View Full Version : Carbs and Sugar?


KarmanMonkey
08-13-15, 10:14 AM
I started replying, but realized I was drifting far from the original topic, so started a new thread.

Can't we just eliminate sugar + starch from the human diet ? rather than start placing mercury and fluoride into our bodies.

It's well known that carbs are NOT required (unlike protein,fat) by us.

Reduce? Sure! I'm never a big fan of eliminating something completely from our diet though.

Carbs have gotten a bad rap, and I'd argue that a certain level of carbs are beneficial for our health and our minds. I know Atkins has had a lot of good press lately, but there's a growing body of research saying that a low carb diet, while effective for weight loss, has significant risks to other aspects of our health, such as our memory, mood and kidney function. Personally I have known multiple people who have developed kidney stones for the first time after adopting an Atkins diet. And while there are other ways to get fibre into our diet, grains are the easiest. Since a certain variety of digestive distress is the main side effect I get from my current medication, this is of particular importance to me! :)

I do agree that as a culture have WAY too much sugar and carbs in our diet, though I think we need to be mindful of any extremes. We can change our relationship with sugars and carbs, but eliminating them? I feel we'd do just fine without refined sugars, but would you never eat fresh fruit again? I think as long as we exercise moderation and make healthier choices (fresh fruit and water vs. a soda) we can improve our health dramatically.

Fuzzy12
08-13-15, 11:11 AM
I agree. As far as I know humans do need carbs even if not as much as most humans consume. I think the current guidelines recommend that about 50-60% of your diet is carbs (or something like that).

And also as you said, the foods that contains carbs also come with a lot of other nutrients, like minerals and vitamins, fibre, etc...

I think the general recommendation is to reduce as much as possible simple carbs or simple sugars (apart from fruit probably).

SB_UK
08-13-15, 11:49 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=10&v=KkdFkPxxDG8

Will continue after viewing.

edit

19 mins

'we know that carbs increase levels of oxidative stress'

<- v important.

Oxidative stress is the single only factor we need to consider in ageing (notably also premature ageing).

SB_UK
08-13-15, 12:31 PM
note

humans one of very few organisms not to make our own Vitamin C.

Why ?

We represent evolution's transition from carb to fat powered vehicles.

DEFINITELY
- with oxidative stress representing our #1 enemy - we're not going to lose the capacity to make an anti-oxidant

- unless we no longer (by virtue of shift to ketones/fat as primary fuel) need it.

Pilgrim
08-13-15, 02:22 PM
In my opinion the trick with calories is don't have empty ones. Lower carb intake after 3pm if weight is a problem.

mildadhd
08-13-15, 11:08 PM
When I eat sugar including orange juice and apple juice, my arthritis gets really bad.

("Inflammation" -paraphrasing SB_UK)

Not sure about brown rice, etc...yet?

Got another new job about 2 weeks ago, with some bosses who I like and are fair to me.

And I feel less distressed, and am able to remember to avoid sugar a lot more, and have less arthritis than normal.

Today at work, I had slight cold and runny nose, so not thinking about sugar, I bought some orange juice at the coffee truck, and it helped my runny nose, but my arthritis went out of control.




P

SB_UK
08-14-15, 03:15 AM
When I eat sugar including orange juice and apple juice, my arthritis gets really bad.

("Inflammation" -paraphrasing SB_UK)

Not sure about brown rice, etc...yet?

Got another new job about 2 weeks ago, with some bosses who I like and are fair to me.

And I feel less distressed, and am able to remember to avoid sugar a lot more, and have less arthritis than normal.

Today at work, I had slight cold and runny nose, so not thinking about sugar, I bought some orange juice at the coffee truck, and it helped my runny nose, but my arthritis went out of control.




P

Exactly here.

sugar - inflammation trigger
stress - triggers carb intake

SB_UK
08-14-15, 03:18 AM
growth-promoting (insulin / igf-1)

vs
not

leptin

Core problem - growth promoting lies at heart of reward system greed.

Greed - addictive - to food ... ... money, power, sex ... ...

SB_UK
08-14-15, 03:55 AM
growth-promoting (insulin / igf-1)

vs
not

leptin

Core problem - growth promoting lies at heart of reward system greed.

Greed - addictive - to food ... ... money, power, sex ... ...

ADDers have different reward system relating to increased information upload.

Prior to release of publication on increased time taken for cortical maturation - we called this -
'ADDers take more time to learn better'.

So - a cerebellar-cortical learning mechanism which takes more time than nonADDers to form - representing a mechanism of handling more information in ADDers.

However - in an environment in which ADDers are placed in schools with nonADDers - ADDers aren't ready - suffer stress - and all of the usual ADHD symptoms which are simply the result of stress.

The underlying increased capacity to handle information - defines ADDers as something new - and shifts the onus in ADDers from the material world into the informational world.

So - higher sensory information upload people.

Not suggested this before - increased observational data immersion - provides increased impetus to arrange (make sense) of observational data - increased (overpowering) need to generate an all consistent model of understanding.

Not sure about the connection between increased sensory world immersion and the increased need to generate a model which handles it - could this be generalized from what we see - into what our mind 'sees' ... ...

Still sticking to ADDers as more sensitive (eg saccades data), ketone-adapted (remember all of the stories of ADD relating to sugar intake), social-species incorporated (a consequence of tendency towards completion of mind which has morality (the completed mind is the moral mind) as stipulation) ... ...

What goes wrong - is that ADDers are placed in an environment where:
OVERSTIMULATED
ADDers as more sensitive (eg saccades data)
ONLY CARBS + ANIMAL PROTEIN + SALT ARE AVAILABLE TO EAT
Ketone-adapted (remember all of the stories of ADD relating to sugar intake)
VARIATIONS ON COMPETITION RULE ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE
Social-species incorporated (a consequence of tendency towards completion of mind which has morality (the completed mind is the moral mind) as stipulation) ... ...


So ... ... ... simple suggestion that we're MUCH less demanding.

Need next to nothing.

But are immersed in a human environment where everybody's grasping for something which (and they all know) hastens either their, their neighbour's or their children's death.

