View Full Version : "Bottom Up Thinking" (Temple Grandin)


mildadhd
09-26-15, 01:41 AM
Bottom Up Thinking

Individuals on the autism spectrum learn to form concepts by putting many specific examples of a particular concept into a “file folder” in their brain labeled with that concept. Contrary to how non-autistic people think it is “bottom up” instead of “top down” thinking. A non-autistic person forms a concept first, then adds in the details. I created a concept by building it from many specific examples. It is specific to general thinking.

Bottom up learning can be used to teach both very concrete and more abstract concepts ranging from basic safety rules to reading comprehension. In this article I will give examples starting from the most concrete concepts and finishing with more abstract ones. All concepts, regardless of the level of abstraction, must be taught with many specific examples for each concept..

(See more)

http://autismdigest.com/bottom-up-thinking/

I find psychology much easier to understand, if I consider the 7 basic unconditioned emotional response systems from the bottom up.

I have a really hard time understanding how top down executive function develop, without learning how the basic bottom up development occurs first.

Are there any other members that can relate to what Temple Grandin calls "bottom up thinking" here at ADDF?



P

Lunacie
09-26-15, 10:20 AM
I find psychology much easier to understand, if I consider the 7 basic unconditioned emotional response systems from the bottom up.

I have a really hard time understanding how top down executive function develop, without learning how the basic bottom up development occurs first.

Are there any other members that can relate to what Temple Grandin calls "bottom up thinking" here at ADDF?



P

First, I'm not sure Temple Grandin can speak for everyone on the autism
spectrum thinking in this manner. After all, it is a 'spectrum' disorder.



And, I'm not understanding how this affects the ability to participate in a
typical discusssion. (as referenced in dvd's thread)

SB_UK
09-26-15, 03:42 PM
Temple Grandin makes the point that autism spectrum is responsible for Silicon Valley.

Maths and Computing.

Very rule-based.
Very island-based.

Surely that's simply telling us that autism tends towards satisfaction from molecular intricacy rather than big picture thinking.

What's the problem with local detail in the absence of a global map ?

Well - when life becomes a 365 day holiday - what if we find that nobody wants to visit your exquisitely mapped location ?

(thinking all of those resources in sequencing genomes)

so much money and effort.

Just because we can doesn't mean we should <- adder mind.

ADDer minds on intricacy - sure if there's a point, and sure if the approach is elegant.
Otherwise you're just gonna' generate another new computer or natural or esoteric or technical ... ... ... language for people to learn and forget.

It's impossible to speak every language variant created by man.

In fact - creating a new language is really the lay way out.

Instead of working out how to simplify existing - we field another one.

Too many words.

Little Missy
09-26-15, 04:39 PM
Bottoms up!!

mildadhd
09-26-15, 05:51 PM
First, I'm not sure Temple Grandin can speak for everyone on the autism
spectrum thinking in this manner. After all, it is a 'spectrum' disorder.


At birth the brain does not develop in the same order that it learns to think in.

Some of the present scientific terms in knowledgy are based on verbal cognitive observations, but do not consider basic preverbal affective biology.

There are 3 levels of brain processing.

My brain sometimes refuses to start considering a discussion about psychological development at the third level of processing.

It needs to learn the basic numbers first.

1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

At birth, at the primary/secondary (implicit) developmental levels, the circuitry is preverbal. (Conscious feelings without thought)

Following me so far?


And, I'm not understanding how this affects the ability to participate in a typical discusssion. (as referenced in dvd's thread)

Typical psychological discussions don't always include and compare the basic preverbal biology in their observations, yet.

The more I learn about the neurophysiology of affective consciousness and cognitive consciousness, the more I understand about psychology.

(Truer concepts of terms like, rewards and punishments, pains and pleasures, etc...)

Side note: It is amazing how some observations without biology, were so close, but so far away at the same time.


P

mildadhd
09-26-15, 06:34 PM
Temple Grandin makes the point that autism spectrum is responsible for Silicon Valley.

Maths and Computing.

Very rule-based.
Very island-based.

Surely that's simply telling us that autism tends towards satisfaction from molecular intricacy rather than big picture thinking.

What's the problem with local detail in the absence of a global map ?

Well - when life becomes a 365 day holiday - what if we find that nobody wants to visit your exquisitely mapped location ?

(thinking all of those resources in sequencing genomes)

so much money and effort.

Just because we can doesn't mean we should <- adder mind.

ADDer minds on intricacy - sure if there's a point, and sure if the approach is elegant.
Otherwise you're just gonna' generate another new computer or natural or esoteric or technical ... ... ... language for people to learn and forget.

It's impossible to speak every language variant created by man.

In fact - creating a new language is really the lay way out.

Instead of working out how to simplify existing - we field another one.

Too many words.


To many words at the secondary (learning, memory) and tertiary (awareness, self-regulation) processing levels of brain control. (Diverse experiences)

What I love about the basic preverbal primary emotional-affective neuroscientific terminology, is there are only 7 unconditioned emotional response systems to know. (Common affective preexperiences)

:D


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mildadhd
09-26-15, 07:05 PM
Bottoms up!!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hdcTmpvDO0I

Visceral

Motor

Body/Brain



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ADaptHD
09-26-15, 07:43 PM
I find psychology much easier to understand, if I consider the 7 basic unconditioned emotional response systems from the bottom up.

I have a really hard time understanding how top down executive function develop, without learning how the basic bottom up development occurs first.

Are there any other members that can relate to what Temple Grandin calls "bottom up thinking" here at ADDF?



P
I relate more to "top down" thinking, not in the sense of executive functioning, but in wanting to understand the general concept before going into the details. I always thought this could be partly an ADHD thing -- wanting to skip over details and all that.

But I can also see ADHDers as "bottom-up" in some situations, too. Ironically, Grandin's article actually strikes me as very "top-down" and conceptual in some sense.

Speaking of "verbal" and "preverbal," Grandin has some good stuff on "thinking in pictures" and different people thinking in words vs. thinking in pictures -- her point being that people with autism are more likely to think in pictures rather than words. I wonder if ADHDers are also less likely to think in words; it shocked me the first time I realized that some people actually think primarily words.

IIRC Barkley also lists impaired internal self-talk as being related to ADHD.

Lunacie
09-26-15, 07:55 PM
At birth the brain does not develop in the same order that it learns to think in.

Some of the present scientific terms in knowledgy are based on verbal cognitive observations, but do not consider basic preverbal affective biology.


There are 3 levels of brain processing.

My brain sometimes refuses to start considering a discussion about psychological development at the third level of processing.

It needs to learn the basic numbers first.

1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

At birth, at the primary/secondary (implicit) developmental levels, the circuitry is preverbal. (Conscious feelings without thought)

Following me so far?



What does that have to do with my saying that one autistic cannot speak for
all autistics?



Typical psychological discussions don't always include and compare the basic preverbal biology in their observations, yet.

The more I learn about the neurophysiology of affective consciousness and cognitive consciousness, the more I understand about psychology.

(Truer concepts of terms like, rewards and punishments, pains and pleasures, etc...)

Side note: It is amazing how some observations without biology, were so close, but so far away at the same time.


P

I don't think you actually answered my question.

mildadhd
09-26-15, 07:56 PM
Temple Grandin makes the point that autism spectrum is responsible for Silicon Valley.

Maths and Computing.

Very rule-based.
Very island-based.

Surely that's simply telling us that autism tends towards satisfaction from molecular intricacy rather than big picture thinking...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBEPH0JEXyM

dvdnvwls
09-26-15, 08:14 PM
I'm not autistic but I share a few surprising similarities (well, they're surprising to me) with some autistic people. And I do sometimes think in pictures. I often think in concepts or "top down". I know at least one autistic person who thinks primarily in words and almost never in pictures, but who nonetheless thinks in a primarily bottom-up way. Another autistic person who I'm familiar with but never knew, seems to have been a pretty extreme example of a top-down thinker.

This is to show that none of what is being discussed here has to do with one group or disorder vs another group or disorder, and everything to do with individual variation and individual opinion.

And I'm mystified at the attempt to make a connection between ability to participate in forum discussions and being constrained to think in only one way. Someone who thinks in a bottom-up way will obviously have different contributions and different questions than someone who thinks in a top-down way; however, the essence of a discussion forum - personal engagement with each other's ideas - is the same in every case. Lack of personal engagement with other people's ideas (and/or limiting their personal engagement with your ideas) on a discussion forum does not constitute or result from a different way of thinking, nor is it an example of using an alternative format - it's simply misuse or misunderstanding.

mildadhd
09-26-15, 08:18 PM
What does that have to do with my saying that one autistic cannot speak for
all autistics?

I don't think you actually answered my question.

Interest in learning about affective neuroscience and cognitive neuroscience may help to understand my reply.

I wish everyone was interested, I don't expect everyone to be interested.

I don't know Temple Grandin, but I know Temple Grandin is interested.



P

mildadhd
09-26-15, 08:40 PM
I relate more to "top down" thinking, not in the sense of executive functioning, but in wanting to understand the general concept before going into the details. I always thought this could be partly an ADHD thing -- wanting to skip over details and all that.

But I can also see ADHDers as "bottom-up" in some situations, too. Ironically, Grandin's article actually strikes me as very "top-down" and conceptual in some sense.

