View Full Version : Mindset. fixed vs growth and ADHD.


Drogheda
09-14-15, 04:59 PM
time for me to get out of my own fixed mindset on this.

"Your attitude ... affects how much effort you exert and what you do when setbacks strike, said Ari Tuckman, PsyD, a clinical psychologist and author of Understand Your Brain, Get More Done: The ADHD Executive Functions Workbook. A positive mindset keeps setbacks in perspective this is one situation and one experience, he said.

one study of growth mindset/positive thinking (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0361476X12000057)

for a better understanding of the information, the plotpoints (http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0361476X12000057-gr1.jpg)

the researches presented shows that those that didn't feel held back and actually tried to learn how to do things in their way were just as effective as those without ADHD. ya, this is only one report and there needs to be more concrete research.

however those with dyslexia, Autism, ADHD and every other kind of disability have shown that they can learn how to break the mold they have of themselves in their head and achieve great things, whether that be just thinking of themselves in a better light or go on to academic success. in her book "Mindset" Carol Dweck offers many many examples and further research into how our mindset's box us in to how we think things are and not how they really are and gives examples on the entire spectrum (NT and no, lots of non NT's) about how it is precisely how we think of something that is the cause of us not succeeding in the area's that we want to, not only that, but having a fixed negative mindset reverses any and all positive change in our life. the worst blunders in the world have been done by those with a fixed mind.

in her examples she shows studies of children and adults who are given a problem. regardless of in they got the problem correct they would say to the children "you did good, you are really smart" or "you did good, you worked hard". the children (and adults who actually became to think this way) who thought they were smart *knew* they were smart, so they blocked all other ways of progress. they never wanted to engage in any hard problems again (for students, they simply refuse to do homework) because it is beneath them. they ended up falling, their grades dropped and they couldn't handle the stress so they lied to hide it... the studies show that enron suffered it's fate at the hands of fixed mindset execs.

those with the growth continued to understand and grow.

this is what a fixed mindset does, it places you were you think you are. the children were smart and probably could of done calculus if they worked at it, but they didn't, their mindset put a block in their head that stopped all progress regardless. the children could only see what they permitted themselves to see, it's a lock on your brain. prominent students drop out because they think they can't do the work when those with a growth mindset zoom past them.

one of her best studies was around muhammad ali. he was not built like a fighter, he didn't train like a *normal* fighter, he didn't duck punches like a normal fighter... he was not the NT fighter. so he made up for it, he psyched out his opponents, he learned everything he could about the people he fought. he was laughed at, everyone thought he was an idiot, at the time he was viewed as a fraud and possibly a pshychopath that wasn't a good fighter. Joe Frazier thought that, his epic fight only sold half seats. but we all know the story. ali didn't have what others had, but he compensated, he learned, he used psychological warfare to up his game, to compete and after that he kept learning to use what he had to do what he did, even after he fell to parcensons he is still a prominent figure fighting the good fight, he never fell into a fixed mind even WHEN his mind is slipping.

the case that ADHD is this or that has merrit, but I don't think what I've said in the past has been understood. ok, ADHD is a thing, but a general question, do you think your mindset on what ADHD is keeping you back from learning how to manage it? like the scientific article said, those with ADHD with the growth mindset started acting on par with students with taught the growth mindset. you can check out that everything that is a negative with ADHD dropped alarmingly with students who started to believe and get out of the negative mind.

my therapist has a saying (and I'm sure many do) knowledge is power. knowing this has been one of the greatest tools in my shed, I can't begin to describe how much this has helped me (all of it, even back when it was just belief). the question is, is it a lie to say that I can learn to manage ADHD and become just as good if not BETTER than other people, to learn how to live, to fill my life with things I love and I will learn how to do that and am? is that a lie? am I lying to myself? are you lying to you?

no, no one is. lying is a personal thing. the saying of "the person who thinks they can and the one that thinks they can't are both right" springs from this. neither is lying, they just believe differently.

