View Full Version : dextroamphetamine vs. lisdexamphetamine


baical
07-14-15, 08:33 AM
I'm on Vyvanse, hoping to find out if anyone here has ever tried Dexedrine and how it is compared to Vyvanse. I'll start here.

sarahsweets
07-16-15, 07:59 AM
Not sure how to describe it. Judging from what you've inquired about in your previous posts I recommend you check bluelight.

baical
07-18-15, 06:09 AM
So I'm up to 60 mg of Vyvanse now, I think it's to my liking, just not sure yet if once tolerance builds it doesn't become as likable then. Is anyone here on high dose Vyvanse? I'd go up to 70 mg to see if it's the dose I need, if not I'd drop back down a bit. 60 is better than 50, for sure.

Hyperman87
08-03-15, 04:10 PM
To me, they are one & the same. Vyvanse is Dexedrine. It's just more expensive is all & it lasts longer than Dexedrine Immediate release.

Skyf@ll
08-16-15, 07:12 PM
To me, they are one & the same. Vyvanse is Dexedrine. It's just more expensive is all & it lasts longer than Dexedrine Immediate release.

That's not what I have heard the majority say.

There is so much lack of information on this forum about the drug, it needs to be stepped up. (elvanse/vyvanse)

I have a love/hate relationship with dex-it helps me, but the timing is a big issue.

Also caffeine renders me into hyper drive, I can't mix stim with stim and I love coffee...even the smell of it!

baical
08-17-15, 01:46 AM
I agree with you. I get deep into this and what actions the drug has, etc. Even some people here had no idea there was a 10 mg Vyvanse. It was my initial dose since I was scared to get on an amphetamine. LOL. Even my doc had no idea there was a 10 mg Vyvanse (which came out in March of 2015).

I doubt lisdexamphetamine and dextroamphetamine are one in the same considering lisdexamphetamine lacked the "addiction" potential than dextroamphetamine. I think the lysine attached to lisdexamphetamine is nothing more than so Shire Pharmaceuticals could patent Vyvanse considering it is technically a new molecule derived from dextroamphetamine.

Not sure which dex you speak of. I'm currently now on 70 mg Vyvanse. Much better than any of the lower dosages but I think I want something that is instant release because I can't wait 1-2 hours for something to kick in. Are you on time-release Dexedrine (spansule) or Vyvanse? I'd probably opt in for Dexedrine IR, but I know that fades out faster than a slow release (or so they say). Vyvanse 70 mg seem to only last about 5 hours, not as long as I thought it would be, as far as focus goes, but "wakefulness" does last long, not focus. Maybe it's not meant to be?

I like iced tea and chocolates as my caffeine source. I do not like coffee.

That's not what I have heard the majority say.

There is so much lack of information on this forum about the drug, it needs to be stepped up. (elvanse/vyvanse)

I have a love/hate relationship with dex-it helps me, but the timing is a big issue.

Also caffeine renders me into hyper drive, I can't mix stim with stim and I love coffee...even the smell of it!

SmashPotato
08-17-15, 04:10 AM
Dex IR is much better in my experience. I found Vyvanse to be very inconsistent with several peaks and valleys through out the day. It would be too strong at the beginning of the day causing anxiety/euphoria and too weak towards the end of the day. Also, there was usually a 2 hr gap in the afternoon where it would suddenly stop working and I would feel serious rebound.

All in all, it had a decent duration (about 9-12 hours), but when I consider the 2 hr gap, plus the fact it wasn't very effective towards the last few hours, it's not really worth it.

It would kick in pretty fast for me - max 1 hour. I suppose it depends how efficient your body is at absorbing it and metabolizing it. Eating a high fat meal will increase the time it takes for it to pass into the intestines where it is absorbed, unlike the IR which can be absorbed in the stomach as well. Splitting the dosage in half and taking it a couple of hours apart also helped smooth it out a bit through out the day.

I now take Dex IR x3 per day as I get 3 hour coverage per pill without any dips in effectiveness, plus no crash.

sarahsweets
08-17-15, 06:40 AM
For me, vyvanse never lasted the purported 12 hours. I got 8 hours max. The dex ir/spansules combo is the best for me.

Sickle
08-19-15, 10:29 PM
I didn't feel anything on them when I got the 30 free prescription and my doc had me on 3 of the 70 mg ones but I take Dexedrine immediate release and I was on 90 mg back (60 mg now) then. The Spansules arent great but okay. I took them all and just went back on the dexedrine and these were real 5 mg dexedrine but these are effective but had too many of them WAY too many it was 18 of them/day but they were the best and I take Zenzedi 20 mg 3 day now and they are good.

baical
08-20-15, 06:10 AM
Did the Dex IR take effect within a few minutes or what since it is IR? Vyvanse varies when it takes effect I guess depending what I ate? 1-2 hours, sometimes 3, sometimes I can't even tell if it's there until later.

I need to change from Vyvanse to something else, either Evekeo or Dex for now. So there is only 2 types of Dex (IR and spansule)?

Dex IR is much better in my experience. I found Vyvanse to be very inconsistent with several peaks and valleys through out the day. It would be too strong at the beginning of the day causing anxiety/euphoria and too weak towards the end of the day. Also, there was usually a 2 hr gap in the afternoon where it would suddenly stop working and I would feel serious rebound.

All in all, it had a decent duration (about 9-12 hours), but when I consider the 2 hr gap, plus the fact it wasn't very effective towards the last few hours, it's not really worth it.

It would kick in pretty fast for me - max 1 hour. I suppose it depends how efficient your body is at absorbing it and metabolizing it. Eating a high fat meal will increase the time it takes for it to pass into the intestines where it is absorbed, unlike the IR which can be absorbed in the stomach as well. Splitting the dosage in half and taking it a couple of hours apart also helped smooth it out a bit through out the day.

I now take Dex IR x3 per day as I get 3 hour coverage per pill without any dips in effectiveness, plus no crash.

baical
08-20-15, 06:13 AM
were you prescribed both ir and spansule? how are you taking them? I would assume spansule first since it is slow release then you'd boost it with an IR mid day?

For me, vyvanse never lasted the purported 12 hours. I got 8 hours max. The dex ir/spansules combo is the best for me.

baical
08-20-15, 06:32 AM
I would think Dexedrine would be more effective and cheaper than Vyvanse as well which is why people are able to use up to 18 x pills (90 mg) a day. I wonder if you were taking all 18 at once or split 3x daily?

Interesting info. about Zenzedi being the FIRST and ONLY:

2.5 mg, 7.5 mg, 15 mg, 20 mg, and 30 mg immediate-release dextroamphetamine tablets available.

Is Zenzedi new? I was only familiar with dextroamphetamine coming in 5, 10, and 15 mg dosages. But I guess I could go for Zenzedi 20 mg as my replacement for 70 mg Vyvanse (21 mg dextro equivalent I'd assume).

Is Zenzedi considered "generic" then considering other companies sell dextroamphetamine, unlike Vyvanse (only Shire has them, meaning no generics yet).

I didn't feel anything on them when I got the 30 free prescription and my doc had me on 3 of the 70 mg ones but I take Dexedrine immediate release and I was on 90 mg back (60 mg now) then. The Spansules arent great but okay. I took them all and just went back on the dexedrine and these were real 5 mg dexedrine but these are effective but had too many of them WAY too many it was 18 of them/day but they were the best and I take Zenzedi 20 mg 3 day now and they are good.

sarahsweets
08-20-15, 12:25 PM
I have a unique system due to digestive issues and spansules or xr never lasts as long as it should. My doctor wants me on 45mg a day so I take 3 10mg spansules with 5mg irs . so 1 10 and 1 5 three times a day.

baical
08-21-15, 01:17 AM
OK so three 10 mg spansules is 30 mg, 5 mg IR totals 35 mg?

So one 10 mg (assuming spansule) with 5 mg IRs 3x a day is 25 mg total? I'm confused.

Did you mean you take three 10 mg spansules with three 5 mg IRs? This should be right since it equals to 45 mg. So you take 1 spansule (10mg) with 1 IR (5mg) 3x a day? This should be right since this equals to 45mg daily total. Is this 4 hours apart for each dose or what? I would assume you'd take the 30 mg spansules first thing since the half life would be longer, then IR in between throughout the day?

sarahsweets
08-21-15, 04:08 AM
Yes I take 1 10mg and 1 5mg three times a day about 4 hours a part.

Waitingame
08-21-15, 09:19 PM
Dex IR is much better in my experience. I found Vyvanse to be very inconsistent with several peaks and valleys through out the day. It would be too strong at the beginning of the day causing anxiety/euphoria and too weak towards the end of the day. Also, there was usually a 2 hr gap in the afternoon where it would suddenly stop working and I would feel serious rebound.

All in all, it had a decent duration (about 9-12 hours), but when I consider the 2 hr gap, plus the fact it wasn't very effective towards the last few hours, it's not really worth it.



That was my experience, too. It seemed to have "surges" that would leave me feeling like I was in a runaway car without a steering wheel.

baical
08-24-15, 01:58 AM
dextroamphetamine ranked at 9.5 compared to Vyvanse at just 8.2:

http://www.drugs.com/condition/attention-deficit-disorder.html

I'm not sure how special Vyvanse really is but it is listed as the only drug for "Oppositional Defiant Disorder" and of course for the Binge Eating Disorder (BED) that was recently approved for its other uses. Not sure who's really lobbying for it but seems as if Vyvanse maker, Shire Pharmaceuticals, is really pushing Vyvanse and making it seem as if it's effective for a variety of conditions. My assumption is Shire is trying to make as much money for themselves and their stock holders since their stock is so expensive because Vyvanse is patented and has no generics til 2022/2023. I don't feel I lost my appetite with Vyvanse. How it got approved for BED is mind boggling. I'm happy for Shire though, but I have to be happy for my self so it's time to switch to something else. I would think what's effective for BED is really Desoxyn (methamphetamine) since it is an anorexiant as well and would be prescribed for obese people (if they know it even exist).

Since I think Zenzedi is as new as Evekeo (released 2015?) and is put out by the same company that makes Evekeo (Arbor Pharmaceuticals), i doubt my doctor knows much about it unless he looks in his drugs pocketbook, which I doubt Zenzedi would be in there since his book look old school. I don't want to get way ahead of him, but do I just ask him for Zenzedi instead of Vyvanse instead? He did mention that since I'm the one taking these medications, I would be the one to know how I feel on it so I can decide for my self what to drop or add or change, etc. I might just bring him a printed brochure of Zenzedi so he knows what doses they come in. Otherwise he might just give me Dexedrine. I'd prefer Zenzedi so I can up my dose when necessary.

I may start at a low dose when on Zenzedi since it is IR, not XR like Vyvanse. I was hoping to get on the equivalent of 70 mg Vyvanse (which is about 21 mg dex), but I think an IR dex would be a bit much so is it best to start at 10 mg?

Sickle
08-28-15, 09:10 PM
I would think Dexedrine would be more effective and cheaper than Vyvanse as well which is why people are able to use up to 18 x pills (90 mg) a day. I wonder if you were taking all 18 at once or split 3x daily?

Interesting info. about Zenzedi being the FIRST and ONLY:

2.5 mg, 7.5 mg, 15 mg, 20 mg, and 30 mg immediate-release dextroamphetamine tablets available.

Is Zenzedi new? I was only familiar with dextroamphetamine coming in 5, 10, and 15 mg dosages. But I guess I could go for Zenzedi 20 mg as my replacement for 70 mg Vyvanse (21 mg dextro equivalent I'd assume).

Is Zenzedi considered "generic" then considering other companies sell dextroamphetamine, unlike Vyvanse (only Shire has them, meaning no generics yet).

