Without getting too personal, I was wondering if anyone could give some insight into ADD adults and
the tendency to make poor choices
within the marriage/commited relationship.
I realize that differences in
the way we view our own personal worlds (ADD vs nonADD)
can challenge commitments.

But I would like to understand more about the
desire for "taking risks and stimulating behaviors"
that we read about on checklists for ADD
evaluations
and how this effects the ability of one
with ADD to remain in long term relationships.

I've been married 19 years. Now on dex for 18 months or so, and finding this more of an issue now than ever before.
Cheers!

So do you think this is an ADD, meds, or mid life thing? Or all of the above?
Just curious. Are you saying that it is ironic that controlling ADD has created or exacerbated this issue?

I'm saying that meds, have been an awakening for me. I've come alive like I was when I was much younger. My senses are all sparkling now again. I'm much more keenly aware of what I like and what I don't.

It's showing up in music and films, where once I was unmoved I'm now discriminating.

Books and food, and most certainly sex and women. It's like I'm coming alive.

I wrote an erotic short story last night. I haven't written a thing in years. It was good in my own eyes which is new to me too.

Life just keeps getting more interesting. I've a high libido, but I have not felt attractive in a long time. I'm 46, balding.. well it's just not going to be front and centre in the minds of randy women.

What's happening more and more is that women are smiling at me. What's that about? I'm in a bit of a fluster about it. I like it, but I'm dis tractable and maybe that's a dangerous combo. I'm not interested in cheating on my partner, but I see now how it could happen, and that's brand new.

I'm unsettled by it, but it is a good feeling to be more engaged with the world around me. Things like this renewed vigor or vitality or whatever it is, presents elements that are requiring me to do some new learning.

I have no idea if it's meds, mid life crisis or whatever. I just don't know. I just know I've not felt this good in a long time and I think it shows.

As Tom Waits says: "Opportunity don't knock, has no teeth and she can not talk." I see opportunity everywhere. Not just with women but with the rest of my life. Hope it's not a flash in the pan. It would be nice to think that feeling might evolve into more income!
Cheers!

Been with the same person for a little over 20 years. Never had an affair and don't want one.

Here are my reasons:
1. It would be a betrayal of my wife
2. It would betray my upbringing
3. I wouldn't be able to keep the names straight anyway.
4. Why bother?

Does this mean that my marriage has been a cakewalk? I don't know anyone that is married that says their marriage has been.

Admittedly, I'm a total freak about germies... so touching those I don't know isn't my cup of tea. So that removes any chance of any combination of risk taking, stimulating behavior and sex happening outside my marriage.

I won't even get a massage because it makes me feel so uncomfortable. Tried it once when the wife and I went to resort. Hated it.

For stimulation - I have work. For taking risks - I have more work than I can handle.

Great answers. I was wondering about the treatment, Ian. Thanks
I just began treatment and colors are brighter, food tastes better...

you usually hear about the negative side effects.

*just a note: I don't think people should partake in those risks, just wondering if this is truly an issue with ADDers

For goodness sakes, Ian, sign up for the ADD Forums Men calendar. LOL

I don't think we should be taking those risks either but I didn't think that was the question.

A calender... not a bad idea! hehe

What kind of calendar? Men w/ ADD in the style of Sports Illustrated Bathing Suit Edition? Heck yeah! I'd look. Ian's fishing picture can be Mr. April. Bad Chel. Bad bad bad.

On topic:
This topic has come up before.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3825&page=1&pp=15

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10231

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8946&page=1&pp=15

Feel free to review or continue any of these discussions. (and whatever else you find) Or you can continue here in this thread.

BTW, the middle one I suggested is just for laughs.

I have no idea what kind of calendar. I'd never submit a serious "buns of steel" shot. I have no butt! But a goofy one in drag might be fun. :D

I hate that fishing image! I don't think it's flattering at all.
Vanity bites! eheh

Look up the ADD Forum Men..Is it just Me? thread. I can't remember if it is in the adult forum or the social relationsip forum. Gee, y'all don't get around! You have to read through the thread, because the women can't stay on topic.

LIKE RIGHT NOW!!!! Oh and a couple of men :)

LOL

That was just me in stream of consciousness mode.

And I don't know what's not to like about your fishing pic? I think you're handsome. (*this is a purely platonic statement, nothing inappropriate between an ADD married woman and an ADD married male, this is off topic ramblings*)

Please continue with your infidelity discussion.

If my off topic ramblings get any farther out of hand Andrew is going to re name me "thread_highjacker" :eek:

I married twice to what would be thought of as bad boy types.

First one was exciting, I found out later (6 months) a bit to much. He was using drugs. 20 years later I found out he is Bipolar.

Second and currant husband, motorcycle drag racer and all around race fan. Sound eng. for local bands and older ! No drug use or drinking but alots of verbal abuse. He's been Dx as Bipolar in the past 3 years.

For goodness sakes, Ian, sign up for the ADD Forums Men calendar. LOL


I agree, he's one for a winter month !!

last I saw he had a beard, with ice on it. ;)

The dis tractable thread hijacker is here!

OK you guys are asking for it! Behave. None of this is becoming to a balding married man in the down side of his 40s! It's tremendously flattering and we all know how effective that can be! eheh

Someone start a thread about calendars that I can avoid please!

Light snow flurries are here today and by Wednesday we'll have a high of two degrees above freezing! Welcome to the great white north!
Cheers!

bald and married in great white north would befit the December page just fine. I'll tell Digi-girl to expect you for your photo shoot...

I've been married 19 years. Now on dex for 18 months or so, and finding this more of an issue now than ever before.
Cheers!You are entering the "positive state"... That can be tough on relationships. It actually increased the rate of decay in the last year of my marriage.

"positive state" = loving who you are and how you think = distancing from culture and seeing your potential = feeling your personal power = bad things in a marriage because once the need for structure disappears... well you get the drift.

I am not heading into a marriage anytime soon because of this... now I am not at all against marriage but I need a MUCH wider berth than most people to be myself.

I am a bit of a free radical these days... I kind of like it :) I will settle IF I find a woman that needs the same berth as I do and I find her amazingly attractive :)

Anyway, The positive state IS the healthy state for ADD. We are extracultural so cultural institutions can be problematic when we are in the healthy state.

I know several ADD couples that have incredible open marriages. There is almost no insecurity. With ADD, love forged is love everlasting... unlike like that cheap plastic crap that they sell us in the movies ;-)

Right now... I like spending time with an ADD woman friend and am always on the lookout for more friends to bring into my circle. Platonic or not...it makes no difference to me, just as long as both people benefit.

bald and married in great white north would befit the December page just fine. I'll tell Digi-girl to expect you for your photo shoot...
Ian slumps back in his chair and hangs his head... defeated! :faint:

Chain you hit the nail on the head about entering a better place internally. It has been hard on the marriage but my wife is a brave soul and my love for her runs deeply through many aspects of our lives, so I remain optomistic about the learning curve ahead.

It's pretty darned exciting any which way I look at the future.
Ian. the thread hijacker.

How come you can say damn? Somebody's not doing their job. I'm going to report this to the administator.

