View Full Version : Emotions and Attention


Unmanagable
10-08-15, 11:40 AM
I read this today and found it rather interesting. I'll leave it to the hardcore science brains to determine its perceived worthiness, but it seems like at least a valid observation that could lead to helpful information. One that seems to be overlooked in the arenas I've sought help in, lived in, worked in, etc.

It seems like a vicious cycle where we hope to be able to teach the children that it's okay to be in tune with your emotions, but those having the children and doing the teaching aren't so sure of how to do it themselves, so we continue to be set up for the whole "faking it" scene.

We're left with no tools, or many of the wrong generic tools that leave many individuals out of the loop, to recognize and process emotions. But at the same time, we all receive a boat load of expectations to keep our emotions under control and randomly pretend to be the ones we are not, depending heavily, and sometimes solely, on the expectations of others.

Who has energy left after sorting through all of that stuff inside of our minds and hearts to be able to focus on all the other areas of life passing us by? The programming of how things "should" be starts tripping us up very early in life.

http://theconversation.com/children-who-understand-emotions-become-more-attentive-over-time-44819

aeon
10-08-15, 12:34 PM
Once again, something that follows so clearly from the writings of Dr. Allan Schore.

Part of the reason that children who have a better knowledge of emotions become free to pay attention to their social partners, to play, and to academic learning, is because the same process by which infants learn affect control and awareness is the one that leads to a secure sense of self and the world.

The mirroring experience, co-developed by mother and child, where the neurobiology of the affective self is forged, is also the source of secure attachment (when successful).

Infants who are securely attached have a greater likelihood of going on to develop socially-appropriate affective control and behaviors, and this sets the stage for positive engagement with the world.

Infants who are other than securely attached have a greater likelihood of going on to develop socially-inappropriate affective control and behaviors, and this sets the stage for adaptive and maladaptive engagement with the world and the self.

In particular, those infants who grow into children without affective self-control and the ability to self-soothe will find the world, social and otherwise, difficult to navigate. To wit, from the article:

Children with limited “emotion knowledge,” on the other hand, often seem distracted. Their attention may be occupied by the explanation of their own confusing emotional states, the negative emotions of others or the regulation of their own emotions.

In addition, these young “emotional illiterates” tend to harbor more ill feelings because they believe that others will harm them. They tend to become more often angry and aggressive and have less productive relationships with teachers and peers.

What is unfortunate is that in this culture, emotion is the thing we are most afraid of, the thing we are most illiterate of, the form of violence that is most casual and occurs without awareness more often than not. Gender roles encourage invalidation of both boys and girls, and what survives the home environment is methodically murdered by school and peers.

We recognize emotion’s power, but because we do not understand it, we fear it, and that which we fear is driven from our awareness. As such, it cannot be fully integrated into the self, and remains outside of our experience.

It is life’s work and the hero’s journey to reclaim one’s birthright and seat it properly alongside the other parts of the Self at the table of the feast that is the potential of a life, fully lived. And indeed, should we aspire to live as such, we must undertake this path, hard-won and long.


Cheers,
Ian

Unmanagable
10-08-15, 12:42 PM
We recognize emotion’s power, but because we do not understand it, we fear it, and that which we fear is driven from our awareness. As such, it cannot be fully integrated into the self, and remains outside of our experience.

Yes. This.

And the mere thought of having to experience it, at times, is enough to keep some from ever going there. There are times I wish I wasn't driven to want to feel, at all, but most times, I wouldn't have it any other way.

mildadhd
10-08-15, 10:16 PM
... There are times I wish I wasn't driven to want to feel, at all, but most times, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Me to.

Emotions are fun.

P

SB_UK
10-09-15, 01:26 AM
I read this today and found it rather interesting. I'll leave it to the hardcore science brains to determine its perceived worthiness, but it seems like at least a valid observation that could lead to helpful information. One that seems to be overlooked in the arenas I've sought help in, lived in, worked in, etc.

It seems like a vicious cycle where we hope to be able to teach the children that it's okay to be in tune with your emotions, but those having the children and doing the teaching aren't so sure of how to do it themselves, so we continue to be set up for the whole "faking it" scene.

We're left with no tools, or many of the wrong generic tools that leave many individuals out of the loop, to recognize and process emotions. But at the same time, we all receive a boat load of expectations to keep our emotions under control and randomly pretend to be the ones we are not, depending heavily, and sometimes solely, on the expectations of others.

Who has energy left after sorting through all of that stuff inside of our minds and hearts to be able to focus on all the other areas of life passing us by? The programming of how things "should" be starts tripping us up very early in life.

http://theconversation.com/children-who-understand-emotions-become-more-attentive-over-time-44819

When we watch kiddies play football (or professional footballers for that matter) - we often see some who're emotionally attached to want to keep the ball, steal the glory and others that're emotionally predisposed to playing a team game.

If we follow the wrong set of emotions - don't we end up with a world in which people are empowered to make similar statements to 'greed is good' and it is OK to pursue one's own program without a care for others.

And as society tends towards opening up children to the less competitive emotions - that there's a backlash against efforts - lead by the usual aggressive male that suggests that this will not lead to proper development of boys.

Thing is - you can be tough without ever having to beat another person up.

Thing is - you can be far tougher - if one competes against oneself.

The 'male' fear that opening men up to social emotions and discouraging aggressive competition is unfounded - whether boys or girls - a measure of their own quality cannot be obtained by measuring individuals against others.

It doesn't matter if you're poor at some activity but enjoy it.
It matters (you shouldn't be doing it) - if you're good at some activity but hate it.

The problem with our society is that it's preaching that we should aspire to being better than other people - and that would make us the best.

But anybody with a genuine desire to improve themselves will get no lasting reward from outdoing some other person in direct competition.

Just this feeling of emptiness - wanting to feel a sense of reward - with none forthcoming.

That emptiness gives us a clue into the 'addictive' nature of competition against our fellow man - and with all addictions - the individual drives themself into an unpleasant place.

You mean that's it ?
A lifetime spent aspiring to this - and now that I have it, I feel no different.

So - generating people who can feel - is the right approach - but in a society where the wrong feelings are driven by the messages preached by all interpersonal human contact from school through sport to workplace - we preach and teach different messages.

It's important to note that the individual could be better at schooling, at sport and in the workplace - if the motivation preached and taught were to change from co-ercive (for the addictive money construct) and into the desire to become personally better.

Becoming better is self-promoting, beating other people is self-defeating.

You can only become better if you practice and enjoy practicing.
All that happens with defeat of others as one's paradigm - that one eventually loses.

SB_UK
10-09-15, 01:39 AM
Who has energy left after sorting through all of that stuff inside of our minds and hearts to be able to focus on all the other areas of life passing us by?

Yes - life appears to be an unrelenting journey from idiotic scheme to idiotic scheme.

Yesterday - where do we obtain a 'xyz' tool (a cone wrench), how do we choose an 'xyz' tool (cones come in different sizes and we have multiple bikes !), why does 'abc' not work (bluetooth speakers), why has 'def' gone bust (eco home modification provider) and so it continues ... ... ... complete occupancy of the mind in ridiculous concerns which all echo some variation on human beings having intoduced schemes without thinking them through.
So -<- those're just a set of problems which came up in a few minutes yesterday - imagine how long the list'd be over time and across all people.

So - just on those couple of things from yesterday - we could easily develop a simple mechanism for accessing bicycle ballbearings which doesn't involve so much messing about but people who are paid to fix poor mechanisms and are the agents responsible for change will resist it, ultra-low quality products generated for reasons of maximising profit and the consequence of needing to make money in worthwhile but not economically viable industries.

The point being that money drives individuals into seizing the wrong set of emotions (lower emotions) and eliminating the reward system which money gains its traction through - could put in place (conditional in what is taught and preached) - a reward system in which the individual enjoys personal betterment.

ie a transition between 2 fundamentally different emotional schemes.

That behaviour in these 2 schemes is driven by emotions - just emotions relating to differing motivations.

And that the choice of emotional scheme embraced is defined by social environment.

-*-

So - the point from this comment'd be - if you spend your life repairing bad designs - how ever will the individual find time to progress ?

Segue into - Einstein's 'any fool can know, the object is to understand' and Einstein's 'the genius prevents not solves' where understand/prevent and know/'cure' are bedfellows.

In our current lives - we spend our entire time fixing problems, 'curing' problems, fire-fighting, sticking our fingers and toes into leaky dams - and so never actually get time to ourselves - there's always something (through bad design) which requires our attention; and the core basis to society embracing poor design is that the people tasked with correcting poor design will lo$e if their need sis eliminated through robust design.

My personal opinion is permaculture external world (self-sustaining) and one cloud infrastructure (we're clever enough to make this self-sustaining also).

