perspective and see all the posters you are hurting (and have told you already that your actions are hurting them).

We're all biased due to the fact we either have ADHD or don't, that won't change. But we can attempt to change our views as necessary.

I also hope the non-ADHD'ers will see that they are not the only ones who are hurting.

daveddd
07-25-15, 10:40 AM
adhd is a heterogeneous disorder that now covers a wide array of behaviors, so its tough to be helpful here

I've learned to hand all my earning to my wife , it was just the smart thing to do

I've tried to remember to close drawers and turn off lights, i can sometimes, sometimes i can't

"As for the general weirdness thing. I am constantly making excuses for his strange behavior when we go out to any event. He gets irritable and grumpy, complains about having to go wherever. When we get there he is a bit distant, and gets up and is ready to leave before anyone else is ready. My family thinks this is weird and tell me so, as well as our friends we go out with. It can even be events we paid money to attend. He wants to be upstairs in his office doing whatever it is he does from sunup till dinnertime. He thinks he needs to be doing something else he deems is more important. He is overall good to me and they all appreciate that about him, but some of them think he is getting early Alzheimers. I try to explain it is the ADD. My girlfriends look at him like he is bossy and controlling with me and my family thinks he doesn't like them and is selfish. Most times after he gets into the evening he relaxes and enjoys himself, but he is still ready to leave before anyone else, not considering if I am ready to leave or not. Then he complains about the time being wasted. I hate ADD."

i relate to this especially , i can have good intentions , but it just doesn't work out, you described it well

now the hard part, its easy and quite understandable to say "i hate add" but at this point , with the pervasiveness that you described , I'm not sure there is very much of a line between him and the ADD

these behavioral characteristics are likely here to stay , so the only thing i can really say is , are you going to be happy living like this forever ?

BellaVita
07-25-15, 10:54 AM
now the hard part, its easy and quite understandable to say "i hate add" but at this point , with the pervasiveness that you described , I'm not sure there is very much of a line between him and the ADD

these behavioral characteristics are likely here to stay , so the only thing i can really say is , are you going to be happy living like this forever ?

:goodpost: I thought similar things when I read the OP, but didn't know how to put it in words.

sarahsweets
07-25-15, 10:59 AM
I dont think its unsupportive to offer perspective. Who gets to decide what constitutes support? If you mean we should offer kum-ba-yahs and hugs, then we wouldnt be being honest. We offer a point of view as we see it.

daveddd
07-25-15, 11:25 AM
one thing that has helped my wife with the social weirdness, we simply go separate

that way i make the effort, but when i reach my threshold i can leave, and she can stay with friends

BellaVita
07-25-15, 11:28 AM
Another tip: drop the wanting to change their social weirdness altogether and just love and accept them for who they are.

Luvmybully
07-25-15, 12:03 PM
People, some of the comments here have minimizing and dismissive and making this subforum terribly unfriendly? This is a non-adhd support group and you're babbling on and on about how you just need to understand your spouses more and lower expectations right after multiple non-adhders have told you that this is the very action that makes them feel like their feelings are not being validated?

And these non-adhders that say this on this thread, they aren't people that are ill-informed and don't do anything but complain about their spouses. Look at their histories and you know nearly all these people have been on this board for years trying their absolute best to understand and be as supportive as possible.

Just imagine what it would be like if their ADHD spouses said the same things to them that you are after years of neglect that doesn't abate and years of the non-ADHD spouse doing everything they can to accommodate and understand their ADHD partners "you just need to understand me and lower expectations". That the problem isn't the neglect but that the non-ADHD partner just needs to understand them more?

The misunderstanding on this particular thread is not by the non-ADHDers. It's from the ADHDers not acknowledging how ADHD affects the non-ADHDer partners too.

This is a non-ADHD support subforum. We should be supporting them, not making this subforum a hostile environment for them.

This post is not about this particular forum, it is about having a partner with a disability.

Altering expectations is NOT a synonym for lowering them.

Realistic is crucial. Unrealistic will never happen.

Disagreeing with someone OR seeing it from another perspective is NOT minimizing or dismissing! That makes no sense.

There is a LOT of misunderstanding on this thread, BY non-adhder's atributing their partners actions to WILLFUL choice. Expecting their adhd partners to alter their adhd symptoms to suit them. Saying the non-adhd partner has been through YEARS of accommodation only to suffer from neglect, just PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that NO they actually DO NOT understand the very root of the probolem and NO! they are NOT effectively accomodating their adhd partners! When it is pointed out to them that THEY are part of the problem, they say that's not supportive? That's dismissive? WHAT exactly is it that you want to hear, if pointing out the obvious that your current and past methods are clearly not working?

They expect emotional support from one that suffers from emotional regulation problems. AND they want that support in their OWN way. AND they aren't willing to alter their expectation OR be flexible on how they receive it.

They speak fo financial responsibilty from someone that clearly has no ability to make it happen.

The OP DID alter her expectations, she DID take over the finances.

There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about how the adhd partner has to.....CHANGE.

When it is brought up that this is hurtful, harmful, and causes just the opposite to happen nearly EVERY TIME, it is treated as dismissive? How so? HOW is it invalidating to ANYONES feelings to be told as clearly and precisely as possible that your actions are causing your partner the same emotional distress you are accusing them of?

People with a disability NEED stability and safety in order to be comfortable enough to work on self help. It does not matter WHAT the particular symptoms are. There MUST be a firm, solid base to stand on.

It is emotionally traumatizing to be told on a regular ongoing basis that you must change. No one will be ABLE to be healthy in this environment. An unhealthy person will not be able to be a strong partner.

This is for BOTH partners! Why is this seen as dismissive? Or non supportive?

BOTH need that stability! BOTH need safety! And when one has a disability and one does not, the one without is the ONLY one that has the MEANS and the ABILITY to take the first step. To be the rock. To lay the foundation. Then BOTH can work from that base.

People come here for help and support because what they are doing is not working. Support is to help identify the problem. You can not work on an effective solution until the actual problem is properly identified.

I still do not see how it is non-supportive, hostile, or dismissive to say the problem is unrealistic expectations and misunderstanding of the adhd partner's motivations and abilities? If the non-adhd partner TRULY understood AND had realistic expectations, they would not be here looking for answers.

Luvmybully
07-25-15, 12:32 PM
Yes, I can't stop anyone from posting whatever you want but you are guys are trying to help the non-ADHDers here yes? Just look at the non-ADHD posters on this thread that you are preaching to. It does not help them to be told that they are just misunderstanding their spouses when they've already done so much to understand.

They do NOT understand. If they did, they would not be here so frustrated. If it is not helpful to tell them their "understanding" is incorrect, what exacly would be helpful? How is it possible to work on a problem if you don't even understand correctly what the problem is?


And it does not help the newbie ADHDer who sees other ADHDers only pointing out how the non-ADHDers need to adjust to the ADHDers neglect.

Why? Why is not helpful to have other people that suffer as you do say that it is OK to be YOU and not have to feel like you MUST change in order to have someone love you?

I'm not telling you guys not do anything. I'm just hoping you'll step back and look at this from a non-biased perspective and see all the posters you are hurting (and have told you already that your actions are hurting them).


You have a very biased perspective.

The adhd posters here are also hurt, on a very regular basis, by being constantly told that their perspective is not valid. They bare their soul and TRY to explain whats' it's like to be them, and are told it's dismissive and non-supportive.

They are TRYING to explain that the reason your relationship is struggling is because of a fundamental misunderstanding, only to be brushed aside and told that no, that's wrong? There is no misunderstanding?

Yes, there is. There really is. And it's not genuine support to pretend or disregard that huge, glaring, obvious obstacle.

midnightstar
07-25-15, 03:42 PM
:goodpost: luvmybully

Weird is good :grouphug:

Little Missy
07-25-15, 06:45 PM
All I am able to do is the best that I can every day, minute by minute, or by the hour. Whatever works.

amberwillow
07-25-15, 07:20 PM
:umm1:An example from my own life of these unhelpful expectations.

Not long after we started living together as a couple, my (now husband) and I were talking and he revealed to me that he had no dreams for his life. He, quite frankly didn't expect to live past thirty... I was shocked, surprised and pretty shaken by that.

:confused: I had never come across anyone who (somewhere tucked away in their heart) didn't have a dream.

I spent weeks ferreting around in our conversations, searching for repressed clues, fragments of a life goal... There were not any.

My husband assured me that all he wanted was for us to be together, for me to be fulfilled. I didn't believe him for a long time. The thought of someone without a dream made me feel so sad. It was something I had been programmed to believe was standard. But, it was my belief, not his.

I thought, if I helped him heal, it would sprout up on its own, like a seed finally finding light. I set about to try, in so many ways to fix him. My friends here can attest to my frustations in those years. Then gradually it changed...

I think it really helped to know our relationship was dysfunctional. I was sitting in the role of his parent, his coach, his therapist and it was stopping us from enjoying our relationship. No-one won. There was resentment, avoidance and disapointment.

I slowly stepped back from those roles I didn't like. We talked about how to change that together. He found a therapist and I found my own. I stopped prompting his life choices and altered the way we spent time together, allowing plenty of time for me to do 'my' things with my friends or alone. He is happy. I am content.

He does not have a DREAM.

:) But I have plenty for myself and my supportive, intelligent, quirky, caring man is happy for me to persue them. He's right by my side, cheering.

Everybody WINS!!

ToneTone
07-31-15, 11:48 PM
Talk about no easy answers!

I confess: I do NOT find it helpful to tell partners of ADHDers to adjust their expectations—without being very specific and prescriptive about how they are to do so.