My insurance only covers the 5 and 10 mg tabs and the Corepharma works great actually which is odd because their Adderall is horrible. But I like Barr Adderall and Barr Dexedrine is garbage. I take it 3 times a day with this 20 mg and I do okay with it. Barr I need 90 mg/day and Mallinckrodt 80 mg because they didn't last. I was on Zenzedi 30 mg tabs but I couldn't find anywhere where they were in stock. Those are good. One of them a couple times a day was fairly decent. It made me not be hungry much. So I dosed it different and it is potent and works great. I used to take real dexedrine back then. I took 12 of the 5 mg brand tablets and they were cheap. I also got 3 15 mg Spansules and the brand ones are great, I know Corepharma makes the brand name Spansules so maybe that is why these ones work that way.

Zenzedi is a generic drug in 5 mg and 10 mg tablets and they are also sold under a generic branch of the company, Wilshire and those were both great. The 2.5, 7.5, 15, 20, 30 are brand and the 5 mg tablet is the biggest one. The 30's were small and yellow. However, I am okay with the corepharma. They are very effective. I am impressed too. Vyvanse was just appetite loss for me. I grew up on Dexedrine though so maybe that is the case.

baical
09-01-15, 06:00 AM
Sickle, I just want to be clear here; so both 5 mg and 10 mg Zenzedi are generic (form and price wise) but any other doses becomes "brand"? I wonder why there is no 15 mg generic Zenzedi considering the original Dexedrine came in 5, 10, and 15 mg. I would assume the patent for those doses are expired. I think the way Zenzedi makers make more money by selling other doses as "brand" is because no one else makes the other doses Zenzedi comes in (2.5, 7.5, 20, 30, etc.). Would 5 and 10 mg Zenzedi (generics) be priced as low as other generic dextroamphetamines? If my doc writes me a prescription for dextroamphetamine "generic" what brand should I expect to get? Must I opt for Zenzedi in case I need to go all the way to 30 mg? Would I be getting Corepharma generics? Which other makers make dextroamphetamine? Which ones to avoid?

Here's another Vyvanse experience I've had in the past 2 days; yesterday I woke up late so I decided I'd just take a 20 mg Vyvanse since I still have some leftover ones and skipped the 70 mg so I'd be able to fall asleep later on. I didn't feel much on 20 mg the way I did when I first started with low doses. I would assume "tolerance" is the culprit here. The day after this I took 70 mg and felt motivated. Something about skipping a dose (or in this case, dropping doses by several mg) makes it seem as if the drug becomes "renewed" in the body but after that initial dose it becomes subtle (i.e. inconsistent, because it isn't stable as in "daily"). I'm hoping dexedrine isn't like this at all. I'm hoping dexedrine is as potent as with each daily dose that I could actually feel the focus, energy, and motivation the way the initial Vyvanse dose gave me (but Vyvanse seem to fade out or become subtle, and anything subtle just means if you can't feel it working, then focus and motivation to get things done just isn't as strong IMO).

sarahsweets
09-01-15, 06:06 AM
You need to stop basing the effectiveness of the medication based on whether you feel it or not.

Sickle, I just want to be clear here; so both 5 mg and 10 mg Zenzedi are generic (form and price wise) but any other doses becomes "brand"? I wonder why there is no 15 mg generic Zenzedi considering the original Dexedrine came in 5, 10, and 15 mg. I would assume the patent for those doses are expired. I think the way Zenzedi makers make more money by selling other doses as "brand" is because no one else makes the other doses Zenzedi comes in (2.5, 7.5, 20, 30, etc.). Would 5 and 10 mg Zenzedi (generics) be priced as low as other generic dextroamphetamines? If my doc writes me a prescription for dextroamphetamine "generic" what brand should I expect to get? Must I opt for Zenzedi in case I need to go all the way to 30 mg? Would I be getting Corepharma generics? Which other makers make dextroamphetamine? Which ones to avoid?

Here's another Vyvanse experience I've had in the past 2 days; yesterday I woke up late so I decided I'd just take a 20 mg Vyvanse since I still have some leftover ones and skipped the 70 mg so I'd be able to fall asleep later on. I didn't feel much on 20 mg the way I did when I first started with low doses. I would assume "tolerance" is the culprit here. The day after this I took 70 mg and felt motivated. Something about skipping a dose (or in this case, dropping doses by several mg) makes it seem as if the drug becomes "renewed" in the body but after that initial dose it becomes subtle (i.e. inconsistent, because it isn't stable as in "daily"). I'm hoping dexedrine isn't like this at all. I'm hoping dexedrine is as potent as with each daily dose that I could actually feel the focus, energy, and motivation the way the initial Vyvanse dose gave me (but Vyvanse seem to fade out or become subtle, and anything subtle just means if you can't feel it working, then focus and motivation to get things done just isn't as strong IMO).

aeon
09-01-15, 09:56 AM
I would assume "tolerance" is the culprit here.

You would assume incorrectly. The neuropharmacology does not bear this out.

That said, expectation and external situation do mean a lot.

Efficacy of treatment is based on reduction of negative impact of clinical symptomology, as achieved by titration and careful monitoring, not by the degree to which a given med gives rise to a particular feeling, even those we might label positively, or seek out, or judge in alignment with treatment goals.

Mistaking the two can be the difference between well-being and self-betrayal.


cheers,
Ian

baical
09-02-15, 09:15 AM
OK, but "reduction of negative impact of clinical symptomology" is a form of "feeling" that such "symptoms" that I feel isn't as "reduced" as I thought it would be on a max dosage of Vyvanse (70 mg). I even told my old doctor that usually the first dose after I had stopped taking Vyvanse for a day and once for atleast a close to a week that the drug "feels" more effective. After that initial dose it becomes subtle and I'm back to procrastinating. He said this is called "tolerance". Just saying.

You would assume incorrectly. The neuropharmacology does not bear this out.

That said, expectation and external situation do mean a lot.

Efficacy of treatment is based on reduction of negative impact of clinical symptomology, as achieved by titration and careful monitoring, not by the degree to which a given med gives rise to a particular feeling, even those we might label positively, or seek out, or judge in alignment with treatment goals.

Mistaking the two can be the difference between well-being and self-betrayal.


cheers,
Ian

baical
09-02-15, 09:19 AM
Some people are allowed to acknowledge that certain generics "feels" ineffective than others. I would think it's wise to know if one "feels" their meds and if it's working or not. I wouldn't take aspirin for pain if I could still feel pain. I'd change my dose or change the drug. Just saying. I don't find Vyvanse to be effective.

With certain type of drugs you have to base its effectiveness by "feeling" it's working, if not change the dose or the drug. Antibiotics the exception (for me at least).

You need to stop basing the effectiveness of the medication based on whether you feel it or not.

Greyhound1
09-02-15, 11:04 PM
Some people are allowed to acknowledge that certain generics "feels" ineffective than others. I would think it's wise to know if one "feels" their meds and if it's working or not. I wouldn't take aspirin for pain if I could still feel pain. I'd change my dose or change the drug. Just saying. I don't find Vyvanse to be effective.

With certain type of drugs you have to base its effectiveness by "feeling" it's working, if not change the dose or the drug. Antibiotics the exception (for me at least).

Hey baical,
I think it may just be a matter of semantics. I think the word "feeling" when used with stimulants sounds like you mean physical or euphoric feeling.

I think we all have to have a feeling about whether our medication is working or not. This feeling should be based on our ability to accomplish more, struggle a little less and maybe improve on our co-morbid conditions.

When it comes to actual physical and emotional feelings mine are only felt when my dose is off. Too little, I get anxiety and my mind races. If I take too much, I get irritable, heart palpitations sometimes and I zone out then anxiety and fatigue follows the crash.

I think when meds. are working properly I only feel them in the sense of my ability to do a little more or make less mistakes. My co-morbids greatly quiet down and I "feel" what I would like to call, normal for me, if that makes sense.

Cheers

aeon
09-03-15, 01:52 PM
Yes, my use of “feeling” in this context is related to drug-induced experiences that reinforce use, up to and including euphoria, all of which are outside the clinical efficacy focus of ADHD treatment.

In self-assessment of efficacy of treatment, or “results,” I would tend to use words like “think,” and “sense,” in a deliberate way so as to avoid the use of “feels.” In the context of clinical prescriptive use of amphetamines, I think it a useful dichotomy.


cheers,
Ian

baical
09-08-15, 04:15 AM
I see. Wouldn't you agree that "euphoria" does bring forth "confidence", something that I think and my doc thinks is lacking in ADHD patients. I was told that Vyvanse would boost my confidence up a bit (and it did a bit for as long as it lasted). It's another code word for euphoria, really. Doc just didn't want to use that word.

Yes, my use of “feeling” in this context is related to drug-induced experiences that reinforce use, up to and including euphoria, all of which are outside the clinical efficacy focus of ADHD treatment.

In self-assessment of efficacy of treatment, or “results,” I would tend to use words like “think,” and “sense,” in a deliberate way so as to avoid the use of “feels.” In the context of clinical prescriptive use of amphetamines, I think it a useful dichotomy.


cheers,
Ian

baical
09-08-15, 04:29 AM
So I finally am moving on to Dexedrine. I wanted the IR but I was given to start with a 5 mg spansule, twice a day. Is this a good start? I'd think it is since spansule is intermediate release not IR or slow release. I was going to be given Adderall XR, but I passed on it, for reasons I heard about the "levo" isomer that's in it and Evekeo as well. I'm surprised the new doc had to open his nurse's drug hand book to see how Dexedrine is prescribed, etc. I don't really expect anyone to know every drug there is for every conditions there is so I forgive him.

I wanted the Dexedrine IR 3x daily at 5 mg every 4 hours. The new doc does not even know anything about Zenzedi. He mentioned that usually new meds are a pain to prescribe because something to do with going to the state, etc. etc. I don't know what he means by that. English is his second language so communication can be awkward. But I think he meant that there's more process to be done when being prescribed a new drug in the case of Evekeo and Zenzedi? I don't know how that is. I would think the same scenario would be likewise if one is to be prescribed Desoxyn? Not as easy as writing a prescription but more process involved?

Also, the sheet he has of listed ADHD medications clearly is outdated. It didn't list Evekeo or Desoxyn. He wanted to give me the Adderall because he said "it is the most popular one around". Gee, I wonder how it became so popular is it because the pharma giant is PUSHING it? Kinda like when major music record labels would push the next pop fad into the mainstream, etc. then it becomes popular. I think same reason why Vyvanse is as popular as well since it is new and I think it is generally what is prescribed "first" as a starter amphetamine, if I'm not mistaken.

aeon
09-08-15, 04:42 AM
baical: answer this one question first, if you will, and then I can answer a few of your questions.

How are you paying for your meds, if at all. Private insurance, public insurance, Medicaid, etc.?

baical
09-08-15, 04:47 AM
My prescription only said "Dexedrine Spansule". I would assume this will be brand, not generic but I think my insurance generally will find the cheapest version of it (generic). I hope I get the better generic form since there is such a thing, right? I wonder how some people get the better generic and others do not? Does it vary because of which pharmacy you bought it from or what? Do each pharmacy have some type of deal with certain drug makers? Let's say Walgreens pharmacy get the best generics, while CVS pharmacy do not. Is that how it goes? Like certain outlets have exclusive products or items.

