View Full Version : Do I have it figured all out?


Scaffoldtack
10-18-15, 06:50 PM
Ok so I have been diagnosed adhd for two years. As soon as I started taking medication ( vyvanse and later Ritalin)my whole personality changed. I have a college degree and know that the medications I took for two years( I am no longer on medication) release dopamine( vyvanse ) and inhibit its re uptake (Ritalin). My whole life I realized I was different from everyone. I couldn't sit still or hold a normal conversation... I interrupted people and was extremely restless. These meds inhibited my movement and made everything interesting! And increased my patience dramatically. I also became very social, but I didn't care about anything bad in the world and I made connections in my mind that I have never made before. I seen the world as a whole picture. They also made me extremely hyper sexual ( I'm a male ) even at the lowest dosages. This side effect is what led me to stop the meds.
So my question is if dopamine and or norepinephrine to a lesser extent makes you social. And anti social people are quiet and not social( low dopamine). Then is dopamine what makes you good and bad? With low I'm moody and passive aggressive. With any dopamine releaser I'm hyper social, sexual, and I become a snake in the grass! Is everyone like this?

BellaVita
10-18-15, 07:13 PM
I don't think I'm understanding your question - "Then is dopamine what makes you good and bad?" What do you mean?

I don't think it is about low dopamine, I think it's about dopamine regulation(trying to think of the right word), or something like that.

I don't think scientists know enough about it yet.

Scaffoldtack
10-18-15, 07:30 PM
I know from research that dopamine in the reward areas of the brain cause motivation. And normal amounts make people have a drive and interest in their life. While a high amount can cause aggression, hypersexual behavior, and a lack of remorse for ones actions, and psychosis. Low amounts and you have flat effect and no energy ( Parkinson's ). Is most of our personality and actions based on our dopamine is what I'm trying to ask?

Scaffoldtack
10-18-15, 07:42 PM
I know from research that dopamine in the reward areas of the rain is responsible for motivation. So enough and people are motivated to go to work and conduct their lives. Not enough and their is a flat effect and no energy ( Parkinson's). Too much and there is aggression, hypersexual behavior and a lack of remorse for ones actions. dopamine makes you less sensitive to consequences the higher it gets.

TangledWebs
10-18-15, 07:52 PM
Adderall doesn't make me hyper or more social. I'm actually more talkative and bubbly when I don't take my meds.

mildadhd
10-18-15, 08:04 PM
underarousal (a type of depression)----------dopaminergic pathways----------overarousal (a type of mania?)



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Scaffoldtack
10-18-15, 08:13 PM
Exactly, before meds I was also talkative and happier. The meds made me want to be around people but not necessarily talk more. If it was too much of a dose I became anti social and hypersexual. They made me more serious. Here is the proof about the aggressive behavior and dopamine. http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2010/03/psychopaths-brains-wired-to-seek-rewards-no-matter-the-consequences-109865/
This study showed that criminals with psychopathic traits release 4 times the amount of dopamine in their brain than normal people when given the same dose of amphetamine. This trait causes them to not care about consequences but only the "prize". I believe ADHD can be caused by fear of consequences so a person thinks to much before they act. Where as dopamine causes less fear, in social settings and basically any reward behavior. It stimulates a person to get what they want.

mildadhd
10-18-15, 08:24 PM
In my experience, to much methylphenidate is bad.



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dvdnvwls
10-18-15, 09:00 PM
To the original poster:

No. What you think you've found out is not true.

mildadhd
10-18-15, 09:16 PM
Exactly, before meds I was also talkative and happier. The meds made me want to be around people but not necessarily talk more. If it was too much of a dose I became anti social and hypersexual. They made me more serious. Here is the proof about the aggressive behavior and dopamine. http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2010/03/psychopaths-brains-wired-to-seek-rewards-no-matter-the-consequences-109865/
This study showed that criminals with psychopathic traits release 4 times the amount of dopamine in their brain than normal people when given the same dose of amphetamine. This trait causes them to not care about consequences but only the "prize". I believe ADHD can be caused by fear of consequences so a person thinks to much before they act. Where as dopamine causes less fear, in social settings and basically any reward behavior. It stimulates a person to get what they want.

Distress can result in surge of dopamine.

In my layman opinion, many criminals who do terrible things and described as psychopaths, experienced chronic early life types of abuse.



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Scaffoldtack
10-18-15, 09:23 PM
if not true dvdnvwls... Then how does one explain people not being able to concentrate on tasks, and get things done, (ADD) who take prescribed medications that allow them to function easier, from people who use alcohol or nicotine or rec drugs to complete there daily lives. The adhd meds and the rec drugs all release "dopamine." specifically in the nucleus accumbens (motivation ) and the frontal cortex(executive function). Dopamine in these areas cuts off "worry" in other parts of the brain. That's why people get high to take all there worries away. Unless a person is baseline hyperdopaminergic and then alcohol and sedatives may be there addiction. What I'm trying to learn is if this one neurotransmitter really is responsible for a large portion of our behavior.

Scaffoldtack
10-18-15, 09:34 PM
To peripheral... You are bringing in social factors and abuse. I personally don't think no matter how much a person has been abused that experience will not change their brain biochemistry to release 4 times the amount of dopamine as a normal person In response to a "drug." And dopamine neurons fire less during a stressful event it is only after it is over when it is released. Example ; a person is in a stressful or aversive situation... Adrenaline and glutamate is high... Then it ends... And the feeling of relief "dopamine" the reward is when it is over.

Lunacie
10-18-15, 10:41 PM
So my question is if dopamine and or norepinephrine to a lesser extent makes you social. And anti social people are quiet and not social( low dopamine). Then is dopamine what makes you good and bad? With low I'm moody and passive aggressive. With any dopamine releaser I'm hyper social, sexual, and I become a snake in the grass! Is everyone like this?

No, stimulant meds do not have this effect on everyone who takes them.

In fact, I think your post is the first I've seen where the meds made someone
more sexual, they generally suppress desire and ability. It's possible that the
meds trigger bipolar-type symptoms in you which is not uncommon.

Scaffoldtack
10-18-15, 11:17 PM
Lunacie... Is it maybe a male thing... I know several people who take stimulants, who don't have adhd, to increase desire... The ability part is a physical health thing I believe. And I never had any manic symptoms that I know of or anyone could notice... I always felt in control. maybe I'm just sensitive to their effects. But I still think dopamine highs and lows are the cause of most mental health disorders. High dopamine schizophrenia, psychosis, mania. Low ADHD? And depression?

mildadhd
10-18-15, 11:25 PM
To peripheral... You are bringing in social factors and abuse. I personally don't think no matter how much a person has been abused that experience will not change their brain biochemistry to release 4 times the amount of dopamine as a normal person In response to a "drug." And dopamine neurons fire less during a stressful event it is only after it is over when it is released. Example ; a person is in a stressful or aversive situation... Adrenaline and glutamate is high... Then it ends... And the feeling of relief "dopamine" the reward is when it is over.