People adjust expectations in relationships all the time. They adjust expectations by stopping physical intimacy, by emotionally withdrawing, by seething, by giving up on their partners, by having affairs or even by hating the person they are with. The challenge, it seems to me, is how to adjust expectations while sustaining intimacy and genuine affection for your partner.

And as far as expectations go, perhaps the expectations advice can apply as well to ADHDers. Maybe it’s unreasonable for ADHDers to expect our partners to be pleased with us if we aren't pulling 50 percent of the workload--financial, emotional, physical--that a married couple has to complete.

But I don't see how this gets us anywhere.

What I do know is this: relationships require more than willpower. Sure, willpower and commitment are important and fundamental. But as John Gottman, the famous marriage counselor says, successful marriages require regular and ongoing deposits of generosity, love, affection and forgiveness. Gottman has studied thousands of couples over decades, keeping track of them, analyzing their communication style, their conflict style. And Gottman has found that the positive interactions between the happily married couples dwarf the number of negative interactions. Telling people to adjust expectations sounds like asking willpower to carry the full load. It can't. Willpower can get you through a tough period yes. But it is only a short-term solution at best and it often carries a debt that eventually comes due.

Married people, if the relationship is to stay vibrant, need their partners to seduce them, adore them, respect them, love them, thank them, impress them, look good for them, make them laugh and on and on ... These ongoing, positive actions are as important to sustaining the bond as iron-fisted commitment. It does not matter if one or both partners have ADHD or heart disease or Alzheimer's or cancer. These ongoing deposits are like water to a relationship. It's not so shocking then that partners who become caretakers of ill spouses suffer high rates of depression. These people are getting no deposits.

VeryTired (hey VT!--love your posts as always) throws a wrench in my next point. I think one thing partners of ADHDers can do to give themselves some room to think is to take full responsibility for having chosen the person they are with. VeryTired throws a wrench in this point because she thinks ADHDers seem to withdraw more and more over time. I can believe that. But my experience is that most of the behaviors we object to in partners after marriage were present before we chose them.

It helped me a lot to accept that I freely and aggressively chose to marry my ex who had borderline personality disorder. Why did that help? Because it allowed me to stop seeing that tumultuous, painful marriage as "her fault." Instead, I could step back and say, "OK, choosing to marry my ex shows my level of maturity and awareness at the time. Now I'm more mature, so the relationship is going to have to change to accommodate my growth."

Conversely the ADHDer who is tired of being put down by their partner, who thinks their partner has unfair and unreasonable expectations ... well you created this relationship as well. Equally so! Want a change? Great. But understand that you co-created the situation you are in now.

Finally, I believe there are worse things than divorce. I don't mean to be casual. There certainly can be a gain in staying in a relationship and pushing through those hard times, even through some miserably prolonged hard times ... But only up to a point. And only the individual can know what that point is.

Tone

dvdnvwls
08-01-15, 12:20 AM
People, some of the comments here have minimizing and dismissive and making this subforum terribly unfriendly? This is a non-adhd support group and you're babbling on and on about how you just need to understand your spouses more and lower expectations right after multiple non-adhders have told you that this is the very action that makes them feel like their feelings are not being validated?

And these non-adhders that say this on this thread, they aren't people that are ill-informed and don't do anything but complain about their spouses. Look at their histories and you know nearly all these people have been on this board for years trying their absolute best to understand and be as supportive as possible.

Just imagine what it would be like if their ADHD spouses said the same things to them that you are after years of neglect that doesn't abate and years of the non-ADHD spouse doing everything they can to accommodate and understand their ADHD partners "you just need to understand me and lower expectations". That the problem isn't the neglect but that the non-ADHD partner just needs to understand them more?

The misunderstanding on this particular thread is not by the non-ADHDers. It's from the ADHDers not acknowledging how ADHD affects the non-ADHDer partners too.

This is a non-ADHD support subforum. We should be supporting them, not making this subforum a hostile environment for them.

Any opportunity I find to minimize and dismiss disrespect and unfairness, I am going to take that opportunity to its fullest extent. As far as I can tell, I have not misunderstood anyone's words or intentions, and as far as I can tell, I have not hurt anyone by calling out some pretty nasty treatment of one spouse by another.

VeryTired
08-02-15, 10:57 AM
Tone--

This is very thoughtful, very nuanced, very insightful. There is a lot to think about in what you said. I agree with you about divorce, about our knowing our own responsibility for choosing our partnerships, and absolutely about the necessity of bringing constant "deposits" of good things to a relationship. It's all true and you've said it all very well.

As for the end-of-new-relationship-hyperfocus thing, well it doesn't happen in all couples where one partner has ADHD and the other doesn't. So it's not a given. But it really does happen often enough that we can consider it to be an actual thing--and it really complicates relationships when it does happen. If a non-ADHD person consciously chooses a relationship with someone who is exceptionally present, attentive, understanding, interested--and then quite suddenly finds that person to behave very differently when the newness wears off and the hyperfocus ends, it's confusing and disturbing. And if the person who changes so dramatically doesn't seem to acknowledge that any change occurred, it's scary and upsetting.

It makes perfect sense that here in this forum that a lot of attention is paid to what partners with ADHD need from their partners who do not have ADHD. And of course it's true that many people with ADHD have had very painful experiences with unaccepting non-ADHD partners. From the point of view of non-ADHD partners, however, I think a more urgent issue may be whether or not the ADHD partner accepts accountability for the results of his or her symptoms. When that happens, I think there's plenty of room for everyone in the relationship to be fine. But when the partner with ADHD resists recognition of the wider effects of his or her ADHD, however, it's likely to result in the non-ADHD partner being stressed to an unsustainable degree.

Some of the people whom I admire most here are those who have the greatest, most honest awareness of how their ADHD can affect others in their lives. I'm absolutely thinking of you in this regard, Tone--and Stevuke is another, also Fuzzy. Well, lots of people--I am inspired by so many who post here about these things. There isn't room to name everyone. You know who you are!

ADHD can really complicate relationships, but one of the worst outcomes is when it ends up as a confrontation between a non-ADHD partner and someone else's ADHD. The relationship has to be between the two people, who together work out good ways to deal with any issues, challenges, peculiarities, or disabilities both bring with them to that relationship.

I'm pretty clear that what I just said is true and important--and I have the feeling many of you know this far better than I do--but of course it's much, much easier said than done ...

ToneTone
08-02-15, 03:56 PM
VeryTired,

My guess would be that ADHDers who show intense interest and presence when they first meet someone are operating on a temporary high. I can function at a high level for a period of time. And yes, it's probably the initial attraction to a woman that sparks this. But eventually I revert back to the mean. I do wonder, however, if there is a way we can tap into this "inspiration" for longer term higher functioning. I wonder.

On the other hand, I suspect that these ADHDers who seem so attentive at the start are probably neglecting other areas of their lives. I've done that as well. It's a form of compartmentalization: kick butt in one area of life while the other areas go to hell. I'll admit as well that during these times, I typically hide the "falling apart" areas, from myself and definitely from any partner.

Studying stories is one of my interests, and one "rule" of creating powerful and compelling stories is that audiences do NOT automatically sympathize with a victim or someone with a devastating condition. What makes the audience connect with someone who is victimized by a crime, by an injustice or by a condition is:

a. The story shows the energy, and action and goodness of the victim--ideally before the injustice occurs.

b. The story shows the character struggling valiantly against the condition--struggling for a treatment at the front-end and struggling to maintain a good attitude if the limits of treatment are reached.

c. The story shows the character taking kind or generous action or courageous action even after the victimization/onset of the condition.

d. The story shows the character coming to believe in themselves and value themselves--honestly so. Audiences are extremely uncomfortable with any trace of self-loathing.

With those elements in place, the audience is likely to admire the character, root fiercely for them and forgive them for their flaws and missteps.

I think some of the same logic applies to relationships. Partners are, for better or worse, not all that different than story audiences. It is a supreme irony, of course, but ADHDers have got to value ourselves and see ourselves as contributors and build on that. Self-loathing is not the way to go. Asking for or expecting sympathy is not the way to go.

But if we can struggle against our condition, get the best possible treatment based on our resources ... and if we can remember that we do have strengths--all humans do--and if we can use these strengths to do good things for our partners, we will get their sympathy and respect. To use the storytelling term, we will have "earned" the respect of our partners ... and of course we will have also earned our own self-respect and esteem. And if our partner does not respond, we can and should be sure and proud that we have done our best. That's all we can do.

Tone

kilted_scotsman
08-02-15, 04:43 PM
My view is that for ADDers to have healthy relationships we need to have already begun the journey towards understanding ourselves before the relationship begins. The formal diagnosis is not required..... just enough self awareness to choose the right partner.... and understand ourselves enough to own our own stuff..... and be with someone who is willing to own theirs.

This is rare enough in the NT world..... but in that world it's easier for partners to fall back on cultural stereotypes..... which help them find solid ground to build on..... when ADHD enters the mix, that ground isn't there.

This means opening a window and throwing all stereotypes and gender roles out and letting vulnerability and "not knowing" in....... which is REALLY difficult.... for ADDer or NT alike.

dvdnvwls
08-02-15, 06:23 PM
This means opening a window and throwing all stereotypes and gender roles out and letting vulnerability and "not knowing" in....... which is REALLY difficult.... for ADDer or NT alike.

I think what often happens is that people hear this good advice and proceed to throw out a few "surface details", while insisting on keeping their "good core knowledge" intact.

Especially for those without ADHD and without other disorders, but also to a lesser extent for those who do have them: What you must throw away is your core knowledge of what makes a human being. Just jettisoning a few ideas here and there won't cut it.

amberwillow
08-02-15, 08:16 PM
Are members here familiar with the marriage research by Drs John and Julie Gottman?

