View Full Version : Is ADHD really about choice?


Toss4n
11-08-15, 06:42 AM
So I just watched the newest episode of David Eagleman's show "The Brain", and in it he discussed how we as humans make choices. The thing is is that while we are under the illusion that every choice we make is logically calculated by us prior to us making it, the truth is that emotions play a big role as our bodies sometimes know when we are making a bad choice before we are aware of it.

The interesting thing is though that each time we make a choice a dose of dopamine is released in the prefrontal cortex region of our brain, and depending on the amount, the signal gets stronger or weaker. Say if you choose to go to the park with your kid, and you end up having a bad time because it starts to rain and the swings are broken, the amount of dopamine that gets released is ~zero, which inadvertently affects the possibility for that choice to be made in the future in comparison to others (to go to the mall instead of the park, or perhaps the movies, etc.). This is a continuous system that keeps track of every choice we've ever made, and as you probably already guessed, the choices associated with the largest amounts of released dopamine are usually the ones we prefer the most and end up repeating.

So in ADHDs brains this system is broken, resulting in us not being able to continuously make the right choices, be they conscious or unconscious, as the amount of dopamine that gets released is much smaller than it should be. However, because this is a system that continuously keeps track of every choice you have ever made, you could potentially teach your brain to emulate the brain of an ADHD person, by rewarding bad behavior. This is why people get addictions for instance, as the amount of dopamine associated with taking drugs is so high that the brain associates the bad behavior with significant reward which leads to the brain seeking to repeat it. The same goes for spending time on social media, eating like crap, playing video games, etc.

This basically got me thinking, that if you can teach it to make the wrong decisions, you should also be able to teach it to make the RIGHT decisions. And this is probably why behavioral therapy is usually the right way to go at first, because it is impossible to distinguish between learned ADHD and real ADHD. If you cannot teach your brain to make the right choices, then and only then can you know for certain if you have real ADHD or not.

So in the end it all comes down to choice. :cool:

Thoughts?

Fuzzy12
11-08-15, 06:48 AM
It is a lot about choice in the sense that we are not good at making c or rathoices to ensure long time well being.. Or future gains. The problem isn't though that we don't know what the right choice is but that we are unable to follow that choice. I am perfectly aware every time I'm following the wrong choice. I was convinced for more than 30 years that at some point I will learn how to do what I know is right. :rolleyes:

I think behavioural therapy can help if it shows you how to.make it easier to act on the right choice (eg using strategies like planners alarms deadlines etc).

And yes, i guess.most people (including kids) who get diagnosed with ADHD are diagnosed after years or a long time of not being able to make the right choices..in whatever age appropriate way.

aeon
11-08-15, 07:18 AM
Here’s my thought: the idea that you can reduce ADHD to be the dysfunction of a single neurotransmitter is...foolish, in that it doesn’t align with the science.

Also, the function of dopamine as it concerns expectation/seeking/drive/reward, etc., occurs in many parts of the brain, not just the prefrontal cortex.


Cheers,
Ian

Toss4n
11-08-15, 07:19 AM
It is a lot about choice in the sense that we are not good at making c or rathoices to ensure long time well being.. Or future gains. The problem isn't though that we don't know what the right choice is but that we are unable to follow that choice. I am perfectly aware every time I'm following the wrong choice. I was convinced for more than 30 years that at some point I will learn how to do what I know is right. :rolleyes:

I think behavioural therapy can help if it shows you how to.make it easier to act on the right choice (eg using strategies like planners alarms deadlines etc).

And yes, i guess.most people (including kids) who get diagnosed with ADHD are diagnosed after years or a long time of not being able to make the right choices..in whatever age appropriate way.

Thing is though, that not being able to make the right choice should not be the sole backbone upon which the diagnosis should be made, as you can teach your brain to reward bad behavior and consequently emulate the conditions of an under-stimulated ADHD brain. Giving stimulants to such a person could have a devastating effect on their dopamine-systems and scar them for life. This is why the diagnosis should be primarily focused on not being able to teach your brain to make the right choices no matter how hard you try, and only then give out the meds (doesn't really solve the problem, but at least doesn't damage normal funcitoning brains, just deprived of the right external lessons).

Toss4n
11-08-15, 07:29 AM
Here’s my thought: the idea that you can reduce ADHD to be the dysfunction of a single neurotransmitter is...foolish, in that it doesn’t align with the science.

Also, the function of dopamine as it concerns expectation/seeking/drive/reward, etc., occurs in many parts of the brain, not just the prefrontal cortex.


Cheers,
Ian
It was a very simplistic view on the matter sure, but the part about choice is the interesting thing here - as we can teach our brain to make the wrong choices by rewarding bad behavior. The point I was trying to make illustrate is that a lot of people are getting diagnosed based on just not being able to make the right choices, which is not strong enough evidence for making an ADHD diagnosis (in my opinion), as it could just stem from not having learned how to make the right choices from the get go. The medications used could irreversibly damage such a person's dopamine-system, which I am sure you already know. Just wanted to make sure people actually understand why medication should be the last resort.

BellaVita
11-08-15, 07:32 AM
It was a very simplistic view on the matter sure, but the part about choice is the interesting thing here - as we can teach our brain to make the wrong choices by rewarding bad behavior. The point I was trying to make illustrate is that a lot of people are getting diagnosed based on just not being able to make the right choices, which is not strong enough evidence for making an ADHD diagnosis (in my opinion), as it could just stem from not having learned how to make the right choices from the get go. The medications used could irreversibly damage such a person's dopamine-system, which I am sure you already know. Just wanted to make sure people actually understand why medication should be the last resort.

I don't understand why you are making the assumption that "a lot of people are getting diagnosed based on just not being able to make right choices"?

People are diagnosed if they fit the diagnostic criteria, and if those symptoms have been present since a young age.

aeon
11-08-15, 07:35 AM
The point I was trying to make illustrate is that a lot of people are getting diagnosed based on just not being able to make the right choices,

Citation? Who and where?

The medications used could irreversibly damage such a person's dopamine-system, which I am sure you already know. Just wanted to make sure people actually understand why medication should be the last resort.

No, I don’t know that, because at the dosages used in clinical treatment of ADHD, whether in someone with the disorder, or not, nothing will be irreversibly damaged.

Medication is *first-line* treatment for a reason.


Cheers,
Ian

someothertime
11-08-15, 07:43 AM
Can a bird choose to befriend a human? I see that on about the same "choice" rung as above.... There is no doubt that the theory is sound.....

So we look deeper... Does the bird need to befriend the human..... and why?

Is the birds current life "mal-functioning"..... ???

Agree with Bella too..... the thing is... I needed medication to gain the neural autonomy to begin these remappings... although... as you mention... medication more often than not over the LONGER term.... tends to produce / bring on it's own set of obstacles......

I do not agree with it being a last resort. Though I do agree with a need to ensure it reaches those of us that need / require it..... in order to advance our lives.

Little Missy
11-08-15, 07:53 AM
Being on medication helped me to step back and choose to become someone to be relied on, able to prioritize between spending wantonly or paying my bills first. I was able to choose to plan ahead for myself responsibly.

I was able to scholarship my way through a private college. Join the concert and jazz bands. Be on the student council and immerse myself in college life. Something I never would have thought of doing unmedicated.

Without medication my choices were all based in the moment and it never was going to work out well that way.

I do wish I had been diagnosed when I was much younger.

Maybe it is all about choice. I chose to live well instead of having nothing and being a big ole' mess.

No amount of medication ever will make me try behavioural therapy. I taught myself.

Toss4n
11-08-15, 07:55 AM
Citation? Who and where?

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html

The long list of symptoms is basically a list of choices are body constantly makes, and most of those could stem from not having taught the brain to work correctly from the start.

No, I don’t know that, because at the dosages used in clinical treatment of ADHD, whether in someone with the disorder, or not, nothing will be irreversibly damaged.

http://www.rxlist.com/adderall-drug/side-effects-interactions.htm
That's not really true, and why most of the medications used in the US are banned elsewhere.

And that's because most people never stop using the medication. My use of the word irreversibly might have been a bit overdramatic, but there are a lot of things it could affect if used long-term.

Medication is *first-line* treatment for a reason.

Medication definitely isn't the first line of treatment anywhere but the US. Not saying the meds are bad mmkey, but that people should understand that there are a lot of things that should be considered before taking the meds. :)

BellaVita
11-08-15, 08:02 AM
The long list of symptoms is basically a list of choices are body constantly makes, and most of those could stem from not having taught the brain to work correctly from the start.

I think you misunderstood/misread the criteria.

For example - how is fidgeting a choice?

How is having trouble paying attention a choice?

How is being forgetful a choice?

This just isn't adding up.

It sure isn't s choice for me, or else I would be focusing, I wouldn't be hyperactive, I wouldn't forget things.