So - no need for movies, games etc (sensory stimulation) - personally I can't stand funfairs, loud noises.
So - no need for much food (original ketosis diets required 2 days of complete fasting prior to starting).
And we don't compete so are no longer propelled into pointless education, workplace schemes where 'getting on' and not doing the right things is applied as motivation.

-*-

Core summary
More sensitive (sensitive to loud noises from early age, not one for being the centre of attention), keto-sculpted (in this environment - we'll become fat) and competition against others-averse (because we know that there's no point - deep down - even from an early age)

- we're not motivated by the 'greed' reward system, though succumb to 'greed' behaviours *not* as motivational - but as stress relief in a world in which we can't obtain what we find rewarding.

What do ADDers find rewarding ?
Note previous posts on - what is the very essence of reward ?
Learning.

But because we've a different rate of cerebellar-cortical loop maturation - we've a different schedule for learning.
We take longer to learn better.

And so ... ... ... learning at our own pace - towards - we'll note - becoming exceptional
- in time -
at that which we choose to 'specialise' (learn) in.

Note - will relate to aspects of life which we consider 'quality'.

Quality of life factors - are where we find motivation.

Personally better (we become of better quality within a moral setting) - we obtain reward - through personal expression of our own intrinsic improvement.

SB_UK
08-14-15, 04:00 AM
The question of what separates ADDers from nonADDers.

ADDers want to become personally better.
nonADDers are able to kid themselves that they're better when they beat other people.

The nonADDer reward system is 'stupid'.

nonADDer reward system - may be called genome reward system - as 'beating' other organisms was part of its model of evolution.

ADDer reward system - may be called the connectome/memome reward system - as 'beating' other organisms appears barbaric and ill-conceived in its desire to become better - I want *you* to help *me* become better - and I will reciprocate.

As you become better - I will listen to the music you make, enjoy the art you produce, read the words you write, run through the gardens you generate, try the wines you generate

- and I (by virtue of helping you) will enjoy your personal excellence.

YOU WIN, I WIN
EVERYBODY WINS.

The ADDer reward system.

SB_UK
08-14-15, 04:08 AM
What do ADDers find rewarding ?
Note previous posts on - what is the very essence of reward ?
Learning.


Should explain - learning applies at the cerebellar level.

To learn it must be incorporated, you must be better, able to 'subconsciously' use the information eg riding a bike where we become able - don't need to think about it ie train, learn, think about it ... .. and a good test of whether we've learnt is that we can't go back.
Can't unlearn riding a bike.

But we can unlearn the very vast majority of the nonsense that we're taught at school.

Calculus and Date pains !!!
Once learnt - soon forgotten w/o re-inforcement.
Cerebellum likes repetition.

SB_UK
08-14-15, 04:21 AM
The only reason our food is enriched in immoral animal products, killer carbs and deadly processed vegetable oils

is (the love/desire of) MONEY (and mechanism of capitalism).

-*-

Reward system discarded in ADDers - if we're immersed in a facilitating environment.

You can't become personally better if people with money, wanting more money are waving a stick at you to remain firmly attached to the wage slavery conveyor belt.

The joke's on you though - no matter how much money you acquire - you'll still go to your death (mechanism of addiction) - wanting more.

The only solution is to transcend this reward system by cultivating a moral society in which people do because it brings them personal pleasure and not because it (evil smilie) pays.

Personal pleasure -> the individual becomes personally better - EVERYBODY WINS
Beating other people -> education / workplace - NOBODY WINS

SB_UK
08-14-15, 04:30 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=10&v=KkdFkPxxDG8


Thing that gets to me about keto-adaptation is the observation that 1 day of carbs requires 4-6 weeks of re-acclimatization before we're back ... ... this observation makes it clear (I think) that we're heading into a paradigm where we don't eat - as we can't be expected to eat and carefully avoid carb-containing foods ... ... we need to have food :-) taken off the table.

To clarify - evolution wouldn't make it necessary to have a breakdown of what's in food - for us to choose what to eat - it's far more elegant.

Evolution leave it to human beings and our fickle minds to do the right thing - no chance - we're not (despite how much we like to think) smart enough ... ...

I think we need to push ourselves into the ketosis lifestyle for now - but am expecting that at some point as individual or species - we're going to need to start producing our own food internally - as has been proven possible by (neuro)melanin in fungae exposed to gamma radiation.

SB_UK
08-14-15, 04:58 AM
inflammationhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2990475/

Overall, observations to date suggest that oxidative stress, chronic inflammation, and cancer are closely linked.

-*-

Ketosis should wipe them all out.

Ketosis (promoting autophagy) - should wipe out:
http://www.cimr.cam.ac.uk/research/principal-investigators/principal-investigators-q-z/rubinsztein

also.

Magic bullet.

-*-

The solution to poor ageing (neuro-degeneration).

Nerves just want to have fun.
(fun - correct defn see 'quality' (of life) epidemiologically verified)

SB_UK
08-14-15, 05:25 AM
What is fun ?

Our reward system.

Becoming personally better at the level of the cerebellum.

Becoming better - becoming of higher quality.

Assessment of whether we're becoming better - whether we suffer pain under life exposed to lesser quality eg pain listening to pop music or soap operas or the usual 'romance' film or reading a dull book with facile ideas expressed ... ... all low quality.

Pain ensues.

SB_UK
08-14-15, 05:36 AM
The key point about quality is that it's actually us, ourselves which have improved in quality.

Not buying quality cars or houses.

None of that matters.

We ourselves have a reward system of ourselves becoming of higher quality - which requires training of cerebellar/cortical loops sequentially - progressive training of that which seeds our externally visible quality into generation of an ever more high quality individual.

Fun experienced in the process.

-*-

Carbs and Sugar.
are the visibly designer labelled clothing, tattoos, pulp romance novels, mass produced pop music, showy wealth of our time.

^^^ all just low quality.

The individual who engages in the above is not becoming personally better - unless it's a transient stage the individual passes through on their way to better.
All children need to learn their first word.

eg haute cuisine - drops stodge/sweet ie flour/sugar - with French cooking's well-known connection to fat (butter,cream).

SB_UK
08-14-15, 07:19 AM
Thing that gets to me about keto-adaptation is the observation that 1 day of carbs requires 4-6 weeks of re-acclimatization before we're back ... ... this observation makes it clear (I think) that we're heading into a paradigm where we don't eat - as we can't be expected to eat and carefully avoid carb-containing foods ... ... we need to have food :-) taken off the table.