I read a few of their pieces and it clearly explained to me why, although my husband and I have gone through some really challenging times, we still meet each others needs.

The whole concept of 'bids' and couples responses - facinates me.

ToneTone
08-03-15, 02:20 AM
Kilted and DVD,

It's a paradox: we can REALLY share the truth about ourselves ... only if WE have made peace with that truth. I can honestly say that until I was diagnosed with ADHD, my entire personality was built on minimizing the ways I struggled to cope. Because the only explanation in the culture for my deficits was "incompetence" "lack of focus" "laziness" "confusion" ... and none of that was good ... So I tried to distance myself from these labels by minimizing all the ways I really didn't function well.

For me the diagnosis has helped me accept a lot about myself ... now I was single when I was diagnosed ... I can easily see where getting diagnosed in the middle of a marriage would present its own challenges.

This discussion about the need to be really honest with a partner reminds of a great TED talk by a British researcher and mathematician Hannah Fry, who has studied online dating. Fry says, speaking in general, not about ADHDers, that online daters should highlight their quirks, really emphasize the stuff that typically they would want to hide. The reason? The people who don't like your quirks are going to dislike you anyway ... They'll notice them soon enough ... so you're wasting time trying to win them over ... and the people who LIKE your quirks can see you and respond to you because you are being open.

Taking the Hannah Fry logic, our goal should be to focus on attracting people who are OK with our peculiar combination of strengths and deficits. Ideally this is best done before marriage rather than afterwards. The thorny issue people on this forum are dealing with is how to sustain and revive a marriage in which the partners did not understand ADHD and its impact at the start of things.

Amber, I mentioned John Gottman in an earlier post. I basically used different wording to describe some of his findings .... that partners in happy marriages respond quite well and generously to requests or apologies offered by the other.

I think Gottman's research is great.

Hannah Fry's TED talk about highlighting quirks and stuff we'd like to hide is here:
http://www.ted.com/talks/hannah_fry_the_mathematics_of_love

Tone

stef
08-03-15, 03:41 AM
I've just been skimming this but mzybr sometimes it could be that the ADHD person is in a kind of "imposter syndrome" mentality and could feel like that they have to "keep up" being the exciting person their partner saw in the beginning (which is actually the ADHD person's true self) but then the rest of the ADHD creeps in too (forgetting stuff, looking unreliable or uncaring...) and then somehow everything becomes difficult.

VeryTired
08-03-15, 01:26 PM
Hi, Tone and Stef--

I find what you are both saying very interesting. Stef, I think my partner definitely has been experiencing the sort of thing you described. Once you said it, it seems clear to me--but somehow that never made sense to me before.

Tone, for sure my partner was neglecting everything else in his life (unbeknownst to me!) when we first met. He used to be all about the compartmentalization and hiding of whatever was falling apart that you mentioned. Lots of big problems resulted from this, but things are much better now in regard to this.

I think what you said about stories and the characters we root for and identify with is so powerful. Your whole post really resonates with me--what you say is what I want to believe is true, and it seems to me to be a great way to approach life. I think you have an excellent blend of realism and aspiration.

acdc01
08-17-15, 06:51 PM
There's a reason that "For as long as you continue to meet my needs" isn't in marriage vows.

... People with personality disorders do not "mellow with age"; quite the opposite. Unfortunately, when a spouse has a personality disorder, either you are ready for "the long haul" working around the difficulties of that disorder for the rest of your life, or you divorce quickly...

Some people say "Don't give up". I say "Don't give up unless you're absolutely sure it's time to give up". It's sadder, but wiser.

I was very impressed with your second quote dvdvwls that you gave in another thread - about giving up when you know it's time to give up. It sounds absolutely correct - you can't give up your happiness for someone else - you have to have your own needs met.

I guess we're at a very politically correct point in this thread so maybe I shouldn't be posting this. But it amazes me how we constantly tell ADHDers to get out of a marriage that's not meeting their needs, even if their partner's difficulties have to do with some other mental illness like a personality disorder. Yet we tell non-ADHDers that clearly already have been trying as hard as they can to be understanding of their ADHD partners that they just need to understand their partners and their mental illness better (can imagine it's annoying when you've already been trying so hard to be compromising and understanding).

I'm guessing I'll regret this post after I make it but oh well. I'm not trying to attack you by the way dvdvwls. Almost everyone posts the way you have. Your eloquent second quote just caught my eye.

dvdnvwls
08-17-15, 08:45 PM
Yet we tell non-ADHDers that clearly already have been trying as hard as they can to be understanding of their ADHD partners that they just need to understand their partners and their mental illness better (can imagine it's annoying when you've already been trying so hard to be compromising and understanding).

That (in bold) is the trouble. A great many people without ADHD aren't doing that. What they're doing is expecting the person with ADHD to change their nature. It can't be done. ADHD can be worked around and treated with medication and help of various kinds, but it can't be fixed.

It's necessary when compromising to inquire just what kind of compromise is going to be effective. Many without ADHD randomly volunteer to compromise on things that are unrelated and unhelpful because they seemingly can't believe that what we need is what we need, and can't believe that with some effective, useful compromises things would really be better.

Have you lived with anyone with a real personality disorder? If not, don't.

I'm not certain whether or not they are technically able to change their nature, but in practice they essentially don't do it. And it seems to me that in general personality disorders can't effectively be worked around, can't be treated with meds, AND can't be fixed. If you live with a narcissist or a sociopath, that disorder is basically what you get, day in and day out.

acdc01
08-17-15, 10:08 PM
That (in bold) is the trouble. A great many people without ADHD aren't doing that. What they're doing is expecting the person with ADHD to change their nature. It can't be done. ADHD can be worked around and treated with medication and help of various kinds, but it can't be fixed.

It's necessary when compromising to inquire just what kind of compromise is going to be effective. Many without ADHD randomly volunteer to compromise on things that are unrelated and unhelpful because they seemingly can't believe that what we need is what we need, and can't believe that with some effective, useful compromises things would really be better.

Have you lived with anyone with a real personality disorder? If not, don't.

I'm not certain whether or not they are technically able to change their nature, but in practice they essentially don't do it. And it seems to me that in general personality disorders can't effectively be worked around, can't be treated with meds, AND can't be fixed. If you live with a narcissist or a sociopath, that disorder is basically what you get, day in and day out.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here dvdvwls. In fact, I think there is a place and time for saying what you've said. But this thread (in my opinion) wasn't it. Just look back on this thread. the non-ADHD people posting here have been here for ages. They understand us better than we understand non-ADHD folks by far.

People sometimes just need a place to vent their frustrations and have other people validate and support them in their frustrations. The OP even posted later on that she was just venting. You and I need that as ADHDers and non-ADHDers need that too. It feels terrible when you come looking for sympathy only to be told, well your expectations are just too high. Some even posted that this is a repeat problem on this board where they feel like their concerns have been minimized.

By the way, I'm almost certain my dad has both ADHD and a personality disorder. Certainly the personality disorder is the worst, but my dad is incapable of improving even his ADHD issues (and this is not about misunderstandings - it's about him just not being able to improve to a point where life is better for my parents).

Having lived in a dysfunctional family, I only wish my parents had divorced ages ago. They really damaged us kids and they were miserable together. You think you're helping someone by staying with them but usually, they'd be miserable with or without you and then they also bring you and the kids down with them.

Sometimes, everyone involved is just better off when two people just realize they aren't suitable for each other, irrespective of whether one has a mental illness or not. Till death do us part isn't always the best. "Don't give up unless you're absolutely sure it's time to give up, is sadder but wiser".

BellaVita
08-17-15, 10:57 PM
That (in bold) is the trouble. A great many people without ADHD aren't doing that. What they're doing is expecting the person with ADHD to change their nature. It can't be done. ADHD can be worked around and treated with medication and help of various kinds, but it can't be fixed.

It's necessary when compromising to inquire just what kind of compromise is going to be effective. Many without ADHD randomly volunteer to compromise on things that are unrelated and unhelpful because they seemingly can't believe that what we need is what we need, and can't believe that with some effective, useful compromises things would really be better.

Have you lived with anyone with a real personality disorder? If not, don't.

I'm not certain whether or not they are technically able to change their nature, but in practice they essentially don't do it. And it seems to me that in general personality disorders can't effectively be worked around, can't be treated with meds, AND can't be fixed. If you live with a narcissist or a sociopath, that disorder is basically what you get, day in and day out.

Yes, wonderful post! :goodpost:

All of it!

I can say for certain the my narcissistic mother didn't change, my sociopath father didn't change, and neither did my borderline double ex. (Man, I got lucky didn't I? :rolleyes: - also I say "double ex" because it was not my last ex but the one before)

And totally agree about the part where ADHD partners are often not compromising or understanding, but instead keep begging for their partner to change - and are often in denial about how much it truly is ADHD that is affecting the relationship. And even the ones who aren't in denial, often push for the ADHD to be magically fixed and go away.

InvitroCanibal
08-18-15, 03:22 AM
Is there anything that could help him cope better with his symptoms?

Have you discussed what is stopping him?

Do you believe some of this is choice based?

How is his treatment going for his ADHD?

Fuzzy12
08-18-15, 03:38 AM
I was very impressed with your second quote dvdvwls that you gave in another thread - about giving up when you know it's time to give up. It sounds absolutely correct - you can't give up your happiness for someone else - you have to have your own needs met.

I guess we're at a very politically correct point in this thread so maybe I shouldn't be posting this. But it amazes me how we constantly tell ADHDers to get out of a marriage that's not meeting their needs, even if their partner's difficulties have to do with some other mental illness like a personality disorder. Yet we tell non-ADHDers that clearly already have been trying as hard as they can to be understanding of their ADHD partners that they just need to understand their partners and their mental illness better (can imagine it's annoying when you've already been trying so hard to be compromising and understanding).

