View Full Version : The industry profits behind ADHD


ADXP
08-03-15, 05:59 PM
Research & studies generated on this topic amount to nothing. There is no scientist in their right mind who will find a cure for ADD. This is a billion dollar industry at stake they are going to make sure it stays that way to continue the profit.

dvdnvwls
08-03-15, 08:19 PM
Not all scientists are in their right mind. :)

Powderbucket
08-04-15, 03:33 AM
How on earth does one sure ADHD? You'd have to undergo some operation that permanently affects the output of Dopamine and Norepinephrine and sheesh. I don't really think it's something that can just be found. ADHD is not a disease, infection, bacteria or virus. It's a neurological disorder. You can't "cure" neurological disorders.

What I wouldn't mind is a Concerta without the side-effects though...

TygerSan
08-04-15, 09:12 AM
Not all scientists are in their right mind. :)


Very much this :)

The more impossible the task, the more tenacious the scientist. While the industry and science in general gets tremendous pressure to be "productive" and tell nice stories, there are many, many scientists whose sole drive is to solve problems, regardless of potential benefit to society.

Well, that, and it's hard to "cure" something that's at least in part an extreme of "normal" variation. I don't doubt that there may be a couple of different causes of ADHD, autism, and related disorders, and that overlapping symptom clusters may result in different presentations of similar disorders. "Curing" individual symptoms that cluster into syndromes, though: that's nigh on impossible.

Flory
08-04-15, 10:35 AM
The cost to society of severe undiagnosed ADHD is much higher than any drug companies make from meds ....think unemployment benefits , medicaid (we are at a higher risk for accidents), vehicular accidents, higher risk of violent crimes fighting etc etc, higher mortality rate, higher chance of being incarcerated, bankruptcy etc etc so let's be real here ....untreated ADHD costs a lot more money in the long run

cure is a dirty word often misinterpreted ...

every day I'm shilling....just waiting for my shill bucks to show up in the post .....cmon big pharma

Flory
08-04-15, 10:39 AM
I so so tired of the drug company not wanting to find cures =profit , rhetoric

SB_UK
08-04-15, 04:58 PM
Very much this :)
Exactly that

rules of proper science

cannot want one outcome to win over another
must want right answer
must not want to somehow personally profit from science

Love the Markham story where their own autistic child drove their 'intense world theory' - that's the recipe for science - as nothing bar the right answer will do.

Pilgrim
08-04-15, 05:14 PM
Gotta say in regard to ADD; they can make their large profits in regard to my med.
I've seen the other side of lack of treatment/med. I had a front row seat.

Must say a lot of this life is paying more than you should, and getting paid less than you deserve.

mildadhd
08-04-15, 10:21 PM
Research & studies generated on this topic amount to nothing. There is no scientist in their right mind who will find a cure for ADD. This is a billion dollar industry at stake they are going to make sure it stays that way to continue the profit.

I don't think we should blame anyone.

The problem is all people are allergic to emotional distress.

We cannot easily think about emotional distress, without negative emotional feelings originating from the PAG (midbrain area) taking charge over our prefrontal cortex's.

Awareness of types of emotional distress seems to be unthinkable, for most humans.



P

sarahsweets
08-05-15, 03:24 AM
I get tired of the whole "big pharma" getting rich off the backs of adhd'rs scenarios.

stef
08-05-15, 04:45 AM
Well big pharma is an industry so there is a cut throat business side to it (my father was a pharmaceutical salemesman so yeah it was a bit ethically disturbing to have seen him getting bonuses for selling vaccines - he was really good at his job) ; at the same time there are truly dedicated researchers and doctors out there and they have to get these things on the market in the first place.

sarahsweets
08-05-15, 06:18 AM
Well big pharma is an industry so there is a cut throat business side to it (my father was a pharmaceutical salemesman so yeah it was a bit ethically disturbing to have seen him getting bonuses for selling vaccines - he was really good at his job) ; at the same time there are truly dedicated researchers and doctors out there and they have to get these things on the market in the first place.
I agree with you stef. The thing people dont always realize is that all of the clinical trials and studies that happen before a drug hits the market cost money and of course the pharma companies want to make a profit but as far as people like us being the big money? I would think they have a better profit margin with the heavy hitters like cancer drugs. JMO.

Fuzzy12
08-05-15, 06:33 AM
This thread has been like a big fat, tempting cake (or cigarette in my current state) and I've been trying hard to resist the temptation to reply. Now, I'm annoyed and depressed though, so anyway...:

Research & studies generated on this topic amount to nothing. There is no scientist in their right mind who will find a cure for ADD. This is a billion dollar industry at stake they are going to make sure it stays that way to continue the profit.

