Passion.

It is what guides us and keeps us moving in unchartered directions.

Free spirits, old hippies........nonconformists, neil YOung.

I am ADD... that's who I am.



*nothing much, just a thought

Only someone listening to music, drinking wine, and cruising the ADD forum would write such a silly thing.

What the heck is an ADD, anyway?
Is ADD a who, or an it, or a what.
Is it something you have, something you own, or something you are?

Is it positive or negative or none of the above??

Somebody please tell me, because I am confused.

Believe it or not, wine and music or not, this is a serious question that I ask with all sincerity.

What is your ADD? Are you ADD? If you know, will you share it with me?


I'm out of here............................... ...................... ........................Annie <3

garry writes so eloquntly about *being* ADD -- and chain also has so many positive things to say about our type.... i hope they have time to chime in here.

as for me. some days -- those low self-esteem crap kinda days -- i feel like having ADD is some kinda curse. and i don't like who i am and am sure that if i could only change that i'd feel better and *be* a better person....

thankfully, those days are few in number (and becoming fewer) and when they come, i try to remember to just hang in there because "this to shall pass"

on a tangent, i just have to add that i *love* neil young. sometimes i have a "cripple creek ferry" kind of day (i don't know why this feels like a happy song to me... until moments ago when i looked up the lyrics, i thought he was singing about a fariy, so that might have something to do with it.... :rolleyes: ), sometimes it's a "don't let it bring you down" kind of day.

on the days when i like who i am i identify myself as an ADDer. i am ADD. < that's a direct homage to garry, btw.

(((((hugs)))), annie. i've a feeling you need one.

take care,

wheezie

Passion.

It is what guides us and keeps us moving in unchartered directions.

Free spirits, old hippies........nonconformists, neil YOung.

I am ADD... that's who I am.



*nothing much, just a thoughtThat's a good thought... I've always considered myself to be a 70s hippie most of my adult life. I can relate :D

Hey i am the cinnamon girl Neil Young sang about LOL

I am an old hippy also...i had the ''chance'' to live in a commune in the early 80's for a few months....it was a great experience. Would i want my kids to live it or would i do it again. No way, i am just not that much of a social person anymore.

I love Neil Young :)

My personal crisis with regards to recent dx'd ADD is how to integrate this into my life and how to understand it's meaning and purpose. How do I redefine who I am and how I feel about it all.

Just moving through the process of everyday life is complicated enough, yet when a new aspect of personality is added on and at a later date, understanding of self becomes so much more blurred and unclear.

And so, even if my self esteem is fairly intact, I must still re-evaluate who I am, because it is ever changing. As I do this I need to shed some older undrstandings of me. I need to let them all go, grieve the loss and shuffle it all about...

I have been placed on a new foundation. It is my task to rebuild with the tools and the new knowledge which I have about myself. We can help you because there are many qualified builders at the forums.

The meds have helped, as well as the support and research and learning. Most of all, over time, I am beginning to understand.

This is a life long process. It can become time comsuming and messy and overwhelming and frustrating and confusing. a time for questions. And it is ok. Acknowledging that I have feelings around this is ok, even if it hurts, it is after all the course that we can take together.

Present are many knowing friends. Just keep asking. I do. I'm sure that I always will.

and a quiet hug to you.

wow, blue. that was beautifully written!

it's not just as simple as saying "low self-esteem", though that seems to be a big part of it for me.

not only do i need to learn that it's o.k. to be me, i need to know who i think i am. some days i like that person, some days i'm not so sure.

and the lose of the old self - the old vision of "wheezie" - i had to get through the five steps of grieving to me into an acceptance that the old me is gone.

i'm reading a book by elizabeth kubler-ross david kessler titled, Life lessons : two experts on death and dying teach us about the mysteries of life and living . she just re-iterated the 5 steps in mourning and wrote about small losses (i lost my keys) and big losses (parent's death). each type of loss follows the same steps....

i don't want to go off on to big of a tangent on Annie.... but, it's loosely releveant, i think....