How come you can say damn? Somebody's not doing their job. I'm going to report this to the administator.
You seem to be the first on this page. ;) zing! ehhe

Because, I just got here to call them on it. Boys, NO cursing this is a family forum and you must adhere to the forum guidelines. *grins to self* That was much like telling your parents to behave. *grins*

Ian I think that for the calandar you should submit your avator from this winter. You know the cute, sweaty, rosey cheeked, snotty nosed one always a personal favorite of mine. lol

I think you guys are on to something though. There is something incredibly sexy about a man who is secure and loves himself faults and all.

I personally don't see myself as a sex symbol but then my husband thinks I'm sexy so thats about as far as I need to go and energy wise I don't have the stamina to carry another mans ego on my back let alone my poor husbands. *smiles*

ps why cheat when I've been with my husband for 13 years not to mention the five before that I spent wanting to be with my husband. To me he hasn't aged a day since we first starting dating. I know his pants size is bigger because I buy a bigger size but I can't see it with my eyes. He's still the sexiest man alive though many women would probably not agree that is of no importance to me.

Ian slumps back in his chair and hangs his head... defeated! :faint:

Chain you hit the nail on the head about entering a better place internally. It has been hard on the marriage but my wife is a brave soul and my love for her runs deeply through many aspects of our lives, so I remain optomistic about the learning curve ahead.

It's pretty darned exciting any which way I look at the future.
Ian. the thread hijacker.It is isn't it?

You are lucky to have such a wife! I personally will not go out of agreements (like fidelity) in a marriage because I keep good to my word (I think that is vital in the "positive state") I never "cheated" and never will... but if a relationship is open, then I certainly will excercise my options if I have them.

I have found though, that I tend to work best in a monogamous mode because entering new relationships takes lots of energy (not to mention tons of communication, whew!)... It sure is nice to look though :) It is even better to be looked at! (and know that it is happening)

Hence, the calendar. Plenty of room for addresses and other such communication. Comes with a variety of colored sharpies for every occasion.....record your birthdays, anniversaries and soccer matches. An opportunity to fufill your need for looks but not for touch.

Hence, the calendar. Plenty of room for addresses and other such communication. Comes with a variety of colored sharpies for every occasion.....record your birthdays, anniversaries and soccer matches. An opportunity to fufill your need for looks but not for touch.
Colored sharpies to draw on your partner with...I personaly like drawing maze like patterns that radiate out from the belly button. Better to not draw where the skin can be seen when wearing clothes...

Yes, that keeps my attention! Pile my passion into art! Nothing like art on a lover's body...

Oh yeah, the calander...have to write on that too!

did you guys forget? the sharpies are for connecting the dots. anyone with freckled legs?
You guys don't believe me, but I've gotta tell you from experience it's ecstasy. Great July activity, fashionable for the swimsuit photoshoot.

did you guys forget? the sharpies are for connecting the dots. anyone with freckled legs?
You guys don't believe me, but I've gotta tell you from experience it's ecstasy. Great July activity, fashionable for the swimsuit photoshoot.
I have done this too...You treat the freckles as stars and either draw the usual constellations or make new ones with fake myths to go with them... best done naked ...of course!

Dang, I have got to find me a lover with some time on her hands!

My my my. While the cat is away the mice will play. Where has Minn been, she's obviously not doing her job. :p

So what month shall chain be? How about Mr. September since that's when we all need to buy school supplies. :eek: Stock up on sharpies :D

I have done this too...You treat the freckles as stars and either draw the usual constellations or make new ones with fake myths to go with them... best done naked ...of course!

Dang, I have got to find me a lover with some time on her hands!


Man, I feel so cheated... I don't have a freckle on me...

Maybe I can get a prescription for "Spottera" or "Freckalin". :)

That sharpie thing sounds fun... I'd probably put my eye out with it by accident though...

:eek:

California is chock full of the unfreckly. :(

Motorbrain can be Mr. December...dress yourself up in a Santa suit for the photo shoot.

Ok, I'm putting my Moderating Foot down!!! This thread is so far off topic I'm starting a new one in chit chat.

We were discussing ADD affairs, the internal spontaneity and temptation, and the determination to be committed and true to our word.

bald and married in great white north would befit the December page just fine. I'll tell Digi-girl to expect you for your photo shoot...
Good thing some people collect photographs, Art :D :foot: :D :cool: ..........:eek:

I think affairs fall into the impulsive portion of ADD. I have done a lot of stupid things that I can't take back; but that is not one of them. I have been with my husband for 17 years and I know that is a line I will never cross, he is too good of a man and I have too much respect for him. Even if it is a fling, the damage would be permanent and I have way too much at stake.....

Maybe this should be on a different thread but it still relates to the subject. Just wondering what constitutes a fling? Is a fling an affair?

Does an affair always involve the physical? I can see where the ADD risk taking and impulsive behavior would be a moving factor for an illicit physical relationship.

What about an affair of the mind ...as in fantasy...or a long distance and elusive affair? Would that fall in to the risky and impulsive category even if it were thought out and well planned?

Same risk to a relationship?

One of our dear Administrator's started a thread dealing with the ADD calendar since we have hijacked this one. I think it wise to utalize the new thread rather then continue to abuse a very serious topic.

Many hugs,
Cherity

Personally, I think affairs have more to do with low moral standards rather then ADD. I don't think ADD is an excuse nor should it be allowed to be used as one IMHO. You made a vow now stick to it or call it quits all together. I've heard a ton of arguments on why people cheat. I've been told that about 75% of men think about cheating but see a major difference in thinking and actually doing. I saw the pain that my father cheating caused my mother I would never put my family thru that kind of torment; because, I know first hand it doesn't just affect the husband and wife but the kids as well play a major role in the ramifications of cheating I believe nothing he says any longer nor what I was told as a child, it has made me completly doubt my upbringing and I'm an adult imagine a child being forced into this situation...NO thanks its just too selfish. :soapbox:

Without getting too personal, I was wondering if anyone could give some insight into ADD adults and
the tendency to make poor choices
within the marriage/commited relationship.
I realize that differences in
the way we view our own personal worlds (ADD vs nonADD)
can challenge commitments.

But I would like to understand more about the
desire for "taking risks and stimulating behaviors"
that we read about on checklists for ADD
evaluations
and how this effects the ability of one
with ADD to remain in long term relationships.

I married twice to what would be thought of as bad boy types.

First one was exciting, I found out later (6 months) a bit to much. He was using drugs. 20 years later I found out he is Bipolar.

Second and currant husband, motorcycle drag racer and all around race fan. Sound eng. for local bands and older ! No drug use or drinking but alots of verbal abuse. He's been Dx as Bipolar in the past 3 years.


I'm sorry did I misunderstand the question? I got from what you posted was about what kind of person are you attracted to and why. Sorry :o

I've never had an affair, I wouldn't do that to my husband or boy friend

Maybe this should be on a different thread but it still relates to the subject. Just wondering what constitutes a fling? Is a fling an affair?

Does an affair always involve the physical? I can see where the ADD risk taking and impulsive behavior would be a moving factor for an illicit physical relationship.