My insurance only covers the 5 and 10 mg tabs and the Corepharma works great actually which is odd because their Adderall is horrible. But I like Barr Adderall and Barr Dexedrine is garbage. I take it 3 times a day with this 20 mg and I do okay with it. Barr I need 90 mg/day and Mallinckrodt 80 mg because they didn't last. I was on Zenzedi 30 mg tabs but I couldn't find anywhere where they were in stock. Those are good. One of them a couple times a day was fairly decent. It made me not be hungry much. So I dosed it different and it is potent and works great. I used to take real dexedrine back then. I took 12 of the 5 mg brand tablets and they were cheap. I also got 3 15 mg Spansules and the brand ones are great, I know Corepharma makes the brand name Spansules so maybe that is why these ones work that way.

Zenzedi is a generic drug in 5 mg and 10 mg tablets and they are also sold under a generic branch of the company, Wilshire and those were both great. The 2.5, 7.5, 15, 20, 30 are brand and the 5 mg tablet is the biggest one. The 30's were small and yellow. However, I am okay with the corepharma. They are very effective. I am impressed too. Vyvanse was just appetite loss for me. I grew up on Dexedrine though so maybe that is the case.

baical
09-08-15, 04:54 AM
Medicaid. :giggle:

baical: answer this one question first, if you will, and then I can answer a few of your questions.

How are you paying for your meds, if at all. Private insurance, public insurance, Medicaid, etc.?

aeon
09-08-15, 05:24 AM
OK, I thought that might be the case. Me too. :D

Brand drugs like Evekeo and Zenzedi are not going to be covered by Medicaid. Medicaid likes to stay with the tried-and-true drugs that have expired patents. Not because of any sneaky conspiracy, but because drugs that have expired patents are inexpensive to the public sector taxpayer, and said taxpayer rightfully insists upon things being cheap as possible.

Generic dextromethamphetamine is caught up in politics that get heated, so Medicaid doesn’t go there either.

Those same politics result in Vyvance being on the list of “OK” meds.

That all said, dextroamphetamine, both IR and spansule (Dexedrine), are on the list of “OK” meds. :yes:

Your doctor will have to indicate that a generic substitution is OK, and in turn, you will get a generic form of Dexedrine. At least that is my understanding of things.

I’ve had 3 different brandings of dextroamphetamine spansule: Barr, Mallinckrodt, and Amedra (this one being actual brand Dexedrine). Are there differences in my experience? Maybe. If so, they are too small to worry about. Again, in my experience.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
10-04-15, 05:48 AM
My doctor had just prescribed me Dexedrine Spansule 5 mg, twice a day. There had been issues in the past month. First, I am being told by my regular pharmacy that it is on backorder from the manufacturer. I had asked if any Dexedrine is even available, they said no. My regular pharmacy is Walgreens. My option here is to shop around physically because I tried calling various pharmacies and they said they are not allowed to reveal what drugs they have available especially if it is a controlled one. My question here is what pharmacy would generally be more reliable than Walgreens? Good thing I had extra Vyvanse left since I wasn't able to get the Dexedrine filled up for the past month due to reasons above plus a mistake on the pharmacist side (they didn't grab my prescription to order the drug and when I came back 2 weeks later, the prescription was said to be non process-able because there seem to be a rule that any controlled drug prescription older than 10 days will not get processed when on Medicaid?). I could have walked back in to my doctor's office and asked for a new one but since my next appointment was about 2 weeks coming I just waited. Now that I have a new prescription, which pharmacy would have Dexedrine Spansule? Are those hospital pharmacies usually more reliable than standalone pharmacies like Walgreens? I had tried 1 Rite Aid pharmacy and they also do not carry it and said it was on backorder from the manufacturer (the brand Dexedrine). Tried 1 CVS as well. I can't be driving around just to find this stuff, I feel like a crack head. LOL. Since my prescription says Dexedrine Spansule, could the pharmacy give me the generic form as well if they have it instead of the brand or this means I'm only allowed the brand no matter what? I'm not sure why it's been a month and still the makers of Dexedrine Spansule (brand) still aren't stocking the pharmacy that had ordered it for me.

Another question about Dexedrine that made me and the pharmacist confused; how many release forms of Dexedrine are there? I was told there's only 2: IR and CR. I thought "Spansule" would be the 3rd release form being "intermediate" (i.e. neither IR instant release and neither CR controlled release). It is in between ("intermediate").

My doctor also mentioned the similarities between Dexedrine and Desoxyn, but I'll ask this question on the Desoxyn thread I am in.

I also asked my doctor if Dexedrine is a good antidepressant because I told him this weather change happening is making me depressed, he said Dexedrine is OK for it and was also prescribed for it. I wonder why Vyvanse isn't exactly as antidepressant as Dexedrine? I'm not too depressed but I'd like to not have this weather change affect me, I think it does and I am on Vyvanse. I shall report back here once I try Dexedrine.

sarahsweets
10-04-15, 07:22 AM
My question here is what pharmacy would generally be more reliable than Walgreens?

I use a mom and pop pharmacy and have been on dex again for 6 months and never had an issue getting it.


Another question about Dexedrine that made me and the pharmacist confused; how many release forms of Dexedrine are there? I was told there's only 2: IR and CR. I thought "Spansule" would be the 3rd release form being "intermediate" (i.e. neither IR instant release and neither CR controlled release). It is in between ("intermediate").
There only two forms of dexedrine. There is dexedrine (which is the ir) and dexedrine spanules. The brand name used to be called dextrostat as far as I know and I dont believe there is a brand name anymore because its been around so long. The dexedrine is just that- its not called dexedrine IR. And the spansules are dexedrine spanules. There is not CR or xr. Of course these go by their generic name. I could be wrong about their not being a brand but thats what I remember from the old days, about 7 years ago.

Dexedrine is amphetamine and desoyxn is methamphetamine but I forget the exact differences.
I also asked my doctor if Dexedrine is a good antidepressant because I told him this weather change happening is making me depressed, he said Dexedrine is OK for it and was also prescribed for it. I wonder why Vyvanse isn't exactly as antidepressant as Dexedrine? I'm not too depressed but I'd like to not have this weather change affect me, I think it does and I am on Vyvanse. I shall report back here once I try Dexedrine.

All stimulants have the potential to be antidepressants. In fact they are used off label in treatment resistant depression. I would guess that vyvanse would also be considered anti-depressant-like I dont know why your doctor would make a distinction.
RE: you not being able to fill your rx after 10 days...I would check that with medicaid and not rely on the pharmacy. The law is that controlled rx's are good for 30 days from the date they are written.

baical
10-05-15, 01:48 AM
Gotta look for those mom and pop pharmacies. I don't get why they would have something the major companies like Walgreens don't even have.

Oh by the way, it wasn't my doctor that made a distinction about Dexedrine being more antidepressant than Vyvanse, it was just that Dexedrine is more known for that from what the ads I posted on Dexedrine, considering it had a history of being prescribe for it in the old days and Vyvanse is only indicated for ADHD and BED (binge eating disorder). So Vyvanse being new and lacking history of being an antidepressant made me assume Dexedrine would be a better antidepressant than Vyvanse.

To clarify; "amphetamine" is racemic, meaning 50/50 split: levotory amphetamine and dextrotory amphetamine (which Evekeo is, and Benzedrine was the first one that came out in the 30's or so). Dexedrine is just dextrotory amphetamine, so is Vyvanse (but with lysine attached due to patents and politics). Desoxyn is methylated version of dextrotory amphetamine, which makes it stronger due to the methyl attached to it. Adderall is not quite "racemic" because it is 75/25 (75% dextrotory amphetamine and 25% levotory amphetamine). Dextrotory is the right hand and levotory is the left hand.

baical
10-07-15, 03:26 AM
I'm not sure if the pharmacy even know what they are talking about. They said there is a brand Dexedrine Spansule. So if my prescription says Dexedrine Spansule, would that mean I am being prescribed the brand or can they give me a generic form as well?

Now since spansule is an extended release, this won't be very Vyvanse-like, right? Since I am prescribed 5 mg twice daily, I'm assuming it's taken every 6-8 hours per dose per day? Hopefully it's effective enough not to take the second dose. I still haven't gotten it. The Giant pharmacy I had called surprisingly decided to order it for me. I'm not sure if they have it but I shall find out once I walk in there. The mom and pop pharmacy I had gone to said something that I must be their regular customer with another prescription for them to dispatch one that is a controlled drug. Strange. Lots of other pharmacies have said they haven't seen Dexedrine in a while as if to say everyone is on the Vyvanse and Adderall train. Evekeo is still hard to find according to the Evekeo site which is why they provided a 1800 number for customers with a prescription to call to see which local pharmacy has Evekeo.

aeon
10-07-15, 04:15 AM
I'm not sure if the pharmacy even know what they are talking about. They said there is a brand Dexedrine Spansule.

Yes, made by Amedra Pharmaceutical. They own, and manufacture, the Dexedrine brand of controlled-release dextroamphetamine sulfate.

So if my prescription says Dexedrine Spansule, would that mean I am being prescribed the brand or can they give me a generic form as well?

I’m not totally sure of the law in this regard, but my prescriptions are explicit about “Dexedrine (or generic equivalent).”

Now since spansule is an extended release, this won't be very Vyvanse-like, right?

The pharmacokinetics of the Dexedrine spansule are not so different, i.e., slower, than the IR formulations of dextroamphetamine sulfate, so no, they are not like Vyvance in terms of being slow-onset, extended release.

Now since spansule is an extended release, this won't be very Vyvanse-like, right? Since I am prescribed 5 mg twice daily, I'm assuming it's taken every 6-8 hours per dose per day? Hopefully it's effective enough not to take the second dose.

That depends upon your doctor’s prescription and how you respond.

I take 60mg Dexedrine (generic) daily...30mg at the start of the day, and then 30mg four hours later.

I still haven't gotten it. The Giant pharmacy I had called surprisingly decided to order it for me. I'm not sure if they have it but I shall find out once I walk in there. The mom and pop pharmacy I had gone to said something that I must be their regular customer with another prescription for them to dispatch one that is a controlled drug. Strange. Lots of other pharmacies have said they haven't seen Dexedrine in a while as if to say everyone is on the Vyvanse and Adderall train. Evekeo is still hard to find according to the Evekeo site which is why they provided a 1800 number for customers with a prescription to call to see which local pharmacy has Evekeo.

I don’t know what to tell you. Dexedrine (generic) is easy to find here in Minnesota at any of the major drug store chains, though they order different brands among them.

It could be that the 5mg spansule is not as common as the 15mg spansule.


cheers,
Ian

sarahsweets
10-07-15, 04:18 AM
I'm not sure if the pharmacy even know what they are talking about. They said there is a brand Dexedrine Spansule. So if my prescription says Dexedrine Spansule, would that mean I am being prescribed the brand or can they give me a generic form as well?
I guess maybe I have the info backwards. As far as getting the generic, most pharmacies automatically give you the generic due to insurance companies wanting a cheaper drug.

Now since spansule is an extended release, this won't be very Vyvanse-like, right? Since I am prescribed 5 mg twice daily, I'm assuming it's taken every 6-8 hours per dose per day? Hopefully it's effective enough not to take the second dose.
Well the dex lasts me like 6 hours or so. I take the spansule and ir three times a day. Vyvanse is purportedly supposed to last 12 hours but many people say it doesnt. Vyvanse takes longer to work because it begins to work in the gut, not the bloodstream so you usually have to eat something to begin digestion. If you need more than 8 hours of coverage during the day, you will need more than one dose of the dex.

baical
10-07-15, 04:28 AM
how many companies are putting out Dexedrine? I'm just curious. My guess is 3? My doc mentioned the similarities of Dexedrine with Desoxyn (stronger) but I think there is only 1 company that has it and may be harder to find than Dexedrine (in my case).

