Hi All,

I am wondering how you deal with setting boundaries and relationships. My personal issue has been establishing relationships quickly and with an intensity that is overpowering to the other person. I have a very hard time drawing the line between casual friend and Partner. This is not on the sexual realm, although I am generally uninhibited with a woman that I establish a connection with.

I feel this is due to not understanding the culture. I never really learned (and probably will always have a hard time) putting definitions on my relationships with other people that are mutualy understood. I have a model that predicts this called "internal reference".

What are your relationships like? Do you have this issue as well? How do you set boundaries? Do you set boundaries?

Overpowering intensity most of the time for me. That is one of the main reasons I decided to get help with the old adhd.

Something that I have always, and to this day, have trouble with is reading the importance of any given relationship. If I meet someone that I like, they might as well be my best friend.....which can be pretty uncomfortable for the someone if that was not their own intention. Especially if that someone does not like me! Not a fun thing to admit.
That's my relationship requirement...one that includes a partner that can accept that kind of intensity. Be it lover or friend.


Less significant, however annoying is the need I feel to cross boundaries of those I do not know.
Inappropriate hugs....oh god, and for someone with a social phobia... I can worry over that one for weeks. I've tried to take babies from mothers at check out lines,,,,,,a definite no no.
Inappropriate jokes,puns, metaphors....argh. GOOD NEWS THOUGH!!!!! That impulse is improving as I write. The Strattera has been great...may get me out of some trouble.

Hi Chain,

It usually takes me a long time to feel comfortable in a relationship...I think it is because I don't feel at ease until I really 'know' the person...and this seems to take a while for me...perhaps anywhere from six months to a couple of years (but my best friends seem to be the ones that it took me a couple of years to get to know!). I rely so heavily on my gut feeling or intuition and I don't think that I trust that feeling until I can intelletualise it or understand it...I don't know if that makes sense at all?!

There are some people that I meet who I instantly want to be friends with...ironically, they tend to be the hardest to actually develop a friendship with...it's hard to realistically get to know them when they are standing up high on that big pedistool! It makes communication a little difficult...lol! Another reason that it can be difficult to develop relatinships with people I put up onto a pedistool (which I know isn't realistic...and I'm doing it less and less) is because I like them so much, I fear being rejected, so I don't act like I would with someone who I felt more comfortable with. I'm far less relaxed and don't talk to them as naturally as I normally would.

From my point of view, the biggest factor in developing a new friendship seems to be space...no matter who the person is, I find it incredibly difficult to be friends with anyone who rings every day and wants to catch up every week. I just can't bare being without my own time...when I was about eight years old, my mother's cousin bought a key ring for me from her Canadian holiday. It was a cow boy's hat with the words, "Don't fence me in" on it...I remember thinking back then that that was apt!!

As for boundries, yes, I do set them, but it is only over the last couple of years that I've felt comfortable enough within myself to do it. For example, when I used to feel crowded in by someone, I was more likely to try avoiding them because I couldn't bare hurting thier feelings (which I know is wrong and ironic), but mostly, I wasn't strong enough within myself to be able to tell them that I simply need my own space...but that I would love to catch up another time. I feel hugely terrible and embarrassed about this...because I'm sure I left some people feeling confused and even hurt when I didn't mean to. I just didn't know myself well enough...nor did I have the strength to be upfront. I wish I could take those years back. But you know what, I think that I hurt myself most of all when I was younger...because I then felt awful, and at the same time, I didn't understand why I ignored them...and this confused me...was I kind or was I mean...?! :eek:

Now I am feeling ok about myself, and can see when I need my own space...so I'm comfortable enough to be able to say that I'd love to catch up, but I need to be on my own today...but perhaps next week. If they don't like it, well, I think that then becomes their issue...because I did my best with who I am.

Best wishes,

Susan

Chain and Artsmartbabe,

I seem to be the exact opposite of what you have described. I never establish relationships quickly. In fact, I don't feel as if I have ever established a solid relationship with anyone friendship or otherwise to this day. I tend to be extremely independent and place a very high value on my time alone. Many times this will push people away from me because they interpret my actions to mean that I am not interested in them, which isn't necesarily the case.