There's just so much wrong with this statement that I don't even know where to start. First of all the research & studies generated on this topic don't amount to nothing, on the contrary. Second, (a) it's not just scientists but a lot of other people who are trying to find a "cure" (you can find a plethora of "cures" on the web), (b) there is a lot of research out there on how to help people with ADHD manage their symptoms and a lot of it is neither pharmaceutical nor part of any billion dollar industry (c) unfortunately, meds just seem to be the most effective solution in most cases (you could try doing a survey on ADDF to prove this in a very limited, unscientific way if you like as I'm sure that a lot of members here have tried everything possible under the sun a lot of things to help themselves including meds) (c) not every scientist is attached to a billion dollar industry or lets a billion dollar industry influence his research and third not everything that's for profit is detrimental or evil unless you don't like using any modern amenities.

sarahsweets
08-05-15, 06:36 AM
Ironically some of the biggest money making schemes that support the treatment of or "cures" for adhd are often of the natural supplements, brain training variety.

This thread has been like a big fat, tempting cake (or cigarette in my current state) and I've been trying hard to resist the temptation to reply. Now, I'm annoyed and depressed though, so anyway...:



There's just so much wrong with this statement that I don't even know where to start. First of all the research & studies generated on this topic don't amount to nothing, on the contrary. Second, (a) it's not just scientists but a lot of other people who are trying to find a "cure" (you can find a plethora of "cures" on the web), (b) there is a lot of research out there on how to help people with ADHD manage their symptoms and a lot of it is neither pharmaceutical nor part of any billion dollar industry (c) unfortunately, meds just seem to be the most effective solution in most cases (you could try doing a survey on ADDF to prove this in a very limited, unscientific way if you like as I'm sure that a lot of members here have tried everything possible under the sun a lot of things to help themselves including meds) and third not everything that's for profit is detrimental or evil unless you don't like using any modern amenities.

Flory
08-05-15, 08:07 AM
It's often in the same sentence as treat it naturally.....
Whilst I don't have a problem with people trying alternate solutions under the supervision of a doctor I think it should be in addition to conventional methods or after all proven methods have been exhausted

Big herba is a multi billion dollar industry just like big pharma
People making profit shouldn't be a deciding factor in whether or not their actions as an industry is ethical or having a secret agenda...

Breaking even or taking a loss for any individual or business would be bad .....
Would you go to work only to cover the cost of your fuel to drive there ?

Flory
08-05-15, 08:11 AM
Also throwing it out there that some of these alternate practices include chelation therapy for autism ......

SB_UK
08-05-15, 09:31 AM
I don't think we should blame anyone.

The problem is all people are allergic to emotional distress.

We cannot easily think about emotional distress, without negative emotional feelings originating from the PAG (midbrain area) taking charge over our prefrontal cortex's.

Awareness of types of emotional distress seems to be unthinkable, for most humans.



P

i wonder whether becoming a deep massage therapist of the PAG might suffice ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_brain_stimulation#Chronic_pain

Odd that that works - it's just ?

[1] Time Stephen Hawking - reaity is 'a brief history of time'
[2] Reality begins - what's required - 'clock time'
Time - 1st dimension - Planck Time
Space - 2 dimensions (duality) - Planck distance
There are only 2 space dimensions.
[3]
Pulse - evolution of pulse ie the 'time-frame' of an object
Pineal Piezoelectric effect eg piezoelectricity in the pineal gland (http://andrewamarino.com/PDFs/115-BioelectroBioenerg1996.pdf)
... Thinking ...
[4]
Open third eye - eyebrow level - note don't trust him - 'his eyebrows are too close' - the converse is true notably.
Third eye opening actually refers to attaining a particular (woo!) frequency
Pulse - evolved pulse ie altered time-frame of object of species
Lunar cycle - shared by all human beings ie unlike sun (it's light and dark at different times in the world) - the lunar cycle could synchronize man as a species
Shift from a circadian to a specific infradian pattern
Lunar gamma irradiation - novel power source
[5]
Piezoelectricity - pulsed -> deep brain stimulations.

Switches off all of those irritiating parts of the brain which deep brain stimulation can de-activate.

-*-

Thing is - putting a wire and sending electrical sugnals into the brain is a bit silly.

DO IT NATURALLY !!!

-*-

The industry profits behind ADHDMONEY IS BAD.

Do not touch.

It's impossible to do anything worthwhile if you want money, if there's anything that money can buy that you want.

Leave it all behind and we see that all and everybody can have it all.

-*-
--time--space
--time--|
--time-- =====TIME=====
--time--|
--time--space

What is time ?
The neat bit.

Why is time a dimension ?
It's a wave in an orthogonal dimension.

Meaning ?
We can't see its spatial characteristics - can only see its periodicity.
This periodicity seeds the dimensions of space - which become our 'space'.

All evolutionary products have a clock speed - but with the speed increasing in periodicity with evolution ie Planck time is as 'small' as it gets (can get).

Point with respect to the evolution of human beings.

Synchronized species to an increased clock time.
Lunar cycle.
Gamma ray irradiation driving melatonin into SCFA production.
Mitochondrial/Peroxisomal overgrowth - producing energy / heat.