To clarify - evolution wouldn't make it necessary to have a breakdown of what's in food - for us to choose what to eat - it's far more elegant.

Evolution leave it to human beings and our fickle minds to do the right thing - no chance - we're not (despite how much we like to think) smart enough ... ...

I think we need to push ourselves into the ketosis lifestyle for now - but am expecting that at some point as individual or species - we're going to need to start producing our own food internally - as has been proven possible by (neuro)melanin in fungae exposed to gamma radiation.


Note - I can't mix
MCT oil (ketone forming) with food

Really bad problems afterwards.

Strongly suggesting again - that the 'ketone' mechanism (generation) occurs without the need for food intake.

Didn't start this way - could initially take MCT oil w/o problems.

Nowadays not so.

Must not eat anything anywhere near MCT oil consumption.

-*-

Note - taking this observation to mean that there's some clash between the ketone and food intake.

Could be true - losing the food intake reward system - what's our incentive to eat anything ?
Do we have to go straight from losing the primitive (food intake) reward system to generating our own ketones internally ?

SB_UK
08-14-15, 07:37 AM
Finally - note #3
Previously noted that taking EVOO (in line with the ketone diet) resulted in asthma on exercise.

+ PNS (digest) - associated with asthma (see Kunga Dorji)
Asthma = +PNS -SNS

Fasting results in +SNS (already described on site)

-*-

So - a third line of evidence suggesting we're moving beyond food intake - into generating our own food source.

Little Missy
08-14-15, 07:49 AM
I'm just dying to know what you do eat. :) Especially because I have a little bit of asthma.

SB_UK
08-14-15, 07:50 AM
My general conclusion is that human beings are changing for the better but becoming diseased through clinging to the past.

Bottom line - eliminate money so personal betterment takes the place of greed as our reward system.

Greed - the acquisition of high grades in school and progress at work for personal materialistic (money,power,sex) gain
- IS - the enemy, devil ... ... whatever you want to call the evolutionarily anachronistic reward system.

SB_UK
08-14-15, 07:52 AM
I'm just dying to know what you do eat. :) Especially because I have a little bit of asthma.

Currently raw vegan mufa, raw vegan pufa (EVOO,plain chocolate,olives,seeds) + raw (cabbage mostly) vegan fermented
or
MCT oil
ie
Vegan Atkins (hard work!!) - highly contrived

Would rather stop eating.

Complete fasting - hard to exercise at the same time

SB_UK
08-14-15, 08:12 AM
I'm just dying to know what you do eat. :) Especially because I have a little bit of asthma.
ps

last academic year tried an expt.

Either do or do not eat during day prior to cycling.

- asthmatic reaction only when I ate food.

SB_UK
08-14-15, 08:24 AM
My general conclusion is that human beings are changing for the better but becoming diseased through clinging to the past.

Bottom line - eliminate money so personal betterment takes the place of greed as our reward system.

Greed - the acquisition of high grades in school and progress at work for personal materialistic (money,power,sex) gain
- IS - the enemy, devil ... ... whatever you want to call the evolutionarily anachronistic reward system.

The crazy part is that most people will intuitively know all of that.

So why repeat ?

Ever tried telling an alcoholic that alcohol is bad for them - they'll know - but won't listen.

Primitive reward system is the mechanism of addiction.

All rational advice re:addictive reward system falls on deaf ears.

So why bother repeating ?

Because the key to unlocking the primitive/addictive/greed-based reward system is the acquisition of a mind (wisdom) which is (post-completion) then itself under NO doubt over the damage caused by following its (primitive reward system -based) temptation -

ie [completed] mind can unlock the hold which the addictive reward system has us in.

KarmanMonkey
08-14-15, 10:41 AM
I agree with many of the things you've said; we as a culture have a completely messed up relationship with food, and a lifestyle far removed from the one for which our bodies were designed.

I also know that a low-carb diet is a viable and healthy option for people to help manage certain chronic health conditions (e.g. diabetes)

As far as weight loss goes, a lot of the newer research is suggesting that lack of physical activity is responsible for 90% of the risks we associated with being overweight. Our dietitian here at work once said that she'd much rather see a person be 100lbs overweight than see someone 10lbs underweight.

One of the problems with Ketosis is that it's extremely stressful on our kidneys. It's also forcing our body to put itself through a lot of stress in order to gain the energy we need to function.

Here's a little blip from USDA recommendations:

WHY DO WE NEED CARBOHYDRATES?
Carbohydrates are the macronutrient that we need in the largest amounts. According to the Dietary Reference Intakes published by the USDA, 45% - 65% of calories should come from carbohydrate. We need this amount of carbohydrate because:
•Carbohydrates are the body’s main source of fuel.
•Carbohydrates are easily used by the body for energy.
•All of the tissues and cells in our body can use glucose for energy.
•Carbohydrates are needed for the central nervous system, the kidneys, the brain, the muscles (including the heart) to function properly.
•Carbohydrates can be stored in the muscles and liver and later used for energy.
•Carbohydrates are important in intestinal health and waste elimination.

Here's a blurb from the American College of Nutrition:
A 2003 review of Atkins "theories" in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition concluded: "When properly evaluated, the theories and arguments of popular low carbohydrate diet books... rely on poorly controlled, non-peer-reviewed studies, anecdotes and non-science rhetoric. This review illustrates the complexity of nutrition misinformation perpetrated by some popular press diet books. A closer look at the science behind the claims made for [these books] reveals nothing more than a modern twist on an antique food fad."

Apparently the low/no carb diet has been denounced by the National Academy of Sciences, the AMA and ADA, the American Cancer Society, the American Heart Association, Johns Hopkins, the American Kidney Fund, the American College of Sports Medicine and the National Institutes of Health.

I'm not saying that there isn't validity to much of what you've posted, SB. At the same time I'm concerned that you've oversimplified our bodies functions.

There are a number of studies that associate a lack of carbs with decreased memory and concentration, as well as other negative impacts on our nervous system, cardiac health, and a host of other bodily systems.

