View Full Version : MTHFR/ADHD clarification


shane_udhf
09-13-15, 06:57 PM
There has been some post with links to web sites saying its a scam or what ever.....none the less I am not saying that MTHFR gene mutation is the cause of ADHD. The take away from this web site that I found helpful is folic acid is very important in the body and any medical doctor would make that assumption. That being said I looked at what Ben lynch was saying about MTHFR which simply put is it could effect how folic acid is processed in the body. I guess am biased on the subject since my son was found to have the mutation and also thyroid issues that I would have never know without the blood work.

Lets take the MTHFR gene out of the equation and just say we have a child that is not processing folic acid like he should....what could be the consequences? well it would effect neurotransmitters somewhere along the way,and if you do you research you will see what all folic acid plays a roll in. I spent the last 9 freaking years listening to doctors telling me that my son's ADHD was caused because of neurotransmitters and dopamine. These were licensed pediatricians by the way. They would give the spill of your son is low on dopamine but never would tell me why!!! They just prescribe stimulants and away you go on a roller coaster ride of a life. You look at your son one day and he is twitching and jerking and the next he is blinking out of this world, being made fun of etc....

Some kids respond to stimulants but most of the time there is side effects that come along with them and that's not a big secret. My child did not respond in a positive way to stimulants so ultimately I searched and prayed and finally found a doctor who was able to make a difference in his life and now he is not on any stimulants.

As a parent we have to use our judgment and make decisions on our children's well being and healthcare which can be a science experiment in itself. There is not a miracle cure but there is other ways of treating ADHD other than just giving drugs. You read all the post and it's the same thing over and over and lot of same questions. Let someone post a success story and you get crucified and ridiculed.

dvdnvwls
09-13-15, 09:15 PM
Are you saying that this biology student whose work you read on his own private website has discovered the true cause of ADHD, but he's keeping it a secret from the scientists because... wait, why? I'm confused.

Lunacie
09-13-15, 10:02 PM
No one knows for sure what causes ADHD. We only know that it's highly
heritable. Doctors can only tell you what the most current research has
shown, and they generally prescribe the treatment that research shows
works with the fewest unwanted side effects.

Every day there is more research being done, both to understand the cause
and to find better, more effective treatment with fewer drawbacks.

You didn't say what kind of treatment you are using for your son since you
stopped giving stimulant meds. Can you tell us what that is?

shane_udhf
09-14-15, 12:00 AM
My sons doctor ordered several test and based off the results he was lacking key vitamins and minerals. He was deficient in magnesium, vitamin d, zinc, iodine, and some that can't spell. She has him taking a good multivitamin, fish oil, two different forms of magnesium, coq10, iodine, vitamin d, a chelate called chelex. He takes a good probiotic also and we try to stay away from gluten but when you have 4 boys that's hard to do. The doctor prescribed him one ten day round of medicine to kill yeast before he began taking probiotic. I did not know that antibiotics kill the good bacteria in the gut. My son kept getting sick before he had tonsils out so he took several antibiotics. Yeast tends to fill in where the bacteria used to be. Every child is different and exposed to different environments so they may require different things. I don't recommend to anyone to blindly start taking a bunch of supplements Without guidance from a professional. My son takes some in the morning and some at night. The magnesium is taken at night. I mentioned before that my son does have the mthfr mutation so he takes methyl protect for that as Do I until my results come back from my internal medicine doctor.

On a side note I recommend vitamins and minerals that are from the USA if possible due to the fact of the knock offs on the market. I do not buy from my sons doctor however I do use xymogen supplents which are a reputable company. There are others such as Pure and Metagenics to name a couple.

shane_udhf
09-14-15, 12:20 AM
Look Dvd you must be confused, you found a web site that had someone ranting about Ben lynch I am not concerned with that. It is the science behind what he was saying that interest me. As far as I know he never said he discovered this gene mutation but rather he studies and experiments with rats on the issue. His site has forums with real people posting on it just like here so if you really want to know about MTHFR I suggest you ask the people who are dealing with this and what there life experiences are because that is where the learning can be done. Check out Walsh research institute also while you are at it.

I typed in on Google is dr. Ben Carson a fraud and just as I figured according to Google he is lol. I don't think anyone here really believes Carson is a fraud.

moth2flame
09-14-15, 01:24 AM
I posted a big reply on your other thread before seeing this one... but shane, I agree with you!

The hate for this one doctor who runs a website (and he IS a doctor... why call him a "biology student" except in attempt to try and discredit him? see my other post in your original thread for more explanation...) is extremely confusing to me, because my OWN prescriber (a PHMNP who prescribes my stimulants) has recently become interested herself in the potential role of MTHFR gene mutations in psychiatric disorders. She even emailed us (clients on her email list) some information about it, just last week, from sources completely unrelated to the doctor mentioned above! She stated that she's excited by what she's been reading on the subject lately, and hopeful that there may be further help available for us and our disorders.

What she is NOT saying is that any of us should stop taking our traditional ADHD meds IF they are still helping us AND we wish to continue them- simply that there may be new discoveries occuring now about how these disorders may originate, and that we have new options available to try in addition to the meds (or try instead of meds, in the case of people who cannot tolerate the stimulant side effects).

And I should note that I absolutely respect and trust my NP; I chose her because of her extensive experience with treating ADHD adults, and how much she actually understands and cares about ADHD. If she has no reason to doubt the authenticity of this emerging new science, as an ADHD specialist who keeps current on the latest science, well then, I don't either!

sarahsweets
09-14-15, 04:55 AM
How much did all this testing cost and how much do you pay per month for these supplements?


There has been some post with links to web sites saying its a scam or what ever.....none the less I am not saying that MTHFR gene mutation is the cause of ADHD. The take away from this web site that I found helpful is folic acid is very important in the body and any medical doctor would make that assumption. That being said I looked at what Ben lynch was saying about MTHFR which simply put is it could effect how folic acid is processed in the body. I guess am biased on the subject since my son was found to have the mutation and also thyroid issues that I would have never know without the blood work.

Lets take the MTHFR gene out of the equation and just say we have a child that is not processing folic acid like he should....what could be the consequences? well it would effect neurotransmitters somewhere along the way,and if you do you research you will see what all folic acid plays a roll in. I spent the last 9 freaking years listening to doctors telling me that my son's ADHD was caused because of neurotransmitters and dopamine. These were licensed pediatricians by the way. They would give the spill of your son is low on dopamine but never would tell me why!!! They just prescribe stimulants and away you go on a roller coaster ride of a life. You look at your son one day and he is twitching and jerking and the next he is blinking out of this world, being made fun of etc....

Some kids respond to stimulants but most of the time there is side effects that come along with them and that's not a big secret. My child did not respond in a positive way to stimulants so ultimately I searched and prayed and finally found a doctor who was able to make a difference in his life and now he is not on any stimulants.

As a parent we have to use our judgment and make decisions on our children's well being and healthcare which can be a science experiment in itself. There is not a miracle cure but there is other ways of treating ADHD other than just giving drugs. You read all the post and it's the same thing over and over and lot of same questions. Let someone post a success story and you get crucified and ridiculed.