I'm guessing I'll regret this post after I make it but oh well. I'm not trying to attack you by the way dvdvwls. Almost everyone posts the way you have. Your eloquent second quote just caught my eye.

I do advise non-adhders to get out of a marriage with an ADHD er as well if they can't cope or accept the way their ADHD partner is. I think there is often the notion that you can only leave a marriage if your partner is "bad" (or has a personality disorder :rolleyes:) but that's rubbish. Sometimes leaving is the best thing you can do both for yourself and your partner. It's not the partner necessarily that is bad but the marriage and sometimes it can't be improved and that is no one's fault.

Fuzzy12
08-18-15, 03:47 AM
I don't disagree with anything you've said here dvdvwls. In fact, I think there is a place and time for saying what you've said. But this thread (in my opinion) wasn't it. Just look back on this thread. the non-ADHD people posting here have been here for ages. They understand us better than we understand non-ADHD folks by far.

People sometimes just need a place to vent their frustrations and have other people validate and support them in their frustrations. The OP even posted later on that she was just venting. You and I need that as ADHDers and non-ADHDers need that too. It feels terrible when you come looking for sympathy only to be told, well your expectations are just too high. Some even posted that this is a repeat problem on this board where they feel like their concerns have been minimized.

By the way, I'm almost certain my dad has both ADHD and a personality disorder. Certainly the personality disorder is the worst, but my dad is incapable of improving even his ADHD issues (and this is not about misunderstandings - it's about him just not being able to improve to a point where life is better for my parents).

Having lived in a dysfunctional family, I only wish my parents had divorced ages ago. They really damaged us kids and they were miserable together. You think you're helping someone by staying with them but usually, they'd be miserable with or without you and then they also bring you and the kids down with them.

Sometimes, everyone involved is just better off when two people just realize they aren't suitable for each other, irrespective of whether one has a mental illness or not. Till death do us part isn't always the best. "Don't give up unless you're absolutely sure it's time to give up, is sadder but wiser".

Yup. Absolutely. When I was very young, in kindergarten or so, I was terrified that my parents might get divorced. Then in late primary to early secondary school I hoped they'd get divorced because they were obviously making each other miserable and by late secondary school once I understood that their cultural conditioning would never allow them to divorce I just wished they would.

I agree with everything else youeve said as well. Sometimes people just need to vent and to then be told off or vilified is incredibly discouraging. Also, yes, we often can't change how we are and how we function (or don't) and it's not our fault and often that means that non adhders living with us need to compromise but that doesn't mean that it doesn't suck..or that sometimes you can't wish it was different....or easier.

sarahsweets
08-18-15, 04:41 AM
I think the issue lies with how some people view what support is. Even when I vent, I want validation but I do want to hear perspectives. If I am asking for understanding, I expect that people will share how they learned to understand and accept things. Pure venting would be like me posting over and over in my thread and having no one respond. It feels good the first time, but after awhile i want to be a part of the solution not the problem. If someone geniunely wants to vent and doesnt want any tips, insight or advice then I guess saying thats what they are looking for at the beginning would be helpful because most people want more than just listeners. In fact I think because we are a support forum, the idea that venting not being about getting help sort of defeats the purpose of addf altogether.

InvitroCanibal
08-23-15, 05:34 AM
I think the issue lies with how some people view what support is. Even when I vent, I want validation but I do want to hear perspectives. If I am asking for understanding, I expect that people will share how they learned to understand and accept things. Pure venting would be like me posting over and over in my thread and having no one respond. It feels good the first time, but after awhile i want to be a part of the solution not the problem. If someone geniunely wants to vent and doesnt want any tips, insight or advice then I guess saying thats what they are looking for at the beginning would be helpful because most people want more than just listeners. In fact I think because we are a support forum, the idea that venting not being about getting help sort of defeats the purpose of addf altogether.

Very wise words. I find more and more that only the individual knows what they want, it's just that they are waiting for someone to ask them, and when no one asks, they seek out "advice."

acdc01
08-24-15, 07:58 PM
Is there anything that could help him cope better with his symptoms?

Have you discussed what is stopping him?

Do you believe some of this is choice based?

How is his treatment going for his ADHD?

Are you responding to my post about my dad?

If so, thanks. Meds didn't do much for him. He won't go to therapy.

I believe most ADHD problems by themselves can be solved if your ADHD isn't among the severest. But what holds my dad back (like many ADHDers I think) is the maladaptive coping habits and defenses he developed over his lifetime as well as his comorbids. The maladaptive habits have essentially become part of his personality so like personality disorders, become nearly impossible to change and also prevents him from truly being able to accept and improve himself.

For the longest time, my dad didn't have a job so my mom supported the family financially working 50-60 hours a week. He was emotionally distant from the rest of the family choosing to watch tv in his own room from dawn to bedtime even when his kids begged him to do something with him - so mom was the emotional support and child rearer in our family (with us in daycare/neighbors house when she was working) and she herself didn't get any adult emotional support at all when she needed it. My mom was the one who did all the cooking, cleaning, pretty much every chore in the house except taking out the garbage and mowing the lawn.

This meant my mom took on 97% of the family responsibilities and received only neglect from my dad and someone who still bossed her around cause he still couldn't stand not being "the man". If this board existed back then, she probably would have had a username with the word "tired" in it. And I can just see how she would have reacted if she came on this board looking for sympathy and understanding and then getting back "just lower your expectations" or "your just misunderstanding". She would first have responded back trying to defend herself. Then when not one but 4 people repeated the same thing, she would have felt ganged up by the very place she seeked solace, burst into tears, and never come on this board again.

Not everything is about misunderstandings. It is not about misunderstandings when your husband is completely emotionally distant and only takes on 3% of the household chores.

This board really needs to be more sensitive to these types of non-ADHDers which I think there are actually many. You're really hurting them with comments like the ones on this thread. Those comments are important but you really have to judge which threads are the right ones to use them in.

acdc01
08-24-15, 08:15 PM
Very wise words. I find more and more that only the individual knows what they want, it's just that they are waiting for someone to ask them, and when no one asks, they seek out "advice."

To me, it's not about giving different perspective - different advice is often good. It's about tact on how you present that different message and when you present it. We should be alert to people's sensitivities cause this is a really sensitive subject. Don't preach this message to people like my mom, who's main problem did not stem from misunderstandings (though there were some too).

Blanket/generic statements like "you just need to understand your spouse" isn't going to help nearly as much as pointing out specific examples to them. Like just tell them you need to take control of your finances, cause your husband can't help in this area. ADHD is a disability. He can help out in other areas instead. Saying these detaile changes their perspective a lot better than "you just need to lower your expectations" which the automatic response can often be defensive even when they still don't understand how to "lower expectations".

dvdnvwls
08-24-15, 09:31 PM
Not everything is about misunderstandings. It is not about misunderstandings when your husband is completely emotionally distant and only takes on 3% of the household chores.

The brute fact is that sometimes (and not infrequently) a case like that is indeed primarily about misunderstandings. It's not easy for a person with an ADHD spouse to have to figure all of this out for themselves, and they often fail to do so, with sad consequences. I'm not saying they should have to figure it out by themselves, only pointing out that it happens.

Luvmybully
08-24-15, 10:59 PM
Blanket/generic statements like "you just need to understand your spouse" isn't going to help nearly as much as pointing out specific examples to them. Like just tell them you need to take control of your finances, cause your husband can't help in this area. ADHD is a disability. He can help out in other areas instead. Saying these detaile changes their perspective a lot better than "you just need to lower your expectations" which the automatic response can often be defensive even when they still don't understand how to "lower expectations".

There have been many many many, here on this thread, detailed examples given about what is realistic, what adhd does to a lot of people in the beginning and later stages of a relationship. What a spouse can do to better understand what is happening.

So your "blanket, generic, need to understand" statement is ignoring much of what has been said, here, on this particular thread.

There has been so much in depth information given; can't get much more explicit than what has been said. How many times, and how many different ways, does it need to be said before it's no longer considered "generic, or "blanket" statements?

And you STILL keep insisting that altering expectations is synonymous with lowering them.

Again, exactly how many times does something need to be said before it can be acknowledged?

I will say it ONE MORE TIME:

Different expectations does NOT equal lower expectations.

Different is not an automatic negative. Different is JUST different. There is no need and it helps no one to constantly put a good/bad value on it.

It does not need a value at all. It is just DIFFERENT.

dvdnvwls
08-25-15, 12:29 AM
No one is suggesting lowering expectations.

Things that many non-ADHD spouses of people with ADHD need are

- an awareness that their original expectations of how things are going to happen in a relationship are simply expectations and no more - in other words, that their ideas aren't morally or logically necessary, but merely a product of convention and habit

- a willingness to change (NOT lower!) those expectations to suit their situation, in the same way that if they've put on fancy clothes and then notice it's raining, they would get out an umbrella instead of screaming at the clouds.

sarahsweets
08-25-15, 05:06 AM
I find that people use the words 'blanket statements' as a way to invalidate certain points.

acdc01
08-25-15, 03:51 PM
The brute fact is that sometimes (and not infrequently) a case like that is indeed primarily about misunderstandings. It's not easy for a person with an ADHD spouse to have to figure all of this out for themselves, and they often fail to do so, with sad consequences. I'm not saying they should have to figure it out by themselves, only pointing out that it happens.

The problem is, it is not always like this and here on this non-ADHD board it feels like most automatically assume that it is. It was certainly not that way with my mom - how did my mom's "misunderstanding" cause her to have to take on 97% of the responsibilities in the house and have a husband that was completely not there for there for the kids and for her? I even told you it was not about misunderstanding and then your response is that the fact is cases like this are sometimes (and not infrequently) about misunderstandings? How is this not invalidating her suffering and hardships?