This is the company that has Desoxyn:

http://recordatirarediseases.com/products

Lundbeck and Mylan seem to not make Desoxyn anymore. I e-mailed both, Lundbeck pointed me to the company above. I'm waiting for Mylan's response.

I am in Maryland. I would think this state is more advanced when it comes to these meds due to Johns Hopkins Hospital yet I have a hard time finding it. Pharmacies said they can't hold on to the prescription when they don't have the drug available because it is a controlled one. I really hope today Giant won't give me the run around since my prescription says Dexedrine Spansule and they said the brand is on back order but they said they ordered the generic so I'm hoping they'd give me whatever they have. I would assume my prescription means either or (brand or generic), right? Since it's common sense.

Yes, made by Amedra Pharmaceutical. They own, and manufacture, the Dexedrine brand of controlled-release dextroamphetamine sulfate.



I’m not totally sure of the law in this regard, but my prescriptions are explicit about “Dexedrine (or generic equivalent).”



The pharmacokinetics of the Dexedrine spansule are not so different, i.e., slower, than the IR formulations of dextroamphetamine sulfate, so no, they are not like Vyvance in terms of being slow-onset, extended release.



That depends upon your doctor’s prescription and how you respond.

I take 60mg Dexedrine (generic) daily...30mg at the start of the day, and then 30mg four hours later.



I don’t know what to tell you. Dexedrine (generic) is easy to find here in Minnesota at any of the major drug store chains, though they order different brands among them.

It could be that the 5mg spansule is not as common as the 15mg spansule.


cheers,
Ian

aeon
10-08-15, 11:51 AM
how many companies are putting out Dexedrine? I'm just curious. My guess is 3?

There are four:


Amedra (brand)
Barr (generic)
Mallinckrodt (generic)
Actavis (generic)


I have had Amedra once (brown and clear spansule, orange beads), Mallinckrodt a half-dozen times (white capsule with pink imprint, never opened one up to see the beads), and the rest of the time, Barr (brown and clear spansule, white beads). I have never seen or had Actavis-manufactured spansules.

These have all been for the 15mg spansule.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
10-09-15, 05:08 AM
Aeon, thanks for the info.

Now I know what's really going on here; I'm on Medicaid. Medicaid only pays for brand Dexedrine. The pharmacies I've been had just informed me. Giant has the generic but since my insurance do not cover for it, I was going to be put on Adderall but I told my doctor I'll go back on Vyvanse again, this time lower dose, from 70mg (max dose), to 60 mg. My reason for not wanting to try Adderall is due to it causing more physical side effects. I know little about Adderall regarding what dose they come in but I may be looking into it. Some say to avoid XR. I'll probably ask around here what dose they come in and if it's OK for me to start at the lowest possible dose it come in. I'd guess 5 mg?

Anyway, the Giant pharmacy people have told me that since Medicaid does not cover generic Dexedrine, only brand, and the brand at the dose I have been prescribed is 5 mg (which they said is on back order or discontinued?) that's why I had a hard time getting it. Giant said 10mg and 15 mg are still made in brand but that's not the dose I was prescribed. They do not have it in stock but can get it. I guess I should talk to my doctor about this issue if he could give me 10 mg Dexedrine Spansule to start with? Maybe 5 mg was useless that no one bought it that it was discontinued? It had been on "back order" since last month that no wonder I can't get it.

Aeon, since you are also on Medicaid, do you have any idea if Desoxyn would be covered? Do I call Medicaid to find out?

The pharmacy gave me a lot of run around today. First they told me to call my insurance to "override" it so I can get the Dexedrine generic since the brand is not available/no longer made in the dose I'm prescribed (5 mg), if that's even true at all. I called the insurance, they told me to call my doctor to authorize it. The doctor should be the one to authorize it after he gets an overrides from the insurance (?), etc. according to the insurance customer service. The pharmacy told me to call the insurance, etc. so I guess they got it backwards so I told the pharmacy. The pharmacy called the doctor but I'm not sure if the doctor want to go through all that hassle so I was going to be given Adderall but I decided to go back to Vyvanse instead.

aeon
10-09-15, 09:48 AM
Medicaid covers generic...it does not cover brand (for spansule dextroamphetamine sulfate). Of this I am 100% certain. (Makes sense...they want to be frugal with the taxpayer dollar).

Medicaid does not cover any form of dextromethamphetamine. They cover dextroamphetamine and mixed amphetamine salts, as well as Vyvanse. They also cover racemic and dextrorotary methylphenidate formulations and delivery systems.

Pharmacies don’t want to order 5mg spansules. If they do, you will end up titrating and they get stuck with a bottle of spansules they are not likely to sell, in part because of the size, in part because the majority focus is on other meds.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
10-10-15, 01:02 AM
Aeon, that's not the info. I got from Giant and Walgreens. Medicaid does NOT cover generic Dexedrine Spansule. They told me Medicaid has a deal with the "brand" only but not generic. They would not dispatch me the generic 5 mg Dexedrine Spansule due to this fact. The brand (5 mg) is on back order/or discontinued. I would assume that it's still cheaper due to the "deal" they have with each other? Maybe this varies by state what's covered or not?

The bottle of generic they had ordered for me was a 90 pill bottle, sadly they could not dispatch it to me due to the explanation I have above. My prescription is 5 mg Dexedrine Spansule, 60 pills, taken twice daily. They have the 10 mg version but only 19 pills was left. I wonder why that is? Maybe someone decided to take some home? They could order some 10 mg brand for me. The brand is said to be made by Impaxx? Could be the manufacturer for Amedra? So if I do get prescribed 10 mg next time, would that be once a day instead of taking 5 mg twice daily or is this up to the doctor? I understand someone here takes 15 mg twice daily?

Aeon, considering Desoxyn is only made by 1 company and is "brand", I would assume it should be covered by Medicaid, if considering Desoxyn could be my "last resort"?

Medicaid covers generic...it does not cover brand (for spansule dextroamphetamine sulfate). Of this I am 100% certain. (Makes sense...they want to be frugal with the taxpayer dollar).

Medicaid does not cover any form of dextromethamphetamine. They cover dextroamphetamine and mixed amphetamine salts, as well as Vyvanse. They also cover racemic and dextrorotary methylphenidate formulations and delivery systems.

Pharmacies don’t want to order 5mg spansules. If they do, you will end up titrating and they get stuck with a bottle of spansules they are not likely to sell, in part because of the size, in part because the majority focus is on other meds.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
10-10-15, 03:59 AM
Aeon, is Dexedrine IR covered by Medicaid? I know Zenzedi isn't, so I'm curious what other IRs are covered and what dosages do IRs come in? Outside of Zenzedi, I think the IRs come in same dosages as the spansules.

aeon
10-11-15, 02:10 AM
I guess things are different in your state because they handle Medicaid administration and distribution differently.

Here in Minnesota, generic formulations of Dexedrine are definitely covered. Generic IR dextroamphetamine sulfate is covered, but not branded versions.

Dextromethamphetamine sulfate is covered for those with a diagnosis of narcolepsy, but not for ADHD.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
10-11-15, 07:27 AM
I'm curious since Vyvanse and Dexedrine Spansule are extended release, and since Vyvanse is known to be slow-release (take 1-2 hours for it to kick in), does that mean Dexedrine Spansule is also "slow release"? Since it isn't an IR, I would assume it is "slow release" like Vyvanse or does Dexedrine Spansule actually do "kick in" in minutes rather than 1-2 hours like Vyvanse is known for.

baical
10-16-15, 01:36 AM
Aeon, here's another situation; some days I sleep late so I wake up late, instead of me taking a dose of Vyvanse, I skip it because waking up late and taking Vyvanse, might keep me way up that I do not stay on schedule. Let's say my usual wake up time is 5 a.m. but since I stayed up late and woke up late around 10 a.m. for me to take Vyvanse 5 hours late might keep me up another 5 hours than usual. I'm thinking I should have something that's quick release and something that won't last as long as Vyvanse. Should I be looking into Dexedrine and or Adderall IRs? Or maybe a sleeping pill if I were to take Vyvanse "late"?

aeon
10-16-15, 03:10 AM
If you aren’t going to set alarms and try and keep a regular schedule, I’d go for an OTC “sleeping pill” like diphenhydramine HCL (Benadryl), or talk to your doctor about it.

For some people, IR meds might be a solution, but in general, dextroamphetamine and mixed amphetamine salts are not going to be a fix for disruptions in the wake-sleep cycle resulting from a lack of sleep hygiene.

Just because amphetamine’s effectiveness in addressing ADHD has ended, it doesn’t necessarily mean its wakefulness-promoting activity has, so IR is not the answer.

You could also try keeping your med right by your bed so you could wake lightly, take it, and go back to sleep. Vyvance might let you do that with greater ease than other amphetamine meds.


cheers,
Ian

baical
10-17-15, 07:20 AM
Thanks Aeon! Great advice. I just found out my medicaid covers all amphetamines in the market except for Evekeo, so yeah that includes Desoxyn being covered.

baical
10-27-15, 05:31 AM
Aeon, I just want to make sure again if Medicaid covers Dex IR or not? Since in my state only brand dex is covered, not generic, is there even a brand Dex IR that would be covered by Medicaid? Considering someone here said Zenzedi isn't covered.

aeon
10-27-15, 05:53 AM
It is covered here in MN.

Dunno what you would get...prob not Amedra Dexedrine 5mg tablet! :p

I’ve never had IR...only Dexedrine CR and Vyvance.


Good Luck,
Ian

baical
10-28-15, 04:50 AM
So Amedra is the ONLY one that carries brand then? Amedra has no IR, right?

Dex CR is equivalent to Spansules then?

aeon
10-28-15, 04:01 PM
Amedra Pharm currently owns the Dexedrine brand.

They make the Dexedrine CR formulation in 5, 10, and 15mg spansules.

They made, and may still make, a Dexedrine tablet that was/is 5mg IR. There may be other sizes. I don’t have any other information at this time.

Generic formulations of Dexedrine CR are available from Barr, Mallinckrodt, and...I forget, Wilshire perhaps.

I’ve had Amedra (once), Mallinckrodt (a half-dozen times), and Barr (dozens of times).


Cheers,
Ian

baical
10-29-15, 08:14 AM
Aeon,

I must have been confused. I think medicaid does cover brand and generic but I will find out today. When I had that Dexedrine Spansule 5 mg prescription but couldn't get it because I was told my insurance does not cover generic but only brand and the 5 mg brand is on back order/no longer made (?), I only showed the pharmacy my MCO card, not the Medicaid card, I was assuming since both had the same member ID #, I would assume me showing just the MCO card, they'd figure it out. In other words, my MCO card does not cover all, but Medicaid perhaps may cover just about anything. That's why there was some confusion, even my doctor found it strange that brand is covered, but not generic when it should always be the other way around. I did get a new 10 mg Dexedrine Spansule prescription since the 5 mg (brand) is still on back order. Giant is able to get the 10 mg "brand" but not the 5 mg. I could have gotten that 5 mg 2 months ago had I known I need to show my medicaid card.

Another funny thing today at Walgreens was that the actual pharmacist (woman with white coat on) was telling me there is no such thing as a 10 mg Dexedrine Spansule, only 5 mg! We were both going back and forth! What does this tell all of us? They all can be clueless sometimes, like my doc! This has been my argument with most of my threads! I told the pharmacist to google it! She also said that Dexedrine only comes in tablets and capsules only and ONLY in 5 mg dosage! She's saying there's no such thing as "spansule" and it had to be some kind of "special" type of "pill". I told her it's the "capsule" version she just mentioned! Right? The other form is a tablet which should be the "IR", right?

sarahsweets
10-29-15, 08:23 AM
How ridiculous of her to not know something very basic about dex. The spansules come in 5 10 and 15's I believe and they are the capsules. The ir are tablets.

aeon
10-29-15, 11:20 AM
All I know is that I never want to leave Minnesota.