Speaking of "verbal" and "preverbal," Grandin has some good stuff on "thinking in pictures" and different people thinking in words vs. thinking in pictures -- her point being that people with autism are more likely to think in pictures rather than words. I wonder if ADHDers are also less likely to think in words; it shocked me the first time I realized that some people actually think primarily words.

IIRC Barkley also lists impaired internal self-talk as being related to ADHD.


Any bottom up research by Russel Barkley would really be appreciated.


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Lunacie
09-26-15, 08:54 PM
Interest in learning about affective neuroscience and cognitive neuroscience may help to understand my reply.

I wish everyone was interested, I don't expect everyone to be interested.

I don't know Temple Grandin, but I know Temple Grandin is interested.



P

Or ... you could try to actually answer the question.

I'd rather know what YOU think than see videos and quotes from authors.

mildadhd
09-26-15, 09:43 PM
Or ... you could try to actually answer the question.

I'd rather know what YOU think than see videos and quotes from authors.

I did try to express basically what I think in post #5, with the intention of discussing more, but I am not sure what you are interested in and what you are not interested in.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1757991&postcount=5

I am not really sure why we don't understand each other?

My guess would be we have different interests?

(Side note any bottom up discussion is appreciated)


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mildadhd
09-26-15, 09:57 PM
Lunacie,

Maybe if you presented some bottom up/top down research that you prefer to help promote discussion and help us understand each other's interests better?



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BellaVita
09-26-15, 10:20 PM
When I am learning a concept, I usually just memorize a thousand different examples and scenarios. Sometimes I don't even understand the concept, just the little details that "make it up" which can make me appear smart since I memorize all of the little details.

I don't see the big picture.

I have a very good memory for detail, my brain is filled with details.

I form conclusions on things based on a thousand details.

It's literally the only way I know how to think - detail oriented.

Edit - Not saying that I never understand concepts. Sometimes, I understand a concept that no one else seems to be able to, and I have no clue why. I wonder if it's partially from my data-gathering and storage of a thousand details and then the concept "pops" into my head after placing all of those details in their correct orders and places.

Lunacie
09-26-15, 10:21 PM
I did try to express basically what I think in post #5, with the intention of discussing more, but I am not sure what you are interested in and what you are not interested in.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1757991&postcount=5

I am not really sure why we don't understand each other?

My guess would be we have different interests?

(Side note any bottom up discussion is appreciated)


P

I didn't realize until this particular thread that psychology is what you are
interested in exploring and discussing. I don't know why that didn't seem
clear sooner.

I am not particularly interested in psychology. If that's your focus, then I'll
just move on and let you find others who share that interest.

mildadhd
09-26-15, 10:21 PM
Ironically, Grandin's article actually strikes me as very "top-down" and conceptual in some sense.



I agree.

Thinking about basic bottom up development, before, thinking about top down development.


P

mildadhd
09-27-15, 12:27 AM
I don't think there would be any top down thinking, without bottom up thinking.



P

mildadhd
09-27-15, 12:43 AM
First, I'm not sure Temple Grandin can speak for everyone on the autism
spectrum thinking in this manner. After all, it is a 'spectrum' disorder.



I relate more to "top down" thinking, not in the sense of executive functioning, but in wanting to understand the general concept before going into the details. I always thought this could be partly an ADHD thing -- wanting to skip over details and all that.

But I can also see ADHDers as "bottom-up" in some situations, too...

.. I wonder if ADHDers are also less likely to think in words; it shocked me the first time I realized that some people actually think primarily words.





I was diagnosed with moderate ADD.

But i find I have similarities/overlap with People with Autism like Temple Grandin, (as well as other people with ADHDs, schizophrenias, bi polars, etc.)

Many parts of Temple Grandin movie feel like the Peripheral movie.

Maybe not always the same severity, but I can definitely relate.

Diverse terminology especially without basic biology in mind, can be very confusing to me.

It is like, it is possible people have different levels of progression in similar areas development.

Side note, In the past have noticed a huge difference in my ability to communicate with members on the forum, verses, communicating with the same members on the phone.

It literally takes hours to communicate in writing, that I could say easily communicate susscessfully in a much shorter time using other forms of communication.

It is much easier to understand our basic similarities than our complex differences.


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mildadhd
09-27-15, 01:15 AM
Considering Autisms, ADHDs, schizophrenias, depressions, anxieties, bi polars, etc, are much easier to understand when I consider them from the bottom up, scientifically.

Basic similarities seem more similar, and differences seem less different.


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mildadhd
09-27-15, 01:28 AM
Example.

I would love to try a squeeze machine.

In the movie Temple Grandin, when Temple Grandin was in school she did her squeeze machine research with females.

But I a guessing the squeeze machine also helps some males.

"ADHD males have some kind of anxiety" (paraphrasing post by RedHairedWitch)

If I ever get it together enough to go back to school, I would like to replicate the same squeeze machine research with males.

(One of my to many unfinished ideas)


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SB_UK
09-27-15, 02:28 AM
I relate more to "top down" thinking, not in the sense of executive functioning, but in wanting to understand the general concept before going into the details. I always thought this could be partly an ADHD thing -- wanting to skip over details and all that.

But I can also see ADHDers as "bottom-up" in some situations, too. Ironically, Grandin's article actually strikes me as very "top-down" and conceptual in some sense.

Speaking of "verbal" and "preverbal," Grandin has some good stuff on "thinking in pictures" and different people thinking in words vs. thinking in pictures -- her point being that people with autism are more likely to think in pictures rather than words. I wonder if ADHDers are also less likely to think in words; it shocked me the first time I realized that some people actually think primarily words.

IIRC Barkley also lists impaired internal self-talk as being related to ADHD.


Exclusively words here.

Excellent point.

Something very meaningful in your observation.

The idea of

external - 'spatial' - reality <- can't do this - 'eye-based' -
internal - 'word-based' <- tend towards this - 'ear-based' -

'eye' 'ear' - 2 major informational streams

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mysteries-add/201108/the-mysteries-add-and-high-iq
Some were strongest in verbal comprehension, some were strongest in visual-spatial reasoning, and some were equally strong in both.So - you're feeding us into a core difference between ADDers.

The word-based need be assisted in entering the spatial reality.
The spatial-based need be assisted in entering the word-based reality.

Classically - word-based do well at school.
Classically - spatial-based will fare badly - but will do better in practical tasks.

In the UK we once had 2 streams, one for word-based and the other for practical-based.

We should be able to fuse optical and aural informaional streams into Peripheral's 7 unconditioned emotional systems - since processing sound and vision definitely occurs pre-verbal.

I want to connect word-based to 'female archetype' and practical-based to male archetype.
Certainly it's known (female archetype will be enriched in females) - that girls have better language skills than boys.

Complicates though - since boys tend towards intricate systems - maths and computing.
eg Stephen Hawking

Girls - tend towards less exact systems eg history, natural language.
eg Stephen Hawking's wife and language.

Not making sense at the moment.

Female archetype mind - communication / top down <- not a specialist won't be welcome in academia
Male archetype mind - 'how things work' / bottom up <- classical academic

Just trying to work out if this works ... .. ....

Generation - male archetype
Distribution - female archetype

Both - of course are required.

-*-


Male archetype mind - 'how things work' / bottom up <- classical academic Classical autistic mind.

Also (Simon Baron Cohen) - we find autism enriched in children with both parents as academics - ie systematizing parents have much increased chance of autistic childs.

Which places attachment (presumably absence of an empathizing parent) as important ie

'love' (attachment stage) pre-verbal of mother-child as important in educating the child in appropriate (social) emotions.
To be happy when the signals (from another person (mother in first case)) are that you should be happy, and to be sad when you're supposed ot be sad ?

So - learning social behaviour requires baby to learn social emotions.
All pre-verbal.
Once social emotions are learnt - the basis is in place to operate within the social program - which should correct the array of issues which arise with human beings through language creating anti-social/immoral systems for others to fail in.

Or simply - we need to feel bad when we do things if they're bad (hurt other people) or we'll tend towards the usual psychopath who desires money/power/abuse.

Correcting the core problem of appropriate emotional learning won't take place until we stop people from needing to work for money to survive.

SB_UK
09-27-15, 03:00 AM
So - generalizing back.

If evolution occurs by emergence of male archetype and then generation of heierarchically higher female archetype, which balance to generate hierarchically higher male archetype to balanced (parental male - female archetypes)
- then we could see male archetype as 'creative' and female archetype as 'connective'.

Male archetype in over-exuberance will reject elimination of his creation.
Female archetype in over-exuberance will resist change - as this'll require work in restructuring.

We need seamless creation and re-structuring.

Which sounds a lot like what happens in our minds - to encounter and to house a new idea - with encountering important, but also welcoming in.

-*-

Back to eyes and ears.

Can we connect processing of external [optial,aural] signals, mother-child attachment, pre-verbal emotional learning ?

Just writing the question generates the link.

