View Full Version : Why do people post about their feelings, but are not..


mildadhd
10-24-15, 01:08 PM
Why do people post about their feelings, but are not interested in learning about the biology of their feelings?





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midnightstar
10-24-15, 02:16 PM
Sometimes people just need to vent in order to "let go" of bad feelings :grouphug:

mildadhd
10-24-15, 02:30 PM
Sometimes people just need to vent in order to "let go" of bad feelings :grouphug:

Thanks

I can feel how people don't want to learn about the biology of their bad feelings.

But what about some people learning about the biology of their good feelings?



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Abi
10-24-15, 02:32 PM
Some of us may not want to learn because we already know, more or less, from the most recent and accepted scientific research on the topic.

mildadhd
10-24-15, 02:41 PM
Some of us may not want to learn because we already know, more or less, from the most recent and accepted scientific research on the topic.

Neat.

I am interested in brain research, if you don't mind me asking, what research do you prefer?




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Socaljaxs
10-24-15, 02:45 PM
Why do people post about their feelings, but are not interested in learning about the biology of their feelings?

Cause feelings and emotions aren't always logical or rational... So, it may be difficult for a person to rationalize or even think logically when in the mist of heighten emotion whether is be a positive or negative emotion

Plus, for some if you try to break down the why/ how's of a person and their feelings especially, said person is in a state of a majorly good or bad emotional time It can for some, make that person feel like it dismisses and lessens and undermines a persons need to be validated for such feelings.

People sometimes just need to vent. They don't want a solution to the problem they just want to be validated that they are correct in how they feel. some people also need to release the emotions that are clouding them and their judgment.

Like I said emotions are not always logical or rational. And most people are more/less sensitive to certain things/behaviors and actions or other people than others.

Yes, it's hormones and chemicals in your body.. But, really is someone for example, that is upset over something either minor or major and maybe even sounding irrational to others really going to once you explain the chemical and the science behind feelings.. Turn around and be like "OMG that's why, it's chemical and hormones and all the other scientific explainations to why I'm feeling this way... All better!" Nope, they will still be upset or overly happy even knowing why our bodies do what we do.

For myself I think if it's also more than just physical biology for how emotional s person is or isn't... nature verses nurture and the combo of it are also reasons for how emotional a person is.. Like some people are very sensitive and others are not. This applies to both men and women equally. Yes nurture plays a part in how a person responds and are effected by things, but nature is playing just as big of a part in my eyes.

Lunacie
10-24-15, 03:42 PM
Why do people post about their feelings, but are not interested in learning about the biology of their feelings?





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Are you sure you meant to say biology? Most of your posts seem to be about
affective neuroscience.

namazu
10-24-15, 04:05 PM
Why do people post about their feelings, but are not interested in learning about the biology of their feelings?
Have you ever enjoyed a rainbow?
Did you immediately study optical physics to understand light scattering?


Have you ever enjoyed a piece of music?
Did you immediately study musical theory, music history, etc.?


There are a lot of things that people experience, and that move them (in good ways or bad ways), but that they don't necessarily always feel compelled to dissect on an analytical level.

Plus, with emotions, I think Socaljaxs has it right that the nature of feelings, and the kinds of moods we're in when we're feeling strong feelings, sometimes make it even less likely that we have the interest or ability to look at them from a strictly scientific perspective.

Abi
10-24-15, 04:52 PM
Neat.

I am interested in brain research, if you don't mind me asking, what research do you prefer?




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Neurochemistry, Genetics, and Experimental Psychology

mildadhd
10-24-15, 04:58 PM
biology is a natural science concerned with the study of life and living organisms, including their structure, function, growth, evolution, distribution, and taxonomy.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/biology


---------


cross-species affective neuroscience studies confirm that primary-process emotional feelings are organized within primitive subcortical regions of the brain that are anatomically, neurochemically, and functionally homologous in all mammals that have been studied.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc3181986/


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Abi
10-24-15, 05:02 PM
I suck at the more macro-aspects of life sciences

(Anatomy & Physiology stuff.)

It kinda bores me.

I'm of course not discounting its importance, just answering your question.

mildadhd
10-24-15, 05:03 PM
Neurochemistry, Genetics, and Experimental Psychology


High Five




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mildadhd
10-24-15, 05:09 PM
Are you sure you meant to say biology? Most of your posts seem to be about
affective neuroscience.

Lunacie

Are you familiar with the term homology?


In the context of biology, homology is the existence of shared ancestry between a pair of structures, or genes, in different species.[1]

A common example of homologous structures in evolutionary biology are the wings of bats and the arms of primates.[1]

Evolutionary theory explains the existence of homologous structures adapted to different purposes as the result of descent with modification from a common ancestor.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homology_(biology)

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mildadhd
10-24-15, 05:25 PM
Have you ever enjoyed a rainbow?
Did you immediately study optical physics to understand light scattering?


Have you ever enjoyed a piece of music?
Did you immediately study musical theory, music history, etc.?


There are a lot of things that people experience, and that move them (in good ways or bad ways), but that they don't necessarily always feel compelled to dissect on an analytical level.

Plus, with emotions, I think Socaljaxs has it right that the nature of feelings, and the kinds of moods we're in when we're feeling strong feelings, sometimes make it even less likely that we have the interest or ability to look at them from a strictly scientific perspective.

I can understand that not everyone would be interested.

But i can't understand how everyone would not be interested?

It seems like a crime that a balance of people would not be interested, from origins and preventions and treatments perspectives.





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namazu
10-24-15, 05:28 PM
But i can't understand how everyone would not be interested?
I think some people are interested.

Just maybe not all the time, or not in the same way you are, or don't have the attention span to connect the dots between the videos or the terminology and the topics, or want to learn/discuss in other ways.

Lunacie
10-24-15, 05:59 PM
Lunacie

Are you familiar with the term homology?




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homology_(biology)

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No I'm not.

mildadhd
10-24-15, 08:50 PM
I think some people are interested.

Just maybe not all the time, or not in the same way you are, or don't have the attention span to connect the dots between the videos or the terminology and the topics, or want to learn/discuss in other ways.

Who?

I don't remember anyone except SB_UK actually acknowledging the actual biology of the primary emotional feeling systems.


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namazu
10-24-15, 08:59 PM
I think you're forgetting some of our conversations, then. I am somewhat interested. I've participated in some of your threads and asked questions, and sometimes we discussed stuff, and sometimes we didn't, or we tried, but we seemed to be talking about different things.

However, I often learn scientific concepts better in other ways than from a forum discussion.

And of course, I'm also interested in a lot of other things, too. Alas, there are only so many hours in a day!

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

mildadhd
10-24-15, 09:06 PM
I think you're forgetting some of our conversations, then. I am somewhat interested. I've participated in some of your threads and asked questions, and sometimes we discussed stuff, and sometimes we didn't.

However, I often learn scientific concepts better in other ways than from a forum discussion.

Of course, I'm also interested in a lot of other things, too. Alas, there are only so many hours in a day.

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I don't remember you ever acknowledging the homologous 7 primary unconditioned emotional response systems?

Forgive me if I am wrong, people only seem to want to discuss what they are not interested.



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namazu
10-24-15, 09:09 PM
I've asked questions about them, and sometimes you answered them in a way that I understood, and sometimes you didn't.

EDIT: In case you don't remember or in case you don't believe me, here are a few examples:
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1635806&highlight=unconditioned#post1635806
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1743579&highlight=unconditioned#post1743579
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1736745&highlight=primary+emotional#post1736745
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1735341&highlight=primary+emotional#post1735341
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1732459&highlight=primary+emotional#post1732459
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1744872&highlight=primary+emotional#post1744872

I don't know if that counts as "acknowledging" them or not...

If someone uses different terminology than the terminology you use, or they don't accept something as a given, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are not interested in having an honest discussion about it.

Lunacie
10-24-15, 10:02 PM
I think you're forgetting some of our conversations, then. I am somewhat interested. I've participated in some of your threads and asked questions, and sometimes we discussed stuff, and sometimes we didn't, or we tried, but we seemed to be talking about different things.

However, I often learn scientific concepts better in other ways than from a forum discussion.

And of course, I'm also interested in a lot of other things, too. Alas, there are only so many hours in a day!

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Yes, I've tried too. I've asked questions, but felt like we were talking different
languages or something. I think that's how I felt in freshman algebra too.

namazu
10-24-15, 10:08 PM
Yes, I've tried too. I've asked questions, but felt like we were talking different
languages or something. I think that's how I felt in freshman algebra too.

Yeah, when I went back to find those old threads, I saw you'd asked some questions and tried to participate, too. Other members had, as well.

See, Peripheral? People are interested.

mildadhd
10-24-15, 10:08 PM
I've asked questions about them, and sometimes you answered them in a way that I understood, and sometimes you didn't.

EDIT: In case you don't remember or in case you don't believe me, here are a few examples:
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1635806&highlight=unconditioned#post1635806
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1743579&highlight=unconditioned#post1743579
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1736745&highlight=primary+emotional#post1736745
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1735341&highlight=primary+emotional#post1735341
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1732459&highlight=primary+emotional#post1732459
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1744872&highlight=primary+emotional#post1744872

I don't know if that counts as "acknowledging" them or not...

If someone uses different terminology than the terminology you use, or they don't accept something as a given, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are not interested in having an honest discussion about it.

Capitalizing of primary emotional response systems is mandatory to identifying the differences between homologous emotional response systems, and, diverse emotional experiences.

Capitalization is so important to understanding the difference, if only people tried.

There is only 7 unconditioned emotional-affective response system to capitalize.


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namazu
10-24-15, 10:17 PM
Capitalizing of primary emotional response systems is mandatory to identifying the differences between homologous emotional response systems, and, diverse emotional experiences.
I tried capitalizing sometimes, and it did not seem to help.

I disagree that it's "mandatory to identifying the differences", though I agree that it could be helpful for keeping track of and distinguishing the ideas.

Why does it matter so much to you that people capitalize the terms?

mildadhd
10-24-15, 10:36 PM
I tried capitalizing sometimes.

I disagree that it's "mandatory to identifying the differences", though it could be helpful for keeping track of and distinguishing the ideas.

Why do you believe it's mandatory? What will happen if people forget that is so terrible?

Capitalization of 7 primary processes terminology represents the unconditioned homologous instinctual primary emotional response systems.

Not capitalized diverse secondary processes terminology represents the diverse emotional experiences of 7 capitalized unconditioned homologous instinctual primary emotional response systems.




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dvdnvwls
10-24-15, 10:46 PM
Peripheral...

Your perception that people are not interested is probably a much too narrow analysis of the situation.

You're assuming that if people don't respond then it must mean they're not interested in the topic, and that's not a fair assumption.

Some people are very sensitive to the way a topic is presented, and most (not just some, but really most) are not interested in seeing third-party opinions posted as content (rather than as support) on a discussion forum.