To complicate the situation even more, I am extremely skeptical of everyone. I understand this to be a pretty bad character trait on my part, but I cannot seem to overcome it. Whenever I first come into contact with someone, I believe him or her to have some hidden agenda until he or she can prove otherwise. Lots of times people don't want to become friends with someone when they have to earn their trust, but for me, my trust has always been something that must be earned.

So what usually happens is I meet people who can get past my initial defensive barriers and then I will spend concentrated periods of time with them followed by periods of distance and little to no communication. The people I end up being around are those who can adjust to my "odd" ways (it all seems normal to me :)).

As a result to all of this, I just have a small set of friends in my home town. It's a little different here at college because my best friends all live right on my hall. I know it would be different if we didn't live right next to each other.

As far as dating goes, I've dated (casual dating, no actual "realationship") many girls for short periods of time, but all of that seems to come and go pretty quick. Sometimes it is because I go off and do my own thing for a while and sometimes it's just because I simply don't trust the girl. There is one girl that I have dated on-and-off for short periods of time with lots of time in between over almost three years, but I don't think she can take much more of me being around for a while then not hearing from me for a couple months and then coming around again.

Usually what happens is if I haven't dated anyone for a while I will think about it and it will be somewhat upsetting. The company of a nice young lady is always a good thing, and by that I mean just having someone to be with and go places with. However, another girl always comes along and we will date for a little while then it stops and the whole situation won't bother me anymore. Many times I've thought about the scenario where I might just go through life having girlfriends and never find someone special to settle down with. Unlike my friends, that doesn't bother me the least bit. The only part that I'm somewhat concerned about is that I'd like to have kids someday and I'm not to sure how that would work out.

Anyways, this is getting long and I'm probably rambling at this point, but I hope I at least managed to say something relevant to the topic.

I'm headed in other directions. I have been watching as my need for instant gratification declines, the quality of people I'm attracting is greater.

The wavelength of my experience is getting longer in everything, including relationships. It's yielding a much more dynamic and lasting intimacy, I think. There seems to be more emphasis available for higher quality contact. A natural rhythm becomes apparent with some contacts growing and others subsiding.

The boundaries are dynamic and often unspoken. The spoken boundaries encompass more than they used to.
Mr. letting go. Ian.

I have never, ever had the need for instant gratification or fleeting relationships [romantic]. Having only had 2 intimate relationships in my life [by choice and one is current], I seem to be able to distinguish lover/friend/aquaintance very easily. I also set the limits on good friends by never crossing over the barrier into "lover" territory.

My boundaries have always been very clear cut when it comes to my intimate relationships, and the deep loyaly results in me not noticing who is male and who is female on a forum:eek: ....because I simply don't care. I care about people, but what sex they are is irrelevant to my liking them. It's easy to put that down to ADD alone, but I know it isn't.

Simply put, a lover is always my best friend, and always comes first, but a close friend will not be my lover.

I don't go around wanting to know all about people's business, and basically I leave everyone alone. My boundaries are quite strong and set.:)

-Viktoria

Boundaries with people are very important to me.
I like to take my time getting to know a person.
And have them get to know me.
People who want to be my "Instant Friend" give me the creeps.
My friendships last because I take the time and care in building them.

I do have trouble with people wanting to be my instant friend.
Only because I was kind to them.
They want to latch on.

I'm always comfortable with in the boundaries of my true friendships.

I am wondering how you deal with setting boundaries and relationships

I have the same intensity when it comes to men of sexual interest to me. I get too close too fast with potential partners. I guess I have some sort of ability to pick up on other people rapidly as I tend to gravitate toward men who have the same problem.

Once the relationship becomes a partnership I have few boundaries but the ones I have are definite. I expect honesty and a level playing field. I expect my partner do his part, pay his own bills, and not be a total slob. If he expects me to place a high value on the relationship and put forth effort I expect the same back. Not too much different than most run of the mill stuff. The way I handle boundary issues seems to be the unique part of my person.

I caught my partner on a sexual date site. I tracked his internet travels for months then one day asked him about it. He denied any wrong doing. I warned him that lying to me was a bad thing. : Still he persisted to lie :mad: so I put up my own profile in the same sexual dating site. Seeing we met on an internet dating site I knew we would come up as a match again. I did not show my face. One day my cup runeth over and I blew. When I got done blowing up; I blew him away.. ;) Not only did I have a profile up on the same site I pulled my profile up with him present. My response rate was so good we were both surprised. I was notably intrigued. I let him walk a mile or so in my shoes then we got down to business.