we wonder who we are, how we fit in, does this new puzzle piece (ADHD) fit, does this change who we are, is this new piece a good thing or a bad thing.... etc.

here's a good post on the steps ADDers go through when finding out their diagnosis.... http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1857

shifting paradigms,

wheezie

and as I experience my own personal paradigm shift, I must never let go of the old me. No that me is always there, she just has a different perspective; an amendment has been added. IMO, shift is not change but rather a view with new information. An enhancment. ;)

There are days when I am overwhelmed about a crisis point. Yet I am able to get through or know that it is ok because my self esteem is there. It hasn't failed me or gone away, it is just in momentaty hiding. It can be renewed though, by just giving it respectful time. and believing in her...

The ADDed ADD is neither bad nor good. I understand that it just is, it must be what it is... My life motto. If I don't see that then the rest of my tragedy will have no meaning.

Only someone listening to music, drinking wine, and cruising the ADD forum would write such a silly thing.

What the heck is an ADD, anyway?
Is ADD a who, or an it, or a what.
Is it something you have, something you own, or something you are?

Is it positive or negative or none of the above??

Somebody please tell me, because I am confused.

Believe it or not, wine and music or not, this is a serious question that I ask with all sincerity.

What is your ADD? Are you ADD? If you know, will you share it with me?


I'm out of here............................... ...................... ........................Annie <3 (((((((((((((((Annie))))))))))))))))) I feel your pain & confusion *hug* I'm struggling with the same issues :( At this point, I'm not sure how much of me is me anymore either ((((((((((((((((((((((Annie)))))))))))))))))))))))

I am going to only state what I am.........

I also am, an Old Hippy from the late 60's and and early 70's

That speaks for itself ...................
____________________________

I do not Have ADD

I do not have a disease

I am ADD


I am

Addaptable

Directed

Determined

____________________________
If you also remember " The Moody Blues"

I forget which song it was, but


The jist of it was


I Think ,

Therfore I AM

I Think......................

____________________________

We are what we are becuase we were born the way we are........

We are what we were meant to be

There is nothing wrong with us

It is the rest of society that has a problem when they can not accept people for what they are and always have to try and change them to be more like them...........................

Well screw them ......
and the horse they rode in on........

if they cant take me for what I am then it is there loss,

not mine

my 2 Can-ADD-ian cents worth

Kay's two rules are a great place to start, and a pretty good clue, too:

We're never more dangerous than when we think it's OK to beat ourselves up;

Always look for the benevolent view, especially of yourself.


(Remember, Neil Young was the guy that said "Even Richard Nixon has a soul." If you can think that way, you won't be tearing yourself apart too often.)


Chain's experiential view of our brains and minds is a good way to begin to grasp the paradigm shift that Deeperblue refers to, but we've found that's not enough. The shift has to transcend the idea of paradigms, blossoming into a single, monolithic model of everything you ever were or will be, and everything that is.

In purely practical terms, having/being AD/HD is almost certainly due to a small, specific change in our brains (presumably due to a small shift in brain chemistry) that allows us to simultaneously keep more threads of awareness afloat than ordinary ol' humans of several thousand years ago.

That ability allows us to form a subtly different kind of logical structure in our minds to store and analyze information. During childhood, if we tend to do that and do it for a long enough time, we 'get' AD/HD. If we continue to think in the old established patterns, we don't 'get' it, and we grow up (relatively) normal.

The older logical structures are isolated 'lumps' of knowledge, and a paradigm shift describes moving from one lump to another. We ADDers don't have paradigm shifts; we integrate all of what we know about everything into one giant web based on the new logical structure.

So we grow unable to tolerate someone acting differently at work than at home, while that intolerance seems dangerous to those who see no relationship between the two different contexts.

Our way of understanding the AD/HD brain is more complicated (and less immediately compelling) than Chain's experientially based models. But the differentiation between the isolated universe of paradigms and the wide open world of the fully developed AD/HD mind requires the slightly more complex context.

We are describing the same things, of course, and sooner or later the desire for a more complete understanding carries everyone over the edge and into the air to soar.