People on a discussion forum expect to engage in a personal one-on-one conversation with you; if they simply wanted research opinions of experts, they would go and look up for themselves what the experts were saying.

People's expectations on a discussion forum generally are, if you want to present an opinion or point of view, it is your own opinion and your own point of view, and that you are on the forum to discuss and learn and change your mind, not to present the opinions of others and be congratulated.

mildadhd
10-24-15, 10:54 PM
If I start a thread about the capitalized primary processes, and people don't acknowledge the capitalized primary processes with the proper capitalization.

How can we recognize and discuss the biological differences between primary, secondary and tertiary processes?


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namazu
10-24-15, 11:17 PM
How can we recognize and discuss the biological differences between primary, secondary and tertiary processes?
We could try discussing these things in plain English, like we were actually having a conversation about the ideas.

There's more to the ideas than CAPITALIZED WORDS.

And you can figure out, if I say I want to talk about the "primary unconditioned play response" that what I'm talking about is what you like to call "PLAY", even though I didn't capitalize it, because I called it a "primary unconditioned response".

For example, here's a question I have:

What is a primary process / response?

(I'm not looking for a list of the 7 CAPITALIZED primary processes, because you've posted that 20 times already,
and my internet connection is too slow to watch a video,
and I want to discuss this with you, not with a book (because if I wanted to read a book chapter, I wouldn't be on the forum) --
but what do these processes have in common,
how do we know they're primary, and
why are they important to the development of emotion?
Are they fixed over the lifetime, or do they change?)

mildadhd
10-24-15, 11:43 PM
We could try discussing these things in plain English, like we were actually having a conversation about the ideas.

There's more to the ideas than CAPITALIZED WORDS.

And you can figure out, if I say I want to talk about the "primary unconditioned play response" that what I'm talking about is what you like to call "PLAY", even though I didn't capitalize it, because I called it a "primary unconditioned response".

For example, here's a question I have:

What is a primary process / response?

(I'm not looking for a list of the 7 CAPITALIZED primary processes, because you've posted that 20 times already,
and my internet connection is too slow to watch a video,
and I want to discuss this with you, not with a book (because if I wanted to read a book chapter, I wouldn't be on the forum) --
but what do these processes have in common,
how do we know they're primary, and
why are they important to the development of emotion?
Are they fixed over the lifetime, or do they change?)

Preverbal primary processes evolved before verbal tertiary processes.

Like you and Socaljaxs pointed out emotional feelings are hard to talk about.

That is why capitalization is extremely important.

Capitalizing the bottom-up 7 primary emotional-affective response systems distinguishes affective preverbal processes from cognitive verbal processes that evolved on top of primary processes.

(Even the terms used to describe homologous emotional behaviour are secondary to the actual primary process that is why capitalization of the preverbal biology is so important)

A person could use other terms like primitive emotions, etc.

(Dr. Mate expresses both bottom-up and top-down well, but even then I did not completely understand what he meant, until I consciously started capitalizing primitive emotions to distinguish affective consciousness (feelings) and cognitive consciousness (thoughts)

SB_UK is really getting good at expressing the differences, between bottom-up and top-down, with and without capitalized terminology.

I think recognizing the differences between (capitalized) primary and secondary terms will help improve life for all humans, world wide.




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mildadhd
10-25-15, 12:12 AM
Sorry for being so blunt.

If people would attempt to follow the basic capitalized affective terminology guidelines recommended by Prof Panksepp in the opening posts I have posted about primary processes, would really help to resolve the discussion differences expressed in this thread.

I understand what it's like to have a very strong counterwill. :D

(Example: Dr. Neufeld who translated the term counterwill into English lives in the same city I do, but my counterwill is getting in the way of attempting to contact him)

It's that my thread discussions will not make sense unless members interested in the discussion, recognize that capitalization means something very important biologically to the opening post topics.

(It would make it easier for moderators to moderate, specific threads involving discussion about primary, secondary and tertiary processes)

All I can hope for is people to try in my threads, and if not, be considered off topic, if primary processes are not recognized, (and not me who is off topic, because they don't want to try)



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InvitroCanibal
10-25-15, 01:32 AM
Why do people post about their feelings, but are not interested in learning about the biology of their feelings?





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To answer your assumption,

I think most of the time people gravitate for what is concrete. Much of the understanding on neurochemistry and neurobiology isnt concrete. In fact most of it is a good and better guess.

Looking back, almost everything that was considered healthy and safe at one time, for the brain is being debated. Much of what was once considered poisons/neurotoxic such as lithium, nicotine, anti depressants, fats, etc is now considered neuro protective.

Fats are very recently being reintroduced as a miracle diet for people suffering from bipolar 2 and epilepsy.

Neuroglial cells are no longer seen as packing material. And so much of the science is drastically shifting. (See the book "The other brain)" " (look into the ketogenic diet)"

Most people just want something more concrete than neuroscience honestly

Since theoretically, environments do not make us individuals but our perceptions do (gestalt therapy) but our perceptions are flawed then we need to piece together what happened through the perceptions and insight of others.

Its the same reason you asked this question instead of going to a lab to solve it...is it not?

Most people dont always want to know why neurochemically something happened, but what happened and what enviromentally caused it. Because that is easier to understand and control and definetely more helpful. I think in a way a lot of people are amateur sociologists above everything else.

If you are asking why people may not be interested in neurobiology. I have found most people are. I taught a class on action potential to first year psych 101 students. They not only got it but the eagerness they got from it was upliftng for me as I had never taught anything in my life.

Science can really bore the crap out of people if it is not put into context.

I think also, they got it, because I had struggled to understand it at the beginning of my first psych class too. I think that they knew I connected to their struggle and mostly I think people want connection before the answers.

So perhaps your question begs to answer the real question which may be " do people prefer neurobiologic answers first or do they want to confirm their views are rational?"


Me personally, I live and breathe neuroscience. Im an intp so I think about the biology before the people.I actually came to these forums to better understand people because my nickname at my old job was "Sheldon" and Google and the professor...

It doesnt make me anything special, it just is my hobby. Some people have knitting, more power to them. Others knit while reading a neurobiology book..those people...well they are truly one of a kind aren't they :)


Apologies for any spelling/grammar issues, my computer is broken so this was written on my phone.

InvitroCanibal
10-25-15, 02:13 AM
I wanted to emphasize that,

Out of doubt and stupidity came science. People dont always turn to science because it often proves its self wrong through its own proccess.
Don't get to focused on just one mode of thought. It will make you rigid. You can learn something from everyone if you start to truly ask why they are doing something in the least bias and most scientific/logical way. To me at the heart of empathy is unbiased logic.

A great chess player, forgot who, once said, "A true chess player, He doesn't ask himself why his straegy could be right, He asks himself, why his strategy could be wrong."



Time to hyperfocus on something else now...

Thanks

mildadhd
10-25-15, 02:29 AM
I don't think people are being illogical, I think people are discussing about different processing levels.

Capitalizing the 7 primary emotional response systems, distinguishes between primary and secondary, tertiary emotional processing levels.



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stef
10-25-15, 02:34 AM
Its just that many people dont have the scientific background knowledge you have in the first place, and/or, the logical thought patterns you use. there is absolutely nothing personal about this. thrre are just so many backgrounds and ways of thinking and thats what makes this place beautiful!

Socaljaxs
10-25-15, 05:41 AM
We could try discussing these things in plain English, like we were actually having a conversation about the ideas.

:thankyou::thankyou::yes::yes:

I find it fascinating to learn the how's and why of people and human behavior.. Plus I think it helps in bettering ones self...

But, one major problem that I'm having in this particular thread and maybe others here share the same viewpoint as well is that. I have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about..

I don't have a science background or a large enough vocabulary that includes the scientific names of such things you are referring too, that I can pull from... I have no shame in admitting to ignorance of this either. For myself it's not easily understood common words that will make me understand the theory you are speaking of.. Which will make a person such as myself not engage and discuss this further due to lack of understanding.. Which I'm sure some people here have spent their entire lives feeling inadequate or dumb and/or lazy or just plain not smart enough to do things.. Its something that takes a toll of self esteem and people in general do like to point out shortcomings...

To be very blunt...for myself and maybe others as well, It's looks like a bunch of big words that just make my head go "nope not understanding" it's overwhelming... and in a message board geared towards ADHD/ADD it's easier to move on to the next topic than to come out and be like... "Ummm please explain this in 2'year old terms".. People in general do not want to come right out and claim ignorance especially if they have no clue if said topic is of interest to them or not anyways..since the words are just words with out a simple meaning to draw from.. and I doubt people want to google and research every word they don't know or understand when at whole it's not a just an "understand the jist "kinda thing of.. Big words can be kinda scary...

One point that may help as well in terms of gaining an audience to discuss ideas, you are passionate about is to speak to the audience in verbiage they may understand..know your audience and treat them accordingly it will help engage them... After a few responses I for one will just move on cause it's a little overwhelming to try to figure out what you are saying.. Also, people aren't likely to research a topic they have no idea if they would be interested in researching in the first place..

Its just that many people dont have the scientific background knowledge you have in the first place, and/or, the logical thought patterns you use. there is absolutely nothing personal about this. thrre are just so many backgrounds and ways of thinking and thats what makes this place beautiful!

Yup this 100%. It's awesome you have the knowledge you have and would be amazing to able to learn from it as well.. But it helps to understand your views and for many it includes not just speaking in s scientific background.. I totally understand for you it's very easily understood verbage p, in my field I say things all the time that clients are like "huh" I just remind myself that not everyone have the expertise and experience you have and to speak accordingly to help others understand what you are easily understanding

mildadhd
10-25-15, 10:07 AM
There are only 7 homologous mammalian unconditioned primary emotional response systems to know.

SEEKING system

FEAR system

RAGE system

LUST system

CARE system

GRIEF system

PLAY system

I have started lots of thread discussions involving these 7 primary emotional response systems.

I completely understand people won't be interested.

But why do the people who say they are interested not try?

I mean there are only 7 capitalized terms to know, compared to the thousands of secondary emotional terms that come from the interaction of these 7 unconditioned emotional response systems.

Why not try?



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mildadhd
10-25-15, 10:15 AM
The focus of this thread discussion is not limited to people who have ADHD.


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Unmanagable
10-25-15, 10:38 AM
My brain simply can't continually or smoothly flow along with similar trains of thought with the way things are presented within most threads that contain scientific dialogue. Period. Regardless of who posts.

Sometimes, things just click and I can roll with it. Other times, not so much. And it may sound odd or obstinate, but the more I know someone expects me to react in a certain way, the less likely I am to react or respond at all.

aeon
10-25-15, 10:59 AM
Why not try?

For some, it is because considering human emotional experience in terms of
homologous mammalian unconditioned primary response systems seems a
reductionist exercise that throws out the baby with the bathwater.