We have:

mother sad face -> attachment conveys sad emotion -> baby feels sad -> training of social emotional skills (to be applied in later life as guide over verbal behaviour)
mother sad sound -> attachment conveys sad emotion -> baby feels sad -> training of social emotional skills (to be applied in later life as guide over verbal behaviour)

So - and that sounds right - we actually must learn to fuse
sensory informational flow - emotional reaction - social behaviour via reward - and this develops post-mind (ie after pursuing that paradigm above in life) -

to

sensory informational flow from the senses - emotional reaction - reward

-*-

The important part of that idea would be that:

Pre-verbal attachment between mother and child triggers the child to obtain reward from sensory informational flow. It's not the actual sensory information - but the fact that child (through mirroring/attachment) feels bad when child sees/hears the attachement figure display the appropriate signs.

That entire profile of learning then guides the child through the verbal stage of life (which represents the transition to wisdom) - where SOCIAL behaviour is required to control verbal application ie we're meant to use eg Buddhism's right speech within scientific context towards knowing moral/rational behaviour.

And finally - the connection between social and sensory shifts to

sensory information driving reward - representing freedom from attachment.

-*-

Just working out if that works ... ... ...

So - would that mean that upon attaining wisdom that we could become pyschopathic ?
No - no longer a need to derive emotional reward from others - but we hit enforcedly moral on wisdom - meaning that we must continue to be moral - just that we need exert ourselves in that way in order to derive reward which we NEED. We no longer need the reward.

The neat part of the idea - is that it helpsus into understanding the transition from social attachment as reward to informational flow as reward.

If it's programmed from the start in pre-verbal mother-child attachment and trainign of mother for child of appropriate (ie social) unconitioned 7 emotional subsystem acquisition.

Wiring in of 'social' from the start - wiring in of 'sensory informational flow' into reward.

-*-

Now back again to external (spatial or picture -based thinkers)
vs
internal (word-based thinkers)

Standard academia closes off the wordy world to picture-based people
- and close off the practical world to wordy people

- wordy people (eg standard academics) can inhabit Ivory Towers.
They will then generate increasing pointless complexity

And practical people will do the same - but within a practical arena.
Ever seen how many non-standard screws and nails and (!!!) exist.

In both cases, through imbalance between the internal and external worlds - experts in these two areas are making life increasingly more impossible (pointlessly complicated) for other people to exist autonomously in.

In both worlds - you need an academic or a practical expert to echo an academic or a practical point of view.

So - we've progressive disenfranchisement of people on their own minds - and the whole purpose of this stage of evolution is to own yourself.

Owning yourself naturally connects to slavery - wage slavery.

And we then see that the motivation driving the generation of pointless complexity in academic and practical arenas -
is the drive by the 'expert' in whichever area to gain more money, power, abilitiy to abuse others.

The solution to the problem above is to eliminate external (ie money) reward.

And if attachment figure failing to train child in emotions results in dysfunctional (childs without social behaviour) - then we'll find that the key distress suffered by mother is having to return to work through fear of losing her job - after giving birth.

The solution to this problem also is to eliminate external (ie money) reward.

SB_UK
09-27-15, 03:04 AM
That's pretty neat.

We've travelled bottom up - from the first night of birth and the attachment event featuring an oxytocin surge between mother and child to happiness in later age (freedom from attachment) ... ... and from freedom from attachment (reward through sensory flow) back down to learned behaviour (connection between optical and aural informational flow via attachment into unconditioned emotional systems/reward system) ... ... and the first night of birth.

That's an elegant simultaneous both (thoroughly consistent) bottom up and top down view over the human life-cycle.

mildadhd
09-27-15, 03:08 AM
I want to connect word-based to 'female archetype' and practical-based to male archetype.
Certainly it's known (female archetype will be enriched in females) - that girls have better language skills than boys.


Learning, Not completely sure need to review, leave room for error, thoughts appreciated.

I do remember reading that males and females, in general, do use some different areas of higher processing levels of control less or more.

But early childhood PLAY research (toyless) showed little differences in rough and tumble play, between genders.

Basic primary emotional feelings, homeostatic feelings, sensory feelings (similar in all mammals)

The fact that the 3 primary affects (feelings) are biologically very similar in all mammalian BrainMinds.

Makes it almost certain that they are also basically similar among humans.

Temple Grandin's book "Animals Make Us Human", compares the Basic 7 unconditioned emotional response systems using the capitalized Affective Neuroscience terminology recommended by Jaak Panksepp, from beginning to end.

A must read for anyone interested in comparing common bottom up emotional response systems and basic associated behaviours.

side note: bottom up discussion about basic Homeostatic affects, and Sensory affects would be also be much appreciated. (As well as secondary and tertiary connections.)


P

SB_UK
09-27-15, 03:09 AM
What's the message to society re: optical and aural people.

Stop making somebody who's good at one thing only good at the one thing.

Jack (tending towards Master) of ALL things.

Individual diversity in quality as correlate of richness of our internal quality landscape - the sensorimotor cerebellar loops which shape our experiential perspective ie

more simply for the educational system to teach people to taste the subtle tones in life for themselves.

For only then has the individual become (a rewarding virtuous circle/spiral upwards is put in place) better.

mildadhd
09-27-15, 03:29 AM
When I am learning a concept, I usually just memorize a thousand different examples and scenarios. Sometimes I don't even understand the concept, just the little details that "make it up" which can make me appear smart since I memorize all of the little details.

I don't see the big picture.

I have a very good memory for detail, my brain is filled with details.

I form conclusions on things based on a thousand details.

It's literally the only way I know how to think - detail oriented.

Edit - Not saying that I never understand concepts. Sometimes, I understand a concept that no one else seems to be able to, and I have no clue why. I wonder if it's partially from my data-gathering and storage of a thousand details and then the concept "pops" into my head after placing all of those details in their correct orders and places.

One thing in the Temple Grandin movie that I did not relate to, one was a photographic memory.

Not a visual memory anyway?

But I can picture basic geometric shapes, but I wonder if that is math related, more than visual?

I can draw well if whatever I want to draw is literally in front of me, but I never really draw from a picture stored in my memory. (I don't see it with my eyes to pencil, anyway?)

There is lots I want to comment but I want to think about from a basic bottom up/top down perspective first, this is all quite fascinating.


P

BellaVita
09-27-15, 03:35 AM
There are a couple things in the Temple a Grandin movie that I did not relate to, one was a photographic memory.

I can draw well if whatever I want to draw is literally in front of me, but I never really draw from a picture stored in my memory. (I don't see it anyway?)

There is lots I want to comment but I want to think about from a basic bottom up/top down perspective first, this is all quite fascinating.


P

I don't think in pictures, I think in words. (Mostly)

Like earlier, someone was trying to describe a shape to me and I couldn't picture it, but I saw the word "circle" in my head.

I'm the same way with drawing that you said, about not seeing the picture in my head but I'm pretty decent if the thing is right in front of me.

So for you do you learn concepts by memorizing all of the details?

Sometimes concepts for me are just details but I make it look like a concept. :o

SB_UK
09-27-15, 03:38 AM
Learning, Not completely sure need to review, leave room for error, thoughts appreciated.

I do remember reading that males and females, in general, do use higher processing levels of control less or more.

But early childhood PLAY research (toyless) showed little differences in rough and tumble play, between genders.

Basic primary emotional feelings, homeostatic feelings, sensory feelings (similar in all mammals)

The fact that the 3 primary affects (feelings) are biologically very similar in all mammalian BrainMinds.

Makes it almost certain that they are also basically similar among humans.

Temple Grandin's book "Animals Make Us Human", compares the Basic 7 unconditioned emotional response systems using the capitalized Affective Neuroscience terminology recommended by Jaak Panksepp, from beginning to end.

A must read for anyone interested in comparing common bottom up emotional response systems and basic associated behaviours.

side note: bottom up discussion about basic Homeostatic affects, and Sensory affects would be also be much appreciated. (As well as secondary and tertiary connections.)


P


So -

Sensory
Homeostatic
Emotional

effects can be understood at the level of the nerve forming connections (learning).

All that the nerve can do is learn and then do.

reptilian
mammalian
human

layers to the brain.

Each of these layers is characterized by emotions - 'selfish' emotions (not pejorative) to reptilian, 'social' emotions to mammalian and in man -
'selfish'/'social' balance to be interpreted as the model of existence which is both best for the individual and best for the species = the state of wisdom.

So - we've sensory, homeostatic and emotional as levels on which appropriate stimulation (not distress but eustress) must occur in order for merves to self-assemble in learning at the 3 basic stages of evolutionary psychology - ALL necessary - the capacity to control autonomic, social and cognitive capacities.

All emotions can be generalized back to the nerve.

PLAY - constructive learning actually at the level of nerve.
Not necessarily explicitly 'PLAY time' - rough and tumble play - acquiring external world balance without actually realising that you're learning.

The key to TRUE learning would be to learn without realising that you're learning <- extremely important ... ... with (eg riding a bike) the observation that after learning - you actually become (without the capacity to regress) - BETTER.

SB_UK
09-27-15, 03:40 AM
One thing in the Temple Grandin movie that I did not relate to, one was a photographic memory.

Not a visual memory anyway?

But I can picture basic geometric shapes, but I wonder if that is math related, more than visual?

I can draw well if whatever I want to draw is literally in front of me, but I never really draw from a picture stored in my memory. (I don't see it with my eyes anyway?)

There is lots I want to comment but I want to think about from a basic bottom up/top down perspective first, this is all quite fascinating.