My doctor is great, I never get any flak from pharmacists and they are all well-informed, and nearly every pharmacy has Dex spansules in stock so no need to hop around town to fill a script.

baical
10-30-15, 02:24 AM
OK so I had to hop around 5 different pharmacies and only Giant will special order it which takes about a day for it to come. Shoppers pharmacy said they won't order the 5's and 10's because the ones they have filled before were only 15 mg. Crazy.

I called up Amedra pharmaceuticals and they said the 5 mg are now available. Maybe it always was but the pharmacies around here aren't competent. I'm not sure why considering I live in the Johns Hopkins "territory".

Also, regarding what medicaid covers, the pharmacist for "33 years" (according to him) said I didn't know what I was talking about regarding if generic is covered under medicaid. I told him I was just on the phone with medicaid customer service and they said yes generic is covered, brand is the one that needs a Dr's authorization as to explain why the need for "brand" (as if there HAD to be a difference in effect? Maybe?). So what I'm getting from Giant is a 10 mg Dexedrine Spansule "brand" since that's what my insurance covers, not generic. OK. I'm curious if 10 mg is a good starting dose considering most have to titrate to 15 mg or higher and considering I was up to 70 mg Vyvanse? Also, if there much difference between IR vs. Spansule in terms of pharmacological or it's nothing more than short acting vs. long acting?

I hope Dexedrine is a better one compared to Vyvanse. I do not think Vyvanse has antidepressant properties (never had it as indication) since this fall weather seem to be getting to me as seasonal affective disorder.

baical
10-30-15, 03:26 AM
I just looked it up that Dexedrine's (XR) onset of action is 1.5 to 2 hours so that's very Vyvanse like, right? It's indication for narcolepsy should make me feel not "tired" as sometimes I feel on Vyvanse, awake but tired. The IR works in 5 minutes according to the onset of action.

aeon
10-30-15, 08:36 AM
I’ve had both (generic) Dexedrine spansules and (brand) Vyvance.

For me, Dexedrine spansule takes, on average, about 30 to 40 minutes to come into effect from time of administration.

Vyvance, on the other hand, takes, on average, about 60 to 90 minutes to come into effect from time of administration.

You won’t know what a suitable dose is until you go through the process of titration.

There’s nothing pharmacologically different between spansule and IR for dextroamphetamine except the timing of the
pharmacokinetics, and even then, they are not too different. Spansules are not extended release in the same way as
Vyvance, for example, in terms of pharmacokinetic timing.

My experience of Vyvance is that it was no different than Dexedrine in terms of desired effects or undesired side-effects,
except that it took longer to get going. That said, the amount of Vyvance I would have to take for it to be effective for
my ADHD excluded it as a viable option (Medicaid would say no, and my doctor would be questioned). The dextro-
amphetamine base present in a single Vyvance capsule is simply too little to be of benefit for me and the severity
of my ADHD.

And being around John Hopkins doesn’t mean that the business environment is going to be any different as it concerns
what pharmacies typically sell, and in turn, what they choose to order and keep in stock. No more so than it is going
to be any different for me because I am around Mayo Clinic.


Good Luck,
Ian

baical
11-03-15, 04:46 AM
I see. The thing is Dexedrine is indicated for narcolepsy and adhd. Vyvanse indicated for adhd and binge eating disorder(BED). Vyvanse doesn't make me feel "up". I would have to try Dex first to have a comparison. Dex was said to be used by the U.S. military/pilots so it keeps them alert. I don't see Vyvanse being the same.

aeon
11-03-15, 10:01 AM
You have to have an equivalent amount of dextroamphetamine base to compare and contrast.

For example, that would mean me taking 3 x 60mg Vyvance to (roughly) match my Dexedrine.

If you are thinking Vyvance has less effect, that can be why...per “pill,” Dexedrine has the most dextroamphetamine base of any ADHD med...and Vyvance is usually prescribed as one per day.

And regardless of which med is taken, don’t look to feel “up” from the med. The ideal is to feel as little as possible and have efficacy in addressing your ADHD.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
11-04-15, 06:30 AM
I see. I was on 70 mg Vyvanse which I think is about 23 mg Dex. I haven't tried my 10 mg Dex yet. I would assume it had to be more potent than a 70 mg Vyvanse but I shall find out. Another thing I noticed was that when I was taking an iodine supplement and a digestive enzyme, seems as if it fastened the release of Vyvanse where I felt "high". It wasn't a good thing. I think iodine metabolizes food and meds fasters, that's why. The digestive enzyme I took was Bromelain (which is from pineapple), it digests proteins so it goes where it needs to go. I think it may have digested the Vyvanse a lot faster than it should. It was the "pharma grade" Bromelain 5000. Anyone tried it? I know there's contraindication with its use as it fastens the release of some meds, etc.

Little Missy
11-04-15, 10:26 AM
Let us know how you like the Dex. Is it the spansule?

aeon
11-04-15, 07:09 PM
70mg Vyvance = 20.766mg dextroamphetamine base

10mg Dexedring = 7.333mg dextroamphetamine base


Cheers,
Ian

baical
11-06-15, 09:38 AM
Yes and I will keep you up to date.

Let us know how you like the Dex. Is it the spansule?

baical
11-06-15, 09:43 AM
I don't get these about the mg when it's not the exact mg amount of actual drug that's in it. I guess the pharmaceuticals were just going by its weight total with fillers? I know Vyvanse has dex that goes by 3's: 10 mg has 3 mg of dex, then 20 mg has 6 mg of dex and goes up from there in increments of 3 mg of dex, up to 20.766 mg.

I didn't know that about 10 mg Dexedrine having only 7.333 mg of dex in it. I would assume a 5 mg Desoxyn (which has a rapid onset of action) would actually have 5 mg of meth or possibly less?

70mg Vyvance = 20.766mg dextroamphetamine base

10mg Dexedring = 7.333mg dextroamphetamine base


Cheers,
Ian

aeon
11-06-15, 04:49 PM
I don't get these about the mg when it's not the exact mg amount of actual drug that's in it. I guess the pharmaceuticals were just going by its weight total with fillers?

For example, dextroamphetamine as found in Dexedrine is the sulfate salt, hence dextroamphetamine sulfate. After that salt is ingested, the resulting dextroamphetamine base is 73.333% the weight of the sulfate salt.

The weight of other non-essential ingredients are not included in the indicated dose, and so are not considered in the conversion.

I know Vyvanse has dex that goes by 3's: 10 mg has 3 mg of dex, then 20 mg has 6 mg of dex and goes up from there in increments of 3 mg of dex, up to 20.766 mg.

That’s an easy way to think about it, and close enough. 30mg of Vyvance contains 8.9mg of dextroamphetamine base. The indicated dose does include the lysine which is cleaved in the gut...Vyvance is a prodrug for dextroamphetamine...hence the generic name of lisdexamfetamine dimesylate.

I didn't know that about 10 mg Dexedrine having only 7.333 mg of dex in it. I would assume a 5 mg Desoxyn (which has a rapid onset of action) would actually have 5 mg of meth or possibly less?

Yes, 10mg as the sulfate salt yields 7.333mg of the base, as found in Dexedrine.

Desoxyn is methamphetamine hydrochloride, so a 5mg tablet would result in a lesser amount of methamphetamine base, but I do not know how much less.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
11-08-15, 12:37 PM
I have taken Vyvanse on an empty stomach and with food so I'm curious if Dexedrine is can be taken the same way? I will try to find out so I can take it later today. I would assume yes, since amphetamines are water soluble, meaning food isn't necessarily needed for it to be utilized, maybe food causes interaction like less of the drug is absorbed and or more of it, depending on what was consumed with it.

baical
11-12-15, 05:51 AM
Aeon, according to the manufacturer of Desoxyn, a 5 mg tablet contains 5 mg methamphetamine. Strange why Dexedrine and Vyvanse would have lesser "main" drug than its labeled dosage, must be because they are dextroamphetamines? I would think something like a 5 mg Evekeo would also have 5 mg amphetamine. I think Adderall is the same? If anyone knows? Maybe a 5 mg Adderall really does have 5 mg in it. I think Dexedrine and Vyvanse are the only 2 that has less dosage than it's advertised dose.

Hard to believe a 10 mg Dexedrine Spansule is for narcolepsy considering I feel like sleeping on this. Maybe because I only had 3 hours of sleep? 70 mg Vyvanse would keep me up. Even the legal nootropic called phenylpiracetam was able to keep me up longer. Maybe I need my dose upped? Maybe Desoxyn is in the future?

aeon
11-12-15, 11:39 AM
A 5mg tablet of methamphetamine has 5mg of methamphetamine hydrochloride.

That means it has less than 5mg of methamphetamine base...some of the weight is the hydrochloride.

Table salt, for example, is sodium chloride. 10mg of table salt has less than 10mg of sodium...because some of the weight is the chlorine. Same principle.


Cheers,
Ian

aeon
11-12-15, 04:00 PM
Here are base equivalencies for common amphetamines used in clinical treatment of disorders, all of which are CII controlled substances:

10mg mixed amphetamine salts (Adderall) = 4.747mg dextroamphetamine base, 1.506mg levoamphetamine base
10mg dextroamphetamine sulfate (Dexedrine) = 7.333mg dextroamphetamine base
10mg lisdexamfetamine dimesylate (Vyvance) = 2.966mg dextroamphetamine base
10mg amphetamine sulfate (Evekeo) = 3.666mg dextroamphetamine base, 3.666mg levoamphetamine base
10mg methamphetamine hydrochloride (Desoxyn) = 4mg dextromethamphetamine base, 4mg levomethamphetamine base

Because levoamphetamine acts upon the PNS, (as opposed to dextroamphetamine, which acts upon the CNS) in theory, for a given dose:

Evekeo will have more side-effects than Adderall.
Adderall will have more side-effects than Dexedrine and Vyvance.

Again, this is only in theory, and individual experiences will necessarily vary.

Here is a more detailed breakdown of Adderall, for each of its constituent salts, as found in a 10mg pill:

25% dextroamphetamine sulfate = 1.833mg dextroamphetamine base
25% amphetamine sulfate = 0.916mg dextroamphetamine base, 0.916mg levoamphetamine base
25% dextroamphetamine saccharate = 1.408mg dextroamphetamine base
25% amphetamine aspartate monohydrate = 0.590mg dextroamphetamine base, 0.590mg levoamphetamine base

Here are base equivalencies for methylphenidates used in clinical treatment of disorders, all of which are CII controlled substances:

10mg methylphenidate hydrochloride (Ritalin, Concerta) = 4.350mg dextromethylphenidate base, 4.350mg levomethylphenidate base
10mg dextromethylphenidate hydrochloride (Focalin) = 8.700mg dextromethylphenidate base

All values have been rounded to three decimal places.