ADaptHD
09-14-15, 06:13 AM
My sons doctor ordered several test and based off the results he was lacking key vitamins and minerals. He was deficient in magnesium, vitamin d, zinc, iodine, and some that can't spell. She has him taking a good multivitamin, fish oil, two different forms of magnesium, coq10, iodine, vitamin d, a chelate called chelex. He takes a good probiotic also and we try to stay away from gluten but when you have 4 boys that's hard to do. The doctor prescribed him one ten day round of medicine to kill yeast before he began taking probiotic. I did not know that antibiotics kill the good bacteria in the gut. My son kept getting sick before he had tonsils out so he took several antibiotics. Yeast tends to fill in where the bacteria used to be. Every child is different and exposed to different environments so they may require different things. I don't recommend to anyone to blindly start taking a bunch of supplements Without guidance from a professional. My son takes some in the morning and some at night. The magnesium is taken at night. I mentioned before that my son does have the mthfr mutation so he takes methyl protect for that as Do I until my results come back from my internal medicine doctor.

On a side note I recommend vitamins and minerals that are from the USA if possible due to the fact of the knock offs on the market. I do not buy from my sons doctor however I do use xymogen supplents which are a reputable company. There are others such as Pure and Metagenics to name a couple.
So, this doctor diagnosed your son with vitamin/mineral deficiencies, heavy metal poisoning, a MTHFR mutation, and a gut bacteria imbalance? Doesn't this give you pause?

shane_udhf
09-14-15, 12:03 PM
no the doctor did not do it, but the toxicology test did. It is what it is.......by the way I did not mention but I still work hand in hand with my son's pediatric doctor and he goes over all the results of the test that are performed. the more I research and talk with different parents that I come in contact the more I am able to piece together this big puzzle. For instance my son has always had really bad dandruff in his head, I would give him head and shoulders but still would not go away. he kinda developed a complex about it because he was scared other kids would make fun of him so he wanted his hair long as possible to try and hide the flakes. His flakes are gone now, and just last night as I was reading on walsh research institute that had an article about a lot of kids that were ADHD seem to have low Zinc....my question is why do all these kids have low zinc? now I did not say all kids have it before someone reads more into what I am saying....but the statement was made and you know what my son did have low zinc.

some of the parents that have adhd children that have grown up with my son are seeing a difference and you know what they are starting to ask questions because they did not read it on a web site but they seeing it with their own eyes.

shane_udhf
09-14-15, 12:55 PM
Sarah, I am at work currently but will be home in a day and will be able to list the test and what company they were from. my insurance paid a big portion of the test that had to do with toxicology, urine, and some more blood work. I will tell you this that I paid 2500 dollars for the dr visit all the test and the supplements. I waited a year to see this doctor so I saved up the money.....I got back from insurance somewhere around 800 dollars. his follow up visits are 210 dollars before insurance reimburses me like 150 back.

The supplements that I purchase for my son comes from xymogen. I do not want to take a chance and give my son something that is not what it says on the bottle. the vitamin mineral industry is huge and a lot of counterfeit stuff is out on the market. xymogen products are tracked from the factory to the customer for the simple reason of reliability. as far as prices ...the methyl protect is 48 dollars for 120 capsules, the vitamin d is 20 dollars for 90 capsules. The magnesium called optimag 125 is 26 dollars for 120 capsules. the Co Q max is little pricey at @$ 50 for 60 capsules. he takes a metagenics fish oil 720 which is 20 or 30 dollars if I remember correctly (240 capsules). There is a probiotic that he takes and I can't remember the brand or cost but its not much I am sure. There is a couple more that he is taking but will not take anymore because his levels should be where they are supposed to be according to the doctor. I have been told that I can write off the cost of the supplement due to the fact that they are prescribed by my sons doctor. I will find this out for sure when I see my CPA for taxes. I hope this is of some use...

Lunacie
09-14-15, 06:54 PM
I also take Omega 3 and Vitamin D3. Some people apparently don't make
enough of these from natural sources and never will. When I've stopped
taking these, I could tell the difference within a week. There are a couple
of other posters on this forum who take Omega 3 and feel worse when they
stop.

I don't spend a tenth of what you're spending and can't afford to.

shane_udhf
09-14-15, 10:14 PM
To be honest I could not either but I just made my mind up to start putting back little here and there and when my income taxes came in I took out what I needed to take him. I try and space his stuff out so I don't have to buy it all at once. I buy 120 or 240 capsule when I can and get a better value. he does not take the dosage on the bottle on every thing. she has him taking some half doses on some of the stuff so that works out good for a couple of them.

ADaptHD
09-15-15, 01:52 AM
no the doctor did not do it, but the toxicology test did. It is what it is.......by the way I did not mention but I still work hand in hand with my son's pediatric doctor and he goes over all the results of the test that are performed. the more I research and talk with different parents that I come in contact the more I am able to piece together this big puzzle. For instance my son has always had really bad dandruff in his head, I would give him head and shoulders but still would not go away. he kinda developed a complex about it because he was scared other kids would make fun of him so he wanted his hair long as possible to try and hide the flakes. His flakes are gone now, and just last night as I was reading on walsh research institute that had an article about a lot of kids that were ADHD seem to have low Zinc....my question is why do all these kids have low zinc? now I did not say all kids have it before someone reads more into what I am saying....but the statement was made and you know what my son did have low zinc.

some of the parents that have adhd children that have grown up with my son are seeing a difference and you know what they are starting to ask questions because they did not read it on a web site but they seeing it with their own eyes.
I still don't get it. So the "toxicology test," not the "doctor," diagnosed your son with vitamin deficiencies, heavy metal poisoning, a MTHFR mutation, and a gut bacteria imbalance -- so which one of these is the cause of your son's symptoms?

sarahsweets
09-15-15, 04:22 AM
How is a toxicologist allowed to diagnose anything?

shane_udhf
09-15-15, 10:58 AM
what i am referring to is hard cold factual evidence that is not just hypothesized. you can actually see the science..... now the question is why, so that requires more study...what is the common link in all this...better yet what is the trigger for all this...

We are all aware that there are different approaches to treating adhd and no one has found the magic cure yet...... the doctor that is treating my son now takes a more scientific approach. She wants to make sure the blood chemistry is right, the digestive system is working like it should because we are what we eat....a lot of things happen in the stomach and intestines....pretty much where we are able to get all the nutrients that sustain our bodies so that they can function at optimal levels. She did not just randomly decide to test these things.....

These doctors know to look for this stuff because they see it everyday after treating hundreds of kids....just like the pediatrician knows that medication will help in kids with adhd. They did not just treat one kid with meds and say hey this works on adhd.......they did a study and come to a conclusion...

I truly believe that there is an underlying cause of adhd and hopefully one day it will be discovered, however you can not just keep treating symptoms and expect to find a cure! because it is like a domino effect and never ending. you give one medicine and something else shows its ugly face....which is why i still hold my breath hopping things continue well with my son

Lunacie
09-15-15, 01:46 PM
Are you saying that this new approach is more scientific than the science has
been so far? I do think the gut is linked to quite a few modern problems, and
that's because antibiotics disrupt the natural bacterial system.