On the ADHD forums, it's nearly always innocent until proven guilty and even when everything points to it being the ADHDer that has to change, our word choices are so much more sympathetic and careful.

I just think we need to apply the same principles here. It's clearly a touchy subject and we should give non-ADHDers the same understanding as we ADHDers ask for ourselves. I find it really harmful actually the way we've been approaching this. I can see people like my mom - where it wasn't about misunderstandings being scared away in tears even. I can see people still in denial of their misunderstandings become even more closed if we try to hammer this message in too quickly and in the wrong way - so they leave as well too. The only benefit is to people who are very open already to change - but these people probably would have gone on the other ADHD forums and got message anywhere from other threads where the message was more appropriate (like sarahsweets thread in another subforum). So the benefit is far less than the harm produced.

acdc01
08-25-15, 04:15 PM
I find that people use the words 'blanket statements' as a way to invalidate certain points.

I specifically said that the "misunderstandings" message was a very valid point. We just need apply that message with tact, knowing how and when to apply it.

I feel like it's actually you who's invalidating my point with this comment. Incidentally, I like your post in another forum about your non-ADHD partner misunderstanding you is not ok. I thought it was helpful there and it wasn't directed toward any non-ADHDer who might not have been misunderstanding their spouse or who was so in denial of it that the direct words are more harmful than helpful.

dvdnvwls
08-25-15, 04:40 PM
I specifically said that the "misunderstandings" message was a very valid point. We just need apply that message with tact, knowing how and when to apply it.

I feel like it's actually you who's invalidating my point with this comment. Incidentally, I like your post in another forum about your non-ADHD partner misunderstanding you is not ok. I thought it was helpful there and it wasn't directed toward any non-ADHDer who might not have been misunderstanding their spouse or who was so in denial of it that the direct words are more harmful than helpful.

Your point indeed wasn't valid, and I pointed that out. Nothing wrong with that, I'm afraid.

acdc01
08-25-15, 04:45 PM
Your point indeed wasn't valid, and I pointed that out. Nothing wrong with that, I'm afraid.

Oh my. This conversation is getting too critical for me. I think I'll bow out.

Amazing how we preach understanding yet when a number of non-ADHDers point out this is a consistent problem, there is no understanding.

Luvmybully
08-25-15, 04:46 PM
The problem is, it is not always like this and here on this non-ADHD board it feels like most automatically assume that it is. It was certainly not that way with my mom - how did my mom's "misunderstanding" cause her to have to take on 97% of the responsibilities in the house and have a husband that was completely not there for there for the kids and for her? I even told you it was not about misunderstanding and then your response is that the fact is cases like this are sometimes (and not infrequently) about misunderstandings? How is this not invalidating her suffering and hardships?

On the ADHD forums, it's nearly always innocent until proven guilty and even when everything points to it being the ADHDer that has to change, our word choices are so much more sympathetic and careful.

I just think we need to apply the same principles here. It's clearly a touchy subject and we should give non-ADHDers the same understanding as we ADHDers ask for ourselves. I find it really harmful actually the way we've been approaching this. I can see people like my mom - where it wasn't about misunderstandings being scared away in tears even. I can see people still in denial of their misunderstandings become even more closed if we try to hammer this message in too quickly and in the wrong way - so they leave as well too. The only benefit is to people who are very open already to change - but these people probably would have gone on the other ADHD forums and got message anywhere from other threads where the message was more appropriate (like sarahsweets thread in another subforum). So the benefit is far less than the harm produced.

The problem is, that it does not matter HOW it is said, you refuse to accept ANY MENTION whatsoever of altered expectations and misunderstanding.

You assume that a non-adhd partner (which I am one of, by the way) is going to be harmed by being told this simple truth. In any form.

There have been some excellent posts in this thread about what it is like, many perspectives, from those with and without adhd. And yet you cling to the denial of any validity of the most common issue, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of the impact of adhd and its limitations, and the absolute NECESSITY of examining expectations and adjusting them according to reality, not pre-conceived notions of what "should" be.

It has been stated so plainly and simply and clearly. And you still claim it is harmful.

If simple truth is harmful, there really is no valid alternative ways to help a non-adhd spouse understand, and create a better strategy. It is not actual support if the truth is not part of it.

And don't even say again it is method of delivery, because it has been delivered in so many different ways. Kind, caring, compassionate and very very blunt and clear. So no, it is NOT the delivery you repeatedly have issue with. It is the message itself you object to.

Your mother's situation was not simply a spouse with adhd. You have said there was more than that. And the ADHD was not treated. So an adhd forum would not even come close to giving her the help she needed, because that help is not possible without serious medical intervention.

Your mother's story is not an exact duplicate of what was presented here, on THIS thread, and yet you constantly use her story as a point of reference. Her story does not match. The advice and thoughts and explanations given here, on ths thread, are entirely unrelated to your mother's story. They were given to a very specific situation. That does not match your mother's.

So YES, in THIS thread, there is a common theme of misunderstanding the full, lifelong impact of adhd. This just happens to also be a common issue with many, if not the majority, of relationships with an adhd spouse.

And YES, in THIS thread, there is a need to re-evaluate expectations and adjust them according to the reality of the individual with adhd. Again, this is also a common need in relationships where one spouse has adhd.

acdc01
08-25-15, 04:53 PM
The problem is, that it does not matter HOW it is said, you refuse to accept ANY MENTION whatsoever of altered expectations and misunderstanding.

You assume that a non-adhd partner (which I am one of, by the way) is going to be harmed by being told this simple truth. In any form.

There have been some excellent posts in this thread about what it is like, many perspectives, from those with and without adhd. And yet you cling to the denial of any validity of the most common issue, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of the impact of adhd and its limitations, and the absolute NECESSITY of examining expectations and adjusting them according to reality, not pre-conceived notions of what "should" be.

It has been stated so plainly and simply and clearly. And you still claim it is harmful.

If simple truth is harmful, there really is no valid alternative ways to help a non-adhd spouse understand, and create a better strategy. It is not actual support if the truth is not part of it.

And don't even say again it is method of delivery, because it has been delivered in so many different ways. Kind, caring, compassionate and very very blunt and clear. So no, it is NOT the delivery you repeatedly have issue with. It is the message itself you object to.

Your mother's situation was not simply a spouse with adhd. You have said there was more than that. And the ADHD was not treated. So an adhd forum would not even come close to giving her the help she needed, because that help is not possible without serious medical intervention.

Your mother's story is not an exact duplicate of what was presented here, on THIS thread, and yet you constantly use her story as a point of reference. Her story does not match. The advice and thoughts and explanations given here, on ths thread, are entirely unrelated to your mother's story. They were given to a very specific situation. That does not match your mother's.

So YES, in THIS thread, there is a common theme of misunderstanding the full, lifelong impact of adhd. This just happens to also be a common issue with many, if not the majority, of relationships with an adhd spouse.

And YES, in THIS thread, there is a need to re-evaluate expectations and adjust them according to the reality of the individual with adhd. Again, this is also a common need in relationships where one spouse has adhd.

The OP even said she knew she had to take care of the finances. She understood and just wanted to vent. She should be allowed to vent and receive sympathy for her hardships without a message about misunderstandings when there wasn't any. I only used my mother's case because some people clearly do not get that point and wanted to drive home how hurtful it can be when the message isn't applied in the right situation.

Anyway, I told myself I'll stop posting on this thread. All of us have really drifted off topic anyway.

Luvmybully
08-25-15, 05:07 PM
The OP even said she knew she had to take care of the finances. She understood and just wanted to vent. She should be allowed to vent and receive sympathy for her hardships without a message about misunderstandings when there wasn't any. I only used my mother's case because some people clearly do not get that point and wanted to drive home how hurtful it can be when the message isn't applied in the right situation.

Anyway, I told myself I'll stop posting on this thread. All of us have really drifted off topic anyway.

Actually, it really IS on topic. The finance part was just one piece of the discussion. It was the subsequent discussion of adhd partner's changing that the majority of this thread has been about.

The misunderstanding of WHY adhd partner's change has been the situation the message was applied to.

So again, YES, in THIS thread, misunderstanding is a critical part of the problem. Needs to be discussed, understood, so the partner can better form expectations for a healthier, happier relationship. For BOTH of them.

acdc01
08-25-15, 05:31 PM
Actually, it really IS on topic. The finance part was just one piece of the discussion. It was the subsequent discussion of adhd partner's changing that the majority of this thread has been about.

The misunderstanding of WHY adhd partner's change has been the situation the message was applied to.

So again, YES, in THIS thread, misunderstanding is a critical part of the problem. Needs to be discussed, understood, so the partner can better form expectations for a healthier, happier relationship. For BOTH of them.

No it's not. Read the OPs quote below from this thread. It was in response to someone talking about "misunderstandings" and doing things differently/adapting expectations. It's not what she was looking for. She even said she was looking for "specifics". Yet a ton of people just had to hammer back in the misunderstandings message (although some did provide some specifics with that message - they still had to include that message and the type of specifics she was looking for wasn't what they were giving). Like I said, I mentioned my mom only cause I understand how tiring it can get - just read how hard OP has been trying to understand and support her husband - that message does not need to be jackhammered in at every oppurtunity. Non-adhd partners are victims of ADHD too and sometimes just need the opportunity to vent and receive sympathy. I'm feeling bad that I too veered so much and am probably harming the OP too (though I'm guessing she's been scared away already by now). Just wanted to see if this could be avoided in the future as it's a reoccurring event but I guess not. So last time I'm going to say last post lol. But seriously, do read her post below again because I'm pretty sure you are harming people even though your intentions are good.