Having someone to share the experience with makes a difference, too, and here SB_UK has contributed the wonderful concept of the 'intimately converged web'.

When we form the webs that combine all of our paradigms into one huge meta-paradigm (by definition, a not-paradigm), the resulting web of stored knowledge represents our model of all there is, the universe in which we experience being.

If my universe was too different from yours, we wouldn't be able to speak and understand each other. So they must converge in some fashion on (at least) similar forms, and by some process the convergence must be maintained.

But two people that are close and constant companions might find that their webs converge more closely than that casual convergence. Once the process begins, it accelerates until there isn't enough room to slide a playing card between them, figuratively speaking.

This is a special kind of closeness reserved only for ADDers, and we think it's what the future holds for the entire species. In fact, since the changes in our brains are universal, any two people that meet and start to grow closer will feel themselves pulled this way.

We believe that's the reason for the relatively large number of relationship questions here and in other forums. In a sense, any ADDer/non-ADDer couple is in a tug of war, and in the end they're likely to find themselves on the same side, wondering who they were pulling against.


It wasn't Neil Young, you can be sure of that…

--Tom and Kay

took me 4 times reading your post stabile but I finally figured out what your saying

Stabile, I have just briefly read your post and my immediate response is that I see the world though my ADHD filter. And my filters are constantly changing based on material which I gather. It seems to me that I am absorbing new and evolving concepts to inform my course--Or my world view. I am with the same brain structure yet I am seeing the world with the knowlede and understanding which I gain about my new personal theoy about these structures. Things seems to appear different as I progress through the dynamic landscape. This is a beginning idea and I am interested to learn and understand more as I grow and proceed forward.

and I am listening to Heart of Gold (in my mind) I've been a miner for a heart of gold....and I'm getting old. lol later

The title caught my eye "old hippies and neil young/I am ADD"

1) Wish I'd known then that the answer to "what's wrong with you?" Was 3 letters- ADD.

2) The only Neil Young song I remember is "The needle & the damage done" I may not remember the day of the week but I can remember every word to that song. I guess there is something about looking someone in the eye that you Love & watching helplessly....as their Life, Soul & Spirit are slowly drained out of them.

3) I'm 51 so I do consider myself an "old hippie"
BlessedLady

took me 4 times reading your post stabile but I finally figured out what your saying
Yeah, sorry, we're pretty bad at that right now.

I'm not sure what it is, but we're having problems on two (apparently) different fronts, discussing this sort of thing (roughly speaking, the structure of knowledge in the context of neural behavior and the mind), and discussing ideas related to mating behavior.

If we run into difficulty with that last one nobody is very surprised. But this subject seems to have a built in 'left turn' for many people that may be due to a similar underlying mechanism in our brains.

It doesn't help that we’ve been at it so long that what we write sometimes sounds like we're experts on some deeply twisted scientific theory.

It just ain't so. Any ADDer has direct access to these ideas, really direct, as in take a look at your universe and it's right there in front of your nose, just as it always has been.

In a way, this is really down-home dirt-simple stuff. The language we're sometimes forced to use might make it seem unapproachable, but it's really not.

…my immediate response is that I see the world though my ADHD filter. And my filters are constantly changing based on material which I gather. It seems to me that I am absorbing new and evolving concepts to inform my course--Or my world view. I am with the same brain structure yet I am seeing the world with the knowledge and understanding which I gain about my new personal theory about these structures. Things seem to appear different as I progress through the dynamic landscape…
Yup, that's it exactly. Inside your head, you're forming a literal web-like structure of models of various aspects of your world. Out of neurons. It's what neurons do, their only trick, and it’s all we’ve got to explain all that there is.

Each model is an element linked into the whole by its inherent relationships to other elements, elements for which it's a sub-element, and elements that are in turn sub-elements to the model's structure.

We look at something, an object or event or other abstract element of our moment-by-moment perception of the world in which we’re immersed, and we try to understand it. We look for reasons, or relationships, or any pattern in what we see that makes sense of it in the context of our personal universe.