Arousal of dopaminergic pathways produces seeking behavior.

When external dopamine reward is received, arousal of internal dopaminergic pathways decreases.

That is one reason why some people with undiagnosed/untreated ADHD self-medicate.

The external reward of dopamine temporarily calms our internal hyperaroused dopaminergic pathways down.

Seeking/wanting behavior is driven by dopaminergic systems, but there is the possibility other associated chemistriesbehaviors involved, vary depending on the other emotional biological systems and emotional experiences involved, the individuals temperament and circumstances, etc...

Some people want heavy blankets, others don't want any blankets, etc.

SEEKING/wanting safety for example, would possibly also involve biologychemistry of the RAGE/fight and FEAR/flight systems emotional distress responses.

I don't claim to understand or doubt your experiences.

I want to learn more, motivated to learn about different chemistries and associated emotional behaviors, thanks.

superduperlayhuman. (SEEKING/curious)



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SB_UK
10-19-15, 12:07 AM
In ADDers - a little normalizes ie shifts underarousal into 'normality'.
Too much shifts 'normality' into hyper-functioning.

which is what Peripheral has just written.

under - normal - hyper.

The key is to hit 'normal'.

Under - a life without 'fun'.

Over - supposed to occur through naturally motivational activities ie doing something positive you enjoy - encouraging persistence.

Presumably though what it is you enjoy will be seized on by over-arousal - and the decision to attend to a classical self-medication vs self-improvement will be determined by that which one is most oriented (driven to gaining (although potentially not gaining prior to medication) most reward from) towards.

-*-

The meds allow us functionality.

But what do we choose to use that functionality on ?

We could just re-inforce 'drug seeking' behaviour ie bad behaviours to obtain more dopamine.
Or we could be pulled towards 'good' behaviors which allow us more dopamine through a sustainable (as opposed to an addictive) route.

So ... ... ... 2 paths to obtaining dopamine.

The meds can either help us to be 'smart' in attaining adictive reward or more smart in transcending addictive reward.

Which path the individual chooses is determined by the path which the individual is drawn towards.

Presumably the transcendental approach requires a social environment which is supportive - and the 'usual' drug seekign path is similarly caused by an adverse environment - in which selection of that form of behaviour is made.

So - imagine taking the meds in a highly competitive environment- you'll use the drugs to provide you with a competitive edge - and they'll work - but the reward one obtains from competition is of the addictive form - as you'll never achieve 'ultimate' status.

Now - imagine takign the meds to study for interest - for understanding - take this route and you will eventually find the world around you maing sense - at which point 'no further questions' - the SEEK aspect of dopamine will have benshifted from drug-SEEKing into what we might call s/he that is lost being FOUND.

Once FOUND - does SEEKing end ?

No - Maslow describes what follows as the self-actualized state SEEKing periods of PEAK EXPERIENCE - ie moments of sensory immersion which trigger dopaminergic resonation.

http://psychology.about.com/od/humanist-personality/f/peak-experiences.htm

SB_UK
10-19-15, 12:11 AM
Arousal of dopaminergic pathways produces seeking behavior.

When external dopamine reward is received, arousal of internal dopaminergic pathways decreases.

That is one reason why some people with undiagnosed/untreated ADHD self-medicate.

The external reward of dopamine temporarily calms our internal hyperaroused dopaminergic pathways down.

Seeking/wanting behavior is driven by dopaminergic systems, but there is the possibility other associated chemistriesbehaviors involved, vary depending on the other emotional biological systems and emotional experiences involved, the individuals temperament and circumstances, etc...

Some people want heavy blankets, others don't want any blankets, etc.

SEEKING/wanting safety for example, would possibly also involve biologychemistry of the RAGE/fight and FEAR/flight systems emotional distress responses.

I don't claim to understand or doubt your experiences.

I want to learn more, motivated to learn about different chemistries and associated emotional behaviors, thanks.

superduperlayhuman. (SEEKING/curious)



P

^^ that's it.


Let's say you've had your blindfold removed with meds.
What do you SEEK ?

Easy (addictive) reward or to overcome (addictive) reward.

Do we overcome reward {{{period}}} ?
No - reward is required for motivation.

However - shifting reward systems is so radical that it can feel as though reward is being overcome ?
It's a little like deriving energy from food vs from radiation - although you are still deriving energy from a fuel source which resides outside of the body - the experience is so radically different that everything in one's experiential toolbox which characterizes 'eating' is screaming out (although it isn't true) that you've transcended 'eating'. The plant 'eats' radiation.

-*-

Simply then - hand someone functionality.
And the individual will (dopamine) motivate towards behaviours which ally with reward anticipation.

What does the individual's life experience suggest - when enacted - will result in the acquisition of reward ?

So - in the Shawshank Redemption -
there was a class of prisoner that would abuse other prisoners - and there was a class of prisoner that enjoyed listening to music, reading ... ... ...

Give functionality to these 2 classes of individuals and they'd become better at those respective behaviours which their personal life experience would lead them into believing would carry (where they're subconsciously expecting) reward.

mildadhd
10-19-15, 12:13 AM
..Despite their many interesting differences, the sexes also share so much, even at the primary-process level.

We mentioned above that the brains of each sex contain residual sexual circuits typical of the opposite sex.

So vasopressin circuits are found in the brains of females in smaller abundance, and oxytocin circuits exists in male brains but in smaller abundance.

How might these circuits function?

We speculate that vasopressin systems in the female brain may help to energize some of the more aggressive aspects of maternal behavior (e.g., protecting the young from harm); conversely, oxytocin systems may sustain some of the gentler aspects of the male behavior (e.g.,the tendency of fathers to be non aggressive and supportive toward their offspring).

In any event, despite the many differences among species in the way they manage sexuality, it appears at the primary-process level as if all mammals share remarkably similar LUST circuits (Pfaus et al., 2003)


LUST AND THE SEEKING SYSTEM

It is important to recognize that, as with the pursuit of every other sort of reward, the SEEKING system is recruited in the task of finding sexual companions.

This means that, in addition to the sexual chemicals mentioned above, sexual desire and eagerness are promoted by dopamine-fueled SEEKING.

In human society, the dopamine-driven search for companionship is facilitated in myriad ways: matchmaking friends, singles bars, dating agencies, and the Internet, to name a few.

Indeed whether one is seeking intellectual or carnal knowledge via the Internet, it is the SEEKING system that drives the action.

As we emphasized in Chapter 3, this dopamine fueled engagement in affect-filled (euphoric) actions plays a part in the search for all environmental delights , including sex.

