View Full Version : How do we know for sure a child has ADHD at age 4?


mildadhd
07-17-15, 05:46 PM
How do we know for sure if a child has ADHD at the age of 4?


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mildadhd
07-17-15, 06:01 PM
What possible treatment options would you recommend, if you where not sure a child has ADHD, at the age of 4?


P

mildadhd
07-17-15, 06:16 PM
(P 7-8)..I am not questioning the genetically-based temperamental variability that contributes to the diagnosis of ADHD, and the high efficacy of psychostimulants in reducing impulsive behavior (Faraone, et al., 2006).

These are well-established facts.

I simply assert that we have, at our fingertips, better social-emotional, maturation-promoting tools to address such problems than are currently widely used to promote childhood development at home or within school systems.

At a societal level, we have yet to institutionalize the power of PLAY to promote desirable mind maturation. (Jaak Panksepp, Phd).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242642/#!po=25.0000





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Luvmybully
07-17-15, 09:14 PM
My youngest daughter was diagnosed at 3. (She just turned 21)

We 1st went to our pediatrician, starting very early, by age 2 I was insistant that there was something profound going on with my daughter. He FINALLY referred us to a developmental Pediatrician when she was 3.

Our treatment options were: medication, therapy/education/counseling for my husband and I.

We declined the medication and did just the education and counseling for me and my husband.

When she was 4 she entered the public school system in their early childhood special ed program.

SB_UK
07-18-15, 03:02 AM
That's the interesting thing about ADHD - nobody can be SURE they have it.

SB_UK
07-18-15, 03:12 AM
Kid-wise - you can tell something's wrong from age 4yrs - slow to pick up language.
Then from 4yes to approaching 10 years now.
Behaves 3 - 4 years younger than age in all aspects of life.
Then - see full-blown ADHD as in tick all boxes on wikipedia page for ADHD.

An individual with inattention may have some or all of the following symptoms:[37] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder#cite_note-NIMH1-37)


Be easily distracted, miss details, forget things, and frequently switch from one activity to another
Have difficulty maintaining focus on one task
Become bored with a task after only a few minutes, unless doing something enjoyable
Have difficulty focusing attention on organizing and completing a task or learning something new
Have trouble completing or turning in homework assignments, often losing things (e.g., pencils, toys, assignments) needed to complete tasks or activities
Not seem to listen when spoken to
Daydream, become easily confused, and move slowly
Have difficulty processing information as quickly and accurately as others
Struggle to follow instructions

An individual with hyperactivity may have some or all of the following symptoms:[37] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder#cite_note-NIMH1-37)


Fidget and squirm in their seats
Talk nonstop
Dash around, touching or playing with anything and everything in sight
Have trouble sitting still during dinner, school, doing homework, and story time
Be constantly in motion
Have difficulty doing quiet tasks or activities

It's a well-constructed list - I can confirm the presence of all of these at 8 yrs - but prior to 8 years - the most significant observation was the developmental delay - the kid really does behave like he's several years younger.
It's quaint for the first few years ie there's something nice about that transition from innocent baby into far from innocent mind .... ... but when we start to see friends of his (he's the oldest in his class) run rings around him with words / ideas - it becomes quite painful.

Personally - the key observation re:assessment of ADHD at an early age - which is barely discussed on ADDF - to my mind re:ADHD is the developmental delay.

-*-

The key problem (we;ve had this many times over) is that if you've inappropriate impulsiveness for your age - we see this in him - then he'll run across a road - any road just to see a friend - never looking before he crosses. My first dog did exactly that - and ONLY once - and she died the first time she did it - after being hit by a car.

Thing is - is that you can't make a 4/5 year old fit into a class with 8/9 year olds - because they're just not ready; it's just plain dangerous.

SB_UK
07-18-15, 03:36 AM
http://www.playattention.com/is-adhd-simply-a-developmental-delay/

Despite the delay - Significantly, Shaw and Rapaport found that the primary motor cortex developed faster in ADHD children.Trying to make some connection to sensory, motor development and cerebellar co-ordination.

IE increased development of the sensory system (covered ie highly sensitive person = ADHD), parallel development of the motor system (quote above) and the necessary development of the cerebellum to accommodate (HANDLE) the change.

This takes us back around to the idea of the connection between movement and learning.

Also of note - physical clumsiness in ADDer children - frequently falling down.

-*-

I'm wondering whether what ADDers need is the equivalent of primary school extending not from 5 to 11 but from 8 to 14 years of age - with gross and fine motor tasks (no heavy shift to words) from running to drawing occupying the period to 8 yrs.

The cerebellum is one of the most important structures involved in sensorimotor coordinationSo even simply the act of repetitively catching a tennis ball - progressively being thrown faster at the ADDer ?
Things like that.

It is true that when we look at the ADDer child - if it were a machine - you'd suspect that all manner of joints had become loose, needed tightening ie there's a problem of balance/co-ordination which must mean that the system regulating sensorimotor balance isn't itself tuned.

-*-

Question - throw the ADDer outside to play, play, play up until 8 years of age - to develop the ADDer's improved cerebellum which can take the switch from gross, fine locomotor into the next phase of human development ie words, mind ... ... ... ?
What does the 'improved' cerebellum mean for learning ?

Personal experience is that learning, although easy - NEVER made sense.

Want to tie the improved sensor cortex, motor cortex, cerebellum into a tendency towards logically connected thinking.

Learning should construct a building - what we accomplish instead is to build part of the 1st floor (which shortly after collapses) since the ground floor isn't in place ... ... to put in window frames into level 2 before the foundations have been laid. The big picture (building) doesn't form because of our prediposition towards assessing information retention - none of which is required for continuing progression. This isn't true of the development of natural language though, which we progressively develop through constant repetition.

A bit like the development of a bowling machine - initially set on low - as we develop - the speed of the machine ramps up to full on.

So - a connection between motor activities and learning - where we can draw an analogy through repetition/training in both - to become progressively (cerebellar learning) better at both.

Have more of an affinity for fine motor and fine language skills (to be able to express oneself) than simple system regurgitation (what schools expect) of facts.
IE input (idea) needs to balance/co-ordnate with output (understanding) ?

amberwillow
07-18-15, 03:42 AM
Interesting that you are referring to the child in the masculine... The checklist would not always gel well with the outward behaviour of little girls with ADHD. Certainly, social language development is often more complex in little girls (in my experience).

SB_UK
07-18-15, 04:07 AM
Sorry post-edit

Despite the delay - Significantly, Shaw and Rapaport found that the primary motor cortex developed faster in ADHD children.Trying to make some connection to sensory, motor development and cerebellar co-ordination.

IE increased development of the sensory system (covered ie highly sensitive person = ADHD), parallel development of the motor system (quote above) and the necessary development of the cerebellum to accommodate (HANDLE) the change.

This takes us back around to the idea of the connection between movement and learning.

Also of note - physical clumsiness in ADDer children - frequently falling down.

-*-

I'm wondering whether what ADDers need is the equivalent of primary school extending not from 5 to 11 but from 8 to 14 years of age - with gross and fine motor tasks (no heavy shift to words) from running to drawing occupying the period to 8 yrs.

The cerebellum is one of the most important structures involved in sensorimotor coordinationSo even simply the act of repetitively catching a tennis ball - progressively being thrown faster at the ADDer ?
Things like that.

It is true that when we look at the ADDer child - if it were a machine - you'd suspect that all manner of joints had become loose, needed tightening ie there's a problem of balance/co-ordination which must mean that the system regulating sensorimotor balance isn't itself tuned.

-*-

Question - throw the ADDer outside to play, play, play up until 8 years of age - to develop the ADDer's improved cerebellum which can take the switch from gross, fine locomotor into the next phase of human development ie words, mind ... ... ... ?
What does the 'improved' cerebellum mean for learning ?

Personal experience is that learning, although easy - NEVER made sense.

Want to tie the improved sensor cortex, motor cortex, cerebellum into a tendency towards logically connected thinking.

Learning should construct a building - what we accomplish instead is to build part of the 1st floor (which shortly after collapses) since the ground floor isn't in place ... ... to put in window frames into level 2 before the foundations have been laid. The big picture (building) doesn't form because of our prediposition towards assessing information retention - none of which is required for continuing progression. This isn't true of the development of natural language though, which we progressively develop through constant repetition.

A bit like the development of a bowling machine - initially set on low - as we develop - the speed of the machine ramps up to full on.

So - a connection between motor activities and learning - where we can draw an analogy through repetition/training in both - to become progressively (cerebellar learning) better at both.

Have more of an affinity for fine motor and fine language skills (to be able to express oneself) than simple system regurgitation (what schools expect) of facts.
IE input (idea) needs to balance/co-ordnate with output (understanding) ?

-*-

At the emergence of modern man - our new capacity (mind) would have offered human beings the evolutionary advantage of synchronizing efforts in a progressively more abstract way.
Completely unprecedented.

We should have switched from competing between one another for eg food to collaborating all together for eg food for thought - which shifts into the definition of wholesome fun when the groundwork's laid.

So - if communication is the character conceded by the development of mind/language ... ... and we can consider it an evolutionary development of the classical sensory - cerebellar - motor triumviracy or afferent - interneurone - efferent scaled ... ... then what we need to do - is hone through repetition language in much the same way that we hone through repetition motor skills (how to catch a ball) ... ... ... but (of course) the key factor in communication must come down (eventually) to the person who is talking being understood by the person who is listening.

How do we determine that the person who is talking is making sense and that the person who is listening hears the sense ie that there's nothing that's 'lost in translation' from mind to mind ?

We need minds to be of the same basic structure (complete minds - wisdom) meaning that both people are in effect looking in the same direction - and so can see (can ask the right questions) when one individual tries to draw another's attention to something that they've just seen.

What's the connection between wisdom (mind, cognition, cortex) and cerebellum ?

Want to suggest that the cerebral cortex ?

cerebrum -> cerebellum
tree canopy -> tree roots

SB_UK
07-18-15, 04:15 AM
Interesting that you are referring to the child in the masculine... The checklist would not always gel well with the outward behaviour of little girls with ADHD. Certainly, social language development is often more complex in little girls (in my experience).

Which sits at the core of the ADHD, ADD-I divide, I think.

In a girl.

Similar pattern of developmental delay ie not able to interact with girls of her own age. Excessively submissive - does what she's told - doesn't react with ODD - however - under the hood - doesn't really understand why she's doing what she's doing. Also physically clumsy.
Confusion - confused mind. Very sensitive - particularly to loud noises.
So - a greater tendency to want to please.

This idea feeds into 'systematizing' male archetype and 'empathizing' as female archetype mind - as the 2 qualities which when balance give mind.
Returning to the idea that rational (male) morality (female) - defines how the mind should develop ie that in the absence of either sense or morality we cannot be said to have a mind - with wisdom by deinition wrapping these 2 qualities.