I was just asking for advice, he is not the same as when we first got married. We have been married for over 12 years and were together for 2 years prior. I have tried all the usual things to help him and get things done. I have taken over the finances. I am here still because I love him very much. Maybe my description of my situation was colored by the frustration at the moment. I was looking for specifics. I do advocate for him with my family and remind them of his ADD. But I do think in public it is not too much to at least be pleasant, which he was in the past. This is a new behavior for him. I was reaching out for help and advice, because I love him and don't want us to go under. I guess I just needed some support and kindness. I am a heart transplant patient who wants to live life to the fullest, since I came so close to losing my life and I want him to enjoy it, too. I also have Graves Eye Disease and am awaiting muscle surgery so I can't go out alone to events or anywhere since I am seeing double and can no longer drive until the surgery. I am having to wait until Sept. to be sure my eyes don't worsen before surgery, so going out alone is not an option at this time. I have gone without him to family functions when he didn't want to go, with my daughter and her family, but I do want to share my time with him, too. I am cutting all unnecessary expenses and my family has loaned us some money to help, so I am seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. I am also helping him by looking up jobs for him on the internet that are within his field because he gets bogged down and distracted with too many choices. I guess that sometimes when it becomes so overwhelming and you feel so helpless and alone you have to vent. I guess the person who replied (dvdnwls)doesn't understand. I love him or I wouldn't be looking for answers or help or compassion for the frustration. I have dealt with my share of medical issues and I have been able to deal with those because they are my issues and I know how to handle them, but this is different. I try to be supportive and encouraging. Some of you have offered great input on things to help with the issues and I thank you with all my heart. That is what I was looking for. It was my understanding that this forum was for support for NonADD spouses looking for answers, help and encouragement and to those who have offered that I am most appreciative. I have read some posts that were extremely helpful and I will try them. Thank you so much and I am sorry this post was so long.

Luvmybully
08-25-15, 05:36 PM
No it's not. Read the OPs quote below from this thread. It was in response to someone talking about "misunderstandings" and doing things differently/adapting expectations. It's not what she was looking for. She even said she was looking for "specifics". Yet a ton of people just had to hammer back in the misunderstandings message. Like I said, I mentioned my mom cause I understand how tiring it can get - just read how hard OP has been trying to understand and support her husband - that message does not need to be jackhammered in at every oppurtunity. Non-adhd partners are victims of ADHD too and sometimes just need the opportunity to vent and receive sympathy. I'm feeling bad too that I veered so much too so last time I'm going to say last post lol.

Yes, it IS.

She said her husband was NOT THE SAME as he was 12 years ago.

This is what sparked the entire rest of the discussion. SPECIFICALLY, some of the reasons adhd spouses "change" more profoundly than non-adhd spouses.

She IS trying hard to UNDERSTAND. If she DID understand, she would not look for help! Misunderstanding is soo common, and understanding is crucial.

acdc01
08-25-15, 06:00 PM
Yes, it IS.

She said her husband was NOT THE SAME as he was 12 years ago.

This is what sparked the entire rest of the discussion. SPECIFICALLY, some of the reasons adhd spouses "change" more profoundly than non-adhd spouses.

She IS trying hard to UNDERSTAND. If she DID understand, she would not look for help! Misunderstanding is so common, and understanding is crucial.

It's helpful when non-ADHDers/ADHDers talk about how they've struggled with the same thing and that it's due to the ADHD. It's helpful when we talk about different methods we apply to make it so we aren't as irritable and more social. Even if it's possible she didn't understand this change was due to the ADHD, it's still not helpful to point out over and over again that she is just misunderstanding or that this is just a misunderstanding. Obviously from her post, you can see she feels like she has to defend herself. It borders on attack the way we push this message.

It's not her misunderstanding that's causing her husband to spend from down to dusk in his room and then not wanting to participate in any event with her. This is really unacceptable behavior even if our ADHD contributes to it. The main underlying problem is not her misunderstanding in this case. Our ADHD doesn't excuse us from having to be there for our friends and family.

dvdnvwls
08-25-15, 06:06 PM
Oh my. This conversation is getting too critical for me. I think I'll bow out.

Amazing how we preach understanding yet when a number of non-ADHDers point out this is a consistent problem, there is no understanding.

I must have sounded very harsh, and for that I apologize.

However, the idea that people who hold the dominant viewpoint and dominant set of expectations, already communicated loud and clear every hour of every day in essentially every workplace, household, and school, are saying that their views need to be understood better, is clearly a non-starter. The "consistent problem" they believe they are pointing out is simply the fact that (gasp! ooh! aah!) someone in the world doesn't share their expectations and isn't able to live with those expectations.

dvdnvwls
08-25-15, 06:24 PM
It's not her misunderstanding that's causing her husband to spend from down to dusk in his room and then not wanting to participate in any event with her.

I've been there. I've done that. It is precisely what you say it isn't.

acdc01
08-25-15, 06:27 PM
I've been there. I've done that. It is precisely what you say it isn't.

Please explain to me how it's about her misunderstanding dvdnwls cause I do not understand and would like to.

Thanks for your apology by the way. If I'm sounding like I'm attacking you or anyone else in anyway I apologize for that too.

acdc01
08-25-15, 07:00 PM
I just read the "how to deal with feeling ignored" thread on this subforum. I think the way people responded there was fantastic and the way we (including myself) should have responded in this thread. People were sympathetic and understanding in that thread. At least one did suggest it may be a misunderstanding (used the words "projected her own feelings") but it was done so in a very soft and considerate manner.

dvdnvwls
08-26-15, 12:08 AM
Please explain to me how it's about her misunderstanding dvdnwls cause I do not understand and would like to.

Thanks for your apology by the way. If I'm sounding like I'm attacking you or anyone else in anyway I apologize for that too.

You don't sound like you're attacking or anything like that. You do sound like you're not paying attention to what's been said - and I sound that way in some other threads so I know what that's like. :)

There is more than one way that this happens, or more than one factor involved; in any case, all I can give are answers that fit my own experience, and they might not fit anyone else's. But in several threads I've read, the parallels are striking.

1. A very simple but very powerful reason: If you beat a dog enough times, the dog will figure out that he's better off if he hides when he sees you coming. :( To be specific, if some of your ADHD symptoms become obvious to a partner who doesn't understand what ADHD entails, they are likely to blame you, for the undesirable results and for the symptoms as such. The next time, not only will you get blamed for both the results and the symptoms, but for being defiant as well. When that goes on for long enough, the ADHDer getting the constant unjustified blame is likely to want to hide. Frankly, I don't blame them. I hid for years.

2. Being worried that a specific impossible demand is going to be the topic of conversation. Not wanting to be exposed to unjustified anger; not wanting to want revenge.

3. Being tired of trying to explain that can't means can't, and tired of trying to explain that "you" does not equal "me". Not wanting to explode with anger.

4. Being sad that the non-ADHD partner is not interested in getting to know me if getting to know me means finding out I'm different. Actually more despair than sadness, after a while. Not wanting to face the truth of not being loved.

5. Feeling that it would be better (or at least less painful) to pursue positive or neutral activities in peace in another room, instead of enduring never-ending nagging over impossible demands.


With a SO's real effort at understanding, every one of these reasons (with the possible partial exception of #5) would quickly evaporate.

sarahsweets
08-26-15, 04:26 AM
I just read the "how to deal with feeling ignored" thread on this subforum. I think the way people responded there was fantastic and the way we (including myself) should have responded in this thread. People were sympathetic and understanding in that thread. At least one did suggest it may be a misunderstanding (used the words "projected her own feelings") but it was done so in a very soft and considerate manner.

You keep mentioning the way the message is delivered and how people should have responded in this thread as a reason for why what some people are saying isnt true- if that makes any sense. The thing is, just because something is not said in a way that you think it should have, doesnt mean it isnt valid or that it doesnt need to be said. Of course no one means to sound harsh but the realities of adhd are not always easy to convey. Trying to help non adhd partners understand that certain things with adhd will be cants and not wonts isnt easy to say without seeming blunt-what we have lived with year after year makes us a little jaded. I feel like being blunt is better than saying things that sound pleasing because we are talking about peoples lives. We are talking about a group of people who are always told they dont want to change, or rather should change because the non adhd partner says so.

With my alcoholism I realize that life for my husband was chaos and uncertainty for a long time. Once I got sober I was able to make amends for my part in that, but there are always two parts in everything. My husband didnt force me to drink, but the dynamics between us meant that in order for him to support my recovery and help me to stay sober meant that he couldnt continue to hold my alcoholism and all the past behaviors that came with it against me. Just like adhd, no one wants to be an alcoholic but if everyday before I got sober I was told how flawed I was and how I was ruining my family's life and how hard I was making things, it would have really interfered with my sobriety. If I had been told I had to stop drinking and that I was weak for not being able to do it on my own, I would have felt so bad I may never have gotten help.
This is similar to adhd. If the adhd person is told they should want to change, and that they should always be on the lookout for how they can adjust their inherent behaviors to suit the non-adhd partner, they may never have gotten help because all of their time would be spent on beating themselves up for their shortcomings and would have left no hope for help. I dont think I am doing a very good job at explaining this, but does that make sense to anyone?

BellaVita
08-26-15, 05:38 AM
Yes, it IS.

She said her husband was NOT THE SAME as he was 12 years ago.

This is what sparked the entire rest of the discussion. SPECIFICALLY, some of the reasons adhd spouses "change" more profoundly than non-adhd spouses.

She IS trying hard to UNDERSTAND. If she DID understand, she would not look for help! Misunderstanding is soo common, and understanding is crucial.

People often misunderstand that they're having a misunderstanding - they often falsely label it as something else.