It is something we are born with, it is neurobiological.

stef
11-08-15, 08:15 AM
medication helps many here make the right choices

Toss4n
11-08-15, 08:20 AM
I think you misunderstood/misread the criteria.

For example - how is fidgeting a choice?

How is having trouble paying attention a choice?

How is being forgetful a choice?

This just isn't adding up.

It sure isn't s choice for me, or else I would be focusing, I wouldn't be hyperactive, I wouldn't forget things.

It is something we are born with, it is neurobiological.
Choice isn't always conscious. The body is making a lot of choices for you without you ever being aware of it, and your brain is basically only creating the illusion that you are in control (watch the TV series and you'll see just how it all works :)). Fidgeting = your brain's unconscious choice of not wanting to sit still and your willpower trying to make your body act against what your brain is telling it, trouble paying attention = you brain is making the choice of focusing on something else that gives it more dopamine, being forgetful = again same system, same results - you forget because your brain doesn't see enough reward from the thing you ought to remember to deem it as being important, etc.

Again I am not trying to say this is something you can be in control of (if you have ADHD the unconscious mind seeks stimulation causing these kinds of symptoms), but that there probably exists a group out there that are diagnosed as having ADHD, when in fact their brains are just trained to make the wrong choices. That's why I made the distinction between real ADHD (neurological disorder) and learned ADHD (people not having taught their brain to make the right choices (drug addicts etc.)).

aeon
11-08-15, 08:22 AM
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html

The long list of symptoms is basically a list of choices are body constantly makes, and most of those could stem from not having taught the brain to work correctly from the start.

I want a citation to back up your assertion.

That link is not a citation. Also, what is listed there is diagnostic criteria.

And I hear you saying could. And to that, I say no. The science doesn’t suggest a could.


http://www.rxlist.com/adderall-drug/side-effects-interactions.htm
That's not really true, and why most of the medications used in the US are banned elsewhere.

Once again, a link provided with no citations, no evidence to back up your assertion.

Banned elsewhere because of social control and lagging in the science.

And that's because most people never stop using the medication. My use of the word irreversibly might have been a bit overdramatic, but there are a lot of things it could affect if used long-term.

No, it was not overdramatic. It was wrong, plain and simple.

Know that. Own that.

Medication definitely isn't the first line of treatment anywhere but the US.

Citation?

Not saying the meds are bad mmkey, but that people should understand that there are a lot of things that should be considered before taking the meds. :)

That I can wholeheartedly agree with.

Remember:

“What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”


Cheers,
Ian

Wowwowwow
11-08-15, 08:32 AM
Thing is though, that not being able to make the right choice should not be the sole backbone upon which the diagnosis should be made, as you can teach your brain to reward bad behavior and consequently emulate the conditions of an under-stimulated ADHD brain. Giving stimulants to such a person could have a devastating effect on their dopamine-systems and scar them for life. This is why the diagnosis should be primarily focused on not being able to teach your brain to make the right choices no matter how hard you try, and only then give out the meds (doesn't really solve the problem, but at least doesn't damage normal funcitoning brains, just deprived of the right external lessons).

Very interesting ,my psycholigist tells me I am the wrong person to have on stimulant medications,and I believe the brain is responsible for much of that ,we are all wired differently , thus the wide variety of personalities ,I believe no person on this earth has perfect mental health ! Having suffered a major spine injury in early 30 s ,I managed to stay at work with terrible back pain for twenty years , last April in Jamaica my wife and I met a couple ,he was the top chiropractic sports dr in Toronto,he told me science is starting to understand how the brain works with pain , if you touch your toes with a mildly sore back its laboring ,if you squeeze your core muscles tightly and touch toes all pain in back of legs dissipates ,brain is focused on core muscles ! That's why I'm on lyrica for nerve pain ,cuts pain signal to nerve ,same as squeezing abs does for bending over ! Tks interesting stuff

Toss4n
11-08-15, 09:34 AM
I want a citation to back up your assertion.

That link is not a citation. Also, what is listed there is diagnostic criteria.

I just wanted to share what was said in a TV program, as it made me understand why we make the choices we make and why people with ADHD have a difficult time making the right choices, not have a scientific debate that none of us here are qualified enough to have (just pointing to abstracts of articles found on pubmed != scientific argument). :p Because we still don't have any foolproof way of diagnosing ADHD right now, makes it really hard to prove that there are a bunch of people being misdiagnosed simply because it's the easier choice; some people just want something to blame their own misdeeds on.

And I hear you saying could. And to that, I say no. The science doesn’t suggest a could.

Lack of evidence does not prove the opposite. We still need more longterm studies to be able to ascertain whether or not these types of medication could damage the brain. There's a reason why they are not sold without prescriptions.

Once again, a link provided with no citations, no evidence to back up your assertion.

Banned elsewhere because of social control and lagging in the science.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/825672
"However, the UK and the other 8 nations couldn't agree on whether the benefits of dexamfetamine sulfate outweighed its risks. According to an EMA announcement, the Netherlands maintained that 'Dexamed presents a higher risk for abuse and dependence compared with other ADHD treatments.' In addition, the Netherlands said that the evidence for the drug's efficacy wasn't convincing."
So they are just waiting for more evidence which I think is a smart choice. I hope these guys know what they are doing better than us.

No, it was not overdramatic. It was wrong, plain and simple.

Know that. Own that.

You are right, based on the latest scientific evidence, longterm effects of low-dose amphetamines actually seem to point to more dopamine, not less, being produced in the brain naturally. I would still like to see more longterm studies done, before actually drawing any definite conclusions though. Pretty interesting! Once again, I act before actually thinking. :p

That I can wholeheartedly agree with.

Remember:

“What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”


Cheers,
Ian

Glad we can agree on something at least! :goodpost:

Toss4n
11-08-15, 10:06 AM
I don't understand why you are making the assumption that "a lot of people are getting diagnosed based on just not being able to make right choices"?

People are diagnosed if they fit the diagnostic criteria, and if those symptoms have been present since a young age.

Well I basically just skimmed through the DSM V criteria, and I don't know about you, but most of them seemed to be quite common and could easily be explained by a lacking upbringing or basically just a disinterest in schoolwork/work.

The criteria:

The criteria of symptoms for a diagnosis of ADHD:
Inattentive presentation:

Fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes. Has difficulty sustaining attention.
Does not appear to listen.
Struggles to follow through on instructions.
Has difficulty with organization.
Avoids or dislikes tasks requiring a lot of thinking.
Loses things.
Is easily distracted.
Is forgetful in daily activities.


Pretty sure 99% of the people on earth display at least some of these traits sometime in their lives. I personally just think it would thus be better to first try cognitive behavior therapy just to see if it helps, and if not, then try it with meds. :) But as was already explained earlier in this thread, the medication really isn't that dangerous (unless you maybe have a history of substance abuse or heart condition), so maybe medication is the better choice as it probably makes things a lot easier (a bit like with ADs and therapy).

BellaVita
11-08-15, 10:57 AM
Pretty sure 99% of the people on earth display at least some of these traits sometime in their lives.

Yes of course, everyone experiences a symptom similar to ADHD sometimes but ADHD people experience these symptoms 24/7.

If there is no impairment, then it isn't ADHD.

Roundmouth
11-08-15, 11:53 AM
It was a very simplistic view on the matter sure, but the part about choice is the interesting thing here - as we can teach our brain to make the wrong choices by rewarding bad behavior. The point I was trying to make illustrate is that a lot of people are getting diagnosed based on just not being able to make the right choices, which is not strong enough evidence for making an ADHD diagnosis (in my opinion), as it could just stem from not having learned how to make the right choices from the get go. The medications used could irreversibly damage such a person's dopamine-system, which I am sure you already know. Just wanted to make sure people actually understand why medication should be the last resort.

Interesting, I've been thinking about something similar. More than half of my patients are diagnosed with ADHD, they definitely have behavioral problems, a damaged rewardsystem and drug problems. However... From many of them I get no 'ADHD vibes' at all. They also don't responds as expected to stimulants and I've wondered if there may be other things expressing themselves as ADHD symptoms. Also, they usually respond well to simple behavioral treatment, like 'don't expect to do this unless you first do that'.

Lunacie
11-08-15, 11:56 AM
Pretty sure 99% of the people on earth display at least some of these traits sometime in their lives. .

While that is true, it's also true that at least 5% of the people on earth display these traits 99% of the time.

Can you choose to keep your hair from falling out and becoming bald? No, it's genetic.

ADHD has been shown to be even more genetic than many traits that are accepted as inherited.

It's not a choice we make. If it were, we could choose to change. And we cannot.

mildadhd
11-08-15, 12:00 PM
Since we all have ADHD from early childhood, I have a hard time considering ADHD as a choice.