P

I don't think in pictures, I think in words. (Mostly)

Like earlier, someone was trying to describe a shape to me and I couldn't picture it, but I saw the word "circle" in my head.

I'm the same way with drawing that you said, about not seeing the picture in my head but I'm pretty decent if the thing is right in front of me.

So for you do you learn concepts by memorizing all of the details?

Sometimes concepts for me are just details but I make it look like a concept. :o


Yes - only words here also.

mildadhd
09-27-15, 03:49 AM
Words are not really my thing.

Although I have improved a little.

Discussions with members at ADDForums have helped me branch out.

Especially with the neurophysiology.

Working on it when reminded.


:D

SB_UK
09-27-15, 03:53 AM
So appropriate SENSORY,HOMEOSTATIC AND EMOTIONAL conditions required for LEARNING at REPTILIAN,MAMMALIAN and HUMAN levels of functioning - representing the evolutionary psychology. What is learnt on the REPTILIAN,MAMMALIAN and HUMAN levels are functions which are expressed through emotions - and Peripheral has listed the 4 emotions associated with REPTILIAN and the 3 emotions associated with SOCIAL MAMMALIAN function.
The general pattern in evolution is -

male archetype
male archetype balanced with hierarchically higher female archetype
child archetype (next male archetype) balancing {{{balanced parental archetypes}}}

M1

M1/|\F1
M1/

M1M2
M1/|\F1
M1/

M1 - selfish ie relating to the behaviour of the physical, individual body
F1 - social behaviour
M2 - mind representing selfish/social balance or a world which is best for one and best for all.

SB_UK
09-27-15, 04:10 AM
The goal would be to maintain the developing nervous system in the eustressful (ie not distressed) learning zone through learning during the REPTILIAN, MAMMALIAN and HUMAN stages.

Part of the problem here - is that we're associating emotions with the horizontal layers and emotions with the vertical layers.

So - learning occurring on each evolutionary layer through emotion, and novel emotions acquire with each layer also.

So for that - we'd need a basic guiding emotional reaction of distress which permits staging of the REPTILIAN, MAMMALIAN and HUMAN learnt emotions.

That makes sense.

Completely automatic distress at the level of nerve to EMOTIONAL (eg understimulating nerve), SENSORY (eg over-stimulating nerve) AND HOMEOSTATIC (eg hunger starving nerve) challenge.

That's interesting again - EMOTIONAL and SENSORY distress can be considered the two distressing states which surround the EUSTRESS balanced point or 'learning zone' which the nerve wishes to develop itself within during the process of broad sense learning.

So - a program of learning of the nervous system - employing sensitivity to SENSORY, HOMEOSTATIC and EMOTIONAL distress which (if avoided) - leads to learnign at the levels of REPTILIAN, MAMMALIAN and HUMAN platforms
- resulting in redefinition of
EMOTIONAL - UNDER-STIMULATION - distress 1
HOMEOSTATIC - BALANCE POINT - eustress
SENSORY - OVER-STIMULATION - distress 2

DISTRESS 1 -> EUSTRESS <- DISTRESS 2

-*-

Bringing all of that together.

The nervous system is required to develop in an eolutionarily stipulated manner, and this development requires it to learn. It learns simply by placing it in an appropriate (eustressful) learning environment - and the rest happens by simply virtue of the only mechanism the nerve has at its disposal - to make sense of incoming information.

The sole enemy of learning is distress - which results, as we know from eg prolonged exposure of children to distress - to a brain in which the learning process has not been sequentially formed ie can't build level 4 of a tower block without level 1 ... ... and so the 'rewarding' aspects of PLAY (the nerve through learning activating reward) are lost

- the child reverts (for reward) to activation of the primitive (addictive) reward system

- ie the non-neural paradigm but genomic-paradigm of reward - which results in addiciton, self-destruction.

-*-

The goal is for the individual/society to become individually and collectively better.
For the individual and society to support one another to become individually and collectively better.
To enjoy becoming individually and collectively better.

All of this will naturally occur in a world without co-ercion ie a world without (in effect) money and law.

SB_UK
09-27-15, 04:13 AM
So

The nerve simply wants to be in its (associated-appropriate evolutionary psychology stage) eustressful learning zone.

The genome provides the blank slate.
Environment then shapes learning (broad sense) ie the generation of an individual that becomes progressively better in recognition capacity for ever more subtle informational flow.

Art, music, beauty, elegance, subtlety.

The ADDer represents a type gifted with machinery capable of discerning quality (in the right learning zone) - but this enhanced sensitivity - gives rise to distress in an environment which isn't set up to generate quality.

Both predisposed to quality in the correct environment and predisposed to addiction in an insensitive environment.

Our current world is not set up to generate quality of life.

It's set up to generate a species of addicts to money and power.

Rich and poor alike - everybody's at it.

There's no point in acquiring lots of $tuff; there's only a point in becoming intrinsically better.

To learn (broad sense).

SB_UK
09-27-15, 04:37 AM
Wisdom can only come from paired ie logically consistent top down and bottom up models of knowledge - giving rise to understanding.

Top down and bottom up fuse to generate understanding ie the capacity for generative/creative processes consistent with what's known - to improve the collective landscape.

A slightly more dificult point - we're at the point of shift from understanding of reality into understandign of sensory quality.

The idea above (ie the capacity for generative/creative processes consistent with what's known) is easily transferrable into model of understanding of reality ... ... but that stage is about to come to an end.

It then needs to be interpreted in the intuitive, creative aspect of man in generating sensory quality - art, music, elegance ... ... ... which will be generated by virtue of the current instantiation of the only trick that nerves have (towards this effect)
- but we won't be too sure (the conscious mind) how we do it.

Lovely reference back to cerebellar automatising and its relationship to learning.

By that I mean - that 'quality begets quality' - because that's what the underlying nervous system which develops towards quality will do -

- but there won't be any explicit conscious explanation for how an individual knew that what s/he'd do (expression of the creative impulse towards greater quality) would have that consequence.

Trying again - the world of words which connects more to understanding of reality and the world of eg music (sensory informational flow) (creation and enjoyment of music) need not co-incide.

The composer doesn't compose with words.The listener doesn't use words to enjoy the music.

So - language,science are intimately tied up with words.
But - sensory informational flow discernment isn't.

So - are words, science dead ? with a Theory of Everything.

As far as science/words represent a path towards wisdom - and the opening of doors to sensory information flow floating our boats - yes.

But the evolutionary psychology model of 'recapitulation' insists that children will have to be educated through precise use of words/simple science into the state of enlightened freedom.

OK - so upon enlightenment - do science and words cease to matter ?
Well the point in life is/was always and simply to be happy.
It was never to learn a couple of formula or the longest word in the dictionary,.

And as far as I can see I'm happy enough - simply in the silence and in the sun - and so rather than stating that science, words (which both of course relate to a completed mind ie the wise mind is characterized by true scientific structure of information ie the wise individual is the only individual that may take the label scientist)
- I'd probably prefer the idea that one's personal relationship to words and science change when one BECOMES words and science.

Further explanation - we can't do science properly or use words properly until the underlying mind which shapes words/science is rationalized into wisdom structure.

SB_UK
09-27-15, 05:12 AM
The idea then wholly concentrates on 'distress'.

Distress disrupts genomic, biomic and connectomic programs.

This thread concentrates on the connectomic program - however distress operates on the genomic and biomic levels also.

We need eustress on each of these three levels of developmental progression.

So - genomic developmental stress eg in utero under- / over- supply or inappropriate supply of nutrients - > adverse outcome

and biomic developmental stress eg nutritional profile eg low in pre- and pro-biotics (ie onions and kimchi) diminishes gut bacterial diversity as agents of peripheral 'happy' neurotransmitter expression (eg serotonin) to the brain.

It's a lovely connected model of human functioning.

From the process of perfect meiosis (eg the generation of de novo germline mutations through E... ...) to a life without suffering prior to death (eg the loss of cell cycle control through reactive oxygen species induced genomic mutations through E... ...)


E... ...
ENVIRONMENTAL STRESSORS.

We need to maintain eustressful ENVIRONMENT.

And the opposite to the core structure of medicine (PHYSIOLOGY) is (DI)STRESS.

Physiology - Eustress and Homeostasis are synonymous
- and each has a separate definition at the genomic, biomic and connectomic levels.

Combined optimal operation of each to allow the whole to operate without dysfunction.

BellaVita
09-27-15, 06:17 AM
Yes - only words here also.

I can tell. ;)

Roundmouth
09-27-15, 06:38 AM
I highly recognize this kind of thinking and learning and I've been aware of it for a few years. In new situation I have like 2D-vision... Shapes and colors, all with equal value. Then I get a feeling for the concept and it's like opening the other eye - a perspective appears. The Van Gogh paining transforms into a tunnel.

I sometimes joke about it, saying that I understand everything, except for the obvious. Almost all our patients have executive problems and the people I work with usually can't understand that. I believe I do and sometimes I believe I can explain things to the patients where others fail.

The big problem is the constant overload. I need hugh amounts of information before I can draw any conclusions. On the other hand, I don't miss details that others tend to see as irrelevant.

BellaVita
09-27-15, 06:54 AM
The big problem is the constant overload. I need hugh amounts of information before I can draw any conclusions. On the other hand, I don't miss details that others tend to see as irrelevant.

Same here.