Such a system is valid to consider and explore, to be sure, but for some
it makes a priori assumptions that may be too much a hurdle to overcome
in light of awareness of other aspects of human nature, human experience,
and the human condition.

Considered within the context of integral theory, exploration of human
emotional experience in terms of homologous mammalian unconditioned
primary response systems limits consideration to only one quadrant of the
self/other, interior/exterior multiplicity.

As such, any insight to truth it provides will be necessarily narrow.

Some people want something more inclusive, something more integral of
other perspectives, something that honors a wider collection of human
disciplines and wisdom traditions.

There are, of course, other reasons that some will give voice to.
I offer you this one to consider.


Namaste,
Ian

Lunacie
10-25-15, 11:00 AM
Sorry for being so blunt.

If people would attempt to follow the basic capitalized affective terminology guidelines recommended by Prof Panksepp in the opening posts I have posted about primary processes, would really help to resolve the discussion differences expressed in this thread.

I understand what it's like to have a very strong counterwill. :D

(Example: Dr. Neufeld who translated the term counterwill into English lives in the same city I do, but my counterwill is getting in the way of attempting to contact him)

It's that my thread discussions will not make sense unless members interested in the discussion, recognize that capitalization means something very important biologically to the opening post topics.

(It would make it easier for moderators to moderate, specific threads involving discussion about primary, secondary and tertiary processes)

All I can hope for is people to try in my threads, and if not, be considered off topic, if primary processes are not recognized, (and not me who is off topic, because they don't want to try)



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You're only seeing one side of this. You're saying it's the fault of others that
we can't have a good discussion on this topic because we're ignoring this rule
about capitalizing some things (a rule I had no idea about before this thread).

But apparently you aren't seeing how you could help the discussion yourself
by posting your own thoughts and what you think about the thoughts the
rest of us have.

You remind me of the episode of Big Bang Theory where Sheldon is explaining
scientific ideas to Penny. Every time she asks a questions he starts over from
the beginning, repeating the same idea word for word because he thinks that
will make her understand so she doesn't need to ask any questions.

mildadhd
10-25-15, 11:10 AM
My brain simply can't continually or smoothly flow along with similar trains of thought with the way things are presented within most threads that contain scientific dialogue. Period. Regardless of who posts.

Sometimes, things just click and I can roll with it. Other times, not so much. And it may sound odd or obstinate, but the more I know someone expects me to react in a certain way, the less likely I am to react or respond at all.

3 brain processing levels.

Level 3 is neocortical area (tertiary)
Level 2 is upper limbic area (secondary)
Level 1 is deeply subcortical area (primary)

Emotions originate in level 1

(Thoughts originate in level 3)

Capitalizing the 7 primary emotional response systems helps recognize the basic emotional behaviors known to be common (biologically similar/homologous) in all mammals. (Level 1)

Verses the enormous diversity of secondary and tertiary emotional terminology, involved in describing personal experiences involving (level 2) and (level 3)

The capitalization of the 7 primary systems are important because capitalization recognizes our similarities (at level 1), before different individual emotional experiences occur (at levels 2 and 3), that make us individually unique.

(Level 1) "Prototype" (Dr Damasio, Dr Panksepp)



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Unmanagable
10-25-15, 11:16 AM
This is a good example of a response within a thread that doesn't click and I can't roll with the flow of information.

My lack of a continued response may appear to be me ignoring you or not being interested in the info, but it's a case of my brain not absorbing what you are trying to say in the way you are saying it.

I only have a small amount of energy I can use to sort stuff in my mind within a day, and I don't choose to make this one a priority. But that doesn't mean I'm absolutely not interested, I likely just choose to observe rather than try to participate. Does that make sense?

3 brain processing levels.

Level 3 is neocortical area (tertiary)
Level 2 is upper limbic area (secondary)
Level 1 is deeply subcortical area (primary)

Emotions originate in level 1

Capitalizing the 7 primary emotional response systems helps recognize the basic emotional behaviors known to be common (biologically similar/homologous) in all mammals. (Level 1)

Verses the enormous diversity of secondary and tertiary emotional terminology, involved in personal experiences (level 2) and (level 3)

The capitalization of the 7 primary systems are important because capitalization recognizes our similarities (at level 1), before different individual emotional experiences occur (at levels 2 and 3), that make us individually unique.

"Prototype" (Dr Damasio, Dr Panksepp)



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dvdnvwls
10-25-15, 11:17 AM
Sorry for being so blunt.

If people would attempt to follow the basic capitalized affective terminology guidelines recommended by Prof Panksepp in the opening posts I have posted about primary processes, would really help to resolve the discussion differences expressed in this thread.

I'll be equally blunt.

People doing things the way you want them to is not how a discussion forum is supposed to work.

This has nothing to do with anybody's counterwill; it's because it's a discussion forum, not "Peripheral's Classroom".

daveddd
10-25-15, 11:25 AM
ive dabbled in your threads

coming from someone who is ridgid at posting maybe the bottom up approach (pun intended) of learning about bottom up emotions and ADHD might not be an attention grabber

outline the relationship between bottom up emotions and ADHD first while working in explanations throughout a little here and there, may be more of an attention holder

mildadhd
10-25-15, 11:39 AM
This is a good example of a response within a thread that doesn't click and I can't roll with the flow of information.

My lack of a continued response may appear to be me ignoring you or not being interested in the info, but it's a case of my brain not absorbing what you are trying to say in the way you are saying it.

I only have a small amount of energy I can use to sort stuff in my mind within a day, and I don't choose to make this one a priority. But that doesn't mean I'm absolutely not interested, I likely just choose to observe rather than try to participate. Does that make sense?

I completely understand, I am the same way.



P

mildadhd
10-25-15, 11:45 AM
I'll be equally blunt.

People doing things the way you want them to is not how a discussion forum is supposed to work.

This has nothing to do with anybody's counterwill; it's because it's a discussion forum, not "Peripheral's Classroom".

You got the entire forum to discuss topics your interested.

If I start a thread about homologous primary systems, it is you who is off topic and derailing the thread, by not addressing raw primary emotional response systems.




P

mildadhd
10-25-15, 11:57 AM
For some, it is because considering human emotional experience in terms of
homologous mammalian unconditioned primary response systems seems a
reductionist exercise that throws out the baby with the bathwater.

Such a system is valid to consider and explore, to be sure, but for some
it makes a priori assumptions that may be too much a hurdle to overcome
in light of awareness of other aspects of human nature, human experience,
and the human condition.

Considered within the context of integral theory, exploration of human
emotional experience in terms of homologous mammalian unconditioned
primary response systems limits consideration to only one quadrant of the
self/other, interior/exterior multiplicity.

As such, any insight to truth it provides will be necessarily narrow.

Some people want something more inclusive, something more integral of
other perspectives, something that honors a wider collection of human
disciplines and wisdom traditions.

There are, of course, other reasons that some will give voice to.
I offer you this one to consider.


Namaste,
Ian

I am all for discussing all levels of processing, from both bottom-up and top-down.

I am starting discussion about feelings from the bottom-up because that is the order development occurs naturally/instinctually. (Very important to recognize)

An analogy would be like learning to count the single digits from 1 to 9, before getting into counting double digits.

Do you consider the primary emotional response systems, along with secondary and tertiary processes?


P

dvdnvwls
10-25-15, 12:02 PM
When you write a thread, imagine yourself to be one of the readers.

As a reader, you are thinking "I'd like to read something that is new to me, that matters in my life, and that I can understand".

So...

- if you have posted about something before, don't post about it again, even if no one was interested the first time. They'll be not interested the second time either.

- write in a way that shows everyone precisely what's interesting for them about the topic - just posting the topic itself is never interesting unless many readers were already thinking about it. (If I post about money or food, I can be sure that quite a few people were already thinking about that. If I post about chromatic harmony in late-19th-century music, I'll need to write a very good introduction and explanation if I expect anyone to care.)

- write so that someone who doesn't know the topic will suddenly understand it better, and suddenly see how it relates to them. Important: YOU need to write that way. It doesn't matter how Dr. Panksepp or anyone else writes. YOU present the topic. YOU discuss in YOUR words what you are thinking about.

Socaljaxs
10-25-15, 12:30 PM
The focus of this thread discussion is not limited to people who have ADHD.


Please read what I said, which is "this is a message board GEARED towards ADHD/ADD" I never said it I'm limited only to people with ADHD.. Big difference.

. You remind me of the episode of Big Bang Theory where Sheldon is explaining scientific ideas to Penny. Every time she asks a questions he starts over from the beginning, repeating the same idea word for word because he thinks that will make her understand so she doesn't need to ask any questions.

:thankyou::grouphug: :goodpost::yes: we need more of these :eek:.. This is exactly how I feel awe Sheldon :o


When you write a thread, imagine yourself to be one of the readers.

As a reader, you are thinking "I'd like to read something that is new to me, that matters in my life, and that I can understand".

So...

- if you have posted about something before, don't post about it again, even if no one was interested the first time. They'll be not interested the second time either.

- write in a way that shows everyone precisely what's interesting for them about the topic - just posting the topic itself is never interesting unless many readers were already thinking about it. (If I post about money or food, I can be sure that quite a few people were already thinking about that. If I post about chromatic harmony in late-19th-century music, I'll need to write a very good introduction and explanation if I expect anyone to care.)

- write so that someone who doesn't know the topic will suddenly understand it better, and suddenly see how it relates to them. Important: YOU need to write that way. It doesn't matter how Dr. Panksepp or anyone else writes. YOU present the topic. YOU discuss in YOUR words what you are thinking about.

:goodpost: :thankyou:

Please understand which I don't think you are is that it's not that we don't care and don't think it is important we just understand what being said.

aeon
10-25-15, 01:11 PM
I am starting discussion about feelings from the bottom-up because that is the order development occurs naturally/instinctually. (Very important to recognize)

Do we know this to be true with absolute certainty?

I will just say that I agree and also think this is the case, but I also allow for other possibilities.

If your wish is to have others engage, you might be better served by stating things as assumptions,
not facts. One is inclusive, the other is exclusive. Invite, welcome, and encourage. Tend toward
openness versus closed-ness. Strive to be descriptive as opposed to prescriptive.

I can appreciate that you want to define a context for the discussion.

There are ways to do that which encourage discussion.
There are also ways to do that which leave you talking to a wall.

Asking “is this so?” will tend to attract. Stating “this is so.” does just that.

I also think that introducing material in the form of natural language, with additional information
in the form of quotations, links, and citations, encourages participation because it provides
opportunities for would-be participants to get “up to speed” with the material you would
like to explore. Structured outlines with key points, presented to the exclusion of other materials
and methods, isn’t conversational, and in turn, neither invites nor encourages the same.

Do you consider the primary emotional response systems, along with secondary and tertiary processes?

Yes, very much so, but I do so grounded in neurodevelopmental biology. Talking about human
emotional response systems as processes can seem too abstract without considering that human growth
and development (relevant to these affective systems) occurs in the context of reciprocal relationships
that are mutually co-created.

