View Full Version : Non-ADD Partner Board and different perspectives


VeryTired
09-29-15, 02:22 PM
Hi, All--

Recently there has been a lot of meta-discussion around ADDF, by which I mean discussion about our discussions. I find this very interesting, and very valuable. It's made me think a lot, and it makes me want to start this thread, specifically about ADDF discussions of and for non-ADHD partners of people with ADHD.

This is kind of long, because I want to speak about many different observations I've made and conclusions I reached during a long and valuable time here at the Forums. (I hope I am using the BOLD function correctly--I tried to make headers fro paragraphs so this is easier to follow.) I am sure many people will think differently than I do about these points, and I look forward to reading their opinions.

Insiders/Outsiders
ADDF is primarily a place by and for and about people with ADHD. That's why I spend so much time here, because it's very important to me to learn more about a disorder that dramatically effects my partner's life. It's not always easy or possible for him to explain to me what it's like to be him. Sometimes he is just plain sick of talking about ADHD when I am struggling hardest to understand it. But here I can learn from the collective wisdom of hundreds of other people. I respect and value that opportunity, and I try to express my appreciation for it often. (Thanks, everybody!) I admire so much the self-awareness of many regular posters at ADDF, who see themselves so clearly and share their experiences so generously. But I think some non-ADHD posters here aren't thinking about that resource, because they are panicking about urgent problems.

What Brings a Non-ADHD person to ADDF and the Non-ADD Partner board
I think a lot of non-ADHD partners of people with ADHD only find their way here when they are at the end of their ropes, and really desperate. If everything is going great in your relationship, you aren't likely to seek out a discussion forum about your partner's disability! One thing that can easily happen in a relationship in a couple only one of whom has ADHD is that huge pressures build up for the non-ADHD partner. This is pretty common, and it can be terrifying and really hard.

It Can Be very Scary and Tough to Cope with Someone Else's ADHD
When non-ADHD people come to ADDF in desperation and fear and confusion, it's not surprising if they vent in ways that don't feel appropriate to everyone here. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's not surprising. And I would like to share that in the past few months, I have heard via PM from several non-ADHD people that they were scared away from participating in ADDF because they felt like they were being bullied by people with ADHD--who, after all, are in the majority here. I am sorry those people didn't feel safe here, because they are missing out on all the valuable opportunities to learn. But in each case, I could really see why they felt they couldn't come back. And I happen to think ADDF would be even better with their voices represented.

What Diversity Means Here
Minority and divergent points of view always have special value, simply because they are less common. At ADDF, people who don't have ADHD can certainly contribute points of view that might now otherwise be available here. Notice that when I post here, I always say "people with ADHD" "non-ADHD people" and so on. I don't use the expression "NT." That stands for neuro-typical, and many people here use it as a shorthand for 'someone who doesn't have ADHD.' But think about it. Maybe a person who does not have ADHD does have depression, anxiety, OCD, bipolar disorder, PTSD and dyslexia. Or even just a few of those. How NT is that person, really? What norm are we assuming exists?

Another thing I'd like to say is that just as not all people with ADHD are the same as each other, all people without ADHD are not the same either. It's a much bigger group, and I would guess non-ADHD-er are even less alike than people with ADHD are. That sounds kind of obvious, but I think we don't always keep it in mind here.

Responding to Others Based on One's Prior Experience
I think I understand how important it is to many people with ADHD here to protect and defend themselves (and others whom they feel are vulnerable) from cruelty or insensitivity from non-ADHD partners or family. That seems important to me, too. But I am also aware that one of the cruelest things about ADHD, especially untreated ADHD, is that it can in some situations lead to the person with ADHD being dangerous, inconsiderate, harmful, destructive or unfair to his or her partner and family. I think sometimes non-ADHD posters here are in such situations, and are in need of compassion and guidance even if they have mistaken ideas or are expressing negative emotions.

The Importance of the Kindness of Strangers
My guess is that many new members of ADDF who post on the Non-ADD Partner board are assuming that it is a space for them, about them, and a resource for their own help. And probably most of us can agree that it is that--but to someone new, it may not immediately be apparent that this safe space for the non-ADHD partner is a small island within a large sea of the concerns, needs and perspectives of people who have ADHD. People usually come to a support forum looking for some form of comfort and advice. If they have bad or dangerous ideas, or are seriously mistaken, they may need to corrected and educated, but in my opinion, education and correction are most likely to happen successfully in a context of support, warmth, welcome, encouragement.

I have often been amazed by the kindness I have received here (from people who have ADHD) when I have been most upset with my partner and his ADHD--I have been blessed by their wisdom and good will even when I have been unreasonable, in the wrong, or making big mistakes. I think that in general, people who have been hurt, or have faced challenges often have more wisdom, more tolerance, more generosity than those who have not. And in general, I would say that members of this forum who have ADHD typically display far greater than usual tolerance and good will than the public at large. That's why when I do read a post here about how awful all "NT"s are, for instance, I don't get upset. But I can also understand how someone else, who hasn't yet received the kindness and good will I have here, would be hurt and wouldn't return.

Almost Done!
My last thought about all this is that the Non-ADD Partner board of ADDF is kind of an unusual part of the larger Forums. It attracts posters who may not be as active in other areas of ADDF, and whose experiences may be quite distinct from those of the majority of ADDF members. So maybe it's not surprising if discussions here often take a different form than elsewhere in ADDF.

Abi
09-29-15, 02:31 PM
tl dr?

BellaVita
09-29-15, 03:56 PM
Thank you for the well-written and thoughtful post, VeryTired!!

I guess I have a few comments. :)

It's weird, and sad, that some people have been scared away from fearing getting bullied.

I personally haven't been able to tell that there has been bullying to the non-ADHD partners here, and I will explain why this might be the case.

I think one huge difference between ADHD'ers and non-ADHD partners is that we don't beat around the bush, we go straight for the truth, can be rather blunt, and don't dress up our sentences with fancy words and sugar coat something that needs to be said.

Thing is, we don't know how to do it.

At least I don't.

I think this often gets mistaken as mean, I can assume it's totally unfamiliar to an NT.

You all are great at saying things in a way that is super cautious and polite and sweet-sounding.

That is more difficult for us, being impulsive and no time to focus on ways to make the delivery of what we're saying sound pretty.

That's why when I do read a post here about how awful all "NT"s are, for instance, I don't get upset. But I can also understand how someone else, who hasn't yet received the kindness and good will I have here, would be hurt and wouldn't return.

Thankfully, I haven't seen many of those posts here lately. Not for a long time, at least.

I admit I have in the past said some pretty harsh things about NTs.

I am attempting to be more open-minded about them, and realize that not all NTs are bullies and uncaring.

I think that the reason many ADHD'ers have a negative view of NTs is because the people they got bullied by in life and hurt and criticized and ridiculed - were NTs.

Imagine that you *only* met mean ADHD'ers your entire life, that for years all they did is tear you down and make you feel worthless, that when you thought of an ADHD'er you associated them with "oh my, that's the type that has always bullied me."

I'm not saying that the members here have only met mean NTs, but for some of us who grew up in certain environments that *was* the main type of "NT" we encountered.

I believe that is why many ADHD'ers have made a negative judgment about NTs.

I hope we can continue to see the light as we meet more and more kind NTs.

Luvmybully - You in particular have been one of the kindest, most understanding, thoughtful NTs I have met. The way you understand ADHD, are compassionate towards your husband, and always stick up for him and other ADHD'ers here really touches my heart. You have really been a hope for humanity, for me. And honestly a good example of how kind and caring neurotypicals can be. :)

acdc01
09-29-15, 06:04 PM
I personally haven't been able to tell that there has been bullying to the non-ADHD partners here, and I will explain why this might be the case.

If people are feeling bullied and/or intimidated Bellavita, they are feeling bullied/intimidated.

It's similar to when an ADHDer tells her husband that he's making her feel anxiety. It's how she feels and no matter what her husbands intentions were or he doesn't think he's doing anything that should cause anxiety - it's how she feels and the non-ADHD husband should respect that and try a different approach.

When non-ADHDers tell us we are intimidating them, we should respect that and try a different approach as well.

And I know ADHDers are often more direct. But we can actually learn to write in less accusatory, less intimidating ways. Our ADHD doesn't actually prevent us from learning this. There's many techniques that can be applied.

BellaVita
09-29-15, 06:06 PM
If people are feeling bullied and/or intimidated Bellavita, they are feeling bullied/intimidated.

It's similar to when an ADHDer tells her husband that he's making her feel anxiety. It's how she feels and no matter what her husbands intentions were or he doesn't think he's doing anything that should cause anxiety - it's how she feels and the non-ADHD husband should respect that and try a different approach.

When non-ADHDers tell us we are intimidating them, we should respect that and try a different approach as well.

And I know ADHDers are often more direct. But we can actually learn to write in less accusatory, less intimidating ways. Our ADHD doesn't actually prevent us from learning this. There's many techniques that can be applied.

Did you read the rest of my post?

I wasn't saying they weren't feeling that way.

acdc01
09-29-15, 07:28 PM
Did you read the rest of my post?

I wasn't saying they weren't feeling that way.

I'm sorry Bellavita. I actually didn't see the second half of your post. I usually use a laptop to read but am using my tiny phone screen right now. Guess that's a mistake.

So you do acknowledge that there is a problem and that we should try our best to fix it. Thank you. I'm glad that you see it too.

I don't get the impression that others are aware of the problem nor do they see a need for improvement. Am I wrong about this? .

Acknowledging a problem is the 1st step to fixing it so I do hope that I'm wrong.

BellaVita
09-29-15, 07:36 PM
I'm sorry Bellavita. I actually didn't see the second half of your post. I usually use a laptop to read but am using my tiny phone screen right now. Guess that's a mistake.

So you do acknowledge that there is a problem and that we should try our best to fix it. Thank you. I'm glad that you see it too.

I don't get the impression that others are aware of the problem nor do they see a need for improvement. Am I wrong about this? .

What problem are you referring to? I am confused by your response.

I wasn't trying to talk about a problem in my post, but I was responding to VeryTired's very well-articulated points.

acdc01
09-29-15, 08:13 PM
What problem are you referring to? I am confused by your response.

I wasn't trying to talk about a problem in my post, but I was responding to VeryTired's very well-articulated points.

I meant that too many non-ADHDers are being scared off right now and that we should try to do something about that.

Lunacie
09-29-15, 08:34 PM
I meant that too many non-ADHDers are being scared off right now and that we should try to do something about that.

I'm not aware of this happening. How do you know about this?

acdc01
09-29-15, 09:14 PM
I'm not aware of this happening. How do you know about this?

Because like VeryTired, I've actually received PMs where people have specifically commented on how they were afraid to post on this subforum because of the harsh responses they've seen. I was actually quite surprised to receive the PMs as by that time I had only responded to one thread on this subforum (that I could recall anyway). But I guess they liked my responses and were open with me.

I've also seen multiple posters comment publicly on the harshness displayed on this subforum by now. And these people (both the people who PMed me and the people that I've seen post publicly about the harshness) aren't closed-minded non-ADHDers that treat their spouses terribly either. Most have been viewing this forum for ages now, some of whom I think many of you respect. There's just too many folks that feel this way for us to turn a blind eye.

And like I said earlier, if people feel this way, it doesn't matter if we think they should or not. We should just change our approach so that they stop feeling scared and bullied (the word they used).

Lunacie
09-29-15, 09:45 PM
Because like VeryTired, I've actually received PMs where people have specifically commented on how they were afraid to post on this subforum because of the harsh responses they've seen. I was actually quite surprised to receive the PMs as by that time I had only responded to one thread on this subforum (that I could recall anyway). But I guess they liked my responses and were open with me.

I've also seen multiple posters comment publicly on the harshness displayed on this subforum by now. And these people (both the people who PMed me and the people that I've seen post publicly about the harshness) aren't closed-minded non-ADHDers that treat their spouses terribly either. Most have been viewing this forum for ages now, some of whom I think many of you respect. There's just too many folks that feel this way for us to turn a blind eye.

And like I said earlier, if people feel this way, it doesn't matter if we think they should or not. We should just change our approach so that they stop feeling scared and bullied (the word they used).

All I can do is repeat that from my perspective, people who are looking for
help can find help here. People who come on like bullies may think they've
had the tables turned if we don't meekly accept them at their word because
that's their mindset ... bully or be bullied.

Like most forums, we do have a report button that anyone can click.
If people are feeling like the members here are bullying them, the best thing
to do is use that report button.

acdc01
09-29-15, 10:08 PM
All I can do is repeat that from my perspective, people who are looking for
help can find help here. People who come on like bullies may think they've
had the tables turned if we don't meekly accept them at their word because
that's their mindset ... bully or be bullied.

Like most forums, we do have a report button that anyone can click.
If people are feeling like the members here are bullying them, the best thing
to do is use that report button.

The report button alone isn't enough. Reaction time can't be quick enough all the time and there is a lot of grey which is enough to pollute the board even with the button. There's actually more that can be done Lunacie. You actually do it most of the time in that you usually try to be careful and respectful in how you respond.

I myself have seen posts where the OPs actually appeared to be good people who maybe worded things poorly and then were scared away with the number of harsh responses. They have a right to be scared Lunacie. Scared that if they phrase things just slightly wrong unintentionally that they will be attacked. How in the world can we so quickly dismiss their fears when we expect them to validate ours?

BellaVita
09-29-15, 11:06 PM
The report button alone isn't enough. Reaction time can't be quick enough all the time and there is a lot of grey which is enough to pollute the board even with the button. There's actually more that can be done Lunacie. You actually do it most of the time in that you usually try to be careful and respectful in how you respond.

I myself have seen posts where the OPs actually appeared to be good people who maybe worded things poorly and then were scared away with the number of harsh responses. They have a right to be scared Lunacie. Scared that if they phrase things just slightly wrong unintentionally that they will be attacked. How in the world can we so quickly dismiss their fears when we expect them to validate ours?

Whoah, I think your last paragraph is giving a wrong impression of our forum.

I hope members visiting this site won't see your post and think they "have a right to be scared" because they might "phrase things just slightly wrong unintentionally that they will be attacked. "

I do not see members coming straight out and attacking non-ADHD partners on a regular basis.

I don't think promoting fear is a good thing.

Could you please provide specific examples of where members are dismissing fears?

Do you think maybe you might be misunderstanding some members and their intentions?

Lunacie
09-29-15, 11:20 PM
I find it so ironic that a couple of these threads were prompted by dvd saying
that he had been emotional and apologizing for it. That he apologized seems
to have been largely ignored while some took the opportunity to chastize
anyone who ever got emotional or defensive, and prompting some of us to
become emotional and defensive. :umm1:

dvd, thank you for owning your behavior and apologizing. That is very
hard for me to do so I really appreciate it. :yes:

acdc01
09-29-15, 11:28 PM
I find it so ironic that a couple of these threads were prompted by dvd saying
that he had been emotional and apologizing for it. That he apologized seems
to have been largely ignored while some took the opportunity to chastize
anyone who ever got emotional or defensive, and prompting some of us to
become emotional and defensive. :umm1:

dvd, thank you for owning your behavior and apologizing. That is very
hard for me to do so I really appreciate it. :yes:

I gave dvdvwls a reputation point for his original post, one of maybe 4 total now that I've given ever since I've joined this board. And I did compliment him for his bravery in his original post. Many people actually did compliment him. You can see it in the thread yourself toward the beginning of the thread.

He was owning up to posts that had nothing to do with any of the subsequent discussions (those posts he was owning to had nothing to do with non-adhders. They were posts that were deleted almost immediately so you never saw them). The subsequent discussions I guess you can say are off-topic but the thread had morphed into other related discusions (i.e. repeat threads, non-adhder forums) and dvd did continue them so it seemed he wanted to discuss those topics as well. Perhaps the discussion should have been started as a whole new thread like this one here but as it had morphed into "poisons" in general, it seemed appropriate.

No one is chastising people for getting emotional and defensive. No one wants to chastize anyone at all. Non-adhders are just being scared away - this is a fact and I personally just want to figure out how to solve it.

I actually don't even think impulsive emotions is the problem here. If it was about impulse, everyone would see what they were doing and know they sounded too harsh. People don't even see it or worst yet, it appears to me like some feel justified in their harshness. To me, it's what kilted-Scotsman was talking about "projection".

Because of their suffering, they don't even see how they are projecting their past experiences onto others.

BellaVita
09-29-15, 11:38 PM
I really think there has *got* to be some sort of misunderstanding going on.

I'm just not following this.

acdc01
09-29-15, 11:49 PM
Whoah, I think your last paragraph is giving a wrong impression of our forum.

I hope members visiting this site won't see your post and think they "have a right to be scared" because they might "phrase things just slightly wrong unintentionally that they will be attacked. "

I do not see members coming straight out and attacking non-ADHD partners on a regular basis.

I don't think promoting fear is a good thing.

Could you please provide specific examples of where members are dismissing fears?

Do you think maybe you might be misunderstanding some members and their intentions?

I think I didn't word things well Bellavita. But there is no harm in admitting a problem if we also say in the same thread that we acknowledge the problem and will try to solve it. By not acknowledging their fears we are already dismissing them right now on this thread Bellavita.

Sad thing is, it seems like no matter how many people say there are too many harsh responses on this board, so many still can't hear what they are saying. I'm not sure how to solve this.

BellaVita
09-29-15, 11:56 PM
I think I didn't word things well Bellavita. But there is no harm in admitting a problem if we also say in the same thread that we acknowledge the problem and will try to solve it. By not acknowledging their fears we are already dismissing them right now on this thread Bellavita.

Sad thing is, it seems like no matter how many people say there are too many harsh responses on this board, so many still can't hear what they are saying. I'm not sure how to solve this.

Maybe some of us (myself included) don't know if saying something honestly in an attempt to help could be taken as "harsh."

I know I have said things that have hurt people growing up because I was overly-honest and didn't make my words softer.

I can have trouble with this.

But I have come a long way and work really hard, it's more obvious in real life because I use a gentle tone.

I think it is important to acknowledge their fears, I think specific examples would be helpful so we can see exactly what type of responses are causing people such fear.

A generalized "there is a problem that needs fixing!" with no examples of the problem (that are specific) won't get us very far in addressing the problem.

We have to get to the root of it.

It could be quite possible that some people are misunderstanding the direct-honesty of some forum members (like from myself), but I do know there have also been cases of flat-out insults.

I think it's *also* just as important to study and to see what lead up to the poison (coming from either the non-ADHD'er or ADHD'er), sometimes the events leading up to it can reveal a lot.

acdc01
09-30-15, 12:08 AM
THANK YOU for your last post Bellavita.

Your comment about it being important to acknowledge their fears and we have to get to the root of it is are very validating words.

I totally understand needing specific examples. It's really hard though cause singling people out is a violation of board rules and I'm afraid if I give examples, then I would be singling people out.

It's really late right now so I should be getting ready for bed. Let me think about examples and I'll respond more later. Maybe others have some ideas.

BellaVita
09-30-15, 12:16 AM
THANK YOU for your last post Bellavita.

Your comment about it being important to acknowledge their fears and we have to get to the root of it is are very validating words.

I totally understand needing specific examples. It's really hard though cause singling people out is a violation of board rules and I'm afraid if I give examples, then I would be singling people out.

It's really late right now so I should be getting ready for bed. Let me think about examples and I'll respond more later. Maybe others have some ideas.

I'm glad it helped in some way.

I do think getting to the root of the problem is important, because even though the problem is to me unclear, other people have been expressing fears.

I hope it's okay for me to express that I myself am experiencing some fear, because I do not see an actual OVERALL problem and I don't want to be perceived as bad/uncaring because of that.

I think one way to get the forum to a better place is to listen to every point of view.

I do not think there is necessarily a right or wrong/black and white answer for all of this, my guess, the results will turn out to be in the grey area and be mixed.

Not sure if that makes sense.

Every person acts the way they do for a reason, and it is important to discover those reasons.

I also hope all involved will see that everything has two sides - and the stuff I listed in my first post on this thread really could be contributing a lot to the problem that you speak of.

I'm not exactly sure if it will be fixable, no one knows that, and I'm not sure what needs to change.

I just think getting ALL ideas out there and that the viewpoints be made clear is important.

sarahsweets
09-30-15, 05:15 AM
How come this problem is somehow limited to only being a problem for the nonadhd partner subforum? What I mean is, when I was a new member and tried to get involved in the science section I was chewed up and spit out. I was made to feel like what I had to say wasnt important because I wasnt an expert. I was dismissed, made to feel like an inferior and ignored. I didnt leave the forum because of it. I found other sections that I could ask my questions and participate in. The same thing goes on now. I do not participate in that section nor the theories section because there are certain members that make it impossible for me to say anything. I just choose not to try anymore. Now, I am not saying that those who feel persecuted in the non adhd partner section should just suck it up and move on, but I am saying that they are not the only ones to have experienced being ganged up on, derailed or hijacked.

VeryTired
09-30-15, 07:54 AM
Sarah--

You may be right that similar situations exist in relation to other boards at ADDF--good point. This thread was just about a specific aspect of such problems, in one place.

acdc01--

I had exactly the same thought you did about how what kilted scotsman explained is projection is happening a lot. That seems to me to cover much of what has been difficult lately.

Bella--

Of course emotional vulnerabilities are in play here. But they may exist on both sides of the exchanges between people with ADHD and people who do not have ADHD. I myself am less concerned about harshness or directness in how people post than about the frequent presumption that the point of view of people with ADHD is the only one, or the most important one. That can easily occur here in a community which is primarily by, for and about people with ADHD, but since ADDF is also open (particularly on the Non-ADD Partner board) to non-ADHD people, it's good to recognize their points of view as well. Sometimes someone's ADHD causes problems for other people who may not themselves have ADHD. That's a relevant topic for discussion here, in my opinion, as well as the difficulties ADHD causes to the people who experience it themselves directly, and the ways people with ADHD can suffer from the actions of people who do not have ADHD.

sarahsweets
09-30-15, 10:17 AM
I tell you what concerns me. If its true that alot of non-adhd partners sent PM's to people about how they were leaving and felt bullied, I have to assume they also felt bullied or scared of the mods? I guess what I mean is, they were SO absolutely scared and bullied that they didnt even feel safe sharing that or approaching a mod. If that is indeed the case we have very serious problem. Either some of us are such bullies that we rule the forum, or the mods are so scary a new person couldnt bring themselves to pm one. I mean, without anymore details, what can I assume? This is what makes me wonder if the problem isnt being explained as well as it could, or its being inflated to make a hard point. I am not saying that I am guiltless because no matter what I say or how I say it, I cant control or invalidate what someone else feels.

Lunacie
09-30-15, 10:36 AM
I gave dvdvwls a reputation point for his original post, one of maybe 4 total now that I've given ever since I've joined this board. And I did compliment him for his bravery in his original post. Many people actually did compliment him. You can see it in the thread yourself toward the beginning of the thread.

He was owning up to posts that had nothing to do with any of the subsequent discussions (those posts he was owning to had nothing to do with non-adhders. They were posts that were deleted almost immediately so you never saw them). The subsequent discussions I guess you can say are off-topic but the thread had morphed into other related discusions (i.e. repeat threads, non-adhder forums) and dvd did continue them so it seemed he wanted to discuss those topics as well. Perhaps the discussion should have been started as a whole new thread like this one here but as it had morphed into "poisons" in general, it seemed appropriate.

No one is chastising people for getting emotional and defensive. No one wants to chastize anyone at all. Non-adhders are just being scared away - this is a fact and I personally just want to figure out how to solve it.

I actually don't even think impulsive emotions is the problem here. If it was about impulse, everyone would see what they were doing and know they sounded too harsh. People don't even see it or worst yet, it appears to me like some feel justified in their harshness. To me, it's what kilted-Scotsman was talking about "projection".

Because of their suffering, they don't even see how they are projecting their past experiences onto others.


When non-adhd partners say they feel bullied or intimidated, you believe them.

But when I say some of these posts have felt chastizing to me, you invalidate
that feeling. :confused:



What seems to you to be "harsh" may seem "blunt" to others.

Sometimes I think it's necessary to be blunt when the other person seems
to be refusing to consider what's being shared with them.

To those persons what was said may also seem harsh because of their own
projection of feelings. So they complain that they're being bullied and scared,
when no one wants to be a bully or scare people away from the forum. Eh?


Now that I've read the rest of the responses, it looks like Bella made the same point. ;)

VeryTired
09-30-15, 11:10 AM
Sarah--

I think in the case of the people who were PM-ing about feeling intimidated, they were new enough to ADDF that they had'n't quite figured out what role the moderators play ... but I also think they just had the feeling that they weren't welcome here at all, so appealing to the folks in charge maybe didn't occur to them.

But I really don't think blunt speech was really the issue for them. You happen to be a great example of someone who is extremely direct in what you say--you normally come right out with your opinions!--and I don't think your posts are ever the sort of thing that are ever intimidating. I think you are very welcoming, open, fair, sensitive and supportive.

I could be wrong here, but I think many non-ADHD people using the Non-ADD Partner Support board come here in hope that they can address their feelings, fears, confusions, and problems from the point of view of their own experiences, rather than primarily in relation to those of their partners. I know that's often been true of me--and that I have in fact received wonderful support and response from ADDF members. But some people looking for support for their experiences here feel as if they are being told that their experiences don't matter.

In ordinary life, people with ADHD often feel marginalized, in the minority, and disadvantaged. But in this community at ADDF, people with ADHD are in the majority, are at the center of the discussion universe, and have power and authority. I think this may relate to what has scared some people away.

Lunacie
09-30-15, 11:21 AM
Sarah--

I think in the case of the people who were PM-ing about feeling intimidated, they were new enough to ADDF that they had'n't quite figured out what role the moderators play ... but I also think they just had the feeling that they weren't welcome here at all, so appealing to the folks in charge maybe didn't occur to them.

But I really don't think blunt speech was really the issue for them. You happen to be a great example of someone who is extremely direct in what you say--you normally come right out with your opinions!--and I don't think your posts are ever the sort of thing that are ever intimidating. I think you are very welcoming, open, fair, sensitive and supportive.