It's also worth noting that a lot of the weight loss on atkins-type diets tends to be from a loss of water, and that dehydration is a significant risk. And as someone else has mentioned (Fuzzy?) there are a number of nutrients we need whose only food source is in carbohydrates, and that they are nutrients that are not readily absorbed in the form of a suppliment.

Ketosis does burn fat, but the ketones can actually be toxic to us as well:
http://www.afpafitness.com/research-articles/no-one-wants-a-ketone-body

There are merits to revising our diets and switching a lot of our simple carbs to complex carbs high in fibre, and we definitely don't need refined sugar, but there's a reason carbs have been part of our diet for millenia.

I'm a firm advocate that a good balance of foods and a healthy relationship with food (e.g. eating more frequently for nutrition (hopefully still enjoyable) rather than emotional eating) The impression I've had from every scientific article on food and nutrition has supported the idea that eliminating anything from our diet completely can be harmful to our bodies. Eliminating cholesterol from our diets has been shown to result in biosynthesis (i.e. our bodies manufacturing it) and we end up having higher levels of cholesterol as a result. This is why modern nutrition focuses on increasing the "good" cholesterol.

There are some benefits to a low/no carb diet, and I'm not trying to denounce what you have said; what I'm trying to do is illustrate that there are reasons to be cautious about your approach as well.

Unmanagable
08-14-15, 11:31 AM
Eliminating dairy, meat, processed sugars and salts, and most grains has done INCREDIBLE wonders for my mental and physical health. I've also shed 50 lbs, so far, of stubborn weight I've been holding onto for years. No other diet I tried, from the endless buffet of options, EVER produced results.

So, the idea of never eliminating anything from the food groups we've been taught are highly beneficial holds no weight from my experience. All the professionals, including my p doc and a nutritionist/registered dietitian, had me buying high dollar supplements to add to an already poor and not very healthy diet, instead of stressing the importance of changing diet, then looking at what supplementation may be helpful.

It's all a** backwards, from the view I have where I'm standing. I've been eating a mucus less and mucus lean diet for a little over 4 months, thus far, and I certainly don't qualify as a scientist or a study, but my experience is very real, I've since met many others practicing the same and benefiting GREATLY by reversing many forms of dis-ease, and my overall health has greatly improved, and that's always been my best yard stick to measure effectiveness by.

KarmanMonkey
08-14-15, 11:50 AM
I'm wondering if part of your experience is related more to food sensitivites or allergies, as opposed to straight nutrition?

I have a close friend who managed to reverse tumor growth in her thyroid as a result of eliminating certain foods from her diet, and as a result avoided the radiation therapy and surgery that would've severly stalled or even prevented her from becoming a mother.

I guess I'm backpedaling a little bit; When speaking about having a wide variety of foods in our diet and avoiding complete elimination of most foods, I was speaking in broad terms that was dismissive of individuals' needs and experiences.

I'm glad that you had such a positive experience and outcome, and while I sounded quite negative in my last post about eliminating foods from our diet, I do feel that making dietary changes is a much less invasive and disruptive approach to health than most of our medical interventions.

I guess I just have a problem when someone takes their personal experience and tries to convince the world that everyone should adopt their approach.

Which I guess is kind of what I did, so I'm sorry.

Unmanagable
08-14-15, 12:03 PM
I'm wondering if part of your experience is related more to food sensitivites or allergies, as opposed to straight nutrition?

I have a close friend who managed to reverse tumor growth in her thyroid as a result of eliminating certain foods from her diet, and as a result avoided the radiation therapy and surgery that would've severly stalled or even prevented her from becoming a mother.

I guess I'm backpedaling a little bit; When speaking about having a wide variety of foods in our diet and avoiding complete elimination of most foods, I was speaking in broad terms that was dismissive of individuals' needs and experiences.

I'm glad that you had such a positive experience and outcome, and while I sounded quite negative in my last post about eliminating foods from our diet, I do feel that making dietary changes is a much less invasive and disruptive approach to health than most of our medical interventions.

I guess I just have a problem when someone takes their personal experience and tries to convince the world that everyone should adopt their approach.

Which I guess is kind of what I did, so I'm sorry.

No worries. I feel the same when people try to apply a scientific approach across the board, or give it much more weight and/or credibility just because something is viewed as scientific.

Little Missy
08-14-15, 12:18 PM
SB, of course you do eat fruit, correct? You are talking about refined sugar and pre-pared foods?

SB_UK
08-14-15, 12:25 PM
SB, of course you do eat fruit, correct? You are talking about refined sugar and pre-pared foods?

No fruit, no sugar, no pre-prepared foods.

Nightmare.

SB_UK
08-14-15, 12:29 PM
I agree with many of the things you've said; we as a culture have a completely messed up relationship with food, and a lifestyle far removed from the one for which our bodies were designed.

I also know that a low-carb diet is a viable and healthy option for people to help manage certain chronic health conditions (e.g. diabetes)

As far as weight loss goes, a lot of the newer research is suggesting that lack of physical activity is responsible for 90% of the risks we associated with being overweight. Our dietitian here at work once said that she'd much rather see a person be 100lbs overweight than see someone 10lbs underweight.

One of the problems with Ketosis is that it's extremely stressful on our kidneys. It's also forcing our body to put itself through a lot of stress in order to gain the energy we need to function.

Here's a little blip from USDA recommendations:

WHY DO WE NEED CARBOHYDRATES?
Carbohydrates are the macronutrient that we need in the largest amounts. According to the Dietary Reference Intakes published by the USDA, 45% - 65% of calories should come from carbohydrate. We need this amount of carbohydrate because:
•Carbohydrates are the body’s main source of fuel.
•Carbohydrates are easily used by the body for energy.
•All of the tissues and cells in our body can use glucose for energy.
•Carbohydrates are needed for the central nervous system, the kidneys, the brain, the muscles (including the heart) to function properly.
•Carbohydrates can be stored in the muscles and liver and later used for energy.
•Carbohydrates are important in intestinal health and waste elimination.

Here's a blurb from the American College of Nutrition:
A 2003 review of Atkins "theories" in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition concluded: "When properly evaluated, the theories and arguments of popular low carbohydrate diet books... rely on poorly controlled, non-peer-reviewed studies, anecdotes and non-science rhetoric. This review illustrates the complexity of nutrition misinformation perpetrated by some popular press diet books. A closer look at the science behind the claims made for [these books] reveals nothing more than a modern twist on an antique food fad."