What about an affair of the mind ...as in fantasy...or a long distance and elusive affair? Would that fall in to the risky and impulsive category even if it were thought out and well planned?

Same risk to a relationship?

This is only my opinion and how I would react. But, I would be deeply hurt if my husband started talking exclusively and seductivly with another woman online the thought would be there, he would be hiding it from me and it's hurtful. Now thinking about someone unattainable such as him daydreaming about Fahrah would not bother me at all for some reason. Strange what hurts and what doesn't.

Hi NF. I agree one hundred percent. ADD not an excuse. But can it be a contributing factor? Interpersonal relationships gone bad are a common red flag in ADD, true?

Somebody I know - ADD/bipolar walked out on her husband and children on impulse. Three children and husband left behind for an invalid ten years older than herself.

The kids were all in school, so they knew the story. It has affected them deeply.

I was just wondering if ADD would be a contributing factor in those who already have those tendancies. Possibly an issue of having difficulty looking at the long term ramifications of poor decisions?

Maybe this should be on a different thread but it still relates to the subject. Just wondering what constitutes a fling? Is a fling an affair?

Does an affair always involve the physical? I can see where the ADD risk taking and impulsive behavior would be a moving factor for an illicit physical relationship.

What about an affair of the mind ...as in fantasy...or a long distance and elusive affair? Would that fall in to the risky and impulsive category even if it were thought out and well planned?

Same risk to a relationship?
I think there are many ways to cheat. I'm a stimulation junkie and that's always been the case and is so typical of an ADHD. There is nothing more stimulating to me than the initial flirtations of chemistry igniting. None that I know of anyway.

I always thought a fling was a one of type deal, short lived and an affair was a longer term and usually more committed thang.

I don't think it has to always involve the physical, but I can't imagine not being moved physically, so, is that an affair of fling? I think so.

I am stunned to find myself not nearly as intimidated by this topic as I once would have been. Since going on meds areas that were once black and white are now shaded in seemingly infinite tones of grey.

An affair of the imagination, as in fantasy or a long distance dance, is not nearly as risky in my mind. I've a rich inner life and have always enjoyed reading and writing, so am not entirely unfamiliar with the possibilities in this. I still have some letters kicking around here somewhere from my hormonal youth.

It would still be risky, but that depends on how open ones relationship with your partner is I think. PU always is firm on her stance that she's not bugged by me noticing a distracting woman, but only if I bring that energy home.
Cheers!

What about an affair of the mind ...as in fantasy...or a long distance and elusive affair? Would that fall in to the risky and impulsive category even if it were thought out and well planned?

Same risk to a relationship?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ok. another related question. If the relationship is of the mind, fantasy, long distance, elusive...and it brings positive energy into the marital relationship without the partner knowing....is it still an affair?
Wouldn't it be the same as erotica, only interactive?

Yes the same risk if it's not out in the open.

In the mind or wherever it's an affair in my heart. I'm not entirely opposed though so don't get me wrong. All risk isn't bad. Besides there is always the option of cultivating it in the open.

Yes it would be the same but erotica wouldn't qualify for me.
Wish I had time to write today!!!

I think it is personally against our nature not to have multiple people that we love. This may be true for all people but especially so for ADDers. A healthy relationship is rooted into security and communication. I personally do not "understand" the term cheating unless it is violating a spoken rule. Unspoken rules and ADD do not mix...period. In fact they should be written down. We need to negotiate with our partners what is acceptable to them and what is not. If we cannot meet those terms, we need to let them know.

I do not feel that love can be owned. Love is the "marriage of true minds".

With ADD we are moment by moment people. We focus on who is in front of us at the time. There is no way around this. Two ADD partners may be able to come to terms with this but it is much harder between ADD and non-ADD (a bigger difference than gender!). We hyper focus on people as well. I think that the main reason that ADDers (maybe non-ADD as well) have affairs is this "lock down the heart" thing that we are taught to do. I think it is unhealthy. Jealousy will happen but it is a sign of unhealthiness. I recommend the book "the Ethical Sl*t". Even though it is geared towards polyamorous relationships, it is an eye opener for us monogamous types as well.

I can really understand sexual monogamy (disease and in-love issues) but do not see the purpose in not loving other people... in fact I think it is good. I have not had a closed relationship in almost 3 years... but I tend to be monogamous. I am not worried about my friend abandoning me because I know the love is true.

As far as the non-touching sexuality (like online, etc...) I think that is fun and should be explored safely. Getting yourself off with another person just should not be that threatening to a marriage...if the marriage is healthy. (Everything that is hidden is threatening...so a green light from your SO before you even consider this :) )

Just my odd ideas :) almost nobody ever agrees with me on this stuff, so I am going to sit in my corner now ;)

I have a very active fantasy life but no follow through. Teasing and inuendo usually satisfy my distractability issue.

A fling to me is a non-touching but wildly flirtatious relationship where two people consider and fantasize an affair with each other. Dangerous ground.

I prefer outlets for my imagination like writing and reading something "inspirational". My hubby does not object to the latter. Nothing is as good as or better than the intimacy (and all that implies) we share.

Her is a cut /paste from my post on a thread about obsessing.
I do think is it an escape and I do it because it automatically quiets everything else. As far as I am concerned, it is harmless, private and not open to judgment. As for feeling guilty for my thoughts or fantasies- forget about it, it is always your actions that count. Remember, ADD minds are constantly seeking excitement and stimulation. Frankly as long as I keep it to myself, getting that teenage “rush” by obsessing (privately) about an acquaintance or whatever is pretty safe considering the alternatives. I also think that it keeps a fire burning in my rather ordainary life.

Intimacy is the key in the pair bonded marriage. It takes me a long time to build intimacy with a person, so that ends up being the reason I tend to be monogamous. I don't sleep with people I don't love.... I decided on that because I touch people for intimacy, not for sexual release.


In my strange mind, a hug is as intimate as sex but is not a partnering thing...

It comes down to what needs sex meets, in my mind...

1. Release (can be done by self or with a non-pair bonded partner without touch)
2. Intimacy (needs simple touch with another human that you love)
3. Self Esteem (Can be gotten by flirting)
4. Procreation (Definitely the purpose in a pair bond)

1. Can be done with someone I find attractive on a physical lor mental level

The first two in combination can only happen with a trusted, loved partner.

2. can happen with platonic friends through a hug or non-sexual sleeping together.

3. can happen with friends and people that you just (strong communication with friends)

4. Happens within a married partnership

A good marriage should at least the first 3.

Thanks in advance for not flaming me on this. When I put my views on relationships out there, people often get angry. Since this thread talks about affairs, I feel a bit more comfortable doing this.

I am pretty much heading towards celibacy at this point because my views are so odd. It is simply not worth it to try to synch them up with other people. I also feel like a creep for even thinking about being sexual with someone I am attracted to... Still trying to work that one out :)

I don't even have a partner and I don't cheat, lol!