There is some evidence that this system may be some what more vigorous in males than in females , but this observation could be largely situation-specific--dictated more by specific rewards, survival duties and the ecological constraints in which animals find themselves.

For instance, when mother rats gather offspring that have dispersed from the nest, it is oxytocin stoking the SEEKING system that initiates much of the work.

Males are not especially eager to undertake such tasks, so as far as caring is concerned, the SEEKING system appears to be more responsive in females.

We know that the SEEKING system is sensitized--becomes hyper-responsive--to a variety of life challenges, including stress, hunger, and drugs of abuse.

When it is sensitized, animals are more eager to pursue all kings of rewards--food, sexual contact, and drug-induced thrills (Nocjar & Panksepp, 2002).

Thus, even though the SEEKING system seems slightly more active in males than females in many situations, the reverse is the case in others.

-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", P 258-259.



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Scaffoldtack
10-19-15, 12:14 AM
So dopamine does make you bad. And in order to calm a hyperdopaminergic person you must give them opiates( because dopamine has no external reward )only anticipation of reward. And opiates are responsible for "liking". Or an anti-psychotic that antagonizes guess what? (dopamine). So dopamine could be what motivates us, allows us to persevere, but with high amounts and low self-control could be responsible for bad actions?

SB_UK
10-19-15, 12:28 AM
That's interesting..
vasopressin connects intuitively to SYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM.
oxytocin connects intuittively to PARASYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM.

Male and Female archetypes of the autonomic nervous system characterizing male and female stereotypes of the human species.

-*-

Pattern appears to be - male archetype - extending knowledge
- female archetype - disseminating knowledge.

o -> o-> o->

o -> o-> o->o -> o-> o->
o -> o-> o->

o -> o-> o->

->-

o -> o-> o->
o+
o -> o-> o->
o+
o -> o-> o->

ie to support inconsistent threads into consistency - at any evolutionary level.

-*-

More simply - the male archetype tendency is to find something new, and the female archetype tendency is to test its utility.

eg (example) male archetype (could be female human being) hunts down some novel 'thing' - female archeytpe (could be male) tries to test through alternative preparations whether it can be eaten.

-*-

Human beings are characterized by having ideas.
The problem with ahving ideas is that they're very easy to come by.

What's important is that we weed out poor ideas.

This is best undertaken by testing whether the series of ideas which we have generated, whether the subset of consistent ideas can be extracted and the rest then discarded.

-*-

Alternative presentation - male archetype likes novelty (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24911320), female archetype likes 'taking it to the bank'.
eg
left brain - serial processor - male archetype
right brain - parallel processor - female archetype - which must stratify serial processors into consistency

It is true that novelty is of little use if novelety is forgotten about a few minutes later, as the drive to novelty takes over once again.

-*-

Roles of male and female archetype together in rearing children ?
From above - and playing to the strengths of male and female archetype.

Gathering the crowd together (female archetype) to do something fun (male archetype); to be fair you do need both.

True - the male archetype mind is wholly aimed at moving things post-haste onwards and upwards.

SB_UK
10-19-15, 12:46 AM
Pattern appears to be - male archetype - extending knowledge
- female archetype - disseminating knowledge.




cf academic institutions - generally teachers and researchers - where the teacher isn't well suited to research, the researcher doesn't like teaching.

Teacher - top down - simplifies (for explanation) - satisfaction from dissemination - female archetype
Researcher - bottom up - complicate (for novelty) - satisfaction from novelty - male archetype

However it's possible to fast switch between novelty and dissemination cf Peripheral and the role of the two systems within the Mind/Brain of male and female archeypes - albeit with predisposition to one as opposed to the other.

SB_UK
10-19-15, 12:53 AM
Indeed whether one is seeking intellectual or carnal knowledge via the Internet, it is the SEEKING system that drives the action.

Exactly ^^^


So - in the Shawshank Redemption -
there was a class of prisoner that would abuse other prisoners - and there was a class of prisoner that enjoyed listening to music, reading ... ... ...


What are you (the subsconscious you) looking for ?

The conscious you is usually the last to know, the first to delude.

SB_UK
10-19-15, 12:59 AM
Just out of interest ?
Why is teaching not of interest to researchers ?

Same reason why clinicians are driven into research.

female archetype vs male archetype

Teach vs academic research
Clinical workload vs academic research

Because it feels as though it reduces the individual's power if the individual can distribute their expertise (rendering the individual redundant) or worse still ... ... if the individual distributes their expertise only for others to react with bemusement.

Why have you wasted my time on trivia ?
A good teacher will be transcended by students (cf proper/intended parent child relationship ie to nurture not suppress)

- the trick is - is that with broad sense education / learning - the individual gets better and better intrinsically with practice ... ... only with factoids can an individual be dispersed

ie if you're becoming better you need not worry about being discarded.

The primitive reward system represents the individual fighting to suppress - the higher reward system sees the species as a team - and individual betterment, if the individual helps others to become better - ie a fundamental shift in outlook from competition to collaboration.

The tendency towards hdiing one's speciality from others - comes through the need to protect oneself from unemployment comes down to the need and attraction of the individual for money/power ... ... which represents a societally (and false) defined mandate.

SB_UK
10-19-15, 01:58 AM
So dopamine does make you bad. And in order to calm a hyperdopaminergic person you must give them opiates( because dopamine has no external reward )only anticipation of reward. And opiates are responsible for "liking". Or an anti-psychotic that antagonizes guess what? (dopamine). So dopamine could be what motivates us, allows us to persevere, but with high amounts and low self-control could be responsible for bad actions?

Dopamine associates with REWARD SEEKing.
Which REWARD one SEEKs is dependent on the 'shaped' nature of the individual ie their environmental (during mental development) exposure.

Self control loss eg in addiction.

REWARD SEEKing ie drug SEEKing vs enlightenment SEEKing.

A choice.

-*-

If you're asking would an individual given a great deal of motivation (meds) to pursue addiction - ie 'high capacity to persevere via stimulant + low self control' can result in bad consequences ie hasten the individual's own untimely demise - then I guess so.

Press your foot down on the accelerator of a car pointing towards the edge of the cliff and that's exactly what we'll see.

It's *all* in the choice to pursue vs transcend addiction where society drives us through competition against other people in the personal acquisition of academic certificates (education), power (climbing the ladder), and money (to be seen to be wealthy) ... ... ie society encourages human beings to develop addiction.

Everybody's so concerned about heroin and marijuana and all that,
Until they forget the most dangerousest narcotic that exist's,
And that's the narcotic that's injected into the minds of infants...
It's called social narcotics...

SB_UK
10-19-15, 02:23 AM
dopamine releaser I'm hyper social, sexual, and I become a snake in the grass!

So the question 'd be are these behaviours associated with dopamine and are they useful.