We no longer need anything (particularly ie the bottom layer of the Maslow pyramid of food, energy) to survive.

The wayward sons need to cry no more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=2X_2IdybTV0

The inescapable observation that human beings are dressed in gorilla suits will no longer drive us (the ADDer) insane.

==

Once I rose above the noise and confusion
Just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion

-*-

1 time (= 2 space in an orthogonal space)
gives rise to 2 space (male - female standing wave) dimensions.

At which point the next evolved construct of time is seeded - time is a social impulse or group impulse which holds the rest together.
Time is the glue.

-*-

If I claim to be a wise man
It surely means that I don't know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

(some of these lyrics are very good)

-*-

Why are the people who are the most sure of anything and everything - the least capable ?
See above.

SB_UK
08-05-15, 10:14 AM
So - in brief

The industry profits behind ADHDRather than pointing at industry, or profit or 'disorder' ADHD

- ALL HUMAN BEINGS who operate under the primitive reward system and aren't striving through 'wisdom' to overcome material world attachment are the problem.

In this world of materialism - it has become fashionable for people generally to discard brain and become materialistic twosies (cf postprandial nappy contents).

Or Noam Chomsky's 'spirit of the age' - 'gain wealth forgetting all but self'.

-*-

What is interesting - is how society has been manipulated (wasn't hard - but still needed a global economic system with an architecture) to open peoples' eyes to their own addictive relationship with money.

Money is bad.

The only goal in life is to (in effect) develop a repulsion to its alluring wiles.

And it's hard (I guess) to develop a repulsion to something that we're not exposed to.

-*-

So - the point'd be to try and overcome all people instucting the next of kin carving -
'is that it ?' on their tombstone.

Each time you win a bit of money, or drink some alcohol or win a sporting tournament.
The hunger grows.

This is what the global economic system is built on.

Worse still - as people become poorer (related to the rate of growth of the global population - note Japan/Germany population crashing - and economies too ... ... Japan's lost generation and Germany's attempts at creating Europe to make up for reduced internal (population) demand) ... ...
money making becomes harder.

You'll find that your chocolate bar become smaller.

-*-

SOLUTION

Don't consume ANYTHING :-)
Kill wage slavery.

Underlying evolutionary change occurring -
speciation of 'new' man.

Gamma ray (solar/lunar) powered man via neuromelanin.

PROVE IT
What does Stephen Hawking eat ?

-*-

Fundamental error in the entire BioMedical Institution

That we're diseased because we're broken.

Wrong - we're changing to become evolutionarily 'fitter'
- which is going to involve changing our ways.

Irony - to develop a reduced need for food as (at least in certain countries) food becomes plentiful.

Diabetes/Obesity epidemic worldwide - more people suffering from obesity than starvation.

This is an underlying change in man.

No - just technoloy
- no - not technology.

I can feel a loss of interest in food - it's irritating.

At its root - the reward from stimulant medication occurs in the pathway of SEEKING food.

Food is below us.

Gorilla suits

-*-

How to transcend ?

Neuromelanin development.

I need information on whether chronic :-) sun exposure (mad dogs and englishmen) increases neuromelanin production ? <--- THIS IS A GOOD IDEA

-*-

grrr - smelly scientists and ther nambypamby Nature publications.


The rats exposed to bright light for 20 days or 90 days showed a relatively greater number of neuromelanin-positive neurons.http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/130306/srep01395/full/srep01395.html

-*-

The quest for originality continues.

Lunacie
08-05-15, 10:35 AM
Why haven't they found a cure for hunger?
Why haven't they found a cure for needing to sleep?

Why no cure for being too short or too tall?
Why no cure for being nearsighted or farsighted?

Because those are part of being human.

ADHD is not a disease which can be cured. It's one end of the spectrum of
being human, much like being very short or very tall.

Why don't we see this backlash against Big Optical business? They're just
making money from eyeglasses and contact lens, not trying to find a cure.
Where's the shame on that business?

SB_UK
08-05-15, 11:00 AM
Why don't we see this backlash against Big Optical business? They're just
making money from eyeglasses and contact lens, not trying to find a cure.
Where's the shame on that business?

BOB's bad too.

In fact yesterday I did find myself remarking on how remarkable it is that companies could generate so much choice in the rather peculiar practice of attaching bits of glass to your head.
Shouldn't one pair of specs (I'll grant you in differing sizes) be enough until the mighty minds of science come up with the solution to the problem.

Not light again !!!!!

- and another smelly scientist with a Nature publication on their CV.

http://www.nature.com/news/the-myopia-boom-1.17120


Dime a dozen.

Well at least Smelly Dogi has a funny name.

SB_UK
08-05-15, 11:16 AM
But another factor did. In 2007, Donald Mutti Smelly Dogi interviews D Mutti ?

It happened.

Lunacie
08-05-15, 11:26 AM
BOB's bad too.