<<<I would be deeply hurt if my husband started talking exclusively and seductivly with another woman online the thought would be there, he would be hiding it from me and it's hurtful. Now thinking about someone unattainable such as him daydreaming about Fahrah would not bother me at all for some reason. Strange what hurts and what doesn't. (quote Nucking Futs)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If the woman were anonymous would that make a difference? If she were a real woman, but unattainable? How would that differ from reading erotic material or listening to a recording, watching a film?
----------------------------------------------

<<<<< An affair of the mind is not nearly as risky in my mind. I've a rich inner life and have always enjoyed reading and writing, so am not entirely unfamiliar with the possibilities in this. I still have some letters kicking around here somewhere from my hormonal youth. (Quote Ian)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
…….areas that were once black and white are now shaded in seemingly infinite tones of grey. (Quote Ian)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

So there are no lines or boundaries? Every affair is measured on a spectrum of severity...completely subjective to the marital couple?
-----------------------------------------------------

<<As far as I am concerned, it is harmless, private and not open to judgement. As for feeling guilty for my thoughts or fantasies -forget about it, it is always your actions that count. Remember, ADD minds are constantly seeking excitement and stimulation.Frankly, as long asI keep it to myself, gettig that teenage "rush" by obsessing (privately) about an acquaintance or whatever is pretty safe considering the alternatives.guilty for my thoughts or fantasies- forget about it, it is always your actions that count. Remember, ADD minds are constantly seeking excitement and stimulation. Frankly as long as I keep it to myself, getting that teenage "rush" by obsessing (privately) about an acquaintance or whatever is pretty safe considering the alternatives.I also think that it keeps a fire burning in my rather ordinary life.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

An affair is an affair if it involves actions?

An affair of the mind can be healthy for the marriage,
but a physical affair is always damaging?

What if the physical affair does not include a physical partner, such as in self love?

What is a physical affair? Is it only physical if touch is involved?
-------------------------------------------------------

I am glad I've appointed myself as keeper of the questions......
Annie

I don't understand your last statement. The rest of what you've said seems pretty healthy. You are not odd. Considering the emotional involvement in a physical relationship and the risk of an STD should it be "casual", you are acting maturely and responsibly. But what do you mean by "I also feel like a creep for even thinking about being sexual with someone I am attracted to... ".

Do you mean you feel you may be thinking in a disrespectful way towards someone who is merely an aquaintance or a friend (or less)? If so then are you for real? Excuse me, that's not going to come across in the awe in which it was meant. I suddenly feel like a goddess and that wasn't remotely directed towards me, just you having that much respect for women as a gender is very complimenting. But perhaps that's not what you meant at all.

Mind you, I don't think you're a creep if you do have sexual thoughts towards someone you find attractive. It doesn't make you a pig, it makes you a healthy man with healthy desires. What you do with those thoughts shows the content of your character much more.

Do you mean you feel you may be thinking in a disrespectful way towards someone who is merely an aquaintance or a friend (or less)? If so then are you for real? Excuse me, that's not going to come across in the awe in which it was meant. I suddenly feel like a goddess and that wasn't remotely directed towards me, just you having that much respect for women as a gender is very complimenting. But perhaps that's not what you meant at all.

Mind you, I don't think you're a creep if you do have sexual thoughts towards someone you find attractive. It doesn't make you a pig, it makes you a healthy man with healthy desires. What you do with those thoughts shows the content of your character much more.Well, I was raised by a single mother and the men in her life were pigs... So I go through phases of feeling like I am a creep... It is really strange and makes no sense. I go through phases where I don't feel like that and where I do... I am in an unhealed relationship mode these days :) It will pass... Since I don't sense when women find me attractive, it makes it even more frustrating.

One of the many little strings that becomes tangled when I get better in another part of my life.

Regardless, I am pretty happy with who I am so it will untangle at some point!

I should leave this thread, since I am single and can't have affairs, lol... Well I did when I was not married with a woman who was...I will never do that again... the karma gets you anyway you look. So up with honesty!

I am glad I've appointed myself as keeper of the questions......Annie You are a good keeper, I would say that anything outside of honesty is bad.

Everything is ok if people communicate and hold their partner with the utmost esteem. The healthiest marriage I have ever seen was with two ADDers in an open marriage... they knew where to place the emphasis...unwavering truth and communication. I don't think people's marriages need to be open to have this ;)

Negotiating honestly with my partner is how we have stayed strong. We had a great chat tonight about this kind of thing. I don't think the fundamentals are uniquely available to ADD/ADD mates. Intimacy is the key. It's a huge investment over a long period, teamed with an uncanny ability not to assign blame.

PU has never believed that her shortcomings are any less influential than mine. I have a hard time accepting that, but it's become easier over the last 18 months or so. She's remarkable in that way. I know very few, as just as she is in her actions and her words. She's set the bar high, and that has been perfectly suited to my need to rise to the call on my own. I choose to rise, I'm not pushed to rise.

I too make a clear distinction between sex for release and intimate contact. I prefer to combine the two. The release is a pale imitation.

Honesty is a wild ride if "out" isn't always the early option. When we were first together and for a long time after, PU would instantly offer to leave at the first sign of conflict or different views. Now it's not like that. We have consistently trusted in the process enough to relax a bit when things seem confused or conflicted. Tonight was no exception.

Again it was confirmed that there are real differences between what we need sexually but our needs intimately seem well matched. I'm good to go, so to speak, as long as I am bringing that energy home. I think it might freak some people out to think that a marriage could benefit from a more open stance but I'm not one of them. If I have more energy for sexual exploration in every possible way that she does not, then it only makes sense to me that she should not feel obliged fulfil that role completely for me. I hope that came out ok.

If she is informed to the degree she wishes to be, and she is benefiting from less stress on our intimate time, I can only see good things from the limited cheat. (so to speak).

I don't think this degree of tolerance, trust, and combined interests, is common, but I do think that it's attainable between any two that are committed to the higher ground of intimacy. I'm sounding pretty full of myself here. Someone just knock the legs of this thing will ya?


If the woman were anonymous would that make a difference? If she were a real woman, but unattainable? How would that differ from reading erotic material or listening to a recording, watching a film?

I don't think the line is the same for everyone, obviously. Because of the open and frank discussions I have available to me in my marriage, I would think that the whole ball of wax would be much more malleable for us in the open, than if the contact was unacknowledged or hidden completely.

Ok now sleep!

Well, I pick em about as well as FastTalkinMom and am on marrige #2.

In all modesty, I'm a very good-looking guy who attracts the bad girls big time.

No affairs, I was sorely tempted once during marrige #1. I used to park at the Tandy Center lot in DT Fort Worth to get to work (free parking). You parked and took a short "subway" (more like a bus on rails) ride into downtow. I deliberately started walking 1 mile from the lot to work to avoid the women on the subway so I wouldn't be tempted to flirt.

artsmartbabe You asked a really good question, in my opinion.

I do not have troubles maintaining a long term relationship for the most part (I was married for 14 years and now divorced for NON-ADD reasons). I'm faithful and monogamous in my long term relationships. I do have problems getting past the communicaitons barriers to form intimate relationships in the first place. Getting the understanding and the trust going to establish an intamate relationship is a tough one for me. I've been hurt too many times to take big risks (but I still do). Short term stuff is a real problem for me.