Hyper social - a social butterfly ? to gain ego from feeling as if one has friends ? to consider oneself an A lister ?

Hyper sexual - no obvious personal benefit

Snake in the grass - definitely no meaningful social benefit

So - a vacuous social existence, promiscuity and 'cheating' to get ahead are definitely associated with reward.

But 'good' reward ?

No - since these rewarding behaviours accelerate need ie to meet more people, have more sexual encounters and to beat more people.

It never ends.

SB_UK
10-19-15, 02:25 AM
The key part of this idea is that addiction (which people understand to be bad) far extends beyond heroin ... ... and is at the heart of how people (particularly the people most highly considered within society) embrace - in order to attain that status.

Everybody's so concerned about heroin and marijuana and all that,
Until they forget the most dangerousest narcotic that exist's,

Lunacie
10-19-15, 10:09 AM
So dopamine does make you bad. And in order to calm a hyperdopaminergic person you must give them opiates( because dopamine has no external reward )only anticipation of reward. And opiates are responsible for "liking". Or an anti-psychotic that antagonizes guess what? (dopamine). So dopamine could be what motivates us, allows us to persevere, but with high amounts and low self-control could be responsible for bad actions?

No, the amount of dopamine doesn't make you either bad or good. People with
ADHD have impulse control, their brain doesn't give them time to think about
the consequences before they say or do something that others might not do.

Stimulant meds promote better connections within the brain, allowing us that
moment to think about future consequences before we get ourselves into
trouble.

It sounds like you're saying the opposite happens, is that right? Maybe you
don't have ADHD after all.

Scaffoldtack
10-19-15, 05:22 PM
by sb-UK

ie if you're becoming better you need not worry about being discarded.

The primitive reward system represents the individual fighting to suppress - the higher reward system sees the species as a team - and individual betterment, if the individual helps others to become better - ie a fundamental shift in outlook from competition to collaboration.

The tendency towards hdiing one's speciality from others - comes through the need to protect oneself from unemployment comes down to the need and attraction of the individual for money/power ... ... which represents a societally (and false) defined mandate.. So the notion that in some people, the primitive reward system is prominent, at baseline and the higher reward system( executive function; self control) is lacking is false. The primitive reward system is mainly controlled by dopamine. So if dopamine is high these people will seek out food, sex, and "needs" without care or consequences. The stimulant meds just make these "people" smarter at doing it. So stimulants given to psychopaths, anti social personalities, and schizophrenics is not a good idea I'm assuming.

Lunacie
10-19-15, 07:53 PM
. So the notion that in some people, the primitive reward system is prominent, at baseline and the higher reward system( executive function; self control) is lacking is false. The primitive reward system is mainly controlled by dopamine. So if dopamine is high these people will seek out food, sex, and "needs" without care or consequences. The stimulant meds just make these "people" smarter at doing it. So stimulants given to psychopaths, anti social personalities, and schizophrenics is not a good idea I'm assuming.

SB's ideas are just his own personal hypothesis.

dvdnvwls
10-19-15, 08:46 PM
Saying that anything is "controlled by dopamine" is a mistake. Either it's such a bad oversimplification that it doesn't make any sense, or... it just doesn't make any sense to begin with.

mildadhd
10-19-15, 09:25 PM
low arousal--------"balance"--------high arousal (Paraphrasing SB_UK)

I wonder how runners high fits into this discussion?




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mildadhd
10-19-15, 09:40 PM
internal reward systems and external rewards



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mildadhd
10-19-15, 09:56 PM
What good are external rewards, without internal reward systems?



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aeon
10-19-15, 10:49 PM
I think your post is the first I've seen where the meds made someone
more sexual, they generally suppress desire and ability.

In my experience with Dexedrine (generic) it has:



almost eliminated my libido
greatly increased my libido
impaired my erectile response
produced pronounced erectile response
delayed orgasm

And I have heard similar from other guys...I think they can (and do) work both ways, even in the same individual.




Cheers,
Ian

SB_UK
10-20-15, 01:12 AM
. So the notion that in some people, the primitive reward system is prominent, at baseline and the higher reward system( executive function; self control) is lacking is false. The primitive reward system is mainly controlled by dopamine. So if dopamine is high these people will seek out food, sex, and "needs" without care or consequences. The stimulant meds just make these "people" smarter at doing it. So stimulants given to psychopaths, anti social personalities, and schizophrenics is not a good idea I'm assuming.

We can use our hands to hurt or our hands to make.
We live in a world in which our hands hurt.

But it wouldn't be correct to suggest that it's our hands are the problem.

It's the choices which we're made to make relating to their use.

Where reward can come from the wrong (gaining satisfaction from beating another person) as well as the right (beauty, elegance, efficiency, sustainability, scalability, elegance) 'things'.

The ADDer reward system - to transcend a life of grime.

SB_UK
10-20-15, 01:14 AM
Saying that anything is "controlled by dopamine" is a mistake. Either it's such a bad oversimplification that it doesn't make any sense, or... it just doesn't make any sense to begin with.

The hands rather than the mind.
Where the mind's defined by the way in which the mind develops, the psychosocial environment of the mind relative to other minds.

SB_UK
10-20-15, 01:18 AM
low arousal--------"balance"--------high arousal (Paraphrasing SB_UK)

I wonder how runners high fits into this discussion?

P

'In the zone' implies balance.
A place where one can continue operating indefinitely.
Mental calm.
Aerobic efficiency.

Once again connecting (since carbs are depleted after a short time) - aerobic metabolism of ketones with an ideal metabolic environment for the brain to be present within -
as supportive for the evolution/learning of the brain towards personal betterment.

-*-

With carb metabolism in alliance with the primitive reward system (cf growth) re:cancer, immune cell overgrowth - identify cells which're overcranked in disease
- and it's overcranking glycolysis (the Dark side) and not developing through ascetic chic
- the midichlorian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGbxmsDFVnE

-*-

Just growth vs respiration (<-the individual only get to breathe (live) when the individual's life cycle (growth cycle completed) completes conferring wisdom - at which point existence (freedom! from programmed (attachment) behaviours) is yours).

SB_UK
10-20-15, 01:27 AM
What good are external rewards, without internal reward systems?



P


Exactly - a complex layer needs to separate external with internal - in order to provide human beings with an internal environment which is made to care.

Human beings can't be made to feel reward from competition or beauty unless there's a mechanism for human beings to feel reward from these things.

And so - through the programmatic stages (Attachment) of growth to completing the growth cycle - there're very specific mechanisms at play.

Growth revolves around the dopaminergic and opioid systems proven connected with 'attachment' and the enjoyment of beauty (eg musicla chills) with the dopaminergic system too.

It would be wrong to paint dopamine as either good or bad - it's how you use it.

A fundamental choice in how one lives one's life.

To create or To destroy.