Sources:

Wikipedia page for Amphetamine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine
U.S. Dept. of Justice, DEA Office of Diversion Control, page for Conversion Factors for Controlled Substances: http://deadiversion.usdoj.gov/quotas/conv_factor/index.html
PubChem page for methamphetamine: http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/methamphetamine


Cheers,
Ian

baical
11-13-15, 01:57 AM
I was always confused if Desoxyn even had levo in it considering most people who took it said it was very relaxing (opposite of what you'd hear when one is on Evekeo and or Adderall which is far from relaxing). I always thought Desoxyn is just methylated dextroamphetamine (ala Dexedrine) which makes it cross the blood brain barrier rapidly. I haven't heard much info. about Desoxyn causing "jitters" that's a common side effect with drugs containing levo.

aeon
11-13-15, 02:21 AM
I was always confused if Desoxyn even had levo in it considering most people who took it said it was very relaxing (opposite of what you'd hear when one is on Evekeo and or Adderall which is far from relaxing). I always thought Desoxyn is just methylated dextroamphetamine (ala Dexedrine) which makes it cross the blood brain barrier rapidly. I haven't heard much info. about Desoxyn causing "jitters" that's a common side effect with drugs containing levo.

Levo in methamphetamine is not equivalent to levo in amphetamine in terms of PNS stimulation, so racemic forms of each cannot be compared.

Levomethamphetamine is available over-the-counter in the form of a decongestant inhaler.

Also, from what I recall, methylating amphetamine does not change the rate of absorption or rate of blood/brain barrier crossing.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
11-16-15, 09:28 AM
Aeon, so Desoxyn isn't exactly a methylated version of Evekeo then, huh? Or if it is, what you're saying is each one is still different?

aeon
11-16-15, 03:45 PM
Chemically, it is methylated amphetamine, yes.

That said, it is different in effect in a treated individual, and so should be considered in terms of its effects, not as its chemistry.

And when I say different, I mean that...it is not simply a question of things being greater or lesser.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
11-17-15, 05:15 AM
So 10 mg of Dex Spansule also puts me to sleep. I know this isn't exactly 70 mg of Vyvanse. I had stopped taking my iodine supplement. I think the reason why Vyvanse seemed strong for a few hours but fades out was because of my use of iodine. It is for metabolism, considering amphetamines also fastens metabolism, not sure yet if it had anything to do with that. I was using Lugol's then Iosol iodine. Maybe my 2 hour sleep today also may have something to do with 10 mg of Dexedrine Spansule making me want to go to bed sooner. I know this med isn't for sleep replacement.

sarahsweets
11-17-15, 05:26 AM
too little sleep makes my meds useless..

aeon
11-17-15, 03:37 PM
For some with ADHD, there can be an idiosyncratic response to amphetamines as it regards sleep. This is rare, however. Some people find they can fall asleep more easily if their mind is quiet when they actually need to sleep.

The change in metabolism from clinical use of amphetamines is negligible.

Also, there is no need to use a supplement of any kind, and any attempt to potentiate your meds is outside prescribed use, and constitutes a form of abuse.

Too little sleep makes my meds useless as well...and one time, worse than useless.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
11-24-15, 04:48 AM
I've gotten some sleep but 10 mg of Dex Spansule still does seem to make me "sleepy", maybe too relaxing I guess. Hard to believe this is for narcolepsy. I think I read from another thread that Desoxyn is "smoother", not sure what that even means. Not sure if the 10 mg Dex Spansule is some form of tolerance and or "drop" from my max dose of Vyvanse. Maybe?

I might ask my doc to up my dose to 15 mg, maybe twice daily? I guess that's what the max I can go for or my insurance, Medicaid, might start complaining? What do you think Aeon? If not Dexedrine, then Desoxyn might be worth a try, it's rapid acting so I think it's what I really need in this fast paced city life.

aeon
11-24-15, 05:58 AM
Not sure if the 10 mg Dex Spansule is some form of tolerance and or "drop" from my max dose of Vyvanse. Maybe?

Nope, not a chance.

I might ask my doc to up my dose to 15 mg, maybe twice daily? I guess that's what the max I can go for or my insurance, Medicaid, might start complaining?

I have no idea...I recently learned that it is different from state to state, and why that is so.

What do you think Aeon? If not Dexedrine, then Desoxyn might be worth a try, it's rapid acting so I think it's what I really need in this fast paced city life.

I wouldn’t even pursue it. First, because it will be a PITA to fill that prescription every month, and perhaps even once, and second, because it is neurotoxic, even at clinical doses.

Dexedrine spansules are rapid enough for me, that’s for sure...and I like their staying power and smooth release.


Cheers,
Ian

aeon
11-24-15, 10:58 AM
Not sure if the 10 mg Dex Spansule is some form of tolerance and or "drop" from my max dose of Vyvanse. Maybe?

Tolerance is simply not an issue at clinical doses for the vast, vast majority of people.

I heard a news story on BBC World Service about a guy who had a fondness for methamphetamine.

He would take 750mg at one time, via a syringe he would jam into his neck.

That is the kind of behavior that leads to tolerance and downregulation of receptors. That’s a function of both the amount he would take, and the fact the drug would hit his brain in a couple of seconds.

ADHD meds, when taken as prescribed, are absorbed at a rate that is not an assault on the brain, and the amounts are typically small enough to not activate the body’s regulatory systems.

That said, there is a growing body of evidence that suggests methamphetamine is neurotoxic at any dose.

I know for myself, based on all I have read, I would not take it, and if it was prescribed I would refuse it.

Methamphetamine is no more efficacious than dextroamphetamine in randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies, yet it comes with a much higher risk profile.

It’s simply not a reasonable option any longer. I would not be surprised if it was moved to Schedule I classification within my lifetime.


Cheers,
Ian

Adenosine
11-24-15, 11:10 AM
Methamphetamine is no more efficacious than dextroamphetamine in randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies, yet it comes with a much higher risk profile.

It’s simply not a reasonable option any longer. I would not be surprised if it was moved to Schedule I classification within my lifetime.It's like how cocaine is more or less pointless as a therapeutic stimulant now that we have methylphenidate.

aeon
11-24-15, 11:19 AM
It's like how cocaine is more or less pointless as a therapeutic stimulant now that we have methylphenidate.

Yes. Its utility is now found in dentistry, and little else.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
11-25-15, 04:48 AM
Because cocaine is not available in "therapeutic dose"? Methylphenidate can be abused just as much as cocaine.

It's like how cocaine is more or less pointless as a therapeutic stimulant now that we have methylphenidate.

baical
11-25-15, 05:26 AM
I wonder if meth's "neurotoxicity" is based on "mice studies"?

I understand the Nazis and the Japenese's soldiers use of meth still made lots of them live up to 100. I would think OTC cigarettes would kill one first of stroke before meth would harm you (at therapeutic dose of 5-25 mg daily of Desoxyn).

Tolerance is simply not an issue at clinical doses for the vast, vast majority of people.

I heard a news story on BBC World Service about a guy who had a fondness for methamphetamine.

He would take 750mg at one time, via a syringe he would jam into his neck.

That is the kind of behavior that leads to tolerance and downregulation of receptors. That’s a function of both the amount he would take, and the fact the drug would hit his brain in a couple of seconds.

ADHD meds, when taken as prescribed, are absorbed at a rate that is not an assault on the brain, and the amounts are typically small enough to not activate the body’s regulatory systems.

That said, there is a growing body of evidence that suggests methamphetamine is neurotoxic at any dose.

I know for myself, based on all I have read, I would not take it, and if it was prescribed I would refuse it.

Methamphetamine is no more efficacious than dextroamphetamine in randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies, yet it comes with a much higher risk profile.

It’s simply not a reasonable option any longer. I would not be surprised if it was moved to Schedule I classification within my lifetime.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
11-25-15, 07:32 AM
Aeon, I saw that my insurance covers Dexedrine ER (brand only) and dextroamphetamine tablets. I know I can only get brand Dex Spansule (not generic). Does the dextroamphetamine tablet mean I can get those quick release Dexedrine then? What doses do these come in (5 and 10 only?) These are 1st tier "preferred" meds according to my insurance. Desoxyn was listed as 2nd tier which requires prior authorization I think.

I wonder if Adderall's "onset" of action is faster than Vyvanse or Dex Spansule?

baical
11-25-15, 08:05 AM
Aeon, I think my insurance only covers the max dose of Dex Spansule which is 15 mg. I'm sure twice daily would be covered as well but as far as dosages go Dex Spansule is what's covered (brand only) and this only goes up to 15 mg, Zenzedi is 2nd tier option. I'm curious how much mg is covered with the dex tablets (quick release)? I know they come in 5 and 10 mgs and these are taken every 4 hours? I would assume at least 10 mg 4x daily would be covered? Max?

Adenosine
11-26-15, 10:03 AM
Because cocaine is not available in "therapeutic dose"? Methylphenidate can be abused just as much as cocaine.It has an even shorter half-life (1 hour) than methylphenidate (2-3), which creates a rapid, uneven high-crash cycle that can only be avoided through frequent redosing, and it has local anesthetic properties that add a disruptive effect on heart rhythm beyond that of the stimulation alone.

They do have similar mechanisms of action, and I sometimes wonder if cocaine's famous addictive potential has been exaggerated, or if it comes from the fast onset of insufflation and IV use (amphetamine taken in that manner is one of the most dangerous things you will ever find), but it's a clumsy agent in any case.

aeon
11-26-15, 10:51 AM
I wonder if meth's "neurotoxicity" is based on "mice studies"?

I understand the Nazis and the Japenese's soldiers use of meth still made lots of them live up to 100. I would think OTC cigarettes would kill one first of stroke before meth would harm you (at therapeutic dose of 5-25 mg daily of Desoxyn).

No, this is based on human studies, at clinical doses. The published research on this is easy to find. Begin with links from the Wikipedia page for methamphetamine.

Aeon, I saw that my insurance covers Dexedrine ER (brand only) and dextroamphetamine tablets. I know I can only get brand Dex Spansule (not generic). Does the dextroamphetamine tablet mean I can get those quick release Dexedrine then? What doses do these come in (5 and 10 only?) These are 1st tier "preferred" meds according to my insurance. Desoxyn was listed as 2nd tier which requires prior authorization I think.

I wonder if Adderall's "onset" of action is faster than Vyvanse or Dex Spansule?

The rate of onset for Dexedrine CR and dextroamphetamine IR isn’t that different. Adderall XR is very similar to Dexedrine CR spansules. All of those are faster onset than Vyvance.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/727/23028958560_2ae3ddc5bd_o.png

I don’t know if Amedra makes Dexedrine IR any more.

Aeon, I think my insurance only covers the max dose of Dex Spansule which is 15 mg. I'm sure twice daily would be covered as well but as far as dosages go Dex Spansule is what's covered (brand only) and this only goes up to 15 mg, Zenzedi is 2nd tier option. I'm curious how much mg is covered with the dex tablets (quick release)? I know they come in 5 and 10 mgs and these are taken every 4 hours? I would assume at least 10 mg 4x daily would be covered? Max?

Quantity covered will vary by state, so I can’t tell you that. You will have to check the formulary listing for your administered program.


Cheers,
Ian

aeon
11-26-15, 11:01 AM
...I sometimes wonder if cocaine's famous addictive potential has been exaggerated, or if it comes from the fast onset of insufflation and IV use...

It is the combination of its degree of dopamine dysregulation (strong) and the usual routes of administration.

I don’t have any sense that the addiction potential of cocaine has been exaggerated.

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/davidkroll/files/2014/02/670px-Marijuanacomparison.gif

Cocaine is the last stop before the train you are on arrives in Hell.


Cheers,
Ian

Adenosine
11-26-15, 08:58 PM
It is the combination of its degree of dopamine dysregulation (strong) and the usual routes of administration.

I don’t have any sense that the addiction potential of cocaine has been exaggerated.It's one of the more dangerous drugs out there, but you could say the same for high-dose amphetamine, and probably for high-dose methylphenidate as well. What I wonder—partly from what I've heard about coca leaves, and partly from the knowledge that all three act as dopamine reuptake inhibitors (amphetamine is a releasing agent as well)—is if the inverse would also be true, if cocaine could lose its explosive nature when the dose was dialed down and the dopamine increase was moderated.