In fact yesterday I did find myself remarking on how remarkable it is that companies could generate so much choice in the rather peculiar practice of attaching bits of glass to your head.
Shouldn't one pair of specs (I'll grant you in differing sizes) be enough until the mighty minds of science come up with the solution to the problem.

Not light again !!!!!

- and another smelly scientist with a Nature publication on their CV.

http://www.nature.com/news/the-myopia-boom-1.17120


Dime a dozen.

Well at least Smelly Dogi has a funny name.

So now you've added Big Fashion Industry (BFI) to the list. Why can't we all
just run around naked, why do we need eyeglasses that flatter our faces
instead of boxy black frames for everyone?

Stevuke79
08-05-15, 11:31 AM
I so so tired of the drug company not wanting to find cures =profit , rhetoric

Which of course allows one to blame their problems on others, without offering a better solution of their own. It takes responsibility off oneself without offering anything of value.


The notion itself is very illogical. If you make billions creating cures that works just fine, why put that all in danger by being unscientific with other drugs?

SB_UK
08-05-15, 11:36 AM
So now you've added Big Fashion Industry (BFI) to the list. Why can't we all
just run around naked, why do we need eyeglasses that flatter our faces
instead of boxy black frames for everyone?

BFI

WHAT NONSENSE !!!!

You just need a pair of quick drying pants.
(UK pants cf Mowgli's bare necessities)

(I do however concede that 3 year olds and 30 year olds will need a different size - though hold out some hope of a new form of elastic which'll allow us to have the same pants from birth till death we're parted from them).

Could be a heirloom ??

Heirbloomers ?

These pants were worn by my fore-fathers.

Never thought about that before.

Stevuke79
08-05-15, 11:37 AM
Research & studies generated on this topic amount to nothing. There is no scientist in their right mind who will find a cure for ADD. This is a billion dollar industry at stake they are going to make sure it stays that way to continue the profit.

There's just so much wrong with this statement that I don't even know where to start.
THIS! I was going to respond... but it was just literally overwhelming...

"Research & studies generated on this topic amount to nothing." " - Define "amount to nothing". Because I can't think of any definition that would make this statement true.

"There is no scientist in their right mind who will find a cure for ADD." - other than wealth and fame,.. and I'm pretty sure that scientist would go down in history as the first person to cure a mental illness. (Which I'm pretty sure, universally, don't get cured.)

"This is a billion dollar industry at stake they are going to make sure it stays that way to continue the profit."

And that's why they make better and better meds...
And if one of them were to create a pill that CURED ADHD, they would put all the rest out of business.

So I don't see your logic...

Lunacie
08-05-15, 11:39 AM
BFI

WHAT NONSENSE !!!!

You just need a pair of quick drying pants.
(UK pants cf Mowgli)

(I do however concede that 3 year olds and 30 year olds will need a different size - though hold out some hope of a new form of elastic which'll allow us to have the same pants from birth till death we're parted from them).

Could be a heirloom ??

Heirbloomers ?

These pants were worn by my fore-fathers.

Never thought about that before.

But why doesn't Big Pharma "cure" our need for clothing by inventing some
wonder drug that makes hair grow all over our bodies?

Stevuke79
08-05-15, 11:40 AM
Also throwing it out there that some of these alternate practices include chelation therapy for autism ......

Don't forget packing for autism.. that's a gem..

SB_UK
08-05-15, 11:44 AM
-----------All you need is wisdom
(it unlocks the door to immersion (swimming) within unconditional (an eternal, infinite) love)

Then you're good to stay, go or whatever really.
'sall good uhuh ... ... ...

SB_UK
08-05-15, 11:49 AM
But why doesn't Big Pharma "cure" our need for clothing by inventing some
wonder drug that makes hair grow all over our bodies?

Big organic farmer could make hemp underpants; then all we need to do is move somewhere where the sun shines.

I'd also suggest that we have a large hill (with grass) nearby to run up.

Our little mitochondrial chappies need their work outs.

Strictly NO footwear required.

JUST pants.

SB_UK
08-05-15, 11:54 AM
oooooo fashionable sustainable hemp black retractable (up for swimming and down for running in subzero temperatures) heir bloomers !!!! (http://www.yourdailyvegan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/BroadwayBloomersNomads-707x1024.jpg)
Which can be passed from generation to generation.

I know that sounds like materialism - but technically your pants are not actually yours - and that makes all the difference.

It's not materialism if the material thingy is shared.

Not sure I like the frills though - maybe some drawstrings for hoisting the pants 'd suffice.

Lunacie
08-05-15, 12:02 PM
oooooo fashionable sustainable hemp black retractable (up for swimming and down for running in subzero temperatures) heir bloomers !!!! (http://www.yourdailyvegan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/BroadwayBloomersNomads-707x1024.jpg)
Which can be passed from generation to generation.

I know that sounds like materialism - but technically your pants are not actually yours - and that makes all the difference.

It's not materialism if the material thingy is shared.

Not sure I like the frills though - maybe some drawstrings for hoisting the pants 'd suffice.