The problems arise when we're forced to drive multiple disparate systems together - and before you know it human beings generate solutions which add to the burden as opposed to maximising the elegance of utility sought.

SB_UK
10-09-15, 02:01 AM
And finally to suggest that 1 emotional scheme (selfish) degrades the complexity of one's own nervous system and the other develops the complexity of the nervous system.

And that developing personal quality (ie becoming a better neural and therefore total being) - is neuroprotective - particularly against ageing - since the consequence (ie network formation) - allows individual to spare (ie redundancy built-in to a network) individual neurones - preventing chronic activation of sepcific neurones / neural death.

ie acquisition of quality protects against neurodegeneration.

mildadhd
10-09-15, 09:29 PM
In addition..

Affective Consciousness (experiencing feelings)

Cognitive Consciousness (experiencing thoughts about feelings)

Affective Consciousness is more mature than Cognitive Consciousness in early childhood.

The group of children in the picture are able to feel others facial expressions through deeply subcortical primary affective mechanisms.

These primary sensory, homeostatic and emotional response systems can feel facial expressions, even before neocortex functioning develops (comes online)

As we mature, higher neocortex cognitive consciousness "reaches down" and regulates these primary affective response systems.

We experience feelings, before we experience thoughts about feelings.

Does everyone agree, so far?..



P

Unmanagable
10-09-15, 09:49 PM
The first thing I thought of was all the times it feels like my thoughts are provoking emotion. It seems hard to tell on some days which comes first. Bodily reactions to cellular memories of past experience trips it all up for me, too......happening before the thought OR emotion reaches my awareness.

mildadhd
10-09-15, 10:26 PM
The first thing I thought of was all the times it feels like my thoughts are provoking emotion. It seems hard to tell on some days which comes first. Bodily reactions to cellular memories of past experience trips it all up for me, too......happening before the thought OR emotion reaches my awareness.

3 vertical evolutionary human processing levels of brain control, starting from the bottom.

(primary processing) (affective conscious) unconditioned emotional response systems + experiences = (secondary processing) (unconscious) conditioned emotional responses/implicit preverbal memories, in early life.


Self-regulation and awareness are (tertiary processing) (cognitive conscious) when come online. (Age 2+*)




P

mildadhd
10-09-15, 10:48 PM
Here is a great short video by Harvard researchers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNNsN9IJkws

SB_UK
10-10-15, 01:55 AM
In addition..

Affective Consciousness (experiencing feelings)

Cognitive Consciousness (experiencing thoughts about feelings)

Affective Consciousness is more mature than Cognitive Consciousness in early childhood.

The group of children in the picture are able to feel others facial expressions through deeply subcortical primary affective mechanisms.

These primary sensory, homeostatic and emotional response systems can feel facial expressions, even before neocortex functioning develops (comes online)

As we mature, higher neocortex cognitive consciousness "reaches down" and regulates these primary affective response systems.

We experience feelings, before we experience thoughts about feelings.

Does everyone agree, so far?..



P

And so cognitive consciousness should aspire to achieve coherence with deeper empathic consciousness

- or to only think thoughts which're compatible with 'putting' smiles on other faces ... ... with you.

It isn't exclusively altrusistic if both selfish and altruistic - a 'win win' ... ... ...

Really not a case of hiding behind lamp-posts waiting for little old ladies to hustle across the road - simply formulating schemes which one knows will result in smiles.

Key.

Giving people their freedom by eliminating slavery to co-ercion by money.

Money manifests delusion; ownership is an illusion.

SB_UK
10-10-15, 02:04 AM
The first thing I thought of was all the times it feels like my thoughts are provoking emotion. It seems hard to tell on some days which comes first. Bodily reactions to cellular memories of past experience trips it all up for me, too......happening before the thought OR emotion reaches my awareness.

When the mind comes up with a thought isn't it some emotion which forces the thought to the start of the queue ie I think most of us here need to wait for the emotion 'fear' to overcome 'boredom' in order to attend to some task which requires reading bureaucracy.

Fear of missing the deadline which imparts motivation into engagement.

Definitely - emotion first.

Emotion - whether at the 'selfish' or 'selfish/altruistic' level preceding the thoughts/task order which pop to mind.

So - in line with Unmanagable's comments above - if either the individual or society's mind is garbled - task order won't be properly established.

ADDers struggle with societal task order differing from individual task order ie wanting to do other tasks than those which we're expected to do.

Procrastination common in ADDers (see overcoming boredom threshold above).

And 'you mean you're not lazy' actually referencing the idea that as we try harder to overcome individual defined priorities - that (di)sress drives us into (as stress does) an incapacity to concentrate.

Stress zones us out.

And as we know - stress diverts energy from brain/gut to the body to run !

run ! - ADDer hyperactivity
brain energy depletion - ADDer fog

SB_UK
10-10-15, 02:28 AM
The first thing I thought of was all the times it feels like my thoughts are provoking emotion. It seems hard to tell on some days which comes first. Bodily reactions to cellular memories of past experience trips it all up for me, too......happening before the thought OR emotion reaches my awareness.

What about ?

[underlying structure of mind] -> bubbles up an emotional motivation -> translated into a pattern of thought -> results in an emotion

So deadline -> fear -> must complete -> relief

We can choose (without co-ercion ie SEEK/PLAY) to follow that scheme or, as in the case above, we are forced (and so need to use the stress ie FEAR/PANIC response) to attend.

But there is no need for FEAR/PANIC in a world with a reasonable mind.

What's there to fear ?

-*-

Emotion must precede thought - however thought can guide emotion.

With - the emotional (empathic) - systematizing (cognitive) - sensory (quality) series of 'rewarding' pursuits encoded by BRAIN/MIND - in that order (from Peripheral above) ie empathic first, cognitive second and upon opening the doors to perception - sensory third (as actual reward system)

-- the goal - as with any abstraction layer is to complete one before moving onto the next.

So -

MORALITY - to learn to feel happy when others are happy
RATIONALITY - to learn to feel happy as we generate a globally consistent model of reality
QUALITY - to learn to feel happy as we become more deeply immersed in the sensual world.

All three -- associated with reward system activation.

Problems - trying to separate these abstraction layers.

Give examples.

1. RATIONALITY without MORALITY -
'never seen a miracle of science didn't go from a blessing to a curse'

2. QUALITY without RATIONALITY
Awful modern art and repetitive popular music.
No personal quality engaged - just low quality, pretentious rehashed nonsense.

3. MORALITY without RATIONALITY
Showering people with cakes, alcohol on social occasions - despite the emerging view that non-negligible glycaemic index carbohydrates, dairy, processed food and alcohol are poison.

4. RATIONALITY without QUALITY
Academic tendency to over-complicate and to resolve ie the need to obtain reward from a scheme (systematizing) which we should be using to deconvolute reality into understanding.

5. QUALITY without MORALITY
To pursue art forms which're intrinsically exclusive ie to pursue 'opera' because only the very rich may afford entrance into the event.

6. MORALITY without QUALITY
To provide people with access (eg free TV) to an 'art' form which destroys the individual's personal quest towards becoming intrinsically better. In theory it's 'art' but it's not transcendental (a hand up towards Freudenfreude) but instead (see the usual grimy soap opera) - descent of the human spirit into Schadenfreude.

SB_UK
10-10-15, 02:33 AM
3 vertical evolutionary human processing levels of brain control, starting from the bottom.

(primary processing) (affective conscious) unconditioned emotional response systems + experiences = (secondary processing) (unconscious) conditioned emotional responses/implicit preverbal memories, in early life.


Self-regulation and awareness are (tertiary processing) (cognitive conscious) when come online. (Age 2+*)

P

:-)

3 vertical evolutionary human processing levels of brain control, starting from the bottom.
Empathizing - into the social world - first night of birth - oxytocin surge - mother/child attachment
Systematizing - into the world of words as a toddler
Sensory - into the world of beauty

All three associated with reward - driving the reward system.

[what about motor control/movement/balance? which wants to fit into systematizing ?]

Object - to achieve coherence in the three.

SB_UK
10-10-15, 02:44 AM
SO - what's the connection ?

Sensory - Homeostatic - Emotional is the generic pattern

This is the learning scheme of neural network.

Sensory - Balance/Inter-neurone/Cerbellum - Motor

Sensory nerve - Inter-neurone - Motor neurone

Sensory cortical -> Cerebellar -> Motor cortical scheme

However the newborn then has different learning schemes as newborn progresses.