I see ADHD as a sensitive emotional temperament, early emotional experiences and implicit emotional memoiries.


What do people mean when they say medication is the first line of treatment?

Surely they don't mean children should be given medication as the very first treatment option?


P

Lunacie
11-08-15, 12:01 PM
Interesting, I've been thinking about something similar. More than half of my patients are diagnosed with ADHD, they definitely have behavioral problems, a damaged rewardsystem and drug problems. However... From many of them I get no 'ADHD vibes' at all. They also don't responds as expected to stimulants and I've wondered if there may be other things expressing themselves as ADHD symptoms. Also, they usually respond well to simple behavioral treatment, like 'don't expect to do this unless you first do that'.


Yes, some people are misdiagnosed or given the wrong diagnosis.

Things like thyroid problems and bipolar can mimic ADHD. Thing is, those are not a choice either.

Toss4n
11-08-15, 12:37 PM
Since we all have ADHD from early childhood, I have a hard time considering ADHD as a choice.

I see ADHD as a sensitive emotional temperament, early emotional experiences and implicit emotional memoiries.


What do people mean when they say medication is the first line of treatment?

Surely they don't mean children should be given medication as the very first treatment option?


P

I didn't mean that suffering from ADHD is a choice, but rather that it is about not being able to make the correct choices; you can for instance make the choice of doing something else than what you should, due to your dopaminergic systen not working correctly for instance.

Toss4n
11-08-15, 12:44 PM
Interesting, I've been thinking about something similar. More than half of my patients are diagnosed with ADHD, they definitely have behavioral problems, a damaged rewardsystem and drug problems. However... From many of them I get no 'ADHD vibes' at all. They also don't responds as expected to stimulants and I've wondered if there may be other things expressing themselves as ADHD symptoms. Also, they usually respond well to simple behavioral treatment, like 'don't expect to do this unless you first do that'.

Exactly! The system is easily affected by other things that could lead to symptoms very alike to those of ADHD sufferers. I think it's not just limited to drugs however, but that positive reinforcement of the wrong kind of behavior could mimic the symptoms as well (just a hypothesis based on the TV program, but think it is interesting).

Think of it this way: if parents never teach their children to sit still and do their homework, and always let them do whatever they want, then how could these children then be expected to sit still during a 45minute lecture/ pay attention to boring stuff (the system would be malfunctioning because it would never have learned to work correctly)? These children could potentially be diagnosed as having ADHD, when in fact they would have perfectly functioning neurotransmitter-systems, that are just in need of some reprogramming.

Wowwowwow
11-08-15, 12:47 PM
Here is a tidbit of science , psychiatrists are the few people in a profession unlike a surgeon ,who looks at a report , these people give you lifelong diagnosis in 30 minutes , I've had 3 different psychiatrists with three different diagnosis ! My newest I explained the flaw I saw in just prescribing medication after medication that wouldn't work , he agreed and meds were stopped immediately ! The most important thing is not letting the first person you see be labeling you anything ,and until your comfortable enough that you have confidence in that person to trust diagnosis well , because these people have degrees ,like this grossly overweight quite unpleasant looking women that at some point stopped eating long enough to become a psychiatrist ! The world holds no perfect people ! My first psycholigist is almost 60 married to a 30 yr old ! I'm thinking if you were looking for investment advice ,would you search it from somebody in foreclosure ! Food for thought .....

mildadhd
11-08-15, 01:13 PM
I didn't mean that suffering from ADHD is a choice, but rather that it is about not being able to make the correct choices; you can for instance make the choice of doing something else than what you should, due to your dopaminergic systen not working correctly for instance.

I really like some of the points you are making but am having trouble with the word "choice".

If the first choice is not a conscious choice, how could the second choice, be a conscious choice?

If a person does not choose to have undiagnosed ADHD, and then for example "chooses badly" to self medicated with cocaine, because cocaine helps them focus, without much thought of the consequences.

I don't see that second choice as a being healthy choice, either, (and a direct result of not choosing ADHD.)

Thoughts?

P

Toss4n
11-08-15, 01:22 PM
I like some of the points you are making but am having trouble with the word "choice".

If first choice is not a choice, how could the second choice, be a conscious choice?

If a person does not choose to have undiagnosed ADHD, and then "chooses badly" to self medicated with cocaine, because cocaine helps them focus.

I don't see that second choice as a being healthy choice, either, (and a direct result of not choosing ADHD.)



P
Just using the word choice because that was what David used in the TV program (they didn't really discuss ADHD at all, but the dopaminergic system and its involvement in the choices the brain makes ). :) The brain is constantly making a lot of unconscious choices that you and I are unaware of, and the systems behind these choices are broken in people with ADHD, which makes them make bad choices, not out of their own volition, but because they are just programmed that way from birth (again this is just speculation on my part just think it works as a great way to explain why cognitive behavior therapy works for some, while others need medication).

mildadhd
11-08-15, 02:08 PM
Just using the word choice because that was what David used in the TV program (they didn't really discuss ADHD at all, but the dopaminergic system and its involvement in the choices the brain makes ). :) The brain is constantly making a lot of unconscious choices that you and I are unaware of, and the systems behind these choices are broken in people with ADHD, which makes them make bad choices, not out of their own volition, but because they are just programmed that way from birth (again this is just speculation on my part just think it works as a great way to explain why cognitive behavior therapy works for some, while others need medication).

The SEEKING system (dopaminergic pathways) are always involved in some way.

What happens to the SEEKING system, when the FEAR system is stimulated? (Example)



P

mildadhd
11-08-15, 02:27 PM
When Fear Is Near: Threat Imminence Elicits Prefrontal-Periaqueductal Gray Shifts in Humans

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1730691#post1730691



P

meadd823
11-08-15, 03:45 PM
I did not choose to be ADHD any more than I chose to be born in the first place.

I moved a lot because it physically hurt for me to sit still. That was NOT a choice at any level, it simply was the way it was.

As far as making the right choices well first one has to be able to stick with a single thought long enough to know there is a choice to be made. Many of the combined impulsive type react before we even know what we are reacting to never mind be ale to sit down and follow a thought , see the option and choose. Hell I did not know following a thought was possible until I was on medications

I have spent the past 23 years learning what to do with the ability but that is basically life as it is for every one. Here is the thing to consider people with ADD may lack the ability to slow their thoughts down long enough to be aware of the choices or the flip side of impulsivity as the inattentive may be able to make choices but lack the ability to act on those choices but even those without ADD make bad choices leading me to believe that bad choices are a human element we all experience from time to time

By the way

I have been in ADD medications for 23 years still waiting for that long term toxic effect. Maybe it is because I was made in America :lol:

Roundmouth
11-08-15, 04:03 PM
Yes, some people are misdiagnosed or given the wrong diagnosis.

Things like thyroid problems and bipolar can mimic ADHD. Thing is, those are not a choice either.

Just making clear... I don't think anyone here is saying that any of these conditions would be a choice. As far as I've understood, 'choice' is not about chosing a disability, but whether this condition is about the ability to make the right choices. ADHD makes it hard making the right choices and some people may be wrongly diagnosed and wrongly tretated because of difficulties making the right choices.

Fuzzy12
11-08-15, 04:10 PM
I wonder if the psychiatrist in that programme interpreted choice differently to how it's mostly interpreted, which is that choice implies free will. Sometimes it doesn't...especially not in terms of animal behaviour. Sometimes what you choose is based on factors such as genetics or brain chemistry..or species, etc.

I think if you have ADHD you are more at risk to make choices that aren't in your best interest...not because we don't know better but because our best long term interests don't motivate us enough to make an appropriate choice...or rather act in accordance with that choice. And that isn't something that you can learn. We can't learn to have the right brain chemistry so that faced with a choice we act on what we know is the right choice. But Meds can help with that.

We can learn though how to make it as easy as possible to act on the right choice...and I think that's where behavioural therapy can be useful...probably even more useful if you can set the right environment with meds.

aeon
11-08-15, 04:20 PM
ADHD makes it hard making the right choices and some people may be wrongly diagnosed and wrongly tretated because of difficulties making the right choices.

Regardless of why, if they meet the diagnostic criteria (to the exclusion of other diagnoses, by means of differential diagnosis), they have ADHD.

By definition.


Cheers,
Ian

Roundmouth
11-08-15, 06:15 PM
Regardless of why, if they meet the diagnostic criteria (to the exclusion of other diagnoses, by means of differential diagnosis), they have ADHD.

By definition.


Cheers,
Ian

Well, yes... and no. We're supposed to be born like this. I'm talking about people who may have developed very similar traits because of reasons mentioned in the original post. While there on one hand are people going undiagnosed, there may be others being diagnosed with ADHD because of diseases, behavior problems or personality disorders.