I could be wrong here, but I think many non-ADHD people using the Non-ADD Partner Support board come here in hope that they can address their feelings, fears, confusions, and problems from the point of view of their own experiences, rather than primarily in relation to those of their partners. I know that's often been true of me--and that I have in fact received wonderful support and response from ADDF members. But some people looking for support for their experiences here feel as if they are being told that their experiences don't matter.

In ordinary life, people with ADHD often feel marginalized, in the minority, and disadvantaged. But in this community at ADDF, people with ADHD are in the majority, are at the center of the discussion universe, and have power and authority. I think this may relate to what has scared some people away.

I don't see those with adhd as having power or authority. What we have is
support because we understand the difficulties we all face. And we have each
other's backs when non-adhd partners seem to be blaming us instead of
trying to learn and understand. Most of us have had that attitude of blame
turned on us, quite unfairly. Of course we're prickly about it.

When people are looking to learn and understand, we are quick to help. But
when they blame, we support the one who is like us. Sorry if they find that
scary, but this is a support forum and information source for those with adhd.

Luvmybully
09-30-15, 11:44 AM
I think many non-ADHD people using the Non-ADD Partner Support board come here in hope that they can address their feelings, fears, confusions, and problems from the point of view of their own experiences, rather than primarily in relation to those of their partners.

I think this is very accurate. They come with predetermined expectations of the audience they will interact with. Only to realize that in reality, that is not the case.

But some people looking for support for their experiences here feel as if they are being told that their experiences don't matter.

There are thousands of people that regularly view these forums, members and non-members. Is this really a pervasive issue for thousands of people, or just a small handful of them?

In ordinary life, people with ADHD often feel marginalized, in the minority, and disadvantaged. But in this community at ADDF, people with ADHD are in the majority, are at the center of the discussion universe, and have power and authority. I think this may relate to what has scared some people away.

Yes, I think you are right about this also. However, I do not see this as a huge glaring problem with ADDF. People come expecting a certain group, find that this is not the place that even HAS that certain group, and do not wish to keep interacting with the group that is actually here.

Keep in mind that this WHOLE ongoing discussion over multiple threads seems to be hammering home the message to the people here with adhd: once again, yet again; you are not right. You don't act right. You don't talk to people correctly. You are, once again, making "NT" people unhappy.

Some of the people are admitting this is upsetting to them. They do not see what they should do differently. They are not deliberately attempting to be a bully, or scare people away.

It is just not possible in such a HUGE group of people to meet the needs of every single one. So, again is this really a pervasive ADDF problem? Or just a problem with a few of the people that have come and realized this is predominatley a group of people WITH adhd, and not the place to find a large gathering of non-adhd people to talk to?

Of course insults should be addressed. No one should be treated with ugliness and contempt. However, as has already been mentioned, dialogue is a 2 way thing. If someone just out of the blue gets insulted, that is one thing, but when 2 people are having a conversation and they are very heavily disagreeing with each other, to take emotion out is to take the humanness out. Not likely to happen.

Luvmybully
09-30-15, 11:50 AM
Luvmybully - You in particular have been one of the kindest, most understanding, thoughtful NTs I have met. The way you understand ADHD, are compassionate towards your husband, and always stick up for him and other ADHD'ers here really touches my heart. You have really been a hope for humanity, for me. And honestly a good example of how kind and caring neurotypicals can be. :)

Thank You Bella. Just, Thank You.

I don't think I qualify as NT, I do have my issues to deal with, but thankfully adhd is not one of them!

:grouphug:

Fuzzy12
09-30-15, 12:33 PM
Can't gather my thoughts enough to make a useful contribution. Maybe later.

VeryTired
09-30-15, 02:12 PM
Lunacie--

I know what you mean. But take my word for this, it can see very different to non-ADHD visitors to ADDF. The question really is, I suppose, whether this is a support discussion forum ONLY for those with ADHD or whether it is also for those interested in/affected by ADHD who don't have it themselves. If it's only for people who have ADHD, I shouldn't be here--and it doesn't make sense that so many people help me. But they do, and I am, and I believe that this ADDF community is admirably open and welcoming in principle, so that's OK for me to be here and normal that I receive so much support and kindness.

As I see it, ADDF is primarily for people with ADHD, but its non-ADD Partner Support board is a place that is also for, well, me, and other people in my shoes. I feel like a guest at ADDF overall, but I do think that on the Non-ADD Partner Support board, I am less a guest than I am elsewhere here. To me (and of course I could be wrong), the title of that board suggests that it's a resource for me and other people who don't have ADHD themselves but are in relationships with people who do. That is, it's a not a resource primarily for people with ADHD who have non-ADHD partners, it's what its name says.

I hope this doesn't sound like I am arguing or not respecting your point of view. But I am not sure you are understanding what I am saying about how a large, vocal community of people who are elsewhere often marginalized, disrespected and ill-treated can on their own turf become the people who hold power. ADDF lets people with ADHD assert their point of view, even though elsewhere in the world it isn't always respected as it should be. That's great, that's how this is supposed to work! But it does tend to create conditions in which other points of view aren't always recognized.

VeryTired
09-30-15, 02:15 PM
Luvmybully--

Your raise some very interesting points in your very thoughtful most recent post. I think the answer to all that is "We don't know." We don't have stats on average responses, or numbers of people involved. So the data is kind of limited and anecdotal. But once again, I don't think the issue is about insults or disagreements, I would say it's about whether or not one has a sense of a right to take part in ADDF at all.

Fuzzy12
09-30-15, 02:41 PM
I guess, also, it's unlikely that non-adhder's have any other resources out there explicitly for them. I mean, there might be boards for carers or spouses of people with disorders but I doubt there's any other place explicitly for partners of people with ADHD (and if there is I doubt it's as good as this place is).

I've sometimes felt sorry for my husband that he doesn't have a support forum like I do to talk with like minded people about what it's like to live with someone who has ADHD. None of his friends or acquaintances would understand. None of them are in the same position. I think it would good for both him and me to have someone like very tired to share his experiences and get some support, understanding and maybe even empathy. And also maybe to learn something about adhd.

I think on this forum, and even on this board for non-adhders, we are a great resource for learning about ADHD but especially on this board for non-adhders, maybe we sometimes fall short in the empathy bit. I don't think the possibility ility to educate someone about ADHD should suffer for the sake of empathy or kindness or making people feel supported and validated but I wonder if it isn't possible to do both. Maybe it's not easy and I wouldn't expect us to always achieve that (and not everyone is receptive to the idea of learning or even the support that they can get on here) but I think it would be nice if we could strive for that at least.

I doubt that the only time when we got our claws out was with that recent thread that we keep discussing(and I agree that there was some pretty objectionable stuff in that thread.). not all ADHD partners are as understanding, open and eager to learn or eager to help us at any cost as verytired or luvmybully but most of them are not abusive or complete jerks either. Most of them are just somewhere in between and most of them are upset, desperate and hurting as well.

It sucks having ADHD but it's not easy living with someone who has got ADHD either or worse loving someone with adhd. I couldn't say what sucks more but does it really matter?

Does it matter does this is the only place where we have got tthe loudest voice and are in the majority? Does this mean that we shouldn't try to avoid the majority - population-attitudes that we mind so much ourselves when we are at the receiving end of it?

I don't know, but I think if verytired who is probably one of the most understanding and patient people that I have ever come across thinks that there is a problem then there probably is. Or at least there is a possibility that there is and that we should probably discuss it and try to find a solution. And the first step to finding a solution might be to just admit that there could be a problem and that if nothing else maybe we should try to watch our own behaviour and be aware of it and how it might affect others rather than just dismissing the whole issue

dvdnvwls
09-30-15, 02:44 PM
Lunacie--

I know what you mean. But take my word for this, it can see very different to non-ADHD visitors to ADDF. The question really is, I suppose, whether this is a support discussion forum ONLY for those with ADHD or whether it is also for those interested in/affected by ADHD who don't have it themselves. If it's only for people who have ADHD, I shouldn't be here--and it doesn't make sense that so many people help me. But they do, and I am, and I believe that this ADDF community is admirably open and welcoming in principle, so that's OK for me to be here and normal that I receive so much support and kindness.

As I see it, ADDF is primarily for people with ADHD, but its non-ADD Partner Support board is a place that is also for, well, me, and other people in my shoes. I feel like a guest at ADDF overall, but I do think that on the Non-ADD Partner Support board, I am less a guest than I am elsewhere here. To me (and of course I could be wrong), the title of that board suggests that it's a resource for me and other people who don't have ADHD themselves but are in relationships with people who do. That is, it's a not a resource primarily for people with ADHD who have non-ADHD partners, it's what its name says.

I hope this doesn't sound like I am arguing or not respecting your point of view. But I am not sure you are understanding what I am saying about how a large, vocal community of people who are elsewhere often marginalized, disrespected and ill-treated can on their own turf become the people who hold power. ADDF lets people with ADHD assert their point of view, even though elsewhere in the world it isn't always respected as it should be. That's great, that's how this is supposed to work! But it does tend to create conditions in which other points of view aren't always recognized.

I'm going to be "ADHD-blunt", if that exists.

There are other points of view, and then there are other points of view.

If I have had a hand in creating conditions where [disrespect for one's spouse and unjustly treating one's spouse as a liar and a slacker when in fact they are not] is an unrecognized point of view, and where people holding that point of view feel ostracized and unwelcome, then to that extent I am proud.

Fuzzy12
09-30-15, 02:49 PM
I'm going to be "ADHD-blunt", if that exists.

There are other points of view, and then there are other points of view.

If I have had a hand in creating conditions where [disrespect for one's spouse and unjustly treating one's spouse as a liar and a slacker when in fact they are not] is an unrecognized point of view, and where people holding that point of view feel ostracized and unwelcome, then to that extent I am proud.

But if someone like verytired, who is the exact opposite of everything you described above, is questioning if non-adhders, in general, are welcome on this forum, don't you think it's worth considering that point if view.?

Lunacie
09-30-15, 03:01 PM
Lunacie--

I know what you mean. But take my word for this, it can see very different to non-ADHD visitors to ADDF. The question really is, I suppose, whether this is a support discussion forum ONLY for those with ADHD or whether it is also for those interested in/affected by ADHD who don't have it themselves. If it's only for people who have ADHD, I shouldn't be here--and it doesn't make sense that so many people help me. But they do, and I am, and I believe that this ADDF community is admirably open and welcoming in principle, so that's OK for me to be here and normal that I receive so much support and kindness.

As I see it, ADDF is primarily for people with ADHD, but its non-ADD Partner Support board is a place that is also for, well, me, and other people in my shoes. I feel like a guest at ADDF overall, but I do think that on the Non-ADD Partner Support board, I am less a guest than I am elsewhere here. To me (and of course I could be wrong), the title of that board suggests that it's a resource for me and other people who don't have ADHD themselves but are in relationships with people who do. That is, it's a not a resource primarily for people with ADHD who have non-ADHD partners, it's what its name says.

I hope this doesn't sound like I am arguing or not respecting your point of view. But I am not sure you are understanding what I am saying about how a large, vocal community of people who are elsewhere often marginalized, disrespected and ill-treated can on their own turf become the people who hold power. ADDF lets people with ADHD assert their point of view, even though elsewhere in the world it isn't always respected as it should be. That's great, that's how this is supposed to work! But it does tend to create conditions in which other points of view aren't always recognized.

I feel like I'm repeating the same thing over and over and not sure I'm being
heard or understood.

I welcome those who want to learn about adhd and understand their family
and friends who are or may be diagnosed with it. They help us understand
the complex relationship we all have with neurotypicals in our lives.

Those who just want to bad-mouth and blame their person who has adhd ...
I don't give a crap whether they feel welcome or not.

I'm willing to give everyone a chance to learn and understand. But when post
follows post follows post of the same blame game and refusal to understand,
they only get so-many chances before I stop trying to help and scoop some
of that blame back where it's coming from.

Lunacie
09-30-15, 03:05 PM
But if someone like verytired, who is the exact opposite of everything you described above, is questioning if non-adhders, in general, are welcome on this forum, don't you think it's worth considering that point if view.?

My return question is whether it may be their own fault that they don't feel
very welcome here. VeryTired has said that she did and does feel welcome.
She made a genuine effort to learn and understand. Those who make posts
that sound like "poor me ... why doesn't my adhd person just do things right
already?" may get responses that don't make them feel quite as welcome.

dvdnvwls
09-30-15, 03:07 PM
But if someone like verytired, who is the exact opposite of everything you described above, is questioning if non-adhders, in general, are welcome on this forum, don't you think it's worth considering that point if view.?

I don't have anything against "My spouse is acting very strangely, as if she's lying - and it's like she doesn't want to do anything at all. She tells me it isn't true, that things are not what they seem. What's going on here? Is she really lying?"

The kind of attitude I don't feel inclined to accept and won't make room for is "She's a liar, I know it. Now tell me how to handle these lies."

So, no, I don't think it's worth considering all points of view. There is such a thing as being wrong about something. We are not all just differing degrees of right, about every topic. I am wrong about a lot of things. This (the "My ADHD spouse is a liar" attitude) happens not to be one of the things I'm wrong about.

Luvmybully
09-30-15, 03:21 PM
Luvmybully--

Your raise some very interesting points in your very thoughtful most recent post. I think the answer to all that is "We don't know." We don't have stats on average responses, or numbers of people involved. So the data is kind of limited and anecdotal. But once again, I don't think the issue is about insults or disagreements, I would say it's about whether or not one has a sense of a right to take part in ADDF at all.

Each individual has to make up their own mind about wether or not addf is going to be a place they want to interact or not. They either like the atmosphere and discussions, or they do not.

They have choice. It is not about rights to be here, it is about acknowledging the dynamics of the community and deciding if you wish to be a part of it.

You chose to stay. I chose to stay. Neither one of us has adhd, but there IS something that keeps us here despite that. We do find helpful advice, insight, and a friendly camaraderie with some of the members.

Not everyone is going to have the same experience. There are people with adhd that do not stay around for long.

Does the forum need to change for the few individuals that do not find it to be the community they are looking for?

Fuzzy12
09-30-15, 03:23 PM
Each individual has to make up their own mind about wether or not addf is going to be a place they want to interact or not. They either like the atmosphere and discussions, or they do not.

They have choice. It is not about rights to be here, it is about acknowledging the dynamics of the community and deciding if you wish to be a part of it.

You chose to stay. I chose to stay. Neither one of us has adhd, but there IS something that keeps us here despite that. We do find helpful advice, insight, and a friendly camaraderie with some of the members.

Not everyone is going to have the same experience. There are people with adhd that do not stay around for long.

Does the forum need to change for the few individuals that do not find it to be the community they are looking for?

If it's a change for the better then why not?

Fuzzy12
09-30-15, 03:26 PM
I don't have anything against "My spouse is acting very strangely, as if she's lying - and it's like she doesn't want to do anything at all. She tells me it isn't true, that things are not what they seem. What's going on here? Is she really lying?"

The kind of attitude I don't feel inclined to accept and won't make room for is "She's a liar, I know it. Now tell me how to handle these lies."

So, no, I don't think it's worth considering all points of view. There is such a thing as being wrong about something. We are not all just differing degrees of right, about every topic. I am wrong about a lot of things. This (the "My ADHD spouse is a liar" attitude) happens not to be one of the things I'm wrong about.

But we aren't just talking about people who accuse their spouses of being liars. I could be wrong but I don't think this thread is exclusively about that recent thread, where the husband accused his ADHD wife of lying about anxiety, or taking her meds, etc.

Luvmybully
09-30-15, 03:28 PM
If it's a change for the better then why not?

"Better" for whom?

It's not better if it comes at the expense of the vast majority of the people that make up the forums.

Fuzzy12
09-30-15, 03:36 PM
My return question is whether it may be their own fault that they don't feel
very welcome here. VeryTired has said that she did and does feel welcome.
She made a genuine effort to learn and understand. Those who make posts
that sound like "poor me ... why doesn't my adhd person just do things right
already?" may get responses that don't make them feel quite as welcome.

I don't know. I guess, that really is the question. For some, maybe it is their own fault. Some maybe really just come on here to get their pre-conceived notions confirmed and maybe they really just leave when we don't confirm those pre-conceived notions but to be honest I doubt it's as simple as that. I've seen replies that have made me cringe.. Or feel sorry for the op ( not just on this board but also on other boards, like the adult diagnosis board or the parents and children section..but those are not in question here) and I wonder if we always are as fair and as helpful as we can be.

I think, it's OK if we always aren't entirely fair and helpful. I mean that can't be entirely avoided as it's difficult and it's subjective but if you are coming from a position that you (and I mean you, in the most general sense, not you personally) are always right and that you can judge who deserves what type of treatment or that you can indeed exactly read every poster and make an accurate assessment of them and their intentions, then you are precluding the possibility of this place ever becoming fairer or more helpful.

Fuzzy12
09-30-15, 03:37 PM
"Better" for whom?

It's not better if it comes at the expense of the vast majority of the people that make up the forums.

No, but why would it be at their expense?

Luvmybully
09-30-15, 03:48 PM
No, but why would it be at their expense?

This community has several thousand members and visitors, and the vast majority of them have contributed to creating the atmosphere. It would take that vast majority to drastically alter the atmosphere.

If there are only a select few that do not find this community something they want to be a part of, why would that vast majority give up the atmosphere and community they find so much comfor and support in? No matter HOW much the atmosphere is altered, there will ALWAYS BE that select few that do not find it something they want to be a part of.

Lunacie
09-30-15, 04:31 PM
I don't know. I guess, that really is the question. For some, maybe it is their own fault. Some maybe really just come on here to get their pre-conceived notions confirmed and maybe they really just leave when we don't confirm those pre-conceived notions but to be honest I doubt it's as simple as that. I've seen replies that have made me cringe.. Or feel sorry for the op ( not just on this board but also on other boards, like the adult diagnosis board or the parents and children section..but those are not in question here) and I wonder if we always are as fair and as helpful as we can be.

I think, it's OK if we always aren't entirely fair and helpful. I mean that can't be entirely avoided as it's difficult and it's subjective but if you are coming from a position that you (and I mean you, in the most general sense, not you personally) are always right and that you can judge who deserves what type of treatment or that you can indeed exactly read every poster and make an accurate assessment of them and their intentions, then you are precluding the possibility of this place ever becoming fairer or more helpful.

One more time and then I think I'll have to quit for the sake of my mental
health ...

I do believe most of us are fair and helpful until the poster repeats the same
kind of post over and over and invalidates any info or advice we give. Can
we realistically expect any more than that?

I mean, we don't usually make snap judgments, ya know? But I do think that
at some point we can make a fairly accurate assessment of whether the poster
is interested in working together with their adhd person to make changes in
the relationship ... or whether they just want the adhd person to be fixed.

sarahsweets
09-30-15, 05:29 PM
Like I said previously....this "unwelcome" attitude that these anonomyous people have chose to share with a couple of other members is not something that can be addressed without specific examples. What if the big meanie pants in question meant something entirely different? How can anyone explain what could just as easily been misinterpreted by the posters who left, without knowing all the facts?

BellaVita
09-30-15, 06:09 PM
Keep in mind that this WHOLE ongoing discussion over multiple threads seems to be hammering home the message to the people here with adhd: once again, yet again; you are not right. You don't act right. You don't talk to people correctly. You are, once again, making "NT" people unhappy.

Some of the people are admitting this is upsetting to them. They do not see what they should do differently. They are not deliberately attempting to be a bully, or scare people away.

Maybe I'll get tackled for saying this (hopefully not ;)), but since we are all sharing our feelings, I can honestly say Luvmybully got it exactly right with this quote.

I feel pressured all of the sudden to please the non-ADHD'ers, that I'm not doing good enough, and even worse feel like the whole community isn't doing enough.

But truth is, we really are doing the best we can.

I see no specific examples here, except for the lying wife thread.

Like, what exactly it is that we are saying to scare them away.

I can tell you this: ADHD'ers aren't good at hints.

I keep reading vague post after vague post, and it is just not making sense to me.

I hear a lot of fancy words and see lots of long sentences that contain no specific examples.

If this is going to get anywhere, we really need examples.

Because at this point, I can honestly say that what it sounds like is happening is ADHD'ers disagree with a non-ADHD'er, they get upset and hurt that we disagree, and then they leave because they didn't get told what they wanted to hear.

Not saying that is what is happening, just what it sounds like.

Lunacie
09-30-15, 06:45 PM
Maybe I'll get tackled for saying this (hopefully not ;)), but since we are all sharing our feelings, I can honestly say Luvmybully got it exactly right with this quote.

I feel pressured all of the sudden to please the non-ADHD'ers, that I'm not doing good enough, and even worse feel like the whole community isn't doing enough.

But truth is, we really are doing the best we can.

I see no specific examples here, except for the lying wife thread.

Like, what exactly it is that we are saying to scare them away.

I can tell you this: ADHD'ers aren't good at hints.

I keep reading vague post after vague post, and it is just not making sense to me.

I hear a lot of fancy words and see lots of long sentences that contain no specific examples.

If this is going to get anywhere, we really need examples.

Because at this point, I can honestly say that what it sounds like is happening is ADHD'ers disagree with a non-ADHD'er, they get upset and hurt that we disagree, and then they leave because they didn't get told what they wanted to hear.

Not saying that is what is happening, just what it sounds like.

Yes, that's what I've been thinking too. If they want pity because they have
to put up with our imperfections and they don't get it, they look for someone
who seems sympathetic and whine about it. I could be wrong, but that's what
it sounds like me to.

amberwillow
09-30-15, 06:51 PM
I appreciate VeryTired beginning this conversation with her well thought out post.

I feel torn in part because (as I've stated a few times) I still see myself both as the Non-ADHD Partner and the ADHD Partner due to my history. This puts me with one foot in either camp, figuratively speaking.

Sitting here, reading all of this I was trying to put myself in the mental space where I imagined reaching out for help from my first marriage, when I believed I truly was the Non-ADHD Partner. When I needed help and emotional support and a heck of a lot of education to work out how to smooth life out and help everyone in our home get their needs met better... Truth is, I don't know that I would have felt welcome either.

I take my hat off to other spouses who have had the patience to stay and learn.

Standing with the crowd, I still sometimes feel misunderstood or invisible, but that is mine to own and not the fault of anyone here.

I think the thing that hit me most though, was VeryTired's point about people without ADHD not being NTs necessarily. With so many people in every population being effected be depression or other mental issues, I think NT is a unhelpful term.

VeryTired
09-30-15, 07:18 PM
Lunacie--

Thanks so much for all your very thoughtful posts here. I feel bad that you feel not heard--I think that might mean by me, and I apologize if so. And this discussion certainly does not have to continue further if it's counter-productive for you--or anyone else, of course!

But just one last try on my part to clarify: I agree with you about how you characterize most Forum members' posts. That's really not the issue that I was originally trying to raise, however. Again, my apologies if I am being unclear. I think the issue is that many non-ADHD posters here have wanted to speak about their own experiences, and their own feelings and probems--but have been met with responses about their ADHD partner's needs, experiences, etc.

If someone is having a hard time in their role as the non-ADHD partner of someone with ADHD, starting by telling them that they are wrong and then talking about their partner's needs and experiences may not help them move to where you think they need to be. (I am not saying that you do this, Lunacie! You don't. I am saying that some non-ADHD posters here have had that experience.)

And fyi, for those who are following this, when I said I had received several PMs from people who were intimidated, I did not mean the poster whose wife was doing chores very slowly. But I don't think it really matters who the people are, it's just of interest that there were a bunch of them.

Luvmybully
09-30-15, 07:28 PM
I agree with you about how you characterize most Forum members' posts. That's really not the issue that I was originally trying to raise, however. Again, my apologies if I am being unclear. I think the issue is that many non-ADHD posters here have wanted to speak about their own experiences, and their own feelings and probems--but have been met with responses about their ADHD partner's needs, experiences, etc.

If someone is having a hard time in their role as the non-ADHD partner of someone with ADHD, starting by telling them that they are wrong and then talking about their partner's needs and experiences may not help them move to where you think they need to be. (I am not saying that you do this, Lunacie! You don't. I am saying that some non-ADHD posters here have had that experience.)



This really does clarify for me VT! Yes, I do get it now that you really ARE speaking of a very specific thing, and not just generalizing about the non-adhd spouse board.

I just do not know if someone that DOES have adhd will be able to relate. There have been non-adhd spouses- like you especially- that SAY it, in very clear terms, about how you are feeling, without ripping your partner up.

You are not the only one....and it seems like the non-adhd partners that have the fewest positive things to say about their spouses are the ones that get their feelings hurt the most.

BellaVita
09-30-15, 07:36 PM
Sometimes, I get my feelings hurt on these forums, but I just take that as a part of life (even on a support forum) and continue on.

I would never leave the forum over hurt feelings.

dvdnvwls
09-30-15, 07:39 PM
Lunacie--

Thanks so much for all your very thoughtful posts here. I feel bad that you feel not heard--I think that might mean by me, and I apologize if so. And this discussion certainly does not have to continue further if it's counter-productive for you--or anyone else, of course!

But just one last try on my part to clarify: I agree with you about how you characterize most Forum members' posts. That's really not the issue that I was originally trying to raise, however. Again, my apologies if I am being unclear. I think the issue is that many non-ADHD posters here have wanted to speak about their own experiences, and their own feelings and probems--but have been met with responses about their ADHD partner's needs, experiences, etc.

If someone is having a hard time in their role as the non-ADHD partner of someone with ADHD, starting by telling them that they are wrong and then talking about their partner's needs and experiences may not help them move to where you think they need to be. (I am not saying that you do this, Lunacie! You don't. I am saying that some non-ADHD posters here have had that experience.)

And fyi, for those who are following this, when I said I had received several PMs from people who were intimidated, I did not mean the poster whose wife was doing chores very slowly. But I don't think it really matters who the people are, it's just of interest that there were a bunch of them.

The poster whose wife was doing the chores very slowly was not intimidated. He left in a huff because his unreasonable demands were pointed out to him, and people rightly couldn't answer his insistently repetitive idiotic and demeaning questions.