->- horizontal development ->- Peripheral 'sensory, homeostatic, emotional' == Sensory cortical -> Cerebellar -> Motor cortical scheme
|
V
|
vertical
development
|
V
|
empathizing reward system ->- Sensory cortical -> Cerebellar -> Motor cortical scheme
|
V
|
systematizing reward system ->- Sensory cortical -> Cerebellar -> Motor cortical scheme
|
V
|
sensory reward system ->- Sensory cortical -> Cerebellar -> Motor cortical scheme


-*-

Summarising
So - we'd have the generation of evolutionary abstraction layers - one above the other - all synchronized - each representing a different level of control.
Each (horizontal level) compatible with the basic rubric of 'learning' ie cerebellar control.
And - with learning as the only trick of the lowest common denominator of the brain - as the basis upon which each level (vertical development associated wiht the stages of brainmind of man with age from birth) is built.

SB_UK
10-10-15, 03:00 AM
Now back to emotions and attention.

People (if we examine society currently) have shown themselves able to stimulate emotions (motivating behaviour) on the empathizing, systematizing and sensory levels from degrading capacity and not (what the neurone programs us to do - developing capacity) eg

empathizing - people driven towards competition and not collaboration
systematizing - people driven towards tribal allegiance to mental schemes which are not globally logically consistent eg divisive -ISM people
sensory - people driven towards ultra-low quality sensory experiences (eg fast food)

So - why do we have reward from developing ultra-low quality and high quality in what is required of us ?

Wouldn't it be nice if we were only able to derive reward from pursuing the path into greater individual quality ?

The simplest answer would be to refer back to the tri-une model of brainmind which places the first vertical level of the brainmind as reptilian (exclusively selfish), second as mammalian (social) and third as properly human (both selfish and social ie to do what's best for both one and all).

We appear to be able to derive reward from either selfish only, social only and complementary selfish/social behaviours.

This becomes complex as sensory, balance, motor, sensory, homeostatic, emotional, empathizing, systematizing, sensory quality ... ... ... seem to want to re-define themselves each time we look at brain development.

What's the simplest model for what we should be aspiring towards ?
How about a global learning/teaching environment which simultaneously supports age-appropriate tendency achieving (quality in) social, rational and sensory personal attributes.

It's hard - to partition these off - since sensory informational flow begins at birth - and yet I'm concentrating on sensory flow as reward system at wisdom ... ... or considering social attachment as initially occurring upon the first night of birth - and yet continuing into 'mirror neurones of reward' and 'right speech/communication' and 'right motivation'.

Prefer the idea of 'simultaneously' and age-appropriate (child dependent) ... ... generation of a child balanced in the three aspects of quality - with intentional connection between these 3 areas and science, social science and art
(with physical exercise - as above ie motor development in the background)
- the entire standard academic curriculum.

SB_UK
10-10-15, 03:40 AM
Concluding

emotions and attention

So stripping back all of the complexity.


What's the simplest model for what we should be aspiring towards ?
How about a global learning/teaching environment which simultaneously supports age-appropriate tendency achieving (quality in) social, rational and sensory personal attributes.People then will derive reward from ^^^ and not degrading ^^^.

The consequence - to overcome the diseases of Western style (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diseases_of_affluence) (degrading ^^^) low quality living and to overcome the diseases of Eastern style (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diseases_of_poverty) (degrading ^^^) poverty living.

Represnting the removal of diseases which help to make life for ALL people currently an exercise in dying - protracted disease prior to death ... ... kicking in from birth as attachment disorders (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111102124955.htm) arise from (distress ! - mediated disorders) having to throw child into daycare in order for mother to return to work on the very next day.

Analyse whatever it is that mother or any body else is doing for money - and we'll find it represents carrying the error, creating a lesser world - work of no consequence - where only balanced child development from birth through death into higher intrinsic social, rational, sensory (and motor) quality - matters.

mildadhd
10-10-15, 01:18 PM
Awesome thread/discussions.

Sensory attention?
Homeostatic attention?
Emotional attention?

(Functioning order depends on context of discussion)


P

SB_UK
10-11-15, 12:52 AM
We can see sensory distress in sensory overload - so sensory attention has a sweet spot, homeostasis is the very definition of a middle point - with homeostatic distress representing leaving that middle zone and emotional stability is a balanced point between eg the highs and lows of bipolar disease.

So - happily paying attention appears to require the optimal amount of sensory information entering, homeostatic milieu maintained and emotional stability engaged.

The individual then neither (ADHD and ADD-I) squirms in discomfort or zones out from a 'rush of blood away from the head'.

Just distress.

And why is the ADDer distressed ?
Just the simple idea that fun (becoming better - there's something pure about the term 'fun') actually means something - and that if something is fun - then it's engaging PLAY/SEEK/PLEASURE/CARE and not FEAR/PANIC/ANGER.

Just a + and a - aspect to mind.

A carrot and a stick.

We need carrot which doesn't enagage stick.

If we take a high glucose/glutamate meal which excites eg a standard fast food burger - then there will be a stick when the effects wear off.

-*-

With
sensory
homeostatic
emotional

distressors - at any of the three levels - since they're all tied - any given distressor can throw off the other three.

What're the standard distressors on these 3 levels ?

sensory - low quality informational access, insufficient high quality informational access, excess low quality informational access

homeostatic - food driving non-physiological fluctuations in internal factors regulated by glucocorticoid and mneralocorticoid - most notably the [blood glucose]
and [ion] levels leading to fluctuating plasma osmolality

emotional - the fear reaction being driven when in the presensce of another (Hell os other people) person - due to each human interaction tending towards 'taking' rather than 'giving' - not just insurance salesmen - but the guy who seeks to convert you to x,y,z for his own benefit, or who talks at you to bolter her ego, or who strives for fame for reasons relating to his personal desire - and in all cases without a motivation of making things better for people {{{period}}}.

So - classical distressors - though there are more.

Sensory - inadequate informational immersion
Homeostatic - inadequate food type
Emotion - inadequately pro-social behaviour in other people

Is it any surprise that we cannot spend time paring sensory, homeostatic and emotional attention when our attention has been taken out of the comfort zone.

But why can people pay attention to distressful environments ?

Level of sensitivity (degraded with immersion in low quality environments) and recruitment of addiction ie life as an inexorable journey into addiction - dying a life which will feel (when it comes to an end) as though nothing has been achieved.

The life of addiction is demarcated by the belief that when one finally achieves ther perfect soufflé - that one will feel that one has made it.

But try as you might - the perfect soufflé is unattainable.

Perfection is sought since it is believed that that will bring satisfaction - however - it never does.

People want satisfaction - but what is satisfaction -
satisfaction is 'permission to stand down' - to know that one has reached a destination where one need no longer strive.

A point of satisfaction where the individual feels that they're made it.

In standard Western style lives - this usually equates in some way to money ie having paid for a house and having enough to live comfortably - but all of that is nonsense - people might suggest that they have - but all people know that under the cover they field a deep dissatisfaction in not feeling the words they use to describe the place they know they're supposed to believe they're in, given their position.

So - what's the problem ?

Insufficient attention, insufficient insight into what it is to be human, insufficient capacity to gain insight into behaviours which shift us up and away from forever wanting more ... ... ... and the path - is simply through mind into quality.

And away from the childish pre-occupation (note - to be expected in children) with one self.

The child is supposed to become better - and instead society is filled, particularly at the highest level - with people who did not grow up - and occupy positions through belief that they will gain fame, immortality, something satisfying - but it won't.

There is just following the evolutionary creative motivation into 'better' - we're not permitted to travel backwards into hierarchical animal, tribal social groupings. We cannot field alpha males/females. All people are (a realization which comes with mind) - equal.

SB_UK
10-11-15, 01:05 AM
What're the standard distressors on these 3 levels ?

Sensory - inadequate informational immersion
Homeostatic - inadequate food type
Emotion - inadequately pro-social behaviour in other people


The love/desire of money, power, abuse relationships or the primitive reward system provides us with the motivation to travel in that (the wrong) direction.

This direction is defined by school (competitive), work (competitive) and social (competitive) environment.

People feel reward from competing and winning.

Simply by deriving reward from global collaboration - we'll shift reward re-inforcement of reward [addictive in this case] away from beating others into helping others.

People will naturally learn to collaborate if they feel good when they collaborate.
Just simple old reward-reinforcement - a mechanism for harnessing attention.
In this world - if you collaborate - you lose ie Ned Flanders loses all items he lends to classical Western male - Homer Simpson.

So - the simple suggestion that receiving reward from participation in global collaborative pursuits will vanquish receiving reward from globally comeptitive pursuits.

How ? Embrace local sustainbility, voluntaryism and free movement between local communities from one place to another.

It's hard to appreciate another if you're dependent on that other - (hence the need for local autonomy, sustainability, self-sustainability) - what generally then happens (in dependence relations) - is that the dependency relationship is strained as one party (either buyer or seller) wants more (of the item or more money for the item, respectively) ... ... ...