Some of my patients are treated with stimulants and going completely wild and psychotic. Litium make them better but they don't like it because it makes them feel dull. They like getting high and wild.

Wowwowwow
11-08-15, 06:28 PM
I did not choose to be ADHD any more than I chose to be born in the first place.

I moved a lot because it physically hurt for me to sit still. That was NOT a choice at any level, it simply was the way it was.

As far as making the right choices well first one has to be able to stick with a single thought long enough to know there is a choice to be made. Many of the combined impulsive type react before we even know what we are reacting to never mind be ale to sit down and follow a thought , see the option and choose. Hell I did not know following a thought was possible until I was on medications

I have spent the past 23 years learning what to do with the ability but that is basically life as it is for every one. Here is the thing to consider people with ADD may lack the ability to slow their thoughts down long enough to be aware of the choices or the flip side of impulsivity as the inattentive may be able to make choices but lack the ability to act on those choices but even those without ADD make bad choices leading me to believe that bad choices are a human element we all experience from time to time

By the way

I have been in ADD medications for 23 years still waiting for that long term toxic effect. Maybe it is because I was made in America :lol:

I may have witnessed some of this in your last post ! Good point :yes:

aeon
11-08-15, 06:42 PM
Well, yes... and no. We're supposed to be born like this. I'm talking about people who may have developed very similar traits because of reasons mentioned in the original post.

Right, and I am telling you it doesn’t matter what the reason is.

If they meet the criteria, they can be diagnosed as having ADHD, by definition.

Why they meet the criteria (per my earlier posts) is immaterial.

While there on one hand are people going undiagnosed, there may be others being diagnosed with ADHD because of diseases, behavior problems or personality disorders.

Diseases obviously would be a misdiagnosis.

Behavior problems in and of itself would be a misdiagnosis.

Personality Disorders of whatever type would be a misdiagnosis.

That’s why I said “to the exclusion of other diagnoses, by means of differential diagnosis” earlier. I know you have to rule other things out first.


Cheers,
Ian

mildadhd
11-08-15, 06:55 PM
I have the Canadian type of ADHD.


P

mildadhd
11-08-15, 09:11 PM
I want to make better choices.

I understand I don't always make good choices because I have ADHD.

But at the same time I want to work on making better choices.

I appreciate everyone's thought's and support's on all the topics over the years.

Choices, and what influences choices are somethings to think about for sure.

I am going to make the choice to not post for a week, and see if I can.



P

sarahsweets
11-09-15, 05:23 AM
The issue I have is what constitutes the wrong choices with adhd beyond the obvious? If someone with adhd starts to do something fun lie buiding a model airplane, and before finishing, moves onto another fun thing, is the fact that they never finished building the model airplane mean that they made a wrong choice when they moved on to something else? Of course it would be nice if the person finished the one project before starting another but neither choice is wrong or right.
The idea of choices conjures the idea of a moral code or moral character which has nothing to do with adhd.

Fuzzy12
11-09-15, 06:08 AM
The issue I have is what constitutes the wrong choices with adhd beyond the obvious? If someone with adhd starts to do something fun lie buiding a model airplane, and before finishing, moves onto another fun thing, is the fact that they never finished building the model airplane mean that they made a wrong choice when they moved on to something else? Of course it would be nice if the person finished the one project before starting another but neither choice is wrong or right.
The idea of choices conjures the idea of a moral code or moral character which has nothing to do with adhd.il


I think, if you make a choice that you know isn't the best choice purely because you are unable to resist the worse option that might be due to ADHD. So yes, in this case of the not being able to finish making the plane I'd say that could be due to.ADHd.

idk_idk
11-10-15, 06:12 AM
Once we understand genetics better, I think it may be the choice of your parents as to whether a person will have ADHD. Even today we know, if two people with ADHD have a kid, they're more likely to have a kid who has ADHD. So yes, to some degree it is a choice...if choice exists but this isn't really debate a free-will so I'll leave it at that.

Amtram
11-16-15, 03:33 PM
David Eagleman is a self-promoter much more than an authority on neuroscience. Given that he teaches at the same institute that brought us William Dembski, I don't have much faith in his ability to present unretouched facts.

Kunga Dorji
11-16-15, 05:05 PM
So I just watched the newest episode of David Eagleman's show "The Brain", and in it he discussed how we as humans make choices. The thing is is that while we are under the illusion that every choice we make is logically calculated by us prior to us making it, the truth is that emotions play a big role as our bodies sometimes know when we are making a bad choice before we are aware of it.

The interesting thing is though that each time we make a choice a dose of dopamine is released in the prefrontal cortex region of our brain, and depending on the amount, the signal gets stronger or weaker. Say if you choose to go to the park with your kid, and you end up having a bad time because it starts to rain and the swings are broken, the amount of dopamine that gets released is ~zero, which inadvertently affects the possibility for that choice to be made in the future in comparison to others (to go to the mall instead of the park, or perhaps the movies, etc.). This is a continuous system that keeps track of every choice we've ever made, and as you probably already guessed, the choices associated with the largest amounts of released dopamine are usually the ones we prefer the most and end up repeating.

So in ADHDs brains this system is broken, resulting in us not being able to continuously make the right choices, be they conscious or unconscious, as the amount of dopamine that gets released is much smaller than it should be. However, because this is a system that continuously keeps track of every choice you have ever made, you could potentially teach your brain to emulate the brain of an ADHD person, by rewarding bad behavior. This is why people get addictions for instance, as the amount of dopamine associated with taking drugs is so high that the brain associates the bad behavior with significant reward which leads to the brain seeking to repeat it. The same goes for spending time on social media, eating like crap, playing video games, etc.

This basically got me thinking, that if you can teach it to make the wrong decisions, you should also be able to teach it to make the RIGHT decisions. And this is probably why behavioral therapy is usually the right way to go at first, because it is impossible to distinguish between learned ADHD and real ADHD. If you cannot teach your brain to make the right choices, then and only then can you know for certain if you have real ADHD or not.

So in the end it all comes down to choice. :cool:

Thoughts?

1) There is no such entity as "learned ADHD" as opposed to "real ADHD". Check the specific criteria for ADHD in DSM, and the preface and introduction of DSM.

2) It is quite true that decisions are often automatically made on the basis of emotional or intuitive inputs, in fact the hijacking of attention in ADHD is often driven by exactly such inputs.
However it is clear that these decisions are made automatically, on the basis of ill percieved emotional inputs.

In fact an emotionally/ intuitively based decision is already made about 400 milliseconds before the prefrontal cortex has been able to process the incoming data. That has been well demonstrated by fMRI studies in which subjects were shown emotionally challenging pictures and asked to respond via keyboard. ( The premotor cortex was active before the pfc).

Behavioural therapy can be helpful if it is aimed at the right target.ie- in dealing with a difficult and angry ADHD child the correct behavioural intervention may well be directed at the parents- and instructing the parents in helping their child self regulate his emotional state.

I continue to argue that mindfulness therapy is the correct format for delivering behavioural change-- as mindfulness is directed at becoming more aware of, and more adept at self regulating, one's internal state, and the physical cues that dictate that emotional state.

All emotions are accompanied by specific autonomic, and muscular- postural changes and without these changes there is no emotion- just a thought.

One behavioural therapy I do advocate, though, is the approach of learning to become less busy- to make space to observe ones' own emotional state, and to learn to settle it.

However, most behaviours are driven by very strong emotional cues that are usually subliminal because they have been present so long they are no longer easily perceived- they are "the new normal" for us as individuals. They are no longer "a variable' so- they become less obvious to us.
So basic behavioural therapy which does not address the motivations for the behaviour, often fails.

CBT is very popular for a number of reasons, but most particularly because it can be standardised and quantified easily (that appealss to the academics, and fits in with curent ideas about what "evidence based medicine" is, and it can be delivered in a limited number of sessions, which is appealing to third party insurers.

Kunga Dorji
11-16-15, 05:08 PM
David Eagleman is a self-promoter much more than an authority on neuroscience. Given that he teaches at the same institute that brought us William Dembski, I don't have much faith in his ability to present unretouched facts.


That may be so-- but maybe it is more respectful to the OP to discuss the nature of the proposition that he is putting forwards than to engage in an ad hominem attack?

Most of us are right some of the time and wrong some of the time and just because someone has a possibly distant association with someone we regard as discredited does not mean that the material under discussion is false.

mildadhd
11-17-15, 08:20 PM
...2) It is quite true that decisions are often automatically made on the basis of emotional or intuitive inputs, in fact the hijacking of attention in ADHD is often driven by exactly such inputs.
However it is clear that these decisions are made automatically, on the basis of ill percieved emotional inputs.

In fact an emotionally/ intuitively based decision is already made about 400 milliseconds before the prefrontal cortex has been able to process the incoming data. That has been well demonstrated by fMRI studies in which subjects were shown emotionally challenging pictures and asked to respond via keyboard. ( The premotor cortex was active before the pfc).