And we weave that into the whole, the master pattern of all we know and understand, what we know of but don't yet understand, and what we suspect might be out there, waiting to be understood.

We might see some element twenty times, and each time perceive some additional depth of detail that adds to our understanding in a subtle way, modifying the stored pattern that we associate with that element.

And that subtle change perturbs the entire network; every element is related to every other element in some way, and so every change, regardless of how subtle, ripples through the entire context of our existence and being.

That's what constitutes the 'AD/HD filter'. It's an odd kind of negative definition; we feel like our experience of reality is somehow restricted, limited by comparison to that which normals feel free to frolic in. And in a very real sense, it is: by necessity, our web is sparse, because we can't imagine the possibility of two different but similar models of a thing.

Once we home in on a model (which is understanding a thing), other similar models are wrong; if they weren't, we would have chosen that one instead. So our universe seems limited, mainly by comparison to what normals see, but it's an illusion.

Consider the model a normal's mind holds for any particular thing: a singular lump consisting of every element that seems to belong, all bundled up in one chunk.

That single chunk is separate from every other in many important ways. It needs its own copy of every element, regardless of whether that element has been seen before or how common it might be. The implication is that our method is more efficient, while the normal's way allows every copy of a particular element to be slightly (or even grossly) different.

I'll take the ADDer method any time. A normal doesn't expand his/her understanding of their universe at all when they recreate their model of come common element. In addition, the size of a chunk can rapidly get too large to be useful for any ordinary purpose.

No chunk can be very detailed and also very general; in the classical model of knowledge, one has to focus on a particularly narrow aspect of a subject in order to achieve understanding in detail. That leads to more isolation, and also the cultural expectation of isolation of any deep understanding.

By comparison, we ADDers have an ever more complex and ever more general model of our universe, and we’re constantly reinforcing and enriching the associations that weave it onto a monolithic whole. An increasingly efficient monolithic whole, to boot.

That doesn't sound like a restriction to me, even though it can feel like it if we take a moment to appreciate the normal's view. (They do complain about exactly this, a lot.)

It helps to think of the 'space' in which the process of understanding takes place: we can imagine an infinite universe of all possible knowledge, filled with potential models, each only slightly different from its neighbors.

We ADDers 'choose' the most appropriate model, and call it understanding; in the process, we demote all nearby models from 'possible' to 'incorrect'.

And since all models are interrelated we've influenced the rest of the infinite space of possible models, because the relationships between models must be as sensible as the models themselves.

So for us, choosing any particular model has a slight effect on the probability that any other model might be correct, through every other part of the space. That means even parts we've not yet visited, so once we start to get a pretty solid web going, we can't help but act (occasionally, at least) as if we somehow already understand new things before we even get a good look at them.

By comparison, a normal's 'chunk' of knowledge can sit anywhere it wants, regardless of what other chunks might be like. So it's possible that a normal might have a part of one of his models, perhaps the bit that represents the idea of correct behavior, that could be considerably different from the same bit in another chunk.

If you're Ken Lay, and the two chunks represent models of life at home and at work respectively, it's easy to understand how you might legitimately feel as if you hadn't done anything wrong. It's also easy to see that your family and neighbors might be convinced that you're the nicest guy going, and couldn't have done anything wrong.

The problem is that they're at least partly right, in a very real sense, and part of the curse of having/being AD/HD is seeing that contradiction as completely sensible. It doesn't excuse the behavior at all; in fact, it sharpens the focus on exactly how smarmy Ken Lay really is, because it removes the confusion of seeing him be a nice guy at home, with the family and neighbors.

Because of this, we think in terms of AD/HD 'giving' us a sort of enforced moral consistency, and there isn't anything that will get a normal's alarms going faster than the idea that you're sanctioning his/her behavior, even silently.

So: pull back to the big picture for a minute. We've taken the idea that neurons work in certain ways, applied that to how knowledge is represented in our minds, shown how that yields a different kind of model of our universe, which in turn suggests a connection to one particular common aspect of the ordinary experience if having/being AD/HD.