one last thing, then I got homework. a lot of the citations in this book and other books like this and research is from people, the same ones they did research they interviewed. there are a lot that owe what they are and who they have become and how happy they are because they failed the first time, utterly, flat on their face. many say how if they succeeded they would not have learned how to learn. people with deslexia, ADHD, deemed retarded... they didn't give up, they learned from a mistake, learned how to alter behavior.... the struggle with a dyslexic to read. the neurology of learning is all about the struggle. I know of a lot of famous people who are dyslexic or have ADHD and are really famous and have done a ton of good for the world, top two are dyslexic and have ADHD (well maybee not top 2 but they are up there, richard branson and bill gates). ya, they had to struggle... ok.

you see, there comes a point when you enjoy the struggle if you want to, it's that tricky belief thing, if you say it is then it is.

have a good day everyone, and please be fantastic.

dvdnvwls
09-14-15, 09:11 PM
"Mindset" is presented and applied as an issue of moral character and/or willpower. This is triply wrong: its main error is its misattribution of the results of heritable stable physiological traits to supposed immoral choices (laziness, defeatism); it does a disservice to people with any disorder (or for that matter people without any) by misdirecting their time and energy into fruitless and discouraging pursuit of illusory moral betterment; and it does another disservice to society by stigmatizing and moralizing situations and conditions that are in fact ethically and morally neutral.

There's another aspect to the issue that I want to talk about but my post was taking too long to write so I'll have to save it for later.

dvdnvwls
09-14-15, 10:21 PM
OK. When you take the mindset explanations and you read carefully, you get exactly one valuable piece of information out of the whole lot: When you actually can do something, don't say that you can't.

Drogheda
09-15-15, 12:07 AM
maybee this can help, brain scans of someone who is closed minded and open minded (http://positivepsychologynews.com/news/nicholas-hall/20070906383)

this information is being used by neuroscienctest and neurobiologist, it is also a huge business pshychology incite. right now, this information is being used.

reading the books and research has been helpful to me.

ADaptHD
09-15-15, 02:32 AM
one study of growth mindset/positive thinking (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0361476X12000057)

for a better understanding of the information, the plotpoints (http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0361476X12000057-gr1.jpg)

the researches presented shows that those that didn't feel held back and actually tried to learn how to do things in their way were just as effective as those without ADHD. ya, this is only one report and there needs to be more concrete research.

That's not actually what that study says. The study says that people with ADHD benefit as much as people without ADHD from setting personal goals even though they still have worse outcomes on average:

This has led researchers to distinguish between differences of degree (mean-level differences) and differences of kind (differences in relationships between factors) (Martin & Hau, 2010 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0361476X12000057#b0290)). It appears the present study has indicated this pattern of results also, with students with ADHD scoring lower than non-ADHD students on outcome measures, but also that the relationship between PB goals and outcomes reflect a similar pattern for the two groups.So the study doesn't in any way suggest that a change in mindset can make the impairments associated with ADHD magically disappear.

Having said that, I actually agree with you that it's good to have a growth-oriented mindset and to set personal goals. (I mean, who wouldn't?) But it's important to distinguish between (1) having a growth-oriented mindset while also accepting that your ADHD symptoms are something that you'll be dealing with for the rest of the life and (2) thinking you can somehow stop having ADHD by changing your attitude.

I think the first is something we should all strive for -- setting goals, not giving up, and figuring out how to best organize our lives given our diagnosis.

But the second is counterproductive. Those of us who went through years of telling ourselves we just needed to "try harder" before getting diagnosed know that a can-do attitude isn't going to make ADHD symptoms go away.

Maybe it's paradoxical, but I find that my mindset is actually much healthier and more conducive to personal growth since accepting my ADHD diagnosis.

Smashachu
09-15-15, 04:24 AM
maybee this can help, brain scans of someone who is closed minded and open minded (http://positivepsychologynews.com/news/nicholas-hall/20070906383)

this information is being used by neuroscienctest and neurobiologist, it is also a huge business pshychology incite. right now, this information is being used.

reading the books and research has been helpful to me.



I've read into brain imaging scans in the field of psychiatry. I definitely think you can "Train" your brain. However there are limitations predisposed to our condition that "Limits" our ability in those areas. I use the term limit because i believe you can better those symptoms through Psycho Therapy.

