View Full Version : Abusive behavior and its relationship (or lack thereof) to mental disorders.


daveddd
10-26-15, 06:53 PM
MOD NOTE: This is a discussion that was split off from a thread on Alternatives to "NT". (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172715)

I don't really ever intend to stop using NT (and "typical" isn't a myth).

I am not really comfortable with how far people push neurodivergent to mean just about anything they want.

Anyone can be an abuser, whether or not they have something diagnosable. Disbelieving someone's reports of abuse because they say that abuse was perpetrated by an NT is ridiculous. I've been abused by NTs, and I know many others who have been as well.

ok thats fair

i guess the people you consider typicle can be abusive

i just dont think sadistic and consistent abuse would be by some one who is typical

you are much more likely to be abused by someone with ADHD, bipolar or a PD according to research at least

unless they assign labels based off abuse

Fortune
10-26-15, 07:25 PM
ok thats fair

i guess the people you consider typicle can be abusive

i just dont think sadistic and consistent abuse would be by some one who is typical

This is why treating people like textbooks is terrible - because it leads one to wrong conclusions about how people are likely to behave. Having experienced consistent abuse from NTs, I can tell you that this is just not true. Having seen NT partners in the non-ADHD partner section describe abusive strategies they've used with their ADHD partners, I can see that it is more than just me who has experienced this. Seeing reports by others on this forum as well, and elsewhere.

you are much more likely to be abused by someone with ADHD, bipolar or a PD according to research at least

People with mental illness are much more likely to be victims than perpetrators.

daveddd
10-26-15, 07:35 PM
This is why treating people like textbooks is terrible - because it leads one to wrong conclusions about how people are likely to behave. Having experienced consistent abuse from NTs, I can tell you that this is just not true. Having seen NT partners in the non-ADHD partner section describe abusive strategies they've used with their ADHD partners, I can see that it is more than just me who has experienced this. Seeing reports by others on this forum as well, and elsewhere.

People with mental illness are much more likely to be victims than perpetrators.

ok, really all i meant is that someone who abuses someone consistently and sadistically is likely in need of psychiatric help

i see i am wrong

im sorry

Lunacie
10-26-15, 08:04 PM
ok, really all i meant is that someone who abuses someone consistently and sadistically is likely in need of psychiatric help

i see i am wrong

im sorry

I guess I don't know the DMV very well. How is bully-behavior classified?

When I do a google search, I only find how CBT can help the victims of bullies.

daveddd
10-26-15, 08:06 PM
I guess I don't know the DMV very well. How is bully-behavior classified?

When I do a google search, I only find how CBT can help the victims of bullies.

usually under conduct disorder or anti social disorder

disorders involving anger, lack of anger control and impulse control

again, that may be assigning labels due to a behavior

daveddd
10-26-15, 08:27 PM
ouch, i didnt really want a thread stating abusers must have a mental disorder

i just noticed "NTS" are often refered to as abusive, where what ive found (and im likely incorrect) is that most abusers arent of the "typical" mental health status

Kunga Dorji
10-29-15, 05:06 AM
There is a divergence between "NT" and "neuro-atypical" behaviours here.
Neither group understands the way in which our behaviours may be mis perceived by others of different thinking patterns.

The short answer-- watch the person you are talking to-- see if they relax, or look distressed as a result of their interaction with you.

That observation is important information- but you have to attend to the person you speak to.

Pilgrim
10-29-15, 05:19 AM
In my experience abusive behaviour emanates from people who think they can get away with it. NT or not. And in both cases it's atypical behaviour.

Also I think people with a mental problem are more on the receiving end. Why you've got to be your own advocate I guess.

sarahsweets
10-29-15, 09:01 AM
In my experience abusive behaviour emanates from people who think they can get away with it. NT or not. And in both cases it's atypical behaviour.

Also I think people with a mental problem are more on the receiving end. Why you've got to be your own advocate I guess.

Some people are just abusers-plain and simple. Trying to assign a mental health label as a means of explaining why people can be as*holes serves no real purpose. I dont care why they abused me, I just want it to f**king stop.

dvdnvwls
10-29-15, 01:29 PM
This is why treating people like textbooks is terrible - because it leads one to wrong conclusions about how people are likely to behave. Having experienced consistent abuse from NTs, I can tell you that this is just not true. Having seen NT partners in the non-ADHD partner section describe abusive strategies they've used with their ADHD partners, I can see that it is more than just me who has experienced this. Seeing reports by others on this forum as well, and elsewhere.

I agree that daveddd's post was insensitive and tending to treat people as if they are nothing but bundles of facts, which in our context is unhelpful and sure to hurt a lot of people.