Once again - we can model what we're seeing as a network - where all 'lines' within the network are equivalent.

No (eg) high dependency relationships extending out from the Middle East labelled oil, or high dependency relationships extending out from the USA labelled arms ... ... just local sustainability - requiring NO money to maintain.

The love/desire of money, power, abuse relationships or the primitive reward system provides us with the motivation to travel in that (the wrong) direction.
We're supposed to pay attention to emotions which we enjoy from making life better.
Sadly - there are another set - waiting in the wings - whcih derive satisfaction from making life (for one and all) - less enjoyable with each individual action construed.

mildadhd
10-11-15, 01:08 AM
Function functioning.



P

SB_UK
10-11-15, 01:21 AM
Summarising
[1] Reward reinforcement operating through feeling (emotions) good determines behaviour.
[2] We either develop better or develop addiction since both drive reward system activation.
[3] Addiction reward system is biologically implanted to assist physical growth and 'to become better' is implanted to assist mental (learning) growth.
[4] Only one (the higher) of these reward systems drives the individual in a manner whereby the individual can escape the 'need' for [anything outside of their control in the material world] reward.
[5] To achieve escape from the 'need' for [material world] reward [cf Buddhism's losing material world attachment] is the preise definition of freedom to which human beings have been searching.
[6] The attachment can be viewed as a 'programmed' list of behaviours which we're required to participate in - taking in attachment to child, partner ... ... but all of that is co-ercive (by evolution) ... ... and we do ... ... if we pass through the program (and strive towards rationality morality and quality) emerge 'out' the other end - fully self-actualized (Maslow).
[6] It's freedom which one gains from (actually) oneself.
[7] And life - following escape from the desire within one's head to be a (wage) slave ie to be subjugated ie to be attached ie Stockholm Syndrome ie to be happy (Shawshank Redemption) on the outside -
begins thereafter.

To die (physical death) isn't sad - to die without having 'lived' however is.
One can only truly live when one has attained freedom.

http://thefilmspectrum.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/shawshank-end1.png

SB_UK
10-11-15, 01:24 AM
Function functioning.



P

Yes - no such thing as executive function.

Executive function represents executive functioning - arising out of a set of evolutionarily stacked 'timed' abstraction layers - or levels of control applied through sensory cortical - cerebellar - motor control circuits.

Self-regulation simply disrupts if these control circuits are not balanced.

In ADHD - we obseve profound disruption in the sensory, homeostaic and emotional balance points we required for embracing the higher reward system - of becoming better.

SB_UK
10-11-15, 01:27 AM
More generally - the noun does not exist.

It can't - everything represents an underlying motion.

Nothing can be still - phenomenological reality scales a time signature and standing wave - and although this could be considered still, net zero - it's all an illusion.

In our reality - orthogonally arrayed standing waves - 2 x 2 moving everted standing waves - which - balance to 'zero' but represent nothing in any way similar to static.

mildadhd
10-11-15, 02:04 AM
I find (tertiary processing level) terms "self-regulation" (also known as "executive function", etc) to be universally accepted.

I prefer to say, SEEKING and PLAY systems extent from the bottom (primary processing) deeply subcortex, to the middle (secondary processing) upper limbic, and to the top (tertiary processing) neocortex prefrontal cortex.

Permanently supervised fun function functioning, promotes development top-down self-regulation.


P

SB_UK
10-11-15, 02:55 AM
I find (tertiary processing level) terms "self-regulation" (also known as "executive function", etc) to be universally accepted.

I prefer to say, SEEKING and PLAY systems extent from the bottom (primary processing) deeply subcortex, to the middle (secondary processing) upper limbic, and to the top (tertiary processing) neocortex prefrontal cortex.

Permanently supervised fun function functioning, promotes development top-down self-regulation.


P

Human development from birth to death representing some (at each stage) 'learning' paradigm - with 'fun' representing a description of what the individual should be experiencing from birth to death - in order to optimise the neural networks which're required to be put in place in order to guide the individual through life.

So - bottom up until top created - and then bottom-up/top-down.

Top uses bottom as foundations - and so top may never arise if lower layers not put in place.

What're the levels of learning we're expected to go through ?

Just have a look at the timings for neural network development ie when does baby walk, when does baby talk, when does baby listen to music, when does baby attach - and then line up all of the other behaviours which kick in as baby grows - and we've the learning schedule from baby to adult.

It is tempting to jump straight up to cognitive consciousness into sensory immersion - but it's true that we may never get to that place if our path is muddled in the preceding stages.

So - in some ways - Peripheral's comment about the entire journey being destroyed by failed social/morality/maternal-baby attachment could represent the initiation of problems (driving baby into addiction) - which can not be recovered from.

There's no point in describing the second leg of the journey if the first leg fails.

That proper parental - child attachment isn't enough though - perhaps pan-people attachment would be enough - but exposure of a properly attached child to an improper (aggressive) schooling environment where force is used to make child learn material of little intrinsic benefit ie information which the child does not want and is driven to attend only through fear -

- will bring out the incapacity to pay attention in an up until then, well adjusted child.

-*-

Failure to teach appropriate material - expression of failed mind - how can you teach anybody something until you know what is important for people to know ? Dare to challenge a teacher and one will see FEAR/PANIC/ANGER.

Although the teacher may see the student's point - such a student challenges the teacher's ability to keep his income stream going - stimulating FEAR/PANIC/ANGER.

Use of stick in teaching - simply takes us down the FEAR/PANIC/ANGER route and away from SEEKING/PLAY/CARE/PLEASURE.

Driving the desire in child to succeed by beating other people - nonce again employs teaching which recruits the lower emotions of - FEAR/PANIC/ANGER.

Or driving a child to pay attention to school through fear of expulsion - not getting a job and living a difficult life employs the lower emotional set for motivation of FEAR/PANIC/ANGER.

-*-

We live in a society in which FEAR/PANIC/ANGER and not CARE/PLAY/SEEKING/JOY (prefer to PLEASURE/LUST) are paramount.

Summarising
2 paths - one lower and one higher; the higher (to embrace creative collective character ... not to embrace the destructive demagogic delusion) is required if meaningful happiness is sought.

SB_UK
10-11-15, 03:07 AM
Simply - generate a society in which happy self-sustainability is offered to all people globally - and then allow people to enage in voluntary self-assembly.

Become as great as one can be - by voluntarily joining collectives.

When one tires or has learnt all that one requires ... ... move on.

-*-

Human beings are only lazy in a world in which they're forced to work.

Eliminate the need to work and people will work harder.
From first mind to death.

There will be no such thing as retirement.

Life will be fun throughout.

And when the music plays (joyful application of self to personally rewarding activity) - we will not find anyone that wills it to stop ?

SB_UK
10-11-15, 03:17 AM
SENSORY, HOMEOSTATIC, EMOTIONAL distress
destroys proper neural development in
SOCAIBILITY, CO-ORDINATION, RATIONALITY, QUALITY (SENSING) MACHINERY
driven by
CO-ERCIVE ENVIRONMENT
responsible for selection of
PRIMITIVE over HIGHER REWARD system
RE-INFORCING behaviour
through exerting
LOWER (RAGE/FEAR/ANGER) over HIGHER EMOTIONS (JOY/CARE/SEEKING/PLAY)
wholly dictating
ATTENTION

Emotions and attention

SB_UK
10-11-15, 03:23 AM
Simply stated - individuals and the global sum of individuals seizing the higher creative reward system is all we require.
Downstream consequences - all of our problems will naturally resolve.

Persistent problems - can we clean up the planet ?

Remember - the parent should make the child put away their toys after playing - and 'as below so above' must apply.

We've introduced many things into this world which cannot be bio-degraded back into the eco-system.

That's my biggest concern - our drive towards concrete, plastic, raw material depletion, persistent waste eg nuclear waste.

Doesnt really matter how much we're producing - it's the fact that we produce them at all - which is inconsistent with the elegance of completed mind.

Inelegance hurts the mind - it's a thorn in the side of mind - nature operates through naturally balanced, self-levelling eco-system formation - whereas human beings - particularly in recent years - appear to operate with outstanding disregard to the consequences of their action.

Why generate nuclear waste to lose the heat through poorly insulated housing - whilst having to subject oneself to wage slavery to heat (the space around) your house ?

There's little of any sense in the things human beings (supposedly sapiens !) do.

Unmanagable
10-11-15, 11:01 AM
Trying to make sense in, and of, a nonsensical world. The exact thing that keeps tripping me up daily.

Yet so many seem so comfortable in accepting things as they are, or as they've been taught it should be, and continue to mercilessly expect others to strive to meet the demands of what is so obviously destroying us. Because, "that's just the way it is".