Behavioural therapy can be helpful if it is aimed at the right target.ie- in dealing with a difficult and angry ADHD child the correct behavioural intervention may well be directed at the parents- and instructing the parents in helping their child self regulate his emotional state...


Great post, helps a lot!

Emotional cues influence which of the BrainMind's 7 basic evolutionary emotional system's behaviors are driven.





P

mildadhd
11-18-15, 06:56 PM
Feelings. Feelings. Thoughts. Feelings. Feelings. Thoughts. (Pre-mindfulness?)

Feelings. Feelings. Thoughts. Thoughts. (Mindfulness?)




P

anonymouslyadd
11-18-15, 08:27 PM
It's a choice like a rooster chooses to crow.

anonymouslyadd
11-18-15, 08:35 PM
It was a very simplistic view on the matter sure, but the part about choice is the interesting thing here - as we can teach our brain to make the wrong choices by rewarding bad behavior. The point I was trying to make illustrate is that a lot of people are getting diagnosed based on just not being able to make the right choices, which is not strong enough evidence for making an ADHD diagnosis (in my opinion), as it could just stem from not having learned how to make the right choices from the get go. The medications used could irreversibly damage such a person's dopamine-system, which I am sure you already know. Just wanted to make sure people actually understand why medication should be the last resort.
Where is your evidence for the belief that people are being diagnosed more frequently due to poor choices?:scratch:

Kunga Dorji
11-19-15, 10:10 AM
You know this post really disturbs me.


Well, yes... and no. We're supposed to be born like this.

You do realise that this "we're supposed to be born like this" theory has nothing to do with the formal definition of ADHD in the DSM, don't you?

DSM is very explicit in making NO assumptions about causation. DSM is a system of taxonomy that subdivides clinical presentations of "mental suffering" into clusters of similar behaviours (syndromes).
The idea that we have a genetically based disorder that we are born with is a theory - a theory held by a group of influential senior clinicians, but never the less a theory, and one that is not endorsed in DSM. (read the introduction and the FAQs carefully).

It is also not based in fact-- given the extremely high rates of ADHD in displaced and traumatised populations like the native Australians. This is a group of individuals who survived 40,000 years in a harsh environment purely because they were very, very good at paying close attention to the signs of food in their environment. No ADHD there until their world was turned upside down by disease and systematic violation of their property rights and human rights by 6 generations of invaders.

That pattern is not consistent with a genetic/ biochemical explanation.



I'm talking about people who may have developed very similar traits because of reasons mentioned in the original post. While there on one hand are people going undiagnosed, there may be others being diagnosed with ADHD because of diseases, behavior problems or personality disorders.

Personality disorder is awell recognised complication of undiagnosed ADHD.
Chicken and egg :)


Some of my patients are treated with stimulants and going completely wild and psychotic.
[quote]
My observation- the inattentive symptoms of ADHD often have a kernel of dissociation from a traumatic environment.

A quote for you-- from Dr Gabor Mate, author of "Scattered Minds" and himself an ADHD individual:
http://drgabormate.com/preview/scattered-minds-u-s-scattered-chapter-one/
[quote]
ADD has much to do with pain, present in every one of the adults and children who have come to me for assessment. The deep emotional hurt they carry, each and all, is telegraphed by the downcast, averted eyes, the rapid, meandering flow of speech that seems almost oblivious of the listener, the tense body postures, the tapping feet and fidgety hands, and by the nervous, self-deprecating humour. “Every aspect of my life hurts,” a 37-year old man told me in the course of his second visit to my office. People express surprise when after a brief exchange I seem to be able to sense their pain and grasp their confused and conflicted history of emotions. “I am speaking about myself,” I tell them.


Only too true, I am afraid.

In giving us focus and clarity, stimulants can bring us face to face with the ugly reality of a world in which many of us have been marginalised, despised and rejected for decades, despite our best efforts to be good citizens.

Sometimes, some get caught in a black hole of fury- and, yes some ADHD patients may show psychotic behaviours if the stimulant dosing is not done with care, and with sensitivity towards the suffering of the individual we are working with.

If that happens, and it is not picked up on and managed by the prescribing doctor, then that is due to negligence (failure of "duty of care"), not due to an inherent flaw in the medications.


Lithium make them better but they don't like it because it makes them feel dull. They like getting high and wild.


A little empathy would go a long way here-- "high and wild" may not be the best outcome (in fact certainly is not), but to many new ADHD patients it is better than the chronic depression involved in being the failed human being that everyone likes to blame for being lazy/having a bad attitude.

That is the seductive thing about hypomania-- it is so much better than the (usually) decades of low level depression that precedes it. That shift also makes it hard for us clinicians to handle-- how to we tell someone in the early stages who is starting to finally feel good that we are concerned that their "good feeling" may not be in touch with reality?

However- we live in a truly foul society where lives of chronic depression and "quiet desperation" are regarded as normal, and the capacity to bear up and put on a brave face in the presence of all that is regarded as a mark of good character.

Lunacie
11-19-15, 11:38 AM
You know this post really disturbs me.





It is also not based in fact-- given the extremely high rates of ADHD in displaced and traumatised populations like the native Australians. This is a group of individuals who survived 40,000 years in a harsh environment purely because they were very, very good at paying close attention to the signs of food in their environment. No ADHD there until their world was turned upside down by disease and systematic violation of their property rights and human rights by 6 generations of invaders.

That pattern is not consistent with a genetic/ biochemical explanation.



Hm ... I thought there similarities in the kind of people who invaded/settled both the US and Australia.

Although in the US they came by choice, rejecting dogmatic rules and in Australia they were criminals who were rejected by their home countries.

Both were likely to have ADHD genetics.

Abcdef
11-20-15, 08:32 PM
So I just watched the newest episode of David Eagleman's show "The Brain", and in it he discussed how we as humans make choices. The thing is is that while we are under the illusion that every choice we make is logically calculated by us prior to us making it, the truth is that emotions play a big role as our bodies sometimes know when we are making a bad choice before we are aware of it.

The interesting thing is though that each time we make a choice a dose of dopamine is released in the prefrontal cortex region of our brain, and depending on the amount, the signal gets stronger or weaker. Say if you choose to go to the park with your kid, and you end up having a bad time because it starts to rain and the swings are broken, the amount of dopamine that gets released is ~zero, which inadvertently affects the possibility for that choice to be made in the future in comparison to others (to go to the mall instead of the park, or perhaps the movies, etc.). This is a continuous system that keeps track of every choice we've ever made, and as you probably already guessed, the choices associated with the largest amounts of released dopamine are usually the ones we prefer the most and end up repeating.

So in ADHDs brains this system is broken, resulting in us not being able to continuously make the right choices, be they conscious or unconscious, as the amount of dopamine that gets released is much smaller than it should be. However, because this is a system that continuously keeps track of every choice you have ever made, you could potentially teach your brain to emulate the brain of an ADHD person, by rewarding bad behavior. This is why people get addictions for instance, as the amount of dopamine associated with taking drugs is so high that the brain associates the bad behavior with significant reward which leads to the brain seeking to repeat it. The same goes for spending time on social media, eating like crap, playing video games, etc.

This basically got me thinking, that if you can teach it to make the wrong decisions, you should also be able to teach it to make the RIGHT decisions. And this is probably why behavioral therapy is usually the right way to go at first, because it is impossible to distinguish between learned ADHD and real ADHD. If you cannot teach your brain to make the right choices, then and only then can you know for certain if you have real ADHD or not.

So in the end it all comes down to choice. :cool:

Thoughts?


If you have a dysfunctional brain you do not know you are making the wrong decisions and continue to do so...over and over again.

What meds do is make you AWARE of this and make it more social and functional.

But if you are saying an ADHD person can help this through non medicated choice I'd say your theory is whack! :cool:

Kunga Dorji
11-20-15, 11:14 PM
Hm ... I thought there similarities in the kind of people who invaded/settled both the US and Australia.

Although in the US they came by choice, rejecting dogmatic rules and in Australia they were criminals who were rejected by their home countries.

Both were likely to have ADHD genetics.

I was talking about the Australian aboriginal population- not the immigrant Australian population.

Kunga Dorji
11-20-15, 11:18 PM
If you have a dysfunctional brain you do not know you are making the wrong decisions and continue to do so...over and over again.

What meds do is make you AWARE of this and make it more social and functional.

But if you are saying an ADHD person can help this through non medicated choice I'd say your theory is whack! :cool:


The real issue is that the choices are driven by impulses which are subconscious, and that becoming conscious of the real cause of our impulsive choices is not an easy process---- especially not when we have behavioural therapists telling us to just focus upon outcome focussed behavioural strategies.