Your response is unfortunately no better, because you are merely repeating factoids you've heard and dismissing real facts as if you had done all the research yourself to reach these conclusions. We all know you haven't. As is famously said, People with mental illness are much more likely to be victims than perpetrators.
I'm sure that what you've said is valid in the context of your own life, and perhaps the lives of a few friends. It goes no further than that.

It might be interesting to discuss this topic but the first two posts have given such a discouraging and invalid introduction that it might help for all to take a deep breath and start again.

Fuzzy12
10-29-15, 01:49 PM
Some people are just abusers-plain and simple. Trying to assign a mental health label as a means of explaining why people can be as*holes serves no real purpose. I dont care why they abused me, I just want it to f**king stop.

Sarah, I agree that if you are being abused your first priority would be to just make it stop but in a wider context I do think it's important to understand why people abuse..otherwise how could you ever prevent it from happening.

I don't believe that some people are just abusers and I doubt there's anything plain and simple about it. Also, If some people really are just plain abusers because that is how they are and always have been, wouldn't that point at a genetic cause for being abusive?

(Just to be clear that's not what I'm saying. I really don't know why some people are more abusive than others but I do think it's interesting and worth investigating the underlying root causes).

Lunacie
10-29-15, 02:07 PM
I agree that daveddd's post was insensitive and tending to treat people as if they are nothing but bundles of facts, which in our context is unhelpful and sure to hurt a lot of people.

Your response is unfortunately no better, because you are merely repeating factoids you've heard (or perhaps even ones you've invented) and dismissing real facts as if you had done all the research yourself to reach these conclusions. We all know you haven't. As is famously said, Not to put too fine a point on it, Fortune, it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you're posing as if you do. I'm sure that what you've said is valid in the tiny context of your own life, and perhaps the lives of a few friends. It goes no further than that.

It might be interesting to discuss this topic but the first two posts have given such a discouraging and invalid introduction that it might help for all to take a deep breath and start again.

Fortune is absolutely correct in saying that those with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence or abuse than to be perpetrators.

Myth: People with mental health problems are violent and unpredictable.

Fact: The vast majority of people with mental health problems are no more likely to be violent than anyone else. Most people with mental illness are not violent and only 3%-5% of violent acts can be attributed to individuals living with a serious mental illness. In fact, people with severe mental illnesses are over 10 times more likely to be victims of violent crime than the general population.

http://www.mentalhealth.gov/basics/myths-facts/

Lunacie
10-29-15, 02:15 PM
Sarah, I agree that if you are being abused your first priority would be to just make it stop but in a wider context I do think it's important to understand why people abuse..otherwise how could you ever prevent it from happening.

I don't believe that some people are just abusers and I doubt there's anything plain and simple about it. Also, If some people really are just plain abusers because that is how they are and always have been, wouldn't that point at a genetic cause for being abusive?

(Just to be clear that's not what I'm saying. I really don't know why some people are more abusive than others but I do think it's interesting and worth investigating the underlying root causes).

I guess it's a genetic fact that all offenders are young at some poin in their lives. ;)
(bolding below added by me)

Several general conclusions are supported by this brief overview. First, mental disorders are neither necessary, nor sufficient causes of violence. The major determinants of violence continue to be socio-demographic and socio-economic factors such as being young, male, and of lower socio-economic status.

Second, members of the public undoubtedly exaggerate both the strength of the relationship between major mental disorders and violence, as well as their own personal risk from the severely mentally ill. It is far more likely that people with a serious mental illness will be the victim of violence.

Third, substance abuse appears to be a major determinant of violence and this is true whether it occurs in the context of a concurrent mental illness or not.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

Fortune
10-29-15, 08:20 PM
I agree that daveddd's post was insensitive and tending to treat people as if they are nothing but bundles of facts, which in our context is unhelpful and sure to hurt a lot of people.

Your response is unfortunately no better, because you are merely repeating factoids you've heard and dismissing real facts as if you had done all the research yourself to reach these conclusions. We all know you haven't. As is famously said, I'm sure that what you've said is valid in the context of your own life, and perhaps the lives of a few friends. It goes no further than that.

I am not repeating factoids I've heard, nor am I dismissing anything I know to be a fact. I've actually researched the "mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrator" fact rather extensively. There's plenty of research to support it and you can just google that specific phrase and find a considerable amount of discussion.

This article refers to 21 separate studies that support this (http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/about-us/our-blog/69-no-state/2030-new-study-mentally-ill-are-often-targets-of-violence).

You're not telepathic, don't act like you can read my mind. Don't tell me what I am supposedly really thinking or what my motivations for saying something must be.

Abi
10-29-15, 08:22 PM
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Thanks :)

Fuzzy12
10-30-15, 09:44 AM
I guess it's a genetic fact that all offenders are young at some poin in their lives. ;)
(bolding below added by me)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

Again, I'm not saying there is a genetic basis. I just said that a statement that claims that abusers are just abusers and have always been that way sounds like saying they were born that way.