Many of us feel that aspect of our life experience is at least somewhat negative. Normals seem to pick us out for no reason that you could put your finger on, and subtly demand that we think more like them. They seem threatened by our presence; the silent working of our minds as we perceive our own universe somehow seems to represent a repudiation of their very existence.

And many times they respond in what seems to them an appropriate way, given the perceived threat. It's a lot easier to get by this sort of experience if you can understand it in a benevolent way, and there is no better way than seeing how our reality truly does differ from theirs.

Some filter, huh?


…This is a beginning idea and I am interested to learn and understand more as I grow and proceed forward…
I don't think there's a way to stop it. It just goes on by itself, and the further you go, the faster it gets.


…and I am listening to Heart of Gold (in my mind) I've been a miner for a heart of gold....and I'm getting old…
Funny thing about that; Neil Young always did get it, in that way.

A heart of gold is what we’re left with once we prune away the b******t. And that's just another way to describe the limiting effect of finding the one correct model for a thing and eliminating the others. So you tie the AD/HD filter to that in the exactly appropriate way.

Like I said, funny thing about that. And very cool. Art rules…

"Old man, take a look at my life
I'm a lot like you
Old man, take a look at my life
I'm a lot like you

I need someone to hold me the whole night through..."


Can you read between the lines? Does it take a glass of wine? Or maybe a coronita and a slice of lime?
Relationships.....what is real? Is ADD real? Is it beautiful? Is it ugly? Should we hold it and love it and take it home? Or should we throw it away.

Garbage. It's all garbage. Carried down the road in a garbage truck.

Oh, but flowers. Flowers grow. Nurtured, loved, and always seeking light.

How poetic and lovely.

Deception.....is it telling us the truth? Is ADD honest and pure?
Are you ADD. Is that who you are?
Reality.......are we sure. Are we human. Are we normal in an abnormal world?
Do you have ADD. Does it belong to me?

Old hippies, Neil Young....maybe so, maybe yes, maybe no

Kenny Rankin, high heels and lace....yes or no

Just felt the need to add to the original post. See what you can do with this, because I am still confused.
No pain, no anger, just want to know.

Thanks,
Annie

I am so confuse with this thread...

What is everyone talking about ??? LOL :rolleyes: :p

I am so confuse with this thread...

What is everyone talking about ??? LOL :rolleyes: :p
"Thank you!" Being confused is always so much better when you're not there alone.

So far, I know it's about some neil young songs, comments from some of us ole hippies, ADD & the "filters" we have & some examples of how we use them.

If my "view" of this thread is "off"....I apologize...this week had been a long one yesterday & it was only Tues.....so please don't anyone be offended.

BlessedLady

we sometimes like to make up our own language... :eek:

especially me-- when I am not sure of what is going on. and we are all okay. I like this add language, sometimes speak it rather fluently and other times, well I am just cluelss like the next person.

filter, for me, is a word to describe how I see my world, based on my experience. It's like a lens of sorts. my ADD lens. We all have filters but we give them various names. It's also about how I process and make meaning from what I see around me. about my perspective. But there is always a unique meaning for each individual...

Some folks have taken the meaning to another level and that's fine too. I take what I can.

As far as Neil Young goes, I'll just have fun with the music and conjure up some old memories of college. btw, never was a hippy, just a teen trying to find my place and attempt to fit in.

Anyone remember Flowers in your Hair. Everytime I go to this thread I just want to sing the old tunes.

If you go to San Fransisco, be sure to wear some flowers in your hair....you're gonna meet some gentle people there.

This is my opinion for what its worth Stabil and I open myself up to any critisum from you or anyone else on the matter.

Stabil I am find your reading of the various topics to be very long and drawn out ....

while your point are quite interesting, I am finding your postings increasingly hard to read as they are way to long.

by the time I am finished reading your post I am forgetting what you were talking about in the first place .....................

So what I find is happening is that I am starting to ignore your posts due to the complexity of them.