Trying to make myself fit into those various expected roles is what took me down into some deep sorrowful places I didn't know existed. Grateful for the experiences and wisdom gained on the painful and often wretched journey.

It seems the dots keep getting connected so clearly by some, yet remain totally invisible to many. Obstructed vision and views are what the destruction seems to rely on and strives aggressively to maintain.

Thanks to all for your input in helping my mind explore this more.

mildadhd
10-11-15, 12:42 PM
"..increased demand" (Dr Hans Selye)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJCeDtNh_Aw

SB_UK
10-11-15, 01:53 PM
"..increased demand" (Dr Hans Selye)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJCeDtNh_Aw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJCeDtNh_Aw)


Imagine decreased demand.

And its effects on economics.

Imagine decreased demand.

And its effects on man.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could move past needing to eat to survive.

SB_UK
10-11-15, 01:54 PM
Trying to make sense in, and of, a nonsensical world. The exact thing that keeps tripping me up daily.

Yet so many seem so comfortable in accepting things as they are, or as they've been taught it should be, and continue to mercilessly expect others to strive to meet the demands of what is so obviously destroying us. Because, "that's just the way it is".

Trying to make myself fit into those various expected roles is what took me down into some deep sorrowful places I didn't know existed. Grateful for the experiences and wisdom gained on the painful and often wretched journey.

It seems the dots keep getting connected so clearly by some, yet remain totally invisible to many. Obstructed vision and views are what the destruction seems to rely on and strives aggressively to maintain.

Thanks to all for your input in helping my mind explore this more.

Thanks and apologies for all routes leading back to just 1 idea.

2:49 onwards 'I guess it comes down to a simple choice ... ... '

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tkzc983aE0

Sun, silence { no memory }

Memory is over-rated.

Who wants to remember what human beings are like ?

You don't need memory to be silent in the sun.

The sun and silence are free.

No human being can find a way to charge you for them.

Greedy human beings.

Best forgotten.

Unmanagable
10-11-15, 06:33 PM
After spending my afternoon immersed in sun and sound at a drum circle, I'm totally feelin' your vibe, SB. Then I had to work my way back through the rest of society to get back home to fix dinner. lol But it sure was nice while it lasted. :)

SB_UK
10-12-15, 01:30 AM
After spending my afternoon immersed in sun and sound at a drum circle, I'm totally feelin' your vibe, SB. Then I had to work my way back through the rest of society to get back home to fix dinner. lol But it sure was nice while it lasted. :)

I guess it's important also to note that because of the relationship between memory and emotion -
that since emotionally charged imprints memory and emotion may be driven by either higher (positive) or lower (primitive, negative) emotion -
and that we predominantly live within immersion in a set of conventions which drive lower/negative/primitive emotions
- that one arrives at the conclusion that memory is painful.

ie emotions and attention to emotions and memory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_and_memory).

However - if our collective environment drove us to feel positive emotions - then these also would imprint on memory
- rescuing memory.

That memory isn't intrinsically bad - simply that memory (like reward) obeys the choice we make.

If we 'get busy dying' and derive addictive reward - we 'learn' pursuit (become better at pursuit) of addictive reward - which is by definition incompatible with healthy living
- reward, behaviour, memory ie intrinsic aspects of what the individual holds to be themself - then warped out of choice by taking the wrong (if happiness is the aim) path.

The social choice is the selfish choice.
The selfish choice is the wrong choice.

It's unsurprising that human beings are so confused - since there's deep ambiguity in words - and deconvoluting words is the task that we're set
- 'getting our heads in order' - in order to -
well - see Unmanagable's signature.

From mind to appropriate (reflexive) behaviour.

Once we know what is right and what is wrong - we do what is right.
As long as there's doubt - and addictive reward - the individual will play the loopholes and pursue their own inadvertent untimely demise.

All solved by accepting a global voluntaryist dismantling the current global capitalist structure.

A collective exploration (a life spent investigating) into - just how creative can you be ??

win - win

individual - collective

mildadhd
10-12-15, 06:51 PM
The OP link authors, recommends that teachers teach the children about emotions.

I definitely agree.

In addition, to speed up the pace I recommend that all human families be taught about affective consciousness and cognitive consciousness.

Adults learning about unconditioned emotional-affective function, before the conditioned emotional functioning occurs.

(I can't force anyone to use basic specific emotional-affective neuroscientific terms but I do think affective terminology recommended by Prof Panksepp is key to understanding emotional feelings)

It's a wonderful feeling to when people make an attempt to consider, bottom-up and top down working together.



P

SB_UK
10-12-15, 10:48 PM
It's a wonderful feeling to when people make an attempt to consider, bottom-up and top down working together.



P

The union of so called 'hearts' (bottom up) and so called 'minds' (top down).

The two must not diverge.

'HEART' SEEKs 'drugs' - rejected by MIND - it is irrational to choose a path which does not improve individual health.
'MIND' SEEKs 'patent' - rejected by HEART - it is irrational to choose a path which does not improve collective health.

Information just wants to be free.

There's liberation in letting go - of everything.

Zero Seven

Nine to five
Living lies
Everyday
Stealing time
Everyone's taking everything they can
Everything they can
Everyone's taking everything they can
Everything they can

Do you believe '<- SO CALLED MINDS'
In what you feel '<- SO CALLED 'HEARTS'
It doesn't seem to be anybody else who agrees with me"how can you ever heal, when you've lost the ability to feel!"

To acquire EMOTIONAL sensitivity, by NURTURING the capacity to FEEL.
... ... is the definition of the acquisition of inteinsic QUALITY.

-*-

... ... and what's the enemy of quality.

PRIMITIVE reward system.

-*-

Is the PRIMITIVE reward system bad ?
It's a developmental reward system which is supposed to drive us to grow and then complete growth (to attain mind, to attain wisdom, to attain enforced moral consistency, to become human).

But

If we chase empty reward (activation of that reward system in a manner which does not also contribute towards completing mind) then we travel through insensitivity into addiction to factors which activate - as opposed to through understanding towards releasing ourselves from the developmental into the higher reward system.

And ADDers ?
Are gifted (since ADDers are gifted sensitivity which associates with development of the higher reward system) - with difficulty in taking the 'wrong' (addictive reward to oblivion) path.

What happens if we take the correct path (towards transcending ie out-growing primitive reward) in this current world ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NTUmrOfyUA

We lose A Creed.

(DI)stress is an element of all diseases (Hans Selye); (DI)stress is much more easily activated in the sensitivie indvidual.

-*-

Sensitity cannot fight against insensitivity
- it can only show insensitivity a better way and hope that insensitivity can see that its chosen path (towards reward, addiction and oblivion) is leading the individual to no place good.

SB_UK
10-12-15, 10:58 PM
And in one line
Reward can be obtained via (in effect) the right and the wrong path - where the choice of which path one takes is one's own - but where pursuit of one and only one path can lead to freedom, life, happiness.

More simply
'life as a journey towards (towards actual arrival at) right motivation'* yielding (from development to completion) union of 'heart and mind' driving behaviour (from development to completion) compatible with individual health and happiness.
* covered elsewhere here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path#Wisdom)

Even More simply
To have fun.

It's interesting that human beings don't rebel against the dull world of bureaucracy and box ticking which we've laid out for ourselves, to qualify at death for a certificate which states that the individual has gained ISO 666 - a life which has passed quality control certification.
An enquiry into morality

Something additional to throw into our coffin as we're burnt ? Handsomely scribed parch-me(a)nt paper ?
This life is more than just a read-through.


The entire eight-fold path can be brought down to an unceasing drive towards acquiring a positive, creative, generative, better environment for one and all - which places the capacity for change in world view dependent on information as paramount.
Not closing one's mind off to new information, not clinging to legacy models of understanding for reasons of comfort.

There comes a time when one's mind wants to be wrong.

Because only through being wrong (or imparting new world view) - can the mind improve.

The experiential perspective of the drive towards 'right motivation' is (peculiarly) enjoying it when one corrects (extends, adds context to) one's own (one thereafter sees) misunderstanding.

From Newtonian physics, to Einstein's physics, to quantum physics - to a single evolutionary connected model of phenomenological reality
- it's unfair to suggest that the simpler models are incorrect - just that they're incomplete.

If all the mind has 'is a hammer' - then all the mind may see the world is, 'as a nail'.

SB_UK
10-12-15, 11:34 PM
So - emotions and attention.

What holds one's attention will relate to what one finds rewarding.

If one finds one's wealth, one's title, personal fame etc 'rewarding' then pursue it one shall - and suffer one will.

Wealth, title, fame are fleeting.

There's only one path worth taking if personal happiness is required - and that's (in effect) towards the development of mind (into not caring for any of those wholly pointless (all of our minds know) activities).