I can't *not* take details in - I don't have an "ignore" option in my brain. So I get overloaded quickly because every detail I see my brain takes in.

And I too need huge amounts of information before I can draw a conclusion.

Sometimes I need so much information that people become confused, and scratch their head wondering why I'm gathering so much data.

I really can't draw a conclusion until I have a massive swamp of details in my brain.

And same about not missing details that others find irrelevant.

ADaptHD
09-27-15, 06:56 AM
Any bottom up research by Russel Barkley would really be appreciated.
Here's the relevant passage from his ADHD fact sheet (http://www.russellbarkley.org/factsheets/adhd-facts.pdf):

Delayed development of internal language (the mind’s voice) and rule-following. Research has lately been suggesting that children with ADHD are significantly delayed in the development of internal language, the private voice inside one’s mind that we employ to converse with ourselves, contemplate events, and direct or command our own behavior. This private speech is absolutely essential to the normal development of contemplation, reflection, and self-regulation. Its delay in those with ADHD contributes to significant problems with their ability to follow through on rules and instructions, to read and follow directions carefully, to follow through on their own plans, rules, and “do-lists,” and even to act with legal or moral principles in mind. When combined with their difficulties with working memory, this problem with self-talk or private speech often results in significant interference with reading comprehension, especially of complex, uninteresting, or extended reading assignment

I'm sure he's written about this in more detail somewhere, but I'm not sure where.

Considering Autisms, ADHDs, schizophrenias, depressions, anxieties, bi polars, etc, are much easier to understand when I consider them from the bottom up, scientifically.

Basic similarities seem more similar, and differences seem less different.
Actually, this could be where neuropsychiatric research is heading. Eg. see recent studies on common genetic factors between these disorders. The problem with too much "top-down" thinking is that you sometimes end up with categories that aren't really helpful, like DSM categories which are helpful in clinical practice but might end up running into a brick wall in research.

The idea of

external - 'spatial' - reality <- can't do this - 'eye-based' -
internal - 'word-based' <- tend towards this - 'ear-based' -

'eye' 'ear' - 2 major informational streams
That's an interesting way of thinking about it. I'll throw out "parallel" (non-verbal) vs. "sequential" (verbal) thinking, or non-linear vs. linear thinking, as another way of putting it.

So - you're feeding us into a core difference between ADDers.

The word-based need be assisted in entering the spatial reality.
The spatial-based need be assisted in entering the word-based reality.
So ADHDers aren't more likely to be one or the other, but are more likely to be at extreme ends of the spectrum? I could buy that.

Unmanagable
09-27-15, 10:16 AM
I tend to think in lyrics, pictures, AND words.

I see the bigger picture in most things, yet can't explain it to the satisfaction of those who don't, more often than not deciding to simply not engage with others.

My intuition has served me better than any textbook ever has.

Words are the thing that trip me up the most when coming from others, and in my attempts to relay information to another.

It's a lonely existence wherever I roam.

daveddd
09-27-15, 10:35 AM
cant so no pictures in my mind

only hear stuff

daveddd
09-27-15, 10:36 AM
cant so no pictures in my mind

only hear stuff


no autism, just adhd and avoidant tendencies

Roundmouth
09-27-15, 11:05 AM
Same here.

I can't *not* take details in - I don't have an "ignore" option in my brain. So I get overloaded quickly because every detail I see my brain takes in.

And I too need huge amounts of information before I can draw a conclusion.

Sometimes I need so much information that people become confused, and scratch their head wondering why I'm gathering so much data.

I really can't draw a conclusion until I have a massive swamp of details in my brain.

And same about not missing details that others find irrelevant.

And so people say 'you seems to be very focused, concious and alert'...

Abi
09-27-15, 11:09 AM
I think I would qualify as a top down thinker.

I'm good at seeing the big picture and annoyed by minor details, which I usually consider mundane trivialities.

My 2 cents.

Lunacie
09-27-15, 11:29 AM
Example.

I would love to try a squeeze machine.

In the movie Temple Grandin, when Temple Grandin was in school she did her squeeze machine research with females.

But I a guessing the squeeze machine also helps some males.

"ADHD males have some kind of anxiety" (paraphrasing post by RedHairedWitch)

If I ever get it together enough to go back to school, I would like to replicate the same squeeze machine research with males.

(One of my to many unfinished ideas)


P

Some autistic people find weighted blankets and vests to be calming.

There are several different kinds of squeeze machines on the market now.

Recently I saw in the news that university kids in Kansas City built a chair
and a lounger that give lovely "hugs" and have tried it on both genders.
They are called The Sensory Chair and The Sensory Lounger, and will soon
have them on the market I hope.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article5011941.html

BellaVita
09-27-15, 11:36 AM
Some autistic people find weighted blankets and vests to be calming.

There are several different kinds of squeeze machines on the market now.

Recently I saw in the news that university kids in Kansas City built a chair
and a lounger that give lovely "hugs" and have tried it on both genders.
They are called The Sensory Chair and The Sensory Lounger, and will soon
have them on the market I hope.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article5011941.html

I've been wanting a weighted blanket for a while now.

So in the meantime I just sleep with lots of blankets on top of me :)

I cannot stand just having a sheet over me, it makes me feel irritable and tense.

daveddd
09-27-15, 11:37 AM
I've been wanting a weighted blanket for a while now.

So in the meantime I just sleep with lots of blankets on top of me :)

I cannot stand just having a sheet over me, it makes me feel irritable and tense.

strange how many of us have opposite extremes


i cant stand even a sheet on me

mildadhd
09-27-15, 12:31 PM
strange how many of us have opposite extremes


i cant stand even a sheet on me

Focusing on the SEEKING system (dopaminergic pathways).

underarousal ------balanced arousal------ overarousal

Horizontally and Vertically (SB_UK)


P

mildadhd
09-27-15, 01:33 PM
-Temple Grandin & Catherine Johnson: "Animals Make Us Human", (Chapter 1, What Do Animals Need?), P 6-7.

Here is a quick rundown of the four blue-ribbon emotion systems, which Jaak always writes in all caps:

SEEKING: Dr. Panksepp says SEEKING is "the basic impulse to search, investigate, and make sense of the environment."

SEEKING is a combination of emotions people usually think of as being different: wanting something really good, looking forward to getting something really good, and curiosity, which most people probably don't think of as being emotion at all.(*6)

The wanting part of SEEKING gives you the energy to go after your goals, which can be anything from food, shelter, and sex to knowledge, a new car, or fame and fortune.

When a cat stalks a mouse, its actions are driven by the SEEKING system.

The looking-forward part of SEEKING is the Christmas emotion.

When kids see all the presents under the Christmas tree, their SEEKING system goes into overdrive.


Curiosity is related to novelty.

I think the orientating response is the first stage of SEEKING because it is attracted to novelty.

When a deer or a dog hears a strange noise, he turns his head, looks and pauses.

During the pause, the animal decides, Do I keep SEEKING, run away in fear, or attack?

New things stimulate the curiosity part of the SEEKING system.

Even when people are curious about something familiar--like behaviorist being curious about animals, for instance-- they can only be curious about some aspect they don't understand.

They are SEEKING and explanation that they don't have yet.

SEEKING is always about something you don't have yet, whether it's food and shelter or Christmas presents or a way to understand animal welfare.


SEEKING is a very pleasurable emotion.

If you implant electrodes into the SEEKING system of an animal's brain, it will press a lever to turn the current on.

Animals like to self-stimulate the SEEKING system so much that for a long time researchers thought the SEEKING system was the brain's "pleasure center," and some people still talk that way.(*7)

But the pleasure people feel when their SEEKING system is stimulated is the pleasure of looking forward to something good, not the pleasure of having something good.(*8)




i!i i!i

Little Missy
09-27-15, 03:57 PM
repeat, repeat, repeat...

mildadhd
09-27-15, 06:03 PM
repeat, repeat, repeat...

Nobody has a issue when terms like executive function/self regulation, sensory systems, etc, are repeated, repeated, repeated...

It is the same with basic 7 unconditioned emotional response systems.

Example.

The biological circuitry of the SEEKING system is involved in every psychological health issue in some manner.

Repeating the basic emotional biology is sometimes unavoidable from a neurophysiological perspective.

Repeating the basic biology in many different contexts, for learning purposes is partly what this thread is about.

side note: Some moderators have PMed me in the recent past, asking me not to repeat myself, and I have been trying not to, and will try harder to review, my older threads more in the future if that helps?

The depths of member discussion in this thread has been terrific so far, I am learning a lot.

Thanks


P

Abi
09-27-15, 06:06 PM
Moderator Note

Back to topic please, everyone.

And if anyone has a problem with repeating or anything else, please use the report button.

SB_UK
09-28-15, 12:52 AM
Need all available info - definitely yes.
Then able to eliminate all extraneous info - definitely yes.

Compelled to integrate all details into a consistent whole - yes.
I think that this related to ADD.

Driven mad by people behaving out of consistency with their own wellbeing.

Seeking - so much better than achieving.

Hope for a better future and Imagination of how that future will look.

There is one thing missing though in furnishing Hope.

An understanding that the mechanism of evolution works to make life better exponentially, such that we cannot even imagine how great life will become as long as we get with the program and work towards exploring the collective creative.