I think you've lost the thread ... ranting about or defending Big Pharma. :eyebrow:

Stevuke79
08-05-15, 12:08 PM
SB_UK - I've read through these posts and have tried to understand them ... but I don't get the logic.

So - in brief
Rather than pointing at industry, or profit or 'disorder' ADHD
....
Money is bad.

Let me as you a different question. Please give me a binary response. I want yes or no.

Is it possible to explain your point without suggesting that money and profit are bad?

Because if your appeal is to science and logic, then you should be able to make a scientific argument. You shouldn't have to invoke something that is completely irrelevant.

If the answer is NO, then your point is ***fallacious and completely unscientific.

(***Your argument contains one of the classic fallacies - contradiction by association. Even IF money is bad, that doesn't mean that money-making science can't be good. Forgetting the fact that you haven't proven that money is bad.. even if you had your argument is still fallacious.)

So my question: Yes or No. Can you?

SOLUTION

Don't consume ANYTHING :-)
Kill wage slavery.

Don't consume anything? I just want to understand, is that what you actually meant?

Don't eat, drink, breathe, read ,learn,.. especially not if you had to pay for it?

Do I have that right?

SB_UK
08-05-15, 12:13 PM
There has only ever been 1 thread.

To rise above the noise and confusion
Just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion

SB_UK
08-05-15, 12:19 PM
SB_UK - I've read through these posts and have tried to understand them ... but I don't get the logic.



Let me as you a different question. Please give me a binary response. I want yes or no.

Is it possible to explain your point without suggesting that money and profit are bad?

Because if your appeal is to science and logic, then you should be able to make a scientific argument. You shouldn't have to invoke something that is completely irrelevant.

If the answer is NO, then your point is ***fallacious and completely unscientific.

(***Your argument contains one of the classic fallacies - contradiction by association. Even IF money is bad, that doesn't mean that money-making science can't be good. Forgetting the fact that you haven't proven that money is bad.. even if you had your argument is still fallacious.)

So my question: Yes or No. Can you?



Don't consume anything? I just want to understand, is that what you actually meant?

Don't eat, drink, breathe, read ,learn,.. especially not if you had to pay for it?

Do I have that right?

Money is addictive.
Immerse people within an environment which encourages addiction.
Addiction then occurs and builds.
Dependency destroys the life of the individual.

Here's a lovely chap who we've just had over making the exact same point.

Compelling questions about our addiction to money, and the cost of losing wealth and happiness in the process.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/278519558177993187/

SB_UK
08-05-15, 12:22 PM
ps consumerism consuming ... ...

breathing is OK !!!!

Corina86
08-05-15, 12:46 PM
If the OP is still around and we didn't all scare him/her away: a cure for ADHD would be something that permanently modifies the brain!!! The risk would be huge and I, personally, would not be willing to take. How much of my issues are caused by ADHD and how much is my personality? Concerta fixes more ADHD related issues, but some stayed, like daydreaming or being lazy, when at home. I wanted to quit daydreaming more than anything. Now that I can control it more and I need less of it, I realize it I could never live without it completely. I'd need a severe lobotomy to get ride of all my issues, but I'm not sure it would really benefit me or anyone else.

It's why other mental disorder never get cured either: anxiety is bad, but how would we survive without any amount of fear? Exactly how much fear and worry is normal? The perfect balance is a theoretical concept, it's not something you can measure, like temperature. But medication and and therapy help: you can change it, you can adjust it in time, you can quit it, you can combine different types of treatment until you find what works for you. Same for ADHD.

Stevuke79
08-05-15, 01:09 PM
Money is addictive.
Immerse people within an environment which encourages addiction.
Addiction then occurs and builds.
Dependency destroys the life of the individual.

Here's a lovely chap who we've just had over making the exact same point.

Compelling questions about our addiction to money, and the cost of losing wealth and happiness in the process.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/278519558177993187/

You didn't answer my question.

Is that a 'No'? Your argument depends upon and unrelated subject?
(And is therefore completely invalid as a fallacy of association?)


Money is addictive.

Money is addictive,... therefore paid research is invalid?

That does not follow.

SB_UK
08-05-15, 01:52 PM
You didn't answer my question.

Is that a 'No'? Your argument depends upon and unrelated subject?
(And is therefore completely invalid as a fallacy of association?)




Money is addictive,... therefore paid research is invalid?

That does not follow.

In the particular instance of this thread.

Making money is addictive.
When performing science in an environment where money/power acquisition applies - then it is not the truth but appearing to have the truth which the 'scientist' seeks.
To spin 'nonsense' into plausible sense through the careful usage of words - in order to nail that big grant.

What then follows is that entire edifices are created with no underlying foundations.

Complex disease genetics - what a load of doggy poop.
Insert image of large brown cumberland sausages with flies encircling.

See epigenetics kills genetics thread underlying complex disorders for link to mechanism (Surani,Cell,2015).