This I really dont want to do as I do enjoy many of the things that you have posted and said

So I am asking you

Out in front of everyone else

Mostly for my personal reasons ( but there may be others who are also getting lost in your posts)

If possible

Could you shorten your posts down
or

Break them up into 2 or 3 posts

But for sure don't be offended by my words as it is me who is having difficulty deciphering your posts, and not your posts that are at fault

my 2 Can - ADD - ian cent's worth

Garry

Deeperblue...................Stabile.............. ..

Filter, for me, is a.........We look at something,
word to describe how I.......an object or event or other
see my world, based on.......abstract element of our
my experience................moment-by-moment
.............................perception of the world
It's like a lens.............in which we're immersed,
of sorts.....................and we try to understand it.

My ADD lens..................We look for reasons, or
.............................relationships, or any pattern
We all have filters..........in what we see that makes
but we give them.............sense of it in the context
various names................of our personal universe.

It's also about how I........And we weave that into
process and make meaning.....the whole,
from what I see around me....the master pattern of all
.............................we know and understand,
About my perspective.........what we know of
.............................but don't yet understand,
But there is always a........and what we suspect
unique meaning for each......might be out there,
individual...................waiting to be understood…


Neil Young:

Blind man running
through the light
of the night
With an answer in his hand,
Come on down
to the river of sight
And you can really understand…


DeeperBlue:

we sometimes like to make up our own language...


SB_UK:

Would one expect the style, language and content of posts by nonADDers discussing a subject on a forum, to be different from the style, language and content of ADDers discussing the same subject on another forum; I guess what I'm getting at is whether you think that an expression of the use of these different logical structures, is to enable us to extend language beyond its normally tightly constrained form…

Do you think that posts are painted and not written by ADDers?


Stabile...

Yup
what is ADD, that
is the question, this
is the answer, now
where did I put
the door?

or, maybe words are the answer.
big words, dude. lots of 'em.
don't let them trap you.
trip them. trip you, trap them,
sanfranciscoflowers all over again?

...you'll meet some gentle people there?

One of the great German physicists of the early part of the last century (which one escapes me at the moment) was famous for charging into his lectures, rattling off formulas and formal description non-stop, and leaving without making a single mark on the blackboards that lined the lecture hall.

Students were left without any useful notes, and the state of physics being what it was at the time there were few texts available. Finally, a group of the students got up the nerve to approach the professor en masse, and begged him to show at least the mathematical formulas on the board.

Surprised by the request, he quickly agreed. But when he began the next lecture, he again charged on into it with not a hint that he might grab for a piece of chalk.

Finally, near the end of the hour, as he finished presenting a particularly abstruse bit with a flourish, he exclaimed, "There! It's a simple as one plus one equals two!"

And then, suddenly remembering his promise to the students, he walked over to the blackboard, picked up the chalk, wrote 1 + 1 = 2, and left.

and sometimes I do wonder what is in between the 1_____+1_____=_____2 Seems to me that there is an awful lot of space and nuance and stuff to be explained and learned and experienced.

And, while I might not undertand what the learned physicist explains, does that mean that it is not true or does not exist or have value?

I might Find that I cannot always absorb the material and so I can take my time, grab what I can and move along. and come back again, until I have worked it into my life.

If I do not understand now, maybe I will later. Maybe I will come to the understaning that 1+1=2, while simple, is not really... and neither is the truth of my life. Because if it really can be reduced to this simple problem, I might as well go home, close my door and paint my house beige.

And that can never happen.

Yeah, I guess the point is that sometimes we forget to make the details comprehensible, or at least it seems that way. I'll bet all those students got their PhD's though, and wound up understanding the subject just fine.

And that's also the point; we believe that pretty much everyone 'gets it' when we approach these weird (OK, difficult) subjects, regardless of whether they have that easy feeling of understanding when they read through, or even skim over.

Or maybe, it's better when it doesn't make sense on first reading; we seriously study the ebb and flow of debate on this particular forum, and have seen the character of comments change remarkably every time a new round of complex ideas gets a hearing.

Usually, only a few members seem to feel they've really put enough time into most of these complex threads. But we don't notice any difference in how members understand these ideas no matter how immersed they were in the thread at the time.