I came across a wonderful little article awhile back talking about spect imaging and mental disorders, one in particular about ADD/ADHD was interesting.

http://addconsults.com/articles/adhd-how-brain-spect-imaging-can-help/


I'm not going to lie, i didn't read most of Op's post just because it didn't grasp my attention, but i can understand the jist of it. It's always good to have a optimistic outlook on things, however i can tell you from experience those boundary's dont get any easier from not knowing or optimistic view points.

I had no idea i had ADHd as a kid and you know what happened when everyone in my school including the teachers and faculty told me i was lazy? I dropped out.:thankyou: Public Education of America.

Drogheda
09-15-15, 06:41 AM
That's not actually what that study says. The study says that people with ADHD benefit as much as people without ADHD from setting personal goals even though they still have worse outcomes on average:

So the study doesn't in any way suggest that a change in mindset can make the impairments associated with ADHD magically disappear.

Having said that, I actually agree with you that it's good to have a growth-oriented mindset and to set personal goals. (I mean, who wouldn't?) But it's important to distinguish between (1) having a growth-oriented mindset while also accepting that your ADHD symptoms are something that you'll be dealing with for the rest of the life and (2) thinking you can somehow stop having ADHD by changing your attitude.

I think the first is something we should all strive for -- setting goals, not giving up, and figuring out how to best organize our lives given our diagnosis.

But the second is counterproductive. Those of us who went through years of telling ourselves we just needed to "try harder" before getting diagnosed know that a can-do attitude isn't going to make ADHD symptoms go away.

Maybe it's paradoxical, but I find that my mindset is actually much healthier and more conducive to personal growth since accepting my ADHD diagnosis.

the PG is another way of saying growth mindset, and you hit it on the head, people with ADHD benefit just as much. the worse outcomes are almost completely dismissive though, and one is more improvement with the persons with ADHD.

however this isn't the real power behind the research(more on adhd in a second). the real power is knowing that most of the world doesn't understand this information in any context, or atleast to the extent of just how beneficial it is. if you have someone with ADHD who applies these principles and someone without then the answer is obvious, even when applied to the second category, the person with ADHD will be so much more ahead of the curve than the one that just simply stumbles in later in on.

the second is knowing just what the growth mind has with ADHD. that saying "just try harder" isn't what the growth mindset is about, it's figuring out how to try, something that is often overlooked. a person with ADHD would, one way, figure out behaverior patterns that are a magic bullet for us, you can't even try if you don't know how, for instance. a person with a fixed mindset with a disability might not even think there is anyway to try at all because "trying harder" just doesn't work, it's finding how to try.

the other is the struggle. in the examples in her research the author and pshychologist (sorry not going back to look her name) says it's this struggle to figure out how you work and learn is the keystone to what makes people successful in their endeavors, and that those with the most challenge are oft the ones that succeed the most in the end.

but, for me, the best thing to know is how exactly one thinks with a fixed mind in regards to ADHD and other disabilities (well and general fixed mind). with a fixed mind you can (and as the research suggests, mostly do) "make up their mind" without actually knowing the facts, and in these instances the worst case scenario is almost always the one that prevails. accepting ADHD is one thing, putting shackles on yourself for the worst case scenerior for it is another completely. for instance, one can say that behavior models would have no benafit to oneself because you link "trying harder" together with it, or the fact that ADHD is a very complex spectrum that hits every single person completely differently, a fixed mind would, therefore, ignore that to act out exactly how they think they should act, without exploring how they could better parts of their life and how they are boxing themselves in completely.

I mean, you have read the boards, I wonder just how many people have actually tried behavior modification? is it any mystery that those that do go to therapy for CBT and the like end up doing better? the coorelation is obvious to me

acdc01
09-15-15, 07:05 AM
Your other post Dhrogeda wasn't worded that badly either. But the "food for thought" stuck out to me cause I was actually still giving you a chance until I saw that word so commented on it.

Like I said earlier Dhrogeda, I think you should show your threads to your therapist and see what he thinks. Seems like something is wrong when you just have to convince others of your idea and can't let go.

pixie cut
10-25-15, 04:29 PM
I think people with ADD are some of the most courageous, hopeful, determined people, and some of the funniest, helps keep us going, and that's certainly positive considering all the "worse outcomes" we have experienced. And we've had to learn about brain functioning... sounds kinda growth oriented to me.