So - do we attempt to denigrate these behaviours or to transcend them through supplanting other behaviours ?
'Right' approach doesn't particularly approve of negative criticism if applied for reasons of personal feelings of satisfaction - any negative criticism needs to be separated from personal feelings of satisfaction into the scientific model of explanation.

It might be bad to pursue money, power, abuse of other people
- but we shouldn't feel good at being better than people who pursue these behaviours.

Simply people being mislead by society into taking the wrong path, and driving themselves headlong into oblivion.

Best to help a species-wide awakening rather than to gloat.

Noting that the tendency to gloat places one (ie deriving reward from in effect 'power') in exactly the same (ie the primitive) reward system (ie positioning oneself into a notional human hierarchy and deriving satisfaction from it) as those who occupy the higher hierarchical positions in the Marxist pyramid - for reasons pertaining to some variation on a theme of 'greed'.

Uniform - 'wrong' motivation in those who enjoy (derive reward from) being better than others, or those who enjoy (derive reward from) being better than others.

Personal freedom is unlocked by operating on oneself - no other person holds the key to your freedom.

SB_UK
10-13-15, 01:14 AM
It's a wonderful feeling to when people make an attempt to consider, bottom-up and top down working together.

==
The union of so called 'hearts' (bottom up) and so called 'minds' (top down).

Alleviation of suffering through union.

from (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path#Wisdom)
... cognitive and emotional causes of suffering.

The emotional cause is desire and its negative opposite, aversion.
The cognitive cause is ignorance of the way things truly occur, or of three marks of existence: that all things are unsatisfactory, impermanent, and without essential self.

ie this:
If we chase empty reward (activation of that reward system in a manner which does not also contribute towards completing mind) then we travel through insensitivity into addiction to factors which activate
ie desire/aversion in pursuits generating empty reward leading to insensitivity and addiction towards those pursuits.
and this:
Wealth, title, fame are fleeting.

SB_UK
10-13-15, 01:49 PM
Summarising
[3] Addiction reward system is biologically implanted to assist physical growth and 'to become better' is implanted to assist mental (learning) growth.

... ... then along came a spider.

The researchers think it works by slashing a hormone which encourages growth, and has been linked to cancer susceptibility. Essentially it tricks the body into ageing more slowly. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11925154/Deleting-genes-could-boost-lifespan-by-60-per-cent-say-scientists.html

Transition to higher reward system.
Reduce ageing.
Evade cancer.

And all for the princely sum of far less than the average individual is currently spending in driving (citing pretty much every aspect (physical, environmental, social, cultural etc) of the Western lifestyle) their own premature (and painful) death.

SB_UK
10-13-15, 11:13 PM
Getting one's head around the evolutionary process - and how it gives rise to the world around - within which human beings (with mind) are of particular note ... ... shifts us (just by virtue) away from a life of pursuing empty reward.

How can an individual with a mind which is defined on generating a fair world embracing equality - engage in 'money' which is defined on generating an unfair world of increasing inequality ?

How can an individual with a mind which is defined on generating a clean world - engage in 'polluting' industries which are defined on generating a world of increasing toxic grime ?

How can an individual with a mind which is defined on providing a better world for subsequent generations - engage in saddling them with debt - which (by definition) is not dissimilar in principle to the innocent children of criminals inheriting their life sentence.

Who are the irresponsible, dirty, abusive adults in all of this ?
All of those people who are not fighting for a shift from global capitalism to global voluntaryism.

Voluntaryism removes co-ercion nstates personal reward eliminates distress in ADDer from being unable to attent to pointless, immoral concerns.

If you're not disordered in this current world - then you are broken.

SB_UK
10-13-15, 11:15 PM
Emotions and AttentionCurrent world
Unpleasant emotion
Incapacity to comply (attend)

Do people really want people to be so absent in mind that they're able to be happily complicit in committing crimes against themselves (and all others) ?

It is no sign of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

Are people 'evil' ?
No - somewhere between misguided and logically inconsistent.
The instruction set (mind) need be in place before people operate sensibly.
And this last period of 30,000 years and particularly the last 5,000 years has been all about putting that instruction set into place.

Nobody wants to kill you.
No aliens will appear in the next while to destroy your planet.
Nobody wants what you have.

The only threat to you - is you - through not behaving consistently with your own wellbeing.

mildadhd
10-17-15, 03:04 PM
SEEKING system is good.

What is attention without a SEEKING system?

What is life without a SEEKING system?


P

mildadhd
10-17-15, 03:23 PM
SEEKING and Negative feeling emotional-affect.

SEEKING and FEAR and Attention
SEEKING and RAGE and Attention
SEEKING and GRIEF and Attention



SEEKING and Positive feeling emotional-affect.

SEEKING and LUST and Attention
SEEKING and CARE and Attention
SEEKING and PLAY and Attention

Unmanagable
10-17-15, 04:01 PM
Ahhhhh.........makes me think of one of my favorite tunes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzb-VmUCaxM

Kunga Dorji
10-17-15, 10:55 PM
I read this today and found it rather interesting. I'll leave it to the hardcore science brains to determine its perceived worthiness, but it seems like at least a valid observation that could lead to helpful information. One that seems to be overlooked in the arenas I've sought help in, lived in, worked in, etc.

It seems like a vicious cycle where we hope to be able to teach the children that it's okay to be in tune with your emotions, but those having the children and doing the teaching aren't so sure of how to do it themselves, so we continue to be set up for the whole "faking it" scene.

We're left with no tools, or many of the wrong generic tools that leave many individuals out of the loop, to recognize and process emotions. But at the same time, we all receive a boat load of expectations to keep our emotions under control and randomly pretend to be the ones we are not, depending heavily, and sometimes solely, on the expectations of others.

Who has energy left after sorting through all of that stuff inside of our minds and hearts to be able to focus on all the other areas of life passing us by? The programming of how things "should" be starts tripping us up very early in life.

http://theconversation.com/children-who-understand-emotions-become-more-attentive-over-time-44819


Antonio Damasio ( neurologist) describes emotions as "behaviour activation packages", and, in fact, our emotions and our intuitions govern most of our behaviours.

Fear, and anger very firmly direct our attention towards the subjects of those emotions.

Probably 5% (or less) of our behaviours are consciously selected. The rest are driven by our intuitions and the directing of our attention by emotional information fed into our right brain.

The issue is that in ADHD, due to a number of causes, there is a near constant state of sympathetic arousal, driving hypervigilance. So attention can be pulled rapidly from one subject to another.

The chronicity of this state of hyperarousal means that it becomes near invisible- it is "normal" or "just the way we are".

However, it is all pervasive in our lives.

We sit to work, but feel restless and bored, feel that there is something wrong somewhere, something that we have missed, something else that is more important for us to attend to.

Equally it affects our body language and tone of voice- so we can look anxious or angry when we are not. It can also impact on the intensity of our emotional response- so we struggle to say no to someone without sounding or looking too intense. We can repress that, and become "yes people" who just comply-- but eventually that strategy leaves us either overloaded or feeling cut off from ourselves and others.

I remember well in early primary school and kindergarten, struggling to relate to other kids. Struggling with intense emotional reactions that would come from nowhere. Struggling with not fitting in because of my clumsiness. Struggling with close friendships that would suddenly die, apparently inexplicably.

I know myself, and the causes of my ADHD pretty well, well enough to know that the causes of the emotional dysregulation were largely physiological- secondary consequences of the neurological derangement caused by a birth injury. I can even recall/ reconstruct my past well enough to see that I actually had a pretty good attachment to my parents. The physiological causes still cause problems for me now- though nowadays they are less likely to cause impulsive irritability, brain fog and restlessness, and more likely to simply cause physical pain, and episodes of muscle tension, sweats and blurred vision. Previously I would have identified them as anxiety and blamed them on external circumstances. Now- they are just a damaged body. Anxiety does arise- but based on a realistic concern that keeping going at work with these limitations might not be possible for much longer. However the biggest problem is loneliness, as I struggle to build better relationships with a very limited basis of energy and motivation secondary to the physical problems.

Nowadays I look at people who were more comfortable with normal day to day interactions as kids, and see that, as adults of my age, they are protected by a much stronger buffer of self assurance and connectedness than myself, or most other ADHD people of my age that I know.

I'm glad to see the stronger emphasis on teaching emotional intelligence in children now. The new work in this area is being informed by good science that also fits with plain common sense and the guiding principals of all the major spiritual traditions. It helps to be able to think that maybe there is a change of heart occurring in our society, and there is a possibility of a better
future.

Kunga Dorji
10-17-15, 11:05 PM
Trying to make sense in, and of, a nonsensical world. The exact thing that keeps tripping me up daily.