There is a social context to this aspect of human development, and indeed, normative development
does not occur in its absence. I do very much enjoy considering that the basis of affective dysregulation,
myriad neurodevelopmental disorders, and various psychopathologies may be the result of deficits within,
and/or interruption of, those early reciprocal relationships.

But I ask you forgive my having become a cheerleader for Dr. Allan Schore. My own life narrative
and sense of self had never seemed so coherent and clear before reading his works. I offer this so
you might have some point of reference by which to consider my preference for exploring human
emotional response systems and their development in the above-mentioned context of
neurodevelopmental biology.


Namaste,
Ian

Little Missy
10-25-15, 04:09 PM
I think it might be interesting if you had a different topic to post about.

Luvmybully
10-25-15, 04:34 PM
Why do people post about their feelings, but are not interested in learning about the biology of their feelings?





P

I am just not interested in the biology of feelings.

There are all sorts of things I am interested enough in to really explore, but this is not one of them.

Fuzzy12
10-25-15, 04:53 PM
Peri, as someone has said earlier I too to be honest just don't understand most of the terminology you use in these threads. Ive got no clue what primary, secondary and tertiary emotional systems are for example. I could look it up but I still don't think I can discuss feelings at that level or actually contribute anything useful to these thread.

I do think that feelings are an interesting topic but I guess I can only discuss them in layman terms..or maybe even just in layman topics.

dvdnvwls
10-25-15, 06:20 PM
Please understand which I don't think you are is that it's not that we don't care and don't think it is important we just understand what being said.
This isn't true for everyone. I think it's possibly mostly not true. I really don't care about the topic Peripheral is mentioning here. The reason I don't care about it is that I have never been shown why I should - at least not in a way that convinced me.

mildadhd
10-25-15, 06:38 PM
Do we know this to be true with absolute certainty?

I will just say that I agree and also think this is the case, but I also allow for other possibilities.

If your wish is to have others engage, you might be better served by stating things as assumptions,
not facts. One is inclusive, the other is exclusive. Invite, welcome, and encourage. Tend toward
openness versus closed-ness. Strive to be descriptive as opposed to prescriptive.

I can appreciate that you want to define a context for the discussion.

There are ways to do that which encourage discussion.
There are also ways to do that which leave you talking to a wall.

Asking “is this so?” will tend to attract. Stating “this is so.” does just that.

I also think that introducing material in the form of natural language, with additional information
in the form of quotations, links, and citations, encourages participation because it provides
opportunities for would-be participants to get “up to speed” with the material you would
like to explore. Structured outlines with key points, presented to the exclusion of other materials
and methods, isn’t conversational, and in turn, neither invites nor encourages the same.



Yes, very much so, but I do so grounded in neurodevelopmental biology. Talking about human
emotional response systems as processes can seem too abstract without considering that human growth
and development (relevant to these affective systems) occurs in the context of reciprocal relationships
that are mutually co-created.

There is a social context to this aspect of human development, and indeed, normative development
does not occur in its absence. I do very much enjoy considering that the basis of affective dysregulation,
myriad neurodevelopmental disorders, and various psychopathologies may be the result of deficits within,
and/or interruption of, those early reciprocal relationships.

But I ask you forgive my having become a cheerleader for Dr. Allan Schore. My own life narrative
and sense of self had never seemed so coherent and clear before reading his works. I offer this so
you might have some point of reference by which to consider my preference for exploring human
emotional response systems and their development in the above-mentioned context of
neurodevelopmental biology.


Namaste,
Ian

Help me out.

How would you distinguish between primary unconditioned emotional response systems and secondary conditioned responses?


P

dvdnvwls
10-25-15, 06:48 PM
Help me out.

How would you distinguish between primary unconditioned emotional response systems and secondary conditioned responses?

This is one of your favourite topics. Why don't you answer for a change?

Lunacie
10-25-15, 06:55 PM
This is one of your favourite topics. Why don't you answer for a change?

And could you answer by sharing what your mind is telling you instead of what
you read in a book?

mildadhd
10-25-15, 07:10 PM
Peri, as someone has said earlier I too to be honest just don't understand most of the terminology you use in these threads. Ive got no clue what primary, secondary and tertiary emotional systems are for example. I could look it up but I still don't think I can discuss feelings at that level or actually contribute anything useful to these thread.

I do think that feelings are an interesting topic but I guess I can only discuss them in layman terms..or maybe even just in layman topics.

Thanks Fuzzy

I understand, it happens to me with other topics.

Yours and others explanations helps me in this thread, even if the topics are not your thing.

Side note, it's the few members that ask questions like they are interested, but then refuse to discuss, that I am finding most perplexing.

Anyway I really appreciate the replies in general.

If anyone can help me find ways to distinguish between the 7 unconditioned emotional response systems and secondary conditioned responses is also much appreciated.

Capitalization of the 7 unconditioned primary emotional response systems, is the best way I have come across so far to distinguish the differences between unconditioned emotional response systems and secondary conditioned responses.

I am always open to other ideas.

Thanks




P

Lunacie
10-25-15, 07:15 PM
Thanks Fuzzy

I understand, it happens to me with other topics.

Yours and others explanations helps me in this thread, even if the topics are not your thing.

Side note, it's the few members that ask questions like they are interested, but refuse to discuss then refuse topics, that I am finding most perplexing?

Anyway I really appreciate replies.


P.

A discussion, in my opinion, involves two or more people discussing their
thoughts and opinions. I can read a book if I want to know what an author
thinks. If you start a thread on the forum and I ask you a question, I'm
asking you to share your thoughts or opinions, not the authors thoughts.

Answer my questions in your own words and I'll be happy to try to discuss
the topic ... or tell you that I don't really understand.

BellaVita
10-25-15, 09:58 PM
And could you answer by sharing what your mind is telling you instead of what
you read in a book?

Not trying to be weird...but maybe his way of communication is by scripting what's been said in a book?

Some people have difficulties writing things in their own words.

It seriously wasn't until the age of 19-20ish when I started to develop my personality in writing and started coming up with "original" thoughts, I mean that were truly complex and that I could write about in my own words.

Before then, I had difficulties expressing myself and mostly just said what everyone else said or what books said. (or websites I was interested in)

When I was first learning to write here, I had to study other personalities (Abi was the main one I studied in the beginning), studied how he wrote things, and tried to write based off of how he wrote.

Sounds lame, but it was how my mind worked.

Now, at 22, I have gone leaps and bounds in personality development and especially verbal communication, and I can better write how I want to write instead of relying on someone else's word choices and styles.

aeon
10-25-15, 10:17 PM
Help me out.

How would you distinguish between primary unconditioned emotional response systems and secondary conditioned responses?

I’m not sure I would and I am not sure I could because I am not sure that unconditioned emotional response systems exist within the human animal.

Which is to say, my understanding of human neurodevelopment is such that all emotional response systems are necessarily co-created, mutually cultivated, decidedly conditioned, shaped, and made manifest through reciprocity and witness of Self in Other.

My sense is that we are Tabula Rasa at birth. In us exists myriad potentials, some more likely, some less, some foul, some fair. Only when states of biological distress are soothed with constancy such that successful affective regulation becomes the normative framework for neuronal growth and interconnection does the emergence and development of the Self, and the creation and development of conditioned emotional response systems, begin.

Well, it begins regardless of the framework, and when that framework is not normative, neither is the emergence and development of that Self. This is some confluence of nurture given (or not) and nature (potential) realized, to varying degree. As it is in all human infants. But it is those who develop in the context of non-normative frameworks who may go on to demonstrate affective dysregulation, disordered attachment, and/or eventual psychopathology, each according to the confluence of nurture given (or not) and nature (potential) realized.

So again, I am not sure unconditioned emotional response systems exist within the human animal. I don’t rule it out, but nothing in my understanding of human infant neurodevelopment suggests they do. To the contrary, everything in my understanding suggests that human emotional response systems are conditioned, and are the product of a reciprocal relationship with a caregiver, for better or worse.


Cheers,
Ian

InvitroCanibal
10-25-15, 10:20 PM
3 brain processing levels.

Level 3 is neocortical area (tertiary)
Level 2 is upper limbic area (secondary)
Level 1 is deeply subcortical area (primary)

Emotions originate in level 1

(Thoughts originate in level 3)

Capitalizing the 7 primary emotional response systems helps recognize the basic emotional behaviors known to be common (biologically similar/homologous) in all mammals. (Level 1)

Verses the enormous diversity of secondary and tertiary emotional terminology, involved in describing personal experiences involving (level 2) and (level 3)

The capitalization of the 7 primary systems are important because capitalization recognizes our similarities (at level 1), before different individual emotional experiences occur (at levels 2 and 3), that make us individually unique.

(Level 1) "Prototype" (Dr Damasio, Dr Panksepp)



P

Those ideas about brain proccessing may be out dated. The brain shares information and proccesses tasks on a cell by cell basis through neuro chemical modulation it prioritizes and then fires through electrical gradients. Chemeoosmosis is very much like file sharing.

Our brains do use gyri to operate on a top down structure but those are just prioritizers that look at cues from the out put of the limbic system on what to prioritize. Most of the processing occurs throughout the brain and is analyzed collectively by the astrocytes.

One reason we know the brain isnt actually centralized to a hirearchy is because of hemispherectomy studies. It is hard to destroy a region of function when its functions and tasks can be distributed else where and independently of any central thought. This is why they have no idea, out of those 7 levels you mentioned, where thought comes from.

Because thats sort of like asking who the president of the internet is.

I think the ambiguity of this thread is related to the lack of clarity in the question. So im not sure what it is you are actually asking? As you can see, science is always changing.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-root-of-thought-what/

I think this link may explain some of neuroglial communication. Consider reading the book "The spider and the starfish" as well

Lunacie
10-25-15, 10:35 PM
Not trying to be weird...but maybe his way of communication is by scripting what's been said in a book?

Some people have difficulties writing things in their own words.

It seriously wasn't until the age of 19-20ish when I started to develop my personality in writing and started coming up with "original" thoughts, I mean that were truly complex and that I could write about in my own words.

Before then, I had difficulties expressing myself and mostly just said what everyone else said or what books said. (or websites I was interested in)

When I was first learning to write here, I had to study other personalities (Abi was the main one I studied in the beginning), studied how he wrote things, and tried to write based off of how he wrote.

Sounds lame, but it was how my mind worked.

Now, at 22, I have gone leaps and bounds in personality development and especially verbal communication, and I can better write how I want to write instead of relying on someone else's word choices and styles.

Yes, I've thought something like that could be going on. That's what I meant
when I said it was like we are talking different languages. I will think I under-
stand what Peri is asking about and give a response, but he gets frustrated
because apparently he thinks I'm talking about something different.