Apparently the low/no carb diet has been denounced by the National Academy of Sciences, the AMA and ADA, the American Cancer Society, the American Heart Association, Johns Hopkins, the American Kidney Fund, the American College of Sports Medicine and the National Institutes of Health.

I'm not saying that there isn't validity to much of what you've posted, SB. At the same time I'm concerned that you've oversimplified our bodies functions.

There are a number of studies that associate a lack of carbs with decreased memory and concentration, as well as other negative impacts on our nervous system, cardiac health, and a host of other bodily systems.

It's also worth noting that a lot of the weight loss on atkins-type diets tends to be from a loss of water, and that dehydration is a significant risk. And as someone else has mentioned (Fuzzy?) there are a number of nutrients we need whose only food source is in carbohydrates, and that they are nutrients that are not readily absorbed in the form of a suppliment.

Ketosis does burn fat, but the ketones can actually be toxic to us as well:
http://www.afpafitness.com/research-articles/no-one-wants-a-ketone-body

There are merits to revising our diets and switching a lot of our simple carbs to complex carbs high in fibre, and we definitely don't need refined sugar, but there's a reason carbs have been part of our diet for millenia.

I'm a firm advocate that a good balance of foods and a healthy relationship with food (e.g. eating more frequently for nutrition (hopefully still enjoyable) rather than emotional eating) The impression I've had from every scientific article on food and nutrition has supported the idea that eliminating anything from our diet completely can be harmful to our bodies. Eliminating cholesterol from our diets has been shown to result in biosynthesis (i.e. our bodies manufacturing it) and we end up having higher levels of cholesterol as a result. This is why modern nutrition focuses on increasing the "good" cholesterol.

There are some benefits to a low/no carb diet, and I'm not trying to denounce what you have said; what I'm trying to do is illustrate that there are reasons to be cautious about your approach as well.

Sorry!

Missed all posts above ^^^ - reply in a second.

Just found out that the reason my laptop has been so slow - has been because a few months ago I took it apart and only 2GB of the 4GB was replaced properly. No wonder.

grrrrr!!!!!
What an annoyance.

Little Missy
08-14-15, 12:35 PM
No fruit, no sugar, no pre-prepared foods.

Nightmare.

I do fruit, but no sugar, no pre-prepared foods and it is still a lot of work.

SB_UK
08-14-15, 12:52 PM
Should mention -

it's only 'pain' which guides the choice of diet above - with the explanation offered after the pain.

Carbs lead to pain - pretty much what Peripheral wrote.

Also - remarkable weight gain on carbs with a GI - much more than you'd think.

Thinking fat deposition oriented - as a component part of 'keto adaptation'.

KarmanMonkey
08-14-15, 03:23 PM
My eating habits are pretty much health and wellness driven as well, with some compromises... I've learned not to pay so much attention to the scale and how my clothes fit, but more attention to how I'm feeling... Mood, energy, pain, digestion...

Sorry to hear that carbs have such a connection to pain for you. For me, it's a lot of the processed stuff that does it, so my wife and I cook pretty much everything from scratch. I still occasionally resort to fast food, but pretty much always regret it.

SB_UK
08-19-15, 04:10 AM
Apologies - can you give me some info on the following ... ...


[1]
One of the problems with Ketosis is that it's extremely stressful on our kidneys.
[2]
It's also forcing our body to put itself through a lot of stress in order to gain the energy we need to function.


Quick points.

1. Not Atkins - horrible diet - looking at raw vegan ketosis MUFA-enriched.
2. Ketoacidosis isn't Ketosis - the video above ft. Dr. Stephen Phinney gives us his personal and examples of tribes who maintain the ketosis lifestyle.
3. Dr. Eades and Eades (protein power) - Carbs are not required by human beings (as in consumption) - personal theory - we can generate glucose by gluconeogenesis ... ... let the body generate all of the glucose it requires from protein (more efficient conversion) / fat (glycerol backbone) using gluconeogenesis as it likes. We shouldn't give the body that which it can generate for itself - notable examples - vitamins, cholesterol, glucose ... ...
We may have made a fundamental error in human evolution by seizing foods which activate our primitive reward system (associated with insulin production)
-- note (Protein Power) carbs x protein have a bizarre multiplicative not additive effect on insulin production - fast food anybody ? bun x burger
... ... instead of foods which support our higher (neural) reward system <- not associated with insulin production cf epilepsy ketosis diet (Oxford University - John Radcliffe diet - where I've taken MCT oil as an idea from) ... ...
4. Alzheimers (KM - memory) is called (out there) - Type 'III' Diabetes.
As opposed to the real Type III diabetes.
5. Yes - ketosis - loss of large amount of weight initially due to water - easy to assess if people have a weighing scale with % fat monitor.
Contacted Nutrition research centre - % fat monitor machines are accurate (have the publications) - not % visceral:subcutaneous monitors - completely bogus.

Apologies if I've missed any of your key points.

Will address them (remind me !!) in your response.

Thanks for your previous reply - taken me so long to respond - after re-installing laptop memory - had to re-install Operating Sytem - and crazy Windows install an update into Windows Update which prevents Windows Update from Updating my computer ... ... ... what a nightmare -
have Ubuntu waiting to wipe out horrid Windows yuckiness.

SB_UK
08-19-15, 04:19 AM
Key point I'm making.

[1]
Selfish reward system -> Social reward system
ie competition -> collaboration as our thing (reward system activation) conditional on permissive environment requiring global capitalism -> global voluntaryism transition as societal infrastructure (globally).

[2]
Carbs (reward system = primitive reward system) -> Ketones (reward system = higher reward system)
Nobody would pick carbs over fat - fat's a much better (and later evolutionary) fuel.
The mitochondria/peroxisome complex (symbiotes) are our little Gods.

[3]
Genome (reward system = lower reward system concerned with competition for genomic evolution) -> Connectome/Memome (reward system = modern reward system involving collaboration for (in effect) 'fun' associated with cerebellar learning ie becoming of intrinsically higher quality via repetition towards gainign cerebellar automatising capacity).

All of the above (ie the transition) sits at the transition of nonADD into ADD.