Yet so many seem so comfortable in accepting things as they are, or as they've been taught it should be, and continue to mercilessly expect others to strive to meet the demands of what is so obviously destroying us. Because, "that's just the way it is".

Trying to make myself fit into those various expected roles is what took me down into some deep sorrowful places I didn't know existed. Grateful for the experiences and wisdom gained on the painful and often wretched journey.

It seems the dots keep getting connected so clearly by some, yet remain totally invisible to many. Obstructed vision and views are what the destruction seems to rely on and strives aggressively to maintain.

Thanks to all for your input in helping my mind explore this more.

In many ways ADHD is pretty simple-- due to the consistent de-railing of our attention, everything is about 20% harder.

BUT- the fact that the cause of that difficulty is physiologically based in the automatic parts of the brain (subcortical structures such as brainstem, cerebellum and basal ganglia) and is not directly amenable to cognitive interventions such as "trying harder" (which we are ALREADY doing), is not obvious to us, nor to those with the "obstructed vision".

Living (and surviving, both economically and socially) in the world with a majority of people who do not have that invisible disability, is hard going- but the invisibility makes our lack of success look like simple laziness or incompetence.

The bottom line is, though, that if we do not recognise it for what it is trying to compete with the non ADHD to build a successful life on their terms of success will drive us into exhaustion and despair.

SB is very right in his emphasis on non material goals.

Kunga Dorji
10-17-15, 11:15 PM
The first thing I thought of was all the times it feels like my thoughts are provoking emotion. It seems hard to tell on some days which comes first. Bodily reactions to cellular memories of past experience trips it all up for me, too......happening before the thought OR emotion reaches my awareness.


It works both ways-
Physical states can initiate emotional events and those events can drive us into one thinking pattern.

Thoughts can trigger emotional states and trigger the physical sequilae of the emotion (ie dwell too long on a negative thought and the emotion program kicks in, then comes the physical experience.

All of these mechanisms are much more prone to happen when we are tired, over taxed, or affected by drugs or alcohol.

I am still struggling with waking with negative thoughts and feelings that can go away with 20 minutes of getting up, getting going, doing even a little mindfulness/Tai Chi.

I honestly think that mindfulness approaches based on mindfulness of body, self compassion, and awareness of the transience of both negative and positive estates remains the best way to work with this turbulence.

Bottom line - I look for both positive and negative feedback loops in my experience and look for ways to disrupt unhelpful positive feedback loops.

Emphasis here is a positive feedback loop intensifies the current experiential state, and a negative loop attenuates it.

mildadhd
10-17-15, 11:20 PM
The issue is that in ADHD, due to a number of causes, there is a near constant state of sympathetic arousal, driving hypervigilance. So attention can be pulled rapidly from one subject to another.

The chronicity of this state of hyperarousal means that it becomes near invisible- it is "normal" or "just the way we are".

However, it is all pervasive in our lives.

We sit to work, but feel restless and bored, feel that there is something wrong somewhere, something that we have missed, something else that is more important for us to attend to.

Equally it affects our body language and tone of voice- so we can look anxious or angry when we are not...


So that is why some people think I look confused or angry when I am not.

Is ADD the same as ADHD?



P

Kunga Dorji
10-18-15, 12:23 AM
So that is why some people think I look confused or angry when I am not.

Yes.
It is a frustrating experience- is it not?
What is worse is the times when people don't verbalise it-- they just avoid you.

I have had that reaction at times when I have been perfectly at ease in the situation (listening to a new band that I was really enjoying at a venue).

However it is harder in intense interpersonal situations-- where if I put my foot down over a situation that I am no longer prepared to accept, it can come across as being too intense.
IE In a difficult situation my self regulation of facial expression becomes very difficult- so I am left with 2 equally undesirable options-- expressing my disapproval in such an emotionally neutral way that it is not taken seriously, or coming across as too intensely furious (when I am simply aiming to punctuate some point I am making with some body language).
Neither option works well, and finding the "fine control knob" that allows for a happy medium of expression is something I still struggle with.


Is ADD the same as ADHD?


More or less, yes.
ADD is the DSM III definition.
ADHD (with or without hyperactivity) is the DSM IV term.

ADHD is not a unitary illness though- it is a cluster of phenomena, all of which, in impacting the tertiary phenomenon of willful direction of attention, produce a similar phenotype.

Dysfunctional attention produces a similar range outcomes no matter what the cause.

Every ADHD individual is different- and those differences relate to individual strengths that mitigate the attention problem.

I would argue that the biggest differences by far lie between the ADHD individuals who have the full hand of dyslexic and coordination symptoms
(about 80%) +/- other learning disabilities and those who have a more simple problem that does not involve coordination.

The other big points of difference relates to the impact of emotional trauma- there are ADHD individuals who do not have much of this- and their problem is much milder than those of us who are impacted by such trauma.

Trauma can take many forms though:
- basic poor initial attachment
- good attachment into an insecure environment: those parental fights can have a big effect on a young child's basic sense of security
- good attachment, but a bad social experience at school.





P[/quote]

mildadhd
10-18-15, 01:05 AM
Yes, it is frustrating, especially when I am enjoying myself and some people assume otherwise.

(Side note: I didn't forget about our previous conversations. I lost my copy of "Self Comes To Mind", and have looked everywhere, several times, I hope to get a new copy someday)

After thinking about it for just a few minutes, I wonder if I read other people's facial expressions incorrectly myself?

Somethings to be more aware of for sure.

Thanks for all the remindfulness.



P

SB_UK
10-18-15, 02:43 AM
Bit exploratory - have always liked the idea of resonance (physics).
It's one of those ideas like magnetism which is :-) attractive.

http://video.mit.edu/watch/tuning-forks-resonance-a-beat-frequency-11447/

Imagine if you were a tuning fork.

When would you pay attention ?

When another tuning fork hit your frequency ?

However ?

What if you were an evolving tuning fork ?

Explain ?

Well a tuning fork is defined by a 'frequency' and neural networks arrange and form and are defined by a firing rate or frequency - and so our brain can be considered to be a collection of evolving tuning forks ?

Aha !
[But how does the neural network know how to form in order to resonate ?]

SB_UK
10-18-15, 02:57 AM
Aha !



Interesting part - since we can characterize all aspects of evolution as:

time -> male [+] / female [-,balance] archetype spatial dimension
ie
t - 2s evolves (eg Planck time and Planck length standing wave at Big Bang as the first 2 phenomenological constructs)

ie periodicity of evolutionary constructs increases with evolution

{{missing out explanation}}


[B]Summary
SEEK
- noting relationship between dopamine production and reward anticipation - evolving resonator towards achieving resonation.
How ?
Standard theory of nerve - to recognize phenomenological world signal (2s) - but this masks the underlying t (time dimension) in the t-2s nature of all Universal constructs.
What's actually happening is that the neural network is shaping from 2s to establish a t-2s resonation in the external signal to the neural firing frequency in the SEEKing neural network.

IE it's a bit like seeing and being pulled (SEEK) to draw a door on the wall.
But as soon as the door is drawn (PLAY) - we are able to open and travel through it.

Simpler
SEEK - PLAY as key components of the dopaminergic system.
Both understood from a model of neurone as resonator.
Resonator put in place by 2s [SEEK] mimic initially prior to t-2s full resonance [play] possible.Placing more emphasis on neural network formation, relationship of firing / network firing frequency to function.t-2s feels similar in principle to sensory - cerebellar - motor ie 2 cortical 2 and 1 cerebellar t (ie articulation) loops.... ... ...

Simpler
The nerve and learning may be understood as an evolution-able tuning fork.

-> MIT video above

SB_UK
10-18-15, 02:58 AM
Musical chills do feel like 'resonance'.

-*-

ADDer reward system - through 'learning' (definition - construction of nervous system) towards resonance through the senses.

-*-

Linking senses -> mirror neurone system (a way of describing resonance ie mirroring is resonance)

... ... and ... ...

Figure 1 from Damasio and Siegel

http://www.atdynamics.co.uk/7-B8-V3-EMPATHY,%20MIRROR%20NEURNES%20AND%20PRE%20FRONTAL% 20CORTEX-AS-pp.pdf

5 senses -> Mirror Neurone System
5 senses -> ALL SENSES.

SB_UK
10-18-15, 03:04 AM
This is a really attractive model.

As it provides us with a mechanism whereby a fundamental aspect of the Universe ie a periodicity associated with all evolutionary manifest/phenomenological constructs can be captured and produce pleasure in an appropriately tuned neural network ie defined by a frequency periodicity which matches the frequency periodicity associated with the aspect of reality which the neural network is being / trained to.