More subtle in a girl - but as we know - medical establishment is overwhelmingly skewed towards making ADHD diagnoses in boys.

mildadhd
07-18-15, 04:40 AM
Random thoughts for discussion.(please leave room for learning, neurophysiological corrections appreciated)

Experiences that stimulate the PLAY system and the SEEKING system (safe feelings) promote development of the prefrontal cortex.

Children PLAY when feeling safe.

Experiences that stimulate FEAR system and the SEEKING system (threat) do not promote the development of the prefrontal cortex.

Children don't PLAY when feeling threatened.

All people are born with overactive unregulated raw emotional response systems.

The prefrontal higher ability to self-regulate raw emotions develops as we age.

Older people with ADHD have a slightly overactive SEEKING system, due to slightly less regulated/developed prefrontal cortex.

That is why we often seek secondary types stimulation to "help" the under stimulated prefrontal cortex, inhibit the overactive SEEKING system.

ADHD medication reduces PLAY in young children.

mildadhd
07-18-15, 05:05 AM
Many of us older people with ADHD, may have been born with a more hypersensitive temperament, that made it much easier for us to feel threatened and less likely to feel safe, than someone born with a more robust emotional temperament.


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mildadhd
07-18-15, 05:49 AM
Which sits at the core of the ADHD, ADD-I divide, I think.

In a girl.

Similar pattern of developmental delay ie not able to interact with girls of her own age. Excessively submissive - does what she's told - doesn't react with ODD - however - under the hood - doesn't really understand why she's doing what she's doing. Also physically clumsy.
Confusion - confused mind. Very sensitive - particularly to loud noises.
So - a greater tendency to want to please.

This idea feeds into 'systematizing' male archetype and 'empathizing' as female archetype mind - as the 2 qualities which when balance give mind.
Returning to the idea that rational (male) morality (female) - defines how the mind should develop ie that in the absence of either sense or morality we cannot be said to have a mind - with wisdom by deinition wrapping these 2 qualities.

More subtle in a girl - but as we know - medical establishment is overwhelmingly skewed towards making ADHD diagnoses in boys.



In early life Prof Panksepp's "free play" research found very little difference in the play (without toys) no matter the persons gender.

Wondering which factors are biological and which factors are learned within random societies expectations.

There is no doubting there is some biological differences between genders, especially as we age.

There is also overlapping qualities between different genders to consider.

Complex topic.

P

sarahsweets
07-18-15, 10:40 AM
ADHD medication reduces PLAY in young children.

Baloney. I encourage you yo read this :(http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145739)

Medication does not reduce play in children. Thats absurd. Children taking medication do not feel less safe and therefore have abnormal brain develpment. Medicated children play just as much as unmedicated or neurtypical kids.

I dont see why anyone who loves there child would ever wipe the idea of meds off the table because : "they seem so dangerous, no kiddie speed, I want to try play therapy first etc"
Fear mongering on the internet is the most responsible for stimulant paranoia. Its fine if you dont want to try meds first (although if you child is severe I dont know wht,) but you shouldnt refuse the mere mention of meds as a possibility....if your geniune interest is to help your child, then ultimately you will do whatever it takes.
Peripheral, How old is your child? Do they have adhd?

Flory
07-18-15, 10:47 AM
Cracking post Sarah ......xx

SB_UK
07-18-15, 02:03 PM
Is play synonymous with having fun ?

Having fun - motivational in and of itself

Tempting to link PLAY to cerebellar learning eg PLAYing sport and co-ordination between the SENSORY and the MOTOR system.

What is PLAY ?
Cerebellar education ? increasing personal quality ie playing sports -> word play ?

The vast majority of comedians use word play.

SB_UK
07-18-15, 02:14 PM
Thinking - that is intrinsically motivational PLAY - the new education ?

People, these days - like computer games.

The games are becoming more and more realistic- requiring very great dexterity/co-ordination ......

For an individual to want to PLAY - is there an inbuilt assumption that PLAYing is education the cerebellum - and when the individual accelerates past the quality required to play the game - that they gravitate to another game in which greater co-ordination is required.

Children like simple music - as we grow older simpler music hurts - and we turn to more complex music.

Cerebellar education ?

Luvmybully
07-18-15, 02:16 PM
Which sits at the core of the ADHD, ADD-I divide, I think.

In a girl.

Similar pattern of developmental delay ie not able to interact with girls of her own age. Excessively submissive - does what she's told - doesn't react with ODD - however - under the hood - doesn't really understand why she's doing what she's doing. Also physically clumsy.
Confusion - confused mind. Very sensitive - particularly to loud noises.
So - a greater tendency to want to please.



My adhd daughter is the exact opposite of this!

Physical development, gross motor skills, very advanced at all life stages, but VERY proniounced in the earliest stages.

Climbing cabinets and out of her crib by 8 months old, running by 10 months. She started gymnastics and dance at 8 years old and excelled at it. She was physically capable at a very young age, but just ran around the room because she was completely overwhelmed and not yet capable of following the instructions.

Extremely defiant. To the point where ODD was being considered by the developmental pediatrician when she was just 3 years old.

Her language development and cognitive development was also very advanced. She was reading fluently by 4 years old. But she had to stand and walk around the room to do it. Do a headstand against the wall with a book in front of her. Sit her at a table and she could not focus long enough to read.

By the time she was 8 we started her on meds, and her pediatrician was just stunned at how articulate and self aware she was. She was able to have very intelligent conversations about what and how she was feeling, how the meds made her feel and how they helped her. She was a primary part of her own treatment. This was a 2nd grader!

I think ADHD is so varied and different in how it affects children. Each individuals strenghts and weaknesses and personalities, family dynamics, siblings.......there is SO much that affects children.

SB_UK
07-18-15, 02:20 PM
Nature Neuroscience 4, 555 - 556 (2001)

Playing tennis with the cerebellumMarco Iacoboni1 (http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v4/n6/full/nn0601_555.html#a1)
AbstractA functional imaging study in which subjects tracked different targets with eye movements and a joystick provides evidence that the cerebellum is involved in eye–hand coordination. The data suggest that internal models used for motor control may also be involved in cognition.

I am a tennis fanatic, and the key to success on the tennis court is eye–hand coordination. The ability to coordinate the movements of one's eyes with one's hands is a critical skill not only in sport, but also in everyday life.


eye - sensory

cerebellum - interneurone

hand - motor


Movement - selfish (ie you do it yourself)



How do we fit mind into that paradigm


speak/write <-ADHD

cerebellum
listen/read <- ADD-I


Communication - social (ie you need somebody else to do it)

Luvmybully
07-18-15, 02:25 PM
Kid-wise - you can tell something's wrong from age 4yrs - slow to pick up language.
Then from 4yes to approaching 10 years now.
Behaves 3 - 4 years younger than age in all aspects of life.
Then - see full-blown ADHD as in tick all boxes on wikipedia page for ADHD.

It's a well-constructed list - I can confirm the presence of all of these at 8 yrs - but prior to 8 years - the most significant observation was the developmental delay - the kid really does behave like he's several years younger.
It's quaint for the first few years ie there's something nice about that transition from innocent baby into far from innocent mind .... ... but when we start to see friends of his (he's the oldest in his class) run rings around him with words / ideas - it becomes quite painful.

Personally - the key observation re:assessment of ADHD at an early age - which is barely discussed on ADDF - to my mind re:ADHD is the developmental delay.

-*-

The key problem (we;ve had this many times over) is that if you've inappropriate impulsiveness for your age - we see this in him - then he'll run across a road - any road just to see a friend - never looking before he crosses. My first dog did exactly that - and ONLY once - and she died the first time she did it - after being hit by a car.

Thing is - is that you can't make a 4/5 year old fit into a class with 8/9 year olds - because they're just not ready; it's just plain dangerous.


Again, this is just not my daugter, at all.

Her language development was advanced for her age. She was so mature compared to her peers, and academically ahead of them, her 1st grade teacher put her in charge of a reading group, for her whole class.

She was always, always strangely mature for her age.

By6th grade she was scheduling her own appointments with her therapist, around her test schedule at school.

Her therapist had to make a sign for herself that she put in her desk every time my daughter saw her, with a reminder of her age, because she was so far beyond her age the therapist would forget she was so young.

There just isn't an adhd mold that fits all.

SB_UK
07-18-15, 02:35 PM
My adhd daughter is the exact opposite of this!

Physical development, gross motor skills, very advanced at all life stages, but VERY proniounced in the earliest stages.

Climbing cabinets and out of her crib by 8 months old, running by 10 months. She started gymnastics and dance at 8 years old and excelled at it. She was physically capable at a very young age, but just ran around the room because she was completely overwhelmed and not yet capable of following the instructions.

Extremely defiant. To the point where ODD was being considered by the developmental pediatrician when she was just 3 years old.

Her language development and cognitive development was also very advanced. She was reading fluently by 4 years old. But she had to stand and walk around the room to do it. Do a headstand against the wall with a book in front of her. Sit her at a table and she could not focus long enough to read.

By the time she was 8 we started her on meds, and her pediatrician was just stunned at how articulate and self aware she was. She was able to have very intelligent conversations about what and how she was feeling, how the meds made her feel and how they helped her. She was a primary part of her own treatment. This was a 2nd grader!

I think ADHD is so varied and different in how it affects children. Each individuals strenghts and weaknesses and personalities, family dynamics, siblings.......there is SO much that affects children.

Intellectually advanced - attracted to this idea - but this type isn't often mentioned.

Perhaps it's just that those with a developmental delay preferentially capture the diagnosis.

Would be VERY interesting to try and obtain figures on %ADDers advanced vs delayed.

Yes - have an advanced 1st and a delayed 2nd child.

The developmental delay becomes much more complicated to factor in.

SB_UK
07-18-15, 02:36 PM
The wikipedia page provides a list which describes is my kid # 2 to the letter.
Absolutely word perfect definition.

Doesn't describe me at all though.

Luvmybully
07-18-15, 02:57 PM
ADHD medication reduces PLAY in young children.

I have to agree with Sarah about this being simply untrue.

Medication is not a sedative, if it makes a child no longer want to play, that child is not responding well to it.

I would never continue to give my child a medication that made her not even want to play anymore!

For my daughter, meds allowed her to focus on directions. She was an excellent dancer and gymnast. With meds she could remember routines. She was a competitive dancer for most of her childhood.

Luvmybully
07-18-15, 03:00 PM
Intellectually advanced - attracted to this idea - but this type isn't often mentioned.

Perhaps it's just that those with a developmental delay preferentially capture the diagnosis.