People who ask idiotic and demeaning questions once, and who (when it is pointed out to them that they have done so) start to discover that things may not be just as they thought, and who have come here honestly seeking dialogue, and who are willing both to learn and to teach (that is, they are not like the offensive poster mentioned above) - I honestly cannot see a reason for them to worry, or a way for them to feel unwelcome.

If there are new people wishing to post who all just happen to know that their ADHD spouse is an irresponsible liar, and if those new people won't listen when they're shown that their own perception is faulty and not their spouse... and if those potential new people have now been scared away, thinking that their drivel won't be accepted... then... good.

Lunacie
09-30-15, 07:51 PM
Lunacie--

Thanks so much for all your very thoughtful posts here. I feel bad that you feel not heard--I think that might mean by me, and I apologize if so. And this discussion certainly does not have to continue further if it's counter-productive for you--or anyone else, of course!

But just one last try on my part to clarify: I agree with you about how you characterize most Forum members' posts. That's really not the issue that I was originally trying to raise, however. Again, my apologies if I am being unclear. I think the issue is that many non-ADHD posters here have wanted to speak about their own experiences, and their own feelings and probems--but have been met with responses about their ADHD partner's needs, experiences, etc.

If someone is having a hard time in their role as the non-ADHD partner of someone with ADHD, starting by telling them that they are wrong and then talking about their partner's needs and experiences may not help them move to where you think they need to be. (I am not saying that you do this, Lunacie! You don't. I am saying that some non-ADHD posters here have had that experience.)

And fyi, for those who are following this, when I said I had received several PMs from people who were intimidated, I did not mean the poster whose wife was doing chores very slowly. But I don't think it really matters who the people are, it's just of interest that there were a bunch of them.

Here's what it says at the header on the Non-ADD Partner Support subforum:
This is a support forum for non-ADD partners, spouses, and significant others offering feedback from both the ADD and non-ADD perspectives

We're offering feedback from the ADD perspective, which may not seem very
supportive to them because our experiences and feelings are naturally pretty
different than theirs. It may help them to understand to hear what it's like
over here on our side of the fence.

Those who don't have ADD are free to share their own feelings, experiences
and problems and may find more in common with each other than with those
of us who have ADD. But it shouldn't be surprising that we don't have a lot
in common with each other (add and non-add that is). And we shouldn't be
made to feel like we're doing it wrong because of these differences.
(just to be clear VT, you're not doing that so much but some are)

BellaVita
09-30-15, 08:11 PM
I am not understanding how us ADHD'ers providing insight from our own perspectives isn't helpful or wanted by the non-ADHD'ers.

I have trouble talking to neurotypicals in real life (well, even non-NTs) and so I talked to someone and got advice about how the NTs perceive what I say and how to adjust my actions accordingly.

I got "NT lessons" so-to-speak, and it was greatly helpful to me.

I mean, I have had a hard time managing conversations with NTs, but I knew that whining about how NTs don't understand me wasn't very helpful, so I sought advice from the NT perspective.

It was even pointed out to me what things I did that were rude - yeah it hurt a little to get told I was being rude, but it really did help me to learn that.

Seriously, learning those social rules helped me tons.

I still have huge difficulties with communicating, but I am getting somewhere.

If I decided I only wanted others who were like me to listen to me, and turned my head at any advice from the other party because it wasn't what I wanted to hear, let's just say I wouldn't have gotten very far.

acdc01
09-30-15, 08:18 PM
I think the issue is that many non-ADHD posters here have wanted to speak about their own experiences, and their own feelings and probems--but have been met with responses about their ADHD partner's needs, experiences, etc.

If someone is having a hard time in their role as the non-ADHD partner of someone with ADHD, starting by telling them that they are wrong and then talking about their partner's needs and experiences may not help them move to where you think they need to be. (I am not saying that you do this, Lunacie! You don't. I am saying that some non-ADHD posters here have had that experience.)

And fyi, for those who are following this, when I said I had received several PMs from people who were intimidated, I did not mean the poster whose wife was doing chores very slowly. But I don't think it really matters who the people are, it's just of interest that there were a bunch of them.

This really does clarify for me VT! Yes, I do get it now that you really ARE speaking of a very specific thing, and not just generalizing about the non-adhd spouse board.

I just do not know if someone that DOES have adhd will be able to relate. There have been non-adhd spouses- like you especially- that SAY it, in very clear terms, about how you are feeling, without ripping your partner up.

You are not the only one....and it seems like the non-adhd partners that have the fewest positive things to say about their spouses are the ones that get their feelings hurt the most.

Yes, what VeryTired describes here is exactly what I was trying to say. Saying things in a way that doesn't make it sound like you are accusing anyone of anything, that it is a safe place for OPs to discuss freely their concerns, and that we are primarily trying to support the OP and not only focused on helping their ADHD spouse.

I do think people with ADHD can relate to this luvmybully the way you and VeryTired do. No one wants to feel accused of anything ever whether they have ADHD or not. And I actually don't see ADHDers writing in accusatory tones usually. It's only when they're upset. I think people should always postpone responses or any conversation in general, not only on this board but in life when they are in bad moods. That's the advice we usually give to people when they are having relationship problems. It's good advice and we should practice what we preach here.

Bellavita - I did find a specific example of this very thing VeryTired described for you like I promised but I don't know how to share it on this forum without pointing a specific person out. Do you want me to make up an example or anything? I'm just not sure what to do.

Lunacie - I'm sorry I worded things poorly yet again. I just meant that I don't think people intended to chastise anyone. I didn't. I didn't want to make anyone feel like I was chastising them but I guessed I failed in that.

BellaVita
09-30-15, 09:06 PM
Thanks acdc - let me think about what to do. This has to be done in a way that it doesn't personally insult someone, but yet it is important that the example be made.

I will get back to you. :)

Lunacie
09-30-15, 09:19 PM
...

Lunacie - I'm sorry I worded things poorly yet again. I just meant that I don't think people intended to chastise anyone. I didn't. I didn't want to make anyone feel like I was chastising them but I guessed I failed in that.

And I was pointing out that we all do that. It can be difficult to communicate
with only text, when there are several people in the conversation, and we have
difficulty expressing ourselves well in the first place. We don't usually mean to
make anyone feel bullied or scared, but sometimes we word things poorly and
sometimes we. just. fail. It's not really a herd-mentality where we attack
anyone that seems different than us.

sarahsweets
10-01-15, 04:23 AM
And fyi, for those who are following this, when I said I had received several PMs from people who were intimidated, I did not mean the poster whose wife was doing chores very slowly. But I don't think it really matters who the people are, it's just of interest that there were a bunch of them.
See this is the part that really concerns me. You have received a bunch of Pm's from new people about how unwelcome they feel, and its become so bad for them they wont return to the forum? I am trying so hard to wrap my head around this one. I really wish there was a way we could get more details. Because I suspect that some of the things that they are perceiving as attacks or whatever might be overall misunderstandings about what some of us had said. I wanna say we deserve the right to "defend" ourselves but thats not possible without being provided with examples and context.

kilted_scotsman
10-01-15, 07:39 AM
Over the years I've had PM/off forum contact with a few non-ADHD partners and they have ALL said they initially found the forum an intimidating place to post. I have also been told that this subforum was quite a "negative" place for a non-ADDer.

Because of this I am pretty sure there are many non-ADHD partners who browse past the forum, read some of the responses and think better of posting..... which is everyone's loss.

One thing we can all do is think about the people browsing past and post in a way that will encourage non-ADDers to join the forum and post here.

Yes the board is ADHD centred.... but in most relationships we have there is a non-ADDer, be it in the home or at work or socially. Like it or not.... we have to fit into a non-ADHD world and the more we can learn about how non-ADDers feel in their relationships with ADDers the more we can understand how to make the small changes in our lives to make our friends and partners lives easier. ....

The problem here isn't full on abuse and bullying, though that does occasionally happen and is dealt with under existing site guidelines, but the general atmosphere.

What we are looking is an atmosphere for non-ADDer members where getting up into 3 or 4 figure posting counts becomes common.

I personally empathise with some non-ADDers who come on here, start a thread wanting to make contact with other non-ADHD partners but find their thread swamped by ADDers.... they maybe respond a couple of times at best then vanish....

How do we make this sub-forum a place where non-ADDers feel free to vent and rage about their daily battles with their partners ADHD the same way we feel comfortable about venting about our own battles?????

Maybe this is the one area of the forum where we, as ADDers really have to concentrate on fitting in to a non-ADHD world...swallow our immediate responses..... really be aware of our own ADHD impulses, and try to curb them before hitting "Post Quick Reply"......

because impulsively posting a quick reply to a non-ADDer venting their despair and rage is exactly what we shouldn't do on this sub-forum!

We already have sections of the forum with different moderating styles.... the addictions subforum for one........

Maybe the general energy on this sub-forum is that we, as ADDers, browse this subforum more than we post, we respond to direct questions from non-ADDers, we ask questions of non-ADDers...... and other than that we generally let the non-ADDers get on with it.....

A bit like the mens/womens sections....

There could be a flag non-ADDer could put in the subject line, that indicates... non-ADDers only to respond... which is enforced by mods .... ADDers who respond get their posts deleted.

stef
10-01-15, 07:55 AM
I suppose one of the reasons the subforum could seem intimidating, is that these forums in general are a safe place for us to speak freely. There are many sensitive members here - and I mean that in the GOOD way - and we write from the heart, and a new ADHD member may be pleasantly suprised by this (I know I was!) but it could seem incredibly strange and uncomfortable, to others.

Anyway if you are active here we kind of "know" each other in the first place so the various styles of expression you can find here are familiar to us in the first place.

Fuzzy12
10-01-15, 08:19 AM
One more time and then I think I'll have to quit for the sake of my mental
health ...

I do believe most of us are fair and helpful until the poster repeats the same
kind of post over and over and invalidates any info or advice we give. Can
we realistically expect any more than that?

I mean, we don't usually make snap judgments, ya know? But I do think that
at some point we can make a fairly accurate assessment of whether the poster
is interested in working together with their adhd person to make changes in
the relationship ... or whether they just want the adhd person to be fixed.

I'm really sorry lunacie if I'm making you repeat yourself and threatening your sanity.

Lunacie
10-01-15, 10:59 AM
I'm really sorry lunacie if I'm making you repeat yourself and threatening your sanity.

S'okay. My sanity has taken bigger blows than this discussion. ;)

I know my frustration comes from being accused of being judgmental of
those without adhd when all my life I've been judged by others without any
consideration of why I am the way I am.

Lunacie
10-01-15, 11:42 AM
How do we make this sub-forum a place where non-ADDers feel free to vent and rage about their daily battles with their partners ADHD the same way we feel comfortable about venting about our own battles?????

Maybe this is the one area of the forum where we, as ADDers really have to concentrate on fitting in to a non-ADHD world...swallow our immediate responses..... really be aware of our own ADHD impulses, and try to curb them before hitting "Post Quick Reply"......

because impulsively posting a quick reply to a non-ADDer venting their despair and rage is exactly what we shouldn't do on this sub-forum!


.

Maybe this isn't the best place for non-adhd partners to vent and rant?
Gina Pera has a forum where they can do that and find information as well.
But those of us with adhd have been listening to those without adhd rant
about our failings and shortcomings all our lives. We don't need more of that
here in our safe place.

We've been struggling all our lives to fit into a non-adhd world. The great
thing about this forum is that we don't have to do that here. I don't want
to have to do that here. This is where I can be me ... adhd warts and all.
This is where the square peg that is me finally fits in. This is where I don't
have to struggle and adapt to an unaccepting, unaccomodating world.

Please don't take that away from me.

VeryTired
10-01-15, 12:15 PM
Lunacie--

I really respect what you are saying here. I think you put it extremely well, and I think this is, now, what the issue is really about. If what you feel is true, then you
are right, this isn't the place for most non-ADHD partners of people with ADHD.

But ADDF comes up very prominently when one does google searches looking for help, and then you see the "Non-ADD Partner Support Board." To a lot of people, that sounds like a welcome and an offer of safe, protected space for anyone who needs help dealing with someone else's ADHD. I completely respect that the truth may be that ADDF is really only for people with ADHD. But if so, I don't think it should have the Non-ADD Partner Support board, or maybe that board should have a different name.

If ADDF CAN also be for people who don't have ADHD but need help dealing with their loved ones' ADHD, then I think the Non-ADD Partner board is a great thing. And I also hope that people with ADHD who post about the concerns on non-ADHD-er can remember that it really is possible for ADHD people to be in the majority, and that when non-ADHD-er venture among them, they may need consideration as a minority presence here.

Also, and this is important, the non-ADHD people who post here are unlikely to be the same exact non-ADHD people who in real life have hurt you and made you feel bad. I sometimes feel the suggestion is being made that all non-ADHD people are responsible for the harm done to people with ADHD in the past. That's much too heavy a responsibility to take on. I get it that people have been traumatized, but if it wasn't me who caused that trauma, it's scary and painful and confusing to feel as if I am answerable for it.

Lunacie
10-01-15, 12:32 PM
Lunacie--

I really respect what you are saying here. I think you put it extremely well, and I think this is, now, what the issue is really about. If what you feel is true, then you
are right, this isn't the place for most non-ADHD partners of people with ADHD.

But ADDF comes up very prominently when one does google searches looking for help, and then you see the "Non-ADD Partner Support Board." To a lot of people, that sounds like a welcome and an offer of safe, protected space for anyone who needs help dealing with someone else's ADHD. I completely respect that the truth may be that ADDF is really only for people with ADHD. But if so, I don't think it should have the Non-ADD Partner Support board, or maybe that board should have a different name.

If ADDF CAN also be for people who don't have ADHD but need help dealing with their loved ones' ADHD, then I think the Non-ADD Partner board is a great thing. And I also hope that people with ADHD who post about the concerns on non-ADHD-er can remember that it really is possible for ADHD people to be in the majority, and that when non-ADHD-er venture among them, they may need consideration as a minority presence here.

Also, and this is important, the non-ADHD people who post here are unlikely to be the same exact non-ADHD people who in real life have hurt you and made you feel bad. I sometimes feel the suggestion is being made that all non-ADHD people are responsible for the harm done to people with ADHD in the past. That's much too heavy a responsibility to take on. I get it that people have been traumatized, but if it wasn't me who caused that trauma, it's scary and painful and confusing to feel as if I am answerable for it.

I wasn't saying that non-adhd partners shouldn't feel welcome here. Again
if they want to learn and discuss, I'm happy to share space and stories with
them. If they want to vent or rant, there could be a better place or a better
way to handle it.

When we post a thread that's a rant or a vent in the general sections, it
seems they usually have a note about that in the thread title. Perhaps if
everyone were to label their threads as a vent or a rant, we'd have some
idea of whether to participate in that particular discussion.

I don't believe I blame anyone on this forum for the trauma I've experienced
in my past. But when it appears that they are inflicting a similar trauma on
the adhd person in their life, I feel I must speak out on that person's behalf.
Sometimes people (adhd or non-adhd) hear a message from another person
that they are not hearing from their partner.

acdc01
10-01-15, 01:19 PM
When we post a thread that's a rant or a vent in the general sections, it
seems they usually have a note about that in the thread title. Perhaps if
everyone were to label their threads as a vent or a rant, we'd have some
idea of whether to participate in that particular discussion.

Interesting idea but I'm not sure how that could work on this subforum. There's a lot of new posters and they would never know to put a note in the thread. Then we'd get upset they didn't follow the rules.

If the posts on this subforum hurt you, instead of just avoiding certain threads could you just avoid the subforum all together? Not trying to make you feel unwelcome here Lunacie. It's just something I do. I've started to avoid this subforum unless I see a title in the new threads list that interests me like this thread here. Ironically, I don't avoid it because of the non-ADHDer posts. I avoid it cause I don't like the harsh responses to the non-ADHDer posts.

Luvmybully
10-01-15, 01:21 PM
Lunacie--

I really respect what you are saying here. I think you put it extremely well, and I think this is, now, what the issue is really about. If what you feel is true, then you
are right, this isn't the place for most non-ADHD partners of people with ADHD.

But ADDF comes up very prominently when one does google searches looking for help, and then you see the "Non-ADD Partner Support Board." To a lot of people, that sounds like a welcome and an offer of safe, protected space for anyone who needs help dealing with someone else's ADHD. I completely respect that the truth may be that ADDF is really only for people with ADHD. But if so, I don't think it should have the Non-ADD Partner Support board, or maybe that board should have a different name.

If ADDF CAN also be for people who don't have ADHD but need help dealing with their loved ones' ADHD, then I think the Non-ADD Partner board is a great thing. And I also hope that people with ADHD who post about the concerns on non-ADHD-er can remember that it really is possible for ADHD people to be in the majority, and that when non-ADHD-er venture among them, they may need consideration as a minority presence here.

Also, and this is important, the non-ADHD people who post here are unlikely to be the same exact non-ADHD people who in real life have hurt you and made you feel bad. I sometimes feel the suggestion is being made that all non-ADHD people are responsible for the harm done to people with ADHD in the past. That's much too heavy a responsibility to take on. I get it that people have been traumatized, but if it wasn't me who caused that trauma, it's scary and painful and confusing to feel as if I am answerable for it.

I don't see this as being quite so black and white.

There is a BIG difference between non-adhd people not being welcome at all, and non-add'ers rants and vents not being well received.

As far as the resposibility for past harms goes, I also do not see that as quite so clearly defined. Again, there is a difference in saying "you" caused me harm vs saying "I was harmed by someone in my life doing the same actions you are doing to your spouse".

Anytime someone is in a minority situation, it is not going to be well received to vent and spew negative feelings about the majority.

This is not saying the minority is not welcome, just their venting against what the majority deals with on a daily basis is not going to be met with warm fuzzies.

Lunacie
10-01-15, 01:22 PM
I am having a horrible anxiety attack at the moment over changing my
perception of this forum as a safe place for me to just be myself - and
now being told that I need to struggle to "fit into a non-adhd world" just
like I have to everywhere else. Can't I have just one place where I can
relax and not struggle?

acdc01
10-01-15, 01:35 PM
Lunacie, you absolutely can still be yourself. I think I posted once that I don't remember you actually being overly harsh to anyone (not those exact words but something similar) and I meant that. You're always considerate and respectful of people both in this forum well as the other subforums. You dont need to be change.

Lunacie
10-01-15, 01:41 PM
Lunacie, you absolutely can still be yourself. I think I posted once that I don't remember you actually being overly harsh to anyone (not those exact words but something similar) and I meant that. You're always considerate and respectful of people both in this forum well as the other subforums. You dont need to be change.

Thanks, but that's the message I'm getting. One poster actually used those
words about being careful in the non-adhd sub-forum and trying to "fit in."

namazu
10-01-15, 01:52 PM
Sorry this is long; I can't do "short" and "adequately nuanced" and "with specific examples" at the same time!

-----------------------------------------
To Lunacie, specifically:

Lunacie, no one is trying to take your safe space away from you.

But this specific subforum of ADDF is meant to be a supportive space for people without ADHD who have partners with ADHD, even if there are other forums out there (just as there are other forums for people with ADHD). You're not obligated to read the posts in this subforum, if they dredge up hurtful feelings and memories, but its existence and ADDF's commitment to providing support to people affected indirectly by ADHD is not an attempt to push you out of ADDF or to silence your voice. I, for one, quite appreciate your voice and hope you'll continue to speak up.

----------------------------------------
To everyone:

A number of us who have taken a stand for making this place more welcoming to non-ADHD partners have ADHD ourselves. Some of us have had the good fortune to have understanding and supportive non-ADHDers in our lives, and want to spread that good fortune around. Some of us just have a commitment to making this a place where we can support and educate people who, at least by the simple fact that they've ended up here, have indicated that they want help and understanding. (I don't want to rehash the argument about "my wife is lying" guy, but the vast majority of posters here are not that guy, and I think we all understand that.)

It's true that some non-ADHD partners are not willing (or more often, I suspect) not ready or able to handle some of the direct advice we give, or the way it's sometimes delivered. Maybe we can improve on the front, or maybe that's just something we're all going to have to live with.

But I'm not sure that our "blunt, emotional responses" -- the expression of our ADHD, in short -- nor even the content of our advice itself, are the sole reasons that some non-ADHD partners feel unwelcome or unfairly attacked. It's not about us not fitting into someone else's mold, or holding our tongues when we see injustice being done, necessarily -- but about ensuring we, as human beings, truly acknowledge the human beings on the other side of the screen.


I think the thing that hit me most though, was VeryTired's point about people without ADHD not being NTs necessarily. With so many people in every population being effected be depression or other mental issues, I think NT is a unhelpful term.
I emphatically second this.

I find the "us vs. them" mentality to be harmful -- not only to "them", but also to "us" -- because it reinforces the idea that we aren't a part of the same mass of humanity. Sometimes it may feel like we're operating in different worlds, or that we're members of different species, but we're not.

And I would go one step beyond what Amberwillow said: Just because people lack diagnosable mental disorders altogether doesn't automatically imply that their lives are a piece of cake (in general, or within a relationship)!

I want to try to give some examples of the way the "us vs. them" viewpoint, the idea that non-ADHDers are so very different from ADHDers, has played out in a way that might be off-putting and hurtful to non-ADHDers, without necessarily calling out specific posters or directly quoting from past threads (because I don't think rehashing those will advance the discussion). Hopefully these examples will be specific enough and explained well enough that I can avoid going there (and if people recognize themselves in the examples, they won't take it as an attack on their character, just their assumptions).

By definition, all else being equal, a person without a disability will have an easier time of things than a person with a disability in the areas affected directly or indirectly by the disability. No argument there.

BUT:

"Easier" does not necessarily equal "easy", even in those disability-specific areas. Very few human traits, including those affected by ADHD, are binary (black/white, yes/no, on/off). Not everyone without ADHD has perfect self-control, an excellent short-term memory, and the ability to sit still for as long as they want!

Specific example: an ADHDer recently claimed that non-ADHDers "have it easy", period, full stop, no qualifications included or allowed. Not just "easier", but "easy". This is an unsupported (and probably unsupportable) and over-generalized claim that's dismissive of some of the real concerns and struggles (see above and below) of the non-ADHDers in our midst.

Non-ADHD (or even "NT") does not necessarily equal "blissfully unencumbered". People without ADHD don't get to prance through life on the back of a unicorn! Saying that the non-ADHD partner automatically "has it easy" is failing to acknowledge the substantial possibility that the non-ADHDer may have another serious medical condition, an aging parent, heavy/stressful work or childcare responsibilities, debt, a really difficult life story, less-than-perfect memory, etc...

(And yes, ADHDers can and often do have additional challenges as well, in part as consequences of our ADHD. But it's not a p****** contest.)

Just because non-ADHDers have better ability to regulate their emotions, on average, than people with ADHD, does not necessarily mean that non-ADHDers all possess both the ability and the responsibility to handle whatever's thrown at them (short of overt abuse), whenever, with stoicism, grace, and without suffering any ill effects. In real life, or online.

Specific example: An ADHDer posted in one thread that the they felt like people were ganging upon the OP. Another ADHDer commented that the non-ADHDer probably wouldn't get overwhelmed by all the posts, and in fact, it probably wouldn't be an issue at all for them because they were "NT". This is an unsupported assumption, and one that sounds awfully dismissive (unintentionally, I'm sure!) of the OP, in my opinion.

If I came here for advice, and the emphatic advice was that I needed to change my expectations about my relationship with my life partner, navigate very uncomfortable social and family issues, and so on, that would be a HUGE emotional bombshell.

Even someone with excellent emotional regulation and reading skills and time management and reasoning and compassion could easily become overwhelmed by that, especially when bombarded by multiple arguing posts appearing in rapid-fire fashion.

The comment about "it probably wouldn't even be an issue", to me, seems dismissive of the OP's challenges because it makes the unfair and probably incorrect assumption that the OP should simply be able to breeze through the thread and assimilate what was said -- major mindset changes, bickering, and all.

Related assumptions and statements that strike me as both unsupportable and unsupportive (whether explicitly stated or implied) include the ideas that:


Non-ADHDers should find it simple or straightforward to implement our suggestions-- never mind the emotional issues or the practical issues,

When non-ADHDers question or challenge or push back against our suggestions it's because they're "not listening" or "just want validation for their old ways" or "they really just want to vent about their partner" -- rather than, maybe, because they're honestly overwhelmed by what's been said, or because perspective-taking is difficult, or because they're having trouble wrapping their head around things that aren't intuitive to them, or other possible alternatives...

(Again, there are people who just want to complain, and can't or won't changed, but "because they're an unsupportive jerk" may not be the most appropriate or most accurate first or even second or third guess. And if you do conclude that the person really is pigheaded and mean-spirited, then all the argument or berating in the world isn't likely to have a positive effect.)

This stuff is difficult, even for people without ADHD!

Acknowledging that simple fact, and maybe, while we're at it, acknowledging our shared humanity -- starting out with "Yeah, it would be frustrating if my partner did X, Y, Z" (assuming you can indeed empathize with the OP), before jumping straight to the explanatory/problem-solving response of "Your partner's doing this because he's feeling X, Y, Z, or because you're doing A, B, C" -- might also help non-ADHDers feel more welcome and less like they're being attacked.

(And just because some people will now protest "But I do that already!" or "I'm not like that!" -- That's wonderful! You're contributing to a more supportive and welcoming environment already.)

"Be kind; everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." (http://www.printfriendly.com/print/?source=homepage&url=http%3A%2F%2Fquoteinvestigator.com%2F2010%2F06 %2F29%2Fbe-kind%2F)

VeryTired
10-01-15, 02:09 PM
Sometimes I wish I could hit the thanks button repeatedly for a particular post.

Namazu, you're my hero. You have cut to the heart of the difficult, confusing, complicated issues we are discussing and articulated an honorable, generous, wise, admirable way to think about this stuff. You have said all the things I most wish to have said here, and you have said them well. And coming from you, I think these thoughts carry great weight.

I am inspired by what you've said. And the spirit in which you have said represents everything I appreciate most about ADDF: tolerance, intelligence, insight, good will, generosity, and lived experience.

Thank you thank you thank you thank you. Thank you!!!

Lunacie
10-01-15, 02:25 PM
Sorry this is long; I can't do "short" and "adequately nuanced" and "with specific examples" at the same time!