Of allowing people to explore individual creativity towards furthering the collective landscape.

Non-linear vs Linear thinking ?
Linear thinking helps us to explain something clearly.
Non-linear thinking helps us to create by making novel connections.

The key thing about mind is that it needs to extend itself out from itself.

The actual process of mind is interesting as knowing something that somebody did not know - is an act of creation. We're creating something within our worldview which did not exist previously.

under arousal - balanced arousal - over arousal
Back to the nerve

not sufficiently activated - in the learning zone - over-activated

The nerve neither desires to be unused nor to be overused.

To suffer from the pain of boredom to the pain of sensory overload.

under arousal - balanced arousal - over arousal
nerve not sufficiently activated - nerve in the learning zone - nerve over-activated
painful boredom - hyperfocus - painful oversensitivity ('too much information')

We're sitting on top of a nerve which has its own agenda in the amount of information which it wishes to recruit.

Not being able to use a sheet - hypersensitivity
Needing to use multiple sheets - desensitization to hypersensitivity ?
s1 (http://www.physio-pedia.com/Desensitization)
The items used for desensitization vary...[and include]... [B]deep pressure ...s2 (http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article5011941.html)
It’s been well-documented that sensory therapy such as [B]deep touch pressure can calm children with autism
Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article5011941.html#storylink=cpy


-*-

Lunacie - on autism - not under-empathy but over-empathy and incapacity to handle incoming information stream.Dave vs BV

Hypersensitivity (ADD) vs Extreme hypersensitivity (Autism)

Peripheral

under arousal - balanced arousal - over arousal - extreme over arousal
under envionmental arousal - balanced environmental arousal - over environmental arousal - extreme environmental over arousal

So -
AUTISM - classically considered a disorder - sensitivity too high - individual cannot make sense of incoming data - it's really not nice being overloaded with information.

ADD - similar except we're overloaded not by internal mechanism (see Markram's cortical micro-circuits of systematizing, empathizing and sensory information flow) - but by environmental (which can be eliminated) cues.

SB_UK
09-28-15, 01:02 AM
And back around to Ute Frith on Markram (http://spectrumnews.org/opinion/viewpoint/intense-world-theory-raises-intense-worries/) -

and (ps not advocating sensory deprivation)
It proposes that autism is the result of hyperfunctioning of neural circuitry, leading to both feats of talent and a state of over-arousal

... ... and the idea of information flow exceeding the capacity to be handled.

-*-

So - in ADHD - increased sensitivity - see Dave.
And - in autism - pathologically increased sensitivity - comforting nature of desensitizing behaviours. Just to stop the relentless flow of information.

The screaming pain of ADDers on a rollercoaster - the autistic child though can't get off.

Association between information flow and stimulation.

Association with sensitivity to stimulation and (readily seen in this world) information overload.

Same basic mechanism underlying 'sensitivity' in sensitive ADDers and hypersensitivie autistic children.

ADD though is not a disease.
We're simply designed this way for a more immersive existence.

SB_UK
09-28-15, 01:33 AM
So -

at a simple level.

We develop from a single set of instructions in the egg or sperm cell into a creature which aspires to live for 'beauty'.

The rewarding aspect of SEEKING ever richer sensroy information drives us via the dopaminergic system.

The drive to learn - at all of the stages that the nerve learns at - from balance, through mind to quality revolves around the nerve tending towards most efficient handling of information.

So - information handled best ie exquisite balance, exquisite understanding and exquisite sensory immersion.

The nerve has self-assembly of itself into efficient networks for information handling alongside increased information handling as its in-built program of SEEK.

In autism/ADD we're seeing the effects of different cortical network arrangements on level/resolution of information flow. Though wouldn't increased resolution represent increased level of information ie the same MP3 in 384 kbps occupies more space than in 128 kbps.

-*-

Anyway - so how is autism arising ?
What can be done about it ?

The valproic acid model of autism [in utero metabolic state resisting stress/ketoacidosis/maternal diabetes] - covered previously.
The oxytocin [as it relates to care giver empathizing nature and attachment] model of treating autism - covered previously.
The inherited model of autism.

Covered - effects of ketone body metabolism on drivingneural network formation to complexity.

Stress-free pregnancy alongside a form of education which takes the emphasis out of systematizing and places morality as a key component within the systems we generate for ourselves.

-*-

Still - need a better connection ... ... ...

Try again

-1- Systematizing tendency tends towards spurning material pleasures for higher pursuits.

-2- A tendency towards discardign the blood glucose elevation for ascetic (ketone) living

-3- Grand-parent/parent epigenetic restructuring of their genome resulting in epigenetic marks (epialleles) being placed onto the individuals genome which expresses itself in persistent epialleles (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170941&highlight=epi-allele+persistence) within germ cells.

Liking this model better.

-4- So - academia generally transmits ie if a child grows up in an academic environment - they become academic.
Usually multi-generationally.

-5- Known effects of epigenetic marks at grandparent and parent (parent of origin).

-6- Epigenetically inherited (in people turning to academic understanding) through multigenerational epigenetic selection pressure of ketone body based histone deacetylation inhibitor action on the epi/genome ... ... of subsequent generations which are gifted in sensory information handing - an increased resolution of information handling capacity.

-7- Worsened ie accelerated in utero in an adverse metabolic environment.

-8- Worsened ie accelerated if 'learning' via attachment doesn't lift the:
reptilian - autonomic
mammalian - social
human - cognitive

ie see section previously on attachment 'teaching' infant at the preverbal level - the social subsystem on top of which cognitive capacity builds.

Most important though - cognitive is pretty useless without social - ie the mind should only aspire to express itself in creativity which results in collective betterment.

-*-

Suspect I'm model fitting - by forcing genetics, maternal environment and parental relationship together - don't know.

SB_UK
09-28-15, 01:44 AM
The interesting part of all of that.

Is that academic learning gifts future generations with the propensity towards a better life (increased capacity of handling information) - but also - as academia loses sight of moral concerns - and the academic over-complicates - and the subject becomes more important to the academic than the utility of the subject to species betterment -
- that capacity for interpersonal attachment (ie social behaviour) or empathizing capacity is lost.

I wonder whether - systematizing, empathizing and sensory - represent 3 subsystems which an individual can inherit.

Would multi-generational academics, multi-generational counsellors and multi-generational artists - generate children predisposed into these various areas through epigenetic modification of the ... ... don't know.

However - it is important to develop capacity in all three and not to drive an individual who is predisposed to one ... ... out and away from the other two.
...
Alongside systematizing (science/technology), empathizing (language, social science including medicine ie human wellbeing centric), sensory (art generation/appreciation)
- balance (exercise,practical skills) needs be considered also.

In the process - we've recreated the entire academic program.

We ... ... arrive ... ... using this model.

At a model of disease which relates to the educational environment which people develop in.

To seize a reward system of making life better for one and all and not to pursue one's own agenda - would result in a balanced individual in a balanced society where individuals do not strive (for the wrong reasons) into imbalance ie molecular expertise whether it be the obsessed artist, counsellor, mathematician or programmer.

The goal has to be to do something that's worthwhile for other people and not to take the opposite route of pursuit of personal expertise at the expense of other people.

-*-

To seize a reward system of making life better for one and all and not to pursue one's own agenda

The problem with our educational/workplace assignments - is that people are not becoming intinsically better through their education and working
- people are being forced and are growing addicted to money to propel motivation.

Addictive reward system - choice - Individual/collective betterment reward system

^ The fundamental choice where current society eliminates the choice by pushing people to the <- right.

As a consequence we don't develop appropriately and all diseases arise through a Western style of education which preaches the wrong motivation.

SB_UK
09-28-15, 01:59 AM
As a consequence we don't develop appropriately and all diseases arise through a Western style of education which preaches the wrong motivation.What is your motvation ?

As every medic and beauty queen knows at interview.

The answer is 'to help people / make the world a better place'

- problem is -

That's not actually theirs (or anybody elses') motivation.

-*-

The core solution to all of the problems that human beings face.

You can't hold these 2 motivations
- cannot operate both at the expense of and to the benefit of people simultaneously.

All downstream problems rationalise if the issue of motivation is corrected by instating a novel global social environmental infrastructure of VOLUNTARYISM.

SB_UK
09-28-15, 08:45 AM
Lunacie - on autism - not under-empathy but over-empathy and incapacity to handle incoming information stream. ... ... the pain of sensory overload.

see Markram's [whoops - hyperfunctional] cortical micro-circuits... ... in his intense world theory

A new open-access study shows that social and sensory overstimulation drives autistic behaviors and supports the unconventional view that the autistic brain is actually hyper-functional. (http://www.kurzweilai.net/autistic-brain-is-hyper-functional-needs-predictable-paced-environments-study-finds) Evolution (ketone body metabolism) through lifestyle alongside learning [broad sense] ie improvement through repetition ->- drive ->- neural network rearrangement towards increasing personal quality.

We're a hair-breadth away from generating ketones via melanin-mediated EM conversion - analogous to chlorophyll in the plant kingdom; so sure - it closes the story of genomic baton handed to connectome.

Insulin/IGF-1 via blood glucose/glutamate represents anabolism at the genomic/physical body level.

But human beings are (even though we appear to fail to realise it) - all about quality.
Experiencing subtleties.