I'm not certain, and it's a clumsy stimulant in any case, but I've heard people talk about classical psychedelics and ADHD meds with nearly as much horror, and I'm wary of portrayals that seem entirely demonic.



http://blogs-images.forbes.com/davidkroll/files/2014/02/670px-Marijuanacomparison.gif

Cocaine is the last stop before the train you are on arrives in Hell.


Cheers,
IanI've seen this chart several times before. It's interesting, but some of the placements—solvents being less dangerous than amphetamine, for instance—make me wonder how they made their calculations.

I notice that the version you posted includes separate measures of acute and chronic harm for three of the substances. Do you have a link to the full data set?

baical
11-27-15, 02:44 AM
Yet 3 most "common drugs" are easier to get: tobacco, alcohol, and marijuana.

Aeon, those charts and studies are based on rats! Also, crushed Dexedrine Spansule (is different than not crushing it). The sheet I get from the pharmacy advised not to crush it. The info. I got before was that Dex IR kicks in within 5 minutes. Dex Spansule about 1.5 hours. Vyvanse the lysine gets cleaved in 1 hour and it picks up within 2 hours.

To people who haven't taken these meds, they'd be shocked if they saw you are on it. You should've seen the look on everyone at the pharmacy. They thought I was some gone wild crackhead. They do not know the condition, they do not even know how the drug is. I used to be one of those people who would get shocked just by smelling "weed" on a person thinking they are "crazy". I think "drunks" are crazier with their DUIs and so on.

I had told my doc 10 mg Dex Spansule seems to make me feel tired. I think Vyvanse did something similar off and on, not sure why. I wanted my Dex Spansule upped to 15 mg but my doc wanted to see 1 more month to see how I feel on it. I do not feel "energized" at all that I would need to drink green tea or black tea a few hours later. Let's not bash Desoxyn, just look at the reviews of patients here:

http://www.drugs.com/comments/methamphetamine/desoxyn.html

9.3 out of 10 when it should be 10/10! I like how one reviewer mentioned his ADHD is all gone and helpful with OCD. I think my OCD "lurks" here and there due to my "ADHD distractability". To most reviewers they said they had been on EVERY ADHD meds there is and Desoxyn was the only one that works. The other ADHD meds seem to be only socially "acceptable" (aka "kiddie amphetamine") because of popularity and marketability. When one says "meth", people panic! Same goes with Opioids vs. Aspirins. When one says they take heroin for pain, people panic due to stigma, but when one says "tramadol" it sounds "cute".

I think Vyvance's popularity is partly due to its "name" sounding pretty and not as aggressive as "Desoxyn". Evekeo sounds cute as well. Adderall not as cute but is as appealing as Dexedrine. Dexedrine is slightly prettier than Adderall, but not as pretty as "Ritalin", which I think was why Ritalin was popular in the 70's, because that name was the nickname of the wife of the creator of the drug. Also, "heroin" sounds soft and pretty that's why people underestimate it and take more than they should thinking it's soft, same with cocaine. "Meth" just sounds way too aggressive.

Adenosine
11-27-15, 09:59 AM
I don't know about you, but the word "Evekeo" sounds like some tweaker s--- to me, and "Dexedrine" reminds of all the military personnel who used to take it during combat. The names sound scarier than the substances they actually refer to.

"Ritalin" has quite a soft sound, though.

baical
11-27-15, 11:08 AM
Evekeo without the "o" would sound scary, "Eveke". Dexedrine, without the last "e" (Dexedrin), might be scary as well. Dexedrine is a feminine name. I think medicine names have that feminine undertone in their names yet not all feminine names are "pretty". Jokes aside...

The poison is in the dosage! All the suggestion to take a zinc supplement as it is a "precursor" to dopamine, yet no one wants to talk about what a dark horse zinc can be when it can be neurotoxic (dose dependent) and so is iron (excess iron is found in Alzheimer's patients, etc.). Which is why supplemental iron is a no no, unless you are deficient and or anemic. Just saying. The Desoxyn suggested dosages are between 20-25 mg max, yet some of the reviews on drugs.com mentioned they are up to 70 mg for it to be effective. The recreational dosage people talk about in recreational forums have mentioned 100 mg (street meth, IV or smoked). Desoxyn is pharma grade so we all know what we're getting here. I think Aeon posted something about someone shooting up to 750 mg of meth, that's just wild.

baical
11-29-15, 11:45 PM
I know it's too early to say if the slight twitches on my face has anything to do with Dexedrine. I never noticed this with high dose Vyvanse (70mg). I must say the "euphoria" was more noticeable and intense with Vyvanse, maybe because I was on a higher dose of it than a 10mg Dexedrine Spansule. Maybe Vyvanse has a different mechanism of action. Maybe after the lysine is cleaved in the gut, the "rush" of the dextroamphetamine just makes it more euphoric I guess. Confidence level is there for both drugs but something about Vyvanse that makes me feel a little more "empathogenic". It makes me feel the closeness with people but this sometimes can have bad effects because people are unpredictable. The more you feel close to them and be open with them, you'll end up getting screwed over or "whipped" (if it's the opposite sex anyway, from experience). In other words, Vyvanse makes me a "nice guy" (for as long as it lasts) and nice guys finish last (as the saying goes) because anyone nice are too empathetic instead of having that "winner takes all" attitude (i.e. an a-hole).

"The terms empathogen and entactogen are used to designate a class of psychoactive drugs that produce experiences of emotional communion, oneness, relatedness, emotional openness—that is, empathy or sympathy—as particularly observed and reported for experiences with MDMA (ecstasy). This class of drug is distinguished from the classes of hallucinogen or psychedelic, and amphetamine or stimulant. Major members of this class include MDMA, MDA, MDEA, MDOH, MBDB, 6-APB, methylone, mephedrone, αMT, and αET, among others. Most entactogens are phenethylamines and amphetamines, although several, such as αMT and αET, are tryptamines."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathogen-entactogen

I'm sure Desoxyn will be much more empathogenic, no wonder Hitler loved his dogs more than humans (not that humans are more loveable than dogs).

baical
12-01-15, 07:34 AM
Aeon, what does having a prior authorization really mean because with Desoxyn it requires my doc to have "prior authorization"? Does that mean that if he writes a prescription for it, what other stuff does he need to do? It is only 2nd line choice meds for ADHD, not 1st like Vyvanse, Adderall, Ritalin, or Dexedrine.

Giant pharmacy had been so far so good with getting Dexedrine Spansule considering I had a problem getting it from other places (remember I talked about how every pharmacy gave me the run around that I ended up back on Vyvanse).

In case I do end up on Desoxyn, I would prefer my doc to switch me back and forth between Desoxyn and Dexedrine as to avoid any such "neurotoxic" effects (if any at all) of Desoxyn. I understand for obesity max use of it is 12 weeks and only 5 mg (I think).

aeon
12-01-15, 07:43 AM
Prior Authorization means a lot of paperwork and phone calls so Medicaid will cover a particular med. It requires that you have gone through the process of titration with every other med first, and your doctor has to be willing to do it.

There’s no strategy or schedule to avoid the negative health effects of methamphetamine. It is neurotoxic, period.


Cheers,
Ian

Little Missy
12-01-15, 10:19 AM
Yet 3 most "common drugs" are easier to get: tobacco, alcohol, and marijuana.

Aeon, those charts and studies are based on rats! Also, crushed Dexedrine Spansule (is different than not crushing it). The sheet I get from the pharmacy advised not to crush it. The info. I got before was that Dex IR kicks in within 5 minutes. Dex Spansule about 1.5 hours. Vyvanse the lysine gets cleaved in 1 hour and it picks up within 2 hours.

To people who haven't taken these meds, they'd be shocked if they saw you are on it. You should've seen the look on everyone at the pharmacy. They thought I was some gone wild crackhead. They do not know the condition, they do not even know how the drug is. I used to be one of those people who would get shocked just by smelling "weed" on a person thinking they are "crazy". I think "drunks" are crazier with their DUIs and so on.

I had told my doc 10 mg Dex Spansule seems to make me feel tired. I think Vyvanse did something similar off and on, not sure why. I wanted my Dex Spansule upped to 15 mg but my doc wanted to see 1 more month to see how I feel on it. I do not feel "energized" at all that I would need to drink green tea or black tea a few hours later. Let's not bash Desoxyn, just look at the reviews of patients here:

http://www.drugs.com/comments/methamphetamine/desoxyn.html

9.3 out of 10 when it should be 10/10! I like how one reviewer mentioned his ADHD is all gone and helpful with OCD. I think my OCD "lurks" here and there due to my "ADHD distractability". To most reviewers they said they had been on EVERY ADHD meds there is and Desoxyn was the only one that works. The other ADHD meds seem to be only socially "acceptable" (aka "kiddie amphetamine") because of popularity and marketability. When one says "meth", people panic! Same goes with Opioids vs. Aspirins. When one says they take heroin for pain, people panic due to stigma, but when one says "tramadol" it sounds "cute".

I think Vyvance's popularity is partly due to its "name" sounding pretty and not as aggressive as "Desoxyn". Evekeo sounds cute as well. Adderall not as cute but is as appealing as Dexedrine. Dexedrine is slightly prettier than Adderall, but not as pretty as "Ritalin", which I think was why Ritalin was popular in the 70's, because that name was the nickname of the wife of the creator of the drug. Also, "heroin" sounds soft and pretty that's why people underestimate it and take more than they should thinking it's soft, same with cocaine. "Meth" just sounds way too aggressive.

I think Zenzedi sounds like a great Italian casserole.

baical
12-03-15, 03:33 AM
I wonder what dosage could a doctor prescribe and or the insurance is allowed to cover? So since 15 mg Dex spansule is the max dose, could the max I could get it 2x daily? My doc seem to be looking at his Nurse's drug handbook to determine what dosage they come in and how many times it can be prescribed per day. I know some people on this forum have said they are prescribed more dosage than what the max is (i.e. 90 mg Vyvanse, etc.).

Prior Authorization means a lot of paperwork and phone calls so Medicaid will cover a particular med. It requires that you have gone through the process of titration with every other med first, and your doctor has to be willing to do it.

There’s no strategy or schedule to avoid the negative health effects of methamphetamine. It is neurotoxic, period.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
01-25-16, 02:49 AM
Aeon, does the Dexedrine Spansule 15 mg have the same amount of dextroamphetamine in it as the 15 mg Dextroamphetamine tablets (IR)?

I'm trying to see if my doc could switch me to Dex IR instead of spansules. I just got my prescription for spansule (10 mg twice daily, or once daily 20 mg). I'd prefer a quick acting and multi dose daily, at least 2-3 times daily.

aeon
01-25-16, 11:01 PM
Yes, it does have the same amount of dex.

The onset time of IR and spansule isn’t so different (look it up)...but the release time sure is.

Gimme my spansules! :yes:


Cheers,
Ian

baical
01-31-16, 06:48 AM
I would think the release time would determine the onset time?

Anyway, my doc up my dose to 10 mg twice daily or once daily, so that's 20 mg total. I shall try both ways. Here's another question; since I am on medicaid and in my state only "brand" Dexedrine is covered by the insurance but here's a surprise, considering my dose was upped to 10 mg twice daily, the pharmacy gave me a generic form of Dexedrine (dextroamphetamine sulfate), from Teva. I wonder why this is the case? Is it because I went over the 15 mg limit of brand Dexedrine spansule? Max dose it comes in is 15 mg after all. So once I go over it, I get switched to generic Dex Spansule (from Teva). I shall find out if there's even a difference between brands.