Not in a bad way, it's just sometimes it's difficult to detect due to brain differences.

BellaVita
08-26-15, 05:55 AM
Wow - these are some emotionally packed comments on this thread.

:grouphug:'s to everyone.

Luvmybully
08-26-15, 11:40 AM
Even if it's possible she didn't understand this change was due to the ADHD, it's still not helpful to point out over and over again that she is just misunderstanding or that this is just a misunderstanding. Obviously from her post, you can see she feels like she has to defend herself. It borders on attack the way we push this message.

It's not her misunderstanding that's causing her husband to spend from down to dusk in his room and then not wanting to participate in any event with her. This is really unacceptable behavior even if our ADHD contributes to it. The main underlying problem is not her misunderstanding in this case. Our ADHD doesn't excuse us from having to be there for our friends and family.

I have to wonder at this point if we are even discussing the same thing?

I can not fathom WHY you keep insisting that identifying the root of the problem is not helpful. There is absolutely NO situation that will be improved without at least the aknowledgment of the CAUSE.

To clarify:
I have been referring to the phenomenon of drastic change that many non-adhd partners have stated as a common problem. This change manifests in different ways, one of them being the adhd sufferer withdrawing from people/situations they once were more actively involved with.

When someone posts they are trying to gain insight, trying to understand, I cannot figure out WHAT you think would be helpful, if giving her insight into the very heart, the root, of the problem, is not?

And, adhd as an "excuse" is hard to take in any kind of positive, helpful way.

Luvmybully
08-26-15, 12:36 PM
Too late to edit, so here is what has been in the back of my mind.

acdc01, you seem to take "misunderstand" as a flaw, or character fault on behalf of the misunderstanding spouse. You have very strong negative connotations to the very idea that a spouse's misunderstanding is part of the problem.

It really is NOT a flaw on the spouse's part! Sometimes, when a person thinks/feels/responds in ways that are so vastly different from your own ways, it is nearly impossible to understand, without SOME kind of explanation.

Understanding does NOT mean the problem will go away. I think this is a point that so many have been trying to make clear.

A spouse understanding just makes it easier to form a plan. Yes, it takes BOTH partners to make things better. NO, it is NOT 100% the fault of the non-adhd partner.

Even if the non-adhd partner does eventually come to full comprehension of what their partner is dealing with, that does NOT MEAN it is now on them, the non-adhd partner, to "fix it" for the adhd partner.

It is NOT the "fault" of the non-adhd partner, that is NOT what the overwhelming message has been. Misunderstanding the cause does not = fault.

Misunderstanding the cause just makes it so very hard to move forward in a positive way. Without a basic understanding, it is darn near impossible to avoid neagtive interactions, that build more negative interactions.

Again, this is not a finger pointing, blame laying, fault accusation at the feet of the one that does not understand. It is an EXPLANATION of why the struggle is getting harder instead of easier, worse instead of better.

I hope this was clear!

dvdnvwls
08-26-15, 02:13 PM
Receiving insight from others on a problem or question (as the OP requested) can be difficult to handle, because often the truly insightful responses are ones that begin by pointing out that the original question is inadequate or even incorrect. There are people who, when faced with that, say the equivalent of "Please just answer my question", not realizing that in doing so they are cutting themselves off from learning anything worthwhile.

acdc01
08-26-15, 07:58 PM
You don't sound like you're attacking or anything like that. You do sound like you're not paying attention to what's been said - and I sound that way in some other threads so I know what that's like. :)

There is more than one way that this happens, or more than one factor involved; in any case, all I can give are answers that fit my own experience, and they might not fit anyone else's. But in several threads I've read, the parallels are striking.

1. A very simple but very powerful reason: If you beat a dog enough times, the dog will figure out that he's better off if he hides when he sees you coming. :( To be specific, if some of your ADHD symptoms become obvious to a partner who doesn't understand what ADHD entails, they are likely to blame you, for the undesirable results and for the symptoms as such. The next time, not only will you get blamed for both the results and the symptoms, but for being defiant as well. When that goes on for long enough, the ADHDer getting the constant unjustified blame is likely to want to hide. Frankly, I don't blame them. I hid for years.

2. Being worried that a specific impossible demand is going to be the topic of conversation. Not wanting to be exposed to unjustified anger; not wanting to want revenge.

3. Being tired of trying to explain that can't means can't, and tired of trying to explain that "you" does not equal "me". Not wanting to explode with anger.

4. Being sad that the non-ADHD partner is not interested in getting to know me if getting to know me means finding out I'm different. Actually more despair than sadness, after a while. Not wanting to face the truth of not being loved.

5. Feeling that it would be better (or at least less painful) to pursue positive or neutral activities in peace in another room, instead of enduring never-ending nagging over impossible demands.


With a SO's real effort at understanding, every one of these reasons (with the possible partial exception of #5) would quickly evaporate.

I agree that being beaten down in life is often the reason why severe ADHDers become the way they are. But you can't assume it was the spouse's misunderstandings that did this to them every time a non-ADHDer posts on this board. I'd imagine the ADHDer had had people beating them down their entire life long before they got married and really already had been messed up. Actually, childhood experiences do a lot more to you than adult experiences. They could very easily have had more motivation in the beginning because of the newness of the relationship and then just have gone back to what they were prior to their marriage. So correcting any misunderstandings with the spouse won't solve the problem that already existed prior to the marriage. Or perhaps they lost a job (which had happened to the OPs husband) and that, not their personal relationships, brought them down even further.

The root of the problem could very well not be any misunderstandings between the spouses. So solving misunderstandings will not fix the problem.

Regardless of whether you guys are right or not about whether the problems are caused by misunderstands and regardless of whether misunderstandings is a negative thing/flaw, many posters here will react as if you are accusing them of something if you aren't politically correct about how you say things or when you say them. It's something we understand and broach very carefully on ADHDer subforums, but not here.

You can tell things weren't worded well in this thread and on many threads cause multiple non-ADHDers have pretty much said so. The OP stopped posting here a long time ago, most likely turned off by the posts here (including mine probably) after she said she just wanted to vent and was doing a number of things already to try to help her husband. This isn't to mention the frequency of responses. Someone points out the minimizing of concerns and then not one, but 4 ADHDers (and 1 non-ADHDer) respond back. That can feel overwhelming and scary (though I'm ok with it as this really isn't a trigger topic for me). If we want to help people, we can't scare them away.

Again, I'd recommend reading that other thread about feeling ignored on this subforum. I would think we'd all agree the advice there was good and well worded. No one would leave in tears from the posts there whereas here, well I'm pretty sure some would.

sarahsweets
08-27-15, 04:31 AM
I agree that being beaten down in life is often the reason why severe ADHDers become the way they are. But you can't assume it was the spouse's misunderstandings that did this to them every time a non-ADHDer posts on this board.

I dont think anyone is saying that the spouse's misunderstanding is the sole cause of everything with the adhd'r.

I'd imagine the ADHDer had had people beating them down their entire life long before they got married and really already had been messed up. Actually, childhood experiences do a lot more to you than adult experiences. They could very easily have had more motivation in the beginning because of the newness of the relationship and then just have gone back to what they were prior to their marriage. So correcting any misunderstandings with the spouse won't solve the problem that already existed prior to the marriage.
It might not solve anything but it certainly can help alleviate any discord between the two people. And correcting any misunderstandings can certainly help solve a problem that existed before marriage just like ignoring it could make it worse.


The root of the problem could very well not be any misunderstandings between the spouses. So solving misunderstandings will not fix the problem.
Yes but the misunderstandings are what the op is talking about so solving them can absolutely work to make things better.

many posters here will react as if you are accusing them of something if you aren't politically correct about how you say things or when you say them. It's something we understand and broach very carefully on ADHDer subforums, but not here.
This isnt about being politically correct, its about offering an explanation.

You can tell things weren't worded well in this thread and on many threads cause multiple non-ADHDers have pretty much said so. The OP stopped posting here a long time ago, most likely turned off by the posts here (including mine probably) after she said she just wanted to vent and was doing a number of things already to try to help her husband.
Unless the op comes back and says she left because of peoples responses we cant assume we've driven her away. We get tons of people who post something and then lose interest or disappear.
This isn't to mention the frequency of responses. Someone points out the minimizing of concerns and then not one, but 4 ADHDers (and 1 non-ADHDer) respond back. That can feel overwhelming and scary (though I'm ok with it as this really isn't a trigger topic for me). If we want to help people, we can't scare them away.
It sounds like you have an idea of "rules" in your head about how we have to approach people who post. 5 people responding to a thread can mean that its interesting, and that people really want a dialogue about it.

No one would leave in tears from the posts there whereas here, well I'm pretty sure some would.

Again, you are assuming harm has been done. People may not like what some people have to say or how they say it but its more about principles then personalities. Its good to look for the value in what has been posted. If five people respond right away to something it means that its interesting and to me, it would make me take another look at things if so many people had a similar opinion. There are some people who want info about the problem but arent interested in being part of the solution. Its not up to us to guess which kind of person the OP is.

Luvmybully
08-27-15, 11:05 AM
I agree that being beaten down in life is often the reason why severe ADHDers become the way they are. But you can't assume it was the spouse's misunderstandings that did this to them every time a non-ADHDer posts on this board.

You seem to be the only one making assumptions. And I can not believe you ACTUALLY wrote people assume the spouse's misunderstand "did this to them". Seriously?? After ALL that has been written here, you say THIS?!?

You clearly are not reading everything. It has been said OVER AND OVER AND OVER, repeatedly, in just about every way something can be said, that adhd is what is misunderstood.