We changed some things in our relationship. He want to experiment with different "things" .Okay I can do that. Want to “swing” okay I have been there too. Although it has been twenty years swinging life style was familiar to me. I have had a wide variety of experiences with both men and women. What bothered me wasn’t his curiosity with alternative martial activities. What made me mad was his lack of honesty. He had never been with a woman who was willing to explore any thing out side of the traditional male female rules. It did make sense when he told me being open to setting our own rules wasn’t some thing he knew as an option.

I feel a couple should be free to walk in relationship in what ever way they both feel comfortable. If swinging is what floats your boat then swing away. I just want a man to be honest and allow me the same freedom he enjoys. When a parson wants to step out side of the relationship but still expects their partner to remain “faithful”. That is cheating!!! Sex doesn’t make one a cheater and a liar it’s the dishonesty thing :soapbox:

He and I did this for about six months. The “life style” opened the doors of communication a requirement needed for an intiment relationship no matter what sexual life style the couple chooses. My intiment relationships last longer than most expect.

I am a very flexible person who can adjust rapidly to different cultures and life styles. I can hang with the church goes, atheist, black people, and white people. I am as comfortable hanging out with a homosexual as I am with a preacher and his wife. I don’t know if that is ADHD, an inconsistent childhood or a combination of both. I am rarely judgmental. My limits are extreme :eek: racism, animal cruelty, liars and thieves!!!

My plutonic relationships are the ones that take me time. With friends of the opposite sex I rarely have problems crossing the no sex boundaries especially if one of us (or both) is involved with some one. I have little time or patience to play games; dodging bullets does not appeal to me. I get to know people gradually, closeness develops over time. I have few requirements but can not do the overly clingy. I have been lucky that I do not attract that sort of person. For some reason the overly needy don’t hang long with me. This seems to be a natural occurrence as I do not have to put forth effort. I am hyperactive and can be hard to catch. I have several aquentenses but a small circle of close buddies.

I can be assertive with out being aggressive. Once my cup is full I can go from calm, mild mannered, kind of goofy, to full tilt rage in less than a second. I have learned over time how ever that when I finally do say some thing that it needed to be said. When I go off the deep end I have usually BEEN trying to get my point across in a positive, productive manner. Only after positive, productive, healthy, straight forward, fail do I get down right belligerent.

Before I began treating my ADHD I didn’t know what personal; boundaries were. The creating them was kind of natural but it was defining them that took time and effort. My reaction to having them violated is what make me unpredictable!!!! :D

Oh stori, I have the same feelings you do about someone latching on. And I can feel insincerity a mile away. The "WALL" goes up instantly around some people I know because it is so apparent.
One of the biggest turn offs is for someone to "gush" over me. Fortunately I don't have to worry with that very often.

On the other hand, I have the "gift of gab" which can come in handy whle waiting in a long line or riding on an elevator! Kind of weird for a social phobic :)

artsmartbabe That is exactly it! You said it the way I was thinking about it.
I think the gift to gab has a lot to do with that.

It's that kindred spirit thing again stori813 :)

Hi Ian.

Just curious. I thought you had a unique perspective on the subject.

Can you give an example of a spoken boundary?


I was wondering if the higher quality people and relationships attracted to you come with a spoken or unspoken boundary.

Is there a boundary that encompasses both the spoken and the unspoken? And what happens if this boundary is overstepped?

Are the boundaries wider or narrower than before your treatment? Or are they variable or more transparent?

Thanks

The bottom line is respect, really. You..." have a very hard time putting definitions on relationships with other people that are mutually understood." Yet, if the relationship is truly mutually understood, there would be no trouble with its definition.
Make sure you're not taking advantage of others' adherence to polite behavior in order to secure their company. "Internal reference" might just be your intellectualization of ignoring their wishes. The more you respect boundaries of others, the more they are willing to let you in. Personally, I like to let friends off the hook if they're just not into a commitment, because I've been there. If you're not good at recognizing boundaries, say so, and ask the other person to let you know if it's uncomfortable. They'll be impressed with your commitment to their comfort level.