-----------------------------------------
To Lunacie, specifically:

Lunacie, no one is trying to take your safe space away from you.

But this specific subforum of ADDF is meant to be a supportive space for people without ADHD who have partners with ADHD, even if there are other forums out there (just as there are other forums for people with ADHD). You're not obligated to read the posts in this subforum, if they dredge up hurtful feelings and memories, but its existence and ADDF's commitment to providing support to people affected indirectly by ADHD is not an attempt to push you out of ADDF or to silence your voice. I, for one, quite appreciate your voice and hope you'll continue to speak up.

----------------------------------------


I appreciate hearing from non-adhd partners when they explain what it's
like for them, and having a chance to help them see things from our view
point so they will hopefully understand and accept us better.

I may still get frustrated with those who can't seem to wrap their minds
around a different point of view, but I usually just unsubscribe from those
threads and "let it go."

But when we have a thread like this where we're getting told that we aren't
being sympathetic enough, and being told that we're bullies ... well I find it
interesting that more of us aren't bullies when that's all we've gotten from
non-adhd families and partners.

I find it very, very upsetting when someone says in essence that we need to
"try harder" to be like non-adhd partners/posters in order to make them
feel welcome, no matter how much judgment and blame they are bringing
to the table.

My thoughts are getting too tangled up at the moment. I'll check back after
they've had some time to settle.

namazu
10-01-15, 02:43 PM
But when we have a thread like this where we're getting told that we aren't
being sympathetic enough, and being told that we're bullies ... well I find it
interesting that more of us aren't bullies when that's all we've gotten from
non-adhd families and partners.

I find it very, very upsetting when someone says in essence that we need to
"try harder" to be like non-adhd partners/posters in order to make them
feel welcome, no matter how much judgment and blame they are bringing
to the table.

My thoughts are getting too tangled up at the moment. I'll check back after
they've had some time to settle.

:grouphug: Yeah, this thread has been really stressful for me, too, and I suspect for most of the participants. :(


When someone insists that you need to "try harder" to be like someone you are not (and don't necessarily have any desire to be like!) for others' convenience*, ask yourself, "What would Sarahsweets say?" ;)


*(Which is not what I was trying to say, at least, though that may not have come across as intended. My point was that they're already actually more like us than we sometimes believe.)

acdc01
10-01-15, 02:50 PM
:grouphug: Yeah, this thread has been really stressful for me, too, and I suspect for most of the participants. :(

Stressful, but beneficial and important to have in my opinion. Thanks VeryTired for starting this thread.

Sucks that most of the important conversations are often also the most difficult.

Luvmybully
10-01-15, 02:53 PM
Lunacie, {{hugs}}

I am JUST focusing on Namzu's post. Ignoring everything else that has been said.

You do not have to try harder to be like non-adhd posters. Not to make them feel welcome, not to allow them to vent negative feelings.

You do not have to hide your true self. You do not have to mask or minimize your life experiences in order to make a non-adhd member feel better about themselves.

The challenge is not for the adhd members to be like the non-adhd members.

The challenge is in allowing for the humanness of the non-adhd members.

We ALL face struggles and difficulties. Those with adhd have their own set of very tough challenges.

Those without adhd also face very tough challenges.

What is being asked is that EVERYONE remember that we are all human and all face very real problems. The one commonality we ALL share here is adhd in our lives.

Yes, those without adhd do not face adhd impairments. BUT they still DO have very real, very valid, challenges.

Now I will speak of what has been said, outside of namazu's post.

The message has been a difficult one to truly pinpoint. There are many points of view, some of us have felt like we were being scolded, (me included), and it seemed like the point was ALL about non-adhd'ers being coddled and allowed to say/do whatever they want, unchallenged.

Very Tired and Namazu have both managed to narrow it down and finally get to the specifics: we are all human, we all struggle, and we all need our struggles to be acknowledged in order to be able to move beyond them, and find healthy solutions.

Does this make sense Lunacie? The very LAST thing I ever want to do is hurt you more. I am just trying to explain how I view this, because it does involve me too.

:grouphug:

Lunacie
10-01-15, 03:24 PM
Lunacie, {{hugs}}

I am JUST focusing on Namzu's post. Ignoring everything else that has been said.

You do not have to try harder to be like non-adhd posters. Not to make them feel welcome, not to allow them to vent negative feelings.

You do not have to hide your true self. You do not have to mask or minimize your life experiences in order to make a non-adhd member feel better about themselves.

The challenge is not for the adhd members to be like the non-adhd members.

The challenge is in allowing for the humanness of the non-adhd members.

We ALL face struggles and difficulties. Those with adhd have their own set of very tough challenges.

Those without adhd also face very tough challenges.

What is being asked is that EVERYONE remember that we are all human and all face very real problems. The one commonality we ALL share here is adhd in our lives.

Yes, those without adhd do not face adhd impairments. BUT they still DO have very real, very valid, challenges.

Now I will speak of what has been said, outside of namazu's post.

The message has been a difficult one to truly pinpoint. There are many points of view, some of us have felt like we were being scolded, (me included), and it seemed like the point was ALL about non-adhd'ers being coddled and allowed to say/do whatever they want, unchallenged.

Very Tired and Namazu have both managed to narrow it down and finally get to the specifics: we are all human, we all struggle, and we all need our struggles to be acknowledged in order to be able to move beyond them, and find healthy solutions.

Does this make sense Lunacie? The very LAST thing I ever want to do is hurt you more. I am just trying to explain how I view this, because it does involve me too.

:grouphug:

Thank you, Luvmybully. I do think you manage to straddle the line between
having adhd and not having it and help us all to see things more clearly.
I appreciate your empathy for all of us.

The part I bolded in your post is what I've been feeling. That we with adhd
must walk on eggshells in the non-adhd partner forum so we don't make
them feel afraid or bullied or invalidated.

But I think they need to know how their attitudes and behaviors sometimes
make us feel ... and let them know what we can - and what we cannot - do
to find solutions.

The post making the comment that we need to try to "fit in" when we post
on the non-adhd forum wasn't challenged or commented on by anyone but
me.

But people have been reassuring in their responses to my challenge to that
advice, and I do appreciate that. :grouphug:

Andi
10-01-15, 03:26 PM
Understanding that there is a desire to just vent for some and folks, we all need to understand that ADDers vent in several of the other sub-forums about NTers and the Non-ADHD spouse/partner also need a place to just let go, we do have a private forum that is currently inactive but if non-add spouses/partners wish to join to feel more comfortable in posting you can reach out to me or one of the Super Mods for a password.

Thanks.

dvdnvwls
10-02-15, 06:52 PM
I am absolutely and wholeheartedly welcoming of people who don't have ADHD and who have both (a) a sincere desire to find out more about it, and (b) sincere basic respect for their spouse, SO, child, or relative who does have ADHD.

I frankly offer the idea that those things should be part of the forum guidelines, and that given a person who steadfastly ignores those things, making them feel welcome would be counterproductive and silly.

namazu
10-02-15, 09:15 PM
Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion, not any official ADDF statement. (When I say "we currently prohibit..." etc., I'm referring to the ADDF guidelines by which we all agreed to abide -- whether or not we realized it at the time! -- when we registered an account.)

I am absolutely and wholeheartedly welcoming of people who don't have ADHD and who have both (a) a sincere desire to find out more about it, and (b) sincere basic respect for their spouse, SO, child, or relative who does have ADHD.

I frankly offer the idea that those things should be part of the forum guidelines, and that given a person who steadfastly ignores those things, making them feel welcome would be counterproductive and silly.

Dvdvnvwls, it would be lovely if that were always the case, and...different if life were neat enough to draw such clear distinctions.

There are two major pragmatic challenges and one other issue I see with implementing your suggestion:

1. It's one thing to have guidelines about on-forum conduct, and to moderate statements made within forum posts. It's quite another to require, as a condition of participation, that a member behave in a certain way offline or believe certain things. We do currently prohibit and remove or edit most posts in which people promote or celebrate their offline illegal activities, such as obtaining prescription drugs without a prescription, or committing acts of violence or theft. But having to evaluate and police issues of "sincerity" and "respect" in matters outside of the forum, and then judge worthiness to participate, seems substantially more difficult, if not practically impossible.

As a workaround:
Where you (or another forum member) has judged a member to be undeserving of your time or advice because of what you believe to be a demonstrated lack of respect for the ADHDer or a lack of sincere desire to learn, and you have explained to that member why you believe their actions are harmful (to the ADHDer and/or themselves), instead of trying to hammer home the message by insulting or harassing that member (both of which do violate ADDF guidelines regarding on-forum conduct), set your phasers to "shun". If other members do wish to engage those people, that's their prerogative.

2. There have been cases of non-ADHD members whose ADHD partners had done something (e.g. cheated on them, verbally abused them, failed to follow through on something extremely important) to cause the non-ADHD partner to lose respect for the ADHDer (at least, provisionally).

Whether or not these lapses of judgment/behavior on the part of the ADHDer were due (directly or indirectly) to the ADHD, and whether or not the loss of respect was warranted (from the perspective of an ADHDer identifying with another ADHDer who had been in a similar position), I am not sure that demanding that the member respect the ADHDer in all cases (or be turned away) is reasonable.


The other thing: I assume respondents with ADHD would also have to vouch for and demonstrate their sincere desire to support and assist the non-ADHD member*, and also to demonstrate that they sincerely respect the non-ADHDers in their lives, in order to participate in the Non-ADD Partner Support subforum?

*(rather than solely to defend the ADHDer being discussed and explain how the non-ADHDer is wrong and unfair)

VeryTired
10-02-15, 10:32 PM
Dvdnvwls--

Here's my problem with what you are saying. I think it is very hard for us to know whether someone else does or doesn't have respect for their partner, child or relative. We all draw conclusions about this based on what people post, but I believe that we don't know for sure what they feel and why they feel it. It's possible for there to be differences of opinion about this.

So exactly whose opinion would determine whether or not a poster is respectful enough to take part in ADDF? Yours? mine? a majority of the moderators? This gets complicated.

You seem very sure that you can evaluate other people's attitudes in their relationships based on what they post here, and that you can recognize whether or not they deserve a welcome. That makes me uncomfortable, because I am not so sure any of us can know that much about each other for sure, and I think the value of a forum like this lies in great part in its openness.

dvdnvwls
10-03-15, 12:32 AM
Dvdnvwls--

Here's my problem with what you are saying. I think it is very hard for us to know whether someone else does or doesn't have respect for their partner, child or relative. We all draw conclusions about this based on what people post, but I believe that we don't know for sure what they feel and why they feel it. It's possible for there to be differences of opinion about this.

Sometimes it is in fact not hard at all to know that. Sometimes it really is clear and easy to tell. Again I'll say (I can't remember though whether I wrote it on this thread or another) that there seems to be a fashion lately for overestimating and overstating the relative-ness and undefinability of what people write and say.

Of course there are grey areas; but the existence of what's called a "grey area" presupposes a black area on one side of it and a white area on the other side. The grey area is simply not as large or all-encompassing as people are making it out to be. This is "not rocket science", as they say.

acdc01
10-03-15, 12:41 AM
Sometimes it is in fact not hard at all to know that. Sometimes it really is clear and easy to tell. Again I'll say (I can't remember though whether I wrote it on this thread or another) that there seems to be a fashion lately for overestimating and overstating the relative-ness and undefinability of what people write and say.

Of course there are grey areas; but the existence of what's called a "grey area" presupposes a black area on one side of it and a white area on the other side. The grey area is simply not as large or all-encompassing as people are making it out to be. This is "not rocket science", as they say.

About 9 out of 10 times dvdnvwls I've not felt the same as you on the people you deemed deserving of harshness. And I was clearly not the only one who disagreed.

So how can you say it is in fact not hard to know? Both groups of people can not be right. How can you be sure you're right?

daveddd
10-03-15, 01:54 AM
there was a time when a combination of my ADHD made me a very bad partner ( and i dont mean abuse)

i would have understand a frustrated venting partner

not everyone with ADHD are the ultra empaths who give it all they got

BellaVita
10-03-15, 03:10 AM
I am having a horrible anxiety attack at the moment over changing my
perception of this forum as a safe place for me to just be myself - and
now being told that I need to struggle to "fit into a non-adhd world" just
like I have to everywhere else. Can't I have just one place where I can
relax and not struggle?

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

I know how you feel.

I myself am feeling rather intimidated at the moment, and honestly this whole thing has only made me feel scared to now post in the non-ADHD partner section out of fear that my post isn't "kind enough" or "considerate enough" or making sure it's "not too direct" or from "an emotional place."

In my opinion as a member this is just way too many restrictions, expecting too much, especially since we are apparently supposed to act like perfect angels even when the non-ADHD partner might be acting hurtful towards their partner. (I'm not justifying being mean, I'm just saying come on, we can't be expected to respond overly-warm and fuzzy and soothing allll the time)

I do try my best to be kind, but it seems all of my life nothing I say or do is "good enough."

I am human too.

Fuzzy12
10-03-15, 04:29 AM
I don't think we have to respond overly warm and fuzzy if we aren't inclined to do so. Personally, I do think that in most cases as long as you aren't mean, hurtful or offensive it's fine. So if you aren't any of those things don't worry about it.

BellaVita
10-03-15, 04:59 AM
I don't think we have to respond overly warm and fuzzy if we aren't inclined to do so. Personally, I do think that in most cases as long as you aren't mean, hurtful or offensive it's fine. So if you aren't any of those things don't worry about it.

Thanks Fuzzy.

It just seems to me that we are getting told we aren't responding in a nice enough way, even if we aren't trying to be mean hurtful or offensive.

And then getting told to try to fit in with the non-ADHD'ers is really hard to hear after many of us have been told that all our lives, and when we really are doing our best.

I hope I don't get tackled for saying this, but this is support forum where the majority have ADHD and yet we are still getting told to "fit in" with those who don't have it?

I get making an effort to be nice, I think most of us do, but maybe the issue this whole time really is that we aren't speaking "neurotypical" enough? (And I don't mean neurotypical in a bad way or anything)

Fuzzy12
10-03-15, 05:09 AM
I don't think the problem is that you aren't speaking neuro typical enough. To be honest and this is just my personal opinion, I actually don't think there is a problem with how you post Bella. It seems (to me) like this thread is reaching and affecting the wrong people.

Personally (and I think it's ridiculous that the wrong people should get affected by this), i think it would help if certain people post less from a position of judgment, and consider the possibility that they're not always right about everything.

kilted_scotsman
10-03-15, 07:57 AM
In my view all is shades of grey..... when I begin to think in black and white it rings alarm bells in me and I try to be curious about why I'm so sure I "know"...... because the one thing I do know is that I don't know.

What I've found is that I can be pretty sure I'm on the right track....then BAM.... a small piece of information appears, often completely randomly that blows my picture of the situation apart.

There was a wonderful film on BBC years ago called "A Life Lived Backwards". It's based on a true story of an unlikely friendship. In the film you meet the main character as a difficult, violent, unpleasant guy one would avoid if one met him in his former abode in an underground carpark.

The film then depicts his unlikely friendship with a middleclass character (played by Benedict Cumberbatch). We slowly discover more about his life story, stepping back in time as the film steps forward exploring the developing friendship with Cumberbatch's character.

Each significant step forward in the film reveals a significant event in his past which challenges the viewers previous assumptions and we begin to understand why he acts the way he does..... and why he is unable to escape his past. We are drawn into the inevitability of the film's end when he is killed by a train... and understand why it was possibly as an act of suicide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart:_A_Life_Backwards

There is no "truth" there is only shades of grey...... we are all human, and there is always the possibility of redemption......right up until our final breath.

For some people, ADDers and non-ADDers alike.... this forum can be a place where we see ourselves in the mirror help up by others and move forward in our growth....

We never know what the trigger for that movement will be..... all we can do is turn up and be genuine, accepting and empathetic......

If we do not know ourselves.... how can we imagine we know another??

VeryTired
10-03-15, 10:00 AM
This thread has evolved in some unexpected ways--I mean ways I didn't imagine when I started it. I really regret the distress it's caused some people, and I am sorry that some of what I have tried to express has been so unclear. I am very grateful to everyone who has participated, and although there have been some difficult moments in the discussion, and some of us are probably still misunderstanding each other, I think it's valuable overall.

Bella, I don't think the thread has been giving your the message you've received from it. At least not from me. I realize I am much worse at expressing my opinion than I had thought--it seems to be confusing to a lot of people when I thought it was so clear. But one more time, I believe the discussion isn't about politeness or niceness or kindness, it's about recognizing the existence of totally different perspectives, needs, world views, and respecting their right to exist.

For me, the most important issue has been whether or not non-ADHD partners posting in the Non-ADD Partner Support board have a right to assume their own experience and concerns are primary and valid in discussion on that board. I feel people should have a right to post there and use that board as a safe space where their concerns are addressed, rather than (for instance) having their ADHD-partners' points of views addressed. I am also saying that just as you and others have eloquently stated that you can feel overwhelmed, hurt, or made vulnerable by the needs and expectations of non-ADHD people, so too can non-ADHD people feel overwhelmed, hurt or made vulnerable by people with ADHD here at ADDF, where they are in the minority.

Maybe a better way of saying this is that I think EVERYONE who comes to ADDF should be able to find support, advice, guidance, information, wisdom, etc. We should assume that everyone is in need of those things, that everyone has valid experiences and concerns and points of view. And we should assume that there will be a huge range of experiences and points of view--that no two of us are identical. I don't like it when there is taking sides or opposition based on whether someone has ADHD or doesn't, in particular. I learn so much from everyone here, and of course most people posting here speak from the point of view of having ADHD, so I am mostly learning from them. I would hope that some of those people also find my point of view, as a person who doesn't have ADHD, of use as well. But I would also hope that more non-ADHD people could participate here as well.

The Non-ADD Partner Support board "is a support forum for non-ADD partners, spouses, and significant others offering feedback from both the ADD and non-ADD perspectives"--to me that means it's important to have multiple perspectives, but those multiple perspectives should primarily be addressing the needs and experiences of the non-ADHD partner or poster. That's all.

Kilted scotsman is so eloquent when he says "this forum can be a place where we see ourselves in the mirror help up by others and move forward in our growth....

We never know what the trigger for that movement will be..... all we can do is turn up and be genuine, accepting and empathetic...… "

That to me is noble, honest, admirable. That's how I see ADDF, that's what it has been for me.

Sharing truths and triumphs is a great part of ADDF, but to me often the best part is when we encounter or share problems, confusions, failures, fears. That's why sometimes the difficult or painful discussions are the most helpful to me. I have learned a lot from this difficult thread about how hard it is really is for all of us, often, to imagine each others' world views, and how the certainty that one is right can be as much a form of blindness as of strength. This discussion haas made me thoroughly question everything I thought I knew when I started out. As it happens, in this case, I haven't actually changed my original views much, but I have certainly learned a lot about why not everyone else shares them.

Lunacie
10-03-15, 11:10 AM
I think some of us are trying to explain that we don't always feel accepting
and empathetic towards some of the posts we're reading.

I know that's how I sometimes feel. I can't make myself feel accepting and
empathetic when someone is accusing their adhd partner of things aren't
very likely to be true. It wouldn't be genuine.

Unmanagable
10-03-15, 11:34 AM
This thread has evolved in some unexpected ways--I mean ways I didn't imagine when I started it. I really regret the distress it's caused some people, and I am sorry that some of what I have tried to express has been so unclear. I am very grateful to everyone who has participated, and although there have been some difficult moments in the discussion, and some of us are probably still misunderstanding each other, I think it's valuable overall.

Bella, I don't think the thread has been giving your the message you've received from it. At least not from me. I realize I am much worse at expressing my opinion than I had thought--it seems to be confusing to a lot of people when I thought it was so clear. But one more time, I believe the discussion isn't about politeness or niceness or kindness, it's about recognizing the existence of totally different perspectives, needs, world views, and respecting their right to exist.

For me, the most important issue has been whether or not non-ADHD partners posting in the Non-ADD Partner Support board have a right to assume their own experience and concerns are primary and valid in discussion on that board. I feel people should have a right to post there and use that board as a safe space where their concerns are addressed, rather than (for instance) having their ADHD-partners' points of views addressed. I am also saying that just as you and others have eloquently stated that you can feel overwhelmed, hurt, or made vulnerable by the needs and expectations of non-ADHD people, so too can non-ADHD people feel overwhelmed, hurt or made vulnerable by people with ADHD here at ADDF, where they are in the minority.

Maybe a better way of saying this is that I think EVERYONE who comes to ADDF should be able to find support, advice, guidance, information, wisdom, etc. We should assume that everyone is in need of those things, that everyone has valid experiences and concerns and points of view. And we should assume that there will be a huge range of experiences and points of view--that no two of us are identical. I don't like it when there is taking sides or opposition based on whether someone has ADHD or doesn't, in particular. I learn so much from everyone here, and of course most people posting here speak from the point of view of having ADHD, so I am mostly learning from them. I would hope that some of those people also find my point of view, as a person who doesn't have ADHD, of use as well. But I would also hope that more non-ADHD people could participate here as well.

The Non-ADD Partner Support board "is a support forum for non-ADD partners, spouses, and significant others offering feedback from both the ADD and non-ADD perspectives"--to me that means it's important to have multiple perspectives, but those multiple perspectives should primarily be addressing the needs and experiences of the non-ADHD partner or poster. That's all.

Kilted scotsman is so eloquent when he says "this forum can be a place where we see ourselves in the mirror help up by others and move forward in our growth....

We never know what the trigger for that movement will be..... all we can do is turn up and be genuine, accepting and empathetic...… "

That to me is noble, honest, admirable. That's how I see ADDF, that's what it has been for me.

Sharing truths and triumphs is a great part of ADDF, but to me often the best part is when we encounter or share problems, confusions, failures, fears. That's why sometimes the difficult or painful discussions are the most helpful to me. I have learned a lot from this difficult thread about how hard it is really is for all of us, often, to imagine each others' world views, and how the certainty that one is right can be as much a form of blindness as of strength. This discussion haas made me thoroughly question everything I thought I knew when I started out. As it happens, in this case, I haven't actually changed my original views much, but I have certainly learned a lot about why not everyone else shares them.

The part I bolded really reached out and grabbed my attention, as well as my heart. It reminded me of how incredibly awkward I was made to feel when I used to try to participate in the science threads back in the day. I think sarah mentioned something about this, too.

I felt pounced on, ganged up on, and aggressively communicated with regarding my opinions and experiences, and felt like I wasn't considered "good enough", yet again, to participate in something. Once again feeling devalued for having an opinion or experience that wasn't deemed credible enough, and this time, it was amongst the only f'n people I thought I could fit in with.

Sure, a lot of it was from past trauma being triggered by my perceptions, but much of it was also in the delivery by members who were dead set against viewing any other viewpoint, because they and science said so, period.

It felt pretty f'n brutal for a while, but I also clearly learned who I could and could not attempt to communicate with because it also showed me their overall personalty/communication style, and I was able to see who I knew I'd never jive with on many levels, not just while trying to learn more.

I'm no longer intimidated by participating, although I mostly choose not to since I still haven't become more highly educated based on society's acceptable definition of education. I've learned I'm a minority in my beliefs/experiences/opinions and not everyone is willing or able to sincerely listen to places my mind goes.

There was a time I felt aggressively attacked for having a different, and what felt like totally unaccepted point of view. It triggered a lot inside and created a living hell within my mind as a result. Now it simply serves to entertain my curiosity and I no longer give it the value to f*** with me like I used to.

Many AFGO moments await us wherever we roam, indeed. Another F'n Growth Opportunity. We'll never avoid hurting people. We can only hope it's never done intentionally.

BellaVita
10-03-15, 11:42 AM
Bella, I don't think the thread has been giving your the message you've received from it. At least not from me. I realize I am much worse at expressing my opinion than I had thought--it seems to be confusing to a lot of people when I thought it was so clear. But one more time, I believe the discussion isn't about politeness or niceness or kindness, it's about recognizing the existence of totally different perspectives, needs, world views, and respecting their right to exist.

I was responding to some things that were actually written in this thread, like the part about fitting in with the non-ADHD'ers.

And also, it seems even after I've said that some of us are just naturally blunt, to-the-point and very honest that that isn't good enough and needs to be more nice-sounding. And if not, then there really are mixed signals being sent I think.

I think we respect the right of other's point of views to exist.

I know that the non-ADHD'ers are human too and feel human emotion.

It doesn't mean that I'll be super accepting of a wrong way of treating a spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend/child....but it doesn't mean I'll be mean either.

Being honest is important, and often non-ADHD'ers come here not knowing what it is like for their partner.

If they only wanted advice from non-ADHD'ers (those who share the same perspective) then why go to a forum where the majority has ADHD?

Of course hearing someone go on and on about their ADHD partner, saying the same things we've been told all our lives, will trigger an emotional response.

Anyway...what we are usually best at, is providing the non-ADHD partner perspective on what it might be for their ADHD partner.

This can help bring about understanding.

And understanding = working toward better solutions

If this is really about others having a right to different views and perspectives, then I do not see why there is an issue when an ADHDer provides their own different perspective?

kilted_scotsman
10-03-15, 11:56 AM
Yes genuineness in response is the key..... if you try to fake empathy or acceptance it isn't going to work.....

In psychotherapy, Acceptance, Genuineness and Empathy are the cornerstones of the Person-Centred approach.... and integral in the building of the "relational space" in other modalities.

As a therapist this means if you don't feel these three things with a client.....you refer them on to a colleague....not to do so is regarded as unethical.

In the context of the forum.... if one doesn't feel some empathy, acceptance and genuineness in ones response to the member then it's probably best not to respond at all...

Just leave responding to other members who might be able to feel empathetic and accepting of the behaviour..... in this particular subforum that might be other non-ADDer partners.

dvdnvwls
10-03-15, 12:11 PM
kilted...

In a way, I get what you're saying.

There are, however, some behaviours (belittling one's spouse, contempt for one's spouse, etc, and in a discussion setting rather than an "I'm just venting, sorry" setting) where empathy and acceptance are either (a) morally wrong or (b) best left to a professional.

kilted_scotsman
10-03-15, 12:20 PM
Yup... sometimes empathy and acceptance are best left to a professional.......