Yes, it does have the same amount of dex.

The onset time of IR and spansule isn’t so different (look it up)...but the release time sure is.

Gimme my spansules! :yes:


Cheers,
Ian

baical
02-01-16, 04:04 AM
I'm not sure why the info. paper that came with my prescription for dextroamphetamine sulfate indicated that this med is used for treatment of "ADHD in children and narcolepsy". I was asked by the pharmacist if I need child proof bottle, I said no, it's for me. I'm not a child. I had a feeling Vyvanse was for kids. Now, I also think Dexedrine is for kids as well. Maybe is it because ADHD was originally a children's diagnosis? Is adult ADHD so new that the info. labels wouldn't have a note that it is for adult ADHD? I bet Dexosyn is also for kids.

baical
02-02-16, 07:58 AM
Aeon, since I am now prescribed 10 mg Dex Spansule twice daily, is it a good idea to ask my doc to just give me 15 mg Dex Spansule for a.m. and 5 mg Dex IR for my second dose so that the half life doesn't linger on to bedtime? I would think it's a good idea to have IR as my second dose, right? Let's say I take my second dose after 6-8 hours from my first dose. My doc seem confused if there is even an IR, what is it called exactly? Is it just dextroamphetamine, without "spansule" in the wording?

thomass
02-04-16, 11:42 AM
Yes it's just dextroamphetamine. The whole ir vs er thing depends on your personal situation. If you have trouble sleeping, then switching to ir might help. When i was on vyvanse, i always had trouble sleeping. I've never had the dex er so I can't comment on sleep issues with that particular med, but I don't have any problems sleeping with ir dex.

aeon
02-04-16, 04:23 PM
I would think the release time would determine the onset time?

The rate of onset for Dexedrine CR and dextroamphetamine IR isn’t that different, and in the first ~20 minutes, almost the same. The release for CR is much slower than IR as evidenced by plasma concentrations after, for example, 8 hours. IR dumps all in at the start, contributing to the peak/valley effect many people have with IR.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/727/23028958560_2ae3ddc5bd_o.png

baical
02-08-16, 04:23 AM
but IRs half life dissipates quicker therefore that suggest it works faster and shorter so it fades quicker. I would think second dosing with an IR is best than a spansule?

baical
02-10-16, 07:45 AM
I find it working better to take 2 separate doses daily than 1 dose daily, not sure why this is. I take 10 mg of dex spansule in the a.m. than about 7-8 hours later another dose. I think Vyvanse may have been just fine had it been prescribed as such. Does anyone here know or ever tried taking a second dose of Vyvanse instead of the usual 1 daily dose? I think Vyvanse has the same potential if taken in 2 separate dosages. I was maxed on 70 mg. I could have taken 30 in the a.m. and another 30 in the p.m. and it may have been a good medicine actually. I don't know. I'd like to hear from you guys if anyone's been given Vyvanse to take this way? I think these meds work best taken twice daily.

baical
03-18-16, 12:55 PM
So now I am being given Mallinckrodt generic. I have had Amedra and Barr before. I haven't noticed the difference because of dose differences from 5-15 mg. I haven't tried Actavis, yet. I'm surprised I'm being given Mallinckrodt this time. I had asked the pharmacist about the differences and she said some people think different brands are good, some are bad. Kinda like orange juices; some are Tropicana material, some are Kool Aid.

There are four:


Amedra (brand)
Barr (generic)
Mallinckrodt (generic)
Actavis (generic)


I have had Amedra once (brown and clear spansule, orange beads), Mallinckrodt a half-dozen times (white capsule with pink imprint, never opened one up to see the beads), and the rest of the time, Barr (brown and clear spansule, white beads). I have never seen or had Actavis-manufactured spansules.

These have all been for the 15mg spansule.


Cheers,
Ian

baical
05-03-16, 05:00 AM
Aeon, I'm on 10 mg Dex Spansule in the morning and 5 mg Dex IR in the afternoon. I feel the focused on the IR, could it be it's because it is a lower dose? It isn't the hyperfocus type I felt on higher dosage, just focused. I think hyperfocused tend to have its drawback, but I shall try a 5 mg IR in the morning and in the afternoon to see what's up. From what I understand the Dex IR comes in 10 mg max dose? I thought it comes in 15 mg dose as well (before Zenzedi existed). Does Dex IR come in 5 and 10 mg only?

The rate of onset for Dexedrine CR and dextroamphetamine IR isn’t that different, and in the first ~20 minutes, almost the same. The release for CR is much slower than IR as evidenced by plasma concentrations after, for example, 8 hours. IR dumps all in at the start, contributing to the peak/valley effect many people have with IR.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/727/23028958560_2ae3ddc5bd_o.png

ThePhantom
05-12-16, 02:39 PM
I didn't feel anything on them when I got the 30 free prescription and my doc had me on 3 of the 70 mg ones but I take Dexedrine immediate release and I was on 90 mg back (60 mg now) then. The Spansules arent great but okay. I took them all and just went back on the dexedrine and these were real 5 mg dexedrine but these are effective but had too many of them WAY too many it was 18 of them/day but they were the best and I take Zenzedi 20 mg 3 day now and they are good.
Are you prescribed for twice a day? Why take it three times vs. twice. Please explain.

GoodguY93
08-14-17, 10:30 PM
I've been on Dexedrine ER Amedra brand name for 6-7 months. I started on 15 mg once daily taken in the morning but a month later got my doc to up it to 30 mg ER once daily which improved my symptoms drastically.. (felt more relaxed, less fidgety with my fingers and less rocking of my legs and or back, focused instead of distracted, motivated instead of lazyish etc.). This dose was perfect other then one thing...it didn't last my full day. I felt covered from 7 am till roughly 1-2 pm. I went back to my doc and he suggested I try a 30 mg vyvanse capsule with a 15 mg ER Dexedrine spansules in the morning and a 15 mg spansules in the afternoon when I felt I needed a redose. I went to the pharmacy to pick up my 14 day, 30 mg a day supply of vyvanse but the pharmacist told me the vyvanse was not covered by my insurance since it is a fairly new ADHD med and my insurance company has not yet accepted vyvanse as a covered medication for ADHD. I asked her what would a 14 day supply cost me at this dosage and she imformed me (not exactly sure..was a while ago) approx. 150$ so close to 11$ CAD a pill. This was very expensive to pay out of pocket but I was curious as to how vyvanse would help me compared to Dexedrine so I decided to pay out of pocket.. the next morn I took a 30 mg capsule of vyvanse but did not take the 15 mg spansules of Dexedrine with it like my doc scripted me just to see how vyvanse affected me as a med alone. Within 1 hour to 1-1/2 hours later, to my surprise, ( checked the conversion table the night before and informed myself that 30 mg vyvanse contained approx 8-9 mg of dextroamphetamine) I felt STRONG effects coming on. By 3 hours in I felt like vyvanse was a much cleaner, smoother, more focusing medication then Dexedrine spansules. I really liked vyvanse, the pro-drug to dextroamphetamine. Funny cause they both contain the active ingredient dextroamphetamine but vyvanse is a much better med for me personally. I like Dexedrine ER better for the fact it kicks in in roughly 30-40 mins compared to 1 to
1 and 1/2 hours but the vyvanse takes the win for every other field. I ended up finishing the two week trial and returned to my doc to inform him I really liked the vyvanse but insurance did not cover it and it was WAY to expensive to pay out of pocket for me. He said that he's disappointed it's not covered by most insurance company's since he has prescribed quite a few people with ADHD that did not like Dexedrine, vyvanse and almost all said they prefer vyvanse over dex. I ended up getting an extra 15 mg spansules of Dexedrine in the afternoon after my 30 mg dose in the morn for a total of 45 mg of dex a day. I've been on this dose for a good 5-6 months now and it's O.K. I'm not going to up the dose anymore since I'm fairly sure 45 mg a day is perfect/almost too much for a person per day. This dose in vyvanse is equivalent to roughly 140 mg! 30 mgs seemed much stronger to me then the 8 mg of dextroamphetamine it is considered to have active in it when comparing to taking 8 mg of Dexedrine.

Anyway that was my two cents..just letting you guys knowt my experience with the Differences between the two..Thanks

GoodguY93

GoodguY93
08-14-17, 10:31 PM
I've been on Dexedrine ER Amedra brand name for 6-7 months. I started on 15 mg once daily taken in the morning but a month later got my doc to up it to 30 mg ER once daily which improved my symptoms drastically.. (felt more relaxed, less fidgety with my fingers and less rocking of my legs and or back, focused instead of distracted, motivated instead of lazyish etc.). This dose was perfect other then one thing...it didn't last my full day. I felt covered from 7 am till roughly 1-2 pm. I went back to my doc and he suggested I try a 30 mg vyvanse capsule with a 15 mg ER Dexedrine spansules in the morning and a 15 mg spansules in the afternoon when I felt I needed a redose. I went to the pharmacy to pick up my 14 day, 30 mg a day supply of vyvanse but the pharmacist told me the vyvanse was not covered by my insurance since it is a fairly new ADHD med and my insurance company has not yet accepted vyvanse as a covered medication for ADHD. I asked her what would a 14 day supply cost me at this dosage and she imformed me (not exactly sure..was a while ago) approx. 150$ so close to 11$ CAD a pill. This was very expensive to pay out of pocket but I was curious as to how vyvanse would help me compared to Dexedrine so I decided to pay out of pocket.. the next morn I took a 30 mg capsule of vyvanse but did not take the 15 mg spansules of Dexedrine with it like my doc scripted me just to see how vyvanse affected me as a med alone. Within 1 hour to 1-1/2 hours later, to my surprise, ( checked the conversion table the night before and informed myself that 30 mg vyvanse contained approx 8-9 mg of dextroamphetamine) I felt STRONG effects coming on. By 3 hours in I felt like vyvanse was a much cleaner, smoother, more focusing medication then Dexedrine spansules. I really liked vyvanse, the pro-drug to dextroamphetamine. Funny cause they both contain the active ingredient dextroamphetamine but vyvanse is a much better med for me personally. I like Dexedrine ER better for the fact it kicks in in roughly 30-40 mins compared to 1 to
1 and 1/2 hours but the vyvanse takes the win for every other field. I ended up finishing the two week trial and returned to my doc to inform him I really liked the vyvanse but insurance did not cover it and it was WAY to expensive to pay out of pocket for me. He said that he's disappointed it's not covered by most insurance company's since he has prescribed quite a few people with ADHD that did not like Dexedrine, vyvanse and almost all said they prefer vyvanse over dex. I ended up getting an extra 15 mg spansules of Dexedrine in the afternoon after my 30 mg dose in the morn for a total of 45 mg of dex a day. I've been on this dose for a good 5-6 months now and it's O.K. I'm not going to up the dose anymore since I'm fairly sure 45 mg a day is perfect/almost too much for a person per day. This dose in vyvanse is equivalent to roughly 140 mg! 30 mgs seemed much stronger to me then the 8 mg of dextroamphetamine it is considered to have active in it when comparing to taking 8 mg of Dexedrine.

Anyway that was my two cents..just letting you guys knowt my experience with the Differences between the two..Thanks

GoodguY93

sarahsweets
08-15-17, 04:18 AM
I'm not going to up the dose anymore since I'm fairly sure 45 mg a day is perfect/almost too much for a person per day. This dose in vyvanse is equivalent to roughly 140 mg! 30 mgs seemed much stronger to me then the 8 mg of dextroamphetamine it is considered to have active in it when comparing to taking 8 mg of Dexedrine.

FYI should you need more, the daily recommended max for dex I believe is 60mg.