When driven strongly by impulse most of us act quite unconsciously
(like going for that third chocolate biscuit) - and we make what "feels to us" like the right decision).

Abcdef
11-20-15, 11:58 PM
The real issue is that the choices are driven by impulses which are subconscious, and that becoming conscious of the real cause of our impulsive choices is not an easy process---- especially not when we have behavioural therapists telling us to just focus upon outcome focussed behavioural strategies.

When driven strongly by impulse most of us act quite unconsciously
(like going for that third chocolate biscuit) - and we make what "feels to us" like the right decision).


Well that may be true in the sense for morbidly obese folks who you have to knock the walls down because they got so big. But how can you stop a racing ADHD mind...just by the power of thought??Not gonna happen without meds and therapy I'm afraid. What you are stating is just mearly the tip of the iceberg of ADHD.

Kunga Dorji
11-21-15, 01:23 AM
Well that may be true in the sense for morbidly obese folks who you have to knock the walls down because they got so big. But how can you stop a racing ADHD mind...just by the power of thought??Not gonna happen without meds and therapy I'm afraid. What you are stating is just mearly the tip of the iceberg of ADHD.



Addiction to thinking is as big a problem as is addiction to chocolate biscuits:

In fact, calming the overactive mind has been a key theme of all significant schools of meditation practice for as long as there have been written records.

-- but then Meditation is a form of therapy, and it needs to be taught correctly.

--- I am not advocating against meds by the way, I still use them myself, when I am clear that I need them. However, if environmental and social disruptions are correctly handled, then meditation is perfectly possible even without medication. It is more a matter of finding the right practice for the right person, and then figuring out some way to make it a habit.

BellaVita
11-21-15, 01:33 AM
-- but then Meditation is a form of therapy, and it needs to be taught correctly.

--- I am not advocating against meds by the way, I still use them myself, when I am clear that I need them. However, if environmental and social disruptions are correctly handled, then meditation is perfectly possible even without medication. It is more a matter of finding the right practice for the right person, and then figuring out some way to make it a habit.

I just want to say first of all I am all for meditation.

However, not everyone is lucky enough to have all environmental and social disruptions correctly handled, some people are forced to live in places where this is not possible. Privilege checks are important.

And even when those things are correctly handled, you are almost assuming all brains are the same, by saying that meditation is perfectly possible even without medication.

I wouldn't say perfectly possible, maybe just possible, because even with everything in order our brains still might fail to respond well to meditation, even with proper practice.

Even if someone picks the right practice, and it works well for them, making it a habit can be very challenging for an unmedicated ADHD'er.

Kunga Dorji
11-21-15, 04:08 AM
I just want to say first of all I am all for meditation.

However, not everyone is lucky enough to have all environmental and social disruptions correctly handled, some people are forced to live in places where this is not possible. Privilege checks are important.

And even when those things are correctly handled, you are almost assuming all brains are the same, by saying that meditation is perfectly possible even without medication.

I wouldn't say perfectly possible, maybe just possible, because even with everything in order our brains still might fail to respond well to meditation, even with proper practice.

Even if someone picks the right practice, and it works well for them, making it a habit can be very challenging for an unmedicated ADHD'er.


If it was not challenging--- it would be boring.
ADHD people "do not/cannot do boring things".
I am sure you must have seen variants of this statement made a million times on a million different ADHD websites.

Watch your mind-- and see what is going on in the gaps between your thoughts :)

Trust me-- that is an interesting practice.

Additionally we all have to take enough responsibility to remove ourselves from intractably turbulent situations.

If we do not, we may, as a result of our own agitation, accidentally harm another person.
(nobody is perfect-- I have done exactly that, many times. I know very well my responsibility to watch my own mind, in order that I avoid harming any other beings).

BellaVita
11-21-15, 04:31 AM
If it was not challenging--- it would be boring.
ADHD people "do not/cannot do boring things".
I am sure you must have seen variants of this statement made a million times on a million different ADHD websites.

Watch your mind-- and see what is going on in the gaps between your thoughts :)

Trust me-- that is an interesting practice.

Additionally we all have to take enough responsibility to remove ourselves from intractably turbulent situations.

If we do not, we may, as a result of our own agitation, accidentally harm another person.
(nobody is perfect-- I have done exactly that, many times. I know very well my responsibility to watch my own mind, in order that I avoid harming any other beings).

I can watch my mind, I have been practicing that for self-awareness.

I am serious when I say I do not believe I have gaps between my thoughts. :eek:

At least, not very observable gaps.

My inner monologue is CONSTANT, always has been, and it keeps me awake every single night for hours.

Lunacie
11-21-15, 12:33 PM
I was talking about the Australian aboriginal population- not the immigrant Australian population.

Sorry. You did say "native" and I missed that.

However, I would suspect that ADHD has always been a part of that population but wasn't a problem until a different culture with different expectations arrived on the scene.

Kunga Dorji
11-21-15, 06:09 PM
Sorry. You did say "native" and I missed that.

However, I would suspect that ADHD has always been a part of that population but wasn't a problem until a different culture with different expectations arrived on the scene.

That's just a guess- effectively retrofitting speculated facts to make them fit a favoured hypothesis.

The aboriginal population now certainly has very high levels of all the co-morbidities of ADHD behaviour- addiction, poverty, obesity, intra family violence to to impulsive outbursts of anger, unplanned pregnancy, low literacy.

However they presented differently to Europeans at the time of Cook's discovery of the eastern coast of Australia- lean, athletic, self possessed.
In fact there are many accounts of just how impressive they were.

So- I am guessing that since the advent of Western civilisation living conditions have deteriorated dramatically and ADHD rates have increased greatly as a result of this.

IE there is no necessary causal link between genes and ADHD.
Genes may predispose, but they require environmental activators.

Kunga Dorji
11-21-15, 06:13 PM
I can watch my mind, I have been practicing that for self-awareness.

I am serious when I say I do not believe I have gaps between my thoughts. :eek:

At least, not very observable gaps.

Keep watching-- it is fun.
The rule is- do not build on a thought by replying with another thought.
Another effective way to do it is to practice repeatedly shifting your attention from thought to another focus--
ie to your breath, to a mantra, to the feel of the soles of your feet touching the ground as you walk


My inner monologue is CONSTANT, always has been, and it keeps me awake every single night for hours.

I know the feeling-- that's what it used to be like for me too.

Lunacie
11-21-15, 07:38 PM
That's just a guess- effectively retrofitting speculated facts to make them fit a favoured hypothesis.

The aboriginal population now certainly has very high levels of all the co-morbidities of ADHD behaviour- addiction, poverty, obesity, intra family violence to to impulsive outbursts of anger, unplanned pregnancy, low literacy.

However they presented differently to Europeans at the time of Cook's discovery of the eastern coast of Australia- lean, athletic, self possessed.
In fact there are many accounts of just how impressive they were.

So- I am guessing that since the advent of Western civilisation living conditions have deteriorated dramatically and ADHD rates have increased greatly as a result of this.

IE there is no necessary causal link between genes and ADHD.
Genes may predispose, but they require environmental activators.

Or maybe ... in certain societal conditions they do not pose any impairment.

Some societies accept that some are different, not all are expected to conform. Like aboriginal or shamanistic societies.

BellaVita
11-21-15, 08:37 PM
Keep watching-- it is fun.
The rule is- do not build on a thought by replying with another thought.
Another effective way to do it is to practice repeatedly shifting your attention from thought to another focus--
ie to your breath, to a mantra, to the feel of the soles of your feet touching the ground as you walk

I do those things, I actually have been getting into guided meditation and that helps greatly.

I know the feeling-- that's what it used to be like for me too.

I have a strong feeling mine is never going to change. :lol:

Abcdef
11-22-15, 02:57 PM
Addiction to thinking is as big a problem as is addiction to chocolate biscuits:

In fact, calming the overactive mind has been a key theme of all significant schools of meditation practice for as long as there have been written records.

-- but then Meditation is a form of therapy, and it needs to be taught correctly.

--- I am not advocating against meds by the way, I still use them myself, when I am clear that I need them. However, if environmental and social disruptions are correctly handled, then meditation is perfectly possible even without medication. It is more a matter of finding the right practice for the right person, and then figuring out some way to make it a habit.

I'm guessing you already know that the main cause of ADHD is a lack of dopamine in the brain, does meditation increase levels of dopamine?

The main factor of racing mind is caused by the lower levels...I find it hard to believe that meditation alone can change your brain chemistry.....or can it?

I'm interested to know as I don't know much about it.

jjamieson
11-22-15, 05:10 PM
You can't choose not to have ADHD. Since ADHD causes some lack in ability in some areas to do some things naturally or automatically without having to make a choice...your only choice is to choose to do things that help make this easier on you.