After that happens a few times I pretty much give up and go away. I've seen
that interaction with other posters. And then Peri gets upset because we've
left the discussion. :umm1:

InvitroCanibal
10-25-15, 11:11 PM
Yes, I've thought something like that could be going on. That's what I meant
when I said it was like we are talking different languages. I will think I under-
stand what Peri is asking about and give a response, but he gets frustrated
because apparently he thinks I'm talking about something different.

After that happens a few times I pretty much give up and go away. I've seen
that interaction with other posters. And then Peri gets upset because we've
left the discussion. :umm1:


I like peri's questions and statements. I think the tension hits when saying you dont understand something he says, is confused for not being able to understand. Then it sort of feels like the discussion becomes ego flexing and people use big and bigger words to portray very small ideas.

Then the thread derails and I dont think it was that peri got upset I think not being understood is frustrating in general.

What worries me is the possible escalation on this thread as criticism is being directed at peri and not his statements.

But I think that being open to asking more questions needs to be a set standard in this thread.

Carl Sigon said that extraordinary explanations requires,extraordinary evidence. We are dealing with complex questions that are so complex that much of the research has only just begun to hypothesize on.

Realize Peripheral, that your questions cant be answered without referencing a paper or source material from which your question was derrived from.

If you want us to understand the question, provide sources to your statements such as links that put it in context. For example, You cant hold a book review if no one knows the title of the book you are discussing.

mildadhd
10-26-15, 08:36 AM
I like peri's questions and statements. I think the tension hits when saying you dont understand something he says, is confused for not being able to understand. Then it sort of feels like the discussion becomes ego flexing and people use big and bigger words to portray very small ideas.

Then the thread derails and I dont think it was that peri got upset I think not being understood is frustrating in general.

What worries me is the possible escalation on this thread as criticism is being directed at peri and not his statements.

But I think that being open to asking more questions needs to be a set standard in this thread.

Carl Sigon said that extraordinary explanations requires,extraordinary evidence. We are dealing with complex questions that are so complex that much of the research has only just begun to hypothesize on.

Realize Peripheral, that your questions cant be answered without referencing a paper or source material from which your question was derrived from.

If you want us to understand the question, provide sources to your statements such as links that put it in context. For example, You cant hold a book review if no one knows the title of the book you are discussing.


Thanks

Why do people post about their feelings, but are not interested in learning about the biology of their feelings?

Any information that helps us learn the biology of our feelings in general would be good, in this thread.

Your right I have my preferences but I haven't posted much specifically, in this thread.

I am wondering about others interests in the biology of feelings, so far nobody has posted any specific interest.

Which is my point.

(I have lots of threads attempting to)

(Got to run to work will post my interests when I get home)


P

Lunacie
10-26-15, 12:44 PM
I like peri's questions and statements. I think the tension hits when saying you dont understand something he says, is confused for not being able to understand. Then it sort of feels like the discussion becomes ego flexing and people use big and bigger words to portray very small ideas.

Then the thread derails and I dont think it was that peri got upset I think not being understood is frustrating in general.

...

Yes not being understood is terribly frustrating. Case in point: my autistic
granddaughter talks too softly for us to hear what she says.

"What did you say?" And she responds, "nevermind."

I finally caught the tail end of an idea and explained that she has super-duper
hearing so she thinks she's talking loudly enough, but most of us don't have
such super-duper hearing and we can't hear her clearly.

She may not remember to speak a little more loudly the first time, but hope-
fully she won't get frustrated when we don't understand the first time.


One thing I've been reading in these responses to Peri is that we think we
understand what he is asking, post a response which isn't what he is looking
for, and both sides get frustrated which stimies any discussion. Yes?

dvdnvwls
10-26-15, 01:14 PM
One thing I've been reading in these responses to Peri is that we think we
understand what he is asking, post a response which isn't what he is looking
for, and both sides get frustrated which stimies any discussion. Yes?
I'm not completely certain about it, but I'm going with this for the moment because it sounds kind of right to me.

Regardless of whether the rest of it is accurate or inaccurate or in between, the part of Lunacie's message that I've bolded is very important to this whole discussion IMO.

Peripheral gets a response that isn't what he's looking for, and is frustrated by that.

Isn't that probably a better title for this entire thread?

The "missing link" is that on a discussion forum there are other people. They are going to respond in all kinds of different ways, often including no response at all.

Posting a new thread creates a stimulus. The answers that come back (or the lack of answers) constitute a response.

Repeating the same stimulus will bring the same response again. That same response is not the fault of the responder; it's simply the expected result.

If you are looking for a different response, you have to change to a different stimulus. If you are looking for a very different response, you have to change to a very different stimulus.

mildadhd
10-26-15, 11:03 PM
The link below was posted previously in this thread already, trying to avoid a complex scientific discussion in this thread, to get everyone's opinions.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1764548&postcount=10

I would like to reread the link you posted earlier, and discuss the topics more on the weekend.

I am not frustrated and can actually relate to the big picture in the members replies in this thread.

In superduperlayman, I want to understand the biology of my emotional feelings.

We are born with basic raw emotional systems, and raw emotional behaviors.


The primary-process emotional-affective networks of mammalian brains

Brain research supports the existence of at least seven primary-process (basic) emotional systems - SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, GRIEF (formerly PANIC), and PLAY - concentrated in ancient subcortical regions of all mammalian brains.

In sum, affective neuroscientific analysis of basic emotions is based on several highly replicable facts:

(i) Coherent emotional-instinctual behaviors can be aroused by electrically stimulating very specific subcortical regions of the brain;

(ii) Wherever one evokes emotional action patterns with ESB, there are accompanying affective experiences. Again, the gold standard for this assertion is the fact that the brain stimulations can serve as “rewards” when positive-emotions are aroused - eg, SEEKING, LUST, CARE, and aspects of PLAY. When negative emotions are aroused - RAGE, FEAR, GRIEF - animals escape the stimulation;

(iii) The above behavioral and affective changes are rarely, if ever, evoked from higher prefrontal neocortical regions, suggesting that higher brain areas may not have the appropriate circuitry to generate affective experiences, although the neocortex can clearly regulate (eg, inhibit) emotional arousals and, no doubt, prompt emotional feelings by dwelling on life problems.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181986/

mildadhd
10-26-15, 11:48 PM
Dr Temple Grandin capitalizes/discusses the 7 primary emotional-affects throughout her book "Animals Make Us Human".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exKpcOyPerk


P

dvdnvwls
10-27-15, 12:26 AM
Dr Temple Grandin capitalizes/discusses the 7 primary emotional-affects throughout her book "Animals Make Us Human".
I don't care if she does. Please, YOU talk about them.

Lunacie
10-27-15, 12:00 PM
I don't care if she does. Please, YOU talk about them.

I would love to have a discussion with Dr. Grandin, but she doesn't post here.

I'd like to have a real discussion with Peri. If I could figure out how to do that.

When we post quotes and videos from people besides Grandin, Panskepp and
that other doctor, it seems we're not "on topic."

When I share my thoughts, opinions and feelings in the way that I know how
to have a discussion, I'm told that I don't understand what the topic is.

Peri may not be frustrated, but I sure am.

mildadhd
10-27-15, 08:06 PM
Human's have 7 unconditioned emotional response systems.

Each system has a raw emotional behavior.

SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, GRIEF, PLAY




P

Lunacie
10-27-15, 08:16 PM
All humans have 7 homologous unconditioned emotional response systems.

Each system has a raw emotional behavior.

SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, GRIEF, PLAY




P

Okay, we've read this before. Now tell us something about the raw emotional
behavior that you've noticed you do when you feel one of those seven things.

My example: when I feel lust I really notice things about men's bodies, the size
and shape of their lips or their hands, the shape of their buns.

Sorry: LUST

mildadhd
10-27-15, 08:21 PM
I would love to have a discussion with Dr. Grandin, but she doesn't post here.

I'd like to have a real discussion with Peri. If I could figure out how to do that.

When we post quotes and videos from people besides Grandin, Panskepp and
that other doctor, it seems we're not "on topic."

When I share my thoughts, opinions and feelings in the way that I know how
to have a discussion, I'm told that I don't understand what the topic is.

Peri may not be frustrated, but I sure am.



I could send you a copy of "Animals Make Us Human", by Dr Grandin, and then we could discuss the information in the book together?



P

Socaljaxs
10-27-15, 08:23 PM
Human's have 7 unconditioned emotional response systems. Each system has a raw emotional behavior.
SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, GRIEF, PLAY P

Sheldon is that you? Like for reals are you being serious with the same post in this thread repeated over and over? Why? It's like :eyebrow::scratch::scratch::eek:

you remind me of the episode of Big Bang Theory where Sheldon is explaining
scientific ideas to Penny. Every time she asks a questions he starts over from
the beginning, repeating the same idea word for word because he thinks that
will make her understand so she doesn't need to ask any questions.

Lunacie
10-27-15, 08:37 PM
I could send you a copy of "Animals Make Us Human", by Dr Grandin, and then we could discuss the information in the book together?



P

O.M.G. :doh:

I tried to discuss something with you, but I can't discuss based on what you've
posted ... now I have to read something else before we can discuss? Really?


Q: In Animals Make Us Human, you discuss a wide range of animals, from dogs to pigs to tigers. Which animals do you enjoy studying and working with the most?

A: I've worked with cattle the most, so I really enjoy cattle. I always liked to sit in the pen and let the cattle come around me and lick me--they're really peaceful animals when they're not afraid. But the thing about cattle is they're a prey-species animal and they get scared really easily--and I can relate to that because as a person with autism, fear is my main emotion. So I can relate to how cattle are always hypervigilant, looking for rapid movements, looking for little signs of things that might be danger.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=172733

Peri, which of the seven unconditioned response systems is your main emotion?
Why? How does it affect your behavior? Discuss?

Greyhound1
10-27-15, 09:18 PM
P.
I googled Biology of feelings and found this. I hope it helps.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/emotion/

mildadhd
10-27-15, 09:59 PM
O.M.G. :doh:

I tried to discuss something with you, but I can't discuss based on what you've
posted ... now I have to read something else before we can discuss? Really?




Peri, which of the seven unconditioned response systems is your main emotion?
Why? How does it affect your behavior? Discuss?

Lunacie

I did not read your last two posts til after my last post.

Your asking some really good questions, I would like to take sometime to consider your questions, before I reply.

Thanks

P

mildadhd
10-27-15, 10:05 PM
P.
I googled Biology of feelings and found this. I hope it helps.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/emotion/

Thanks

It does help.


P

mildadhd
10-27-15, 10:18 PM
Sheldon is that you? Like for reals are you being serious with the same post in this thread repeated over and over? Why? It's like :eyebrow::scratch::scratch::eek:

Being interested in understanding primary emotional-affect does involve being interested biology.

Maybe it's me who need's to study the biology more, to help me explain myself better in words.