Learning (broad sense) to recognize subtlety.

In opposition lies the standard addicting stimulants/stimulations on the body which are brash in nature - from 'assault' food to popular music to pop art to extreme rides in funfairs to chilling horror movies ... ... ... brash experiences without any subtlety to match.

There are of course 'quality' analogues of food, music, art ... ... which makes it inappropriate to suggest that any of these types are bad; they're neither bad nor good - it's how we use them (towards personal improvement) which defines their utility.

As ever - 2 directions we may travel.

One direction defined by Homer (quality) (better Lisa)
and the
Other direction defined by Mo Sizlak (addiction) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MzvdVHfuXw

SB_UK
09-28-15, 09:03 AM
So the core idea would be a sliding scale between the:

pro-insulin/IGF-1 anabolic factors (dietary) and fat (ketone body metabolism)

Growth (mitosis) and Rearrangement (aerobic respiration)
or
Genome and Connectome development

- are two models which human beings require - connectome taking over from genome in the human life-cycle.

Genome flexes its muscles in growth, development, expansion.
Connectome flexes its muscles in neural network formation, rearrangement.

Genome has an associated reward system - if you've ever seen children in a sweetie shop.
Connectome has an associated reward system - for instance the painter who lives to paint.

And we're overplaying the genome model into premature disease through forcing growth where none is required.

2 core societal problems - living a life which isn't helping the ketone body lifestyle to take over alongside poor learning which is meant to feed off a permissive metabolic milieu to support neural network rearrangement and the virtuous spiral of internal, personal quality acquisition.

So we need the higher reward system to defeat the lower reward system - requiring some understanding of what learning actually means [becoming structurally better in a manner in which regression isn't possible]

- and a mechanism of ensuring that it happens.

-*-

ie [B]Summarising in 1 word

To achieve neuro-ascetic_chic

Little Missy
09-28-15, 09:44 AM
Some autistic people find weighted blankets and vests to be calming.

There are several different kinds of squeeze machines on the market now.

Recently I saw in the news that university kids in Kansas City built a chair
and a lounger that give lovely "hugs" and have tried it on both genders.
They are called The Sensory Chair and The Sensory Lounger, and will soon
have them on the market I hope.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article5011941.html

In order for me to have dental work of any kind done I have to wear the weighted x-ray bib thing. It makes me feel safer.

SB_UK
09-28-15, 09:59 AM
I pinch myself painfully hard.

Though imagine the pristine state of teeth without exposure to starch and sugar.

SB_UK
09-28-15, 09:56 PM
In opposition lies the standard addicting stimulants/stimulations on the body which are brash in nature - from 'assault' food to popular music to pop art to extreme rides in funfairs to chilling horror movies ... ... ... brash experiences without any subtlety to match.

There are of course 'quality' analogues of food, music, art ... ... which makes it inappropriate to suggest that any of these types are bad; they're neither bad nor good - it's how we use them (towards personal improvement) which defines their utility.

As ever - 2 directions we may travel.


Human evolution (life-cycle)

To travel (nervous re-array) desire from the 'ridiculous' to the 'sublime'.

Our current society revels in 'ridiculous'.

Bottom-up thinking.

The problem with mathematics.

If we start with some basic rules - we can end up creating a Universe which is constrained by those rules - but it may have nothing to do with the 'real' world.

Bottop-up thinking defined as from simple axioms expands into a false Universe if the fundamental rules are not correct.

Mathematical analysis claims to hold certain axioms - but there's no such thing as addition, zero has no real world meaning, division can't occur in physics (unless it means dropping an emergent layer), infinity and eternity are extra-Universal concepts and not values, sum of and rate of are ... ... hmmm ... ... mathematics appears to want to be the rules of evolutionary emergence.

That's interesting - because it simultaneously explains why there's such a strong desire to study maths (a defintiion) and why the practicalities of studying maths fail (and stunningly) to satisfy.

The key concepts of maths 0,1, eternity, infinity, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponential ... ... all arise from the core mechansism of evolutionary emergence.

Now - since evolutionary emergence - is the mechanism of creator/creation.

And if maths gains its grip on us through insight into the mechanism of evolutionary emergence - then what we observe is - if we're not careful the conflation of the individual with mathematical mind with the evolutionary creative principle.

And to bring all of that (what all of that means) into the real world:

Never found a miracle of S/T/E/M which didn't turn from a blessing into a curse.

The mind of creative principle in the world of mathematics, and we see this in science also ... ... never to confuse insight into the mathematical basis / scientific basis of reality - with being responsible for the mathematical basis / scientific basis of reality.

Investigative researchers and not (at least from the perspective of the creative/generative principle underlying reality) responsible for it.

However the story complicates - since we are its expression - we can increase personal quality of we pursue the evolutionary program by building personal quality.

-*-

The problem with bottom-up thinking is that it absolutely needs to be constrained by top-down thinking.

So - the idea that each emergent layer begins from novel emergent properties which scale to complete an abstraction layer.

Layers of an onion - shaped like a butterfly in phenomenological reality - or a Boy's Surface - orthogonal to the 2 wings of the butterfly - the butterfly representing duality and the third component representing time (social synchronizing principle) -
- and the layers simply tend upwards.

As each subsequent layer is put onto the Boy's Surface / butterfly - we develop an integrated structure in which the informational entropy leaps by ^2 ... ... which is not possible within an abastraciton layer - where simple additive relations occur.

But why ?
Because that's how it works.

When will it end ?
As long as the cycle continues (is helped to continue) - there's no mechanism for it to end; we can (and many times over) still destroy ourselves courtesy of our affinity for weapons of mass destruction.

But how can it continue ... ... we're approaching the pinnacle of what is possible ?
Well that's the thing - could Alfie Australopithicus imagine life as Homer Homo - from emergence towards cusp of subsequent emergent event do we develop intuition into the immediately subsequent event - how can we see what around the next but one corner, when we can just about hear what is around the next ?

What is around the next corner ?
We shouldn't need to eat to survive - we really shouldn't.

The brain should become the second gut.

Homer (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-om3DHubU850/U7zvqcCF6yI/AAAAAAAABIE/lEKiQMD_z4I/s1600/fermat.png) would approve.

-*-

Botom-up and Top-down thinking

In the following shape (http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/165723221-oak-tree-silhouette-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=071O336G7cPQjIVyl%2fgXqyGGSQ%2fWHKlzOqTIdtR9bbml AZcXRcouI5NXufi%2fyyyr):

Imagine connectivity into a butterfly shape.
()
()

There is no bottom-up and top-down - there's just 1 holistic structure - at least when it's formed.

There's a 'bottom' and a 'top' - but the completed structure is one complete entity.

The human equivalent of tree should be the capacity to transduce EM (gamma radiation would be nice) into chemical energy - supporting the next phase of human evolutionary development - with the metabolic fuel (fat -> ketone bodies) which supports neural network rearrangement to quality when exposed to appropriate training - exactly as echoed in the valproic (similar to ketone body) model of autism.

SB_UK
09-28-15, 10:32 PM
We thereby realise what science generates - it generates rock solid rational faith (all information simultaneously considered) in a benign underlying creative principle.

http://youtubeonrepeat.com/watch/?v=AcY12CkEz70

That subsequent evolutionary events will occur is by definition faith - as we're discussing unprecedented events.

However - I'm describing rational faith as no no more difficult to hold than the next number (unprecedented) in the folowing exponential series:
2 4 16 ... ... is ... ... 256.

How would a mature tree survive without simultaneous bottom up and top down processes ?Roots - materialism - material or chemical world, Crown - informational or EM worldwhat's the importance of water ? EM to electrical conversion melanin does this into potential difference via ionic gradients separated by semi-permeable membranes generating chemical energy --> mitochondrial unitExponentially increasing informational entropy in the manifest Universe - reality must (blossom !) become ever more intricate ... ... which is handy (surprise surprise !) - because that's exactly (oh the boredom otherwise) - what we want.

From which we separate off the hard, cold, objective viewpoint of science and see it as an actual human need - towards self-assembly of personal model of understanding of reality/context towards our own separation from the illusion (the reward system) of material reality - driving us from the primitive (material world centric) reward system into the higher (species creative, generatve principle) reeward system of individual/quality definition.

-*-

Bottom-up -> the birth of logic
Top-down -> consistency
with the things that house the model of understanding
people.

For people to demonstrate logical consistency with their own wellbeing would be the sign of a species operating under a 'complete' mind.

The species (as defined in modern history class) characterized by 'incomplete mind' fight one another for nothing of any worth.

My sole problem though is that this entire story does not balance unless we've a growth to quality transition of human beings generating their own energy via the animal kingdom's pigment (melanin) of note.

Interesting the amount of wars that colour of skin has resulted in - only (we really should be making this observation soon) - for us to discover it's a key evolutinary attribute.

That's primitive human beings with incomplete minds (without collaborative reward system) for you.

mildadhd
09-28-15, 10:42 PM
Is it possible for some basic macro life cycle to exist causing conditions, that result in us evolving back into our basic evolutionary ancestors?

(Then evolve back, as we cycle back around to this zone?)



P

SB_UK
09-28-15, 11:09 PM
Bottom up and Top down thinking
If you take your toys out to play - best be sure you put them back so you know where they are, they're intact and no pieces are missing ... ... for the next time you come to play.
And so we can give them to future generations of children when they no longer fit[children won't want to hear the last bit (don't want to share)].