KarmanMonkey
08-21-15, 04:06 PM
Apologies - can you give me some info on the following ... ...



Quick points.

1. Not Atkins - horrible diet - looking at raw vegan ketosis MUFA-enriched.
2. Ketoacidosis isn't Ketosis - the video above ft. Dr. Stephen Phinney gives us his personal and examples of tribes who maintain the ketosis lifestyle.
3. Dr. Eades and Eades (protein power) - Carbs are not required by human beings (as in consumption) - personal theory - we can generate glucose by gluconeogenesis ... ... let the body generate all of the glucose it requires from protein (more efficient conversion) / fat (glycerol backbone) using gluconeogenesis as it likes. We shouldn't give the body that which it can generate for itself - notable examples - vitamins, cholesterol, glucose ... ...
We may have made a fundamental error in human evolution by seizing foods which activate our primitive reward system (associated with insulin production)
-- note (Protein Power) carbs x protein have a bizarre multiplicative not additive effect on insulin production - fast food anybody ? bun x burger
... ... instead of foods which support our higher (neural) reward system <- not associated with insulin production cf epilepsy ketosis diet (Oxford University - John Radcliffe diet - where I've taken MCT oil as an idea from) ... ...
4. Alzheimers (KM - memory) is called (out there) - Type 'III' Diabetes.
As opposed to the real Type III diabetes.
5. Yes - ketosis - loss of large amount of weight initially due to water - easy to assess if people have a weighing scale with % fat monitor.
Contacted Nutrition research centre - % fat monitor machines are accurate (have the publications) - not % visceral:subcutaneous monitors - completely bogus.

Apologies if I've missed any of your key points.

Will address them (remind me !!) in your response.

Thanks for your previous reply - taken me so long to respond - after re-installing laptop memory - had to re-install Operating Sytem - and crazy Windows install an update into Windows Update which prevents Windows Update from Updating my computer ... ... ... what a nightmare -
have Ubuntu waiting to wipe out horrid Windows yuckiness.


Atkins is only one example of low-carb diets, but the organizations I mentioned condemned low/no carb diets in general, and weren't specific to Atkins.
Ketoacidosis isn't Ketosis, it's what develops when a body relies too much on Ketosis. It is a fairly frequent issue in people with diabetes who try to eliminate carbs and sugars as a means of control. As far as tribes who maintain the ketosis lifestyle, as you put it, I'd be curious to see what their average life expectancy is as well as what sort of physical health problems they run into.
Do you have any sources that are published in reputable medical or scientific journals? Dr Eades and Eades' website only site publication in newspapers and popular magazines. That's not to say that you can't be right without being published; I just have my doubts when pretty much every major health organization I've come across denounces a low/no carb diet except for people with specific health conditions.

As far as the notion that the body shouldn't consume something it can produce on its own, that's only true if our body can produce the item efficiently. Otherwise, it can be incredibly taxing on our organs, especially our liver and kidneys that filter out many of the toxins our body generates through these processes. Using cholesterol as an example, the cholesterol we manufacture through biosynthesis is the unhealthy cholesterol; the kind likely to produce arterial plaque. Reliance on ketosis has been shown to be taxing to the kidneys.

There is literature showing that ketogenic diets can help brain function in children with epilepsy, but there is also substantial evidence that it can be harmful to our nervous system and brains in the long term.

Sure, there's growing evidence of Alzheimer's being a third form of diabetes. But we're not talking about diabetes, are we? If so, there are a lot of risk factors for diabetes, and developing insulin resistance does not always relate to our level of intake. That being said, if I'm taking 80% of my calories through carbs, that's no good either. But I'd be interested in knowing where you get the idea that a moderate level of intake of unrefined carbs would produce a significant risk of any form of diabetes.

That water-related weight loss is quite taxing on our bodies. Drinking more water helps mitigate that, but it does not eliminate the strain it causes.


All in all, you raise some good theories, and you have had a good experience with a ketogenic diet; I'm just suggesting that the literature I've read does not support the idea that our body has evolved past its need for a certain level of carbs.

In your personal case, as with Unmanageable, the health benefits for your chosen diets obviously outweigh the risks. I am simply pointing out that there is a lot of literature that exists that points to significant health risks associated with ketogenic diets.

Pilgrim
08-21-15, 04:14 PM
What is Ketosis?

SB_UK
08-25-15, 03:33 PM
What is Ketosis?

Basically living on fat not (ie no) carbs.
http://americannutritionassociation.org/newsletter/review-excitotoxins-taste-kills

In particular, glutamate, aspartate, and cysteine are three amino acids that excite our neurons and can be called "excitotoxins."Interesting note

GABA vs Glutmate (a battle)
- vs +

Here's a piccy I've used before from Utah Uni. (http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/beyond/signal.jpg)

Noting ketosis is pro-GABA

Ketogenic diets seem to favor glutamate becoming GABA
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones

And pro-GABA is associated with relaxation cf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine
... ... enhance the effects of GABABenzodiazepenes -> treat -> 'relaxation' broadly speaking.

Key issues with my ADHD - agitated, muscular spasms (stiffness, cramp) ie all treated via ketosis.

Muscular spasm - back pain, inflexibility, asthma (bronchial reactivity) - ?? just over-excitable systems ??
Epilepsy - over-excitable nerves - ketosis diet chills out the CNS - eliinates epileptic cramp (spasm).

SB_UK
08-25-15, 04:20 PM
ps glutamate (parmesan) SEVERE pain.

glutamate <- primitive reward system = umami (sweet,salt) <- FOOD
vs
GABA

SB_UK
08-26-15, 05:17 AM
Atkins is only one example of low-carb diets, but the organizations I mentioned condemned low/no carb diets in general, and weren't specific to Atkins.
Ketoacidosis isn't Ketosis, it's what develops when a body relies too much on Ketosis. It is a fairly frequent issue in people with diabetes who try to eliminate carbs and sugars as a means of control. As far as tribes who maintain the ketosis lifestyle, as you put it, I'd be curious to see what their average life expectancy is as well as what sort of physical health problems they run into.
Do you have any sources that are published in reputable medical or scientific journals? Dr Eades and Eades' website only site publication in newspapers and popular magazines. That's not to say that you can't be right without being published; I just have my doubts when pretty much every major health organization I've come across denounces a low/no carb diet except for people with specific health conditions.