But ... as I pointed out before ... doctors have been seeing the symptoms of
ADHD for centuries, long before antibiotics, long before processed foods, long
before a lack of physical activity.

So if some people have ADHD systems because their bodies or brains don't
process their diet to get the nutrients needed for good brain function, they
may need to supplement those nutrients for their whole lives.

shane_udhf
09-15-15, 11:17 PM
you are right about having to continue to take the supplements...something in the body is either broke somewhere or not functioning at full capacity...I rather my son take the supplements with no side effects for the rest of his life than medication.

My boys doctor has a son with adhd.....that is what inspired her to go to medical school because she did not want to medicate. she said the doctor tried to give him Ritalin and she refused to give it. she said the doctor told her that her son would not amount to any thing and that he would never be normal....she said at like 30 years old with 2 kids she went to medical school just so she could find a way to keep from medicating. her boy is grown now and still takes supplements. I asked her if he ever got off them and she said he has tried a time or two but gets right back on them because he can tell the difference.

sarahsweets
09-16-15, 03:56 AM
what i am referring to is hard cold factual evidence that is not just hypothesized. you can actually see the science..... now the question is why, so that requires more study...what is the common link in all this...better yet what is the trigger for all this...
Where are the links to the cold factual evidence? And I mean science beyond one person's antecdotal experiences.

shane_udhf
09-16-15, 10:01 AM
the doctors have discovered the links....I have said before that they enter all the testing into lets say a data base. well after so many kids having the similar results, one could almost assume that there is something going on. my son's doctor told me that she does not see same results in kids that do not have adhd......The day that the doctor saw my son she spent 5 hrs with just him no running in and out between patients. She asks a lot of questions getting to know the parent just as much the child. She explained everything to us to make sure that we truly understood all that she was saying. Sarah the factual stuff that I am talking about is the testing and results in my son's case. I read in your sticky post that your son had bad writing well my son did also...you could not make heads of tails of it half the time. Since getting on the supplements his writing has really improved. my son did not want to take his medication either but I made him until the doctor said he was pulling him off of them due to lack of positive improvement.

I have never posted on a forum in my life before this one, and the only reason i decided to was because i know how it is to battle adhd and to watch your child suffer and be made fun of and so many other things. The adhd actually stole time away from my other children because of all the time spent at the table going over school work year after year. i know a lot of parents that can't wait for school to start so the kids will be gone for a while.....me it was just the opposite i wanted it to be out so i did not have to stay at the table and paying tutors. i have not had to sit at the table at all so far this school year and that is quite an amazing feat. my child is happy and not crying because of having to study all the time......

The only thing we did different was see a different doctor who treats adhd with a different approach. She prescribed supplements and diet change and told us when we walked out that we would see improvements right away......i have to go through my sons med file and look up those test for you Sarah....i have not forgotten.

Lizzie80
09-25-15, 01:49 PM
I believe people need to investigate all claims very carefully, look at the motivations behind recommendations for all treatments, and ensure that what they are putting in their body or their child's body is as safe as possible.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelationindex.html

Shane/moth: While Chelex is legal for sale in the U.S. so far as I can tell, are there any studies backing up its usage in children or adults by independent verification? Not something related to a sales pitch, which is all I've been able to locate on the Internet?

Are you in the U.S.? I ask because it is illegal to try untested drugs on human beings in the States for the purpose of treating genetic mutations, and ADHD is a long way off from even being proven as a genetic mutation. Can you please provide links to studies showing that ADHD is definitively linked to heavy metals, as well? I think most of us simply want to prevent any sort of false hope or untested, unproven or illegal methodology being promoted, which is why I ask for further info. Thank you.

shane_udhf
09-25-15, 05:17 PM
I believe people need to investigate all claims very carefully, look at the motivations behind recommendations for all treatments, and ensure that what they are putting in their body or their child's body is as safe as possible.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelationindex.html

Shane/moth: While Chelex is legal for sale in the U.S. so far as I can tell, are there any studies backing up its usage in children or adults by independent verification? Not something related to a sales pitch, which is all I've been able to locate on the Internet?

Are you in the U.S.? I ask because it is illegal to try untested drugs on human beings in the States for the purpose of treating genetic mutations, and ADHD is a long way off from even being proven as a genetic mutation. Can you please provide links to studies showing that ADHD is definitively linked to heavy metals, as well? I think most of us simply want to prevent any sort of false hope or untested, unproven or illegal methodology being promoted, which is why I ask for further info. Thank you.

Lizzie, i appreciate your approach as you replied to my post. You want links as everyone else is looking for links on the web....Everything i state on here is not from the internet. I talk to the doctors in person and other parents that are also having the same things done. I will tell you this much that i run everything that is done to my child by his pediatrician that he has been seeing pretty much since he was born.

As far as chelex is concerned its not a drug but merely a supplement that helps the body rid itself of heavy metals. It is an oxidant so to speak. As far as these doctors are concerned they have went to medical school and are not violating any laws. I provided you with an article that explains some on the metals. People are wanting a magic pill like a simple med to take......it does not work that way. It takes a lot of dedication to go the distance and get the results. Its not an over night thing. If you truly want to grasp this I suggest you start researching each metal one at a time and exactly what it does to the body. I would start with lead if i were you and then move on to mercury, and then aluminum. Lead is the hardest to get out of the system because of how it is retained in the body. Maybe if you understand these metals you will see how having too much in the body could cause problems. I don't want any false hopes and each case that a doctor sees is a new case because everyone is different. I asked my son's pediatrician if he could chelate and he said he has done it for lead. He said that he would chelate my boy if needed BUT he would prefer consulting someone who specializes in it because chelation can get rid of good minerals and metals in the body.

I see on the news quite often how scientist are trying to figure out the connection with aluminum and Alzheimer's....is that because they are seeing elevated levels of it in the patients?

Lunacie
09-25-15, 05:37 PM
Studies have failed to confirm any role for aluminum causing Alzheimer's.
Silver amalgam fillings in teeth have not been shown to cause Alzheimer's.
http://www.alz.org/alzheimers_disease_myths_about_alzheimers.asp

shane_udhf
09-25-15, 05:46 PM
Lizzie, i appreciate your approach as you replied to my post. You want links as everyone else is looking for links on the web....Everything i state on here is not from the internet. I talk to the doctors in person and other parents that are also having the same things done. I will tell you this much that i run everything that is done to my child by his pediatrician that he has been seeing pretty much since he was born.

As far as chelex is concerned its not a drug but merely a supplement that helps the body rid itself of heavy metals. It is an oxidant so to speak. As far as these doctors are concerned they have went to medical school and are not violating any laws. I provided you with an article that explains some on the metals. People are wanting a magic pill like a simple med to take......it does not work that way. It takes a lot of dedication to go the distance and get the results. Its not an over night thing. If you truly want to grasp this I suggest you start researching each metal one at a time and exactly what it does to the body. I would start with lead if i were you and then move on to mercury, and then aluminum. Lead is the hardest to get out of the system because of how it is retained in the body. Maybe if you understand these metals you will see how having too much in the body could cause problems. I don't want any false hopes and each case that a doctor sees is a new case because everyone is different. I asked my son's pediatrician if he could chelate and he said he has done it for lead. He said that he would chelate my boy if needed BUT he would prefer consulting someone who specializes in it because chelation can get rid of good minerals and metals in the body.