^^ Adults fail to heed the advice they give to children as adults spend their lives creating junk everywhere.

1
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Debris-GEO1280.jpg/450px-Debris-GEO1280.jpg)2
(http://coastalcare.org/wp-content/images/issues/pollution/plastic/Boat-sea-plastic-krichim.jpg)3 (http://www.disneybymark.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/shanghai-1.jpg)

Man pollutes the air, the seas and space ... ... not even getting into or onto under and overground landfills.

We are special (not haha)... ...

Human beings are dirty.

mildadhd
09-28-15, 11:12 PM
I was wondering about a basic cell (biology), what were the basics required for the first cell to exist.

Question 3: Where Did the First Living Cell Come From?

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/evolution11.htm




P

SB_UK
09-28-15, 11:18 PM
Is it possible for some basic macro life cycle to exist causing conditions, that result in us evolving back into our basic evolutionary ancestors?

(Then evolve back, as we cycle back around to this zone?)

P


A cyclical process.
Each turn of the wheel lands us back 'in the same basic place' - only (and each time) better
- after a period of learning preceding 'better'.

SB_UK
09-28-15, 11:36 PM
Question 3: Where Did the First Living Cell Come From?

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/evolution11.htm

P

Cyanobacterial harnessing of sunlight via chloroplast to convert water into chemical energy - which is then used to drive the engines of microbial physiology.

Common progenitor -> plant, bacteria, animal [eukaryote] (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Haeckel_arbol_bn.png/800px-Haeckel_arbol_bn.png)

wikiP/cyanobacteria

While contemporary cyanobacteria are linked to the plant kingdom as descendants of the endosymbiotic progenitor of the chloroplast, there are several features which are unique to this group. (At the same time, a majority of features are remarkably conserved among the plants, cyanobacteria, and algal They are often called blue-green algae (but some consider that name a misnomer, as cyanobacteria are prokaryotic and algae should be eukaryotic. oxygenic phototrophs).

Common progenitor -> plant, bacteria, animal [eukaryote] (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Haeckel_arbol_bn.png/800px-Haeckel_arbol_bn.png)

Cyanobacteria -> plants, bacteria, animal [eukaryote]

-*-

Simply the creative principle transferring itself from the world of physics (electromagnetic spectrum) into the world of chemistry (pH spectrum).

Noting though - that there's a beginning and an end to the EM and pH spectra.

mildadhd
09-28-15, 11:36 PM
A cyclical process.
Each turn of the wheel lands us back 'in the same basic place' - only (and each time) better
- after a period of learning preceding 'better'.

I wonder if there are types of life, that can survive outside the cycle of the "Circumstellar habitable zone"? (Not really familiar with these topics)

(Does earth ever leave this zone?)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstellar_habitable_zone



P

mildadhd
09-28-15, 11:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p79C2O3E9n0




P

SB_UK
09-29-15, 12:29 AM
I wonder if there are types of life, that can survive outside the cycle of the "Circumstellar habitable zone"? (Not really familiar with these topics)

(Does earth ever leave this zone?)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstellar_habitable_zone

P

The habitable zone is also called the Goldilocks zone, a metaphor of the children's fairy tale (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_tale) of Goldilocks and the Three Bears (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldilocks_and_the_Three_Bears), in which a little girl chooses from sets of three items, ignoring the ones that are too extreme (large or small, hot or cold, etc.), and settling on the one in the middle, which is "just right".Balance (homeostasis) built in fromthe ground up.

distress <- eustress -> distress


[1] atmosphere / atmospheric gas retention
[2] adequate light
[3] water

[1] gas + [3] water -> [4] dissoved gas
www.sciencemag.org/content/161/3838/289.long (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/161/3838/289.long)
Partial-pressure gradients of dissolved gases in the tissues of animals and man should cause flows of water along osmotic ... ...given a semi-permeable membrane - [5] lipid [hydrophobic] bilayer.

Water wheels. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Overshot_water_wheel_schematic.svg/220px-Overshot_water_wheel_schematic.svg.png)

-*-

Light -> electron <- male archetype o-> --->--- reduction (is gain of electrons)
+.....................|- underlying material [chemistry] world duality
Water -> proton <- female archetype o+ --->--- oxidation (is loss of electrons)

SB_UK
09-29-15, 01:01 AM
So -
water
light
inorganic chemicals

Inorganic chemicals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova_nucleosynthesis


Supernova nucleosynthesis is a theory of the production of many different chemical elements
Those fusion reactions create the elements silicon, sulfur, chlorine, argon, sodium, potassium, calcium, scandium, titanium and iron peak elements: vanadium, chromium, manganese, iron, cobalt, and nickel.
These are called "primary elements", in that they can be fused from pure hydrogen and helium in massive stars. So - the habitable zone consisting of a collection of evolved inorganic chemicals in a Universal environment where light access and water presence are felt.

Is a seed ?
Panspermia
Carbonaceous Chondrite needed.

Prefer the idea of evolution occurring in a permissive environment featuring water, inorganic chemicals and light.

Don't like the idea of having to produce some single life generating seed which populates the Universe with the seeds of life.

Just the idea of evolution occurring in appropriately balanced environments.

-*-


Waiting for a stray seed to hit a receptive planet doesn't feel elegant.

Life should spring out in appropriate environments - if it can (ie if the environment is conducive).

Thinking seeds falling on barren land fail.

-*-

But what if this planet is the seed ?
That's an interesting idea.

Perhaps it's best to make life as good as it can possibly be here, and see what happens - rather than planning an escape mission to an undoubtedly unpleasant tin can in some horribly cold part of the cosms.

SB_UK
09-29-15, 01:12 AM
But what if this planet is the seed ?
That's an interesting idea.



Is a seed ?
Panspermia
Carbonaceous Chondrite needed.


wikiP/panspermia
In an Origins Symposium presentation on April 7, 2009, physicist Stephen Hawking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking) stated his opinion about what humans may find when venturing into space, such as the possibility of alien life through the theory of panspermia: "Life could spread from planet to planet or from stellar system to stellar system, carried on meteors."[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia#cite_note-Stephen_Hawking-26)Planet Earth as the fountain of life ?

It's a nice idea - as long as we ensure that we seed a garden and not a Universal sewage system with pipes clogged from nonsense.

Does initial emergence spread or spontaneously occur elsewhere ?

Would informational entropy benefit from having multiple life-containing worlds ?

Clonality is the enemy of Informational entropy.

Do we need life on other planets to continue our own evolutionary path towards increasing informational complexity within the neural networks within our head ?
We don't need them - but they wouldn't be inconsistent with increasing personal quality.

Human beings want unimaginably better (as does the evolutionary mechanism) and not more and more of the same.

Human beings are great at producing dull homogeneity - mostly thanks to economics and the need to make money.

Placing creativity into a strait-jacket and forcing minds into a life of servitude filling and filing forms of no consequence at all.

SB_UK
09-29-15, 01:28 AM
SEEK and PLAY

To search for, acquire and to enjoy cerebral/cerebellar quality.

sensori-cerebral <- male archetype [spatial dimension 1]
........................cerebellar (articulation) - [time signal synchrony]
motor-cerebral <- female archetype [spatial dimension 2]

That's our (higher, properly human) paradigm.

SB_UK
09-29-15, 01:56 AM
"Bottom Up Thinking" (Temple Grandin)

So -

Why did Temple Grandin have insight into how to eliminate animal suffering ?
Because autism forces the autistic individual (painful over-sensitivity) into personal insight into stress-relief mechanisms - which Temple Grandin then superimposed over onto animal husbandry.

Life with sensitivity/hypersensitivity in an insensitive world becomes an exercise in 'taking cover'.

The issue though with bottom up thinking - is that top down would make the point that we shouldn't be leading animals into slaughter ... ... for food ... ... in the absence of any scientific evidence that human beings need dead animals to survive.

SB_UK
09-29-15, 02:23 AM
"Bottom Up Thinking" (Temple Grandin)

[1] Naturally connects to Top down thinking.
[2] Unidirectional communication naturally becomes
[3] Bi-directional communication

In all examples above - bidirectional communication may be considered the end-effect of emergent structure formation eg tree where canopy down and roots up communication occurs in order to allow the tree to exist.

In standard human communication - we often see
[4] Unidirectional communication within hierarchical context eg 'prime' minister to people
[5] Species-wide bi-directional communication can only occur without hierarchical context.

What is unidirectional communication ? Speaking at somebody
What is bidirectional communication ? Speaking with somebody

Bidirectionality of communication is definitely on the cards ?

What does that mean ?
Bidirectionality of communication can only occur if we bear the same definition of words.

Definition of words ?
Must relate to the structure of mind giving definition to words.

So ?
A shared infrastructure of mind giving peole the capacity for bi-directionality of communication.

So - people will be able to communicate.

About what ?
Perhaps - what is required is simply an understanding (trust) of others - so individuals can allow others to pursue individual/collective quality without fearing them.

If people understand the motivations of others (through speaking the same language through possession of the same template structure of mind) - there'll be trust - which is, I guess, required in a social species - for a social species to operate functionally, collaboratively, without enforcement by any hierarchical power structure.