At the same time, I have a history of being impulsive in my love life, and I tend to dive right in once I think it is safe to go for it. I'm impulsive in love, sex, and in the social aspects of my relationships, and I get digned a lot by impulsiveness, so It makes things difficult for me.

I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve and that means I crash and burn a lot. It also makes me easy prey for bad people, so I have to watch out for sociopaths, co-dependents, user/abusers, etc. A risky way to operate, but the only choice I have , considering my neurology. Now and then I end up getting hurt, but now and then I get a pleasant surprise, so I guess it is worth it , overall. The alternative is to give up and retreat from life, so I'm going to keep moving forward as best I know how.

Do you see the pattern here ? The contradictions, the opposites? That is the thing I find so curious about ADD.

Glen

I've been mulling over this thread for a bit.

And although I have made some comments on it already I would like to add a few more.

In regards to what's appropriate in a marraige:

It's been my observation that most people parse lying, deception and sinning in a way that is most beneficial to themselves. So let's tackle that first.

If a person cheats in a marriage and doesn't say anything about it... it's a sin (as defined as a something that goes against moral law or is a transgression of some sort against another).

To keep cheating a secret, a person has to deceive the other. This is the one where people parse the most. Keeping a secret, if it's meant to deceive, is a lie. Those that would betray tend to say that as long as they don't verbalize the lie - it's not lying. Ultimately though, deception (or the sin of omission) is just lying spelled with more letters.

Then there is the matter of betrayal. When one decieves/lies they are betraying someone else, defining themselves and redefining the relationship between them both.

Say that a partner goes to their mate and discovers that an affair as happened or is in progress. For me that means from the date that the affair started/occurred is pretty much the day that the relationship ended. If that rolls a 50 year marriage back 30 years - well, that's just the way it is. A relationship with a lie in it isn't a relationship so much as a fallacy. And who wants to live that.

Now that you know what sin, lies/deception and betrayal are in my world - let's move on to behavior.

I have a "written in stone" policy in my life. Lie to me and you get the boot - and I could care less when the lie happened. I don't judge people for making lousy decisions unless they are trying to be hurtful... But why should I spend one second more than the time it takes to say "We're done." if I find out someone has betrayed me? I expect the same that I give - if I don't get it - there is NO POINT in being together.

If a relationship is invalidated either completely or partially it doesn't matter to me. I just turn it off. If the liar thinks they have a relationship with me - they don't. I may not judge them but there's not much point in keeping that relationship going. I have always remembered my contributions to certain relationships for what they were - given in trust. I just have filed those relationships in the mental box called "poor investment" and have left it at that.

As you can probably tell, I've been betrayed in my life, yet I tend not to feel bad about it. Because when it's been discovered/unveiled and confirmed I have immediately ended the relationship. I don't feel bad about being lied to, I feel bad about putting any additional effort or contributing anything to a relationship that has been shown to be a lie.

In regards to behavior and when one crosses the line into affair or fling - it's pretty simple. If you should be giving something of understood value to your partner and are sharing or giving it to others instead - you've crossed the line. In essence you've robbed Peter to pay Paul. That is the essence of cheating. Giving to another what you should be giving to your partner.

One refrain I've heard from a few cheaters is that they have enough love to go around. Sadly, the point they miss is that it's not up to them to determine if that's true or even acceptable. That's up to their partner - I don't know many people that would stand loving someone fully while being loved partially in return. Who want's to be cheated like that?

Been physically intimate with someone other than your partner? Have an online relationship that is intimate enough to take an iota away from your real life relationship? Lied to your partner so you can be intimate with another? In love with someone other than your partner?

There's a line and you're on the other side of it.

So there it is. The Motorbrain guide to what constitutes cheating, lying, deceit, sin and altogether - betrayal. I know that it seems pretty harsh, but in the end, it's really not at all. I've ended relationships because of my partner's behavior and have not felt at all bad about it. In some cases I got the "Ha! I sure pulled on over on you!" response to which I replied - "Yes, but all you've done is define yourself - so why should I feel bad about being lied to by a liar.. Isn't that sort of the way it works?". I've also dealt with the tearful "Please forgive and forget" to which I've replied quite simply and without rancor... "No".

It sounds mean, but it's surgically precise and allows all parties to heal without particularly large or visible scars.

I sure sound rigid about this don't I?

That's because I am. :)

Best,
Motorbrain

Thank you for sharing Motorbrain.

While I see what you're saying and admire your high standards, I can't help but disagree with just one point. About forgivness, I don't ask anyone to forget all my failings and shortcomings, and I'm not excellent at forgetting a wrong committed, but forgivness is important.

Not everyone sets out to betray, hurt and deceive, they were impulsively foolish and regret it and want to make amends. They want to better themselves and be accountable to the person/people they have hurt. They want to make things right. If there is no forgiveness, that is not possible. You've made your bed, lie in it. One chance and you're out. I can't do that with everyone, especially if I ever have the blessing of a 50 year marriage. I can't turn back time and say that the last 20 years don't count because he (or I) did something stupid at some point. There are other questions I'd ask, there are things I'd want to know.

If I was duped, he's out on his butt. Justifying it with no apology, not ok. If he made a mistake...I can forgive a mistake and work at our marriage so that we both learn out of the pain and make things stronger instead of letting the weakness break it altogether.

I'm sorry for what you went through and that you were so badly hurt. I'm not saying that your situation was an example of a time to apply forgiveness and try to work things out. My point is that relationships in general are not limited to a little box with simple answers, no more than an individual is, because there are too many dynamics there.

True, forgiveness is important for many things. But in the arena of love it's a bit different for me. Would I leave my wife because she fibbed about letting the dog out? Not likely.

But the foundation of a relationship is the behavior that makes up the relationship, the commitments made and kept. I simply couldn't forgive myself if I failed to keep my promises of fidelity to another... so how could I forgive someone that had committed that transgression if I wouldn't forgive myself?

One of the reasons that I'm so very rigid in the areas of commitment is that it keeps *me* on the straight and narrow. Very early on I had to decide what was right and wrong, then determine a way to stay on course.

During that journey it became clear that while we all have situational ethics - at some point everyone has to draw a bright line that must never be crossed. For me it's keeping the commitments made and not accepting it being broken by either party. Everyone is different and while some folks can handle their partner making mistakes - I won't.

I've been propositioned, the target of lame attempts at seduction and flat out asked for sex. My response has always been "Thank you, that's very flattering but I'm married and simply can't". I know *exactly* how difficult it is to say no. I also know how easy it would be to find a lover outside my marriage... and it's not for me - a few of my partners in the past haven't made it over that bar and confessed their dalliances. I never got angry, I just accepted that they weren't the right person for me and I moved on.