Reverse that.....it require us to have to make more choices on average since we have more things to have to make choices in. It you choose not to....you will be choosing to make bad choices. Without this natural ability, other people who don't have to make as many choices on a daily basis as we do are not tested in this way to see how well they do since....they don't have to make as many choices as we do.

Therefore? It's all about making choices and choosing wisely..... and we have more to make than everyone else on a daily basis on average. The only choice we don't get to make is the one not to have to make as any choices.

If this is true....the odds are....we will only make more bad choices based on the quantity that we have to make compared to most other people only if you choose to use this as a means to determine that we make more bad choices.

This doesn't address how accurate we are ( or how well we do it) if we only screw up the same % as everyone else. For all you know.....we might be better at making the right choice than most people not worse based on the statistics alone.

Try arguing that to other people? Actually...stop trying to do this. It's a monumental waste of energy and is not a good choice to make! lol

Abcdef
11-22-15, 06:41 PM
This is a tricky one.

So how come with medication you are much more likely to chose the right course of action even though you have not trained your brain to do so. Isn't it more of a chemical imbalance rather than a behavioural issue?

You are right in some sense. With alcohol the more you go without the more you get used to it. But with a racing brain it is more of chemical imbalance that is untreatable without the help of meds.

Meditation, warm baths and candles relax people who do not have ADHD. It's like pouring water onto a bonfire otherwise.

And I take back the thing I said about therapy...I don't believe in it because I've had this issue as long as I could speak...it's in the genes it will never go away you can only remedy it...and if you think you completely cured it, you probably didn't have ADHD in the first place...just my two cents/rupees/pence/euros

N.B good diet and excercise helps but again...not a cure.

jjamieson
11-23-15, 04:29 AM
So how come with medication you are much more likely to chose the right course of action even though you have not trained your brain to do so. Isn't it more of a chemical imbalance rather than a behavioural issue?

Is it further to New York.....or by plane?

If you sit in a car on a movie set with a blue screen besides you....and the blue screen with an exact image of the same room appears as if it's moving across the screen and you are sitting in the car....it will feel like you are moving and the blue screen is stationary. You know you are moving but it feels like you are since your senses are tricked by the fact that you reference for this phenomenon is the car itself and what you know and they have been trained to recognize when something is moving outside the care window...this automatically means you are moving forward in every situation that can possibly be and you know that as fact from your experience with this every time it happens. The fact here is that every time you have witnessed this same thing.....it looks the same and feels the same so you normally would not need any more information to go on to make the right choice instantly with enough time to follow through with a course of action that will save you life.

But you also know what to conclude here because you have previous knowledge in the form of the scientific proven evidence and you know all the variables that come into play here to account for the dependency between what you see and what you feel.

Suddenly....you have to make a decision. The scaffolding above you begins to break free and might kill you if it lands on top of you and you must avoid this at all costs.

Which one is the bad decision here? You only get the choice to take one course of action in the time you have ....but you can make more than one choice?

Here's the list of choices

Do you trust your feelings and senses to tell you what to do?

Do you trust what you know to tell you what to do?

You open the door and dive out of the way because the car isn't moving and you must move instead?

You stay in the car and allow the car to continue moving forward which will move you out of harms ways by the time the scaffolding hits you and the ground?

How many choices do you need to make here to be safe and know what course of action or behavior you need to act on with 100% accuracy?

Why?

Apply your answers to what you said and these questions...

What does the medication really do? Does it change behavior...or does it change brain chemistry?

Is it the lack of dopamine that causes us to behave differently....or the choices we make from having lower dopamine?

Does meditation and relaxation have a direct effect on our behavior....or does it calm the side effect of having lower dopamine which comes in the form of stress and anxiety?

Does therapy change what we know or change brain chemistry?

Does medication change brain chemistry or what we know?

Does meditation change what we know, how we feel or brain chemistry.

How many variables do you have here.

How many decisions do you have to choose from to arrive at the one right answer.

How many decisions are involved to arrive at one right answer?

How many questions need to answered first in the form of a precondition of knowledge before you can make one right decision and know you will have the correct answer?

I'll give you a clue here....... If you were still sitting in the car facing immanent death and the scaffolding is coming down towards your head....

What is the single most important variable that you need to know the answer to in that scenario...... that you cannot live without to arrive at the one right decision and one right course of action that will save your life?

What choice or course of action would you make if you woke up and found yourself inside a car and didn't know you were on a movie set with a blue screen with a moving video of the room moving across it and you only saw the scaffolding coming at you and you instantly reacted and jumped to the first conclusion you make based only on what you see and what it feels like whether you have anxiety about this situation or not?

Are you alive or dead and did you make the right choice base solely on the last scenario I just gave? Are you 100% sure? Take the time to figure out the last question and double check your answer if you cannot say without 100% accuracy. "Yes...I am sure instantly and see the answer to this riddle clearly and did not have to pause and think about it without going back and double checking my answer."

Is there still something missing? Is it further to New York.....or by plane? Answer this riddle and you will have your answer.

jjamieson
11-23-15, 05:16 AM
One more brain teaser here to help fill in the gaps. Either that or it will make you even more confused?

A favorite of mine that I have used to force customers to see the quandary in what they are asking from you between the time it takes to perform the work and how long they have to wait to receive their item (time is money), the price they are paying for it and the quality of the work performed which takes longer the better the quality in order to make this distinction since the customer wants something that they cannot have and cannot understand why they can't have what they are asking you for?

Instead of saying you cannot have what you want....you give them a choice instead. Here are the choices.....

You can have it done fast (pick up tomorrow instead of 4 days from now.)

You can have it done cheap (at a discount off the normal price )

You can have it done to the highest standard of quality and perfection.


But you only get to choose two of these 3 variables

Abcdef
11-25-15, 04:25 PM
Riddle me this, riddle me that....

Sorry too many variables in you questions....not enough dopamine in my brain to cope with it....

Abcdef
11-25-15, 06:44 PM
I can see where you are coming from....but we are not always faced with a choice in life, sometimes things cannot be helped.....

I take it you are not on any meds?!

Kunga Dorji
11-25-15, 11:14 PM
I'm guessing you already know that the main cause of ADHD is a lack of dopamine in the brain, does meditation increase levels of dopamine?

The main factor of racing mind is caused by the lower levels...I find it hard to believe that meditation alone can change your brain chemistry.....or can it?

I'm interested to know as I don't know much about it.

The "dopamine hypothesis" is part of a broader group of "neurotransmitter based hypotheses that have now been rejected as overly simplistic.

Current models of ADHD are more directed at looking at networked brain activity, and the neuroplastic development of preferred default network regimens.

We are also clear that neuroplasticity based interventions can alter the default pathways that are activated, and thus can correct the situation.

Equally we are now clear that the problem is more of subcortical origin than of cortical origin,

and the major networks involved are the fronto-striatal system-- of which the neurones originating in the striatum are dopaminergic,

and the loops between the cerebellum and contralateral cerebral hemisphere. (Cerebellum---> thalamus----> cerebral hemisphere---->pons----cerebellum )
The majority of these loops are not dopaminergic.

However these loops when underactive will lead to an underactivity in the cerebral hemisphere that may partially be corrected by stimulation of other feedback loops involving other neurotransmitters.

For clarification of the subcortical origins of ADHD, I would recommend these 2 books:
There is a useful basis for understanding this in the books
“ADHD as a model of brain/behaviour relationships” Koziol, L. Budding, DE and Chikidel, D.
and "Subcortical Structures and Cognition". Koziol, L. & Budding D.E.

However, in short, there is no real evidence to support the hypothesis that a "dopamine deficiency" is the cause of ADHD- though that model still hangs around simply though the weight of published opinions.

I have gone into some length to investigate this-- and whenever i have looked at a paper that asserts the dopamine hypothesis, I have never been able to trace it back to anything other than another paper referencing some other paper.

ie The hypothesis has become accepted wisdom through repetition-- not through solid research.

Certainly some individuals may have differences in dopamine production or in dopamine receptor density-- but these do not necessarily lead to ADHD--

as can safely be concluded from the fact that no twin study has ever shown more than a 71% rate of ADHD diagnosis in both twins.

IE - within the subset of genetically identical twins reared in different environments many twins do not have ADHD despite the fact that their twin does.

Kunga Dorji
11-25-15, 11:23 PM
Does meditation and relaxation have a direct effect on our behavior....or does it calm the side effect of having lower dopamine which comes in the form of stress and anxiety?

Does therapy change what we know or change brain chemistry?

Does medication change brain chemistry or what we know?

Does meditation change what we know, how we feel or brain chemistry.



We do have answers on meditation:
When done for at least 30 minutes a day for 8 weeks it has been shown to produce measurable increases in grey matter density in at least the hippocampus (memory), the insula (self awareness of our internal state) and the anterior cingulate gyrus-- (volitional placement of attention).