-*-

The problem with money in science is that nobody is at liberty to state they have specialised in an area which isn't of any real importance - 'cos they're dead in the water without a bibbly bobbly grant to keep 'em afloat.

You have to be able to publish negative data and to have the freedom to re-train in something useful like :-) carpentry, electronic music generation or yogi-ness.

dvdnvwls
08-05-15, 01:55 PM
In the particular instance of this thread.

Making money is addictive.

That is to say, you haven't the foggiest clue what you're talking about.

Unmanagable
08-05-15, 02:04 PM
If there's money involved, there's shady stuff happening, period. Regardless of the arena.

SB_UK
08-05-15, 02:07 PM
Is it possible to explain your point without suggesting that money and profit are bad?

OK.

Industry profits by having sick people who're willing to pay any amount to get rid of pain.

This applies to private medicine, private dentistry, private veterinary, private pharmaceutical corporations.

Pain does that to people - when in pain people are easy to cheat.

There's an underlying profit motive which drives the pursuit of profit from sickness and NO effort to prevent problems from occurring in the first place.

The biological organism is much more complex than we had thought.

We are going to exceed the cloud's capacity to store and analyze data - so fast can we accumulate it.
And this was a problem years ago.

And yet the data deluge (or data sewage pipe) as we call it grows.

-*-

The fundamental problem is that people aren't doing what they're paid to do - but increasing suffering under the guise of alleviating suffering

BECAUSE BECAUSE BECAUSE

Money is addictive.
Immerse people within an environment which encourages addiction.
Addiction then occurs and builds.
Dependency destroys the life of the individual.

SB_UK
08-05-15, 02:14 PM
To alleviate the diseases of Western living - you have gotta' work out why they're occurring in the first instance.

The lovely epidemiologists can help to some large extent.

And as we know the league of social and medical epidemiologists point out how to alleviate disease eg Wilkinson and Pickett - where extent of inequality which private heatlh care is a strong contributor to - see American health care, health care insurance providers etc
- is identified as a major contributor to disease.

So - the entire private health care sector - monster that it is - is a strong contributor itself to the inequality which itself gives rise to disease.

So - it's much worse that simply suggesting that health care doesn't much care for people - it'[s actually playing a causal role in defining the key stressor (distress) which gives rise to the common, complex diseases.

It's just not that hard.

SB_UK
08-05-15, 02:34 PM
So -
You can't have any system where 1 party wants to gain over another party.

This is the primitive reward system.

You need a higher reward system - where you contribute to the wellbeing of another without expectation of any reward other than the wellbeing of the other.

At its route what underlies what's wrong with pharma is a society of individual which embrace the wrong reward system.

You do things for the personal reward of doing something worthwhile.
Do anything for money and your motivation is false - you'll find that you are not working to another's benefit but, instead, to their net detriment.

Sad huh !

SB_UK
08-05-15, 04:02 PM
OK who makes this appear on my screen !!!

- because somebody's gonna' have to post a large number of cumberland sausages with flies encircling somewhere central within it.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/baby_dragon_tink/pile-of-****-attracts-flies.gifhttp://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/simgad/17871561108830108077

Aha Nature genetics - the wayward son of the otherwise impressive Nature suite.

NOTHING IMPORTANT FROM THE STRICT PERSPECTIVE OF WESTERN DISORDERS IS IN YOUR GENES.
IT'S ALL ENVIRONMENTAL.

(and the cycle route to Hinxton isn't as good as it could be)

Lunacie
08-05-15, 05:03 PM
To alleviate the diseases of Western living - you have gotta' work out why they're occurring in the first instance.

The lovely epidemiologists can help to some large extent.

And as we know the league of social and medical epidemiologists point out how to alleviate disease eg Wilkinson and Pickett - where extent of inequality which private heatlh care is a strong contributor to - see American health care, health care insurance providers etc
- is identified as a major contributor to disease.

So - the entire private health care sector - monster that it is - is a strong contributor itself to the inequality which itself gives rise to disease.

So - it's much worse that simply suggesting that health care doesn't much care for people - it'[s actually playing a causal role in defining the key stressor (distress) which gives rise to the common, complex diseases.

It's just not that hard.

But as I pointed out earlier ... ADHD is not a disease.

Everyone forgets or has trouble concentrating, people with ADHD just have
more trouble more often. Part of the spectrum of being a human.

SB_UK
08-05-15, 05:06 PM
If there's money involved, there's shady stuff happening, period. Regardless of the arena.


Yes - like any drug - no safe exposure -

Hate these touchscreen things.

Little Missy
08-05-15, 05:06 PM
Hells Bells, you all are making me anxious as all get out.

dvdnvwls
08-05-15, 06:51 PM
If there's money involved, there's shady stuff happening, period. Regardless of the arena.

I suppose you could manipulate your definition of "shady stuff happening" to cover any situation that involves money...