As far as the notion that the body shouldn't consume something it can produce on its own, that's only true if our body can produce the item efficiently. Otherwise, it can be incredibly taxing on our organs, especially our liver and kidneys that filter out many of the toxins our body generates through these processes. Using cholesterol as an example, there is also substantial evidence that it can be harmful to our nervous system and brains in the long term. Reliance on ketosis has been shown to be taxing to the kidneys.

There is literature showing that ketogenic diets can help brain function in children with epilepsy, but there is also substantial evidence that it can be harmful to our nervous system and brains in the long term.

Sure, there's growing evidence of Alzheimer's being a third form of diabetes. But we're not talking about diabetes, are we? If so, there are a lot of risk factors for diabetes, and developing insulin resistance does not always relate to our level of intake. That being said, if I'm taking 80% of my calories through carbs, that's no good either. But I'd be interested in knowing where you get the idea that a moderate level of intake of unrefined carbs would produce a significant risk of any form of diabetes.

That water-related weight loss is quite taxing on our bodies. Drinking more water helps mitigate that, but it does not eliminate the strain it causes.


All in all, you raise some good theories, and you have had a good experience with a ketogenic diet; I'm just suggesting that the literature I've read does not support the idea that our body has evolved past its need for a certain level of carbs.

In your personal case, as with Unmanageable, the health benefits for your chosen diets obviously outweigh the risks. I am simply pointing out that there is a lot of literature that exists that points to significant health risks associated with ketogenic diets.

[1] I think that ketosis diets can be conducted with zero GI (veggie) carbs; they shouldn't stimulate insulin production. Personally I think that fermented zero GI veggies are great. I need data on amounts required to lose ketosis.

[2] Yes - problem confounding effects of adverse environmental conditions ie usually extreme heat / extreme cold result in lack of capacity to farm carbs - which itself should have a negative effect on health. Correction difficult.

[3] Sorry - not exhaustive:
During very low carbohydrate intake, the regulated and controlled production of ketone bodies causes a harmless physiological state known as dietary ketosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/
NOTE
In comparison with glucose, the ketone bodies are actually a very good respiratory fuel. Indeed, there is no clear requirement for dietary carbohydrates for human adults. Interestingly, the effects of ketone body metabolism suggest that mild ketosis may offer therapeutic potential in a variety of different common and rare disease states.

Efficient mitochondrial (/ peroxisomal to mop up mitochondrial free radical by-products) function - particularly biogenesis - towards ATP and heat production (essential for survival) would be the key driver in evol. selection.

[4] However no carbs / animal protein partic. then no diabetes - no Alzheimer's - noting the connection between fasting state / ketosis - and promoting autophagy (neural) preventing neural degeneration.
eg
http://www.cimr.cam.ac.uk/research/principal-investigators/principal-investigators-q-z/rubinsztein

[5] So - you've mentioned
-- Reliance on ketosis has been shown to be taxing to the kidneys.
-- there is also substantial evidence that it can be harmful to our nervous system and brains in the long term.
-- That water-related weight loss is quite taxing on our bodies. Drinking more water helps mitigate that, but it does not eliminate the strain it causes.

I need to know the evidence for these.

karman Monkey
---WATER---
Personally - I hardly drink - wondering whether water production as a consequence of mitochondrial respiration (never usually talked about is the water that's produced) is responsible.

karman Monkey
---KIDNEY---
Kidney effects - wonder if this is related to an animal-based Atkins, processed food (high sodium content) and elevated oxalic acid intake - most notably spinach.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone#Calcite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone#Animal_protein
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone#Other_electrolytes
Note - electrolyte imbalance stresses mitochondria - need ionic gradients to permit mitochondrial membrane voltages to be retained - permitting proton flow - mitochondrial function.

Spinach - an interesting one - note - opiate content (like dairy, wheat)
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/do-hidden-opiates-our-food-explain-food-addictions1 ie addictively alluring.

note - need to check whether oxalate content is reduced on nut/seed soaking.
post edit - you would not believe how much 'stuff' has been published.
Basic idea works eg
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17135028
Pre-soaking cf moderate oxalate content of nuts, seeds, legumes can be overcome.

karman Monkey
--- LONG-TERM HARMFUL ---
It's important to note that we can get into ketosis via bad mechanisms eg long term fasting (resulting in mitochondrial fusion not biogenesis) or eating meat (consequences of factory farming on health) - or by the method I'm advocating of raw vegan. I do add small amounts of blue cheese (to shift to organic at some point) occasionally into the mix alongside cold-pressed rapeseed oil mayo (which will contain some free range egg content).

MUFA-rich rapeseed oil eg
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10545672

[6] Quick point - I think that the Stephen Phinney video above (ok anecdotal) mentions a reversal of heart disease in ketosis (see KM commencts on 'bad' cholesterol biosynthesis).

SB_UK
08-27-15, 06:36 AM
The only trying question is why make the ideal metabolic state so easy to lose - perhaps >5mg carbs, over a certain amount of protein.

The less satisfying answer to this question is that we're actually raw vegans and are designed to eat soluble fibre for gut biomic translation into SCFAs ... ... the more satisfying solution is that we're being prepared for (in analogy with chlorophyll) - melanin catalysing acetate biosynthesis.

So that's kinda' either the cow/cellulose/ruminant model or the radiotrophic fungus model.

stef
08-27-15, 06:43 AM
I do fruit, but no sugar, no pre-prepared foods and it is still a lot of work.

I don't have time to read this whole thread because I'm at work, but why no fruit?
(I am limiting processed foods; slowly getting there! I can have "home made" sugar items. For me fruit is essential, I really feel better having it, than not having it. I've noticed this over the past months.)

Little Missy
08-27-15, 06:47 AM
I don't have time to read this whole thread because I'm at work, but why no fruit?
(I am limiting processed foods; slowly getting there! I can have "home made" sugar items. For me fruit is essential, I really feel better having it, than not having it. I've noticed this over the past months.)

I do GOBS of fruit!!

I don't eat sugar at all except the other day when I made the half amount of sugar rhubarb crisp and ate the whole thing and felt like a slug.

Little Missy
08-27-15, 07:19 AM
I do GOBS of fruit!!