Would be VERY interesting to try and obtain figures on %ADDers advanced vs delayed.

Yes - have an advanced 1st and a delayed 2nd child.

The developmental delay becomes much more complicated to factor in.

For my daughter, the intense, constant, reckless. non-stop activity was what led to her diagnosis.

She NEVER slept through the night. She didn't really nap during the day.

She had violent tantrums several times a day.

For 2 years, we did not take her anywhere, she could not hadle the stimulation.

SB_UK
07-18-15, 03:13 PM
she could not hadle the stimulation.

sensory overload

-*-

ADDers as Highly Sensitive to Sensory information as the commonality.
The problem with High Sensitivity occurs when we're in an environment which over-stimulates.
Stress reaction - 'overcome' with meds.


the pained sensory overload

SB_UK
07-18-15, 03:18 PM
1. Emotionally, highly-sensitive individuals are easily overstimulated up to a point where they may experience great pain or great joy.

As reported before, many of these people learn to mask this gift of sensitivity, intuition and creativity because they do not know how to deal with the overstimulation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roya-r-rad-ma-psyd/highly-sensitive-people_b_1286508.html

SB_UK
07-18-15, 03:32 PM
The sensitivity leads into the often repeated here suggestion that ADHD is actually attention surfeit (highly sensitive) trait which becomes a disorder in an excessively stimulating environment.

The slightly irritating thing is that the over-stimulated take stimulants - but factor in the paradoxical nature of stimulants in ADDers (to calm us down) and we don't have the need for stimulants for stimulation, but the need for stimulants for stress-relief

- which are the two sides of dopamine.

SB_UK
07-18-15, 03:36 PM
How do we know for sure a child has ADHD at age 4?

Signs of discomfort which disappear when the child is placed into a peaceful, relaxed environment ?

SB_UK
07-18-15, 03:54 PM
Signs of discomfort which disappear when the child is placed into a peaceful, relaxed environment ?

Children PLAY when feeling safe.



So Cerebellar education (PLAY) occurs when in a non-threatening low stimulation environment (SAFE).

Mixing HSP with ADHD - HSPs do not do well when watched, when challeneged, when set deadlines, when 'forced', when 'on the clock', when performing under threat of 'harm'.

-*-

The cerebellum as the seat of 'quality' ?

PLAY (having fun, hyperfocus) as the basis for developing personal QUALITY in all things (from art to sport to words).

mildadhd
07-18-15, 04:01 PM
Baloney. I encourage you yo read this :(http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145739)

Medication does not reduce play in children. Thats absurd. Children taking medication do not feel less safe and therefore have abnormal brain develpment. Medicated children play just as much as unmedicated or neurtypical kids.

I dont see why anyone who loves there child would ever wipe the idea of meds off the table because : "they seem so dangerous, no kiddie speed, I want to try play therapy first etc"
Fear mongering on the internet is the most responsible for stimulant paranoia. Its fine if you dont want to try meds first (although if you child is severe I dont know wht,) but you shouldnt refuse the mere mention of meds as a possibility....if your geniune interest is to help your child, then ultimately you will do whatever it takes.
Peripheral, How old is your child? Do they have adhd?

ADHD medication inhibits the primary PLAY response system, so does playing.

I encourage you to read about the primary unconditioned emotional response systems (emotional operating systems) along with secondary and tertiary, processing levels of control.

And if you look, I never said any of those things you wrote, who is really fear mongering (shaming) who?

Capitalizing PLAY means I am referring to a primary emotional response system involved.

How do we know for sure a child has ADHD at age 4?


P

SB_UK
07-18-15, 04:07 PM
Finally

cerebellar training -

from music to sport to word usage

Importance of repetition.

So - unlike standard education - where book learning comes and goes

- and like riding a bike - once cerebellarly learnt - never forgotten; a better learning paradigm.

mildadhd
07-18-15, 04:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OriFlkeTqbU

mildadhd
07-18-15, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Peripheral

ADHD medication reduces PLAY in young children

I have to agree with Sarah about this being simply untrue.

Medication is not a sedative, if it makes a child no longer want to play, that child is not responding well to it.

I would never continue to give my child a medication that made her not even want to play anymore!

For my daughter, meds allowed her to focus on directions. She was an excellent dancer and gymnast. With meds she could remember routines. She was a competitive dancer for most of her childhood.



Capitalizing PLAY means I am referring to a primary instinctual response system.

All mammals have a PLAY system in their brains.

What possible treatment options would you recommend, if you where not sure a child has ADHD, at the age of 4?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KanfLqKXYg
(P 7-8)..I am not questioning the genetically-based temperamental variability that contributes to the diagnosis of ADHD, and the high efficacy of psychostimulants in reducing impulsive behavior (Faraone, et al., 2006).

These are well-established facts.

I simply assert that we have, at our fingertips, better social-emotional, maturation-promoting tools to address such problems than are currently widely used to promote childhood development at home or within school systems.

At a societal level, we have yet to institutionalize the power of PLAY to promote desirable mind maturation.

(Jaak Panksepp, Phd)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242642/#!po=25.0000



P

mildadhd
07-18-15, 05:27 PM
Play: Free play, in which children develop their own activities, including rough-and-tumble activities that, as the term play implies, involves physical activity such as running, jumping, play fighting, and wrestling, are increasingly recognized as essential components of a child’s development. Both human and animal studies have provided evidence that periods of play improve social skills, impulse inhibition and attention (Panksepp, 2007; Pellis et al., 2010) and result in specific neurochemical and dendritic changes in many neurons (Bell et al., 2010; Panksepp, 2008), especially in those brain areas in which ADHD children are deficient. Therefore, long-term provision of more opportunities for physical play may be an effective, non-medicinal therapy for reducing some of the disruptive behaviors of ADHD and facilitating brain development in children diagnosed with ADHD.

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/ADHD_and_Play


"..periods of play improve social skills, impulse inhibition and attention.."



P

mildadhd
07-19-15, 03:45 AM
(p 15)..we (at the Memorial Foundation for Lost Children in Bowling Green, Ohio) routinely counseled fathers in families with young ADHD children to expend special effort to have daily periods of happy rough-and-tumble play with their children. Their feedback was consistently that such daily activities were beneficial...


(p 16)..broad-scale brain gene expression analysis has indicated that activity of about of a third of the 1,200 brain genes we evaluated in frontal and posterior cortical regions are significantly modified by play within an hour of a 30 min play session (Kroes, Burgdorf Panksepp and Moskal, 2006, Unpublished observations from Falk Center for Molecular Therapeutics, Northwestern University).

I have a poster size painting of me playing football, painted by my son when he was in early elementary school.

He laughed so hard while running away with the football, as I chased him acting as if I was going to tackle him.



P

sarahsweets
07-19-15, 05:31 AM
ADHD medication inhibits the primary PLAY response system, so does playing.

I encourage you to read about the primary unconditioned emotional response systems (emotional operating systems) along with secondary and tertiary, processing levels of control.

And if you look, I never said any of those things you wrote, who is really fear mongering (shaming) who?

Capitalizing PLAY means I am referring to a primary emotional response system involved.

How do we know for sure a child has ADHD at age 4?


P

I never intended to shame you and I never said you were guilty of fear mongering. If you feel that way, that has nothing to do with me. Maybe I dont grasp your theory, but I need some other evidence to support what you are saying. I mean something other than the source you are already using; something with a little more info regarding specifics about adhd medication not being good for a child of four due to it making children afraid and not safe. I just cant wrap my head around this. Does your child/children have adhd? When were they diagnosed and what is their treatment plan?

SB_UK
07-19-15, 05:33 AM
So - the key question would be - how does PLAY change the CNS to produce a change in behaviour ?

We know eg producing art, playing an instrument, playing a sport results in cerebellar development ... ...

what do we know about the ADDer ?

Increased information handling (HSP).

Cerebellum must develop to handle increased information.

Now ADDer # 2

1. Poor posture
2. Cosntantly falling
3. Clumsy
4. Slurred spech

Ahhh!!!

Articulate.

Poorly articulate.

Poorly articulated.

So - it's simply a case of using PLAY to develop the ADDer's cerebellum - so that the increased sensory information may be handled.

What happens in the absence of infomration handling ?

Information overload ?

Sensory overload.

-*-

Sensory overload -> pain

Pleasure part of the CNS pain network.

-*-

Development of the CEREBELLUM through PLAY with the capacity to handle information.

Information - science - observational data

Cerebellum -> <- Cortex

Handling observational scientific data = wisdom

-*-

Overcome pleasure/pain duality at stage wisdom

ooooh! That's a novel route.

-*-

So -

To handle observational scientific data (systematizing)
To handle emotional data (empathizing)
To handle the sensory stream (sensory)
^
|
3 levels of increased sensitivity in man

But with increased sensitivity - need to train the cerebellum through PLAY to handle the information.

Cerebellum trained through repetition.

SB_UK
07-19-15, 05:40 AM
interneurone -> afferent neurone -> efferent neurone -> back to start

| -> / -> \

/ | \ <- the model of evolution

| - consciousness

which needs to seed duals

/ \

male archetype first eg glutamine ie +
female archetype second eg GABA ie -

BALANCE.

daveddd
07-19-15, 12:40 PM
For my daughter, the intense, constant, reckless. non-stop activity was what led to her diagnosis.

She NEVER slept through the night. She didn't really nap during the day.

She had violent tantrums several times a day.

For 2 years, we did not take her anywhere, she could not hadle the stimulation.

this was me

i was also athletic

my fine motor skills like handwriting and typing were and are atrocious though

Luvmybully
07-19-15, 01:21 PM
Capitalizing PLAY means I am referring to a primary instinctual response system.

All mammals have a PLAY system in their brains.

What possible treatment options would you recommend, if you where not sure a child has ADHD, at the age of 4?



I am not seeing your distinction between the play I was referring to and the play you are referring to.

Children play. Yes they do! It is a vital part of their development. Yes it is!

ADHD medications do not stop a child from playing.

And I am not a Dr or therapist. I could not develop a treatment plan for someone else's child.

A treatment plan is a very individualized thing, depending on what symtpoms are the most in need of addressing. Not every child with adhd will have the same set of symptoms that need to be addresed.

Also, family circumstances will play a huge role in what is the most pressing issue to address.

Luvmybully
07-19-15, 01:23 PM
this was me

i was also athletic

my fine motor skills like handwriting and typing were and are atrocious though

My daughter has a hand tremor. ADHD meds made it worse, but the benefits they gave her outweighed the lousy handwriting.

Now she is not on meds, and still has atrocious handwriting.

Luvmybully
07-19-15, 01:27 PM
"..periods of play improve social skills, impulse inhibition and attention.."