I see on the news quite often how scientist are trying to figure out the connection with aluminum and Alzheimer's....is that because they are seeing elevated levels of it in the patients?

i took time to look at your links and you got to do better than that. I will state this for the last time. if you test and get a base level of metals in the body and then under go chelation you will see a decrease in the amount of metals in the body. That is not rocket science. I would think that chelation is not going to cure heart disease and the big list of illnesses that was listed in the article. however the neurological system works a little different....if the neurotransmitters are not firing like they should well you will have issues. metals will pretty much cause you to have problems with neurotransmitters. Again i am not trying to say that it is the cause of the illness. i would think the cause would be what ever is causing a person to retain the metals.....that's my thinking there.....

shane_udhf
09-25-15, 06:52 PM
Studies have failed to confirm any role for aluminum causing Alzheimer's.
Silver amalgam fillings in teeth have not been shown to cause Alzheimer's.
http://www.alz.org/alzheimers_disease_myths_about_alzheimers.asp

you are correct but why are they bringing it up in the first place is what intrigues me. why are they trying to make a connection.

Lunacie
09-25-15, 07:06 PM
you are correct but why are they bringing it up in the first place is what intrigues me. why are they trying to make a connection.

People are grasping at anything that seems remotely possible as a cause
in order to look for some prevention or cure. And some either don't hear
about studies that disprove the hypothesis, or refuse to accept them.

dvdnvwls
09-25-15, 10:50 PM
metals will pretty much cause you to have problems with neurotransmitters.

"pretty much"? Show evidence please.

shane_udhf
09-25-15, 11:32 PM
"pretty much"? Show evidence please.

look at the material data sheets on mercury and lead......these are required by law to be present in the work place.

dvdnvwls
09-26-15, 12:12 AM
look at the material data sheets on mercury and lead......these are required by law to be present in the work place.

I mean evidence for the thing you're actually talking about. Everyone knows mercury and lead are toxic; that's beside the point.

Lizzie80
09-26-15, 12:20 AM
Lizzie, i appreciate your approach as you replied to my post. You want links as everyone else is looking for links on the web....Everything i state on here is not from the internet. I talk to the doctors in person and other parents that are also having the same things done. I will tell you this much that i run everything that is done to my child by his pediatrician that he has been seeing pretty much since he was born.

As far as chelex is concerned its not a drug but merely a supplement that helps the body rid itself of heavy metals. It is an oxidant so to speak. As far as these doctors are concerned they have went to medical school and are not violating any laws. I provided you with an article that explains some on the metals. People are wanting a magic pill like a simple med to take......it does not work that way. It takes a lot of dedication to go the distance and get the results. Its not an over night thing. If you truly want to grasp this I suggest you start researching each metal one at a time and exactly what it does to the body. I would start with lead if i were you and then move on to mercury, and then aluminum. Lead is the hardest to get out of the system because of how it is retained in the body. Maybe if you understand these metals you will see how having too much in the body could cause problems. I don't want any false hopes and each case that a doctor sees is a new case because everyone is different. I asked my son's pediatrician if he could chelate and he said he has done it for lead. He said that he would chelate my boy if needed BUT he would prefer consulting someone who specializes in it because chelation can get rid of good minerals and metals in the body.

I see on the news quite often how scientist are trying to figure out the connection with aluminum and Alzheimer's....is that because they are seeing elevated levels of it in the patients?

Your assumptions that I know nothing about your theoretical ideas are patronizing, uninformed, and a blatant (however absurd) attempt to deflect from your own lack of evidence. Sadly, alleged conversations with your own doctors don't count as evidence of anything. My apologies. If anything, this type of treatment has had a long and murky legal and medical journey through the mud...as have the practitioners pushing it in some cases. There's something about children dying from heavy metal treatment that would make me question it. I know, that makes me such a fool.

Precisely where did I state that one should look to take any pill, including your overused cliche of a phrase, "magic pill", and expect anything whatsoever? Or that I want a magic pill personally? Nowhere. Unlike a verbal conversation that one can't prove took place, fortunately people are free to reread any previous post on a forum for themselves. Feel free to reread mine. I said be careful about ALL treatment and to research EVERYTHING. I didn't exclude those magic pills you were referring to from that personal research, by which I presume you mean traditional, prescribed medication. I did not state, and have never stated in over 500 posts on this site, that ANY treatment should be taken without scrutiny. Quite the opposite. I said nothing about any magical turnaround I was looking for. You are the one coming on the forums and thrusting upon people your miraculous stories of healing, so of course we'll want details about that transformation.

If anyone could be accused of pushing a magic pill, it could be yourself. Not that you are doing that, of course. I admittedly didn't join this forum and immediately begin telling people about this "wonderful treatment" that "my doctor supports" and "has done wonders!", so of course I have no right to question someone who has. I could not be seen as perhaps trying (only somewhat subtly) to peddle dubious treatments to anyone. That'd be great, except my conscience wouldn't allow such peddling. Darned that sense of ethics I have!

What kind of advertising and sales approach is Bio-Rad taking these days for their Chelex product, I wonder? Through the doctors? Through direct contact with consumers? Just curious, as anytime one comes on a forum and tells people about a specifically-named supplement, it piques my curiosity about a product. Especially when it is sold by a mulitnational company with some truly fascinating reading material to provide me, courtesy of the Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission.

I did research your claims, which I think is why you got all hot and bothered about my doubts. Funny how a link or two referring people to Quackwatch has that effect on people. There's just something about that site that sticks in a certain craw. I have no idea why. A critical analyst looks for evidence of efficacy. I'll be the first one shouting it from the rooftops when - sorry, IF - your treatment of choice gets some proof behind it. You have my promise on that.

To prove to you my dedication in research, here's some more links. Sorry, I've got no verbal conversation recorded with a doctor or other people I've conversed with in person who were telling me about a treatment that works well and is definitely legal. Because of course we can all be sure that our doctors are always following the law...well, just because we KNOW they are! I'll try my best to make up for that with the quality of my links though, I assure you. I apologize that decades of scientific, legal and historical records are the only things I have to show...but then, silly me. I'd critically analyze even what a doctor would tell me before giving it to my child, or taking it myself. I know, I'm a horrible person for needing more than your word that heavy metals affect the neurotransmitters and can be treated with supplements. I also like to check on companies selling the stuff, because I hate checking out the truth just that much. I hope you can forgive me.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1592402/

http://www.neurodiversity.com/chelation.html

http://www.autism-watch.org/about/bio2.shtml

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/25/science/experts-reject-some-therapies.html

http:// www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/andrew-wakefield-the-panel-is-satisfied-that-your-conduct-was-irresponsible-and-dishonest/

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html

http://constantinecannon.com/whistleblower/bio-rad-pays-big-international-bribery-scheme/#

http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370543347364


(http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/detox_overview.html)