Either way, my point was really that I totally disagree with the notion that it doesn't matter why abusers abuse or that it's not important to investigate possible reasons and possible solutions. The text you quoted Lunacie, just confirms that.

There seems to be this prevalent belief that when people do terrible things, the best thing to do is to distance yourself from them as much as possible by saying that "normal" or in this case "normal" people with mental health disorders, basically people like you and me, would never ever do such a thing and that by even conceding that there might be factors why they act the way they act or why they became the way they are, we are condoning their actions or trivializing the suffering of their victims. An absolute and irrevocable condemnation, seems to be the most popular and the safest course of action.

I think, that's rubbish. I don't think any human is immune from being capable of being violent and abusive and those of us who aren't (or haven't been abusive so far) have got no reason to be proud of the fact or pat ourselves on the shoulder. Or judge those that are. We just got lucky that either our environment wasn't such that it fostered us learning to be abusive or we weren't born that way or most probably just both.

I don't know yet what it is or why but I do know that just condemning people as evil neither helps the victims, nor the abusers, nor does it prevent abuse happening in the future. Maybe all it does it make some people feel better thinking that they or someone like them could never ever do such a thing.

Luvmybully
10-30-15, 02:07 PM
disorders involving anger, lack of anger control and impulse control



My husband definitely has anger control issues, lack of impulse control and emotional dysregulation.

These combos can certainly lead to some EXPLOSIVE, violent, incidences.

I can see how someone that does not fully comprehend just how much adhd is involved could view him as abusive. It is why I never really talked about it, even here. Because as has been noted, even when amongst others that share a diagnosis, there is a vast range of symptoms, and impairments, and abilities.

But, for me, the key is where that anger is DIRECTED. It is never at a person. It is never threatening to anyone. Just inanimate objects.

Some people though, when witness to such violent emotion, can not separate themselves from the situation. It is so stressful and so frightening and so disturbing to them, that these feelings are now projected onto the one having the meltdown.

I have learned to separate myself. I realized it was not ME that was the object of all his emotion. And, that he REALLY, truly, can not 100% control it.

As he gets older, the episodes are less and less frequent. They are now private, for him. He goes somewhere to be alone, and I leave him alone.

But I can seriously understand how someone could feel very threatened and unsafe in the midst of that level of out-of-control.

daveddd
10-31-15, 08:38 AM
My husband definitely has anger control issues, lack of impulse control and emotional dysregulation.

These combos can certainly lead to some EXPLOSIVE, violent, incidences.

I can see how someone that does not fully comprehend just how much adhd is involved could view him as abusive. It is why I never really talked about it, even here. Because as has been noted, even when amongst others that share a diagnosis, there is a vast range of symptoms, and impairments, and abilities.

But, for me, the key is where that anger is DIRECTED. It is never at a person. It is never threatening to anyone. Just inanimate objects.

Some people though, when witness to such violent emotion, can not separate themselves from the situation. It is so stressful and so frightening and so disturbing to them, that these feelings are now projected onto the one having the meltdown.

I have learned to separate myself. I realized it was not ME that was the object of all his emotion. And, that he REALLY, truly, can not 100% control it.

As he gets older, the episodes are less and less frequent. They are now private, for him. He goes somewhere to be alone, and I leave him alone.

But I can seriously understand how someone could feel very threatened and unsafe in the midst of that level of out-of-control.

thats excellent

i dont think everyone can control how they direct their impulsive anger so well

also, im not sure if abusers , are controlling their anger , or the person they are abusing is the object of their anger

daveddd
10-31-15, 08:43 AM
I guess it's a genetic fact that all offenders are young at some poin in their lives. ;)
(bolding below added by me)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

substance abuse is listed in the DSM

so the people cant control their anger, and cant control their substance intake

i wonder if a thorough evalation of emotional regulation was done



and barkley himself states, YES people with ADHD are more likely to be bullied, then he says they are also more likely to be bullies

i know of forum members who said they were abusive before treatment

daveddd
10-31-15, 08:49 AM
Some people are just abusers-plain and simple. Trying to assign a mental health label as a means of explaining why people can be as*holes serves no real purpose. I dont care why they abused me, I just want it to f**king stop.

i agree it doesnt matter


i think abuse should be punished, mental illness or not

i dont think that even if there is atypical wiring as a cause , that it can be or the person wants to be helped in all cases

i do think that a lot of people with who abuse feel remorse as soon as their anger subsides, those people are worth helping

Fortune
11-03-15, 03:53 AM
ok, really all i meant is that someone who abuses someone consistently and sadistically is likely in need of psychiatric help

i see i am wrong

im sorry

Thank you - and I apologize for coming down on you like I did.