P

when my youngest was in elementary school, we had it put into her IEP that recess could NEVER be taken away from her, for any reason.

Her wonderful kindergarten teacher is the one that insisted on that. She was fabulous for my daughter!

Flory
07-19-15, 02:25 PM
Children didn't want to play with me off of meds because I was too boisterous and quick to emote.....couldn't follow the social intricacies of other children ...in fact I had no friends in junior school other than another little boy with aspergers

I'd say being unmedicated in early childhood caused a lot of damage on my social development that I'm still making up for today that was WITH a diagnosis.....

I was bullied and tormented relentlessly at that age for being weird and different

Barkley often talks about the great difference in children that have been medicated early on compared with those later and how they have a much better chance than the latter.

If my children have ADHD I will have absolutely no qualms about medicating it as soon as possible.....I do not wish my life and all of the vile things that have happened to me on my worst enemy let alone my child

SB_UK
07-19-15, 03:00 PM
sensorimotor
eye - sensory
cerebellum - interneurone
hand - motor

Movement - selfish [ie you don't need others to do it] (ie you do it yourself)

How do we fit mind into that paradigm?

languagespeak/write
cerebellum
listen/read

Communication - social (ie you need somebody else to do it)

The cerebellum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellum), or "little brain," is behind the brainstem and below the occipital lobe of the cerebrum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebrum) in humans. Its purposes include the coordination of fine sensorimotor tasks, and it may be involved in some cognitive functions, such as language.

SB_UK
07-19-15, 03:03 PM
sensorimotor
eye - sensory
cerebellum - interneurone
hand - motor

Movement - selfish [ie you don't need others to do it] (ie you do it yourself)

How do we fit mind into that paradigm?

language
speak/write
cerebellum
listen/read

Communication - social (ie you need somebody else to do it)
The cerebellum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellum), or "little brain," is behind the brainstem and below the occipital lobe of the cerebrum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebrum) in humans. Its purposes include the coordination of fine sensorimotor tasks, and it may be involved in some cognitive functions, such as language.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_brain

Peripheral's Panksepp video on the rat tickler
PLAY as an ancient module within the brain.
Cerebellum
Little brain
An ancient structure.

-*-

Perhaps the very essence of the brain requires the 'education' of CEREBELLAR neural networks via training/repetition
- representing what we call PLAY.

The cerebellum (>1/2 the brains nerves) should be seen as the master regulator of the brain.

-*-

What is ADHD ?
Increased sensitivity requiring Increased training of the cerebellum.
Over-stimulation (lost information) when netowrks in development are exposed to more information than they can handle.

SB_UK
07-19-15, 03:16 PM
cerebellar learning
Most theories that assign learning to the circuitry of the cerebellum are derived from the ideas of David Marr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Marr_%28neuroscientist%29)[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellum#cite_note-Marr-14) and James Albus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_S._Albus),[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellum#cite_note-Albus-29)

wikip cerebellum.

these facts taken together make a strong case that the learning, indeed, occurs inside the cerebellum

SB_UK
07-19-15, 03:41 PM
'PLAY' actually should be considered the proper learning modality for all organisms with brains - representing the development of the precursor structure - the cerebellar inter-neurone which expresses itself through dual cortical projections eg sensori- and motor.

mildadhd
07-19-15, 10:06 PM
'PLAY' actually should be considered the proper learning modality for all organisms with brains - representing the development of the precursor structure - the cerebellar inter-neurone which expresses itself through dual cortical projections eg sensori- and motor.



Might be easier if we consider the common PLAY operating system known in all mammals brains, first?

I will work on learning some of the neurophysiology this week.

Prof Panksepp knows a lot about the neurophysiology of all 7 of the known emotional operating systems.

This year I hope to gain more confidence about the actual neurophysiology of the sensory affects, homeostatic affects, and emotional affects operating systems, on all 3 levels of control better.

What if we think in some type of efferent-afferent/afferent-efferent development reciprocal, as we mature and higher levels of self control become more mature/dominant.

(In the natural order of maturity/development)

Layman guide

(Early implicit development before the age of 4*)
->Interneuron->Efferent->Interneuron->Afferent->Interneuron->

(Early explicit development/maturity after the age of 4*)
->Interneuron->Afferent->Interneuron->Efferent->Interneuron->

?

Thanks for introducing me to Interneurons.

There something about relationship in between, efferent and afferent?

Lots of interesting topics to consider?

One thing I was wondering...?Efferent->Interneuron<-Afferent ?

But am not sure why?

( curious, want to learn more about Interneuron some time)

Efferent (visceral)

Afferent (somatic)

Visceral motor neurone (efferent)

Somatic motor neurone (afferent)

Visceral sensory neurone (efferent)

Somatic sensory neurone (afferent)

?

Learning, correction?

Neurophysiological explanations appreciated!

Gives me a context.


Thanks


P

SB_UK
07-20-15, 02:56 AM
I think I see - so suggestions.

1
The emotions represent the cerebellum 'speaking' when it's not learning.
2
Visceral -> cerebellum movement
Somatic -> cerebellum language
3
Need for cerebellum movement 'learning' prior to cerebellar language 'learning
4
afferent -> interneurone -> efferent
efferent <- interneurone <- afferent
ie the above represents a loop - but the thing about the 'interneurone' is that (and this is the 1d evolutionary motif) - interneurone fields info in 1 direction regardless.

-*-

The lovely part of concentrating on cerebellar learning - connects us back to the idea of living in the moment - as we bypass the 8 second delay of cortex and get to operate in real-time eg riding a bike, tennis.

Language use also.

-*-

Cerebellar learning changes 'us' for good - the rest - learning systems which don't make sense ie what education does - is easily forgotten.
You can't forget to ride a bike - or to play tennis or write - once learnt.

-*-

The ADDer is happiest turning the handle on cerebellar learnt (thinking deactivated) learning.
Cerebellar learning through repetition / play.

From repetitively skipping (eg hipop dance moves - visceral) to reciting (over and over again) age-matched - trying to speak more clearly and quickly - texts (rap music - somatic).

Reciting this clearly would be an exercise in cerebellar excellence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEBGCOCxLgA

articulated

SB_UK
07-20-15, 03:05 AM
4
afferent -> interneurone -> efferent
efferent <- interneurone <- afferent
ie the above represents a loop - but the thing about the 'interneurone' is that (and this is the 1d evolutionary motif) - interneurone fields info in 1 direction regardless.



adjective: articulated


having two or more sections connected by a flexible joint.

... the importance of sensorimotor cortico-cerebellar loops in the fine control of voluntary movements.http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v17/n9/abs/nn.3773.html

The basic concept of the Marr–Albus theory is that the climbing fiber serves as a "teaching signal" ... ...


climbing |
parallel / \

/|\

=
Boy's surface (https://imaginary.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery-full/public/5_-_small.png?itok=yDfF5l2J)
(http://data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAGkAaQMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAEAAgMBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgYDBAUBB//EADMQAAEDAgMFBQgCAwAAAAAAAAEAAgMEEQUSIQYTMVFhIkFxg ZEUMkJSobHB0SPhFWNy/8QAGQEBAAMBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECBAUD/8QAIBEBAAICAgMAAwAAAAAAAAAAAAECAxEEEhMhMRRBYf/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8A+QoiKyoiIgIiICItmlw6sqxenppHg/FwHqdFMRM/BrIuy3ZnEHD3qZvR0h/AWKfZ7E4W5hCyUd+6fe3kbH0V/FfW9DlojgWuLXAtcDYgixCLzBEXiD1EU4Ynzysiibme82aFIgs 8FHU1GsMEjxzA09VaMOwKClaHzgTTcyOy3wH5XRe0jwWunEmY3 aRUW4HXuGsbG/8ATx+FL/A1xNmiInkH/wBKyG5OnEraij3QvxeeJXr+JQcnDcBipWiWtaJpuOXi1v7XUMx tYaDkpk9VB5adHDXovWuGKxqqEN8VmjlJaCtcRuc6w4c+Sz5bA AcArUrMSmGDE8Np8Vis+zKgDsTAa+B5hUeeGSnmfDM3LIw2cOq v4Njoq/thTjPT1jQAX/xv6kaj6X9As3KxRrvCVcREWBD1WPY+mD31FSRcsAY3pfU/YKuKxbGVTWVM9I8gb5odH1Ivcen2XrhmPJGxYnkjgkMl3hswzM OmmhClKLFYb2IXQiZ2hsPZGw3Y0BYiVB7zdQL1o6rJvPJI4y42 WEPvIAF1qWJosrfIGi6bdS7tgFgdSe9ZnOa5t7LSqI3Mq5AfmK lvCBZVEnHVczacg4SL8RM23oVvZrlcbamcCCmpwdS4yHy0H3Po s/InWORXURFykCmx7o3tfG4te03a4cQVBeqBcMKx2GuY2Krc2Kpt a50a/wAOR6LplljYhfPFv0eM11G3LHLnjHwSdoeXJa8fI16saXSSIE8 liMPUqXtbSASzQi9wszC2VmZhuPsunFhqCPK8OHELqUcge3qOK 0ZG2KyUTstQB82itPuEmMNyzsePibr5Ln5l1sZbeCJ3eHWXLDQ AXOIDQLkk6Bef6BpDQXvIDWi5J7gqjidWa2sfNrl4MB7mjh+/NbuM4qKm9PTH+AHtO+c/pchc7kZovPWPiBERZQREQeovEQW/C5N/hlO7va3IfEaLoUTt3M2/uu0d4Ku7L1IEktI4+/22eI4/S3orNDHme0dV1cFu9IlLNVR5XEBY6Zp37TwtqVKrz+0EuPZPBT gaGi/Nevk16Qx7RVgo8L3wj3hEjQBe3G6otdiVTW6SvtHfSNug/tWnbKUDCI2d75x9AVS1z+Te3brv0kXhXq8WVAiIgIiICIiCcMr 4ZWSxHK9huCr/AIPWxV1M2ePR3B7PlPJfPVnoqyooZt7TPyu7x3OHIhe+HNOOf4 l9KlAI7QBWECxsFXItrGlg9opHZv8AW/Q+q1MR2lqKmN0VMz2dh0LgbuI/C2TycURsebV17aqtbBG68dOLEjvceP6XEXiLnXtNrblAiIqgiI gIiICIiAiIgIiICIiAiIgIiIP/2Q==)
Parallel complete generating (somatic level):
... the importance of sensorimotor cortico-cerebellar loops in the fine control of voluntary movements.
Feedforward processing: The cerebellum differs from most other parts of the brain (especially the cerebral cortex) in that the signal processing is almost entirely feedforward—that is, signals move unidirectionally through the system from input to output.