I think it's wonderful when others find a path that allows them to forgive a mistake. Forgiveness is a great way to make some relationships even stronger... just not mine. :)

Thanks!
Motorbrain

hmm affairs vs.flings. physical vs. emotional..or combo.
i personally don't think that having affairs is a moral issue in the sense that i'm not willing to think that someone is a horrible or immoral person if they do that. you're talking to one of them. i never had a physical affair, i had an online friend that was too friendly and i did have two people in my life in the last three years that were too close for comfort and we developed romanticized feelings- although i never deemed them as affairs- it seems they were since i'll be going to marital counseling over this shortly. it never requires sleeping with someone to have a scarlet letter slapped on-
lest ppl start my bonfire to be roasted in b/c i said its not so much of a moral issue this 'cheating' thing-
i think its an extremely complex topic. i never wanted to hurt my husband for instance- i was undiagnosed with post partum deppression and suicidal..but nevertheless i chose the wrong things to prop me, and this i understand, it was my severe weakness that has hurt my husband.
but i do realize that life isn't black and white. we think it is until we are there. i remember telling my husband that i would leave him if there was the slightest whiff of impropriety- now i realize that i love my husband and family so much that just leaving him would be the most difficult thing to do as well as staying with him to heal together.
this is where i am now and although i must apologize about my behavior- and for breaking my husband's heart- i am not a horrible person, nor an irresponsible person- nor a 'cheater'
anyone in love has the best hopes and intentions for their lover
there are too many situations to be named where that can fail. would i freak out if my husband did the same thing to me? oh yes i would. i would never deny that. but i'd realize that it had nothing to do with his absolute disregard for me etc. i don't believe that. i think there are so many other reasons why these things happen. if it weren't the case, and it was so simple as just a simple tangible moral decision- there wouldn't be the rampant cheating that is here with us today. (b/c surely something like 70% of the worlds population is utterly evil and immoral and uncaring)
i would say that having adhd undoubtably leaves you more vulnerable to this as we do seek high levels of stimulation and i knew that i was playing a game and it was making me feel good- but its the wrong drug. i was using this like one would use a drug. to have someone constantly validate to you in words and expression -that you are the best most wonderful person in the world is intoxicating.
its not like having to deal with all the asides of a real relationships. its a pure fantasy that doesn't exist. i retreated into a sandstorm of words...

I used to be so black and white about everything, including flings, affairs, and cheating. Now most things are much more fuzzy. Life is so much more complex than I once understood it to be.

The variables seem endless, and my willingness to forgive, my patience and tolerance for peoples various humanness, has expanded exponentially as I have learnt to forgive myself for some of my part in the human condition. Gads! What a wordy guy I am!!

I know I could forgive my wife a mistake, if she was authentic in her disclosure and amends. Our marriage is so much more dynamic now than it was twenty years ago. It's about so much more and those things are interrelated in so many more ways all the time, that I'd find it impossible to forecast a position ahead of the event.

Our needs have changed too. I'm much more gregarious and far more sexual than she is. We have come to a point where that's not just tolerated but accepted and embraced. It's allowed me freedom in areas that might be considered cheating by some, in order that there is space in our marriage for both of us. I hope that's clear.

The older I get the less I know for sure, and the more gentle I am with myself and others. I like that.
Humility, patience, tolerance and forgiveness for me are medicine for my soul.
I've been a hard **** too long to want to say there.

I think both of you have valid points and it's great that you are doing what is best for your relationships. Every marriage is different and agreement can be reached between those that have a forgiving nature.

f_wcomboadhd, you mentioned stimulation and of course I, like you, am addicted to it. That's why I tuned myself to deny myself relations outside my commitments. It's simply too easy to do. I just seek thrills in different ways.

Ian, I guess it's different for me. As I've gotten older I've become more black and white in some areas - specifically this one. To be sure maturity brings the realization that not everything can be cut and dried the same way... but it also brings the experience to make better decisions. I expect just that from my wife (and myself) at this midpoint in our lives.

MB

Wow when i hear people that have been together , 10, 15 or 20 yrs, i am like :eek: :eyebrow: :faint: oh my dear, how is it possible. Me i had 3 major relationships in 20 yrs and i can honestly say that after 1 yrs, i was darn tired of them.

But today , in the ''GULP'' beginning of my 8 th year as a single celibate almost nun gal, i realize that i choose people that never brought anything to the relationship, for my exes communication was non-exisiting, and i guess they thought that a relationship is not important enough to work on. I was taken for granted by the 3 guys. I also understand that it was me who let them play me, i guess i had to go thrue that to be where i am today. And i love it.

Ok i am changing the subject here lol...eventho my relationships were very very bad, as i did let verbal abuse, and other things happened i neve thought ones of cheating on them. No actually i did think of it, as i did have the chances a few times during our relationships, but i never went thrue them, i beleive if you need to go somewhere else you have to serously look into your life, and see if it's really worth , and if it is,,,,i would break up with my partner before i would.

HOpe this make sense lol...i am confused this morning :eek: :p :)

"Cheating" is a widely variable term.

"Cheating" is a widely variable term.
I agree :)

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9653&page=1&pp=15

This thread has been reopened, feel free to continue here or there. Just wanted to give the option and keep things available for everyone's oppinion to be heard and questions answered.

OK, we'll weigh in here, now that everyone has had a chance to open up a little.

(Can't blame us for hijacking the thread, this time…)

Concerning the original question, here's the bottom line: AD/HD appears to have a relationship to cheating because it endows us with the ability to be consciously aware of the processes at work when cheating happens.

We can see something in ourselves, and we want to understand it. But we’re no more likely (less, actually, after we learn to stay away from snakes) than anyone else to cheat, regardless of how we define it.

Ian's posts are right on, and I'll bet he wouldn't be too unhappy seeing his situation like this: before his meds, he was depressed by the constant numbing nagging presence of the low level communications that are all about mating.

The drugs essentially set him free to look the situation in the eye. So of course he's more aware of it, and his response. But he's also aware that he's making choices, and he's beginning to work out what they are, and how he should choose, and how he and PU should interact in that choice.

The reward is right there in what he posted, too: nobody can begin to imagine what making love is all about until they consciously enter into the kind of intimately intertwined relationship we ADDers are capable of building.

Seriously.

Much of what we are able to experience isn't even written about, no salacious references anywhere we can find, not in any kind of porn or literature, scientific or otherwise. And remember, we’re talking about sex, s-e-x, and it's everywhere.

So if there are significant parts of the experience that aren't even hinted at in any of the millions of DVDs out there about it, we must be talking about something very new, and very special.

* * * * *

What we’ve been discussing starts with communication itself, and in one very real sense, we can think of all human communication as purposeful.

But why the disparity in our different ways of seeing what's happening? If Kay and I are right, and we truly are achieving a consciousness of these interactions for the first time, shouldn't we be seeing the same things in it?

The answer is, we are. Only, there are two different and conflicting aspects of the behavior we’re seeing. It's not a simple thing to look at and resolve, because it's all natural, and it all feels that way, too.

It's all too easy to convince yourself that any particular aspect of the built in behaviors related to mating is appropriate by definition.

But how is it even possible that we could have two conflicting sets of behavior, if they're both built in? Wouldn't that tear us apart, in a way that would be detrimental to the underlying purpose, the continuation of the species into the next generation?

We'll get back to how that works in a bit. First, a story.