So we see Garry (and others) 'getting it' despite the lamentable lack of brevity on our part, even if they don't take the time to read our posts, and how could that be the case? Ask SB_UK, who's thread on communications is just around the corner (which thread started here, BTW).

Cheers.

...getting it' despite the lamentable lack of brevity

I think that we all get it in our way, time and space, btw, yet we communicate this understanding by placing our own words to express the meaning. And we build upon this understaning by way of our own unique and creative foundation. maybe over time we could all understand the PH.D's presentation because we will have engaged ourselves in physics talk, language, speak or any other mode of thought.

I think that we all get it in our way, time and space, btw, yet we communicate this understanding by placing our own words to express the meaning. And we build upon this understaning by way of our own unique and creative foundation. maybe over time we could all understand the PH.D's presentation because we will have engaged ourselves in physics talk, language, speak or any other mode of thought.
…which is why SB_UK addressed communications directly here, in this thread – it really is about that, especially that.

Your post is describing a cautious descent into the interior, our interior, and you're correctly holding back on deciding whether you believe we will all find the same thing once we get in there.

Shoot, most of us were reared to fiercely hold to the idea that our personal interior is just that, personal. We’re all individuals, and to suggest we're clones of each other in some way, such as in how we perceive and understand reality, raises our hackles.

All of which is a nice, safe view from outside, and perfectly understandable, too. It just happens to be wrong, completely wrong; whatever makes us individuals is quite safe and has nothing to do with freedom to form opinions about our common reality, and our common experience in that reality.

I know that might be a bit difficult to wrap your heads around at first, if for no other reason than the chip on everybody's shoulder when it comes to someone telling you how you think.

But the evidence is undisputable; the only possible way for us to communicate at all about even the simplest of ideas is for every single one of us to have exactly the same ideas about our common reality stored away in our individual heads.

If we lose the smallest bit of the synchrony between those individual copies of how we perceive reality, it’s the Tower of Babble all over again. So we spend a lot of effort (which we usually don't recognize) keeping what we think in perfect sync.

What / we / think / in / per / fect / sync.

What we think
in perfect sync.

What.we
.think.

in.per.fect
.sync.


OK, about how we extend the common models: if we depend on perfect sync to communicate, how is it possible to introduce something new?

And if we're still really all individuals, how does that happen, and where?


Neil Young, again. Same song, different day:

Don't let it bring you down
It's only castles burning,
Just find someone who's turning
And you will come around…

Singing words, words
between the lines of age.
Words, words
between the lines of age.

{{Can you read between the lines? Does it take a glass of wine? Or maybe a coronita and a slice of lime?}}}quote ~gourmet~

If I was a junkman
selling you cars,
Washing your windows
and shining your stars,
Thinking your mind
was my own in a dream
What would you wonder
and how would it seem?

{{{Relationships.....what is real? Is ADD real? Is it beautiful? Is it ugly? Should we hold it and love it and take it home? Or should we throw it away.

Garbage. It's all garbage. Carried down the road in a garbagetruck.}}}quote~goumet~


Living in castles
a bit at a time
The King started laughing
and talking in rhyme.

{{{Deception.....is it telling us the truth? Is ADD honest and pure?
Are you ADD. Is that who you are?

Reality.....are we sure. Are we human. Are we normal in an abnormal world?}}~gourmet~


Now if we want to continue on the Neil Young thread .........

and we are in sync with what we think.......and look through a filter as we paint a thread........

Is it important for the reader to understand the author's intentions?
How necessary is it truly, and to what extent?

Is it grander to understand the text of a Phd than metaphor..
or even carefully designed poety and song?

Where is the mind and what is the difference in the efforts expressed and accepted in order to communicate?



.....Maybe I ask the questions because I don't want to hear the answers..Maybe I want to hear what I prefer to hear..................Maybe I hear exactly what you want me to hear.

{{Old hippies, Neil Young....maybe so, maybe yes, maybe no

Kenny Rankin, high heels and lace....yes or no}}} quote~gourmet~



"It keeps us moving in unchartered directions..........." ~gourmet~

As an undergraduate student in college, I took a course on the philosophy of ethics.
The professor was quite serious about his work. On the midterm exam was a single page with the one-word question "why ?" at the top of the page. The rest of the page was blank.