The root of the problem could very well not be any misunderstandings between the spouses. So solving misunderstandings will not fix the problem.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Or do you truly not comprehend a single thing that has been written here? And I do not mean this in a nasty way. I just do not know at this point HOW you can honestly be making these bizzarre statements after multiple explanations have been given?


Regardless of whether you guys are right or not about whether the problems are caused by misunderstands and regardless of whether misunderstandings is a negative thing/flaw, many posters here will react as if you are accusing them of something if you aren't politically correct about how you say things or when you say them. It's something we understand and broach very carefully on ADHDer subforums, but not here.

Again, you seem to be the one the the biggest problem here. Politically correct? You are reading meanings into statements that just are not there. YOU are. You are rushing to defend people that YOU feel some need to protect, from an imaginary "harm". Of COURSE there will be folk that take offense. That is human nature. In every group of people on earth.

You can tell things weren't worded well in this thread and on many threads cause multiple non-ADHDers have pretty much said so. The OP stopped posting here a long time ago, most likely turned off by the posts here (including mine probably) after she said she just wanted to vent and was doing a number of things already to try to help her husband. This isn't to mention the frequency of responses. Someone points out the minimizing of concerns and then not one, but 4 ADHDers (and 1 non-ADHDer) respond back. That can feel overwhelming and scary (though I'm ok with it as this really isn't a trigger topic for me). If we want to help people, we can't scare them away.

I have been all over these forums for a few years now. No, this subformum is NOT some vastly different universe than the rest of them. I have seen nit picky conflicts, differences of opinion, very heated exchanges, all over these forums.

And this site has several THOUSAND members. Why are you surprised that there are multiple responses? That makes no sense. It is a MESSAGE forum. If one does not want to talk with many other people, then they should NOT engage them on such a huge forum.

Again, I'd recommend reading that other thread about feeling ignored on this subforum. I would think we'd all agree the advice there was good and well worded. No one would leave in tears from the posts there whereas here, well I'm pretty sure some would.

No. Just NO. THIS thread is what we are discussing. There was, in particular, one VERY SPECIFIC issue discussed that YOU took every response to and turned into an imaginary attack against all non-adhd members in general.

In spite of multiple attempts to explain that adhd is a lifelong disorder that needs to be understood in order to deal with effectively, you STILL insist that those words are blaming the spouse. That is nonsense!

I am tired of being accused of attacking people. I attacked no one! I did not say ANYTHING harsh or critical, to ANY non-adhd spouse that potsed in THIS thread. Enough of the baseless accusations already!

acdc01
08-27-15, 11:24 AM
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Ok, I think I'm done.

I have no idea how you can say you don't mean the word "obtuse" in a non-nasty by the way luvmybully. That is just too much.


And sarahsweets, yes multiple people responding back in the manner which you guys do can seem overwhelming to many. It's actually overwhelming for me too cause it's too much to answer back at one time but for others it can seem like being ganged up on. We've seen this happen on the other boards too.

BellaVita
08-27-15, 11:29 AM
And sarahsweets, yes multiple people responding back in the manner which you guys do can seem overwhelming to many. It's actually overwhelming for me too cause it's too much to answer back at one time but for others it can seem like being ganged up on. We've seen this happen on the other boards too.

This is a support forum, of course there will be multiple comments.

For me, when I make a thread and multiple people respond I feel grateful that people want to help me.

Also, keep in mind the OP doesn't have ADHD so it's not as overwhelming for them to see multiple posts. In fact it's probably not even an issue. (Of course I can't speak for them - this is just based on my observations of NTs)

Luvmybully
08-27-15, 11:34 AM
Ok, I think I'm done.

I have no idea how you can say you don't mean the word "obtuse" in a non-nasty by the way luvmybully. That is just too much.




Because I told you. Usually when someone goes out of their way to mention a fact, one has a reasonable expectation that it will at least be attempted to be understood.

Deliberately obtuse is a wilful disregard of what was written, a wilful
overlooking of relevant facts and information.

Which you seem to be doing, on a very regular basis, on THIS thread.

When you constantly accuse people of attacking others, how did you think they would respond?

anonymouslyadd
08-27-15, 12:04 PM
Part of good communication is to make sure the one receiving the message understands what was said. Of course, the one receiving the message needs to reach out and ask for clarification should they not understand. Ultimately, it's the person, who initiated the communication, to make sure their message has been heard and understood as it was intended.

acdc01
08-27-15, 03:37 PM
Because I told you. Usually when someone goes out of their way to mention a fact, one has a reasonable expectation that it will at least be attempted to be understood.

Deliberately obtuse is a wilful disregard of what was written, a wilful
overlooking of relevant facts and information.

Which you seem to be doing, on a very regular basis, on THIS thread.

When you constantly accuse people of attacking others, how did you think they would respond?

I have not willfully done any of what you accuse me of. If I have, you have done the exact same thing.

Your use of the word obtuse is almost as bad as if you substituted the word "stupid" it. It is awful and feels a violate of the rules here.

"Are you being deliberately stupid". Oh, I don't mean the word "stupid" in a non-nasty way.

Luvmybully
08-27-15, 03:47 PM
I have not willfully done any of what you accuse me of. If I have, you have done the exact same thing.

Your use of the word obtuse is almost as bad as if you substituted the word "stupid" it. It is awful and feels a violate of the rules here.

"Are you being deliberately stupid". Oh, I don't mean the word "stupid" in a non-nasty way.

I have already explained to you what DELIBERATELY obtuse means to me, and why I asked. If you CHOOSE to see it only as "stupid", that is YOUR decision, and is all on you.

acdc01
08-27-15, 04:05 PM
I have already explained to you what DELIBERATELY obtuse means to me, and why I asked. If you CHOOSE to see it only as "stupid", that is YOUR decision, and is all on you.

Boy, this is again about tact and word choice. Your phrasing and use of the word obtuse is absolutely terrible and if you can't see that, well then it's pretty obvious why we have been completely disagreeing all this time.

EDIT: I looked up synonyms for obtuse by the way. They included dumb, unintelligent, dense, slow on the uptake - pretty much stupid. Yes there were some less harsh phrasing but still, for you to expect me not to be insulted by your phrasing is astounding.

Luvmybully
08-27-15, 04:18 PM
Boy, this is again about tact and word choice. Your phrasing and use of the word obtuse is absolutely terrible and if you can't see that, well then it's pretty obvious why we have been completely disagreeing all this time.

EDIT: I looked up synonyms for obtuse by the way. They included dumb, unintelligent, dense, slow on the uptake - pretty much stupid. Yes there were some less harsh phrasing but still, for you to expect me not to be insulted by your phrasing is astounding.

and again, you REFUSE to acknowledge what has been said.

For example:
I said: "the non-adhd spouse is not to blame for the adhd spouse's struggles. It is NOT the non-adhd spouse's job to fix it for the adhd spouse."

your reply:
"you can't just assume the non adhd spouse is the reason for the adhd spouse's struggles."

So, I asked, " either you did not read what was written. OR; you did read it and deliberately CHOSE to ignore it.


Which one was it?

Now, you CHOOSE to stick to your one and only interpretation. No matter WHAT is said, you do not even acknowledge you may just have misinterpreted meaning. EVEN when it is spelled out to you, you claim no understanding of an alternate meaning.

So again, did you not read it? Or are you deliberately choosing to igniore it?

acdc01
08-27-15, 04:23 PM
and again, you REFUSE to acknowledge what has been said.

For example:
I said: "the non-adhd spouse is not to blame for the adhd spouse's struggles. It is NOT the non-adhd spouse's job to fix it for the adhd spouse."

your reply:
"you can't just assume the non adhd spouse is the reason for the adhd spouse's struggles."

So, I asked, " either you did not read what was written. OR; you did read it and deliberately CHOSE to ignore it.


Which one was it?

Now, you CHOOSE to stick to your one and only interpretation. No matter WHAT is said, you do not even acknowledge you may just have misinterpreted meaning. EVEN when it is spelled out to you, you claim no understanding of an alternate meaning.

So again, did you not read it? Or are you deliberately choosing to igniore it?

What you are talking about? I told you I'm done with this conversation as we are never going to agree so discussion is pointless. I have the right to stop participating in pointless conversations and that is not me being obtuse - any rational person would do that.

The only thing I'm telling you now is that you should NEVER call anyone obtuse or say they are being obtuse. That sounds extremely insulting no matter what your intentions are and personally think it's a violation of the rules here.

anonymouslyadd
08-27-15, 04:41 PM
The only thing I'm telling you now is that you should NEVER call anyone obtuse or say they are being obtuse. That sounds extremely insulting no matter what your intentions are and personally think it's a violation of the rules here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dakxwoVV7yM

:giggle: :p Just teasing.

Little Missy
08-27-15, 06:37 PM
Obtuse has always been one of my favourite words. Love it.

acdc01
08-27-15, 06:58 PM
Wow.

You guys complain about people bullying and making fun of you but now insult and make jokes of insults. That's really sad and frankly it's like when a bully insults someone and then his whole gang laughs and taunts the victim along with the bully justifying his actions.

I looked up the definition of obtuse, not just the synonyms:

obuse: stupid or unintelligent : not able to think clearly or to understand what is obvious or simple

mathematics : not ending in a sharp point : measuring between 90 degrees and 180 degrees

Of course she's not referring to the mathematical term. Don't tell me it isn't insulting.

Little Missy
08-27-15, 07:07 PM
Well, I know I'm a procrastinator, I'm socially weird and I can be utterly obtuse but I can say that never, ever would I resort to bullying anyone.

Have a good laugh. This is an ADD forum. Please don't be insulted. None of my comments were directed at any of you in any way. :)

namazu
08-27-15, 07:29 PM
Mod note: thread closed temporarily for review / clean-up.