Greyhound1
09-26-15, 01:10 AM
"pretty much"? Show evidence please.
I am not saying I am for chelation but there is plenty of evidence that toxic levels of metals affect neurotransmitters.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263637/pdf/JT2012-132671.pdf
2.5.Neurotransmitters. Release of neurotransmitters is modulated by multiple mechanisms. How metals interfere with some of these pathways has been described above. The following paragraph focuses how metals modulate neurotransmitter levels, their release, and uptake in the presynaptic button.
2.5.1. Effect on Neurotransmitter Metabolism. Treatment of PC-12 dopaminergic neuronal cells with 10μg/mL copper nanoparticles ( 90 nm) caused a decrease in dopamine and its metabolites 3.4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC) and homovanillic acid (HVA). This indicates that the decrease in dopamine may be attributed to a decrease in production and an increase in the breakdown of dopamine [105].

dvdnvwls
09-26-15, 01:29 AM
I am not saying I am for chelation but there is plenty of evidence that toxic levels of metals affect neurotransmitters.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263637/pdf/JT2012-132671.pdf

Toxic levels. Yes, without a doubt, toxic levels of heavy metals would affect neurotransmitters. If someone's child actually had a real case of lead poisoning (for example, from eating significant quantities of very very old paint) or mercury poisoning, I wouldn't be questioning any of this. But we're not talking about cases of poisoning involving heavy metals, we're talking about ordinary healthy non-poisoned children being subjected to guinea-pig experiments.

namazu
09-26-15, 01:31 AM
Point of information for clarification:

Shane, are you talking about...

Xymogen's product called CheleX, which is marketed as a dietary supplement containing ingredients "such as EDTA, Himalayan shilajit extract (50% fulvic acid), chlorella, cilantro, and antioxidant-stimulating nutrients",

or

Bio-Rad's Chelex 100, whose main ingredient is "polystyrene-divinylbenzene iminodiacetate", which is used as a chelating agent in research / industrial chemistry?

(I'm frankly surprised that there hasn't been a trademark infringement lawsuit involving these two products!)

Bio-Rad's Chelex 100 cannot legally be sold in the U.S. as a dietary supplement, but I'm guessing Shane is talking about the Xymogen product.

The Xymogen product is legally allowed to be sold as a dietary supplement, but the company cannot legally make claims about their product treating any diseases or disorders, and they also cannot market it specifically as a chelation agent.

Several "neutraceutical" / supplement companies were censured by the US FDA a few years ago for marketing dietary supplements as chelating agents. Here's a Q&A page from the FDA (http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/BuyingUsingMedicineSafely/MedicationHealthFraud/ucm229313.htm)about why they took action against these companies and why they feel products sold over-the-counter as "chelation" agents may be dangerous (because actual chelation drugs do indeed have the potential for very serious side effects), misleading, or both.

The FDA did not specifically mention the Xymogen product; I don't know if it even existed at that time, nor if this company has made the types of claims that got the others into trouble. However, given the name "CheleX", they clearly intend to suggest its use as a chelating agent, even if they're careful not to come right out and say so.

I agree with dvdnvwls that children with demonstrable lead poisoning or other heavy metal poisoning may be helped by (approved) treatments, but that the evidence for its benefit (especially considering its risks) in children without clear evidence of heavy metal poisoning is not convincing.

shane_udhf
09-26-15, 07:58 AM
Point of information for clarification:

Shane, are you talking about...

Xymogen's product called CheleX, which is marketed as a dietary supplement containing ingredients "such as EDTA, Himalayan shilajit extract (50% fulvic acid), chlorella, cilantro, and antioxidant-stimulating nutrients",

or

Bio-Rad's Chelex 100, whose main ingredient is "polystyrene-divinylbenzene iminodiacetate", which is used as a chelating agent in research / industrial chemistry?

(I'm frankly surprised that there hasn't been a trademark infringement lawsuit involving these two products!)

Bio-Rad's Chelex 100 cannot legally be sold in the U.S. as a dietary supplement, but I'm guessing Shane is talking about the Xymogen product.

The Xymogen product is legally allowed to be sold as a dietary supplement, but the company cannot legally make claims about their product treating any diseases or disorders, and they also cannot market it specifically as a chelation agent.

Several "neutraceutical" / supplement companies were censured by the US FDA a few years ago for marketing dietary supplements as chelating agents. Here's a Q&A page from the FDA (http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/BuyingUsingMedicineSafely/MedicationHealthFraud/ucm229313.htm)about why they took action against these companies and why they feel products sold over-the-counter as "chelation" agents may be dangerous (because actual chelation drugs do indeed have the potential for very serious side effects), misleading, or both.

The FDA did not specifically mention the Xymogen product; I don't know if it even existed at that time, nor if this company has made the types of claims that got the others into trouble. However, given the name "CheleX", they clearly intend to suggest its use as a chelating agent, even if they're careful not to come right out and say so.

I agree with dvdnvwls that children with demonstrable lead poisoning or other heavy metal poisoning may be helped by (approved) treatments, but that the evidence for its benefit (especially considering its risks) in children without clear evidence of heavy metal poisoning is not convincing.

yes i agree with you 100% chelation does what it is designed to do and that is to remove stuff. it does not know what it is removing therefore it can be dangerous if not used by someone who respects it for what it is. Just like any other treatments in medical treatments their are risk and there are doctors who push the limits and find themselves in trouble at the expense of their patients.

shane_udhf
09-26-15, 08:20 AM
Your assumptions that I know nothing about your theoretical ideas are patronizing, uninformed, and a blatant (however absurd) attempt to deflect from your own lack of evidence. Sadly, alleged conversations with your own doctors don't count as evidence of anything. My apologies. If anything, this type of treatment has had a long and murky legal and medical journey through the mud...as have the practitioners pushing it in some cases. There's something about children dying from heavy metal treatment that would make me question it. I know, that makes me such a fool.

Precisely where did I state that one should look to take any pill, including your overused cliche of a phrase, "magic pill", and expect anything whatsoever? Or that I want a magic pill personally? Nowhere. Unlike a verbal conversation that one can't prove took place, fortunately people are free to reread any previous post on a forum for themselves. Feel free to reread mine. I said be careful about ALL treatment and to research EVERYTHING. I didn't exclude those magic pills you were referring to from that personal research, by which I presume you mean traditional, prescribed medication. I did not state, and have never stated in over 500 posts on this site, that ANY treatment should be taken without scrutiny. Quite the opposite. I said nothing about any magical turnaround I was looking for. You are the one coming on the forums and thrusting upon people your miraculous stories of healing, so of course we'll want details about that transformation.

If anyone could be accused of pushing a magic pill, it could be yourself. Not that you are doing that, of course. I admittedly didn't join this forum and immediately begin telling people about this "wonderful treatment" that "my doctor supports" and "has done wonders!", so of course I have no right to question someone who has. I could not be seen as perhaps trying (only somewhat subtly) to peddle dubious treatments to anyone. That'd be great, except my conscience wouldn't allow such peddling. Darned that sense of ethics I have!