SB_UK
10-20-15, 01:36 AM
In my experience with Dexedrine (generic) it has:



almost eliminated my libido
greatly increased my libido
impaired my erectile response
produced pronounced erectile response
delayed orgasm

And I have heard similar from other guys...I think they can (and do) work both ways, even in the same individual.




Cheers,
Ian

Interesting relationship between the primitive and higher reward system and sexuality.

Broadly - procreation is going to fall into part of the developmental cycle of man - ie male - female attachment, female - child attachment

- after that - it just gets in the way.

Biologically - men and women age and pass through the capacity to have children - it would be evolutionarily foolish to retain an empty drive.

We see this in the average overly wealthy person - attempting to cling onto physical beauty for reasons of attacting another - when the intended purpose it (At the appropriate age) to attract and then to subtract ... ... or perhaps better to extend attract from one to all.
Why care about just one individual's wellbeing ? - that would seem divisive in a societally defeating way.

So - attachment (the manner that people attach to a label, or to a religion or to a nation etc) - all attachments which supply reward (to cheer one's nation on at some pointless sporting event) - and serve - in the battle between evil (divisive propensity) and good (unification) - to drive the individual into yet further polarization {evil, the dark side, unhappiness}.

'To set them free'

Attachment isn't compatible with rationality; with freedom from attachment and simultaneous acquisition of wisdom - one arrives at a state in which one can actually do what's best for another.

Attachment muddies the mind.

Freedom from attachment sets the mind free.
The mind being set free confers the experiential perspective on man - of freedom.

The elusive definition of freedom - which human beings have long sought - but not known how to achieve.

SB_UK
10-20-15, 01:47 AM
Novelty seeking
'taking it to the bank'

hunter o-> novelty seeking
gatherer o+ 'taking it to the bank'

So - underlying the evolution (representing ToE) - we find a male and a female archetype which represent capacity to build a novel informational structure.

Male and female archetype relate in male and female are eversions of one another (cf standing wave) - and evoluton occurs (birth) through the subsequent (female archetype) formed through balance between the two.

Underlying male archetype drive - to find female.
Underlying female archetype drive - to balance with male ('put a ring on it') and drive continued evolutionary progress.

What is the current stage of evolutionary progress ?
To imagine 'quality' as a canvas - and to make it exponentially more intricate - and for that intricacy to be driven, enjoyed by people.

To generate life-affirming beauty.

Back to the garden.

Why is beauty life-affirming ?
Because it ties into neural development / reward - driving us to feel good.

SB_UK
10-20-15, 01:55 AM
So stimulants given to ... schizophrenics is not a good idea I'm assuming.

Interesting idea.

That if dopamine can further dopamine associated behaviours - that the core of schizophrenia (getting into the head of another) is dopamine-mediated.

That communication at a deep level is dopamine-mediated.

That enforcedly social structure formation through reaching deep understanding and communication without subterfuge has been nestled within the human mind - awaiting exposure ? enlightenment ?

Would we expect some form of species synchronization prior to species operating on a collective creative program -
I guess so.

The ant cannot dissent.

Better to suggest that the ant shouldn't want to dissent.

To desire what is in your best disinterest isn't very intelligent, really - would not be very intellignet at all.

SB_UK
10-20-15, 02:08 AM
Schizophrenia - latent inhibition (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/200903/schizophrenic-thought-madness-or-potential-genius)

cf sensory hypersensitivity in ADDers.

Both relate to informational hypersensitivity.

autism - ADDer - schizophrenia <- mental health spectrum

Autism - hyperfunctional microcircuits (Markram) - also informational hypersensitivity.

SB_UK
10-20-15, 02:12 AM
So - what're we looking at in man ?

The capacity to field internal models which are hyper-sensitive / hyper-reactive to information.
Multiple levels - at the level of systematizing, empathizing and sensory 'qualitites'.

To be uniquely human; to be the best that one can be; to be unique, to support diversity in the quality canvas representing human recognition capacity.

To be the best that one can be - would be to develop quality on these 3 fundamental levels.

And instead what do human beings do ?

Human beings roll around in the mud on the ground.

SB_UK
10-20-15, 02:21 AM
Summarizing
Human beings are developing into creatures of 'quality' (three levels) - representing increasing complexity in the
sensory - cerebellar - motor cortical loop formation.

Internal quality (relating to reward as the mechanism by which the nervous system congratulates us for shaping it in a manner which is increasingly capable of recognizing quality)

-> relating to external quality.

Lunacie
10-20-15, 11:56 AM
In my experience with Dexedrine (generic) it has:



almost eliminated my libido
greatly increased my libido
impaired my erectile response
produced pronounced erectile response
delayed orgasm

And I have heard similar from other guys...I think they can (and do) work both ways, even in the same individual.


Cheers,
Ian

Well, I guess I've only seen posts where guys complain about loss of libido,
because why would they complain about an increase?

Scaffoldtack
10-20-15, 07:42 PM
(Schizophrenia and drug induced psychosis) Both are caused by too much "dopamine". The only effective treatment is "dopamine" blockers or receptor antagonists; they are the only effective treatment in many studies.

dvdnvwls
10-21-15, 12:41 AM
Scaffoldtack: If you aren't going to show real evidence then don't make ridiculous claims.

SB_UK
10-21-15, 01:55 AM
(Schizophrenia and drug induced psychosis) Both are caused by too much "dopamine". The only effective treatment is "dopamine" blockers or receptor antagonists; they are the only effective treatment in many studies.

Certainly my experience has been using stimulant meds to overcome the need for stimulant meds.
However that leaves us needing to define what a reward system which isn't activated by increasing dopamine would be.
General pattern - basal minimum - balance between dopamine and opioid systems (the agents of attachment) - ie a basal balance which is fixed - either direction ie reduction or increase through dopamine antagonism or agonism resulting in problems.

In ADDers paradoxical effect (relaxation) of chronically stressed state - use of novel capactiy to attend to build mind (ie understand) - generation of mind (the purpose of dopamine to man with mind) - acceptance of context - no longer under a constant and chronic state of stress from having a mind which believes that it does not belong

- arrival home - equating to basal balance upon wisdom of DA and OP nt systems.

Works.

So - yes - tendency to disequilibrium (addiction) vs tendency to balance (escaping the need for DA/OP agonism).

DA/OP agonism - mechanism of pushing human beings through the growth stage ie stimulant and narcotic in eg mother's milk (glutamine, caseomorphin) - and stimulant/narcotic driven in all human attachments ie mother - child, bonding couple ... ...

- formation of a mind relates not to loss of attachment to anybody - but extension of attachment to all people.

ie to acquire a reward system in which another's happiness is mirrored in one's own happiness.

Essential in this idea is mind, though, since one must not mstake happiness from becoming better - with 'happiness' from drip feeding addictions into the blood stream.