SB_UK
07-20-15, 03:30 AM
So

making sense -> cerebellum <- being receptive to sense

Goal ?

Achieving balance in what one thinks and observational data.
The generation of a worldview which makes sense.

Failure to handle information - indicates that understanding (Cerebellar circuitry) is incomplete - whilst incomplete - information is not handled - information overload - PAIN
- Pleasure as part of the pain network

- required - an internally held predominantly cerebellar learnt/educated network which can handle (understand) human context
- all information (observational held) -> wisdom
No pain as no overload (failure to handle) information

Happiness as we transcend the PAIN/pleasure* paradigm.

* It's not what it seems and is simply temporary respite from PAIN.

SB_UK
07-20-15, 03:40 AM
The key word to describe the cerebellum - balance
The key words to describe homeostasis and emotion - balance (the place where we'd like to be)

The genomic Tree of Life -> no further evolution occurs at this level in man - we've arrested
-> hands over to ->
The cerebellar arbor vitae (neural Tree of Life) -> plenty of scope for further evolution here.

Genome evolution - to develop 1 structure.
Cerebellar evolution - to develop diversity ie all art forms - not just one.

-*-

A fundamental switch from 'material world' to 'informational world' occurring at stage wisdom (understanding of context).

-*-

The root basis to material world existence being food; craving food.
Not consistent with 'quality'
- 'craving material world factors ie food, power, money'
can not be consistent with
- 'craving quality'

Quality requires repetitive training of neurally appointed processes
- until one *becomes* better.

You canNOT buy quality.
Need to become quality.

-*-

An arrest in global quality from the 80's attributed to failed cerebellar education
- with systematizing disciplines of the cortex but not cerebellum became popular.
People did not become better as they progressed in their appointed wage-slvery associated task.
Or developed 1 tiny system (which paid) - ignoring all others (which didn't).

Return to idea of jack of all trades vs master of one
- greater cerebellar diversity.

Monoculture seeded by current educational/workplace demands.
You become necessarily limited through competition for money.

SB_UK
07-20-15, 03:59 AM
practice, practice, practice until your fingers bleed, then practice some more
-noting that a scientific understanding of reality unlocks the compulsion in behaviour.

Understanding context puts 'it' all into perspective :-).

SB_UK
07-20-15, 04:08 AM
How do we know for sure a child has ADHD at age 4?In the absence of an adverse personal environment - some reactivity to information ie loud noises, crawling/walking late, poor posture, clumsy, poor autonomic control

ps that's interesting

- cerebellar regulation of visceral via the motor system ie linking physical balance in with autonomic (ie sns/pns) control.

ADHD - symptom eg bedwetting.
Connection physical clumsiness to PNS function via cerebellum.

-> disorders of autonomic system eg allergy,asthma,obesity

Learning fluid motion - qi gong, tai chi, yoga, gymnastics ?
- maybe running is enough ?

Becoming graceful in all things.
'grace' ful.
| interneurone - grace
graceful -> improved personal quality.

-*-

Back to barefoot running (learning proprioception/kinesthetics) - naturally - to build the cerebellar circuitry of physical balance, as the foundation for language which when used to carry the individual to understanding/wisdom - completes our lifecycle.

walk and talkto articulate

SB_UK
07-20-15, 04:48 AM
cortex (http://i1.sndcdn.com/avatars-000065220947-uycwow-original.jpg%253Fd53bf9f)(crown)
^
| <- climbing fibres of the cerebellum -> parallel fibres of cerebellum -> sensorimotor cortical (loops) back
v
(http://pre00.deviantart.net/ac0e/th/pre/i/2006/245/a/e/oak_tree_tattoo_sketch_by_kevinhink.jpg)cerebellum (http://i1.sndcdn.com/avatars-000065220947-uycwow-original.jpg%253Fd53bf9f) (roots)
(http://pre00.deviantart.net/ac0e/th/pre/i/2006/245/a/e/oak_tree_tattoo_sketch_by_kevinhink.jpg)

SB_UK
07-20-15, 09:24 AM
So ceebellar learning tasks - allows us to auto-pilot tasks.

Love auto-piloting tasks - this is an ADDer trait.

Hate having to stop and think - want the thinking to occur effortlessly.

So - happy ADDer - learning through repetition - application effortlessly through cerebllar learning.

Always found - maths + programming passes through this route - often have no recollection of performing maths / programming.

What's the dull part ?
Performing some task which is well beyond our reach - putting a tenns racquet in the hands of a 4 year old.
No satisfaction.
'Can't run before you can walk' - as a phrase which indicates progressively more granular/higher quality cerebellar learning.

mildadhd
07-20-15, 10:32 AM
Question (layman)

Can we experience vision, without the lower genetic (unconditioned, instinctual, affective) vision operating system?


P

mildadhd
07-20-15, 10:53 AM
Question (Layman)

Can we experience fear, without the lower genetic (unconditioned, instinctual, affective) FEAR operating system?


P

mildadhd
07-20-15, 11:14 AM
Consciousness begins in the brain stem area, first.

Learning is secondary.


"Brains begin building conscious minds not at the level of the cerebral cortex but rather at the level of the brain stem.

Primordial feelings are not only the first images generated by the brain but also immediate manifestations of sentience.

They are the protoself foundation for more complex levels of self.

These ideas run counter to widely accepted views, although Jaak Panksepp (cited earlier) has defended a comparable position and so has Rodolfo Llinas...


http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1716641&postcount=2

Antonio Damasio, "Self Comes To Mind", "Constructing The Conscious Brain", (Chapter: "Awakenings", A Preview of Main Ideas) p 23)


P

SB_UK
07-20-15, 11:24 AM
Development of quality

PLAY - CEREBELLAR TRAINING (REPETITION)
SEEKING (quality) - [SOMETHING TO PLAY]

Improved personal quality

SB_UK
07-20-15, 11:28 AM
...../ <- brainstem [consciousness] <- 1st

..() <- cerebellum <- combination -> learning - secondary
.()() <- sensori-motor duals

./

mildadhd
07-20-15, 11:49 AM
...../ <- brainstem [consciousness] <- 1st

..() <- cerebellum <- combination -> learning - secondary
.()() <- sensori-motor duals

./

I am not sure exactly what you mean here, but it could be that I am not familiar with your symbols?




P

SB_UK
07-20-15, 12:07 PM
- afferent - inter - efferent -
loop

- sensory - cerebellar - motor -
loop


reptilian - mammalian - primate (human) brain
[selfish].........................[social]

Is there any way for human beings to exist without showing properly (rationally) moral, social behaviour ?
No.

What would happen if human beings tried ?
All the bad stuff (there's only bad stuff) in society currently.

Solution.

To allow mammalian mind to choose human and not to choose reptilian mind.

Gecko.
Gordon Gekko.
'greed is good'

Silly chap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_iorX_MAw

reptilian - mammalian - primate (human) brain
[selfish].........................[social]
QUANTITY.....................QUALITY
GENOME .....................NEURAL CONNECTOME
PRIMITIVE.....................HIGHER

SB_UK
07-20-15, 12:13 PM
I am not sure exactly what you mean here, but it could be that I am not familiar with your symbols?




P

Consciousness as an underlying tendency which puts into place (its mark)
- a loop -
consisting of a 1d unidirectional flow - which balances with duals (complementary).

SB_UK
07-20-15, 12:24 PM
In humans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human), the neocortex is involved in higher functions such as sensory perception (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense), generation of motor commands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_cortex), spatial reasoning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_visualization_ability), conscious thought (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness) and language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language).Like the cerebellum - that's just walk [selfish ie we do alone] and talk [intrinsically social].

walk [selfish] -> reward system - primitive
talk [social] -> reward system - higher

Caught between 2 paradigms.

Cerebellar learning.

Motivated through reward.

Reward systems congratulate the organism for cerebellar 'learning'.

Better than parrot learning systems - because the individual does not become better (cerebellar learning) when parrot learning data without underlying explanatory context.

-*-

Standard Western education -> high grades -> good job -> primitive reward system activation ie reward from the primitive reward system.
That's not what organisms became about post-reptilian stage.

SB_UK
07-20-15, 12:41 PM
How do we know for sure a child has ADHD at age 4?Discomfort on sensory, emotional, homeostatic overload.

I couldn't handle loud noises.*
Tendency to avoid stimulation.
Can't stand (never could) the idea of fast-paced rides eg roller coasters. **
Didn't like loud, aggressive voices. ***

* from age 4
** from age 4
*** from age 4

mildadhd
07-20-15, 01:22 PM
LUST, CARE, GRIEF, PLAY, systems, are primary social emotional response systems.

Not Reptilian.

Mammalian.

Human awareness of these primary social emotional operating systems developing from the ground up from birth, (reciprocal top down begins to take control about the age of 4) = next evolutionary movement.


P

mildadhd
07-20-15, 01:45 PM
Even then, humans still depend on the primary SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, operating systems for survival.

It is the primary LUST, CARE, GRIEF, and PLAY, social emotional operating systems , that distinguish us from reptiles. (Focusing on emotional affects)

(Lower in the brain) SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, GRIEF, and PLAY. (Higher in the brain)


P

mildadhd
07-20-15, 02:16 PM
Using functional magnetic resonance imaging, we found that as the virtual predator grew closer, brain activity shifted from the ventromedial prefrontal cortex to the periaqueductal gray.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1730691&postcount=1


Reciprocal depends on experience.

A healthy balance between affective consciousness and cognitive consciousness?

P

SB_UK
07-20-15, 03:58 PM
{LUST, CARE, GRIEF, and PLAY
social

--- subjective ---

selfish
SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR}

^
|

awareness of

--- objective ---

-*-

1
individual model [anything goes]

2 [small locally distributed social groups]
social behaviour requires individuals to behave in a restricted way ie you can't go around hitting people on the head

3 [a single global species]
moral (functional) social behaviour requires social behaviour requires individuals to behave in a yet further restricted set of ways ie you can't go around hitting adjacent tribes on the heads

-*-

3 hierarchical layers ?

primtiive consciousness - individual preservation
social consciousness - individual preservation
global consciousness - individual preservation <- human complete mind - an understanding of context - how we work - the human mind as a scientific model of human context within the whole.

global consciousness - the human mind extends our consciousness from the wellbeing of the human species to the wellbeing of all species (food chains etc) to permit human wellbeing (survival) ?
The human mind has a habit of doing really bad (misguided) things to its resident body - a tendency which the mind permits and which the mind is going to have to stamp out
- from thalidomide to financial systems, from carcinogenic food additves to BPA.