Even amongst professionals empathy and acceptance for some clients is best passed on to other more experienced/specialist colleagues.

THe key to working in these situations is to disconnect the action/behaviour from the person......

Personally I feel that Empathy and acceptance for the PERSON is never morally wrong, but that doesn't mean I accept or empathise with the behaviour.

This is a facet of many professions.... eg in the UK barristers have the concept that they will defend anyone in court as long as they feel professionally competent to do so.....

this means that... regardless of how henious the alleged crime and how guilty the defendant seems or even pleads.... the defendant will be defended by someone who makes it their work to either get them acquitted, or a reduced sentence....

This is why professions like defence counsel, psychiatrist/therapist etc are not for the faint hearted or judgemental

Luvmybully
10-03-15, 02:35 PM
Yup... sometimes empathy and acceptance are best left to a professional.......



Kilted, it seems to me that a lot of your advice is geared toward a client/therapist relationship, vs more or less peers/equals having a mutual discussion on the internet.

You are VERY insightful and have excellent advice. But it's just a different setting and relationship dynamic.

PLEASE don't think I am chastising you, it's just an observation.

Luvmybully
10-03-15, 02:49 PM
I was responding to some things that were actually written in this thread, like the part about fitting in with the non-ADHD'ers.



If this is really about others having a right to different views and perspectives, then I do not see why there is an issue when an ADHDer provides their own different perspective?

Bella, I think after the back and forth discussions in this thread, what seems to be finally stated as the most prominantly voiced grievance is that many with adhd make assumptions about what the non-adhd partner SHOULD be able to do/feel/accomplish.

Yes, the point of view of adhd people IS very important, and no that is not the problem.

Yes, blunt and straightforward is to be expected, and no that is not the problem.

Most people ARE kind and civil, so no that is not the problem either.

No, no one is expected to sugar coat or ignore meanness or ill will expressed by non-adhd partners towards their spouses.

It is understood that emoptional responses are going to happen, and no that is not the problem.

The biggest problem is when the non-adhd partner is just assumed to be able to do all things with ease, and that when they express THEIR emotions, they are treated as if their emotions are wrong, or their distress is trivialized and minimized.

It really does not seem to be EVERYTHING that happens on the non-adhd support forum, just these FEW things that we are being asked to work on.

They are asking that the emotions of the non-adhd partners be acknowldged also.

BellaVita
10-03-15, 02:55 PM
Thanks Luvmybully. :)


Thanks for translating lots of this thread for me, to me this whole time it's felt like I've been in a cloud and could sorta see the topic but couldn't see the details.

Except for a random detail here and there that I could make out.

It all seemed very vague to me, but you helped to define some things.

So basically:
When a poster says they are upset and they say it's is because of their ADHD partner doing x y and z, we should say "I'm sorry you feel upset" (so acknowledging their emotions) and then offer advice and perspective?

I'm not very good with social stuff so that is why I'm asking.

Luvmybully
10-03-15, 03:11 PM
Thanks Luvmybully. :)


Thanks for translating lots of this thread for me, to me this whole time it's felt like I've been in a cloud and could sorta see the topic but couldn't see the details.

Except for a random detail here and there that I could make out.

It all seemed very vague to me, but you helped to define some things.

So basically:
When a poster says they are upset and they say it's is because of their ADHD partner doing x y and z, we should say "I'm sorry you feel upset" (so acknowledging their emotions) and then offer advice and perspective?

I'm not very good with social stuff so that is why I'm asking.

YES! You got it :grouphug:

Also, do not just assume that because they say they are the NON-adhd partner, that that means they can handle things easily.

And I just had one of those "AHA!" moments.....it is just as baffling for some without adhd to be misunderstood by someone with adhd, as it is for one woth adhd to feel like a non-adhd person does not understand them.

With no real way to know, for either those with or those without it, to truly comprehend from the other's perspective, it is hard to really know what the other is capable of; what they feel like; what they struggle with.

I think that is why the "NT" term is not real helpful, because just because someone does not have adhd, does not mean they CAN do everything that adhd impairs, never mind do it all easily.

Lunacie
10-03-15, 03:36 PM
YES! You got it :grouphug:

Also, do not just assume that because they say they are the NON-adhd partner, that that means they can handle things easily.

And I just had one of those "AHA!" moments.....it is just as baffling for some without adhd to be misunderstood by someone with adhd, as it is for one woth adhd to feel like a non-adhd person does not understand them.

With no real way to know, for either those with or those without it, to truly comprehend from the other's perspective, it is hard to really know what the other is capable of; what they feel like; what they struggle with.

I think that is why the "NT" term is not real helpful, because just because someone does not have adhd, does not mean they CAN do everything that adhd impairs, never mind do it all easily.

I do think that ahdh and NT people often communicate differently. That's just
one of the ways that adhd affects us and impairs us.

As someone with ADHD and borderline autistic symptoms, I find it very
helpful when someone adds "rant" or "just venting" to their thread title,
no matter what section it's in. Those are usually different than full on blame
and accusations, eh?

Luvmybully
10-03-15, 03:50 PM
I do think that ahdh and NT people often communicate differently. That's just
one of the ways that adhd affects us and impairs us.

Yes! Absolutely!

I have noticed that it is common for people with adhd to express attributes in communicating and emotional control to non-adhd people, that many many non-adhd people just do not have. There really isn't a standard set way of communication for all non-adhd people, just like there isn't one for all people with adhd.

This is where the "make less assumptions" comes in.

As someone with ADHD and borderline autistic symptoms, I find it very
helpful when someone adds "rant" or "just venting" to their thread title,
no matter what section it's in. Those are usually different than full on blame
and accusations, eh?

I think a lot of people would find this helpful! I know I would too.

Lunacie
10-03-15, 03:53 PM
Yes! Absolutely!

I have noticed that it is common for people with adhd to express attributes in communicating and emotional control to non-adhd people, that many many non-adhd people just do not have. There really isn't a standard set way of communication for all non-adhd people, just like there isn't one for all people with adhd.

This is where the "make less assumptions" comes in.



I think a lot of people would find this helpful! I know I would too.

Because communication and emotional control are part of the executive
function that we know is impaired in people with adhd, I don't think it's off
the mark to say that those without adhd are generally not impaired in those
areas, or not impaired as much perhaps.

daveddd
10-03-15, 03:54 PM
I do think that ahdh and NT people often communicate differently. That's just
one of the ways that adhd affects us and impairs us.

As someone with ADHD and borderline autistic symptoms, I find it very
helpful when someone adds "rant" or "just venting" to their thread title,
no matter what section it's in. Those are usually different than full on blame
and accusations, eh?

ive found (through many personal errors) that we here on the forum are in the minority that when we post an issue , we want a logical problem solving answer

i believe people higher in the dimension of self regulation actually solve problems by voicing their concern to open ears and receiving support and sympathy

i found myself in the rare instances i can do this, i find relief from problem feelings

just a thought

Luvmybully
10-03-15, 03:58 PM
Because communication and emotional control are part of the executive
function that we know is impaired in people with adhd, I don't think it's off
the mark to say that those without adhd are generally not impaired in those
areas, or not impaired as much perhaps.

Yes, again.

It is not that those without adhd are not impaired, but that those with adhd, who ARE impaired, very frequently misunderstand just what exactly it's like for those that are NOT impaired.

Because, really, how are they supposed to understand? But it does lead to some misconceptions, and overstatements, of the actually ability those without adhd really do have.

sarahsweets
10-03-15, 05:38 PM
When I participate in a forum and say something mean or need to take it down a notch and its brought to my attention right away, i can usually own my part in it and apologize-life is too short to worry about being right all the time. What is hard for me is to be told I need to participate in a certain way because how I had been participating has directly caused members to talk amongst themselves about how I and others have made them want to leave the forum or that we didnt support them. Can you see how this would make me feel.?Specifically, my past behavior as been so thoughtless, so ugly that I have been a direct cause of people wanting to leave the forum, and not getting support, to the point that they reached out to other members they did feel supported by to commiserate with. So when I hear how I should modify myself, my instincts are to not participate at all. You all know me, and you know my ultimate retort and view of life-I will never change that part of me. If someone sends me a pm and says "hey sarah you were a real as8hole and this is how and why..." I can at least see what the issue is and own my part in it and make ammends. Its how I live my life. But this secret, not-so-secret, evasive, general "members have told me that..." stuff just means that I will have shut my mouth, because if I cant make it right I would rather not participate at all.

Lunacie
10-03-15, 05:55 PM
When I participate in a forum and say something mean or need to take it down a notch and its brought to my attention right away, i can usually own my part in it and apologize-life is too short to worry about being right all the time. What is hard for me is to be told I need to participate in a certain way because how I had been participating has directly caused members to talk amongst themselves about how I and others have made them want to leave the forum or that we didnt support them. Can you see how this would make me feel.?Specifically, my past behavior as been so thoughtless, so ugly that I have been a direct cause of people wanting to leave the forum, and not getting support, to the point that they reached out to other members they did feel supported by to commiserate with. So when I hear how I should modify myself, my instincts are to not participate at all. You all know me, and you know my ultimate retort and view of life-I will never change that part of me. If someone sends me a pm and says "hey sarah you were a real as8hole and this is how and why..." I can at least see what the issue is and own my part in it and make ammends. Its how I live my life. But this secret, not-so-secret, evasive, general "members have told me that..." stuff just means that I will have shut my mouth, because if I cant make it right I would rather not participate at all.

This ^ It leaves us not just walking on eggshells ...
but blindfolded so we can't even see the eggshells to avoid them.

kilted_scotsman
10-03-15, 06:01 PM
Yes LuvmyBully..

i do post from a client/therapist viewpoint..... there's a reason for that.....

Having done about 5 years of psychotherapy training I believe that this forum is a very powerful place.... probably the most powerful and supportive mental health environment I've come across... quite unique in many ways.

It has changed my views on how I look at therapy..... I now don't think conventional one on one therapy is nearly as effective as really participating on this forum..... going through the discomfort, pain, emotional overwhelm that comes with being triggered and challenged here......... by being exposed to different opinions and ways of looking at our issues and then responding..... in public..... it's really amazing.

You say that the client/therapist relationship is different..... yes it may appear so.... however the underlying theories of mind and ways of working are very relevant to what happens here... because the underlying theories that are applied in one to one therapy today nearly all came from group work.... places where people interacted very much like we do here.

So though the context may be different... the "processes" aren't..... and that's the where the power lies.

This forum has almost all the factors that made for the most effective psychotherapy groups......the most significant difference is that, in successful groups the facilitators (mods) often introduced the participants to various relevant psychological theories in a simple and accessible manner when the group or an individual was having problems.

If this wasn't done.... the researchers found the group could often spend large amounts of time thrashing around and become discouraged or break up because they subconsciously knew something significant was happening but they couldn't find the way through..... by occasionally providing a possible metaphor the facilitators "turbo-charged" group discussion at critical points...... the members then rehashed the concepts to fit their own situation..... learned ..... and then moved on.

So the context may appear different.... but what's happening is the same..... and it's a lot more powerful and effective here......

Luvmybully
10-03-15, 06:03 PM
Yes LuvmyBully..

i do post from a client/therapist viewpoint..... there's a reason for that.....

Having done about 5 years of psychotherapy training I believe that this forum is a very powerful place.... probably the most powerful and supportive mental health environment I've come across... quite unique in many ways.

It has changed my views on how I look at therapy..... I now don't think conventional one on one therapy is nearly as effective as really participating on this forum..... going through the discomfort, pain, emotional overwhelm that comes with being triggered and challenged here......... by being exposed to different opinions and ways of looking at our issues and then responding..... in public..... it's really amazing.

You say that the client/therapist relationship is different..... yes it may appear so.... however the underlying theories of mind and ways of working are very relevant to what happens here... because the underlying theories that are applied in one to one therapy today nearly all came from group work.... places where people interacted very much like we do here.

So though the context may be different... the "processes" aren't..... and that's the where the power lies.

This forum has almost all the factors that made for the most effective psychotherapy groups......the most significant difference is that, in successful groups the facilitators (mods) often introduced the participants to various relevant psychological theories in a simple and accessible manner when the group or an individual was having problems.

If this wasn't done.... the researchers found the group could often spend large amounts of time thrashing around and become discouraged or break up because they subconsciously knew something significant was happening but they couldn't find the way through..... by occasionally providing a possible metaphor the facilitators "turbo-charged" group discussion at critical points...... the members then rehashed the concepts to fit their own situation..... learned ..... and then moved on.

So the context may appear different.... but what's happening is the same..... and it's a lot more powerful and effective here......

Fascinating! Seriously, what a cool perspective.

Luvmybully
10-03-15, 06:10 PM
When I participate in a forum and say something mean or need to take it down a notch and its brought to my attention right away, i can usually own my part in it and apologize-life is too short to worry about being right all the time. What is hard for me is to be told I need to participate in a certain way because how I had been participating has directly caused members to talk amongst themselves about how I and others have made them want to leave the forum or that we didnt support them. Can you see how this would make me feel.?Specifically, my past behavior as been so thoughtless, so ugly that I have been a direct cause of people wanting to leave the forum, and not getting support, to the point that they reached out to other members they did feel supported by to commiserate with. So when I hear how I should modify myself, my instincts are to not participate at all. You all know me, and you know my ultimate retort and view of life-I will never change that part of me. If someone sends me a pm and says "hey sarah you were a real as8hole and this is how and why..." I can at least see what the issue is and own my part in it and make ammends. Its how I live my life. But this secret, not-so-secret, evasive, general "members have told me that..." stuff just means that I will have shut my mouth, because if I cant make it right I would rather not participate at all.


Sarah, this isn't about meanness.

And there is no secret any longer!

The biggest issue has been identified....It took a while, but now we KNOW.

Non-adhd posters feeling like they are not allowed to share their feelings. And many assumptions being made about how easy it should be for the non-adhd partner, what the non-adhd partner should be able to do.

That's IT. Really.

There's no more mysterious unknown.

No blindfolds or eggshells!

You do not have to worry, unless you make a habit out of assuming what other people should be able to do, or you disregard a non-adhd poster's feelings.

Which you do not do.

So you're all set!

Luvmybully
10-03-15, 06:12 PM
This ^ It leaves us not just walking on eggshells ...
but blindfolded so we can't even see the eggshells to avoid them.

Lunacie, really, you don't need to walk on eggshells.

There really is nothing more hidden.

Yes the conversation took some turns and lots was said, BUT the heart of the problem has been identified!

No more blindfolds.

Lunacie
10-03-15, 06:46 PM
VeryTired has identified what she believes is at the core of the communication
snafu. But the other posters who said they've had PM's haven't confirmed that
this is actually the issue.

That we all struggle with our feelings and perceptions at times. And we all
want someone to hear us and validate what we're feeling. As long as we're
free to point out the non-adhd partners that while their feelings are valid,
what their adhd partners are tellling them is also valid for them.

It's not that I don't think VT has identified a real concern, but that after all the
fuss I'd like to be absolutely sure that it's what the non-adhd partners were
complaining about.

Luvmybully
10-03-15, 06:54 PM
VeryTired has identified what she believes is at the core of the communication
snafu. But the other posters who said they've had PM's haven't confirmed that
this is actually the issue.

That we all struggle with our feelings and perceptions at times. And we all
want someone to hear us and validate what we're feeling. As long as we're
free to point out the non-adhd partners that while their feelings are valid,
what their adhd partners are tellling them is also valid for them.

It's not that I don't think VT has identified a real concern, but that after all the
fuss I'd like to be absolutely sure that it's what the non-adhd partners were
complaining about.

Namazu clarified :)

She gave some specific instances so we could see exactly what she was talking about!

I really do not think there is any other hidden issue, but I sure hope someone speaks up if there is.

Lunacie
10-03-15, 07:03 PM
Namazu clarified :)

She gave some specific instances so we could see exactly what she was talking about!

I really do not think there is any other hidden issue, but I sure hope someone speaks up if there is.

But Namazu is one of the mods and those who said they'd recieved PM's said
that the non-adhd partners were leery of contacting the mods or didn't realize
they could.

Sorry I'm being so difficult in asking for the posters who complained that we
don't welcome non-adhd partners to agree with that explanation, or explain
further if it's different than that.

Luvmybully
10-03-15, 07:06 PM
But Namazu is one of the mods and those who said they'd recieved PM's said
that the non-adhd partners were leery of contacting the mods or didn't realize
they could.

Sorry I'm being so difficult in asking for the posters who complained that we
don't welcome non-adhd partners to agree with that explanation, or explain
further if it's different than that.

I don't think you are being difficult at all.

I think we ALL want clarification and to make sure we understand.

So, who said they got complaints?

acdc, and kilted, I believe. Is there anyone else?

Will you 2 let us know if this is it? Or is there still something else?

anonymouslyadd
10-03-15, 07:25 PM
Responding to Others Based on One's Prior Experience
I think I understand how important it is to many people with ADHD here to protect and defend themselves (and others whom they feel are vulnerable) from cruelty or insensitivity from non-ADHD partners or family. That seems important to me, too. But I am also aware that one of the cruelest things about ADHD, especially untreated ADHD, is that it can in some situations lead to the person with ADHD being dangerous, inconsiderate, harmful, destructive or unfair to his or her partner and family. I think sometimes non-ADHD posters here are in such situations, and are in need of compassion and guidance even if they have mistaken ideas or are expressing negative emotions.

This is true, and the non-ADHDer partner deserves respect and as much compassion as the rest of us receive and desire.

I think it's very hard for ADHDers to see posts clobbering an ADDers behavior. I think these are very understanding forums, but I'm sure there are moments when we are not as supportive as we could be. We, as in this forum, need to remember the importance of educating non-ADHDers about ADD and the havoc it can cause in someone's life. If the non-ADHDer has taken the time to find an ADD support forum, they deserve the opportunity to vent and complain, without being hammered by an onslaught of judgments (as I type, I can feel the pain of having ADHD as well as the desire to defend myself or another from being wrongly criticized.)

In both scenarios, whether youre an ADHDer already on the forums or a non-ADHD member new to the forums, it's important to communicate your feelings in a constructive manner. Communicating constructively is the best way to communicate and exchange ideas. This way serves the interests of the ADDer and non-ADDer.

I think the hope for non-ADDers is that they'll come here and receive support and understanding for what they're going through. I hope we can help them view ADD differently, which will hopefully change how they view their partner. Changing beliefs won't come through harsh criticism or judgement, though. Changing beliefs will come through understanding and the desire to learn. You have that desire to learn verytired, and I'm thankful for your contribution to the forums.

namazu
10-03-15, 09:41 PM
I don't think you are being difficult at all.
I think we ALL want clarification and to make sure we understand.
So, who said they got complaints?
acdc, and kilted, I believe. Is there anyone else?
VeryTired also said she received some PMs from people on this subject.



(Of course, I'm not sure we can necessarily expect that everyone who voiced complaints or concerns sat down to articulate their reasons and put those clearly in the PMs! But if those of you who have received specific complaints could share whether or not you feel we've addressed the relevant issues already in this thread, please do!)

dvdnvwls
10-03-15, 10:34 PM
About 9 out of 10 times dvdnvwls I've not felt the same as you on the people you deemed deserving of harshness. And I was clearly not the only one who disagreed.

So how can you say it is in fact not hard to know? Both groups of people can not be right. How can you be sure you're right?

I have several concrete examples that I keep on citing. One of them is one of the situations that indirectly precipitated our current discussion - a new member who didn't believe his wife when she told him she was anxious, didn't believe her when she explained other aspects of what was going on in her mind, and flat-out stated (and strongly reiterated when challenged and shown evidence to the contrary) that she was lying about her situation.

I have in the past asked for anyone to show me how he was being respectful to his wife, to show me what I missed or misinterpreted in that discussion. No one was able to show me anything to back up their assertions that I was misjudging or misunderstanding or being too harsh or too hasty.

Can we just start with that one?



If it helps, we could turn it around.

Let's say I visit some other forum where no one has heard of you, and on there I ask for help with a disagreement I'm having. I tell them that you are lying about what you say; I tell them that no one could possibly believe what you claim to believe. And I tell them that therefore I need help dealing with liars.

Would that be respectful to you?

BellaVita
10-03-15, 10:59 PM
This ^ It leaves us not just walking on eggshells ...
but blindfolded so we can't even see the eggshells to avoid them.

I agree.

I mean, I am trying to learn here. But it *is* difficult for me to remember everything that I'm supposed to say.

dvdnvwls
10-03-15, 11:19 PM
I agree.

I mean, I am trying to learn here. But it *is* difficult for me to remember everything that I'm supposed to say.

... and when an ADHDer such as myself decides to take people at their word and actually not walk on eggshells, the very people who blithely assure everyone that there is no need for eggshells suddenly become very very touchy about what I say.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 01:10 AM
Sarah, this isn't about meanness.

And there is no secret any longer!

The biggest issue has been identified....It took a while, but now we KNOW.

Non-adhd posters feeling like they are not allowed to share their feelings. And many assumptions being made about how easy it should be for the non-adhd partner, what the non-adhd partner should be able to do.

That's IT. Really.

There's no more mysterious unknown.

No blindfolds or eggshells!

You do not have to worry, unless you make a habit out of assuming what other people should be able to do, or you disregard a non-adhd poster's feelings.

Which you do not do.

So you're all set!

If a husband's feelings are:

My wife is faking anxiety and faking ADHD symptoms because she'd rather just watch TV 24/7

... then what?

"Sharing" disrespectful and demeaning accusations in the context of a serious discussion (not a rant but a purposeful request for help) is not something I am going to be convinced is good, valid, or worth my consideration.

There is such a thing as right vs. wrong. There is such a thing as true vs. false. Not everything is fluffy mumbo-jumbo.


I'm going to say something that may sound revolutionary to people in "certain circles"...

There is such a thing as an invalid opinion.

"Validating" something that's not actually valid is called lying.

I'm sorry. I'm getting very irritated with the duplicity that seems to be going around.

namazu
10-04-15, 02:41 AM
If a husband's feelings are:

My wife is faking anxiety and faking ADHD symptoms because she'd rather just watch TV 24/7

... then what?
Then perhaps he's so utterly baffled by her behavior that he can't wrap his head around any other explanation.

Or maybe he says those things about his wife because it makes him feel better, as you suggested in another thread.

I'm not saying he's right, nor that he should be encouraged to hold on to those beliefs, which are quite probably utterly inaccurate and certainly disrespectful.

But I don't think we can assume he's saying them simply because he's an incorrigible ogre, either.

"Sharing" disrespectful and demeaning accusations in the context of a serious discussion (not a rant but a purposeful request for help) is not something I am going to be convinced is good, valid, or worth my consideration.

There is such a thing as right vs. wrong. There is such a thing as true vs. false. Not everything is fluffy mumbo-jumbo.


I'm going to say something that may sound revolutionary to people in "certain circles"...

There is such a thing as an invalid opinion.

"Validating" something that's not actually valid is called lying.

I'm sorry. I'm getting very irritated with the duplicity that seems to be going around.
Sometimes it seems to me that those who appear most certain about their convictions, who are unwilling to entertain the possibility that they could be wrong about their beliefs, and who are quickest to ascribe character flaws and unseemly motives to others are attempting to cover for fairly deep insecurities and feelings of inadequacy in themselves.

I haven't seen anyone here argue that it's right or good or necessary to "validate" posters' incorrect, disrespectful, or harmful misperceptions of their partners -- that is, to pretend that those misperceptions are "true". (...Assuming that we can, in fact, determine that the poster's belief is not supported by reality, but is based on gross misunderstanding of reality or worse.) I agree that to do so -- to endorse falsehoods -- would be unproductive and even morally suspect.

But we can still acknowledge that these posters may be feeling angry, feeling misunderstood, feeling upset, feeling confused, or feeling frustrated, and that they may be ill-equipped to deal with the situation in which they find themselves.

We can do this even as we also suggest that there may be a different approach. We can do this as we point out the ways in which posters may be making the situation more difficult for themselves and for their partners by clinging to these misperceptions. We can do this as we provide insights into what may be going on from the ADHDer's perspective.

And we can do all of this without assuming ill will on the part of the poster, without dismissing their concerns and their struggles, without accusing them of intentionally inflicting harm on their partners to make themselves feel "special", without calling them names, without pretending that they should lie at our feet and lap up our pearls of wisdom, without pretending that fixing the situation will be easy, and without ascribing to them any number of the same unflattering character labels that, if used in discussing the ADHD partner, we'd rail against. And if you can't do this, or don't feel it's worth your while to do this, you can walk away, preferably without throwing stones.

To do these things is not a moral transgression, nor is it duplicitous, nor is it "fluffy mumbo-jumbo".

It's what a support forum is for.

sarahsweets
10-04-15, 05:43 AM
So to be clear>>> let me just give a brief example;

pretend Im a non adhd partner:

"My husband has adhd. He says he will do certain things and never follows through. He says he has depression but I wonder if its just his way of avoiding doing any work. I want to understand him but I get so mad. How am I expected to hold up his and my end of the bargain?"
OK, my response with the new and improved support parameters-
"so and so- I hear what you are saying. I know that an adhd spouse can be hard to live with. It would be great if we could give you a how-to manual about how we think but its not so easy. When he tried to follow through and fails, its not that he wants to make things difficult, its that he really cant see things and do things the way you do. Can I suggest that you read xyz about adhd? It can offer some good insight...etc"

Is that a good start?
Now, what if the followup goes like this:
"Well I dont see how he can live like this and not see how he makes life so hard for me. I know he tried to avoid doing work because he is lazy. He says its because of his adhd, but I think he just doesnt try hard enough. I am trying to understand adhd but I just dont buy into the hype that its so difficult to live with. I am sure I could say I have adhd to avoid doing the dishes too.....etc"
In that scenario...what would be an acceptable response. If I have already acknowledged the non adhd partners feelings, and done my best to offer a resource, what next? I feel like if I were to go with my gut and respond about her feelings about her husband that we would be right back into the boat we just came out ot?

BTW I am not being flip here, I am completely serious, I really want things to work towards the positive around here.