The classical battle between 'quality' and quantity (of drug exposure to feel).

Quantity desensitizes ie 'numbs' as the fundamental reule of physiology (hormone/neurotransmitter).

-*-

It's a bit like the body having a mechanism of defining the shortest most efficient route between 2 places as its mechansim for road (structure) formation - a fundamental aspect of phenomenological reality.

We're required from Big Bang upwards to instantiate a structure which at each level is efficient and stable - for further levels to develop upon.

Clear indication - that mind construction needs to be fixed - and upon which a collaborative species will assist all individuals to aspire towards individual creativity towards generating as energising (beautiful, elegant) a world as possible within which to live.

The wonder, in, shifting from imagination to reality.

The dreariness of life now - pushed aside by -

imagine if instead of warring corporations consisting of unhappy wage slaves - there was just 1 team in which individuals worked together because they chose to - and in which all people wishing to join - were welcomed ... ...

you'd have the best, fastest of everything - generated at the fastest rate imaginable.

My concern - that the problems of Western style living - diseases - would be eliminated through living a life which matches the uman drive towards persona, intrinsic quality.

Neuroprotectiv mode - deactivating the bad boys of Insulin/IGF-1 - pretty much universally accepted as driving disease if overutilised.

-*-

So - species level enlightenment - for human beings to be defined by a structure of mind (each individually) which is compatible with one another - inadvertently - species level social structure formation.
To understand individual understanding as a wave-form in the radio wave cavity (Schumann resonance carrier wave) between planetary electrical and atmospheric magnetosphere/ionosphere ie a series of individual waves - forming - with mind - into a waveform which constructively interferes ie is compatibel - elimination of cognitive dissonance - with the prime node at 7/8 Hz of the Schumann resonance - representing the theta/alpha EEG transition - which we credit with creativity (tying into the species mind).
Also to mention that a weakening magnetic field (heavily documented) would drive convergence as the other nodes of the Schumann resonance would sink back into noise ie the primary, strongest node would dominate.

Schumann resonance (http://www.lessemf.com/images/schumann.gif).
Planetary magnetic field collapse (preceding geomagnetic pole shift <- basis to climate change).
(http://www.livescience.com/46694-magnetic-field-weakens.html)
-*-

So - we've a pattern of evolution/creation which operates to a pattern.
Increasing informational entropy.

Even though it's scripted - it's our own evolution which is scripted - and so since we cannot encapsulate that which is specifically - exponentially - beyond our current frame of mind - we can balance the initial ambiguous feelings about scripted - with unimaginably better.

Scripted unimaginably better - a guarantee that the game that we're currently playing - when completed - *will* and guaranteed - synchronize perfectly with the release of an exponentially better game to play - when re-phrased like that - it just doesn't seem so bad.

namazu
10-21-15, 03:06 AM
Scaffoldtack, I can't address everything you've written here, but I want to comment on a few things.

First, you describe schizophrenia as being "caused by too much dopamine".

You're correct that there are links between schizophrenia and dopamine levels -- but there's more to it than just that. You might find the Wikipedia page on the dopamine hypothesis of schizophrenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_hypothesis_of_schizophrenia) to be interesting. Even the dopamine-related hypotheses are more complex than just "too much dopamine, period", and there are other neurotransmitters that seem to play important roles as well (such as glutamate), along with possible structural differences and other factors that can't be boiled down to "too much dopamine".


You asked earlier if dopamine is what makes people "good" or "bad".

Too much of anything is usually a problem. If a person has too much dopamine floating around in various parts of the brain, it does tend to affect behavior and cognition. But I would caution against saying an excess of dopamine turns "good" people into "bad" people. It's not that simple, and it might also be safer to leave the moral labels out of the discussion altogether.

You also mentioned your own experience with stimulants and how you seemed to become hypersexual and hypersocial, and lose inhibitions.

This sounds similar to a phenomenon often seen in mania or hypomania, which can be drug-induced or a feature of bipolar disorder (or both). At low levels, such behavior shades into "normal", but if it's pronounced enough to interfere with your life, and/or cycles with depression, then it may be diagnosed as bipolar disorder. Both stimulants (which act on dopamine pathways) *and* SSRIs (which act on serotonin pathways), and possibly other medications as well, can trigger mania in susceptible people. We can't (yet) predict who's susceptible to medication-induced mania based on prior personality, though a personal or family history of bipolar disorder (which isn't itself a "personality") can sometimes be a clue.

Bipolar disorder, like schizophrenia, also sometimes causes psychosis. The nature of the delusions and hallucinations tend to be somewhat different (not always) from those in schizophrenia. For example, delusions of grandeur are more common in manic psychosis, while paranoia is more common in schizophrenia, but it varies a lot from person to person and there are no hard-and-fast rules. There's also something called schizoaffective disorder, which involves symptoms of both mood disorder and schizophrenia. Dopamine probably plays an important role in all three, but what that role is, exactly, and how other neurotransmitters and other factors interact with it is a really difficult question to answer.

I would also like to point out -- because it's relevant to the links you've tried to draw between high levels of dopamine and what you called "bad behavior" (mostly outwardly-expressed "excesses" of action or drive) and schizophrenia -- that in addition to the positive symptoms of schizophrenia (the delusions and hallucinations), a major contributor to the disability caused by schizophrenia is the set of so-called "negative symptoms".

Negative symptoms often involve just the opposite of what you might expect based on your characterization of high dopamine levels: withdrawal from social life, "flattened affect" (expressing a reduced, rather than increased, range of emotion), difficulties with executive function that actually share some similarities with ADHD (despite differences in the hypothesized roles of dopamine in the two disorders), and other cognitive problems that tend to lead more to a kind of functional paralysis than to unrestrained actions. These "negative symptoms" appear to be part of schizophrenia itself, and not solely a response to antipsychotics; however, antipsychotics have historically worked better against the positive symptoms of schizophrenia than the negative symptoms.

There are some studies ongoing, following people with a strong family history of psychosis, to see if there are factors (genetic,social, neurological, etc.) that can predict who will develop psychosis. I haven't followed these studies closely, but it would be really interesting to know how dopamine levels differ -- not only between people who develop psychosis and people who don't -- but also within individuals, both over time and in different parts of the brain -- which could help us understand the complex roles that dopamine plays in schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, and what other factors are important. That might then lead to better treatments -- more effective, and with fewer side effects.

In sum: Dopamine's important, for sure, and it is involved in various ways in things like pleasure-seeking and reward and psychosis and ADHD. But trying to reduce its role to equations like "good person + excess dopamine = bad person" neglects both the complexity of the biology and also the fact that there are actual people out there (and here on this forum) who deal with psychosis and the unfortunate stereotypes that tag along with it. (Some very good people among them, in my personal opinion!)