Most of the students spent time filling as much of the page as they could (including me).
It turned out that the correct answer to the question was "why not".

Glen


One of the great German physicists of the early part of the last century (which one escapes me at the moment) was famous for charging into his lectures, rattling off formulas and formal description non-stop, and leaving without making a single mark on the blackboards that lined the lecture hall.

Students were left without any useful notes, and the state of physics being what it was at the time there were few texts available. Finally, a group of the students got up the nerve to approach the professor en masse, and begged him to show at least the mathematical formulas on the board.

Surprised by the request, he quickly agreed. But when he began the next lecture, he again charged on into it with not a hint that he might grab for a piece of chalk.

Finally, near the end of the hour, as he finished presenting a particularly abstruse bit with a flourish, he exclaimed, "There! It's a simple as one plus one equals two!"

And then, suddenly remembering his promise to the students, he walked over to the blackboard, picked up the chalk, wrote 1 + 1 = 2, and left.

that was actually a question at one of philosophy courses at my local University when I was there years ago.

Great questions get around, I guess :D . Anyway, when a friend told me about this question on her exam I said all cleverly: BECAUSE.

Then I learned that would have only got me 65%, because, as you said, the right answer was: why not?

(and I still like to mull that over every now and then)

As an undergraduate student in college, I took a course on the philosophy of ethics.
The professor was quite serious about his work. On the midterm exam was a single page with the one-word question "why ?" at the top of the page. The rest of the page was blank.

Most of the students spent time filling as much of the page as they could (including me).
It turned out that the correct answer to the question was "why not".

Glen

Stabile,

I'm sure you have really good opinions, but I do sadly scroll by your posts cuz teh length of them is just too daunting for me to manage.:(

I have tried to read a few, but alas, for myself, I do not easily see the specific points you are trying to make, which is disappointing, so I hope you consider this in yur future postings, as some others may feel similarlu.

Discussion on relationship stuff and the makeup of ADD mind is very interesting, but even though you are avid poster and concientiously being inclusive in your arguments, I am not able to take it in.

If you could possibly do points in bullet form maybe and be a little shorter, would be much appreciated.

Um. Also, i do not understand your terminology sometimes, so for simpler minded me, I get lost a bit there too.:confused:

Please do not feel offended, but i am glad it has been mentioned, cuz I have been missing out on some good stuff you have been sharing.:) :)

cs

Yeah, I guess the point is that sometimes we forget to make the details comprehensible, or at least it seems that way. I'll bet all those students got their PhD's though, and wound up understanding the subject just fine.

And that's also the point; we believe that pretty much everyone 'gets it' when we approach these weird (OK, difficult) subjects, regardless of whether they have that easy feeling of understanding when they read through, or even skim over.

Or maybe, it's better when it doesn't make sense on first reading; we seriously study the ebb and flow of debate on this particular forum, and have seen the character of comments change remarkably every time a new round of complex ideas gets a hearing.

Usually, only a few members seem to feel they've really put enough time into most of these complex threads. But we don't notice any difference in how members understand these ideas no matter how immersed they were in the thread at the time.

So we see Garry (and others) 'getting it' despite the lamentable lack of brevity on our part, even if they don't take the time to read our posts, and how could that be the case? Ask SB_UK, who's thread on communications is just around the corner (which thread started here, BTW).

Cheers.

Someday I'd like to read this whole thread.
But right now I'm too old.
An old horse with no name.
And I really did live in a commune in the rain for 2 years.
And in a sleeping bag for seven years altogether.
It was like walking a tight rope, perfect balance required.
Now I'm too old and would break if I fell, so I stay inside a lot.
So, now they call us ADDers.
hrmph.
They're just jealous 'cause they can't talk this poetry lingo.

Life in a Commune (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=185742#post185742)

Any one who lived in one who would care to comment on it

If you can remeber any of it

A new thread was started at this link

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=185742#post185742