What kind of advertising and sales approach is Bio-Rad taking these days for their Chelex product, I wonder? Through the doctors? Through direct contact with consumers? Just curious, as anytime one comes on a forum and tells people about a specifically-named supplement, it piques my curiosity about a product. Especially when it is sold by a mulitnational company with some truly fascinating reading material to provide me, courtesy of the Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission.

I did research your claims, which I think is why you got all hot and bothered about my doubts. Funny how a link or two referring people to Quackwatch has that effect on people. There's just something about that site that sticks in a certain craw. I have no idea why. A critical analyst looks for evidence of efficacy. I'll be the first one shouting it from the rooftops when - sorry, IF - your treatment of choice gets some proof behind it. You have my promise on that.

To prove to you my dedication in research, here's some more links. Sorry, I've got no verbal conversation recorded with a doctor or other people I've conversed with in person who were telling me about a treatment that works well and is definitely legal. Because of course we can all be sure that our doctors are always following the law...well, just because we KNOW they are! I'll try my best to make up for that with the quality of my links though, I assure you. I apologize that decades of scientific, legal and historical records are the only things I have to show...but then, silly me. I'd critically analyze even what a doctor would tell me before giving it to my child, or taking it myself. I know, I'm a horrible person for needing more than your word that heavy metals affect the neurotransmitters and can be treated with supplements. I also like to check on companies selling the stuff, because I hate checking out the truth just that much. I hope you can forgive me.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1592402/

http://www.neurodiversity.com/chelation.html

http://www.autism-watch.org/about/bio2.shtml

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/25/science/experts-reject-some-therapies.html

http:// www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/andrew-wakefield-the-panel-is-satisfied-that-your-conduct-was-irresponsible-and-dishonest/

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html

http://constantinecannon.com/whistleblower/bio-rad-pays-big-international-bribery-scheme/#

http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370543347364


(http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/detox_overview.html)

Lizzie, I am sorry you felt i was inferring you did not know stuff but that's not what i was inferring. i am not hot and bothered by you either.

the "the magic pill" is just a reference of how our culture is today and how it is so fast never slows down and wants everything now.......

i did not feel that you were mocking, attaching, or being negative in your first post and that is why i said i appreciate your approach.

Lunacie
09-26-15, 11:01 AM
Lizzie, I am sorry you felt i was inferring you did not know stuff but that's not what i was inferring. i am not hot and bothered by you either.

the "the magic pill" is just a reference of how our culture is today and how it is so fast never slows down and wants everything now.......

i did not feel that you were mocking, attaching, or being negative in your first post and that is why i said i appreciate your approach.

Lizzie inferred your meaning.
You seemed to be implying that she didn't know beans about the topic.

If you truly want to grasp this I suggest you start researching each metal one at a time and exactly what it does to the body. I would start with lead if i were you and then move on to mercury, and then aluminum. Lead is the hardest to get out of the system because of how it is retained in the body. Maybe if you understand these metals you will see how having too much in the body could cause problems.

You probably didn't mean to imply that she was ignorant,
but the wording could lead one to think you did.

Luvmybully
09-26-15, 11:40 AM
What disturbs me about this approach, and is a huge red waving flag, is IF some Drs came across compelling evidence of a new approach to adhd "treatment", WHY, after 10+ years, has this NOT been thoroughly researched? Widely discussed? Why no double blind studies?

No NOTHING, just a few Drs verbal claims? Oh, and a product or 2 on the market?

Nothing verifiable?

Why?

If this is truly an actual, physically evident issue, you would think that the medical community would be all over reasearching it.

I am ALL FOR new medical breakthroughs and an ever evolving approach to medicine. If these Drs actually do have something here, I hope they DO some actual, REAL, research and studies .

But until they do, it just does not seem credible.

dvdnvwls
09-26-15, 06:50 PM
yes i agree with you 100% chelation does what it is designed to do and that is to remove stuff. it does not know what it is removing therefore it can be dangerous if not used by someone who respects it for what it is. Just like any other treatments in medical treatments their are risk and there are doctors who push the limits and find themselves in trouble at the expense of their patients.

It is not about "respecting (chelation) for what it is". The issue is that in your case and in the case of the people who recommended it to you, chelation is an irrelevant treatment. What you're doing is no different from giving a disease-specific drug to a person who doesn't have that disease.

The irresponsible doctors (and their deceived or irresponsible patients) who you're in contact with are doing the same thing as if I gave hookworm treatments or thyroid hormones to my child, not actually suspecting those problems but just because he was itchy.

Taking things out of the body that do belong there, is no different from putting things into the body that don't belong there.

sarahsweets
09-27-15, 05:22 AM
yes i agree with you 100% chelation does what it is designed to do and that is to remove stuff. it does not know what it is removing therefore it can be dangerous if not used by someone who respects it for what it is. Just like any other treatments in medical treatments their are risk and there are doctors who push the limits and find themselves in trouble at the expense of their patients.
Even though I dont agree with this at all, saying that something is dangerous if used by someone who doesnt respect it is plain silly. Respecting something doesnt make it less dangerous, and respecting something doesnt mean that you can still go ahead with this dangerous treatment without any concern. There have been plenty of doctors that respected treatments they have used on their patients and still caused harm.

Unmanagable
09-27-15, 10:32 AM
I've not researched any of this stuff yet, as I haven't had a need or been directly affected by it, but feel it's also important to remember and mention that many things that have been approved and highly endorsed by the alphabet agencies like the FDA and such have also killed people. But not until AFTER they allowed it to be deemed "safe" and be put on the market.

It seems to be six of one and a half-dozen of the other, in my mind. Research doesn't always equal effectiveness, nor does it guarantee you're more likely to live through it. It just shows how many already did, mainly based on who had the funds to document the testing they did. There again, it seems to drastically limit who can make it into the accepted limelight of effectiveness.

That whole concept seems to get lost in these conversations. Maybe it's just my perception, coming from someone who often and successfully utilizes alternative methods for my overall wellness, but these discussions always feel way out of balance in that respect, in my world.

Lunacie
09-27-15, 10:55 AM
I've not researched any of this stuff yet, as I haven't had a need or been directly affected by it, but feel it's also important to remember and mention that many things that have been approved and highly endorsed by the alphabet agencies like the FDA and such have also killed people. But not until AFTER they allowed it to be deemed "safe" and be put on the market.

It seems to be six of one and a half-dozen of the other, in my mind. Research doesn't always equal effectiveness, nor does it guarantee you're more likely to live through it. It just shows how many already did, mainly based on who had the funds to document the testing they did. There again, it seems to drastically limit who can make it into the accepted limelight of effectiveness.

That whole concept seems to get lost in these conversations. Maybe it's just my perception, coming from someone who often and successfully utilizes alternative methods for my overall wellness, but these discussions always feel way out of balance in that respect, in my world.

I tend to be cautious of anything new, whether it's been approved or not.
But I would point out that the meds currently used to treat ADHD have been
in use for over 50 years and have a good track record of effectiveness with
minimal side effects. Seems like a good idea to try what's been shown to
work first, before looking into these untested therapies in my opinion.