It's interesting to me (and, I assume, to you!) to think about the different roles dopamine may play in different behavioral and cognitive and emotional processes, and how this varies in the population as a result of both underlying human diversity and drug-induced changes. But I think a good motto in this type of situation is "The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know!"

Scaffoldtack
10-21-15, 05:37 AM
By dvdnvwlsScaffoldtack: If you aren't going to show real evidence then don't make ridiculous claims..


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20643630/

There is many more studies of you need them. From working in the criminal justice system for 5 years, I can tell you antipsychotics are frequently given to violent/suicidal individuals to treat their behavior. And it works. I have seen first hand what some individuals do without the medication. Withdrawal from it causes increased sensitization to dopamine.

SB_UK
10-21-15, 06:07 AM
Too much of anything is usually a problem.

Yes.

Dominant pattern - to escape fluctuations and to 'resolve' into a balanced state.

We see this in the disordered bipolar through cyclothymia into normality - it's an amplitude of variation reduction into normality.

I would love to place variation at normality onto an environmental variable eg diurnal, lunar variation ie settling into a natural pattern of variation as the evolutionary (t dimension) motif.


when compared to bipolar I disorder, type II presents more frequent depressive episodes and shorter intervals of well-being.We've frequency and amplitude - which lend themselves to understanding as wave.

You can imagine a chaotically fluctuating wave or skipping rope reducing in its variation down to a tight vibration - that pretty much sums up what evolution is trying to do - brought back - as we may to the simple standing wave.

General pattern decreasing amplitude and increasing frequency (cf cyclothymia) of swings - resulting in novel emergence to completed emergence in a waveform.

The simple, basal balanced state representing the baseline upon which subsequent 'complexity' can be built into the waveform.

There's something very attractive in viewing evolutionary structures through the lens of the standing wave - it feels like the simplest model for basing an understanding of reality on - and standign wave is a composite of male and female archetype - 2 complementary waves which sum to net zero.

-*-

Note dopamine production - as increase in fluctuation or decrease in fluctuation ie primitive and higher reward systems - one addictive - the other transcending the 'need for speed'.

Lunacie
10-21-15, 11:28 AM
nevermind

mildadhd
10-21-15, 09:58 PM
If a type one diabetic has to much insulin, the person will eventually go to sleep.

If a type one diabetic has to less insulin, the person will eventually go to sleep.

Two different types of sleep?


If a person who has ADHD and benefits from medication has to much methyphenidate, the person will _______?________.

If a person who has ADHD and benefits from medication, has to less methyphenidate, the person will _______?________.

Two different types of unmotivation? (Not sure)


Superduperlayhuman




P

SB_UK
10-22-15, 07:02 AM
If a type one diabetic has to much insulin, the person will eventually go to sleep.

If a type one diabetic has to less insulin, the person will eventually go to sleep.

Two different types of sleep?


If a person who has ADHD and benefits from medication has to much methyphenidate, the person will _______?________.

If a person who has ADHD and benefits from medication, has to less methyphenidate, the person will _______?________.

Two different types of unmotivation? (Not sure)


Superduperlayhuman




P

So the trick 'd be to ensure that any task being performed is motivational in and of itself to the individual.

That's quite tricky to roll out.

I'd prefer a distress-less environment in which people can choose their path.

Perhaps merely forcing an individual to take a path which they'd ordinarily choose to take is sufficient to shift 2 identical paths from distressful into eustressful.

Mustn't force.

Back to 'rat park' where poor behaviours (drug taking) were simply conditional on stress/co-ercion.

aeon
10-22-15, 10:10 AM
If a type one diabetic has to much insulin, the person will eventually go to sleep.

If a type one diabetic has to less insulin, the person will eventually go to sleep.

Two different types of sleep?

Absolutely...and that’s a liberal use of the term “sleep.” One is their brain shutting off because it has no glucose for fuel.

If they are down and out, they’ve gone comatose.


Cheers,
Ian

mildadhd
10-22-15, 08:21 PM
Absolutely...and that’s a liberal use of the term “sleep.” One is their brain shutting off because it has no glucose for fuel.

If they are down and out, they’ve gone comatose.


Cheers,
Ian

Thanks.

My father is type one diabetic.

He gets sleepy when his blood sugar is to low. (Not enough fuel/blood sugar like you pointed out.)

He gets sleepy when his blood sugar is to high. (To much fuel/blood sugar)

It is fascinating to me that he gets sleepy both ways, but side effects are not the same both ways.

Example, he would seizure and pass away much more quickly with not enough sugar, than if he had to much sugar.

But to high blood sugar creates different problems, (negatively effecting circulation, eyesight, etc, eventually coma like you you pointed out, then eventually pass away)

Point being low blood sugar and high blood sugar do not have the exact opposite neurophysiological side effects on the body, although they both have side effects.



P

mildadhd
10-22-15, 10:16 PM
My father told me he tries to keep his blood sugar levels slightly less than balanced to avoid side effects of high blood sugar levels.

(Also paraphrasing SB_UK)



P

mildadhd
10-22-15, 10:30 PM
Both, to less blood sugar levels, and, to much blood sugar levels, result in loss of consciousness?

Pass On-----------Sleepy------------Awake-----------Sleepy---------------------------------------------------Pass On



P

mildadhd
10-22-15, 11:10 PM
I love this thread, there is so much to consider and figure out about dopamine.


The prevalence of obesity has markedly increased over the past few decades.

Exploration of how hunger and satiety signals influence the reward system can help us understand non-homeostatic feeding.

Insulin may act in the ventral tegmental area (VTA), a critical site for reward-seeking behavior, to suppress feeding.

However, the neural mechanisms underlying insulin effects in the VTA remain unknown.

We demonstrate that insulin, a circulating catabolic peptide that inhibits feeding, can induce long-term depression (LTD) of mouse excitatory synapses onto VTA dopamine neurons.

This effect requires endocannabinoid-mediated presynaptic inhibition of glutamate release.

Furthermore, after a sweetened high-fat meal, which elevates endogenous insulin, insulin-induced LTD is occluded.

Finally, insulin in the VTA reduces food anticipatory behavior in mice and conditioned place preference for food in rats.

Taken together, these results suggest that insulin in the VTA suppresses excitatory synaptic transmission and reduces anticipatory activity and preference for food-related cues.



http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v16/n3/full/nn.3321.html

mildadhd
10-22-15, 11:41 PM
Absolutely...and that’s a liberal use of the term “sleep.” One is their brain shutting off because it has no glucose for fuel.

If they are down and out, they’ve gone comatose.


Cheers,
Ian

I wonder the difference between, low blood sugar coma and high blood sugar coma?


P

mildadhd
10-23-15, 12:45 AM
Cognitive consciousness and Affective consciousness? (Unsure?)