The poorly constructed human mind is hellbent on its own demise.

sarahsweets
07-20-15, 04:00 PM
ADHD medication inhibits the primary PLAY response system, so does playing.
Where is their evidence of this theory?

mildadhd
07-20-15, 04:19 PM
Levels of Control in Brain Emotional-Affective
State controls (#1) and information Processing (#2 & #3)


1. Primary-Process, Basic-Primordial Affects (sub-neocortical)


i) Emotional Affects (Emotion Action Systems; Intentions-In-Actions)

ii) Homeostatic Affects (Brain-body Interoceptors: Hunger, Thirst, etc.)

iii) Sensory Affects (Exteroceptive-Sensory triggered pleasurable and unpleasurable/disgusting feelings)

2. Secondary-Process Emotions(Learning via Basal Ganglia)


i) Classical Conditioning (e.g. FEAR via basolateral & central amygdala)

ii) Instrumental & Operant Conditioning (SEEKING via Nucleus Accumbens)

iii) Behavioral & Emotional Habits (Largely unconscious-Dorsal Straitum)

3. Tertiary Affects and Neo-cortical "Awareness" Functions.


i) Cognitive Execution Functions: Thoughts & Planning (Frontal cortex)

ii) Emotional Ruminations & Regulations (Medial Frontal Regions)

iii) "Free-will" (Higher Working-Memory functions-Intention-to-Act)



Figure 1.4 A summary of the global levels of control within the brain: (1) Three general types of affects, (2) three types of basic learning mechanisms, and (3) three representative awareness functions of the neocortex (which relies completely on loops down through the basal ganglia to the thalamus, looping back to the neocortex before it can fully elaborate both thoughts and behavior).



-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", (Chapter: Ancestral Passions) (Figure 1.4) Page 10.



P

mildadhd
07-20-15, 04:44 PM
This top down version and link might be easier to cognitively consider.

The Philosophical Implications of Affective Neuroscience Cognitive Science Society (CogSci10)
Portland, Oregon, 12 August 2010

https://www.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/attachments/109303/jcs-articlefinal.pdf

1) Tertiary Affects and Neocortical ‘Awareness’ Functions

i) Cognitive Executive Functions: Thoughts & Planning (frontal cortex)

ii) Emotional Ruminations & Regulations (medial frontal regions)

iii) ‘Free Will’ (higher working memory functions — Intention-to-Act)

2) Secondary-Process Affective Memories (Learning via Basal Ganglia)

i) Classical Conditioning (e.g. FEAR via basolateral & central amygdala)

ii) Instrumental & Operant Conditioning (SEEKING via nucleus accumbens)

iii) Behavioural & Emotional Habits (largely unconscious — dorsal striatum)

3) Primary-Process, Basic-Primordial Affective States (Sub-Neocortical)

i) Sensory Affects (exteroceptive-sensory triggered pleasurable and unpleasurable/disgusting feelings)

ii) Homeostatic Affects (brain-body interoceptors: hunger, thirst, etc.)

iii) Emotional Affects (emotion action systems — Intentions-in-Actions)

Table 1. Brain 1) Tertiary Cognitive, 2) Secondary Learning & Memory, and 3) Primary Emotional-Affective Processing Systems.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/attachments/109303/jcs-articlefinal.pdf

mildadhd
07-20-15, 05:00 PM
http://emotionresearcher.com/the-emotional-brain/panksepp/

http://emotionresearcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/three-levels.jpg

"Two-way or "Circular" Causation"

(This version includes both ground-up and top-down views)

P

Stevuke79
07-20-15, 05:08 PM
You said it flory.

Whatever it takes for them to have a better life!

Children didn't want to play with me off of meds because I was too boisterous and quick to emote.....couldn't follow the social intricacies of other children ...in fact I had no friends in junior school other than another little boy with aspergers

I'd say being unmedicated in early childhood caused a lot of damage on my social development that I'm still making up for today that was WITH a diagnosis.....

I was bullied and tormented relentlessly at that age for being weird and different

Barkley often talks about the great difference in children that have been medicated early on compared with those later and how they have a much better chance than the latter.

If my children have ADHD I will have absolutely no qualms about medicating it as soon as possible.....I do not wish my life and all of the vile things that have happened to me on my worst enemy let alone my child

namazu
07-20-15, 05:15 PM
Peripheral, those quotes and links are interesting.

However, they don't address Sarahsweets' question:

What evidence there is to suggest that ADHD medications or playing inhibit the unconditioned PLAY response system?

Could you address this question with quotes or references that directly discuss ADHD medications' effects on the unconditioned PLAY response?

Are these studies that show that playing inhibits the unconditioned PLAY response? (Layhumanly, I would have thought that if this model is accurate, the opposite would be true -- that playing would strengthen or enhance the PLAY response rather than shut it down.)

mildadhd
07-20-15, 05:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWjbBNe0uUc

(1:40)..this is where the frontal lobe is going to suppress the emotional system


Namazu, and SarahSweets

This post does not answer all your questions, but is a part.

I am running to an appointment but will reply more to the questions when I get home.

While Dr. Barkley makes a common mistake of not including emotional brain areas originating below the Amygdala(below the Amygdala is the origin of the emotional systems, example the FEAR system...Amygdala<->PAG, etc) He does have the right general idea.

Primary raw emotional feelings (primary emotional response systems) are inhibited (suppressed) by the tertiary self regulation system, as people mature.

Frontal lobe = emotional self regulation system

PLAY system = a emotional system

Make sense so far?

P

mildadhd
07-21-15, 02:06 AM
..Both human and animal studies have provided evidence that periods of play improve social skills, impulse inhibition and attention (Panksepp, 2007; Pellis et al., 2010) and result in specific neurochemical and dendritic changes in many neurons (Bell et al., 2010; Panksepp, 2008), especially in those brain areas in which ADHD children are deficient...

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/ADHD_and_Play

"Free play" does strengthen the primary PLAY system and "free play" also promotes development of tertiary impulse inhibition, inhibiting the PLAY system and others primary emotional operating systems, etc, as we mature.

I find it really interesting that..

-children have less mature self-regulation systems, and "free play" more.

-adults have more mature self-regulation systems, and "free play" less.


P

SB_UK
07-21-15, 02:47 AM
If PLAY represents the development of sensori-motor cerebellar co-ordination.
Then PLAY would de-activate PLAYing motivation, as co-ordination is developed.

So - children like simple music.
But as we develop our musical taste - we are repelled by simpler music - for more heavily informational laden music.

So - through cerebellar development -
what once was PLAY now no longer attracts ?

PLAY de-activates PLAYing - at least at the same level of 'quality' ?

Personally - i'm finding it very difficult to play any game which requires the desire to win as a motivation to taking part.
The desire to win feels dishonourable in itself.

-*-

PLAYing TASK 1 -> cerebellar development -> reward (dopamine)* -> move on to more complex PLAYIing TASK 2
* So reward motivates development could inhibit playing.

But stimulant medication also deactivates stress which in itself inactivates playing.

It all depends on what you use the meds for - if used to engage in a task which assists cerebellar learning ... ... all well and good.
If not - then not.

SB_UK
07-21-15, 02:59 AM
Children didn't want to play with me off of meds because I was too boisterous and quick to emote.....couldn't follow the social intricacies of other children ...in fact I had no friends in junior school other than another little boy with aspergers

I'd say being unmedicated in early childhood caused a lot of damage on my social development that I'm still making up for today that was WITH a diagnosis.....

I was bullied and tormented relentlessly at that age for being weird and different

Barkley often talks about the great difference in children that have been medicated early on compared with those later and how they have a much better chance than the latter.

If my children have ADHD I will have absolutely no qualms about medicating it as soon as possible.....I do not wish my life and all of the vile things that have happened to me on my worst enemy let alone my child


In the UK - diagnosis/medication are very difficult to come by.

In the words of #2's teacher (fortuitously (in our case) parent to 2 children with ADD-I) yesterday - prepare yourself - it's really going to co$t you.
The amount of money that some of the educational psychologists / medics want for scoring a questionnaire or a 30 minute assessment is just plain silly.
I had just this experience also.

The problem of medication vs no medication doesn't exist in most of the world - obtaining medication/diagnosis is just that hard.


^^^
Perfect description of our #2 (currently 9 and behaves as though he's )

In our kid - it's poor language (developmental delay) and through behaving as though he's much younger - inappropriate desire to win ie will 'cheat' to win, will scream if he loses - so overly emotional behaviour - just as Flory describes

- but more simply - simply the behaviour of a child that's much younger - occurring because of the different developmental trajectory.

No real problem if there was the possibility of dropping him down 3 or 4 classes.

-*-

Do I want medication.

To reduce the stress of being in an educational environment which he's not ready for.
Yes.

But it's far from the ideal option - which'd be for him to be in a class which serves his needs.

We take longer to learn better [connected learning].

SB_UK
07-21-15, 03:15 AM
So PLAYing de-activating PLAY (cerebellar learning)

example

An adult would feel pain watching a TV program which a child might really enjoy.
S/he's moved on ... ...

-*-

But isn't that just PLAYing altering the form of PLAY as opposed to deactivating PLAY ?

If we're 'learning' to handle information.
And when we learn - we actually change.
Then we don't have any further motivation to PLAY ?

If you can complete a computer game without losing a life on the hardest level - demonstrating maximum levels of personal co-ordination -
why'd you play it again ?

Cerebellar development has nothing more to gain.

No further reward from cerebellar learning is possible.

So - we need to move onto a more complex task ?

-*-

However - the central thrust of the idea - is that we don't spend our lives in a relentless thrust for ever greater quality.
That would not be a useful way to live -as nobody could get anywhere near perfect quality in 1 area - let alone all of them.

So - considering that human beings are at a point in evolution where we're seeking to understand where we came from, how we came to be, what our context is - and we're pretty much there
- we're seeking to 'learn' understanding.

Learn understanding through 'PLAY' which'll deactivate the need for further 'PLAYing' as we obtain wisdom - and the reward system which the cerebellum motivates our search for explanatory real world models is transcended ?

SB_UK
07-21-15, 03:38 AM
So we have reward systems

food <- homeostatic
information <- sensory [primitive - requires a nerve]
understanding <- emotional (we feel when somehting makes sense) [modern]

homeostatic - no external movement required
sensory - required pre-movement
e - motional (s/he was moved to tears) - required for movement

sensory - homeostatic - motor

homeostatic - balance - articulation of sensori-motor.

The cerebellum achieves balance in the complementary duals of sensori-motor.

-*-

So ?

co-ordinated sensori-motor systems

1. Homeostasis - internal chemical environment
2. Sensory - handling
3. Motor - reactivity

-*-

Primitive - individual homeostasis [experiences stress if hungry - selfish]
Mammalian - social homeostasis [experiences stress in social relationships]
Human - global homeostasis [experences stress from ideas]

physical distress
psychosocial distress

So ?