If you're not good at recognizing boundaries, say so, and ask the other person to let you know if it's uncomfortable. They'll be impressed with your commitment to their comfort level.


That is a good idea. Some times boundaries are obvious even to the oblivious. Please, thankyou, helping some one who is struggling with several packages and can't open the door. If only they were all cut and dry.

General and working social situations aren't realy that hard for me. The real toughies are the personal social like meeting boy friends family for the first time. Mine was complicated by the fact my boy friend had dated some very interesting women in his recent past. In my life the only way to meet a boy friend's family is in bunches. It is easier to meet new people in small amounts over longer periods of time as opposed to a family renioun, baby showers (the worst because the only person I knew left because he was a male).

Despite my hyperactivity I am usually quiet when around people I do not know. I stand back and watch, often the "unspoken rules" are displayed in behavior. I also watch how people approach me. My ADHD seems to actually help I can pick up to minute changes in body language. I was unconfortable the first couple of time I went to Gary's family gatherings. I think that this is actually normal.Okay normal for every one but Gary who rarely meets a stranger but has a tendency to step over boundaries.

When in doubt about grey areas I usually ask. Boundaries, and "social rules" vary from family to family. I was reared in a very open family dominated by mostly women. In my family it is acceptable for me to allow a man into our home when Gary is not here if we both know the guy. The only limitation is remaining in common areas of the house.

In Gary's family this is not acceptable. If a male member of his family comes over and Gary is not here they will not come inside our home unless I actually call Gary and he tells them it is okay. If Gary doesn't answer his cell and male family wishes to converse I have to step out side. Upon observation all his family members obide by this rule. According to Gary it is "out of respect".

In my family this is considered an insult, and a sign of mis-trust. I mean if a female family member comes over and I am not here I do not have a problem with her and Gary visiting in the living room. I trust the women in my family and I trust Gary. Because his is the most restrictive boundary we abide by his with the exception of my sisters, daughters, my mom!! They come over when I am not home Gary is to invite them in period. Making them stand in blairing heat, cold, rain is unhospitible!!!

The above boundaries have been openly discussed between Gary and I. I am a question box; as if I do not knwo and can not obverve I ask!!! :confused:

Gary has a cousin we share a common interest. Gary does not share our interest is said subject. Gary's cousin wanted me to read a certain paragraph on a certain page so he calls Gary to give me the message (luckily Gary let his message service get it because he would not even remember the call much less the message) Now I have some thing I want Gary's cousin to read in response. My problem: is it appropiate for me to call his cousin or should I get Gary to call his cousin and then let me talk to him? I do not want his cousin mis-interpreting my actions. I will ask Gary afterall this is HIS family's boundaries!!!!

It would be hard for me to enjoy the rigidity of it all.

I suppose that if using your husband's cell is the protocol he's comfortable with, I'd be using that. I might keep close tabs on what was sent and when, so that I could follow up on the sequence of events later to find the holes in the process.

If it's working for him to be a conduit, and it wasn't hurting me any to have him do so, then I'd just go at it like I normally would. This would likely become a pain in the butt for him if my enthusiasm for the conversation with the cousin got to need frequent and longish contacts.

If my partner could relay the information efficiently both ways, without messing up the conversation, there would be much fewer grounds to complain. If messages got lost or forgotten and out of sequence, I'd be miffed and looking to change the setup.

In a nutshell, I'd use the current system to the maximum, hoping it might force some change.
Very interesting dilemma. Hope you can keep us posted.
Ian.

Most of my relationships have healthy boundaries. At different times in my life, I've found myself...sharing who I am with people, that aren't trustworthy. Or, will take more than they're willing to give in return. i.e. calling and asking for help, I'm right there. I need help and ask for it, they hem and haw...might show up, or not even return a call. btw...I'm not one who asks others for very much at all.

Recently, I decided to let go of what I thought was a good friendship. I was honored to be a groomsman for his wedding, etc. But the friendship feels like a cognative distortion on my part, my friend appears almost like a chamelon in some aspects. And the way he'd treat me sometimes, has given me a couple of headaches and stomach aches over the years. I still think he's a super person, but feel like I need to set a healthy boundary...and open myself to the possibility of new growth in my life.