I don't eat sugar at all except the other day when I made the half amount of sugar rhubarb crisp and ate the whole thing and felt like a slug.

It was even worse because I used almond flour -insane amount of calories - ground golden flax and oatmeal and mascarpone cheese and butter along with dark brown sugar. So good.

Prolly eating the whole thing was the problem.

It did take two days to eat though.

Never again.

SB_UK
08-27-15, 07:36 AM
fructose is sugar.
It's the sweetest of sugars.
And given elevated levels eg hfcs - leads to all sorts of problems - partic visceral fat/inflammation.

Sole question is - is there any safe intake level of fruit ?

I don't eat any - berries are a low-ish carb fruit though.

SB_UK
08-27-15, 07:39 AM
However, in certain circles, many people think that fruit is unhealthy.

There are even people who go to extremes and say that fruit is downright poisonous.

These people are usually low-carbers, which do not eat fruit for a very specific reason.

However, someone who is on a very low-carb ketogenic diet with under 50 grams per day doesn’t really have much room.

Instead of spending all the carb budget on 1 or 2 pieces of fruit, it would be better spent eating plenty of low-carb vegetables… which are much more nutritious, calorie for calorie.

http://authoritynutrition.com/fruit-and-low-carb/

Take Home Message

People who are on a low-carb / ketogenic diet may want to avoid fruit, because it can prevent ketosis.

For everyone else, fruits are healthy foods and can definitely be parts of a healthy, real food based diet.

Fermented cabbage all the way !

SB_UK
08-27-15, 07:43 AM
So what differentiates low carbers from standard carbers ?
What differentiates ADDers from nonADDers ?

If it's (an important part of the nature of the change from nonADD to ADD) a metabolic change from non- to keto-adaptation - then the low carbers are ADDers.

SB_UK
08-27-15, 09:42 AM
Here's another big one

Syndrome = acne, benign prostatic hyperplasia, hairloss

acne
In a nutshell, reducing carbohydrate intake reduced the levels of many hormones known to affect acne.
http://www.acneeinstein.com/carbs-fat-hormonal-acne/
benign prostatic hyperplasia
Diabetes may substantially influence the risk of benign prostatic hyperplasia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19846144
hairloss - caused by hormomal (DHT) exposure see quote above

PCOS - the paper above deals with carbs vs fat on PCOS

Type II diabetes

-*-

Human beings have selected for the most addictively alluring diet.
Not the healthiest.

No pill that can be given.

So - as mentioned - need data on weight of '0' GI carbs (like cabbage) can be taken consistent with remaining in ketosis.

Pretty sure that carbs give us an energetic boost at the cost of longevity ie yes you can go faster, but not for longer - a bit like pouring petrol over a candle (representing one's life) - burn brighter but for less time ref telomere shortening with increased mitotic rate
- carbs - supporting increasing rate of growth ie mitosis and with each cell cycle those telomeres reduce in size ... ... ...

We're on the clock and carb intake turns the hands forwards.

SB_UK
08-27-15, 11:14 AM
This is interesting.

Melanized fungal spores are common in the sediment layers of the early Cretaceous period when many species of animals and plants died out which coincides with the Earth's crossing the “magnetic zero” resulting in the loss of its : “shield” against cosmic radiation [12].
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0000457

AND

http://www.astrosciences.info/files/includes/images/magflips_files-image009.jpg
Rapid decay of Earth's magnetic field from 1900 - 2000

-*-

It really looks like geomagnetic flux is giving rise to evolutionary selection for a species which can utilize gamma radiation (via neuromelanin) as a food source.

SB_UK
08-27-15, 11:22 AM
So - the basic story becomes - of course nutritional ketosis is difficult.
However - if we're to become endogenous acetate producers and to eliminate food - then the problem is transcended ie we won't upset the balance through eating.

Not sure about N,P,K etc... ie the inorganic elements required for life though.

Where do these come from in radiotrophic fungae in a nuclear chamber or a spaceship ?

SB_UK
08-28-15, 08:48 AM
USEFUL VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2xhlIIueZY

Little Missy
08-28-15, 01:04 PM
I remember you mentioning that olive oil was not(?) agreeing with you. Have you tried walnut oil? I'm a big fan of walnut oil.

SB_UK
08-28-15, 02:54 PM
Been looking at (all very expensive though) cold pressed walnut, avocado, hemp and sesame oil.

Just have CP sesame and sunflower currently.

EVOO - strange relationship.

I think the basis to EVOO and asthma on running was simply food intake {period} as PNS activation is caused by 'digest' (and rest) and asthma is treated (see Kunga Dorji) by PNS antagonism.
Didn't know that we're more used to SNS agonism.

But it's kinda' the same thing.

SB_UK
08-28-15, 02:59 PM
There's a real big problem with ketosis - Atkins style ketosis isn't very nice to animals.

Dairy/egg ketosis could be nice to animals.

Isn't for the most part now though.

Dairy/egg ketosis has come up several times over eg the wonderful Polyface farm.

Loved their farming ecosystem.

-*-

But but but there's a problem here somewhere.

We're losing the mechanism which drives us to food intake (the dopaminergic reward system which is affected by stimulant meds note eg dex has appetite suppressant properties - was marketed originally to curb appetite) ... ... ....

I can't balance loss of reward system with continued eating - referring back to the EVOO+asthma comment.

What am I suggesting -

we should be living a ketosis lifestyle on the way to wisdom.

Instead we're living a carb/sugar lifestyle straight to diabesitous hell.

The higher the GI's the wilder the mood swings.

SB_UK
08-28-15, 03:02 PM
Note - shiritaki noodles - just tried them.

Effectively no calories, carbs etc.

It may be what we've been waiting for.

http://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2015/03/26/how-to-cook-and-like-shirataki-noodles

Note - this study showed shiritaki noodles contain only soluble fibre called glucomannanAlso - gut biome + soluble fibre -> short chain fatty acids where MCT (medium chain fatty acids) are extremely pro-ketosis.

Suggestion that the lower the size of the carbon chain in the fatty acid - the greater effect on ketosis.

^
|
Could be wrong - just an idea.

SB_UK
08-30-15, 03:48 PM
with regard to healing the sick, i will devise and order for them the best diet.
... ... ... .