Thanks


P

Lunacie
10-27-15, 11:06 PM
I would have a hard time saying that just one of the seven is my main emotion.

I'd say it's a split between the CARE response (maternal) and the PANIC/GRIEF
response (anxiety/depression).

In fact, sometimes the CARE response triggers the PANIC response, such as
when a family member is very late getting home.

dvdnvwls
10-28-15, 01:11 AM
I could send you a copy of "Animals Make Us Human", by Dr Grandin, and then we could discuss the information in the book together?

Please, YOU discuss the things you are talking about. Do not direct people to read something else. YOU write. YOU talk. Say what YOU mean. I don't care what Temple Grandin says. What do YOU say?

dvdnvwls
10-28-15, 01:30 AM
Being interested in understanding primary emotional-affect does involve being interested biology.

Maybe it's me who need's to study the biology more, to help me explain myself better in words.

There is no reason on the forum for you to study more biology.

I have a direct (and I hope useful) challenge for you...

When posting on this forum for the next two weeks, post no authors, no quotes, no people's names, no sources, no videos, no websites, no publications - just talk and discuss things yourself.

BellaVita
10-28-15, 01:50 AM
Peripheral -

I just want to say I see you trying to communicate and I think you're doing a great job, trust me I know it can be difficult to put things into own words.

:grouphug:

Just gotta do your best, ya know?

aeon
10-28-15, 04:16 PM
Just off-the-cuff, here’s my thoughts on my experience of the
7 unconditioned emotional response systems, at least as I
understand them:


SEEKING - average to strong presentation, varies by life domain
RAGE - strong inhibition
FEAR - average to strong presentation, varies by situation
LUST - usually strong inhibition, but at times strong presentation
CARE - average presentation
GRIEF - usually inhibited, at times dysregulated presentation
PLAY - strong presentation



Cheers,
Ian

Delphine
10-28-15, 08:45 PM
Why do people post about their feelings, but are not interested in learning about the biology of their feelings?

P

It could be a timing thing? Perhaps share the feelings first, and learn about the biology of them later?

A few years ago I saw a grief counsellor, immediately after the death of a very close loved one.

I shared my bottled up feelings of loss and grief with her (didn't want to distress family/friends, so I'd chosen to share with a professional instead).

Her response was to explain the biology of the grieving brain; how she'd recently been reading about how certain reminders were involved in triggering the amygdala into lightening-speed feelings of sadness etc. etc.

Interesting as that information was - in that moment, I felt quite unheard and lonelier than before. I'd needed validation for my feelings first and foremost. A bit of compassion.

(I changed therapists shortly afterwards, to a more compassionate one who validated and acknowledged my feelings of loss, which helped me heal and move on a lot faster.)

Months and months later, once I'd processed the pain, the biology of those feelings might have been more interesting. But right at the beginning, when I longed to simply share and be acknowledged, biology was not the first step I needed.

mildadhd
10-28-15, 10:32 PM
I really wanted to thank everyone for the discussions.

Thanks for considering/including our homologous emotional systems in your experiences.

I am learning tonnes so far.

Will reply on weekend.



P

mildadhd
10-31-15, 01:35 PM
..My example: when I feel lust I really notice things about men's bodies, the size
and shape of their lips or their hands, the shape of their buns.

Sorry: LUST

I would not say "Sorry".

.."example: when I feel lust I really notice things about...bodies, the size
and shape of their lips or their hands, the shape of their buns."

System: LUST



P

mildadhd
10-31-15, 02:24 PM
I would have a hard time saying that just one of the seven is my main emotion.

I'd say it's a split between the CARE response (maternal) and the PANIC/GRIEF
response (anxiety/depression).

In fact, sometimes the CARE response triggers the PANIC response, such as
when a family member is very late getting home.

CARE system and PANIC/GRIEF system are two separate interacting social emotional response systems

PANIC/GRIEF inhibits opioids causing anxious/panic response.


I was watching a tv show about elephants.

When some lions attacked a baby elephant, separated from the herd of elephants.

As the lions attacked the baby elephant, the baby elephant ran crying out sounds described by the TV show narrator as calls of grief.

The mother elephant and some of the other elephants heard the calls of grief.

And ran back to chase the lions away and save the baby.

When PANIC/GRIEF system is stimulated it inhibits opioids, causing us to miss people we love.

When CARE system is stimulated it encourages opioids, causing us to love people we love.

(Layhuman)



P

Lunacie
10-31-15, 02:39 PM
I would not say "Sorry".

.."example: when I feel lust I really notice things about...bodies, the size
and shape of their lips or their hands, the shape of their buns."

System: LUST



P

I didn't mean I'm sorry for feeling lust. I mean, Sorry for forgetting to capitalize LUST.

Lunacie
10-31-15, 02:45 PM
CARE system and PANIC/GRIEF system are two separate interacting social emotional response systems

PANIC/GRIEF inhibits opioids causing anxious/panic response.


I was watching a tv show about elephants.

When some lions attacked a baby elephant, separated from the herd of elephants.

As the lions attacked the baby elephant, the baby elephant ran crying out sounds described by the TV show narrator as calls of grief.

The mother elephant and some of the other elephants heard the calls of grief.

And ran back to chase the lions away and save the baby.

When PANIC/GRIEF system is stimulated it inhibits opioids, causing us to miss people we love.

When CARE system is stimulated it encourages opioids, causing us to love people we love.

(Layhuman)



P

I know that they are two separate emotions, but they seem closely connected for me personally.

My example was that I CARE for my family so my PANIC response is triggered when they are late getting home.

You flipped it in your example where the PANIC call of the baby elephant triggered the CARE response in the rest of the herd.

We could probably find similar interactions between the other primary emotions.

mildadhd
10-31-15, 02:58 PM
I didn't mean I'm sorry for feeling lust. I mean, Sorry for forgetting to capitalize LUST.

Yes, I understand.

But you where correct by not capitalizing.

Uncapitalized "lust" describes your conditioned experience. (Secondary level)

Capitalized "LUST" describes our genetic unconditioned emotional response system. (Primary level)


LUST/lust

Unconditioned/conditioned




P

Lunacie
10-31-15, 03:06 PM
Yes, I understand.

But you where correct by not capitalizing.

Uncapitalized "lust" describes your conditioned experience. (Secondary level)

Capitalized "LUST" describes our genetic unconditioned emotional response system. (Primary level)


LUST/lust

Unconditioned/conditioned




P

I don't understand the difference you're claiming.

Could you give examples of Unconditioned LUST and conditioned lust?

mildadhd
10-31-15, 03:15 PM
I know that they are two separate emotions, but they seem closely connected for me personally.

My example was that I CARE for my family so my PANIC response is triggered when they are late getting home.

You flipped it in your example where the PANIC call of the baby elephant triggered the CARE response in the rest of the herd.

We could probably find similar interactions between the other primary emotions.

Yes thanks.

I wanted to clarify that the CARE system and the PANIC/GRIEF system where different interconnected primary systems with different chemistries.

(I would not capitalize any of the feelings you experienced in your quote above)

CARE/attachment and attunement experiences

PANIC/GRIEF/separation distress experiences

Attachment and attunement can cure separation distress.



P

mildadhd
10-31-15, 03:43 PM
I don't understand the difference you're claiming.

Could you give examples of Unconditioned LUST and conditioned lust?


Unconditioned capitalized "LUST" is a term used to represent the primary homologous system.

Conditioned uncapitalized "lust"/horny/randy/courting/etc, are terms describing experienced secondary feelings of the primary LUST system.


P

Lunacie
10-31-15, 03:51 PM
Unconditioned capitalized "LUST" is a term used to represent the primary homologous system.

Conditioned uncapitalized "lust"/horny/randy/courting/etc, are terms describing experienced secondary feelings of the primary LUST system.


P

Well that makes it clear as .... mud.

So frustrated.

mildadhd
10-31-15, 04:14 PM
Well that makes it clear as .... mud.

So frustrated.

We would not feel angry/frustrated/irritated/etc without a RAGE system

RAGE/anger


P

Little Missy
10-31-15, 04:18 PM
oh yeah, but is it RAGE or rage?

daveddd
10-31-15, 04:19 PM
We would not feel angry/frustrated/irritated/etc without a RAGE system

RAGE/anger


P

Can u give me a quick run down of the bodily/sensory systems involved in the visceral RAGE system

Lunacie
10-31-15, 04:19 PM
We would not feel angry/frustrated/irritated/etc without a RAGE system

RAGE/anger


P

You are not explaining very well.

How is my feeling frustrated part of the RAGE system, but my feeling lust is not part of the LUST system?

Little Missy
10-31-15, 04:20 PM
You are not explaining very well.

How is my feeling frustrated part of the RAGE system, but my feeling lust is not part of the LUST system?

Would that be a raging lust or LUSTING RAGE?

Lunacie
10-31-15, 04:30 PM
Would that be a raging lust or LUSTING RAGE?

I thought I'd give Peri one more chance to explain before throwing in the towel and making fun of the topic.

Clearly you've already reached your frustration (ANGER) level. ;)

mildadhd
10-31-15, 04:31 PM
You are not explaining very well.

How is my feeling frustrated part of the RAGE system, but my feeling lust is not part of the LUST system?

Experiencing feelings of lust does require the primary LUST system.



P

midnightstar
10-31-15, 04:34 PM
Peripheral can you explain what you mean in terms everyone can understand? I'm just not getting any of this at all :grouphug:

daveddd
10-31-15, 04:36 PM
i know people with ADHD have anger issues

i wonder in medical disorders where the RAGE system is comprimised can that affect it

like connective tissue dysplasia in hearts in fragile x and ehlers danlos syndrome

the physical RAGE system is comprimised , leading to an enhaced or dysfunctional response to anger, having a role in the over 90% ADHD rate in both disorders

mildadhd
10-31-15, 04:43 PM
Peripheral can you explain what you mean in terms everyone can understand? I'm just not getting any of this at all :grouphug:

We need emotional systems to experience emotional feelings.

We are born with 7 emotional systems.



P

Lunacie
10-31-15, 04:55 PM
Experiencing feelings of lust does require the primary LUST system.



P

But earlier when I described feelings of lust, you said it was not correct to capitalize LUST.

Whatever the difference is, I'm not understanding. :confused:

TheChemicals
10-31-15, 05:10 PM
Aww i thought this was a Simple thread but turned out to be all fancy smart and fancy shmancy terminology too.

mildadhd
10-31-15, 05:12 PM
Lunacie

The lust feeling comes from the LUST system.

There are a diversity of terms to describe feelings that come from the LUST system.

Horny, randy, in-heat, lust, etc....

To distinguish between the homologous primary emotional system and the diversity of terms to describe secondary feelings associated with the system, we capitalize the homologous primary emotional system.




P

TheChemicals
10-31-15, 05:17 PM
Ok now im interested again.

Lunacie
10-31-15, 05:18 PM
Lunacie

The lust feeling comes from the LUST system.