If it's working for him to be a conduit, and it wasn't hurting me any to have him do so, then I'd just go at it like I normally would. This would likely become a pain in the butt for him if my enthusiasm for the conversation with the cousin got to need frequent and longish contacts.


I don't see that longish thing happening, besides said cousin comes over and works with Gary at least once a week and we can talk openly. We don't say any thing to eachother Gary can't be a part of or present for. If Gary wished to participate fine if not okay.

Now I understand how these type of boundaries appear represive as I was not reared with this sort behavior like I stated in my post it is intrepreted as an insult. Much discussion has taken place between Gary and I about the subject of "rules".


[Remember I live in the Southren part of the U.S.. Boundaries not only differ in families but differ in regions. Gary was reared "old style counrty" which tend to be very consertive. He isn't the first person I have met who believes this way. My best friend of 12 years he husband was reared like this.

I had to drop some thing off at her house and needed to carry said object into her house. My friends kids helped me but her husband stood out side until I was out side and finished. He did this because it is "proper" behavior.


If my partner could relay the information efficiently both ways, without messing up the conversation, there would be much fewer grounds to complain. If messages got lost or forgotten and out of sequence, I'd be miffed and looking to change the setup.


I am usually flexable as long as it doesn't interfere with my inpatence too much. I become progressively angery. When some thing first starts to get on my nerves I will first try to go around it. Then I will be polite and "mention" said problem. If certain behavior continues my mentioning becomes stronger and more direct. Then when my cup flows over I go from strong discussion to all out rage. :mad:

I have been seen by family as being "helplessly permissive." I have been told I take this and that because I think I have no choice. I gave the comment some thought and realized that I don't comply because I have no other choice I am easy going because I KNOW it is my choice. If I absolutely "can't stand" some thing Gary does or doesn't do I can make it go away. I can change my life when ever I want. I know because I have soooooo many times before :rolleyes: When I have enough things change one way or another!!! The "healthy flip side of being ADHD!!!!

Thanks for the insight.

Well said!

I do the same thing all the time. It is a big problem for me.

I have to work hard to make sure I've not stepped over someone's personal boundaries unwittingly. I can't really pick up on where most people's personal boundaries are unless they tell me. Mostly, I rely on a set of learned social norms, and stick with those.
I think that makes me seem aloof, or unresponsive sometimes.

The hard part is reading people well enough to get accurate feedback during conversation.
I have to keep eye contact, and read faces and listen carefully. I need to use my intuition more. I have to constantly remember to be a little reserved. This means I need to know when to try to control my impulse to say exactly what is on my mind, and to try to stay in touch with her sensitivities as best I can, so that I'm not accidentally sending the wrong signals or going past personal boundaries.

I find all this to be tough to do even though I'm just mildly ADD.

I still get it wrong a lot, but if I am not trying I get it wrong a lot more than I should.

(Wow! reading my own words makes me think that I'm HFA as well as ADD)

Glen



Hi All,

I am wondering how you deal with setting boundaries and relationships. My personal issue has been establishing relationships quickly and with an intensity that is overpowering to the other person. I have a very hard time drawing the line between casual friend and Partner. This is not on the sexual realm, although I am generally uninhibited with a woman that I establish a connection with.

I feel this is due to not understanding the culture. I never really learned (and probably will always have a hard time) putting definitions on my relationships with other people that are mutualy understood. I have a model that predicts this called "internal reference".

What are your relationships like? Do you have this issue as well? How do you set boundaries? Do you set boundaries?

I find all this to be tough to do even though I'm just mildly ADD.
Once you remove the silly DSM description (although accurate with a subset of CM)... there is no mildly ADD. I am never late to work... I am not as messy as some non-adders I know... but I am not cultural, that is what ADD really is (through contextual mind). Impulse is doing things the culture says is wrong.... impulsive is what we are ;-)

That whole example about ADD kids running out in the street as being impulsive.... yeah to people who can not hear a car from half a mile away, lol!

I am just beginning to get the idea of IRCM. It is an intriguing idea. I had noticed that I seemed to be mostly internally referenced before I read about IRCM, so it kind of tweaked my curiosity. I'm not completely sold on it as a valid theory, but I think it does have a lot to say in terms of describing ADD in terms of culture and socialization. The evolutionary implications for it are profound.