..The first is the cerebral cortex—the gray matter that forms the outer layer of the brain.

The other is a structure located in the brainstem, called reticular activating system (RAS).[4][5]

Injury to either or both of these components is sufficient to cause a patient to experience a coma..


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coma


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SB_UK
10-23-15, 01:41 AM
Glucose either too low or too high will alter osmotic water flow in the body increasing or decreasing compartment ionic concentrations - which is intrinsically distressful with eg mitochondrial functioning being critically dependent on ionic concentrations dermining potential differences driving ionic flow via the various different form of ion channels - which're considered one of the major classes of target by pharmaceutical company.

A common simplified formula for serum osmolality is: Calculated osmolality = 2 x serum sodium + serum glucose + serum urea (all in mmol/L).[/URL] (http://www.rnceus.com/renal/renalosmo.html#Link545769Context)
s (http://www.rnceus.com/renal/renalosmo.html)

Relationship between glucocorticoid and mineralocorticoid - distress.

High levels of GC bleed inti MC activity altering [URL="http://www.rnceus.com/renal/renalosmo.html#Link545769Context"] plasma osmolality.

In high doses, hydrocortisone (cortisol) and those glucocorticoids with appreciable mineralocorticoid potency can exert a mineralocorticoid effect as well


-*-

So... ...
+/- glucose, coma -> dehydration.

SB_UK
10-23-15, 02:01 AM
distress - high salt, sugar, protein foods
duistress - glucocorticoid + mineralocorticoid activity

Alter the body's battery functionality body breaks.

Drink more water doesn't work.

-*-

Insulin operation - osmoregulation.

These results indicate that acute insulin depletion increases vasopressin secretion by sensitizing the osmoreceptor to stimulation by hyperglycemia.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3551628

-*-

ketosis

One of the main mechanisms behind low-carb diets is a reduction in insulin (http://www.dietdoctor.com/yes-a-low-carb-diet-greatly-lowers-your-insulin) levels (3 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20107198), 4 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16403234)).But another thing that insulin does is to tell the kidneys to hold on to sodium (5).s (http://authoritynutrition.com/5-most-common-low-carb-mistakes/)

-*-

insulin (classical anabolic)
vs
vasopressin

vasopressin (oxytocin) - attachment
Stage 3: Attachment
Attachment is the bond that keeps couples together long enough for them to have and raise children. Scientists think there might be two major hormones involved in this feeling of attachment; oxytocin and vasopressin.
s (http://www.youramazingbrain.org/lovesex/sciencelove.htm)

-*-

Salt-loading increases vasopressinhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11884209

-*-

ketosis -> zero carb, low protein, high fat

plasma osmolality drops
->-
increase salt uptake

What happens if not ?
Extreme cramp

-*-

This increased sodium dumping tends to pull potassium along with it.
s (http://www.livestrong.com/article/223488-what-are-the-causes-of-low-magnesium-potassium/)
But another thing that insulin does is to tell the kidneys to hold on to sodium (5).-*-

Summarising
Ketosis diet + absence in distress.
Salt intake elevates to maintain electrophysiology.

bouillon cubes - avoid any form of MSG hydrolysed protein pain -> neuropathic excitotoxins cf T2D - insulin/IGF-1 - elevated carbs + protein -> overgrowth.

Need insulin/IGF1, leptin/glucocorticoid hormonal sensitivities.

Basic rule of medicine - hormonal/neurotransmiter systems are rendered sensitive by hitting ... ...

slightly less than balanced

SB_UK
10-23-15, 02:05 AM
Important point ^^^

Relationship between insulin (primitive reward systme) and vasopressin (higher reward system -> love).
Stress dumping salt.
Relationship betwen vasopressin and attachment.
Not to consider insulin, IGF-1, leptin and glucocorticoid as bad - but absolutely required - with sensitivity.

Increased production - decreased sensitivity.

-*-

We can alter diet, we can alter water intake - but in the absence of distress alleviation there'll be a persisitent problme - particularly in the sensitive
- with electrophysiological imbalance.

And evolution drives increasing sensitivity ie to become 'sensorily' more elegant ...... with practice.

-*-

Human beings are meant to prevent distress not learn how to handle it with sweet/fatty foods (anabolic - primitive reward system).

The self-imposed regime of self-destruction is meant (the individual courting their own premature demise) to operate to help the individual work out why ???? they're defining themselves with a reward system which destroys their very selves.

That's not logical - for a short lifespan to be reduced by an individual's choices is ridiculous.
The only logical course of action is to live a life in which death is preceded by as little pain and as much fun (to make the world better) as possible.

Once logical (moral) - the prevailing distressful environment and need for distress relief is lost.

And people can have meaningful lives instead of lives filling out legally required paperwork marked 'for shredding'.

-*-

Since the mind is defined as (when it's constructed) a protocol for morality - the mind will always be distressed in a world in which immoral schemes force people to behave immorally.

Money and Legal systems must be eliminated. - ie force and more force - lead - as we see in oppositional defiant disorder in the youngest of children into all of the wrong behaviours.

Law and money drive a planetary human society characterized by oppositional defiant disorder.

With people seeking to gain revenge on others using the useless lawyer and legal system to lose.

All based on the false premise that gaining money from another is winning.
Losing the love/desire of money is winning.

-*-

All problems resolved - if morality becomes the default course of action.

SB_UK
10-23-15, 02:38 AM
Inteneded human life cycle

food (protein/carbs) -> reward <- growth phase *
->
attachment -> reward <- completion of growth - enforcedly (through reward) social

Problem - growth reward mechanism - can be co-opted through addictive pursuits - preventing completion - preventing an individual transcending the primitive/growth reward paradigm - relating to the growth of a

mind

- wisdom -> the culmination of growth.

-*-

Standard misrepresentation of man - that human beings are bad/evil.

No - just incomplete.

An inevitable part of the evolutionary process - you can't evolve species without a period of 'learning' in any new evolutionary / emergent property gained.

see mind.

The human mind has not been used properly - as is evident from how people treat one another.

The human mind should be a basis for species cohesion and species fun - and instead all (predictably) - that human beings in the absence of mind do - is use it to make complex systems for bolstering the individual's own ego.

ie to characterize an individual as special for material concerns - and not to characterize an individual as special through (our intended reward system) as intrinsically special/of intrinsic higher quality.

Grasping more (material world) makes one less (quality).

mildadhd
10-23-15, 10:19 PM
= Addiction

"Why the pain?" (Paraphrasing Dr Mate)









Homeostatic pain
Emotional pain
Sensory pain
Dopamine


P

Abi
10-23-15, 11:10 PM
Thread closed for staff review.

Abi
10-24-15, 01:28 PM
Thread re-opened.

mildadhd
10-24-15, 01:45 PM
I need to learn more about the PLAY system and dopamine.


P