There are a diversity of terms to describe feelings that come from the LUST system.

Horny, randy, in-heat, lust, etc....

To distinguish between the homologous primary emotional systems and the feelings associated with theses systems, we capitalize the primary emotional system.


If the secondary emotional system actually IS the feelings we have, then what is the primary emotional system?
.







P

Are you saying that the primary emotional system doesn't have feelings?


Can you explain (simply) the difference between the primary emotional system and the secondary emotional system?

midnightstar
10-31-15, 05:20 PM
Are you saying that the primary emotional system doesn't have feelings?


Can you explain (simply) the difference between the primary emotional system and the secondary emotional system?

In a way everyone can understand? Imagine you're explaining it to a child (I'm not calling any members here a child!) :grouphug:

Lunacie
10-31-15, 05:23 PM
If the secondary emotional system is the same things as feelings ...

can you explain very simply what the primary emotional system is?

mildadhd
10-31-15, 06:20 PM
If the secondary emotional system is the same things as feelings ...

can you explain very simply what the primary emotional system is?


Primary emotion systems (originating in the brain stem) are the sources of our raw emotional behaviors, we are all born with.





P

midnightstar
10-31-15, 06:25 PM
Primary emotion systems (originating in the brain stem) are the sources of our raw emotional behaviors we are all born with.





P

So what are the secondary ones then? :confused:

Lunacie
10-31-15, 06:27 PM
Primary emotion systems (originating in the brain stem) are the sources of our raw emotional behaviors, we are all born with.





P

If I understand that (not sure I do) how are secondary emotions different than raw emotions?

namazu
10-31-15, 06:27 PM
Primary emotion systems originating in the brain stem are the sources of the raw emotional behaviors all people are born with.
I'm having trouble keeping straight the ideas of a "primary emotion" or a "raw emotional behavior" (like those from the primary emotion systems) vs. a "feeling" (from the secondary or tertiary level).

What kinds of signals come from the brainstem, and what kinds of "raw emotional behaviors" occur in humans as a result?

Could you give some examples of "raw emotional behavior" associated with PANIC/GRIEF in humans, and then some examples of feelings and/or behaviors associated with secondary panic/grief, for example?

(I don't think I fully understand the difference between the levels that Panksepp talks about, and some examples of what happens at each level would help.)

daveddd
10-31-15, 06:29 PM
Primary emotion systems (originating in the brain stem) are the sources of our raw emotional behaviors, we are all born with.





P

Well they originate in the brain stem and cause different bodily system reactions

I'm not familiar with the exacts. It's why I asked

But a bird may experience fear and fly away immediately. Primary reaction

We can think about and symbolize our primary response. Secondary.

mildadhd
10-31-15, 06:38 PM
So what are the secondary ones then? :confused:


Our raw primary emotions + individual experiences = secondary feelings

(Layhuman)


P

Lunacie
10-31-15, 06:43 PM
As many times as I've googled for primary and secondary emotions, most of what has popped up has been confusing.

This is the first time this page showed up. It looks much more helpful. http://changingminds.org/explanations/emotions/primary_secondary.htm

A useful notion in understanding how we feel is that of primary and secondary emotions.

Primary emotions
What is felt first
Primary emotions are those that we feel first, as a first response to a situation. Thus, if we are threatened, we may feel fear. When we hear of a death, we may feel sadness. They are unthinking, instinctive responses that we have. We will typically see these in animals also, which confirms our suspicion that they have an evolutionary basis.

Typical primary emotions include fear, anger, sadness and happiness (although it is worth noting that these can also be felt as secondary emotions).

Often transient
The problem sometimes with primary emotions is that they disappear as fast as they appear. Their replacement by secondary emotions complicates the situation, making it difficult to understand what is really going on.

Secondary emotions
What is felt next
Secondary emotions appear after primary emotions. They may be caused directly by them, for example where the fear of a threat turns to anger that fuels the body for a fight reaction. They may also come from more complex chains of thinking.

Simple or mixed feelings
Secondary emotions may be simple feelings or may be a mix as more emotions join the fray. Thus news of a wartime victory may start with feelings of joy, but then get tinged with sadness for the loss of life.

So it really IS very confusing, especially since the same terms can often be used to describe both states, primary and secondary.

daveddd
10-31-15, 06:45 PM
One area people with ADHD have problems in. Is inhibiting primary emotion

By the time they realize and think about (or regulate) the primary affect it can have already had consequence

Barkley refers to this as separation of affect. I believe he got the original idea from bronowski

mildadhd
10-31-15, 06:54 PM
As many times as I've googled for primary and secondary emotions, most of what has popped up has been confusing.

This is the first time this page showed up. It looks much more helpful. http://changingminds.org/explanations/emotions/primary_secondary.htm



So it really IS very confusing, especially since the same terms can often be used to describe both states, primary and secondary.

That is partly why capitalizing the 7 homologous unconditioned primary emotional response systems originating in the brain stem is so important.

When lower brain areas interact with high brain areas, the diversity of emotional experiences become impossible to prove, without considering the raw emotional systems they originated from.




P

daveddd
10-31-15, 07:09 PM
http://changingminds.org/explanations/emotions/basic%20emotions.htm


here is a decent page of

primary
secondary and tertiary emotions from different researchers

daveddd
10-31-15, 07:15 PM
or in a fun chart

plutchiks wheel...of ......emotion!!


https://www.google.com/search?q=plutchik's+wheel+of+emotion&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&imgil=kZNzbm2Hi0IFOM%253A%253B3NvDskJA7Z-xtM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.fractal.org%2 5252FBewustzijns-Besturings-Model%25252FNature-of-emotions.htm&source=iu&pf=m&fir=kZNzbm2Hi0IFOM%253A%252C3NvDskJA7Z-xtM%252C_&biw=1083&bih=906&usg=__-gKhNVue2Mba-AbxXHIU19-Q6kU%3D&ved=0CC4QyjdqFQoTCMSHv_nq7cgCFRRRYwodGooNNQ&ei=-Eo1VsSrBJSijQOalLaoAw#imgrc=_Gx-OmaiVi6z2M%3A&usg=__-gKhNVue2Mba-AbxXHIU19-Q6kU%3D

daveddd
10-31-15, 07:20 PM
i believe 3rd level tertiary emotions are your experienced based learned

social anxiety, excessive worry

just a couple generic examples

mildadhd
10-31-15, 07:22 PM
Daveddd

The brain research by Prof Panksepp has evolved since 1982.

It's Prof Panksepp who first recommends capitalizing the 7 raw primary emotional systems, I am describing in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65e2qScV_K8





P

Lunacie
10-31-15, 07:27 PM
http://changingminds.org/explanations/emotions/basic%20emotions.htm


here is a decent page of

primary
secondary and tertiary emotions from different researchers

The researchers do not agree on how many primary emotions there are.

And for secondary and tertiary emotions, it's just word soup. It's just going through the thesaurus.

It doesn't actually explain anything, does it?

daveddd
10-31-15, 07:31 PM
The researchers do not agree on how many primary emotions there are.

And for secondary and tertiary emotions, it's just word soup. It's just going through the thesaurus.

It doesn't actually explain anything, does it?

thats the hard part ive found

although panskepp is definitely the most cited in this type of work

the primary emotions are generally similar

its what the animals have, its the somatic reaction , the "blood boiling" accelareted heart rate , and so on

primary emotions are generally talking about the sensory/visceral experience in emotion that it present at birth

the better your emotional regulation , the less trace of the primary bodily reaction there will be

daveddd
10-31-15, 07:37 PM
secondary is the transformation of the somatic primary response to cognition

fear no longer is limited to fight or flight or freeze as the FEAR/TERROR primary, you can think about, , maybe certain visualations occur , you can regulate through self talk or other metheds to control your response

then the third level i mentioned above

TheChemicals
10-31-15, 07:39 PM
Fear and terror triggers my primary LUST system

mildadhd
10-31-15, 07:42 PM
The researchers do not agree on how many primary emotions there are.

And for secondary and tertiary emotions, it's just word soup. It's just going through the thesaurus.

It doesn't actually explain anything, does it?

Prof Panksepp and Prof Grandin are both brain researchers.

They both recommend capitalizing primary emotional response systems.

They both provide strong biological evidence to back up their observations.

Not just observations.

I would be interested in knowing all researchers who consider these topics with strong biology data, to back up their observations.


P

mildadhd
10-31-15, 07:52 PM
Daveddd

I am sorry if it appears I am avoiding discussing more complex secondary level (learning and memories) and tertiary level (awareness and self regulation)

In this thread I am trying to avoid more complex topics.

I am really interested in discussing more complex topics in the future.

A good understanding of how secondary and tertiary levels work requires understanding primary unconditioned emotional response systems first.



P

Lunacie
10-31-15, 07:54 PM
thats the hard part ive found

although panskepp is definitely the most cited in this type of work

the primary emotions are generally similar

its what the animals have, its the somatic reaction , the "blood boiling" accelareted heart rate , and so on

primary emotions are generally talking about the sensory/visceral experience in emotion that it present at birth

the better your emotional regulation , the less trace of the primary bodily reaction there will be

And maybe that's the reason that some of us are having such a hard time distinguishing between primary, secondary and tertiary emotions ...

because we have adhd our emotional regulation is disordered, delayed, just plain sucks.

mildadhd
10-31-15, 08:04 PM
And maybe that's the reason that some of us are having such a hard time distinguishing between primary, secondary and tertiary emotions ...

because we have adhd our emotional regulation is disordered, delayed, just plain sucks.

I have ADHD.

So I don't think ADHD is the issue.

I would recommend not trying to hard, but simply include 7 primary emotional-affective response systems, along with secondary (learning and memory) and tertiary (awareness and self-regulation) levels of brain control, and fill in the blanks at a pace you feel comfortable with.



P

daveddd
10-31-15, 08:08 PM
And maybe that's the reason that some of us are having such a hard time distinguishing between primary, secondary and tertiary emotions ...

because we have adhd our emotional regulation is disordered, delayed, just plain sucks.

That makes perfect sense

At one point I experienced emotions only as a sensation

daveddd
10-31-15, 08:09 PM
I have ADHD.

So I don't think ADHD is the issue.

I would recommend not trying to hard, but simply include primary emotional-affective response systems, long with secondary (learning and memory) and tertiary (awareness and self-regulation) levels of brain control, and fill in the blanks at a pace you are comfortable with.



P

Learning may be hard when your actual emotional systems blend together


Not in a logical sense. But a perspective based identification

namazu
10-31-15, 08:19 PM
I suspect I would find this easier to wrap my head around if the responses that Panksepp and Grandin call "primary emotional responses" and capitalize were instead called "instincts" or "instinctive responses", and if the word "emotions" were reserved for secondary or tertiary responses.