SB_UK
10-18-15, 03:08 AM
And we can wrap all emotions into this model - as an expression of the nerve/neural network in chasing intuition into resonance.

So - bad emotions when we travel away from resonance - and good emotions when we travel towards.

The key idea is that qualtiy of sensory input (phenomenological) provides us with input - but that it's the temporal dimension which underlies signal which is going to give rise (when we've learnt) - to resonance.

-*-

Time thereby takes primacy of place in understanding nerve.

SB_UK
10-18-15, 03:13 AM
So yes.

ADDer reward system - relates to learning (broad sense - unrelated to Western style education which is not learning cf individual doesn't become intrinsically better as a consequence of conveyor belt education).

This is a fundamentally neural erward system - one in which achieving resonance between signal (sensory input) occurs.

Simply learning facts is easy - but produces no feedback (reward).

Reward Reinforcement Resonance - RRReality - good.

And so we do not attend.

-*-

But what of the comaprison between a 'live concert' and a 'recording representation'.

A 'recording representation' won't capture the same nature as a 'live concert' but will have its own quality which we may train to.
So - perhaps less complex - but we may still train to it - and we have the great advantage in being able to repeat it at will.

Dropping us into the use of high quality, high definition, high fidelity electronic information delivery devices.

-*-

Can training to these devices take us out of reality ?
That appears to be a common finding currently.

Reward reinfocement resonance with information driving the individual to stay close to their electronic device.

-*-

getting high on information

-*-

What defines whether information is addictive ?

Wisdom state defines a cut-off whereby 'addictiveness' reward system is transcended.

IE context (science) opens the door to a series of behaviours which prior to wisdom are addiction-courting.

SB_UK
10-18-15, 03:32 AM
Superficial signal recognition -> Neural network formation -> Neural oscillation -> effector signal - matched/learned affector construct resonance

Neural oscillation is rhythmic or repetitive neural activity in the central nervous system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system). Neural tissue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_tissue) can generate oscillatory activity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillation) in many ways, driven either by mechanisms within individual neurons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurons) or by interactions between neurons. In individual neurons, oscillations can appear either as oscillations in membrane potential (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membrane_potential) or as rhythmic patterns of action potentials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potentials), which then produce oscillatory activation of post-synaptic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-synaptic_potential) neurons. At the level of neural ensembles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_ensemble), synchronized activity of large numbers of neurons can give rise to macroscopic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroscopic_scale) oscillations, which can be observed in the electroencephalogram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography) (EEG).

Theta EEG ADDer.
Widely accepted as being the creative EEG.

What does creative mean ?
Simply freeflow evolution of increasing complexity in information handling ability which can then be copied by others.

Development of cortical and then cortical-cerebellar loops defiend by a frequency of firing which then can be replicated within others.

SEEK - PLAY - TOGETHER.

SB_UK
10-18-15, 03:38 AM
Too abstract - what is the ADDer reward system ?

We get a sense of reward when we see beauty, when we generate elegance, when we're flexible, when we're not in pain, when we're not subject to nonsense, when we're free to theta daydream solutions, when we create - particulalry information, when we provide somebody with something they want be it something or some information, when we generate self-sustaining systems (ie don't need to spend time repairing them) ie a fundamentally collaborative quality beased reward system.

Yes - but how do you connect quality reward system into the idea of neural oscillator resonance ?

Don't understand - development of increasing neural oscillator resonance is the definition of quality.

SEEK (formation) - PLAY (completion - resonance) - TOGETHER (resonance)

-*-

Why is this model challenging ?
Because it places the genome and the connectome on fundamentally different levels.

The genome cares about survival.
The connectome cares about happy.

Which is why 'survival of the fittest' - genome representation of evolution doesn't seem right when considered through the mind's eye.

Human beings don't want to just plain survive.

Human beings want (reward reinforcement resonance) to have fun.

-*-

An image to simplify

Imagine the mind/brain/neural network as an evolving glockenspiel each bar as a tuning fork - with the idea being to develop that glockenspiel and then to play - each strike producing resonance, each combination producing resonance ie to play as complex a musical piece with scaling resonance (resonant feedack) occurring.

SB_UK
10-18-15, 03:58 AM
And what would the evolution of modern man represent ?

Instead of simply looking at classical senses and resonance between developing neural network firing frequency and timed periodicity of sensory signals -

- human beings as a single species - appear to represent the capacity for each individual taken as a whole to resonate with another.= cf capacity for communication (abstract)

So - animal or brain.
external sense -> resonance within brain.

Mind -
human EEG -> resonance with another mind/brain.

Integral of brain is mind - consistent with an idea of evolution operating by transcendence via integration (maths).

-*-

Theta (Schumann resonance prime node carrier wave) wave adapted and then to generate as complex a pattern in that wave.

With the thinking mind - to generate people who are able to construcitvely interfere (ie are compatible) on the basic wave.
And then for individual to generate individual comlexity - which feeds back to the species-level wave - generating an evolving model for information content in a shared species-wide repository of information.

More simply
The thinking mind - at wisdom - establishes itself as a musical instrument which is defined as playing in time, in tune etc with another (all others) who've attained wisdom.
With wisdom - more 'instruments' become available to play together,
The following stage though is for each individual to 'play' - and what we will then see is an unfolding complexity in the symphony which is then created.
With play we will see resonant feeback occur at the level of our quality defining neural net oscillators.
NOTE - don't worry about other people - we're thereafter defined to produce music which is cross-compatible with others.
(evolutionary motif - the ant is synchronized by virtue of existence)
This unfolding complexity towards increasing informational [<- the evoutionary rubric] entropy is a model of what the intended human reward system (higher reward system) is defined (evolutionarily) as being.

SB_UK
10-18-15, 04:09 AM
^^^ That's very good.

Wisdom defines a cut-off between addictiveness (by definition self harm - addiction/dependence has no positive aspect) propensity and creativity.
Although wisdom can come to all - it is prevented in our current society, since the dominant system (money,law) which people're forced to adhere to - prevents the acquisition of personal quality.

Simply define a world without co-ercion (where people don't need to earn money for free survival) - and people will be helped to pursue individual quality ... ... .... and not actively prevented from it.

Money (the effect it has on people) is bad.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130704213118/poohadventures/images/8/87/Smeagol.png

Unmanagable
10-18-15, 12:22 PM
I've painfully learned within the last 3ish years that the free counseling I now receive surpasses ANY AND ALL of the paid sessions I attended (involving many in multiple levels of professionals in the mental health arena - psychologists, psychiatrists, and licensed professional counselors). I had previously sought out only those providers who accepted my insurance and suffered through years of misdiagnosis while they actively ignored very relevant circumstances involving severe and repeated trauma.

Same goes with the alternative methods of healing I've chosen, like acupuncture, massage therapy, sound healing, drum circles, registered dietitian, master herbalist, breath work instructor, yoga teachers, etc. I was under no pressure or obligation to pay money to receive the benefits. Was allowed to barter time/goods/services instead of relying on cash or complicated processes all of the time as my only path to getting help.

What life changing differences each of those experiences have made, and continue to make. I feel not having the pressures of having to acquire a lot of money before I could ever even think of acquiring the help lessened the stress enough to where I was able to open up and receive the benefits.

I do see benefits in keeping the flow of the money, while there's still some flowing, as much within the local community of reputable healers, organic food growers, etc. as we can. Supporting only that which truly sustains.

The energy that resides along the path the stuff we feel the need to acquire/watch/eat/listen to remains with the stuff and attaches to us. Not an easy thing for me to knowingly enter into when I have to navigate the masses, but it doesn't seem to bother many others. It bothers me on many levels. So much so that I more often than not choose to keep to self to maintain my few remaining threads of sanity.

SB_UK
10-18-15, 02:51 PM
I just wonder whether the intended role of money was to help drive people to the point of realization that there's nothing that the individual can buy which the individual needs to be happy.

At the point of realization - the 'love/desire' of money will de facto be eliminated.

You're left in a somewhat bemused state that the rest of the world is so enamoured by something of no worth.

A bit like 'money can't buy you love' but as ever we have to define what the Beatles meant by 'love'.

Love - 'back to the garden'
- to reach a point where existence is enough.

Where the 'grass is greener from the other side of the fence' of the Garden of Eden no longer applies - as it once did when the famous couple made that (necessary) decision.

You can't return (and evolution requires (that we leave) change) unless you follow their lead; the unforgivable error would be to fail to reach the realization (at the appropriate time) of where that choice to depart should lead.

SB_UK
10-18-15, 04:03 PM
'grass is greener from the other side of the fence'

grass is greener on the other side of the
This city desert makes you feel so cold. It's got so many people
to
grass is greener back from the other side of the

but it has got no soul

A cyclical evolutionary process.