I paused and thought about this after I read your posting. I now realize that, in many ways, there is no such thing as "mildy ADD". You are either ADD or not. However, It is possible to have mild symptoms of ADD. I have mild symptoms , for the most part, but I'm always 100% ADD. With that in mimd, I'm inclined to stop saying "mildly ADD". I stand corrected for my misuse of words.

Glen




Once you remove the silly DSM description (although accurate with a subset of CM)... there is no mildly ADD. I am never late to work... I am not as messy as some non-adders I know... but I am not cultural, that is what ADD really is (through contextual mind). Impulse is doing things the culture says is wrong.... impulsive is what we are ;-)

That whole example about ADD kids running out in the street as being impulsive.... yeah to people who can not hear a car from half a mile away, lol!

The really interesting thing that I find about IRCM...is how amazingly flexible CM is... we can actually build a somewhat reasonable HM "mockup" in it. In fact sometimes it would appear as though we are more externally referenced than many people around us... that is... until those people get invited into group structures that they participate in without questioning and us smarty pants are still left on the outside wondering...what about me? (if we do get invited...of course it does not take long before that "forced questioning" kicks in and destabilizes the group...even when we are on our best behavior! If that does not happen, then boredom sets in and we wander away)

We actually "understand" culture better because we are outside looking in...have you ever found yourself explaining cultural norms to some bewildered looking person? THAT is internal reference. We see the forest, they see the trees. We just can't join them in not seeing the forest... too late, saw it already. It is dark in there and it is hard to see the trees ;-)

We actually "understand" culture better because we are outside looking in...have you "ever found yourself explaining cultural norms to some bewildered looking person? THAT is internal reference. We see the forest, they see the trees. We just can't join them in not seeing the forest... too late, saw it already. It is dark in there and it is hard to see the trees ;-) "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~quote :chain

Maybe my brain is getting bigger now chain, because I am beginnig to get it.

~gourmet~

"I am giving an opinion that has not been substantiated by medical review. Please take this into consideration.
Oh... AND I am silly :)"................no, you are weird, dude :)

have you "ever found yourself explaining cultural norms to some bewildered looking person?

I do better with "broad band" culture norms. I mean I do really well at the easy stuff like not taking things that don't belong to me, talking bad stuff behind peoples backs,lieing, deception,ect .....

It is the "little rules" that make me nervous. The things that are accepted in one family are not considered acceptable in another.

Like in Gary's family it is considered okay to shush "company" in mid-conversation to watch TV.

In my family it is considered rude to even watch TV when you have company(unless it is a tornado watch, or national crisis). Exception planned group movie watching, or getting together to watch a certain show!!!! Planned TV watching is the opposite becomes "the rule". It is considered rude to talk through a movie or show ten other people are trying to watch.

With this being said, it is considered rude in both families to blab about the ending to others who have not seen the movie before!!!!!

Those "little" social differences are the ones I struggle with!!!! :rolleyes:

Hi Tammy!

I don't see those as little differnces at all, Tammy.

They may unspoken or subtle.......but, boy doesn't that say a lot about what Chain said about being outside looking in? And hey, what about me?

I can remember going to friend's homes as a kid or teen and the stress of just wondering which was the appropriate chair to sit in!

If you sit in the Papa bear's chair it is way too hard......mama's too soft..........and we all know about the baby bear chair.

Don't want to step on somebody's unspoken inside rule.
It gives me a headache......the chair thing, to this day :)

~gourmet~

no, you are weird, dude :)
Moi? Weird... not me.. no way ;)

Yes, I understand that, now that I know more about what I am. I had constructed an HM model and was making it work fine for myself all my life until I developed neurological issues which brought my traits to the surface.

I've always considered myself to be different. Now I know it for a fact, and can prove it. The hard part is, now I know I can not be like the most people even if I wanted to, so I will never be mainstreamed into the culture. I used to think I had the option. Now I see that I don't have that choice. So, this is a period of adjustment and learning acceptance for me.