However, money is a simple and easy way of exchanging things indirectly instead of directly. If I desperately need your help over a long period of time, and all I have to offer you for it is a ton of potatoes, but you don't eat potatoes or know of anyone else who would, ...

and if I'm the only one who wants your services...

and if I really need this help but no one else knows how to help me...

then if money doesn't exist, we're both stuck.



On the other hand, if I can sell my potatoes for money, to someone who doesn't know how to do the work I need help with but who really could use a ton of potatoes,

and if you can use that money later to get things you need, instead of being stuck with the ton of potatoes (or instead of doing no work and not getting any things at all),


... then why not? This is not "shady" at all. Of course, the process would unfortunately involve having to make a somewhat arbitrary decision about exactly how many potatoes are worth what amount of money, and about how much money your work is worth...

but... before, without money, we were still stuck with the equally arbitrary decision of how many potatoes your work is worth. Exchanging without money is still unfair and arbitrary.



Over time, things have been made much more complicated than this. Certainly there ARE shady dealings with money, people manipulating other people, playing dirty tricks, etc. But without money, there would still be shady dealings.

Greyhound1
08-05-15, 07:06 PM
***MODERATOR NOTE***
Please be mindful that this is the Open Science and Philosophy section and scientific rigour is not necessary required. We do have a "Hard Science" section for that.
Thank you.

BellaVita
08-05-15, 09:38 PM
If there's money involved, there's shady stuff happening, period. Regardless of the arena.

This is perhaps one of the best posts out of the entire thread.

No seriously...I think money messes with the mind, no matter if the corporation is for good or bad....

Doesn't mean that the outcome of the industry or whatever is bad, but that corruption can happen anywhere money is involved.

Anyway, that's all I'll say. Don't wanna go the political direction....

mildadhd
08-05-15, 09:59 PM
Why haven't they found a cure for hunger?

I think Humans could understand hunger better, if we considered 3 primary affects.

Emotional affects
Homeostatic affects
Sensory affects

But if Humans don't consider all 3 primary affects (feelings), we won't understand hunger.


P

Lunacie
08-05-15, 10:20 PM
I think Humans could understand hunger better, if we considered 3 primary affects.

Emotional affects
Homeostatic affects
Sensory affects

But if Humans don't consider all 3 primary affects (feelings), we won't understand hunger.


P

I don't think that's really on topic ... which is being able to cure ADHD ...
or anything else that's not a disease but a part of simply being human.

dvdnvwls
08-05-15, 10:22 PM
There is IMO an important distinction between [using money for a purpose] and [pursuing money for its own sake]. Pursuing or loving or wanting money for its own sake probably really is the realm of perpetual shady dealings. Simply using money for a purpose is not.

And anyone who truly wants to stop using money can certainly do so.

BellaVita
08-05-15, 10:28 PM
There is IMO an important distinction between [using money for a purpose] and [pursuing money for its own sake]. Pursuing or loving or wanting money for its own sake probably really is the realm of perpetual shady dealings. Simply using money for a purpose is not.

And anyone who truly wants to stop using money can certainly do so.

I agree, and I'm sure Unmanagable agrees too....

There's nothing wrong with USING money.

I'm pretty sure her and I both were just speaking of the bad ways money is used and how it can be a bad situation if it falls into the wrong hands.

dvdnvwls
08-05-15, 10:48 PM
I agree, and I'm sure Unmanagable agrees too....

There's nothing wrong with USING money.

I'm pretty sure her and I both were just speaking of the bad ways money is used and how it can be a bad situation if it falls into the wrong hands.

Unmanagable seemed very clear that in her opinion money is always bad, even in the proper hands and with good intentions, and that there is in her opinion something wrong with using money at all.

BellaVita
08-05-15, 10:50 PM
Unmanagable seemed very clear that in her opinion money is always bad, even in the proper hands and with good intentions, and that there is in her opinion something wrong with using money at all.

I didn't get that from her post at all.

Unmanagable, care to help us understand? :lol:

dvdnvwls
08-05-15, 11:15 PM
I didn't get that from her post at all.

Unmanagable, care to help us understand? :lol:

I guess from what you wrote, our potential misunderstanding of Unmanagable's post comes down to this:

Money equals corruption, always and everywhere.

OR

Misuse of money can lead to corruption, so we all need to watch out.

BellaVita
08-05-15, 11:18 PM
I guess from what you wrote, our potential misunderstanding of Unmanagable's post comes down to this:

Money equals corruption, always and everywhere.

OR

Misuse of money can lead to corruption, so we all need to watch out.

Perhaps, but...

There can be such a thing as more than two options. ;)

dvdnvwls
08-05-15, 11:21 PM
Perhaps, but...

There can be such a thing as more than two options. ;)

Ice cream? :lol: :D

mildadhd
08-05-15, 11:28 PM
i wonder whether becoming a deep massage therapist of the PAG might suffice ?


Thanks for remindfulness, SB_UK!