* * * * *

This is a true story of one of our many experiences with this stuff. It happened when we were in school, which was when Ian was still in short pants.

I attended Carnegie Mellon; Kay went to Pitt. They’re about a ten minute walk from each other, so we survived the temptations of college life during the Summer of Love pretty much intact.

I mention this only by way of pointing out we’ve been through most of the libertarian philosophical takes on the subject personally, and we thought pretty deeply about how we wanted to define ourselves and what we were willing to accept in our own (and other's) behavior.

One night, in the middle of the week, a girl I barely knew called me from her dorm room, one dorm up from mine. (It was only because I lived in the dorms, and nearby, that I knew her at all.)

She said she had a friend visiting from New York, and she wanted to present a proposal to me, would I mind coming up to her room for a minute?

I said no, tell me what you want first. So she says the girl was visiting a few weeks before, had seen me walking around (what a crock, eh?) and had some weird logic in her mind about a connection between me and her, largely based on some permutation of her (now former) boyfriend's name.

I was ready to hang up when she put the girl on, and her story was incredible: she was technically a virgin, she had huge issues with it, it was what broke up her former relationship, and she had discussed what she wanted to do in depth with her therapist, who whole-heartedly approved.

(Remember, this was the Sixties. Everybody was supposed to love everyone and everything, and it was all groovy. Paul Simon said so.)

This girl begged me to at least give her a chance to talk face to face, and somewhere in there I must have lost my mind, because I eventually hung up the phone and trudged reluctantly up to her friend's room.

You should understand that I was active and well known on campus as a resource when someone had a problem, whether it was a bad drug experience of some personal thing or whatever. I rarely made it through an entire Friday or Saturday night without someone banging on my door. So in that sense, the girl's phone call wasn't totally off the wall.

(Spring of my senior year prospective students started asking to tour our wing of the dorms, mainly an artists enclave. I had no idea how high school students from out of state had heard about us, and we all started wearing underwear again. The dean of students later told me we were considered the most out of control social group in the history of the school, and an invaluable asset worth protecting.)

I was certain that the whole idea was a recipe for total disaster, that no matter what she wanted or thought she wanted, it wasn't really that. And I felt reluctant because I was certain I was only going to burst her bubble, and there isn't any good way to do that.

To cut to the chase, the further it went, the further it got, and eventually she and her friend managed to create the impression that a logical reason existed for me to participate in her little ceremony, all with the explicit understanding that it wouldn't really help her with her problems at all, and would quite likely make things more confusing.

And we all agreed that it was going to be a mess no matter how hard we tried to be caring, or perhaps because of how hard we tried to be caring. Eventually, the girl I knew left for a while, and if course, it was.


* * * * *

Now, I'm no particular prize, and I'm not proud of all this at all, so don't mistake this as bragging. It's more to show that what guys do brag about is always bogus, not worth mentioning or having, either. The real stuff seldom gets mentioned, and never in the context of a brag.

I walked away that night totally confused by what had happened. And I was consciously aware of what we were dealing with at the time; Kay and I had a significant chunk of this worked out already, although the neural network theory that ties it all to our brains had to wait until 1977, when we got a copy of James Albus' seminal 1971 paper A Theory of Cerebellar Function.

So what happened? We were already insulated from such things; that was exactly why I was able to discuss in detail with these two girls exactly what we were dealing with, and how it was bogus. And they were able to speak cogently of the same things, they knew it was bogus, totally out of the question, not a good idea, won't help, all of it. And please, do it anyway.

If this sounds like some lack on their part, it isn't, or at least, that's not the point. This was a lack on my part, and the fact that I could even think someone might not see it that way is also the point.

Kay and I hadn't yet worked out the details of how deeply these things are embedded, and we knew nothing of the mechanisms that (essentially) made me temporarily blind for just long enough to make a really stupid decision, which I have regretted since.

If that girl from New York is still out there somewhere, I am still sorry. If anyone didn't get that the first time, I apologized to her before and after, and meant it.

If this makes it sound like the actual act was a horrible experience, it wasn't. But it's useless even trying to talk about that. The point is these things are always about the stuff that goes on out of bed, before and after. Take that away, and there is no such thing as cheating. Duh!

So why did it happen at all? Good question. The short answer is, you can't trust yourself, or anyone else either.

Especially if you've got it all figured out.

* * * * *

Let's look back at animal behavior for a minute. (Come on, humor us. It won't hurt much.)

An animal (say, a dog) is born with certain instincts to act in certain ways in given situations. How does that work? Are we saying dogs don't make decisions, that they have no free will in the sense that they can be thought to interact with their perceived reality?

Not at all. All animals make decisions; it's the reflection on the behavioral level of the underlying operation of the neural structures that determine our moment-by-moment function. But there is a significant difference between how a dog responds to a situation and how we respond to a similar situation.

In a dog, there are hardwired instinctive behaviors that determine its course of action once a decision is made to act in a given situation. The behavior is natural and (in this sense, at least) entirely pre-determined. (The outcome is not, of course, but the pattern is set in stone.)

We don't have the same direct connection to our underlying hardwired instinctive patterns of behavior. Why not? Because that would fatally interfere with the highly useful faculty of free will and self determination.

Our ability to sculpt our own circumstances is a significant advantage, and our sense that we are free to do so is the driver that keeps us engaged in the business of being.

So there must be an intermediate level between the hardwired patterns of behavior and our individual versions of them, and of course there is. Our individual models of behavior evolve through a series of more or less conscious choices; we perceive the available patterns, and act on whatever seems to be most appropriate.

So compared to a dog, we have an additional layer between the lowest levels of instinctive behavior and the level of our conscious experience of being. The direct connection is broken, and in its place is a complex pattern of behaviors that amount to choosing to implement a copy of the behavior patterns that make sense.

And that's the rub, right there: we all believe that we are able to make those decisions in a consistent and sensible way, and that no aspect of the process is unavailable to our casual inspection.

If that were true, we wouldn't be having this little discussion.

* * * * *

Returning to AD/HD for a minute:

The ability to perceive this process, even if only in part, does not imply the ability to speak about it coherently, or at all. The general form of the experience of making these choices is purely gut level stuff, seldom discussed because it doesn't rise to that level.

So (for example; sorry, Ian) if Ian is more openly engaged in the interactions with others that seem to bring him a good, positive feeling about himself, that's the process at work.

The positive feeling is the carrot (or one of them, at least) that pulls us along through the process and ultimately can cause us to misstep, if that's all we can see of it.

That shouldn't imply that Ian's in any danger; quite the opposite. It's why we're having this discussion, and we were really glad to see that he was discussing exactly this with PU. (Do we have to call her that?)

But it is important to understand what the subject is, and get to that point before the fog rolls back in and we’re off stuck in a boggy spot again. That's where AD/HD comes in, in spades: we each of us have the potential to perceive elements of our own experiential reality in a way that is new to the species.

* * * * *

Just about the only thing really necessary to permanently free ourselves of this stuff is a simple recognition of the menu we face when we look inside ourselves for an appropriate pattern of behavior.