Glen

The really interesting thing that I find about IRCM...is how amazingly flexible CM is... we can actually build a somewhat reasonable HM "mockup" in it. In fact sometimes it would appear as though we are more externally referenced than many people around us... that is... until those people get invited into group structures that they participate in without questioning and us smarty pants are still left on the outside wondering...what about me? (if we do get invited...of course it does not take long before that "forced questioning" kicks in and destabilizes the group...even when we are on our best behavior! If that does not happen, then boredom sets in and we wander away)

We actually "understand" culture better because we are outside looking in...have you ever found yourself explaining cultural norms to some bewildered looking person? THAT is internal reference. We see the forest, they see the trees. We just can't join them in not seeing the forest... too late, saw it already. It is dark in there and it is hard to see the trees ;-)

So, this is a period of adjustment and learning acceptance for me.

Glen
I call it "the positive state". It is very existential. Once you know the choices you don't have...you can focus on the ones that you do. The interesting thing about the positive state...is that it is respected in the culture. All of the things you wanted before become available when you don't want them anymore because you have found something better...yourself :)

The positive state comes with a massive jolt of creative energy. You learn to use this wonderful "unbounded mind". It is pretty cool. Oh yeah.... the ADD is "cured" at that point ;-)

I do better with "broad band" culture norms. I mean I do really well at the easy stuff like not taking things that don't belong to me, talking bad stuff behind peoples backs,lieing, deception,ect .....
To tell you the truth... those are things that the culture promotes :)

1. Talking behind people's backs is one way to form a group. This creates solidarity between members of the group. It is simply a linking strategy. In childhood, it is sharpened. In highschool (especially in female gender roles) it creates alliances. On the national level it creates patriotism. (hate those commies!)

2. Lying is used constantly to promote self images of people in a group structure by the individuals themselves or by others in the group. It becomes more sophistacated in adults and is a very big part of the mating rituals.

3. Deception is used by individuals on themselves to create a better self image (see above) or on others for the same purposes. I one member of a group has a differeng opinion that would shatter group unity...they will decieve the others into believing that they are with them. Decption is vital for bringing people together...it usually even dips below the concious level in most people. Every group does this.

4. Taking other people's stuff. Mostly this is done with ideas (you probably notice this as an idea generator) This forms group unity...the person who takes your idea...slips it to the group and it becomes a piece of their identity. I always have had this happen with the funny type words I coin :) (I actually like it) Hierarchy is built arround taking other people's stuff...that is the way it works. The most stuff to the people in the highest places. (In a sense there really is no true ownership...count the things you have owned since you were a child)

Of course the details are tricky...but other people figure them out because they know how to do the things above...in a culturally appropriate way :)

4. drives me nuts and it happens all the time especially at meetings. People are looking for an idea for something so I'll pipe up and share my idea, then people will look at me like I'm from flipping Mars and ignore it, continue on ENDLESSLY with their idea-ing then someone repeats my idea and everyone jumps on it and says yes, that'll work, and claps the person on the back.

Then I just shut up and do a slow burn. I rarely get credit for my ideas. Rarely to almost never.

OOp I'm way off topic, but that just got to me. :o :D

4. drives me nuts and it happens all the time especially at meetings. People are looking for an idea for something so I'll pipe up and share my idea, then people will look at me like I'm from flipping Mars and ignore it, continue on ENDLESSLY with their idea-ing then someone repeats my idea and everyone jumps on it and says yes, that'll work, and claps the person on the back.

Then I just shut up and do a slow burn. I rarely get credit for my ideas. Rarely to almost never.

OOp I'm way off topic, but that just got to me. :o :D
Knowing grin :)

I experience the "credibility gap" often enough that it's become a family joke.

thanks guys,

I sometimes feel I have the reputation of being a helpful person, but "never quite on the mark", when from my side, I"m batting well, pretty nicely anyway.

Must try to work on the lighter side of that :D !

Originally Posted by crime_scene
4. drives me nuts and it happens all the time ...then someone repeats my idea...

You know what's 'funny'.. is that I will say something to someone, and someone else will say the same exact thing, to someone else, later on, but within my earshot...

Of course, I'm not worried about 'credit' at that point, because it's out of context.. but I just mention how I 'just said that to so and so, a few minutes ago...'

Thought transfer... accept it.

By the way, somehow, I don't think that Einstein would've even noticed if another would've taken credit for his theory on relativity...he would've long forgetten it...and would've mentioned ''Oh yes, I agree, totally..."

See where I'm heading with this...????

Nova