Unmanagable
09-27-15, 11:12 AM
I tend to be cautious of anything new, whether it's been approved or not.
But I would point out that the meds currently used to treat ADHD have been
in use for over 50 years and have a good track record of effectiveness with
minimal side effects. Seems like a good idea to try what's been shown to
work first, before looking into these untested therapies in my opinion.

Of course it seems like a good idea. But just because everyone doesn't follow the same path doesn't mean all the other paths are automatically not cool for every other individual.

Lunacie
09-27-15, 11:20 AM
Of course it seems like a good idea. But just because everyone doesn't follow the same path doesn't mean all the other paths are automatically not cool for every other individual.

I didn't say that other paths are "not cool." I said was cautious of new and
untested therapies. Seems like a good idea to be cautious of things that haven't
been well tested yet.

dvdnvwls
09-27-15, 04:19 PM
Of course it seems like a good idea. But just because everyone doesn't follow the same path doesn't mean all the other paths are automatically not cool for every other individual.

Sometimes you're right. However, in this case, "path" turns out to be merely a cutesy way of dressing up a hoax. A quack hoax is not a path, even if someone calls it one.

Unmanagable
09-27-15, 05:01 PM
It remains a path, in my opinion. A path you learn not to go down again if and when you truly discover it is a hoax.

dvdnvwls
09-27-15, 07:14 PM
It remains a path, in my opinion. A path you learn not to go down again if and when you truly discover it is a hoax.

Lending a quack treatment the dignity of calling it a "path" is IMO a disservice to all. The word "path" carries implications of it being a legitimate "life choice", or of being one of several good ways of reaching a desired destination.

What the OP has described is a "path" in the same way that a sewage pond is a "river" - i.e. not at all, or at best giving a false impression.

Unmanagable
09-27-15, 07:32 PM
The "IMO" part is the most important part of what you just said. To each their own, basically. Whether we like it, or the words they choose, or not.

dvdnvwls
09-27-15, 07:46 PM
I guess "to each their own" includes that when I see someone launching their boat in the sewage pond, I'm going to call out "That's the sewage pond! The river is that way!". It's part of my path, you could say. :)

Or... a bit of a different slant...

Despite the value of postmodern thinking, true and false do exist independently of opinion.

Or, to use a quotation often found in a completely different context...

"Truth is not a democracy."

Unmanagable
09-27-15, 08:02 PM
Okay......however you wish to see it, you're right. We are all right in our own minds. I'm going to stop derailing from the original topic of the thread now.

shane_udhf
09-27-15, 10:12 PM
I've not researched any of this stuff yet, as I haven't had a need or been directly affected by it, but feel it's also important to remember and mention that many things that have been approved and highly endorsed by the alphabet agencies like the FDA and such have also killed people. But not until AFTER they allowed it to be deemed "safe" and be put on the market.

It seems to be six of one and a half-dozen of the other, in my mind. Research doesn't always equal effectiveness, nor does it guarantee you're more likely to live through it. It just shows how many already did, mainly based on who had the funds to document the testing they did. There again, it seems to drastically limit who can make it into the accepted limelight of effectiveness.

That whole concept seems to get lost in these conversations. Maybe it's just my perception, coming from someone who often and successfully utilizes alternative methods for my overall wellness, but these discussions always feel way out of balance in that respect, in my world.

That is my take on it for the most part........they throw all these links and crap against this and that........and don't even know what is really in it. they read the buzz words.... this thread started about the MTHFR gene mutation and look where we are no lol......they more worried about lynch making a buck than the actual science in his theories or who ever he copied them from......

shane_udhf
09-27-15, 11:13 PM
Looks like there is something to what ole lynchy was saying........http://omim.org/entry/607093 will say this is not trustworthy I am sure of it! after reading all these lynch just took a shortcut and gave his own little synopsis and figured out how to make money.....my son has the C677T by the way....but that's not real either its a quack thing to........I have emailed a researcher from MAYO about this little issue to see if he knows anything about it....just maybe he will reply back.

shane_udhf
09-28-15, 12:13 AM
I may as well share another little story......the day that I discovered ole ben lynch I just put that mthfr into browser to see what my son had and his name popped up.....I watched his little video on you tube, and he started talking about high levels of folic acid.....I'm in my office by the way.......I didn't think anyone would be listening in but turns out my coworker at another desk picked up the high folic acid part.

Let me step back a little now..... he and his wife have been trying to have a baby for a while and every time his wife got pregnant she would miscarry. This happened like 3 times and they decided to go to Houston to seek a specialist. The specialist checked them out physically to make sure they could have a baby and said every thing looked good. They did the AI fertilization to start with and got the same results.

The doctor told them that there is no reason they should not be successful at carrying to term, so he told them he was going to order some genetic testing to see if he could find anything. well he did find a couple of things and one thing is the wife and husband both had the MTHFR gene and the husband had a homozygous. His blood come back with high levels of homocysteine. The specialist told him he needed to take folic acid so he did. He made him an appointment with his family doctor and he put him on some. Well he went back for his check up 4 months later his folic acid was high and the homocysteine was not much better.

Anyway the specialist took her eggs and his sperm and fertilized them. They found some that were deformed and damaged so they picked some healthy ones and implanted one and froze the rest. She miscarried at just short of 9 weeks I think. Me and her husband talked about it and he said they were going to try one more time and that was it. His wife had been working trying to take her mind off of the fear of having a miscarriage and was getting stressed so she quit work (CPA) right in the middle of tax season! They are pregnant with a little girl that will be born after the first of the year!!!! Well I know someone is going to ask what the point is.......MTHFR showed up and since his folic acid levels rose and no change in homocysteine he is taking the same stuff my boy is. He is going to see what his levels do on this (methyl protect) thanks to ole ben. oh and it is not the brand he sells by the way. If someone actually reads the case studies they will understand the significance.

sarahsweets
09-28-15, 04:33 AM
I scanned the link you provided but I must be missing something. Where does it say that the folic acid thing affects adhd?

shane_udhf
09-28-15, 08:16 AM
I scanned the link you provided but I must be missing something. Where does it say that the folic acid thing affects adhd?

That is a theory that someone has......it is not proven...but what i do know is this gene mutation has been showing its ugly little face in my family. i am curious now if my mother has it because she had thyroid cancer along with carcinoma for which she has been fighting for several years now. The only one tested so far has been my son. Some of the case studies make the plausible statement about it affecting the nervous system among other process of the body. See i am just following the bread crumbs trying to make sense of everything.......my son has the c677t mutation, elevated thyroid antibody, adhd, maybe this means nothing but i will not stop digging until i have a good understanding and that includes listening to some of the theories and examining them for what they are worth. Thyroid cancer and carcinoma was specifically mentioned in some of the case studies.

I am starting to understand why the doctor may have put my son on the methyl protect...kind of like using it as a vaccine....someone follow and tell me why i made that statement. i want to see who is really reading the case files and who is just trying to bully folks around.

shane_udhf
09-28-15, 09:58 PM
That is a theory that someone has......it is not proven...but what i do know is this gene mutation has been showing its ugly little face in my family. i am curious now if my mother has it because she had thyroid cancer along with carcinoma for which she has been fighting for several years now. The only one tested so far has been my son. Some of the case studies make the plausible statement about it affecting the nervous system among other process of the body. See i am just following the bread crumbs trying to make sense of everything.......my son has the c677t mutation, elevated thyroid antibody, adhd, maybe this means nothing but i will not stop digging until i have a good understanding and that includes listening to some of the theories and examining them for what they are worth. Thyroid cancer and carcinoma was specifically mentioned in some of the case studies.