Epilogue: Recent Personal Experiences with PTSD, EMDR, and Reconsolidation

It is especially important for future researchers to clarify how certain emerging psychotherapeutic interventions work to modify the emotional tone of the brain.

I recently underwent a personal experience with a novel form of psychotherapy--the procedure called Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR)--that has become popular during the past few decades, but is not universally accepted, for the treatment of PTSD and other dissociative states in which intense emotionladen memories are compartmentalized, almost dissociated from the rest of the mind, rather than being integrated within a unified, emotionally well-functioning personality.

Here, I present an account of my personal experiences with this therapy along with some hypotheses as to why this form of trauma-therapy may work so effectively.


See

-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology Of Mind", Chapter: "Brain Emotional Systems and Affective Qualities of Mental Life", p 468-469.



P

Unmanagable
08-06-15, 01:07 AM
Thanks for interpreting, bella. :)

Shadiness can certainly occur anywhere at anytime and under any circumstances.

In my experiences, money or anything else of value can become a shady operation very easily.

Even more so when it's a survival situation that brings an overwhelming sense of desperation.

I didn't mean for it to sound as dvd interpreted. But I can see where he'd feel that way with my overall expressiveness and basic attitude regarding society as a whole.

KarmanMonkey
08-07-15, 10:46 AM
Everything has extremes, everything has good and bad about it.

When it comes to "big pharma", yes, there's little financial incentive to research cures compared to treatments. On the other hand, they have vast resources to research conditions, and I'd like to think that no scientist who found a cure for an ailment would keep quiet about it, and if a pharmaceutical company was found to be hiding a viable cure for a disease/disorder, that would be the end of them.

When it comes to research in general, it's important to remember that the researchers are human beings. And yes, some of them chose their field of research based on the financial benefits, but I would hazard to guess most of them chose their fields based on a passion and conviction to be of help to people with an ailment.

That being said, I also know of a cancer researcher who was thrilled that they were finally given a grant for the new equipment he had been waiting years for, and the hospital used the money for a new marble floor in the lobby. So people are equally capable of being idiots.

And I don't think the ADHD research has been for naught. I feel that the medical options have become broader, the non-medical options are more varied, better understood, and more practical, and the overall understanding of the condition in the medical community has become better.

Since I was little, a lot has changed in the understanding of ADHD. First of all, inattentive ADD was recognized in men. Second, it has become easier (and in some places possible for the first time) to be diagnosed as an adult. Third, schools are developing better education methods that acknowledge and support people with ADHD. Fourth, they are beginning to better understand the genetic, environmental and developmental factors that can lead to ADD. I feel that those are all huge changes that have come from the research that has been done in the field.

They may never be able to "cure" ADD, and I'm not sure if I'd sign up if they could. I do feel the research will lead to better treatments, better understanding, and new ways of coping and even thriving. I also believe that research can lend legitimacy to the condition for the significant number of people out there who still believe that it's just a problem with discipline.

Fuzzy12
08-07-15, 10:59 AM
Also, keep in mind that "finding a cure" is not the only research that can or should be carried out and we are still miles away from having enough knowledge and understanding to even being close to finding a cure. First of all you need to understand what a condition is, how/when/why it arises, how it's related to everything else, etc. There's a plethora of research studies on that with regard to ADHD and they provide the foundation for finding effective treatment options and maybe eventually a cure (if that is possible). If every research project about ADHD was just focussed on finding a cure you'd probably just get a lot of quick-fix types of "cures", you know...like once upon a type a lobotomy was considered a valid cure for some disorders and it did probably "cure" or rather get rid of specific problems but at what cost to the overall quality of life of the patient????

Fuzzy12
08-07-15, 11:29 AM
Also, what I find curious is why pharmaceutical companies get so much of criticism specifically with respect to ADHD?

Pharmaceutical research (industry or academically driven or both) has found cures, solutions, treatment options, etc. for a lot of things. A lot of pretty serious diseases have been almost eradicated thanks to pharmaceutical solutions. If "big pharma" in its entirety and including everyone who is somehow related to it thought that cures were detrimental to profit and therefore should not be researched or made available then why do we have cures for anything at all? E.g. why do we have vaccines?

What is it about ADHD that makes people so suspicious and biased? I think, the prejudice here might not be so much against "big pharma" in general but against ADHD and mental health disorders. I think, it's this attitude that is more likely to bias, limit and harm research into ADHD than the profit-driven-research theory.

KarmanMonkey
08-07-15, 12:03 PM
I think it's also partly the association people make between Ritalin and meth, and the fallacy that the medical profession is turning children into drug addicts.

And you mentioned some of the things pharmaceutical companies have done that were not profit-based; I can give a recent and tangible example:

http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/worlds-first-malaria-vaccine-approved-pharma-co-will-make-it-non-profit/

I remember an episode of West Wing where they were looking at AIDS medications in African countries, and the real logistical problems that went beyond availability of the meds, and showed real reasons why the companies felt it was not worthwhile to subsidize the meds in those countries.