Somehow, I guess "emotion" and "feeling" are pretty inextricably linked in my mind, and if something is an instinctual physical response without any feelings attached (at least, until we start having experiences that combine with the primary systems to give rise to the secondary/tertiary things we call feelings), then I have trouble thinking of it as an emotion.

I'm not criticizing Panksepp or Grandin for using the terms they use, just explaining part of the reason I think this is hard for me.

Well, that, and that it seems like there are feedback loops and other complications that make it really hard to draw clear lines and separate the systems.

daveddd
10-31-15, 08:33 PM
I suspect I would find this easier to wrap my head around if the responses that Panksepp and Grandin call "primary emotional responses" and capitalize were instead called "instincts" or "instinctive responses", and if the word "emotions" were reserved for secondary or tertiary responses.

Somehow, I guess "emotion" and "feeling" are pretty inextricably linked in my mind, and if something is an instinctual physical response without any feelings attached (at least, until we start having experiences that combine with the primary systems to give rise to the secondary/tertiary things we call feelings), then I have trouble thinking of it as an emotion.

I'm not criticizing Panksepp or Grandin for using the terms they use, just explaining part of the reason I think this is hard for me.

Well, that, and that it seems like there are feedback loops and other complications that make it really hard to draw clear lines and separate the systems.


Like insticual drive-ID Ego. Super ego

mildadhd
10-31-15, 09:14 PM
I suspect I would find this easier to wrap my head around if the responses that Panksepp and Grandin call "primary emotional responses" and capitalize were instead called "instincts" or "instinctive responses", and if the word "emotions" were reserved for secondary or tertiary responses.

Somehow, I guess "emotion" and "feeling" are pretty inextricably linked in my mind, and if something is an instinctual physical response without any feelings attached (at least, until we start having experiences that combine with the primary systems to give rise to the secondary/tertiary things we call feelings), then I have trouble thinking of it as an emotion.

I'm not criticizing Panksepp or Grandin for using the terms they use, just explaining part of the reason I think this is hard for me.

Well, that, and that it seems like there are feedback loops and other complications that make it really hard to draw clear lines and separate the systems.

Thanks

I am not sure the experts would disagree with you, my layhuman translations may be the problem.

Primary affects?




P

Delphine
10-31-15, 09:20 PM
Why do people post about their feelings, but are not interested in learning about the biology of their feelings?

P

Okay.... don't mean to be devil's advocate in the middle of all this highly intelligent and informative understanding and shared material....

.. yet...

There are 3 parts I see and wonder about (forgive me if I'm being too simplistic for this thread)

1.) the posting about feelings (venting, expressing, sharing) - (in isolation, perhaps sparking original question)

2.) the intelligent, researched and informed explanation and understanding of them which is brilliantly shared in many of the replies

3)....??? ("?"'s cos this is the part I'm wondering about).....
?The displacing of/ or distancing from/ or intellectualising of those feelings by getting enthralled by the mental understanding of those feelings?

Back story for this question..... I've been working with a (Eugene Gendlin based) therapist who's been calling me on becoming too intrigued by the intellectual, mental components of my own raw/ or primal emotional responses before really taking time to feel them fully and find the intuitive lead that that "intelligence" is prompting.

This is a genuine question, and not intended to negate or invalidate or lessen any of the incredible insights I've been reading in this thread.

I'm truly fascinated with the information you've all been sharing.

I hope none of you take this post as negative input.

I'm just trying to find the place where the curiosity and intrigue with the biological information and research of the mind meets and dovetails with 'resting with the feeling and the intuitive intelligence from within that those feelings have to offer us'

Anyone know what I mean? I think there's space for both, and learning from both - maybe left/right brain information and balance?

I hope someone gets this question. I fear it's rather clumsily posed but it's the best I can do right now.

stef
11-01-15, 04:25 AM
Delphine, not at all, I have the same question regarding 3, myself but I wasnt sure how to word it.

daveddd
11-01-15, 10:09 AM
Okay.... don't mean to be devil's advocate in the middle of all this highly intelligent and informative understanding and shared material....

.. yet...

There are 3 parts I see and wonder about (forgive me if I'm being too simplistic for this thread)

1.) the posting about feelings (venting, expressing, sharing) - (in isolation, perhaps sparking original question)

2.) the intelligent, researched and informed explanation and understanding of them which is brilliantly shared in many of the replies

3)....??? ("?"'s cos this is the part I'm wondering about).....
?The displacing of/ or distancing from/ or intellectualising of those feelings by getting enthralled by the mental understanding of those feelings?

Back story for this question..... I've been working with a (Eugene Gendlin based) therapist who's been calling me on becoming too intrigued by the intellectual, mental components of my own raw/ or primal emotional responses before really taking time to feel them fully and find the intuitive lead that that "intelligence" is prompting.

This is a genuine question, and not intended to negate or invalidate or lessen any of the incredible insights I've been reading in this thread.

I'm truly fascinated with the information you've all been sharing.

I hope none of you take this post as negative input.

I'm just trying to find the place where the curiosity and intrigue with the biological information and research of the mind meets and dovetails with 'resting with the feeling and the intuitive intelligence from within that those feelings have to offer us'

Anyone know what I mean? I think there's space for both, and learning from both - maybe left/right brain information and balance?

I hope someone gets this question. I fear it's rather clumsily posed but it's the best I can do right now.

i think you stated it excellent

staying with the instictual drive emotions has been a mindfulness practice ive been using

mildadhd
11-01-15, 10:26 AM
3)....??? ("?"'s cos this is the part I'm wondering about).....
?The displacing of/ or distancing from/ or intellectualising of those feelings by getting enthralled by the mental understanding of those feelings?


(Vertical baldance)

Awareness of preverbal implicit consciousness and verbal explicit consciousness.





P

Delphine
11-01-15, 10:39 AM
...

staying with the instictual drive emotions has been a mindfulness practice ive been using

Me too! (Doing my best anyway.)

I've been finding that in learning how make a little time to 'stay with' the feeling - allowing it to be, observing it.... even when it is very intense - sooner or later the feeling relaxes in intensity, begins to release, and offers some intelligent insight (most times).

Whenever I get an intense negative feeling (anger, fear, despair, strong desire for the unattainable) - I do my best to give it space, simply stop and observe it, and see what nuggets of wisdom it might have to offer me once it relaxes a bit.

Intense feelings can separate us (me anyway) from other, more useful parts of our intelligence. Yet feelings are part of intelligence, if we give them time and space to breathe and allow them to point out to us what they are trying to get across.

For me, 'intense feelings' feel a bit like have jammed channels. The message can't get through.

Sometimes when we express a feeling (important as that is), we can get too caught up in the feeling (or the backstory) and increase the intensity or build too much momentum -
- Although sometimes expressing it can be enough to release it -

Intellectualising has been my personal way of running from my feelings (as my therapist keeps pointing out.) I love to do that.

Not always possible to do on the fly in daily life, but worth making space to give it a go later in the day.

:)Intense positive feelings, on the other hand, I simply enjoy while the going is good. :giggle:

Delphine
11-01-15, 10:49 AM
(Vertical baldance)

Awareness of preverbal implicit consciousness and verbal explicit consciousness.





P

How delicious it would be to be able to do both at the same time! :)

Fully stay with the feeling without running into coping mechanisms...

....while at the same time having a full understanding of what is going on biologically!

Anyone live their life from that lovely place? Or close enough? If so, I aspire to be you :grouphug:

mildadhd
11-01-15, 11:11 AM
How delicious it would be to be able to do both at the same time! :)

Fully stay with the feeling without running into coping mechanisms...

....while at the same time having a full understanding of what is going on biologically!

Anyone live their life from that lovely place? Or close enough? If so, I aspire to be you :grouphug:

"Science of PLAY/Joy" (paraphrasing Panksepp)




P

daveddd
11-01-15, 11:15 AM
How delicious it would be to be able to do both at the same time! :)

Fully stay with the feeling without running into coping mechanisms...

....while at the same time having a full understanding of what is going on biologically!

Anyone live their life from that lovely place? Or close enough? If so, I aspire to be you :grouphug:

staying with the primary emotion (instictual drive/ID) , observing it, naming it , is what takes it too secondary emotion (ego)

inteclectualizing is more of a blocking, then reasoning

if you can name it, you can tame it daniel seigel

Lunacie
11-01-15, 11:42 AM
"Science of PLAY/Joy" (paraphrasing Panksepp)




P

And ... ? What does that actually mean?

mildadhd
11-01-15, 12:21 PM
"Science of PLAY/Joy" (paraphrasing Panksepp)

P


And ... ? What does that actually mean?


Children play when they feel safe.

Supervised play promotes the development of the neocortex.

Especially supervised free play.

(Layhuman)




P

midnightstar
11-01-15, 12:27 PM
Children play when they feel safe.

Supervised play promotes the development of the neocortex.

(Especially supervised free play)

(Layhuman)


P

Neocortex ........... that's part of the brain, right? :scratch:

daveddd
11-01-15, 12:33 PM
Children play when they feel safe.

Supervised play promotes the development of the neocortex.

Especially supervised free play.

(Layhuman)




P

play is an early form of emotional regulation/expression?

https://books.google.com/books?id=4Rw5Fj7rIRMC&pg=PA4&dq=adept+use+of+language+and+symbolic+play&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMI3t-StNPvyAIVCXo-Ch0NLgB2#v=onepage&q=adept%20use%20of%20language%20and%20symbolic%20p lay&f=false


excellent book on emotion regulating play therapy for ADHD

mildadhd
11-01-15, 09:53 PM
Thanks for introducing me to Eugene Gendlin, PLAY emotion regulating therapy, etc..(Off the top of my head...feel free to add to the list of this thread topics to explore, more)

There is lots of posts discussions questions I would like to consider and discuss more next weekend.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nqRQ7PQFLM0

Bottom sunny edge and bottom "murky edge"

What is a neocortex?

Why do children play?

Do adults play?

What is instinctual unconditioned PLAY emotional-affective response system?

And the many other questions to fill in...

Have a nice week everyone.

Thanks

(I will try to focus and not focus better)

P

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FY2KjqC5Fkw

daveddd
11-02-15, 06:38 PM
Thanks for introducing me to Eugene Gendlin, PLAY emotion regulating therapy, etc..(Off the top of my head...feel free to add to the list of this thread topics to explore, more)

There is lots of posts discussions questions I would like to consider and discuss more next weekend.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nqRQ7PQFLM0

Bottom sunny edge and bottom "murky edge"

What is a neocortex?

Why do children play?

Do adults play?

What is instinctual unconditioned PLAY emotional-affective response system?

And the many other questions to fill in...

Have a nice week everyone.

Thanks

(I will try to focus and not focus better)

P

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FY2KjqC5Fkw

thought that one was on topic for you

Delphine
11-02-15, 06:49 PM
LOve Eugene Gendlin..... his approach changed my life! Long story.... but short version - turned around my deepest grief and despair!