I am starting to understand why the doctor may have put my son on the methyl protect...kind of like using it as a vaccine....someone follow and tell me why i made that statement. i want to see who is really reading the case files and who is just trying to bully folks around.

well they are not saying directly that it does....they moreless just say that it has caused neurological issues for the simple fact that the methylation process is far reaching into the bodies processes. it is like a cascade effect is what the effect would be. it's complicated due to the fact that we get folate through things that we eat( leafy greens) which circumvents the need for folic acid. Folic acid is a synthetic form that must be broken down where as the folate is in a more usable state. If the MTHFR gene is broke or not working well you don't have the enzyme to break down folic acid is basically how I understand it. it gets deep and to truly appreciate it you need to look at some of the methylation cycle diagrams. it is much easier to understand and see what effects what. Generally speaking a person with a good healthy diet would not have much of a problem with the MTHFR gene mutation as long as they were getting the folate in there diet instead of folic acid. the homozygous mutation on the C677TT is said to be the bad one where the problem would be detected by a regular doctor because of high homocystein in the blood. My son has the hetero form which is C677T which is not as bad. I had my yearly physical the other day and I told my internal medicine doctor that I wanted the test for the MTHFR gene mutation and he looked at me like I was crazy until I gave him the paper on it and he said that he picks that up only if you have high homocystein which I don't, but I still could have the mutation because I have a healthy diet or I am a hetero C677T. The standard treatment is to prescribe folic acid.....BUT what Ben Lynch is saying is that folic acid will not work as good for you or if at all in the case of a homozygous mutation. It has a simple fix either eat a lot of leafy greens or take a methyl folate supplement in order to insure that the methylation process is carried out. That is why my son's doctor said for him to take methyl protect to cover all bases. The methylation process directly effects the neurotransmitters by the way which is said to be a big issue in adhd. All this is off the top of my head from reading this stuff so don't hang me if I made a mistake......

Polymorphed
10-30-15, 05:56 AM
I don't know who Ben Lynch is, but I think I understand the issue and can offer another explanation.

The science of genetics and the research that has been undertaken has made advancements over the past couple of decades. We understand a lot more about DNA and have access to always increasing datasets of gene profiles for investigating links that have not otherwise been previously discovered.

Here is a link (just the first one I got from a Google) that gives a brief outline of the role Methylation can have in gene expression.

http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/the-role-of-methylation-in-gene-expression-1070

The actual Methylation cycle that has been referred to is in fact based on science and is common knowledge among neuroscientists.

Each step within this cycle relies upon nutrients which are then metabolised into the next appropriate chemical. Nueroscience and mental health are mostly concerned with the monamines.

Here's a wiki image demonstrating how all these particular neurotransmitters are interconnected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_neurotransmitter#/media/File:Monoamine_receptor_tree.svg

When we have certain genetic mutations that result in polymorphisms afecting these neurotransmitters, we can end up with all kinds of problems.

It is widely accepted in the neuroscience world that ADHD has the following polymorphisms in common:
Dopamine - Receptors: D4 (DRD4) and D5 (DRD5), Transporter: (VNTR PM of DAT1).

These are examples of gene expressions and how they under pin this whole topic.

There is research indicating that there may also be enough statistical evidence to suggest a connection between the Choline Transporter gene SLC5A7 in some types of ADHD.

I've taken a personal interest in the SLC5A7 polymorphism because the Cholinergic pathways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcholine) that directly affect the parasympathetic nervous system offer an explanation for the chronic over-activation of the sympathetic nervous system that is common in the anxious inattentive subtype. I think Choline pathways and their connection to ADHD will reveal more information leading to more comprehensive drugs that don't just target the Dopamine and Norepinephrine. It is not a simple process to research at a scientific level though.

The controversy enters all this when you work backwards from the nuerotransmitter level; as you pass through each stage of metabolisation you work your way through nutrients and this can be done right down to basic vitamins and minerals that are, for the most part, sourced in our diet.

Dietetics and its association with forms of medicine that aren't generally accepted as "scientifically based" is known by most, but the reality is that nutrition is indeed a science. We don't all have the time or patience to read complicated text books just so we can prove to ourselves that every opinion we have is DEFINITELY based on fact. So it can be hard to know what is science and what is snake oil. This leads to controversy of course. Arguments arise between people of different knowledge levels. Facts distort. Assumptions are distributed. Etc.

Also, I have noticed that there is a bit of an insurgence of nueroscience alternative medicine type companies happening at the moment. The methylation pathways based on real science are being displayed, broken down and explained and their own method of using this information to heal you is advertised religiously. The catch is you have to pay hundreds/thousands to have all the tests done in order to determine which areas are of concern and how they can be nutritionally supplemented back into good health.

This kind of business approach lends itself to criticism which can harm the credibility not only of the company but the underlying science.

Also there is the moral and ethical issue of a private company having your genetic code on a database. Then there was the 23andme thing, which has been widely criticised, adding further discrediting association to the topic of genetics.

I don't know if these companies can use these tests to accurately determine which nutrients you need in order to balance all your nuerosystems, but I understand enough about science to suggest that they may actually be on the right track. We* all just need to remain open minded and use cynicism as a tool ->in a constructive and pragmatic manner (*we as in human beings).

The trouble with genetics is there is just so much data there, the research takes time and the scientists with the ability to undertake this research are limited. The processes involved cost a lot of money and money is also limited.

I hope I've been as unbiased as possible (apart from where I stated it was personal :P). :)

CrazyLazyGal
12-10-15, 12:02 AM
I learned that I have the MTHFR mutation. My psychiatrist put me on Deplin, which is a special type of folic acid, and it's really helped my depression.

By the way, I can't help but read MTHFR as m*th**f****r :giggle:

mctavish23
12-10-15, 02:07 PM
shane,

It's definitely true that "one size doesn't fit all," in trying to understand the complications in-

-volved with the diagnosis and treatment of ADHD. The research as a whole supports the

theory of ADHD being "largely genetic" in nature. However, as someone who's made a career

out of reading the peer reviewed research on this (and other related) concerns, I have to

say that I've never come across this specific notion. One of the great things about the

Forum, is that now I've got something to look into. The bottom line is that there are so

many comorbid (simultaneously co-existing or secondary, co-occurring) conditions, that,

with the exception of the research on stimulants, it's virtually impossibe to determine

what's responsible for what benefits or gains. When you factor in the individual's own unique

body chemistry, especially as relates to adverse reactions, etc., it becomes even murkier.

I tended to look at the "big picture," in terms of treating the "whole" problem when it came

to ADHD, which is why I always recommended an Occupational Therapy (PT) evaluation for

possible Sensory issues, as well.

Good Luck and I wish you and all your family the very best.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)