VeryTired
10-04-15, 09:36 AM
I want to strongly, strongly second everything Namazu said in her last post--it's long so I won't quote the whole thing. But I agree 100% with it, and think it is exactly right about these difficult issues we are discussing here.

In the instance where someone writes in to say that his or her spouse does irresponsible, hurtful, problematic things, I think that if the discussion is occurring on the NonADD Partner Support board, the starting point for responses to the OP should probably be addressing how he or she feels, talking about his or her situation. And I think it's extremely beneficial for that person to have responses from both people with ADHD and people who don't have ADHD. I also think it's perfectly appropriate and desirable to tell that person if he or she is being unreasonable, failing to understand ADHD, or contributing to the problem.

But to me the important thing is to understand that being the partner of someone with ADHD can be very very hard sometimes, that there are specific problems that someone else's ADHD can cause, and that it is not entirely a non-ADHD partner's job to handle those problems alone.

Let's say someone posts about their ADHD partner's problems, and receives sympathetic responses as well as feedback about how their own perceptions might need to change. Let's say the OP continues to complain and doesn't seem to use the feedback already received. At that point, I think there are a couple good choices.

One is to repeat everything again. Sometimes it is hard to learn important life lessons quickly! Sometimes we can't hear what we most need to hear the first time it's said! Another possibility is for anyone who is frustrated by the OP to say that they feel the OP isn't understanding their points, and then--perhaps--leave the discussion so that others can continue it. I only suggest that possibility because we have been hearing a lot about how upsetting some ADDF members find it when non-ADHDers post about their frustrations with their ADHD partners.

I really appreciate sarah's attempt to model a good discussion here. To me, Sarah is a great example of someone who is always respectful of others and always very sensitive to the possibility of different points of view. And if she can do that so well and still be her "no F's given" self, that really shows how possible it is to have these discussions honestly and productively.

BellaVita
10-04-15, 10:20 AM
It seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong here, that we are being "schooled" on how to treat non-ADHD'ers, but yet we can't teach them a better way to treat their partner?

daveddd
10-04-15, 10:34 AM
It seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong here, that we are being "schooled" on how to treat non-ADHD'ers, but yet we can't teach them a better way to treat their partner?

you dont know their partner

Lunacie
10-04-15, 10:49 AM
you dont know their partner

But we do know adhd ... from the inside. Often the partner has been diagnosed
with adhd. When we see the non-adhd partner pointing out the 'flaws' they see
in the person with adhd, we can assure them that what they are seeing is not
a moral failing, a willful desire to hurt the other person, or anything like that.

What they are complaining about are common symptoms of a mental disorder
called adhd.

If your dog has a skin condition (mine does) and constantly scratches and bites
himself to the point where you think your head will explode if you have to
listen to one more minute of it, you can blame the dog and yell at him and
rant to everyone who will listen about how horrible it is living with that noise
all the fricking time.

Or you can do some reading and get the dog some treatment for his condition
so both of you can relax and enjoy each other's company. It's pretty silly to
blame the dog and say he's doing it because he's "too sensitive" or "so bored"
he can't think of anything else to do besides scratch himself.

So you go online, find a forum for dog lovers, see if anyone else has experience
with this, and consider their advice. It makes no sense to find this forum just so
you have a place to blame the dog. Is this a good analogy?

daveddd
10-04-15, 10:54 AM
But we do know adhd ... from the inside. Often the partner has been diagnosed
with adhd. When we see the non-adhd partner pointing out the 'flaws' they see
in the person with adhd, we can assure them that what they are seeing is not
a moral failing, a willful desire to hurt the other person, or anything like that.

What they are complaining about are common symptoms of a mental disorder
called adhd.

If your dog has a skin condition (mine does) and constantly scratches and bites
himself to the point where you think your head will explode if you have to
listen to one more minute of it, you can blame the dog and yell at him and
rant to everyone who will listen about how horrible it is living with that noise
all the fricking time.

Or you can do some reading and get the dog some treatment for his condition
so both of you can relax and enjoy each other's company. Good analogy?

i know what you mean

but i see a kind of made up model of ADHD here , where everyone is doing there best and has superior empathetic abilities

that may be true for some forum members , but in reality agressiveness, anger,self centered and even abuse are all traits commonly seen in ADHD

that could be what a partner is dealing with, and at that point 'its not their fault' is no longer acceptable

you dont know what the poster is dealing with

Lunacie
10-04-15, 11:18 AM
i know what you mean

but i see a kind of made up model of ADHD here , where everyone is doing there best and has superior empathetic abilities

that may be true for some forum members , but in reality agressiveness, anger,self centered and even abuse are all traits commonly seen in ADHD

that could be what a partner is dealing with, and at that point 'its not their fault' is no longer acceptable

you dont know what the poster is dealing with

I DO know that. You're describing me, before I was diagnosed, back when
everyone blamed me for not being a better person. Yeah, it made me bitter
and angry. It wasn't easy for my hubby, and I said that at the time. But his
denial that there could possibly be a reason for my inability to do things the
way he wanted me to made me much more angry and frustrated than just
the inability (which is very frustrating on it's own).


The reason the posters here are doing better than that and are more in touch
with their empathic abilities is because the other posters here believe us
when we say we just don't have as much control over our lives as others
think we should have. We are validated here as having a very real medical
condition instead of having a moral failing or being weak or willfully abusive.

daveddd
10-04-15, 11:23 AM
I DO know that. You're describing me, before I was diagnosed, back when
everyone blamed me for not being a better person. Yeah, it made me bitter
and angry. It wasn't easy for my hubby, and I said that at the time. But his
denial that there could possibly be a reason for my inability to do things the
way he wanted me to made me much more angry and frustrated than just
the inability (which is very frustrating on it's own).


The reason the posters here are doing better than that and are more in touch
with their empathic abilities is because the other posters here believe us
when we say we just don't have as much control over our lives as others
think we should have. We are validated here as having a very real medical
condition instead of having a moral failing or being weak or willfully abusive.

youre one person

i really doubt its the majority that are angry and abusive strictly as a reaction to there spouse telling them they are failing morally

it could be, but i bet with most it was there before the spouse

several ADHD it seems have been diagnosed but refuse to do anything about it

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 11:54 AM
Dave: Have you been taking into account the examples given by people like Sarah and myself?

daveddd
10-04-15, 11:58 AM
Dave: Have you been taking into account the examples given by people like Sarah and myself?

im sure all the examples are valid

its just some may not be quick to admit anger or abuse issues in their spouse, it may shine through as resentment


especially a male non adhd partner

namazu
10-04-15, 12:03 PM
In that scenario...what would be an acceptable response. If I have already acknowledged the non adhd partners feelings, and done my best to offer a resource, what next? I feel like if I were to go with my gut and respond about her feelings about her husband that we would be right back into the boat we just came out ot?

BTW I am not being flip here, I am completely serious, I really want things to work towards the positive around here.
If your gut feeling at that point is to tell the woman "Go bleep yourself!" -- probably not a constructive response (even if potentially satisfying!).

If you want to tell her that she's obviously not really trying to understand ADHD, because if she were really trying to understand, she'd have listened to us the first time when we said he wasn't faking ADHD to get out of work -- probably also not constructive. This stuff can take a while to sink in, and it can be hard for people to wrap their heads around the idea that ADHD actually can affect our ability to make and follow through on choices.

If you want to tell the woman that her husband probably isn't just using ADHD as an excuse, and she's being unfairly hard on him, and he's likely to respond negatively to this (by withdrawing or feeling shamed or being stubborn or making excuses), which isn't going to help the situation, go right ahead. (Better still, add some personal examples or workarounds.)

And if that doesn't seem to sway the poster at all, then it's probably time to bow out, because at that point you've given it all the constructive stuff you've got, and getting angry probably isn't going to change the poster's mind.


It seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong here, that we are being "schooled" on how to treat non-ADHD'ers, but yet we can't teach them a better way to treat their partner?
Sure, you can (try to) teach them a better way to treat their partner. Not sure where you got the idea that this was being discouraged.

If you can do this teaching in such a way that reflects that the other person is also a real human being with feelings and needs and quirks (instead of some faceless, alien "NT" who has everything together and is just hurting their partner for sport), so much the better.

BellaVita
10-04-15, 12:12 PM
Sure, you can (try to) teach them a better way to treat their partner. Not sure where you got the idea that this was being discouraged.

If you can do this teaching in such a way that reflects that the other person is also a real human being with feelings and needs and quirks (instead of some faceless, alien "NT" who has everything together and is just hurting their partner for sport), so much the better.

Oh okay, I thought that pointing out that someone needs to treat their ADHD partner in a different, more understanding way was being discouraged. I thought the thing being pushed here is that non-ADHD'ers want us to understand them from their perspective and provide insight from their perspective, and not ours. I thought our perspective was being discouraged. And that we are supposed to try to "fit in" with the NTs.

I have never thought that a non-ADHD partner is just "hurting their parter for sport" and I also don't see people who post there as "faceless, alien "NT"'.

I'm not sure where you got that idea. :scratch:

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 12:15 PM
So...

It's expected that no one on ADDF will ever write an angry response to an outrageous post?

That seems more than a little bit unreasonable.

daveddd
10-04-15, 12:17 PM
So...

It's expected that no one on ADDF will ever write an angry response to an outrageous post?

That seems more than a little bit unreasonable.

i dont think anyone said that

but i think a certain few think more posts are "outrageous " then others do

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 12:26 PM
i dont think anyone said that
I was referring to namazu's very recent post.

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 12:46 PM
If a husband's feelings are:



... then what?

"Sharing" disrespectful and demeaning accusations in the context of a serious discussion (not a rant but a purposeful request for help) is not something I am going to be convinced is good, valid, or worth my consideration.

There is such a thing as right vs. wrong. There is such a thing as true vs. false. Not everything is fluffy mumbo-jumbo.


I'm going to say something that may sound revolutionary to people in "certain circles"...

There is such a thing as an invalid opinion.

"Validating" something that's not actually valid is called lying.

I'm sorry. I'm getting very irritated with the duplicity that seems to be going around.

You are speaing of one very specific instance.

This whole thread was about a group that has a specific issue, and your example is not it.

No one is being asked to validate any opinion. Again, what was asked of us has never been about being mean, or sharing views. No one has been asked to ignore ill will, never mind condone it.

Acknowledging a non-adhd partner's feelings, has NOTHING to do with validating an opinion.

This is not about OPINIONS.

The other issue is assumnptions about a non-adhd partner SHOULD be able to do.

Your specific example really does not apply to either of these things.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 12:51 PM
You are speaing of one very specific instance.

This whole thread was about a group that has a specific issue, and your example is not it.

No one is being asked to validate any opinion. Again, what was asked of us has never been about being mean, or sharing views. No one has been asked to ignore ill will, never mind condone it.

Acknowledging a non-adhd partner's feelings, has NOTHING to do with validating an opinion.

This is not about OPINIONS.

The other issue is assumnptions about a non-adhd partner SHOULD be able to do.

Your specific example really does not apply to either of these things.
You're right, it doesn't.

In other words, the things being discussed here on this thread are not the real issue, and the real issue is being neatly avoided.

People are looking at threads where a ridiculous and worthless opinion is refuted, and judging that "The ADHDers have hurt someone's feelings again".

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 12:57 PM
So to be clear>>> let me just give a brief example;

pretend Im a non adhd partner:

"My husband has adhd. He says he will do certain things and never follows through. He says he has depression but I wonder if its just his way of avoiding doing any work. I want to understand him but I get so mad. How am I expected to hold up his and my end of the bargain?"
OK, my response with the new and improved support parameters-
"so and so- I hear what you are saying. I know that an adhd spouse can be hard to live with. It would be great if we could give you a how-to manual about how we think but its not so easy. When he tried to follow through and fails, its not that he wants to make things difficult, its that he really cant see things and do things the way you do. Can I suggest that you read xyz about adhd? It can offer some good insight...etc"

Sarah, I have "known" you for years now. I have never seen you act cold or callous or dismissive to ANYONE. If this response feels good to you, then certainly go with it. But the ONLY thing we are being asked is to NOT make the non-adhd partner feel like, in this example, their anger is THEIR flaw. Some memebrs have been dismissing the non-adhd partners emotions as trivial, and not really worthy of consideration or validation.

I HAVE DONE THIS TOO! I did not deliberately mean to. But when it was pointed out, in specific examples, Oh, snap, yes I did.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 12:59 PM
In the thread a lot of people got angry at me for ruining, I did not dismiss anyone's emotions; I dismissed his opinions, his opinions were demonstrably ridiculous, and no one has ever been able to show otherwise.

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 01:02 PM
I agree.

I mean, I am trying to learn here. But it *is* difficult for me to remember everything that I'm supposed to say.

Bella, there really is nothing you are "supposed" to say.

Only keep in mind that just because the partner does not have adhd, that does not mean that things are easy for them. Don't assume they have any particular capability.

And if they express an emotion they are feeling, don't trivialize that emotion.

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 01:08 PM
It seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong here, that we are being "schooled" on how to treat non-ADHD'ers, but yet we can't teach them a better way to treat their partner?

The only thing we are being asked to do is to NOT invalidate the non-adhd partner's feelings, and to not assume they have any particular capability.

We ALL want to be treated like this.

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 01:16 PM
You're right, it doesn't.

In other words, the things being discussed here on this thread are not the real issue, and the real issue is being neatly avoided.

People are looking at threads where a ridiculous and worthless opinion is refuted, and judging that "The ADHDers have hurt someone's feelings again".

THIS thread IS about the "real" issue that has been eluded to over several weeks, on multiple threads, by multiple people.

It is not about one specific example, but a prevailing atmosphere of trivializing one group's feelings, and making assumptions about their life and what they should be able to do.

Your one example you keep referring to is not a good representitive of this overall issue.

BellaVita
10-04-15, 01:17 PM
Bella, there really is nothing you are "supposed" to say.

Only keep in mind that just because the partner does not have adhd, that does not mean that things are easy for them. Don't assume they have any particular capability.

And if they express an emotion they are feeling, don't trivialize that emotion.

For me, there are things I'm "supposed" to say.

I have to memorize situations, and the scripts for them, and remember those scripts when the same situation occurs.

Since that is the case for me, I will do my best to remember to acknowledge the non-ADHD partner's emotions first ("I'm sorry you feel x...") and then move on to the advice/my perspective on things.

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 01:18 PM
In the thread a lot of people got angry at me for ruining, I did not dismiss anyone's emotions; I dismissed his opinions, his opinions were demonstrably ridiculous, and no one has ever been able to show otherwise.

Right! It was his opinion that was so offensive.

He did not (at least to me) seem very interested in a genuine discussion, as much as he wanted his negativity condoned.

BellaVita
10-04-15, 01:19 PM
The only thing we are being asked to do is to NOT invalidate the non-adhd partner's feelings, and to not assume they have any particular capability.

We ALL want to be treated like this.

So not to be ableist?

As long as it goes both ways, that once we acknowledge their feelings then we can also point out to them how they might be being ableist, I'm fine with that.

:)

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 01:21 PM
For me, there are things I'm "supposed" to say.

I have to memorize situations, and the scripts for them, and remember those scripts when the same situation occurs.

Since that is the case for me, I will do my best to remember to acknowledge the non-ADHD partner's emotions first ("I'm sorry you feel x...") and then move on to the advice/my perspective on things.

Ok, now I get you.

Yes, we ALL know what it's like to have our emotions disregarded.

And again, you do not HAVE TO say anything positive about that particular emotion if you don't really feel like it, just don't say anything that makes the person feel like having that emotion is bad.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 02:46 PM
Namazu's magical way of solving this thread seemed brilliant to me. It has taken me a second look (and a third and a fourth look) at it, to realize that it's not "magical" as in "brilliantly innovative", but "magical" as in "involving illusion or sleight-of-hand". :(

Morphing an interesting yet thorny discussion into a feel-good statement that no reasonable person could ever disagree with certainly seems attractive at first, but a closer examination reveals that at best the so-called solution is tangential - and at worst it's misleading, deflecting a potentially transformative and educational discussion into a "safe", sterile, and ultimately ineffectual one.


There is value in what namazu has said, but do we really have the resources to "go there"? At minimum, it would require every one of us to learn and uphold (and our already over-taxed moderators to permanently and consistently enforce) a rigorously pedantic distinction between feeling and opinion. Otherwise we will soon run into the same type of situation again - a poster who says "My feeling is that my spouse is lying about her feelings. Don't you dare say that my feeling that her feelings are invalid is invalid - you'll hurt my feelings!"



tl;dr: I'm afraid that namazu's recent "solution" has merely painted this discussion into a corner, and a very difficult corner at that.

VeryTired
10-04-15, 02:59 PM
dvdnvwls,

Here's an example of why it's a problem when someone says "I am sure that such and such is right"--or wrong as the case may be.

As has been discussed, you have been very sure that a poster in another thread was just wrong about a bunch of things, and not everyone else has been sure you were necessarily right about that. But right now I am sure that you are just wrong in what you are saying about Namazu's heroic efforts to argue for tolerance and fairness and sensitivity for all.

I don't for a minute think that my being sure about this will change your mind, however, even though I could produce a lot of cogent arguments about it. This is how it is with powerful convictions, especially when they involve strong feelings.

To my mind, Namazu did this discussion a very good turn, and made it possible to see how many different points of view expressed here fit together into the spectrum of our opinions. That seems like the opposite of painting a discussion into a corner.

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 03:10 PM
Namazu's magical way of solving this thread seemed brilliant to me. It has taken me a second look (and a third and a fourth look) at it, to realize that it's not "magical" as in "brilliantly innovative", but "magical" as in "involving illusion or sleight-of-hand". :(

Morphing an interesting yet thorny discussion into a feel-good statement that no reasonable person could ever disagree with certainly seems attractive at first, but a closer examination reveals that at best the so-called solution is tangential - and at worst it's misleading, deflecting a potentially transformative and educational discussion into a "safe", sterile, and ultimately ineffectual one.


There is value in what namazu has said, but do we really have the resources to "go there"? At minimum, it would require every one of us to learn and uphold (and our already over-taxed moderators to permanently and consistently enforce) a rigorously pedantic distinction between feeling and opinion. Otherwise we will soon run into the same type of situation again - a poster who says "My feeling is that my spouse is lying about her feelings. Don't you dare say that my feeling that her feelings are invalid is invalid - you'll hurt my feelings!"



tl;dr: I'm afraid that namazu's recent "solution" has merely painted this discussion into a corner, and a very difficult corner at that.

I'm sorry dvd, but I am not understanding what you are trying to say here.

And you are still ONLY referring to that one, very specific instance, and not addressing at all the fact that this has been discussed for a very long time, in a very general way.

I do not understand what the "feel good" statement means, or what you mean by "no reasonable person could ever disagree with"? Why would discussions be transformed into ineffectual ones?

Oh, I forgot to ask. what does tl;dr mean? I have seen it a few times now.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 03:27 PM
tl;dr means Too Long, Didn't Read. It was originally posted on discussion forums by people who didn't bother reading the previous post because it was just a "wall of text" to them. It is now also often used by a person who makes a long(ish) post that people might not read, to try to sum up their point in a few words.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 03:33 PM
There is no "general instance" for us to refer to. The specific instances that have been real problems have never been about what namazu has said they're about.

The way this thread has recently been "brilliantly solved" (to much applause and admiration) is merely by pretending it was about something else all along. It wasn't about something else all along. The applauders need to sit down and take another look.


Does that make more sense?

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 03:42 PM
There is no "general instance" for us to refer to. The specific instances that have been real problems have never been about what namazu has said they're about.

The way this thread has recently been "brilliantly solved" (to much applause and admiration) is merely by pretending it was about something else all along. It wasn't about something else all along. The applauders need to sit down and take another look.


Does that make more sense?

I am just not seeing it.

We have been talking about things that have happened in the past, that we were repeatedly told, and many of us just did not understand, at all, what they were referring to. The "lack of support", "non-adhders made to feel unwelcome", "non-adhders made to feel like their experiences were not valid".

It was from SEVERAL people, not just about ONE particular poster. Namzu gave examples to point out SOME of the instances.

There certainly IS other, ongoing "stuff" happening on the forums, but THIS particular discussion was started to address those FEW, very specific things.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 03:45 PM
You know what?

There are lots of non-ADHDers whose opinions of their experiences are not valid. (and lots of ADHDers, too.)

There are lots of non-ADHDers who in my opinion ought not to be welcome here. (and lots of ADHDers, too.)

There. I said it. (again?)

Little Missy
10-04-15, 03:48 PM
so what is the bottom line?

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 03:56 PM
You know what?

There are lots of non-ADHDers whose opinions of their experiences are not valid. (and lots of ADHDers, too.)

There are lots of non-ADHDers who in my opinion ought not to be welcome here. (and lots of ADHDers, too.)

There. I said it. (again?)

Yes, you have said it again.

And still, non-adhd partners that come here seeking support do deserve the courtesy of having their feelings acknowledged, AND they deserve to have no one make assumptions about what their capabilities are.

Once they have received that courtesy, it is on them how they respond.

If they are like that one poster that seems to be the currently held example, then no, general respect for him AND his attitude will be lost. Yes, some will still see him in a different way. Yes, they will still converse with him.

He did not stick around, that was HIS choice.

You and I are STILL here, still talking to each other, with respect, and courtesy. We are still TRYING to understand each other. Our choice.

BellaVita
10-04-15, 04:01 PM
This thread is like the energizer bunny, it just keeps on going.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 04:19 PM
Yes, you have said it again.

And still, non-adhd partners that come here seeking support do deserve the courtesy of having their feelings acknowledged, AND they deserve to have no one make assumptions about what their capabilities are.

Once they have received that courtesy, it is on them how they respond.

If they are like that one poster that seems to be the currently held example, then no, general respect for him AND his attitude will be lost. Yes, some will still see him in a different way. Yes, they will still converse with him.

He did not stick around, that was HIS choice.

You and I are STILL here, still talking to each other, with respect, and courtesy. We are still TRYING to understand each other. Our choice.
Yes, you're right.

Was it wrong to lose respect for him?

I have sometimes lost respect for others too.

I think I'm being told (by others, not by you) that losing respect for a thoughtless moron is a no-no.

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 04:32 PM
Yes, you're right.

Was it wrong to lose respect for him?

I have sometimes lost respect for others too.

I think I'm being told (by others, not by you) that losing respect for a thoughtless moron is a no-no.

I lost respect for him, and very quickly. I do think he has a poor way of communicating, and that, along with his appaling attitude towards his wife, was enough for me to stop trying very hard to be understanding.

Maybe, what you are being told is not so much that you are expected to maintain respect, no matter what, but that you should back away from people like this, when it's just not possible to say anything productive. And by not possible, I mean because the person is so distasteful to you there just isn't anymore that is not negative to say.

I tend to stick around in instances when I KNOW I should back away. It is like a train wreck, I just have to go back and see.

I do now see, though, certain times when I am guilty of trivializing some people's feelings. I will have to work on that. I will never be able, however, to have a continued warm fuzzy attitude towards folk like that man.

namazu
10-04-15, 04:32 PM
Oh okay, I thought that pointing out that someone needs to treat their ADHD partner in a different, more understanding way was being discouraged. I thought the thing being pushed here is that non-ADHD'ers want us to understand them from their perspective and provide insight from their perspective, and not ours. I thought our perspective was being discouraged. And that we are supposed to try to "fit in" with the NTs.
Nope -- it would be silly to ask you to give advice from a perspective other than your own!

But I do think it's reasonable for ADHDers who choose to participate in this section of the forums to try -- though it is difficult -- to put ourselves in the non-ADHDer's position to at least get a sense of where they're coming from before turning it around and giving advice from our perspective as ADHDers.

I have never thought that a non-ADHD partner is just "hurting their parter for sport"
No, I didn't mean you did this specifically, but others have sometimes accused the non-ADHDers of behaving in this way (perhaps even accurately, though I suspect more often inaccurately), or of not listening to our suggestions because they really don't want to understand ADHD, or whatever, which I don't think is necessarily fair to them.

and I also don't see people who post there as "faceless, alien "NT"'.
I'm not sure where you got that idea. :scratch:
You and other participants have sometimes made assertions or assumptions about how easy it is for "NT"s to do certain things (such as deal with emotional issues), without realizing that it's not necessarily easy for them, or said things to emphasize how very different they are from us. That's not a condemnation of you, just an assumption that might be worth questioning. All I'm saying is that we should acknowledge first and foremost that they're human beings, just like us (even if they don't share the ADHD part or other diagnoses), and they can be hurt and upset and frustrated, too, and we should keep that in mind when responding. That they're having a tough time, too. That's all.



dvdnvwls, sleight of hand certainly wasn't my intent. Nor was it my intent to legislate how people should behave -- just to suggest some possible ways around the problems that others have noted, of non-ADHDers feeling not-listened-to and unwelcome here (even when they're not that guy, which they generally aren't), or of ADHDers feeling like they were being told to shut up and go home or that their insights weren't welcome.

What are your suggestions for making the non-ADHD partner forum a welcoming place to those who need support, while not silencing the voices of people with ADHD (besides, say, banning or hounding anyone whose posts fail to meet your standards of validity and worthiness)?

By the way, I also didn't mean to imply that you're somehow wrong to lose respect for someone based on their posts or behavior. I personally feel that your standards are unusually stringent, but hey, that's how you roll. But if you've lost respect for someone you believe to be a "thoughtless moron" (your words), why continue to hound them? You've said yourself that you want to make such people feel unwelcome, and are proud to do so -- which is different from simply losing your cool after becoming frustrated. To me, it seems futile, and I believe it contributes to a negativity that extends far beyond the boundaries of the threads and "thoughtless morons" you see fit to berate.

BellaVita
10-04-15, 05:01 PM
Nope -- it would be silly to ask you to give advice from a perspective other than your own!

But I do think it's reasonable for ADHDers who choose to participate in this section of the forums to try -- though it is difficult -- to put ourselves in the non-ADHDer's position to at least get a sense of where they're coming from before turning it around and giving advice from our perspective as ADHDers.

I am not sure how those two paragraphs do not conflict with each other? :scratch:

No, I didn't mean you did this specifically, but others have sometimes accused the non-ADHDers of behaving in this way (perhaps even accurately, though I suspect more often inaccurately), or of not listening to our suggestions because they really don't want to understand ADHD, or whatever, which I don't think is necessarily fair to them.