[1]physico- [2]social- [3]psycho- distress.
[B]sensory, empathizing, systematizing [1] Primitive - individual homeostasis [experiences stress if hungry - selfish]
[2] Mammalian - social homeostasis [experiences stress in social relationships]
[3] Human - global homeostasis [experences stress from ideas]
[1,2,3]Three levels of brain development requiring control mechanisms - ways of avoiding distress.

So - how do we know how to correct imbalance at:
[1] physico-level eg learn to eat when hunger felt - reward from proper food intake behaviour
[2] social- level eg learn to interact with people - reward from proper interaction
[3] psycho- eg learn how reality works - reward from one's own mind clarifying - it's a bit like opening one's eyes.

Each with a
[a] sensori - cerebellar - [c] motor component

ie way of restoring balance ?

[1,2,3] 3 hierarchical layers representing integrals (sum of total or collective assessed as one).
[1,2,3] 3 levels of wellbeing

[1] Individual - sum of all biological processes - individual as entity
[2] Social/Species - sum of all Individuals - species as entity
[3] Global - sum of all species - all species as entity

Evolution has progressed to increase 'survival' fitness by making man intimately aware of all factors which affect man's own survival

- but we are required to then act on our minds.

And not to pretend as though we're lizards on lawyer clothing.

-*-
[B]
Summary
Vertical [evolutionary and hence] human development [1,2,3]
operating through
Horizontal human development [a,b,c]
(at each level of 1,2,3 in turn)

Take home message.

Must progress through the 3 stages.
When we complete stage 3 - we escape the co-ercive force (dopamine) which motivates cerebellar learning ie a,b,c formation in 1,2,3

And I'd really like us to switch from free dopamine release in the substantia nigra (tyrosine hydroxylase mediated) to a self-fuelling substantia nigra neuromelanin based approach via tyrosinase
- which takes us from the very start of the 3 tiered journey ie 'fuel' within [1] homeostasis (ie glucose homeostasis) ie extraction of energy from the simple carb into extraction of energy from SCFA's which're neuromelanin elaborated via exposure to electromagnetic radiation (experimentally verified as possible) in radiotrophic fungae.

Note - melanin - associates with virulence of lower organisms.
Melanin selects.
Not selecting for protective function (eg melanin and UV dissipation) but capacity to transduce electomagnetic spectrum energy into chemical energy ?

SB_UK
07-21-15, 04:09 AM
"Free play" does strengthen the primary PLAY system and "free play" also promotes development of tertiary impulse inhibition, inhibiting the PLAY system and others primary emotional operating systems, etc, as we mature.

I find it really interesting that..

-children have less mature self-regulation systems, and "free play" more.

-adults have more mature self-regulation systems, and "free play" less.


P


[1] physico-level eg WALK
LEARNING - children have less mature self-regulation systems, and "free play" more.... ... until we move on ... ...

-adults have more mature self-regulation systems, and "free play" less.[2] social- level eg TALK (begins at material level ie non-abstract - just the material world within eyeshot is all that concerns the individual cf dogs)

[3] psycho- eg :-) BAULK (develops abstraction ie to talk about that which is not immediately in front of your eyes)

(ADDers like summaries - warrrk, torrrk and bork)

'FREE PLAY' physico-level cerebellar learning.
Hands off to
social- level
psycho- level

'FREE PLAY' physico-level cerebellar learning.
rough and tumble play
= proprioceptive and kinaesthetic cerebellar learning
'Body in space' and 'Balance'

-*-

So - in the case of ADHD - the necessarily sequential deliverables of walk, talk and baulk are mushed together - meaning that we fail in articulation at mechanical* (clumsiness + autonomic eg bedwetting as seen in ADD), language** (clarity of speech, grammar as seen in ADD) and baulk*** (clarity of ideas (illogical connectivity) as seen in ADD).
The problem with all of the above is that learning is deranged - there's no going back - cannot correct the problems which have arisen through inappropriately customised cerebellar learning schemes.

*,**,*** All as observed in our ADDer kids.

SB_UK
07-21-15, 04:24 AM
These and related data suggested that: (1) learning disabilities and dyslexia may be cerebellar-vestibular-based and reflect a single disorder and that (2) the varying academic, speech, concentration, activity, and related symptoms characterizing learning disabled persons seem to be shaped by a diverse group of cerebellar-vestibular-determining mechanisms rather than distinct neurophysiological disorders

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3265783

-*-

cerbellar-vestibular

The vestibular system includes the parts of the inner ear and brain that help control balance and eye movements.

Importance of sensori-motor balance
BALANCE. (physical)
as the foundation.

sarahsweets
07-21-15, 04:37 AM
You keep talking about the same thing but where is evidence that medication makes a child play less. Or that it has an especially negative affect at age 4? Dr barkley is in favor of meds I believe.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWjbBNe0uUc



Namazu, and SarahSweets

This post does not answer all your questions, but is a part.

I am running to an appointment but will reply more to the questions when I get home.

While Dr. Barkley makes a common mistake of not including emotional brain areas originating below the Amygdala(below the Amygdala is the origin of the emotional systems, example the FEAR system...Amygdala<->PAG, etc) He does have the right general idea.

Primary raw emotional feelings (primary emotional response systems) are inhibited (suppressed) by the tertiary self regulation system, as people mature.

Frontal lobe = emotional self regulation system

PLAY system = a emotional system

Make sense so far?

P

SB_UK
07-21-15, 04:37 AM
Why ? when many of these ideas are so old - have they been lost.

Along came fancy new technologies from molecular/structural biology to neuro-electrophysiology, from sophisticated mathematical model generation to massive biological data stores - from transgenics to internal imaging techniques

- and we didn't really need any of them.

Just simple observation was required.

vpilar
07-21-15, 06:56 AM
Well.. we don't!

SB_UK
07-21-15, 06:56 AM
I see.

All that a nerve does/can do is learn.
It wants to learn.
Several stages of learning required.
Learning is sequential (evolutionarily defined).
Learning (all that the nerve does) defines emotion.

Lower emotional state
Higher emotional state

represent the learning process speaking when 'it' either does or does not learn.

Object - sequential learning

autonomic/mechanical/sensory
social (talking)
understanding

- until we unlock the door to a non-dopamine driven (can be identified by the individual growing to hate the stimulant medication) reward system.

-*-

Back 11 years.

Emergence of individuals and a species in which the drugs no longer work.

SB_UK
07-21-15, 09:39 AM
Learning disorders as 'cerebellar deficit' disorders
Actually - failure to train - nothing 'genetically' causal.
If anything - simply increased sensory upload inherited - not disorder.

The cerebro-cortical loop must be trained.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-DZrjRSnO9oC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

eg pps 30-32

Although pointing at dyslexia (spelling issues) - this is pretty much the same story in ADHD.

Messy handwriting, slow to sit up and walk and slow to babble.
All seen in kids 2 and 3 w/o dyslexia - but with definite developmental delay / speech and language construction delay / logical thinking delay - likely ADHD.

SB_UK
07-21-15, 10:23 AM
Although pointing at dyslexia (spelling issues) - this is pretty much the same story in ADHD.


Levinson also showed that cerebellar theory may be able to account for aspects of ADHD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADHD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_theory_of_dyslexia

TygerSan
07-21-15, 10:44 AM
Sorry, haven't read this thread through in its entirety. However:

However, they don't address Sarahsweets' question:

What evidence there is to suggest that ADHD medications or playing inhibit the unconditioned PLAY response system?

Could you address this question with quotes or references that directly discuss ADHD medications' effects on the unconditioned PLAY response?
Panksepp's group has at least one study, in adolescent rats, that indicates that methylphenidate (Ritalin) decreases play behavior. But that's in rats, and there are multiple caveats that limit applying those conclusions to people, the least of which is that as far as I could tell, the rats they used in the study were normally developing, not ADHD.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v33/n12/full/npp200810a.html

mildadhd
07-21-15, 10:50 PM
So PLAYing de-activating PLAY (cerebellar learning)

example

An adult would feel pain watching a TV program which a child might really enjoy.
S/he's moved

Before the evolution of TV, kind of play.

"Free Play"/Organized Play.

Different levels of control.

Free Play is more affective/cognitive (bottom up) more mature in early life, reciprocal begins about the age of 4*.

Organized Play is more cognitive/affective. (top down)

Before about the age of 4*, Free Play dominates

About the age of 4, Organized Play begins to take over, til it dominates about 18 years*?

I am wondering if people with ADHD temperament may have a slightly (+5%) overactive PLAY system, and/or SEEKING system? (but not limited to)

(Side note I appreciate the secondary and tertiary level of control neurophysiology, if I don't reply it's because I am learning (secondary processing level of control) and considering (tertiary processing level of control))

Play: Free play, in which children develop their own activities, including rough-and-tumble activities that, as the term play implies, involves physical activity such as running, jumping, play fighting, and wrestling, are increasingly recognized as essential components of a child’s development..

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/ADHD_and_Play


P

mildadhd
07-21-15, 11:40 PM
You keep talking about the same thing but where is evidence that medication makes a child play less. Or that it has an especially negative affect at age 4? Dr barkley is in favor of meds I believe.


Sorry, haven't read this thread through in its entirety. However:

Panksepp's group has at least one study, in adolescent rats, that indicates that methylphenidate (Ritalin) decreases play behavior. But that's in rats, and there are multiple caveats that limit applying those conclusions to people, the least of which is that as far as I could tell, the rats they used in the study were normally developing, not ADHD.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v33/n12/full/npp200810a.html



ADHD medication stimulates frontal lobe.

Frontal lobe inhibits emotional operating systems, more or less in everyone.

Anyone disagree?

Layhuman

P

mildadhd
07-21-15, 11:54 PM
Well.. we don't!

If you mean "we" as in people who benefit from ADHD medication.

As long as we don't take to much medication, are ever forced unwillingly to take ADHD medication or think of ADHD medication as ever being the only possible form of treatment.


P

SB_UK
07-22-15, 02:53 AM
To 4
Cerebellar development - play without rules (mind) ->
4 - 18 yrs
Cerebellar development - play without rules (mind) -> <- play with rules (mind)
>18 yrs
Cerebellar development - play without rules (mind) -> <- play with rules (mind)

It's relatively easy to characterize all of the 'things' that human beings do with the mind as play with rules - so programming, maths, carpentry - it's all (or can be) play with rules.

-*-

Looking at our most extreme (dev delayed) ADDer - hates rules - can't abide by them - emotional reaction (desire to win etc) takes over.
And our more advanced child - he loves rules ie more complex systems.