It's important to remember that all of the choices are entirely natural, in the purest way. Making a choice on that basis is the first thing to toss out, or at least suspend. We need to first look at the ways that these natural patterns conflict with each other, and resolve that.

It turns out that the ability to make these choices has been exploited nicely by the process of selection, exactly because it's possible for two conflicting patterns of behavior to coexist. That wouldn't work in a dog, or a squirrel, or any animal other than the higher primates that have learned the trick of free will and self determinism, however limited.

Conflicting models of behavior cause an animal to freeze up, rather than act. That has little to recommend it, if we’re talking about survival. But it is a particularly good description of a newly minted teenage boy, isn't it?

Which is where this all begins, and the first overt evidence of the conflict within each of us. It's not too hard to transcend, but it takes conscious awareness of behavior that will clobber you in the eye of you're not careful. Like Kay says, It's Everywhere.

And every step is replete with danger; witness Ian's blossoming awareness of his social situation, and the way that it affected his feelings of himself. We're all vain, at some level; it's reflected in the way Ian mentioned how good he felt.

Make no mistake about it, feeling good is a Good Thing. But how far do you have to go in pursuit of that to find yourself in a bit of a pickle? In Ian's case, it was only as far as PU's side, and a series of conversations that will probably seem pretty important in years to come, to both them and their daughters.

Didn't think much about that impact, did you?

* * * * *

Right there's the fundamental dilemma in all of this: it's impossible to apply the traditional measures of correctness when making the decision of how to act in a particular circumstance.

We're all talking along nicely here, innocently trying to get a bead on how we get caught in something that isn't really in our best interest, or the best interest of others, talking about forgiveness and standards of behavior and principles and all of that,

and all the while supporting a subtext that's openly flirtatious behavior, regardless of how innocent: the ADD Forums Men calendar thing, and quite a bit of the rest of the banter off the main subject as well.

We don't mean to be critical, only to point out how truly deep the problem goes. All human communication has at its heart one purely natural purpose, and it's not about understanding anything.

It's all originally mating behavior, and if we added understanding to the purpose of human communication, that was probably influenced by the same goals.

Are we proposing that we all stop flirting and dry up? No, just that we stop flirting. Can we do that without losing something intrinsic to the ability to feel good about ourselves? Yes, but this is the meat of the issue; it's really hard, and it requires more than one person to accomplish.

We don't mean that everyone needs to run out and find a life partner. We simply mean that communication is bilateral, and any communication that transcends the original primitive purpose will by definition be between at least two people that understand that intent.

Kay and I have been trying since we joined these forums to gently champion that process, and it seems to be having an effect. It's important that we’re all able to like ourselves, to feel good in terms of what that really means. But it takes some thought to do it with dignity, while affording others their dignity as well.

Should Ian give up accepting the attention that he receives, the interactions that make him feel good about himself? No, but he needs to have a way to remove the feeling from it's implied context. Then it'll be safe for him to enjoy it, and by that, I mean safe for him, the women that engaged in these interactions, PU and his daughters as well.

Remember, these interactions communicate exactly the opposite of his shy denial; the women that smile at him in that way would be perfectly happy to see him on a calendar. There's no problem with that, in the purest sense; it’s a recognition that he meets a certain standard, and the pleasure he feels in that is hardwired. Take it away, and you shut off an important bit of yourself for which there's no substitute.

Chain (and many of the rest of us) probably has no problem with any of this; it's only a matter of being certain about your own motives, after all. But the problems creep back in exactly because communication is bilateral.

No matter how certain Ian is of his motives, and how well (and honestly) he communicates them to PU, there's always the problem of how the other person perceives them, what their expectations are, and what they’re willing to do to support them.

That would be enough, a problem for some that could be beaten with resolve and principle, but it's just the beginning. Ian carries the same templates of (seemingly) appropriate natural behavior, and he also carries an essential human defect: he is not able to refuse communication with another.

That might not seem to make any sense, but it does. Can't we refuse to speak with anyone we wish? To an extent, yes. But we’re talking about communication on a level that isn't traditionally accessible to us. And yes, here’s the same old refrain about the role of AD/HD: we are able to see it, but we have to learn to do it before the ability can help us in any real way.

Ultimately, Ian and PU will learn to share the joke, and their daughters will see it and come to expect the same. Kay and I have the best time thwarting the obvious intentions of strangers, and enjoying the attention all the same. We're all immersed in it constantly, male and female, but the men are always the biggest hoot.

We've learned to recognize the uncontrolled low level assessment of our selves that drives the behavior, and it's easy to accept that, because it’s pure and real and has no intent attached. But it might be a trick for PU to learn to recognize and accept Ian's honest assessment of another woman, and a real trick for Ian to see the same in her.

So it’s complicated, and plays out on layer upon layer of interaction, implication, and reaction. It can stem from the simplest glance at another, or of another, and the seriousness of it shouldn't be dismissed. We have nothing but sympathy for all of those people that have had terrible battles over seemingly innocent events; the truth is almost always that they weren't innocent at all.

* * * * *

Finding the path to sensibility in all this isn't easy, and isn't possible at all without the help of AD/HD. By the same token, it's therefore not a problem for normals, because they can't get confused by what they can't see.

Or it wouldn't be, if it weren't for two factors: normals are attracted to ADDers like anyone else, and males are males, regardless of the details of how their brains work. Men are notorious for pushing an advantage, real or imagined, once they get it in their heads that there's something to be won.

My experience in college notwithstanding, women are far less likely to try to find and exploit the primitive weaknesses built into all of us. The truth is, that girl from New York and her friend simply set me in the right place and let me go. After that I did all the work for her, sad to say. And right from the start I had it firmly in mind to not participate under any circumstances.

We don't mean to be excessively negative about this, or alarmist. The truth is, we can do this; Kay and I are living proof. Ideas like forgiveness and such are much more meaningful when you can see why things happen the way they do. The idea of forgiveness seems almost quaint to us now; if my eye or Kay's is caught by something on TV (for example), we both see what it was and why, and the implication is only that we're human first, and individuals second.

The person that made the commercial (or whatever) was clever enough to exploit that, just like the girl from New York. But it loses all significance unless we carry through on the implications of our impulse, and buy the product. We stubbornly refuse to do that, be manipulated by clever images in ads, even if it means a modest sacrifice on our part.

In the end, that's the answer, or a big part of it, anyway. Once you see the system in action, no matter how overwhelming it may seem at first, you learn one certain thing: you make choices, and that includes deciding what the significance of a particular communication might be.

It's entirely in our control, all of it; if you're female, that means that males are all standing around hoping that you bought the whole package, both the meaning of a casual communication as well as the implications associated and expected.

That's a pretty desperate assessment, and it's accurate. And for that reason, you have to be on guard, especially women. The worst that happens to men usually isn't Eileen Wuornos, but something closer to that girl from New York.

Obviously, women face a much more serious threat, and so we believe it's doubly important to learn how to turn those patterns of behavior to your own ends as early in the process as possible, as early in life as possible.

And not to beat a point to death or anything, AD/HD is the only hammer we know that's big enough for the job.

So bang away, and have fun…


--Tom and Kay