Ah, okay. I guess since it was in response to me I thought you were referring to me. Sorry about that.

You and other participants have sometimes made assertions or assumptions about how easy it is for "NT"s to do certain things (such as deal with emotional issues), without realizing that it's not necessarily easy for them, or said things to emphasize how very different they are from us. That's not a condemnation of you, just an assumption that might be worth questioning. All I'm saying is that we should acknowledge first and foremost that they're human beings, just like us (even if they don't share the ADHD part or other diagnoses), and they can be hurt and upset and frustrated, too, and we should keep that in mind when responding. That they're having a tough time, too. That's all.

Oh, I know for sure they can be hurt, frustrated, upset, etc. etc. I do not take back what I said about their emotional regulation being better than ours, and in a way that makes things easier for them. Perhaps I worded my original post the wrong way.

I also think my brain works differently than some in how I evaluate situations, I partially evaluate things on who seems to be exhibiting emotional distress, the intensity of it, and the possible reasons behind it. I have also always viewed things analytically, so I know that those with ADHD have it harder in the areas of emotional regulation, attention, focus, and this is shown by the impairment which is required for diagnosis.

I do see that many non-ADHD'ers have the ability to self-soothe and calm down, "turn down the volume" on their emotions, while people with ADHD do not have this.

So, that is basically all I meant by what I said.

I'm still not getting how this translates into "faceless, alien "NT".

And they are very different from me at least, that has been made evident to me all of my life - I have always been an outcast and treated like I am weird and the ones who were more neurodiverse were the ones who were more accepting of me.

I don't mean any of this in a bad way, not saying neurodiverse are better, it's just been my experience.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 05:19 PM
I lost respect for him, and very quickly. I do think he has a poor way of communicating, and that, along with his appaling attitude towards his wife, was enough for me to stop trying very hard to be understanding.

Maybe, what you are being told is not so much that you are expected to maintain respect, no matter what, but that you should back away from people like this, when it's just not possible to say anything productive. And by not possible, I mean because the person is so distasteful to you there just isn't anymore that is not negative to say.

I tend to stick around in instances when I KNOW I should back away. It is like a train wreck, I just have to go back and see.

I do now see, though, certain times when I am guilty of trivializing some people's feelings. I will have to work on that. I will never be able, however, to have a continued warm fuzzy attitude towards folk like that man.
Backing away is, to me, not a morally acceptable option in a situation like that. Why would I back away when someone is being mistreated for flimsy and false reasons? Why would I back away when I am the one speaking sensibly and telling the truth? Why not (as happened on an unfortunate discussion thread) wait for him to back away?

I back away when I don't understand.

When I do understand, and when it's also clear that the person I'm talking to doesn't understand, I am neither inclined nor persuaded that it would be better for me to bow out of a discussion.

There is no sensible reason why a person who at least knows something should be expected as a matter of course to defer to a person who clearly does not.

This is a situation of reverse discrimination, essentially. When I encounter a stupid person, I'm supposed to let him believe he's right. I have no incentive to do that, because I don't care for his approval. This is a discussion forum; sometimes there are things to discuss. It isn't a mutual appreciation society or a cocktail hour.

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 05:24 PM
Backing away is, to me, not a morally acceptable option in a situation like that. Why would I back away when someone is being mistreated for flimsy and false reasons? Why would I back away when I am the one speaking sensibly and telling the truth? Why not (as happened on an unfortunate discussion thread) wait for him to back away?

I back away when I don't understand.

When I do understand, and when it's also clear that the person I'm talking to doesn't understand, I am neither inclined nor persuaded that it would be better for me to bow out of a discussion.

There is no sensible reason why a person who at least knows something should be expected as a matter of course to defer to a person who clearly does not.

I happen to agree with you, and I am one that tends to stick around long after the possibility of respecting some folk have passed.

It will stick in my craw to back away, BUT! if a moderator asks me to, I'll probably do it out of respect for the forum and the moderator. Notice I said "probably".

namazu
10-04-15, 05:29 PM
I am not sure how those two paragraphs do not conflict with each other? :scratch:
Trying to see a situation from someone else's perspective doesn't mean you can't still share your own perspective. That's why they don't conflict.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 05:29 PM
If anyone now participating on this thread had come on that other thread and said "Look, dvdnvwls, he is being respectful to her - let me show you..." I would have been very receptive to that. No one yet, even having had a week or more to examine the conversation, has been able to do that.

BellaVita
10-04-15, 05:32 PM
Trying to see a situation from someone else's perspective doesn't mean you can't still share your own perspective. That's why they don't conflict.

Some of us are not so capable of doing that, it is ableist to assume all forum members have that ability.

I still want to help though, because I can share from the perspective that I relate to and I think that it can be helpful.

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 05:35 PM
I looked from bu11frog's perspective. I saw immediately that his perspective was intelligible only on the assumption that his wife was a lazy irresponsible liar.

OK, maybe she is.

If she is, he won't accomplish anything asking questions on an ADHD forum.

If she's not, then my responses to him make sense.

namazu
10-04-15, 05:37 PM
There is no sensible reason why a person who at least knows something should be expected as a matter of course to defer to a person who clearly does not.

This is a situation of reverse discrimination, essentially. When I encounter a stupid person, I'm supposed to let him believe he's right. I have no incentive to do that, because I don't care for his approval. This is a discussion forum; sometimes there are things to discuss. It isn't a mutual appreciation society or a cocktail hour.
Defer? No. Make your case!

...But if the person is too "stupid" to understand your point, and you've already made your point for all to see, and the truth is so clear, and so obvious (as you seem to believe it often is), then what's the point of continuing to argue with the "stupid" person? You're not going to convince the "stupid" person of your point, and everyone else will already have had a chance to see that you're right and they're wrong.

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 05:38 PM
Trying to see a situation from someone else's perspective doesn't mean you can't still share your own perspective. That's why they don't conflict.

It can be darn near impossible to see perspective from another view, when the 2 views are so VASTLY different.

One thing that has been clear to me in this thread, is the difference in how people think and perceive things.

(from my personal perspective)
I think verytired and I are the only non-adhd posters here, and we seem to understand each other fairly easily.

For the ones with adhd, it is not so easy to understand vt and I, BUT they understand each other much easier.

I think we are ALL doing a stellar job of finding ways of effectively communicating with each other.

namazu
10-04-15, 05:40 PM
Some of us are not so capable of doing that, it is ableist to assume all forum members have that ability.

I still want to help though, because I can share from the perspective that I relate to and I think that it can be helpful.
Yes -- as I said above, I don't think "seeing things from someone else's perspective" is easy, or always possible, but it can be valuable when it is possible.

But even if we can see things from others' perspectives, that still doesn't mean we can't share our own perspective.

namazu
10-04-15, 05:41 PM
It can be darn near impossible to see perspective from another view, when the 2 views are so VASTLY different.

One thing that has been clear to me in this thread, is the difference in how people think and perceive things.

(from my personal perspective)
I think verytired and I are the only non-adhd posters here, and we seem to understand each other fairly easily.

For the ones with adhd, it is not so easy to understand vt and I, BUT they understand each other much easier.

I think we are ALL doing a stellar job of finding ways of effectively communicating with each other.
I'm not sure I understand anyone anymore!

Luvmybully
10-04-15, 05:45 PM
I'm not sure I understand anyone anymore!

I hope I didn't add to that!

:grouphug:

BellaVita
10-04-15, 05:46 PM
Yes -- as I said above, I don't think "seeing things from someone else's perspective" is easy, or always possible, but it can be valuable when it is possible.

But even if we can see things from others' perspectives, that still doesn't mean we can't share our own perspective.

Okay, good. :)

Cuz trust me, I win the award for "person who sucks at seeing things from others perspectives especially in real time"

But I still have lots of empathy, and being able to participate in a place where my intellectual disabilities don't make me automatically cast out of the discussion is very relieving.

I just hope that my perspective, knowing what ADHD is like, can help someone else somewhere out there - even the non-ADHD partner.

namazu
10-04-15, 05:48 PM
I just hope that my perspective, knowing what ADHD is like, can help someone else somewhere out there - even the non-ADHD partner.
I think it can and does.

Unmanagable
10-04-15, 05:48 PM
This quote sums it all up in my brain, more often than not, most especially in text, behind a screen:

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.” ~Robert McCloskey

dvdnvwls
10-04-15, 05:49 PM
Defer? No. Make your case!

...But if the person is too "stupid" to understand your point, and you've already made your point for all to see, and the truth is so clear, and so obvious (as you seem to believe it often is), then what's the point of continuing to argue with the "stupid" person? You're not going to convince the "stupid" person of your point, and everyone else will already have had a chance to see that you're right and they're wrong.
I'm interested in actually assisting that person to see what is really going on. If my contribution was limited to scoring points on a debate card, I'd never participate in the first place.

BellaVita
10-04-15, 05:50 PM
It can be darn near impossible to see perspective from another view, when the 2 views are so VASTLY different.

One thing that has been clear to me in this thread, is the difference in how people think and perceive things.

(from my personal perspective)
I think verytired and I are the only non-adhd posters here, and we seem to understand each other fairly easily.

For the ones with adhd, it is not so easy to understand vt and I, BUT they understand each other much easier.

I think we are ALL doing a stellar job of finding ways of effectively communicating with each other.

Haha yes you make good observations!

I was even wondering to myself if there is some sort of "non-ADHD" code that you all have. ;)

I think it is fascinating how we all think differently and how we have different mental processes.

namazu
10-04-15, 05:53 PM
I'm interested in actually assisting that person to see what is really going on. If my contribution was limited to scoring points on a debate card, I'd never participate in the first place.

So, again -- if you've made your point, once, maybe twice, and the truth is "clear" and "obvious", and you've decided the other poster is "stupid" and their views are "invalid" and "worthless", then how is insulting the poster likely to "assist that person to see what is really going on"?

BellaVita
10-04-15, 05:54 PM
So, again -- if you've made your point, once, maybe twice, and the truth is "clear" and "obvious", and you've decided the other poster is "stupid" and their views are "invalid" and "worthless", then how is insulting the poster likely to "assist that person to see what is really going on"?

I might be wrong, but I think he was referring to the part before any insulting. :)

VeryTired
10-04-15, 07:29 PM
dvd--

You are so emphatic that the thing we should be discussing here is the thread of the guy whose wife was slow doing chores. That's what YOU think is important. But this thread isn't meant to be exclusively or specifically about his thread. This thread was posted to address a larger question of what the purpose of the Non-ADD Partner Support board is, war expectations we all have of it, and how we have all been using it. Your keep bringing the discussion back to the one thing you think matters, which means you aren't open to considering other and larger points.

But OK, let's talk about the one thread you want to discuss. I didn't try to show you how it was possible that bu11frog wasn't abusive of his wife because you are so damn emphatic that you know the truth that it seems pointless to get into that with you. I haven't re-read that thread recently, but I am not sure bu11frog ever even used the word 'lying' about his wife. All of your comments there seemed to be tend toward the inflammatory and extreme. I don't think that's helpful.

It is always possibly (if unlikely) that bu11frog's assessment of his wife was accurate. It's conceivable that she is inconsiderate, irresponsible, selfish and unreasonable--why not? Some people, even people with ADHD, have those unpleasant characteristics.

It is also possible that bu11frog was honestly mistaken about his wife (perhaps because he himself was hurt and confused and scared). You said "I saw immediately that his perspective was intelligible only on the assumption that his wife was a lazy irresponsible liar." Well, that's your opinion but I disagree. I think a lot of other possibilities exist and you are being rigid and unimaginative about this because you feel so strongly. Of course you may well be right about him, but you are NOT right that NO other assumption is possible.

I say that because I have had similar fears and concerns about my partner to bu11frog's. I wouldn't express them the way he did, but I have felt panic fear, I have felt trapped and overwhelmed, I have felt confused and manipulated … all kinds of other awful things, as a result of my partner's slowness and reluctance to participate in lots of vital household tasks, especially after promising to do so. I don't think I am abusive of him or even disrespectful because I have been upset and confused and worried about the problem. And I can imagine that bu11frog could be a perfectly decent guy who genuinely doesn't understand how his wife's ADHD affects her ability to do the things he mentioned.

Also, there's been a fair amount of talk about people with ADHD needing to be emphatic and emotional in how they express themselves, even if they upset other people's sensibilities. Well, isn't bu11frog someone with ADHD? and so perhaps his description of his concerns about his wife fall into that category.

Dvdnvwls, you asked why no one responded to you on that thread to show how bu11frog was actually respectful of his wife. How can we? We don't know their relationship--all we have is his posts. I am not sure we can draw conclusions at all based upon them. Anyway, my point all along has been that showing you this probably shouldn't have been required. Why do we have to meet your standard for his conduct? The point of bu11frog's thread was for us to engage with his situation, not for us to imagine Mrs. bu11frog's situation and sympathize with it. If she posts, sure, we can address her feelings--but she wasn't here and bu11frog was.

It kind of sounds in this whole discussion as though you are adamant about not considering any of the other points of view that are being expressed. That surprises me--it's not like you as I have come to know you here. I am very willing to say that it's possible your interpretations are correct, and that I think I know why you feel as you do, and that I respect your point of view. But you keep saying that only your point of view is right, and suggesting that people who don't meet your standards shouldn't be at ADDF. That seems unreasonable to me.

You are one of the people whose posts here I have respected most, but I think your stance in this thread is far less helpful than your many other excellent contributions. It's not that I wish you agreed with me. Rather, I wish you seemed to accept the potential validity of opinions other than your own about these matters.

BellaVita
10-04-15, 07:56 PM
The point of bu11frog's thread was for us to engage with his situation, not for us to imagine Mrs. bu11frog's situation and sympathize with it. If she posts, sure, we can address her feelings--but she wasn't here and bu11frog was.

I am pretty sure we did engage with his situation.

In responding to his situation, it was important for us to point out that him saying his wife had "anxiety" and the fact that he wasn't even making an attempt to see that she could be suffering (like how he went on and on about how everybody likes her at her job so therefore no anxiety should exist, and putting quotes around anxiety does make it seem very clear that he didn't believe her - he even confirmed his use of the quotes) was probably leading to misunderstanding and making things worse for everyone in the relationship.

I think it's pretty hard not to sympathize with his wife, after the awful things he said about her.

We know what it's like to get called lazy, or that we are making things up, it is only natural for us to respond.

Also - he wanted his wife "fixed" like a car, he literally said that, so responding with advice about his wife wasn't far off from what he was asking.

BellaVita
10-04-15, 08:34 PM
For all of those wondering about the bu11frog situation, here are some direct quotes that he said:
bu11frog:
"She'll spend three hours "cleaning the kitchen", and I'll go back through and see that only the countertops (10 ft total) got touched."

"She works a job that is only 35 hours a week that is close to where we live (and she only works nine months out of the year), whereas I have a full-time job 30 miles away, a part-time job (that requires a lot of travel), plus maintain the outside of our house and property (a two story home on three acres)....all while she complains about how busy she is..."

"She is always very tired (often goes to bed at 11pm or later), spent the entire summer having "anxiety" about her job (which I've heard everyone there likes her), and often refuses help from the kids or myself."

"I found some supplements that seem to work really good for her (and they worked well for my ADD too), but she either forgets or "forgets" to take them."

"It has been a frustrating situation for me in that, before we got married, I talked to her about all the things I wanted to do and experience and now, none of those are possible and I seem to be regulated to a health-care provider to someone who seems unwilling to make even small adjustments."

"As far as her "anxiety", I put them in quotes because I simply do not know if it is real or not."

"And recently he was diagnosed as being "disabled" (I have no idea how) so he gets to stay home and do nothing. "

"Ever since then she's been pushing to be a stay-at-home mom, which we simply cannot afford. It seems that is when the "anxiety" part cropped up, which came about the same time as her second visit to her psychologist. All the while, she seems to have no problem adding more and more burden onto me, either directly or indirectly."

"As far as her weight goes, yeah, I am critical of that for several reasons."

"I try hard not to dissatisfaction with her.. but on top of the ADD, she does have a fair bit of "poor me" syndrome that manifests itself when she doesn't want to do anything."

"As far as her being "lazy", well.. that's actually really tough to say. I think it is better to say that she aspires to be "lazy", but just doesn't have the time for it. If we could financially afford it, I'm sure she would do her best to just sit in front of the TV 24/7."

"When one goes to a mechanic, you don't tell them that the you like the leather seats, or that the tires have good tread on them. You tell the mechanic, to the best of your ability, what is wrong and what doesn't work." (He is talking about his wife)

This isn't a personal attack on bu11frog or anything, just some quotes so others who are confused about that situation can have some specific quotes to see where we are coming from.

Also, the bolding was done by me for emphasis.

Lunacie
10-04-15, 09:10 PM
Here's the last line of bu11fr0g's opening post:

Listen, I love my wife, but I am at the end of my rope. Has anyone run into this themselves? Is there a condition that causes this? Anyone have any other ideas? Every time I try to talk about it, she just chocks up her slowness to do things thoroughly, and just shuts down after that. I have no idea what to do anymore.



We tried to give him what he asked for but every suggested explanation of a
possible cause was shot down or completely ignored.

It became fairly clear that he simply wanted his wife to move faster and be
more productive and didn't really care about why it was happening.

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 11:10 AM
I scanned through the bu11frog thread.... at the beginning people were giving well thought out, potentially constructive advice.

Bu11frog was engaging in positively, even if a couple of people didn't see it that way.

Then things started to slide..... it happened slowly with a few posters but it pulled the thread in a direction that Bu11frog felt was unsupportive and wasn't answering his question.....

sometimes the most difficult thing in these situations is to realise that we are part of the dynamic and if the dynamic is to change, we may have to release strongly held beliefs.... something that even the longest standing members here have difficulty with.

It seemed like a very complex situation, full of subconscious stuff that neither party knew how to bring into awareness.... that kind of process takes a long time and a good therapist. There can be physiological reasons for behaviours, which can be dealt with.... but the way we respond is often associated with deep seated behaviour patterns.

Bu11frog was probably involved in a co-dependent "Game" relationship. (I use the word Game in the psychotherapeutic context.). It takes courage on both sides to bring these behaviours into awareness and choose whether to change them.......

That's probably beyond the scope of this board, however the more of us who do our own work the more likely it is that we can support members like Bu11frog when they appear.

I am continually saddened by the lack of solid psychotherapeutic experience here.... and I sense that many of us have been badly let down by the counselling profession.... but that doesn't mean the underlying theories aren't valid.... and can't be used in a place like this.

That's why I believe that learning about counselling, rather than being in counselling can be a powerful route to personal growth and relational happiness.

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 11:17 AM
Lunacie...... there's a behaviour pattern called "Yes But".

Every suggestion aimed at helping the client is responded to with a counter argument..... the trick is to recognise when this is happening and reflect it back in a way appropriate to the situation.... so that the client recognises that this is happening.....and that they are in an "avoidant" place that often means they are "attached" to their problem in some way....

I am not suggesting this was happening in Bu11frog's thread, but it's worth being aware of.

Lunacie
10-05-15, 12:06 PM
I scanned through the bu11frog thread.... at the beginning people were giving well thought out, potentially constructive advice.

Bu11frog was engaging in positively, even if a couple of people didn't see it that way.

Then things started to slide..... it happened slowly with a few posters but it pulled the thread in a direction that Bu11frog felt was unsupportive and wasn't answering his question.....

sometimes the most difficult thing in these situations is to realise that we are part of the dynamic and if the dynamic is to change, we may have to release strongly held beliefs.... something that even the longest standing members here have difficulty with.

It seemed like a very complex situation, full of subconscious stuff that neither party knew how to bring into awareness.... that kind of process takes a long time and a good therapist. There can be physiological reasons for behaviours, which can be dealt with.... but the way we respond is often associated with deep seated behaviour patterns.

Bu11frog was probably involved in a co-dependent "Game" relationship. (I use the word Game in the psychotherapeutic context.). It takes courage on both sides to bring these behaviours into awareness and choose whether to change them.......

That's probably beyond the scope of this board, however the more of us who do our own work the more likely it is that we can support members like Bu11frog when they appear.

I am continually saddened by the lack of solid psychotherapeutic experience here.... and I sense that many of us have been badly let down by the counselling profession.... but that doesn't mean the underlying theories aren't valid.... and can't be used in a place like this.

That's why I believe that learning about counselling, rather than being in counselling can be a powerful route to personal growth and relational happiness.

This is why I was asking whether there might be another forum somewhere
that would be more supportive for those who don't have adhd themselves
but are living with someone who does.

We find it hard to relate to what they are feeling, and haven't had that experience with counseling to give us a basis for doing that.

I've met with 6 or 7 counselors or therapists and only 2 of them were helpful,
not coming from a perspective of "here's how you fix yourself, now do it" or
invalidation "there's no reason for you to feel like something is wrong."

I've definately gotten more support and a better understanding from being
a member of this forum, and learned a heck of a lot more too.

BellaVita
10-05-15, 12:16 PM
We aren't therapists. And I think, given bu11frog's responses, we did pretty good.

I feel like an impossible standard is being set here.

I mean....look at the things that were said. Like really look. And then look at our responses. I say, we responded pretty mild compared to what he said if you ask me.

And he was responding positively until he found out that no, we weren't going to just shut up and agree with him that his wife is lazy. (He even said she had unmedicated ADHD and a thyroid issue but kept avoiding those issues when we tried to discuss them - we were just responding to his questions in the OP!)

He didn't even really consider the things we were saying, because he just went right back to blaming his wife again. He totally dismissed everything we were saying. I even did a long thorough response towards the end listing possible reasons again about why his wife might be acting the way she was, where I listed all of the reasons stated in the thread.

Nope, not good enough. Not worth considering. He got angry and left.

BellaVita
10-05-15, 12:24 PM
We're getting blamed, once again, for not responding "good enough" even when the person we were responding to said mean thing after mean thing, I am sick and tired of it.

Also, there's a difference between being rude and being firm, I think towards the end many of us were trying to firmly say what needed to be said so that hopefully he could see that what was being said was serious.

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 01:15 PM
Then things started to slide..... it happened slowly with a few posters but it pulled the thread in a direction that Bu11frog felt was unsupportive and wasn't answering his question.....
Of course it was unsupportive! Why would any sensible person support Bu11frog's demonstrated attitude to his wife's situation? In fact, if he had ended up feeling supported in the attitude he had, I would have been ashamed to see it happen.

Sometimes what a person wants is not what they need. Surely you know that.

I saw being unsupportive to Bu11frog as clearly my duty.

Like this:

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

The word "evil" is too strong, but you get the point.

Lunacie
10-05-15, 01:15 PM
Lunacie...... there's a behaviour pattern called "Yes But".

Every suggestion aimed at helping the client is responded to with a counter argument..... the trick is to recognise when this is happening and reflect it back in a way appropriate to the situation.... so that the client recognises that this is happening.....and that they are in an "avoidant" place that often means they are "attached" to their problem in some way....

I am not suggesting this was happening in Bu11frog's thread, but it's worth being aware of.

Yes, I've learned to recognize the "yes but ..." syndrome. But I have no idea
how to reflect it back and help the person look at things differently.

So I just get frustrated. And I find it very difficult to just walk away.

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 01:36 PM
When a new person arrives here describing how they are abusing stimulant medication, and that new person receives no support, regular members write harsh and dismissive responses to them, and regular members issue the person direct commands on the order of "Act differently now, or else!", no one questions forum members' behaviour for even a moment.

But if they're treating a person badly, instead of a bottle of pills, then suddenly I'm expected to defer to their judgment?

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 01:43 PM
I think towards the end many of us were trying to firmly say what needed to be said so that hopefully he could see that what was being said was serious.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here..... I've bolded firmly because that's where I feel the problem may lie.

I feel it's OK to be firm..... but only after a solid relationship has been built with the other people in the conversation. Being "firm" before this has happened can come across as being aggressive and confrontational.

If being firm and direct is part of one's style then learning to dial it back in the early part of relationship building means the advice you're giving is more likely to be accepted.

The objective is to get at least a part of what you're saying past the other persons defences.... there's a time for directness and a time for gentleness..... we won't get it right all the time, but learning when we mess up helps us grow.

Recognising defensive gambits like "Yes But" as defences against fear and vulnerability means we don't get frustrated and increasingly "direct" when someone uses them.

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 01:48 PM
dvd--

You are so emphatic that the thing we should be discussing here is the thread of the guy whose wife was slow doing chores. That's what YOU think is important. But this thread isn't meant to be exclusively or specifically about his thread. This thread was posted to address a larger question of what the purpose of the Non-ADD Partner Support board is, war expectations we all have of it, and how we have all been using it. Your keep bringing the discussion back to the one thing you think matters, which means you aren't open to considering other and larger points.

But OK, let's talk about the one thread you want to discuss. I didn't try to show you how it was possible that bu11frog wasn't abusive of his wife because you are so damn emphatic that you know the truth that it seems pointless to get into that with you. I haven't re-read that thread recently, but I am not sure bu11frog ever even used the word 'lying' about his wife. All of your comments there seemed to be tend toward the inflammatory and extreme. I don't think that's helpful.

It is always possibly (if unlikely) that bu11frog's assessment of his wife was accurate. It's conceivable that she is inconsiderate, irresponsible, selfish and unreasonable--why not? Some people, even people with ADHD, have those unpleasant characteristics.

It is also possible that bu11frog was honestly mistaken about his wife (perhaps because he himself was hurt and confused and scared). You said "I saw immediately that his perspective was intelligible only on the assumption that his wife was a lazy irresponsible liar." Well, that's your opinion but I disagree. I think a lot of other possibilities exist and you are being rigid and unimaginative about this because you feel so strongly. Of course you may well be right about him, but you are NOT right that NO other assumption is possible.

I say that because I have had similar fears and concerns about my partner to bu11frog's. I wouldn't express them the way he did, but I have felt panic fear, I have felt trapped and overwhelmed, I have felt confused and manipulated … all kinds of other awful things, as a result of my partner's slowness and reluctance to participate in lots of vital household tasks, especially after promising to do so. I don't think I am abusive of him or even disrespectful because I have been upset and confused and worried about the problem. And I can imagine that bu11frog could be a perfectly decent guy who genuinely doesn't understand how his wife's ADHD affects her ability to do the things he mentioned.