So - it's all in (ie their difference) - automatising cerebellar development and its reciprocal to reward/fun through progression - with the 2 key stages being -
walk (involuntary) and -<- free play
talk (voluntary) -<- rule based play

-*-

Why ?
does the ADDer take longer (to learn better) ?

Why ?
does the ADDer potentially need more training to reach the same (at least superficially externally observable) goals ?

It's tempting to label all kids with learning disability as examples of cerebellar dysfunction - but the connectome isn't like the genome.
Yes - monogenic disorders are programmed in.
But - the Western disorder and particularly the learning disorder are learnt disorders based on deranged cerebellar control loop formation - through inadequate training.

It's important not to train at a level which is too far beyond one's capacity.

-*-
wikip/developmental verbal dyspraxia

The child knows what they want to say, but their brain has difficulty coordinating the muscle movements necessary to say those words The stages

1
Bodily Motor articulation -> smoothness of movement
[fine, gross locomotor training]
materialist paradigm - ie movement in the material world (proprioception,kinaesthetics)

2
Oral motor articulation -> clarity of speech
materialist paradigm - speech about the tangible

3
Logical motor articulation -> clarity of ideas
post-materialist thinking begins -> capacity to handle the abstract

4
Completing in wisdom
materialist thinking is completely transcended as we realise that -

nothing is realnothing to get hung up about **transcend materialist, emotional subsystems

Strawberry fields
cf the eternal, immanent realityforever.

SB_UK
07-22-15, 03:19 AM
eg

1
Bodily Motor articulation
Hip hop dance moves (repetition)

2
Oral motor articulation -> clarity of speech
Extremely fast usage (parrot learning/repetition) words

3
Logical motor articulation -> clarity of ideas
Creating lyrics with nuance - expression of sense (particularly moral)

4
Completing in wisdom
You are built (all cerebellar learning programs passed) - just go live.
No further 'learning' required - 'learning' may continue but on a volitional/free will based ie post-coercive (addictive) reward system basis.

-*-

The perennial problem with ADHD

Broken cerebellum - flaw
or
Cerbellum which takes longer to learn better - or feature

[or difference ?]


-*-

How can we prove that ADDers develop better given a different type of learning ?
(as opposed to develop to the same extent - but longer)

- which sounds silly - why'd evolution ever just plain simply make human beings take longer of their finite lives to get to the same place.

Yes - but that'd be the case if ADHD was a simple disorder.

So - prove that it's all about taking longer to become better.
[Increased need for 'training' in cerebellar development at each stage of development]

-*-

From previously.

Key stage ref. human beings
3
Logical motor articulation -> clarity of ideas
->- to ->-
4
Completing in wisdom
Suggest that human logic in ADDers vs nonADDERS shifts from LOGICAL EOR to AND ie tendency for nonADDers to be able to field a disconnected model of understanding, with ADDers only actually being able to field a connected model of understanding.

How is the logical repeating unit of the human mind represented ?
Within the cerebellum ?

-*-

The synchronization of body, mouth, mind culminating in (level of mind) global synchrony of ideas cf global synchrony of the entire human organism in movement.

1
Global synchrony at the level of the individual's physical form - reptilian brain
2
Global synchrony of the species - speech - social brain
Requires communication - but not necessarily abstract ie birds 'talk'
3
Global synchrony of all species - abstract understanding of reality required

-*-

All of the above required some evolutionary definition of brain.

But the bottom line is that some level of structural organization of the brain into specifying the organism's (enforced) behaviour was required.

Global synchrony = the job of the cerebellum.

-*-

How does the cerebellum work ?

/sensori |cerebellar \motor balance

We need a cerebellar structure which encourages the 'global' (global synchrony) tree to form and not one in which one part of the tree can develop whilst the rest withers.

Jack of all trades and not a master of one.

Fundamentalism in ALL things occurs when global synchrony isn't achieved ie one 'facility' develops at the expense of all of the rest.

Solution
An educational scheme (eliminating the current Western educational approach) which delivers cerebellar learning (automatisability) in the 3 (4) stages of human development - taking the individual ever closer to the end-point of the human life-cycle of escaping the primitive reward system - or the co-ercive need (stipulated by ones own developmental trajectory) to complete one's learning trajecory.
The addictive / primitive / co-ercive reward system (that which must be activated) is there (necessarily) to be overcome.
Upon completion - you're free.

Automatisability really is the key word.

All ADDers here should know the joy of doing ALL things on auto-pilot.
Escaping the disconnected cortical loops which bring pain - requiring effortful attention - since effortless engagement is not possible.
Neatly connecting into why ADDers find it hard to do what ADDers find it hard to do - too much effort.
No cerebellar learning -> no activation of reward by the cerebellum for thanking us for teaching it -> meds supply the reward which is missing - with the question being - but do they allow PLAY without cerebellar learning as opposed to PLAY with cerebellar learning.
It all depends on what we do when we use them.

Auto-pilot (see recently referenced book 'Neurodevelopment') is what we experience when our underlying cerebellar puppet-master learns.

-*-

So - we can tell - when we look at the:
reptilian mind - Peripheral's list of emotions
mammalian mind - Peripheral's list of emotions
human mind (wisdom) - culminating in a single emotional state - 'bliss'

- since the cerebellum 'speaks' in emotion.
We can tell what the cerebellum wants ie how it wants to be educated.

Reptilian - 'selfish' synchrony of movement ie selfish emotional states driven - motor
Mammalian - 'social' communication ie social emotional states driven - motor mouth
Human - :-) 'global synchrony' ie at one with reality - the spiritual state <- the meaning of life - the fundamental motor

SB_UK
07-22-15, 03:56 AM
So - treatment for ADDers.

Repetitive, appropriate, sequential cerebellar training - progressing at a rate which is appropriate - not forcing training at any level until previous levels have been aced - since cerebellar development is hierarchical and you really can't run before you can walk - any attempt will just break (potentially irreversibly) you.

Walk
Talk
Baulk (at logically inconsistent ideas with morality or cognitive dissonance)

SB_UK
07-22-15, 04:03 AM
The in utero / post parturition stages of human development from germ cell [a genomic blueprint] to wisdom [connectomic conferred].

Genome - completion
Shift from carb to ketone body energetic usage
Ketone body (HDAC inhibitor - well known growth inhibitor) resulting in epigenetic modification to shut down 'growth' on the physical bodily level - resulting in a shift from growth to maintenance (aerobic metabolism) phenotype.

[I]Shifts paradigm to

Connectome - completion [in human life-cycle]
Shift from free dopamine to neuromelanin restricted doapmine accumulation
Ketone body production via substantia nigra gamma ray exposure - resulting in a shift from maintenance (aerobic metabolism) to self-powering maintenance (aerobic metabolism) phenotype.
The nerve (agent of quality) doesn't have the anaerobic muscle cell (http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=31599)'s taste for carbs.
Much prefers the aerobic muscle cell's taste for prolonged (ultramarathon,iron man triathlon shift in human sporting pursuits) aerobic activity.

Finally noting the selection of melanin from early on in evolution (marker of virulence - a good thing in evolution), the selection of mitochondria and the core basis to evolution of facilitating (happy) survival.
It's not survival if you're (as most people are in this world) - unhappy.

SB_UK
07-22-15, 04:16 AM
Meaning (back 11 years)

The emergence of ADHD reflecting the emergence of a species in which the drugs (stimulants) will cease to lost their effectiveness - through tyrosine hydroxylase based free dopamine shifting into tyrosinase based neuromelanin elaboration... ... stimulants potentiate free [re-uptake inhibitors] dopamine - would not work in any novel organism in which the polymerization of dopamine was favoured.

as evidenced by ?

St[ephen] i able Hawking not needing to eat.

Stephen Hawking's incredible longevity - the well known connection between calorie restriction and longevity eg Aubrey de Grey (https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2005/08/aubrey-de-grey-11.php)
- the inherent problem of how much.
The temporary solution of (See Hippocrates) to mimic fasting with fat intake ... ... also long duration exercise, gut biomic soluble fibre conversion ... ... but ... ... all of that simply points to the end-point which'd be the brain becoming the body's furnace.

Required - a shift in reward systems for :-) eternal (not on earth) life.

SB_UK
07-22-15, 04:31 AM
"He is exceptional," neurology professor Nigel Leigh told the British Medical Journal (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1123440/) in 2002. "I am not aware of anyone else who has survived with [ALS] as long." http://www.newser.com/story/203150/stephen-hawking-wasnt-supposed-to-live-past-25.html

Nothing happens without a reason.
There is reason in everything.
Always a reason.
And that's the basis to science.

Knowing the reason - for the sake of knowing.

Not per$onal gain.

SB_UK
07-22-15, 04:49 AM
^^^
That's nearly there.

All of man's problems solve under the scheme above.

Of note - logical, rational morality.

You can't know what's moral without a scientific, fully connected model of human understanding (wisdom) underpinning morality. Otherwise 'the road to Hades is paved with good intentions' ... ... requiring the walk, talk and baulk tri-une model of cerebellar automatising education (Do you cae ?) with reference to the tri-une model of evolutionary neuroscience from reptile brain (give me all your money!) to properly human (I'd be most grateful if you'd do me the immense courtesy of lodging your money up any one of your willing voluntary sphincters which come readily to hand) brain.

?? ouch ??

SB_UK
07-22-15, 06:29 AM
Mandatory verbal summary

walk, talk and baulk (acronym mtb ie mountain bike)
for
cerebellar automatising education (acronym cae pronounced se e/a)

Do you cae ?

Imagine - summing summary

mtb'ing @ cae

Visual Summary [summarisation of the summed summary ie 3 integrals]

http://www.mountainbikesapart.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/mount-wellington-tasmania-mountain-biking-australia.jpg

aka

~fun~ (the cerebellum speaking)

-*-

Mathematical summary

3 x 3
fun = mtb @ cae

vpilar
07-22-15, 06:47 AM
If you mean "we" as in people who benefit from ADHD medication.

As long as we don't take to much medication, are ever forced unwillingly to take ADHD medication or think of ADHD medication as ever being the only possible form of treatment.


P


...I wrote: "well… we don't", just as a response ,(sharing my personal opinion of course!), to the question "How do we know for sure if a child has ADHD at the age of 4?"

mildadhd
07-23-15, 11:58 PM
...I wrote: "well… we don't", just as a response ,(sharing my personal opinion of course!), to the question "How do we know for sure if a child has ADHD at the age of 4?"

Thanks.

According to this link, only about half the children age 4 or 5 diagnosed with a ADHD, receive emotional therapy.

I need to reread Prof Panksepp's idea of Play Sanctuaries for youth at risk of having a ADHD, which seems more and more like a fantastic idea!

Only half of preschoolers (4-5 years of age) with ADHD received behavioral therapy, which is now the recommended first-line treatment for this group.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html


P