Also, there's been a fair amount of talk about people with ADHD needing to be emphatic and emotional in how they express themselves, even if they upset other people's sensibilities. Well, isn't bu11frog someone with ADHD? and so perhaps his description of his concerns about his wife fall into that category.

Dvdnvwls, you asked why no one responded to you on that thread to show how bu11frog was actually respectful of his wife. How can we? We don't know their relationship--all we have is his posts. I am not sure we can draw conclusions at all based upon them. Anyway, my point all along has been that showing you this probably shouldn't have been required. Why do we have to meet your standard for his conduct? The point of bu11frog's thread was for us to engage with his situation, not for us to imagine Mrs. bu11frog's situation and sympathize with it. If she posts, sure, we can address her feelings--but she wasn't here and bu11frog was.

It kind of sounds in this whole discussion as though you are adamant about not considering any of the other points of view that are being expressed. That surprises me--it's not like you as I have come to know you here. I am very willing to say that it's possible your interpretations are correct, and that I think I know why you feel as you do, and that I respect your point of view. But you keep saying that only your point of view is right, and suggesting that people who don't meet your standards shouldn't be at ADDF. That seems unreasonable to me.

You are one of the people whose posts here I have respected most, but I think your stance in this thread is far less helpful than your many other excellent contributions. It's not that I wish you agreed with me. Rather, I wish you seemed to accept the potential validity of opinions other than your own about these matters.
I accept the potential validity. I examine the potential validity. I find it sorely lacking in substance. I'm sorry.

My emphasis on observing a "real live discussion thread" is to counter a tendency in this thread to veer into abstract and unrealistic characterizations of what actually goes on in forum discussions. A general "people are feeling unsupported" tone does nothing to remedy real issues in real discussions.

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 01:52 PM
I think you've hit the nail on the head here..... I've bolded firmly because that's where I feel the problem may lie.

I feel it's OK to be firm..... but only after a solid relationship has been built with the other people in the conversation. Being "firm" before this has happened can come across as being aggressive and confrontational.

If being firm and direct is part of one's style then learning to dial it back in the early part of relationship building means the advice you're giving is more likely to be accepted.

The objective is to get at least a part of what you're saying past the other persons defences.... there's a time for directness and a time for gentleness..... we won't get it right all the time, but learning when we mess up helps us grow.

Recognising defensive gambits like "Yes But" as defences against fear and vulnerability means we don't get frustrated and increasingly "direct" when someone uses them.
I am not a therapist. I won't realistically become one, nor will I realistically be able to take training in that field. I can't be expected to know all the particulars. Having a staff of trained therapists working here for free would be (at the very least) odd and unexpected.

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 01:55 PM
Sometimes what a person wants is not what they need. Surely you know that.
Yes I do..... however that doesn't mean I try to batter down their defences with increasing firepower.... I also try to keep in mind that if I have a firm idea about what they "need" it's likely to be off the mark.

I saw being unsupportive to Bu11frog as clearly my duty.

Decades of psychotherapeutic research indicates that being "supportive".... ie showing acceptance, genuineness and empathy for the person behind the behaviour is far more likely to effect change than trying to batter down someones defences with increasing verbal firepower.

If you're not getting through to someone.... try stepping back..... and finding a new approach.... by entering a dialogue of respect with the person.... as a person.

Not always easy.... and if you can't do it.... just step right back.

That's the bit that i struggle with.... I suspect like many people here... knowing when to walk away.... before I completely destroy whatever relationship might have been there.

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 01:58 PM
Yes I do..... however that doesn't mean I try to batter down their defences with increasing firepower.... I also try to keep in mind that if I have a firm idea about what they "need" it's likely to be off the mark.



Decades of psychotherapeutic research indicates that being "supportive".... ie showing acceptance, genuineness and empathy for the person behind the behaviour is far more likely to effect change than trying to batter down someones defences with increasing verbal firepower.

If you're not getting through to someone.... try stepping back..... and finding a new approach.... by entering a dialogue of respect with the person.... as a person.

Not always easy.... and if you can't do it.... just step right back.

That's the bit that i struggle with.... I suspect like many people here... knowing when to walk away.... before I completely destroy whatever relationship might have been there.
I'm not a therapist. I'm not interested in forming a relationship with every person who posts a thought or asks a question. I'm aware that technically every interaction is a relationship yada yada yada... and I'm still not interested. I'm not a therapist.


Also... the number of times when my thoughts have "hit a brick wall" and been soundly rejected by others, and in which I learned something important from that encounter, are numerous and important.

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 02:00 PM
I am not a therapist. I won't realistically become one, nor will I realistically be able to take training in that field. I can't be expected to know all the particulars.

Why not....???

If I can do it.... I suspect you can too.....

Just depends how much you are attached to where you are now..... and how much you value the places you could go from here.

Maybe right now you don't have the cash, or are living somewhere it's difficult to access education.... but in the future... who knows?

People who knew me a decade ago would have snorted into their beer if I'd said I was going to train as a therapist.....

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 02:02 PM
If you're not interested in forming a relationship in even a tenuous form when you reply to a post.... then take a long hard look at why you're replying....

namazu
10-05-15, 02:05 PM
Why not....???

If I can do it.... I suspect you can too.....
Can is not necessarily the issue...

Some of us have other callings in life, other interests.

Some of us have paying jobs we're not inclined to quit, some of us are training in other (worthwhile) fields, and some of us are unable to work.

I've disagreed with dvdnvwls plenty, but I'm with him on this one -- we're not all therapists, and we shouldn't be expected to be. There may be a lot we can learn from therapists in how to approach situations more productively, but we're not all therapists, and we're not going to become therapists.

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 02:06 PM
If you're not interested in forming a relationship in even a tenuous form when you reply to a post.... then take a long hard look at why you're replying....
I meant to refer to a lasting therapeutic alliance etc.

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 02:07 PM
Why not....???

If I can do it.... I suspect you can too.....

Just depends how much you are attached to where you are now.....
If you're willing to significantly supplement my income while I go and study, then I'm ready as soon as the money reaches my account. :)

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 02:28 PM
I don't mean for people to become therapists... I feel that doing the odd training weekend or retreat is not beyond most people..... and would make a big positive difference for many people.....

Surprisingly I'm not pro professional therapists, too many of them are mad as a box of frogs....

but I am 100% in favour of becoming ones own therapist..... which is what I'm getting at here.

sarahsweets
10-05-15, 02:31 PM
Bu11frog was engaging in positively, even if a couple of people didn't see it that way. Even though its been stated in this thread that its not about that particular thread, I still dont see how you can see any of what bullfrog wrote as positive.


sometimes the most difficult thing in these situations is to realise that we are part of the dynamic and if the dynamic is to change, we may have to release strongly held beliefs.... something that even the longest standing members here have difficulty with.
Again, even though this thread isnt about that one, I dont think characterizing someone's nasty sentiment is considered a strongly held belief, or refuting it.

It seemed like a very complex situation, full of subconscious stuff that neither party knew how to bring into awareness.... that kind of process takes a long time and a good therapist. There can be physiological reasons for behaviours, which can be dealt with.... but the way we respond is often associated with deep seated behaviour patterns.
Sometimes we respond a certain way because there is a clear right or wrong way to respond.

Bu11frog was probably involved in a co-dependent "Game" relationship. (I use the word Game in the psychotherapeutic context.). It takes courage on both sides to bring these behaviours into awareness and choose whether to change them.......
You said yourself there was stuff on a subconscious level that both parties were unaware of, so this sort of conjecture, I feel is stretching things a bit.

That's probably beyond the scope of this board, however the more of us who do our own work the more likely it is that we can support members like Bu11frog when they appear.

I am continually saddened by the lack of solid psychotherapeutic experience here.... and I sense that many of us have been badly let down by the counselling profession.... but that doesn't mean the underlying theories aren't valid.... and can't be used in a place like this.
I am going to assume you didnt mean for this to sound the way it did, but no offense...I take issue with it. To say something is beyond the scope of this board is dismissive at the very least. And to assume there is a lack or or little to no psychotherapeutic experience isnt fair either, and not everyone who hates counseling had bad counselors. There are many reasons people are not open to therapy.
I am not an expert, but I have a minor in psychology. All that means for me, is a pretty decent understanding of psychology and people. What I dont do however, is constantly tell people how their psychology is clouding their logic, or imply that people somehow dont understand the inferences or implications of stuff other people said.
That's why I believe that learning about counselling, rather than being in counselling can be a powerful route to personal growth and relational happiness.
Yes learning about counseling is good for personal growth. Being in counseling is too. I guess by this reasoning I am a double whammy because I studied in that field and have been in it as well.
All I am trying to say is, it sounds kinda like you are lecturing or even chastizing people for having feelings and reacting. Not everything is 100% traceable to one's personal knowledge of the psychology field, or related to how much you read about it, or how much youve experienced it first hand. Sometimes things are just...human.
And btw, this has nothing to do with how I feel about you personally.I do not dislike you by any means, I have just come across a couple of times in threads where this sort of stuff is brought up.

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 02:34 PM
How should I distinguish "becoming my own therapist" from "becoming an irresponsible therapist who knows only enough to help myself and suddenly feel mysteriously qualified to misdiagnose other people's problems"?

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 02:48 PM
How should I distinguish "becoming my own therapist" from "becoming an irresponsible therapist who knows only enough to help myself and suddenly feel mysteriously qualified to misdiagnose other people's problems"?

If you know enough to help yourself.... you'll probably know enough to support other people.

You might not know enough to support everyone, or even most people.... but you'll also know enough to know that's part of the process and not get stressed by it.

Part of being human is to have this stuff going on.... which metaphors we use to describe it is personal.... but what is universal is the underlying experience.

Some people get turned off by the theory..... but in my experience the ADHD people I've worked with find the theory side gives them a greater handle on things, and links them to the rest of humanity instead of concentrating on the differences....

plus the autisticy ones seem to like the structure of the metaphors and get more from that then the more conventional therapy techniques....

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 02:54 PM
So... I've done that. Thanks. Let's just say my therapeutic orientation is not exactly the same as yours, and carry on. If that's OK with you.

BellaVita
10-05-15, 03:02 PM
I think you've hit the nail on the head here..... I've bolded firmly because that's where I feel the problem may lie.

I feel it's OK to be firm..... but only after a solid relationship has been built with the other people in the conversation. Being "firm" before this has happened can come across as being aggressive and confrontational.

If being firm and direct is part of one's style then learning to dial it back in the early part of relationship building means the advice you're giving is more likely to be accepted.

The objective is to get at least a part of what you're saying past the other persons defences.... there's a time for directness and a time for gentleness..... we won't get it right all the time, but learning when we mess up helps us grow.

Recognising defensive gambits like "Yes But" as defences against fear and vulnerability means we don't get frustrated and increasingly "direct" when someone uses them.

I only build solid relationships with a small amount of people. I do not see why being firm isn't okay when not in a relationship.

I wasn't trying to be aggressive or confrontational.

I was trying to add emphasis to what I was saying. Also, I just kinda naturally speak this way. It takes a lot of effort for me to think about the tone and trying to soften things, I also don't think it would've been especially helpful. It also wouldn't have made logical sense to me. Saying something important with fluffy words surrounding it sounds flaky and not genuine.

When I receive advice from people, I expect them to be straightforward and honest, but of course kind and not mean.

If someone speaks to me in an overly-fluffy way, I might miss the point altogether and not understand how what the person is saying is serious.

Of course, I'm a sensitive person too so it really is a balance for people who DO know me (I'm more sensitive to those I know than receiving advice from a stranger), but the things I've said in this post still apply.

It is how I communicate. I take words literally, and when I see words typed out I try to get their meaning, too much fluffy-ness takes away from that meaning for me.

BellaVita
10-05-15, 03:06 PM
Why not....???

If I can do it.... I suspect you can too.....

That is pretty ableist, especially considering that this is an ADHD forum.

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 03:23 PM
That is pretty ableist, especially considering that this is an ADHD forum.

You see me as I am now.... not as I was before...

From what I've seen on this forum I think you have the intelligence do it..... but then I don't know you...!

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 03:27 PM
You see me as I am now.... not as I was before...

From what I've seen on this forum I think you have the intelligence do it..... but then I don't know you...!
Mere intelligence is not the point.

Also (and pardon me for saying it) the fact you have studied doesn't prove that you have been successful. (except in the sphere of your own life, where I take your word that you have. But this is about other people.)

BellaVita
10-05-15, 03:34 PM
You see me as I am now.... not as I was before...

From what I've seen on this forum I think you have the intelligence do it..... but then I don't know you...!

I know, I wasn't talking about how you were before.

I'm just saying that on an ADHD forum that can be taken the wrong way.

We have gotten told "if I can do it, you can too" all our lives.

I might have the intelligence, but that doesn't mean I have the focus or ability to study and finish the studies. It also takes lots of spoons for me to start a new project(and continue with it) and right now my spoons are getting used up by other things in my life, so much so that I often am left with negative spoons the next day.

Lunacie
10-05-15, 03:43 PM
There has to be more to being a good counselor or therapist than just having
the intelligence for it ... otherwise it wouldn't be so hard to find a good one.

I'm not sure everyone has the emotional capacity, even if they have the
intellectual capacity, to make those connections with strangers and to build
relationships where both feel comfortable sharing personal information.

And, as Bella mentioned, some of us don't feel comfortable making a lot of
relationships. We have enough trouble managing the ones we already have.

namazu
10-05-15, 03:55 PM
I'm just saying that on an ADHD forum that can be taken the wrong way.

We have gotten told "if I can do it, you can too" all our lives.
Some of us have been told that.

Some of us have been told not to bother trying because we're too [stupid/lazy/whatever] to succeed. ...And might actually respond positively to a statement like Kilted's. (If we had any interest in pursuing counseling.)

Communication is hard!

:grouphug:

BellaVita
10-05-15, 03:58 PM
Some of us have been told that.

Some of us have been told not to bother trying because we're too [stupid/lazy/whatever] to succeed. ...And might actually respond positively to a statement like Kilted's. (If we had any interest in pursuing counseling.)

Communication is hard!

:grouphug:

:grouphug:

I've been told a good mix of both. (Was called stupid, lazy, other bad words daily)

Just trying to look out for other people's feelings.

Luvmybully
10-05-15, 04:02 PM
I am not a therapist either, nor do I have the desire to study it.

I am also not in any way interested in developing relationships with every person I interact with on an internet forum.

I join conversations, stay for a bit, and when people respond in ways that I find not tolerable, for me, I move on. Relationship over.

I have no desire to "find alternate ways" to get my point across to that person. That person does not mean enough to me to put forth the continued effort.

I don't feel like I am under any kind of obligation to be that person's therapist, just by the simple fact that we are both posting on a forum.

Also, a continued relationship is a 2 way thing. BOTH will have to have positive interactions to even want to continue it.

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 04:15 PM
I've crammed so much into the 7 or so years since I was diagnosed.... I hardly recognise my old self myself.

Maybe i am ableist, but then I believe that everyone can reach their highest potential, and I am saddened that so few people will... that's people in general... not just ADDers.

If someone like me can have what Maslow calls a "peak experience" then I'm doing something right... and I'd like to communicate that... but I don't generally write posts for the people on the thread.. I write them for those unknowns who may browse past.

I know that people do get something from my posts, if they don't land with you.... that's fine..... different things land at different times.... how we grow is uniquely personal....

but what I sense if that.... in using the work of Maslow, Perls, Rosenberg, Rogers etc in my own life I am standing on the shoulders of giants...

maybe what I'm trying to say is that ADHD or no.....we each need to find our own giants shoulders..... who they are is personal.... but once found we're never truly alone again.

I don't get much sense of who's shoulders other people on these forums look out from, which giants of thought they find companionship and strength in... oft-times people on here seem very lonely....unable to connect in a fulfilling way with work colleagues, fellow students, peer groups and family.... having been there I remember the pain of it.... and I still drop into that pit occasionally.....but I have shoulders to stand on to climb out.... and that makes all the difference.

Who's shoulders do you stand on??

Lunacie
10-05-15, 04:34 PM
:grouphug:

I've been told a good mix of both. (Was called stupid, lazy, other bad words daily)

Just trying to look out for other people's feelings.

Yes, this is what I was thinking. And it's very confusing to be getting both of
those messages (if I can do it then you can too) and (you can't do anything
right) so why bother?

Luvmybully makes a good point. While I've learned a lot from others on this
forum and think maybe I've helped some folks myself ... that doesn't mean
I'm making relationships with all of them.


And yes, I've come a long way in the last 10 or so years since I learned I
have ADHD, but I keep getting told that I'm still not doing things right ...
which I hear as not being able to do anything right given my history.

BellaVita
10-05-15, 04:35 PM
Maybe i am ableist, but then I believe that everyone can reach their highest potential, and I am saddened that so few people will... that's people in general... not just ADDers.

Just because not everyone has the ability or wants to become a therapist, doesn't mean that they're not reaching their full potential.

It's best for one to define potential for themself, not for others to attempt to define that for them.

Lunacie
10-05-15, 04:40 PM
Who's shoulders am I standing on?
Dr. Barkley. Dizfriz. Namazu. Amtram. McTavish. Tigger. Ginniebean. Sarek.
And many more.

Sadly some of them don't post here anymore, and I know that poor health is
a problem for some, but I also know that some don't find it worth the effort
because they've been told they can't be "blunt", they can't complain, they
have to make nice and acccomodate people they honestly disagree with.

Because just disagreeing with some people causes them to think we're being
bullies. Especially when they're so far off the mark that nearly everyone
disagrees with them.

Little Missy
10-05-15, 04:42 PM
Who's shoulders do you stand on??

My own. There is no one else.

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 04:50 PM
I am not saying that people have to become therapists to reach their full potential....

No drives, No compulsions, No needs, No attractions
Then your affairs are under control
You are a free man.


Chuang also said

Easy is right
Begin right and you are easy
Continue easy and you are right
The right way to go easy is to forget the right way
and forget that the going is easy

Chuang Tzu 4th C BC tr Thomas Merton

Neither Master Chuang nor Merton were therapists..... but like many others they were putting into words the essence of what they thought helps people fulfil their highest potential.

There is a thread that runs through all this kind of stuff......all about a kind of connectionless connection.... regardless of who you choose....if you choose right for you.....you will get to the your place of highest potential in the end.

BellaVita
10-05-15, 04:56 PM
I'm not standing on someone else's shoulders as far as I'm aware...:eyebrow:

Luvmybully
10-05-15, 04:56 PM
.


Who's shoulders do you stand on??

My husband's. Sometimes he stands on mine.

BellaVita
10-05-15, 04:58 PM
Can someone please explain the metaphor to me?

Little Missy
10-05-15, 05:02 PM
Can someone please explain the metaphor to me?

Which one?

BellaVita
10-05-15, 05:03 PM
Which one?

Standing on shoulders.

kilted_scotsman
10-05-15, 05:06 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giantshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants

We see further when we use the discoveries of others to power our own search.

find the tall giants.... and we reach for the sky..

(also stops us flaffing around reinventing the wheel)

Little Missy
10-05-15, 05:07 PM
Standing on shoulders.

oh...sensitivity training therapy lean on talk. The no man is an island group action gotta have somebody thing.

namazu
10-05-15, 05:08 PM
Can someone please explain the metaphor to me?
I think Kilted's referring to the idea that our ideas and insights and successes don't arise in a vacuum. In both big and small ways, our successes are attributable not only to our efforts, but also to those who've shaped our thinking and helped us get to where we are today, or laid the groundwork for our successes to be possible. (Focusing mostly on the positive here, not the harmful stuff.)

Standing on shoulders = reaching new heights with the support or influence of others.

It's a concept that's often referred to in scientific discoveries, not only in therapy -- because scientific breakthroughs aren't usually the sole work of one person, but arise as a result of many people's efforts in modifying, replicating, or even refuting what came before.

Here's a Wikipedia article on "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants)", and a bit from the article:
The metaphor of dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants (Latin: nanos gigantum humeris insidentes) expresses the meaning of "discovering truth by building on previous discoveries". While it can be traced to at least the 12th century, attributed to Bernard of Chartres, its most familiar expression in English is found in a 1676 letter of Isaac Newton:


If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. [Translated into Modern English]

BellaVita
10-05-15, 05:11 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giantshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants

We see further when we use the discoveries of others to power our own search.

find the tall giants.... and we reach for the sky..

(also stops us flaffing around reinventing the wheel)

So seeing further than the person we are standing on top of? :scratch:

Is it talking about someone else's view/wisdom with our own?

I'm still confused. (And yes, I read the link)

BellaVita
10-05-15, 05:13 PM
Ah okay, thanks guys.

:)

dvdnvwls
10-05-15, 08:34 PM
My own. There is no one else.
Trying to convince other people that solipsism is true can be a very tricky business. ;) :lol:

sarahsweets
10-06-15, 04:24 AM
I am all for personal development and leaning on the good faith and works of others I am just not sure how it has anything to do with things here on this thread.

sarahsweets
10-06-15, 04:36 AM
I know we have all sorts of sections related to various issues with adhd but I was wondering...do you all think having a subforum or thread devoted to the partners with adhd in a relationship with a non-adhdr would be helpful? I am not saying that it would, I am just wondering if it would help non adhd partners understand the dynamics in a relationship (of the romantic/partner variety) with someone who has adhd. I know we have the relationships section but thats more general and non-specific. Maybe I should start or revive an older thread....

kilted_scotsman
10-06-15, 08:13 AM
Standing on shoulders isn't "leaning on" people.....

It's more about using the knowledge others have discovered to give us a head start....

Eg....if i wanted to learn to fly.....I couldn't design and build even the most rudimentary airplane without devoting my whole being to that end... plus I'd probably kill myself early in the learning process... instead I find an instructor, who I trust will select a prebuilt aircraft suitable for learning in.....

When I step into that plane with my instructor I've short circuited about a century of technical development, huge financial outlay and a lethal amount of risk.....I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.....

Likewise in the world of personal development, if we want to help ourselves, and others..... we stand on the shoulders of giants in psychology, neuroscience, pharmacology and even spirituality..... trying to do it all by ourselves is a lifetime of mostly fruitless toil...... life without the possibility of diagnosis if you like!

I think it's really important to understand that, though we have ADHD, the roots of many of the issues we discuss on these boards affect all humans, regardless of culture, creed or genetic coding..... we are humans first ADHD a long way after that..... so it pays to be curious about the signposts a millennia of deep thinking people have left telling us what they've found about how to live a happy fulfilled and contented life.....

acdc01
10-06-15, 09:08 AM
I had gone back and looked at several past threads. I found that:

A. The vast majority of the harshest (most accusation sounding) posts were, in my opinion, posted by the same 1 or 2 individuals. The ones that write as if they feel it's their right and obligation to disrespect the non-ADHDers he/she feels deserves disrespect.

B. It is overwhelming when like 5 people respond with a tinge of anger and say about the same thing in disagreement with you (even if the words themselves are not too harsh). This type of situation happens occasionally in all subforums but much more so on the non-ADHDer subforum.

C. The trigger to the harsh posts was people feeling like the OP was disrespecting/mistreating their spouse.

D. The problem is NOT due to impulsiveness or inability to not be blunt. The very same people who contribute to the harshness mainly post eloquent, respectful posts. There's always a pattern to when the posts change. It's when the "trigger" described in C. above occurs and the poster sounds angry.

Because of the above, I propose the following solutions:

1. When you feel like you're angry. Just step back, assess how you are feeling, relax, and wait till your not overwhelmingly angry before posting.

2. Understand your triggers for anger. Just step back, assess how your feeling, relax and wait for a bit before posting

I think most people try to post in a respectful and polite manner in this board and they do succeed when they aren't angry so this may be enough now that we've had this conversation. You DO NOT have to silence yourself or not write your opinion.

I propose we try the above first and see where it takes us now that we've had this conversation. If it doesn't work, we bump this thread or start a new one with more proposed solutions. We should take improvement step-by-step anyway, it's just easier that way.

I wanted to keep things simple so only proposed the above 2 steps for now. But if those if people feel they can try more or the above don't work, I suggest the following additional solutions.

3. If you see more than 2 posters writing about the same tough-to-swallow post you are wanting to post about, don't post your message as that message has already been said (you've gotten your message across through others already).

4. The forum etiquette policy specifically says we should treat everyone with respect. The 1 or 2 individuals who purposely post in a disrespectful manner are violating this policy. I don't recommend this yet as I'm hoping we don't need to take this measure, but if they continue to purposefully violate this policy, I proposed we ban these individuals from this subforum until they promise to treat everyone with respect. As they generate most of the harsh posts, this act alone would improve the subforum substantially. I don't believe in banning people on the other subforums as those are there for ADHDer support. But this subforum isn't to support them - it's for the non-ADHDers. These people are purposefully violation forum policies anyway.

I'm guessing#4 will generate controversy. But I wouldn't argue about 3 and 4 now as I'm not proposing it at this time. Just look at items 1 and 2 above and see what you think?

Sorry if my post doesn't fit in the conversation anymore. I was busy for a bit and missed a bunch of posts so may have lost track of the conversation.

Little Missy
10-06-15, 09:22 AM
Are you the arbiter?

acdc01
10-06-15, 09:30 AM
Are you the arbiter?

I'm not trying to be in charge or dictate what to do. I'm just proposing solutions and listing why I propose those solutions and asking what people think of the solutions.

That's how I write in general to solve problems, not just here but in life. I list the problem and then I list a solution that I think will solve the problem. Then I look over my list of problems again and see if the solutions really do apply. Sorry if it's overwhelming - it's just how my brain works and the practice is actually quite helpful for me. It keeps me on track instead of letting my mind wander too much.

TygerSan
10-06-15, 09:43 AM
We have a diversity of ideas, opinions, and perspectives in this thread. It has strayed somewhat from its original purpose and has raised issues that the moderating staff and members alike must contemplate.

I am temporarily closing this thread to allow time for review and reflection.