Meditation not only produces relaxation it trains the individual to become adept at recognising and self managing his arousal state.

Settling sympathetic hyperarousal will always improve attentional performance and high stress will always worsen it.

Skilled meditators also have higher oxytocin levels-- another important part of the attention equation.

One of the key improvements produced by effective meditation training is also better impulse control.

This is all now well enough proven by enough studies to be uncontroversial.

The main issue in ADHD is upskilling enough meditation teachers to deal specifically with some of the common barriers experienced in the early stages of meditation training by ADHD individuals.

Teaching meditation to individuals with ADHD is not the same a s teaching it to just anybody.

Kunga Dorji
11-25-15, 11:31 PM
This is a tricky one.

So how come with medication you are much more likely to chose the right course of action even though you have not trained your brain to do so. Isn't it more of a chemical imbalance rather than a behavioural issue?

You are right in some sense. With alcohol the more you go without the more you get used to it. But with a racing brain it is more of chemical imbalance that is untreatable without the help of meds.

Meditation, warm baths and candles relax people who do not have ADHD. It's like pouring water onto a bonfire otherwise.

And I take back the thing I said about therapy...I don't believe in it because I've had this issue as long as I could speak...it's in the genes it will never go away you can only remedy it...and if you think you completely cured it, you probably didn't have ADHD in the first place...just my two cents/rupees/pence/euros

N.B good diet and excercise helps but again...not a cure.

Meditation is not about relaxation-- it is more about training in continuous self awareness and deepening self regulation skills. It is teachable even to people with ADHD,so long as your teacher is skilled enough to help his individual patient/student overcome the particular barriers that are an obstacle for that person.

The biggest barrier really is keeping the ADHD individual to a set program that ensures he gets enough practice to make a difference.


My experience is that most people with ADHD learn to meditate faster with medication than without.

However it is known that stimulants produce unambiguous improvements in learning ability in all people treated with them who can tolerate them-- even non ADHD individuals.

ref:


<li id="cite_note-Unambiguous_PFC_D1_A2-39">Spencer RC, Devilbiss DM, Berridge CW (June 2015). "The Cognition-Enhancing Effects of Psychostimulants Involve Direct Action in the Prefrontal Cortex". Biol. Psychiatry 77 (11): 940–950. doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1016/j.biopsych.2014.09.013 (https://dx.doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.biopsych.2014.09.013). PMID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 25499957 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25499957). The procognitive actions of psychostimulants are only associated with low doses. Surprisingly, despite nearly 80 years of clinical use, the neurobiology of the procognitive actions of psychostimulants has only recently been systematically investigated. Findings from this research unambiguously demonstrate that the cognition-enhancing effects of psychostimulants involve the preferential elevation of catecholamines in the PFC and the subsequent activation of norepinephrine α2 and dopamine D1 receptors. ... This differential modulation of PFC-dependent processes across dose appears to be associated with the differential involvement of noradrenergic α2 versus α1 receptors. Collectively, this evidence indicates that at low, clinically relevant doses, psychostimulants are devoid of the behavioral and neurochemical actions that define this class of drugs and instead act largely as cognitive enhancers (improving PFC-dependent function). This information has potentially important clinical implications as well as relevance for public health policy regarding the widespread clinical use of psychostimulants and for the development of novel pharmacologic treatments for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder and other conditions associated with PFC dysregulation. <li id="cite_note-Cognitive_and_motivational_effects-40">
Ilieva IP, Hook CJ, Farah MJ (January 2015). "Prescription Stimulants' Effects on Healthy Inhibitory Control, Working Memory, and Episodic Memory: A Meta-analysis". J. Cogn. Neurosci.: 1–21. doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1162/jocn_a_00776 (https://dx.doi.org/10.1162%2Fjocn_a_00776). PMID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 25591060 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25591060).

Kunga Dorji
11-26-15, 10:38 PM
Or maybe ... in certain societal conditions they do not pose any impairment.

Some societies accept that some are different, not all are expected to conform. Like aboriginal or shamanistic societies.

No-- the ADHD impairments I see are so sever that they would be lethal in that environment.

The real issue is that the environment of Western civilisation is inherently harmful to human health and that turns a genetic trait into a gene environment interaction that creates disease and disorder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks2TpEqrfjQ

SB_UK
11-27-15, 07:35 AM
No-- the ADHD impairments I see are so sever that they would be lethal in that environment.

The real issue is that the environment of Western civilisation is inherently harmful to human health and that turns a genetic trait into a gene environment interaction that creates disease and disorder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks2TpEqrfjQ

^^^ KD speaks the truth.

Whatever represents the intrinsic/heritable nature of ADD (no point in discussing whether it's in the gene, epigene, neurone or neurone assembly) - everything goes wrong when you put it in this nonsense world.

All self-respecting ADDers simply want to hit all other people on the head with a relatively inflexible spongey cricket bat whilst screaming 'desist - it's just not cricket'.

SB_UK
11-27-15, 08:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks2TpEqrfjQ

excellent ^^^

- and he literally is makign this point.

"All self-respecting ADDers simply want to hit all other people on the head with a relatively inflexible spongey cricket bat whilst screaming 'desist - it's just not cricket'."

Note - John Ratey advocates running away from cats and sleeping next to dogs. Of course I concur.

Dogs rule.

Abi
11-27-15, 09:48 AM
I love cats.

Kunga Dorji
11-27-15, 06:09 PM
I love cats.

So do I- except when they demand feeding at ungodly hours.
Dogs are good too.

daveddd
11-27-15, 06:10 PM
So do I- except when they demand feeding at ungodly hours.
Dogs are good too.

dogs are cool bro

Kunga Dorji
11-27-15, 06:11 PM
^^^ KD speaks the truth.

Whatever represents the intrinsic/heritable nature of ADD (no point in discussing whether it's in the gene, epigene, neurone or neurone assembly) - everything goes wrong when you put it in this nonsense world.

Where I come from " ADD" is technically a "compounded thing" subject to impermanence. It is a complex of causes and effects that, when they come together produce a third phenomenon-- sort of like the spot where 3 different coloured lights overlap.

Once you work with that model, and start to tease apart the streams of cause and effect, you can unravel it, before the unravelling of the attachment of your consciousness to your body that we call death.

This is why mindfulness and concentration is so important- and the concentration granted by stimulants is a tool that we should not be afraid to use- but we need to use it well.

SB_UK
11-28-15, 02:48 AM
dogs are cool bro
I'm having a recurring dream of a man entering a shed and a dog entering a wooden kennel (within the shed), gazing at one another in a state of profound bliss.

^^^ John Ratey's modern day 're-wilding' since the shed is as close to a cave as we're going to get

(the materialistic cats're are on the sofa, in a centrally heated house with a large bowl of cream - also in a a state of deep contentment; they're even both purring)

SB_UK
11-28-15, 03:10 AM
Where I come from " ADD" is technically a "compounded thing" subject to impermanence. It is a complex of causes and effects that, when they come together produce a third phenomenon-- sort of like the spot where 3 different coloured lights overlap.

Once you work with that model, and start to tease apart the streams of cause and effect, you can unravel it, before the unravelling of the attachment of your consciousness to your body that we call death.

This is why mindfulness and concentration is so important- and the concentration granted by stimulants is a tool that we should not be afraid to use- but we need to use it well.

The 5 year old child's guide to ADHD.

No need to pay attention - bored listening to a teacher drone on - zone out - inattentive ADHD.
Need to pay attention to - bored listening to a teacher drone on - fidget - hyperactive ADHD.

You need to be interested in whatever somebody's going on about to pay attention.
'Fear' isn't a useful stick to make an individual pay attention - as in ADHD - 'the harder the ADDer forces his/her mind against its will - the more the ADDer fails'.

In a study environment - what happens is - forced studying results in hours spent over books - passing by in an instant in which absolutely nothing has 'gone in'.

It literally feels as though 'forcing attention' drives the mind straight into daydream operation.
This must be stress mediated ie when we're running from a large hungry cat - blood is ro-routed away from the brain.
The natural consequence would be that learning must occur in a distress free environment (ideally where the individual is having fun learning).

How can you make learning facts that the individual does not need in life interesting ?
Exactly - there's a core defect at the heart of education - which reflects the point of education.

-*-

Why ? does all of this happen
Different maturation rates mean that it's like puttting a 5 year old in a classroom for 8 year olds - failure is inevitable.

An individual's interest must be defined by the individual's mental age - failure to acheive a match must result in boredom - or at the very best - failure in learning.

-*-

What is learning meant to achieve ?
Happiness not a large bucket load of transiently stored facts.

What's the best way to ensure that information is housed within the mind ?
To ensure that the information housed makes sense. It then just sticks.

So - a 'makes sense' model which leads to human happiness via nothing more complicated than a 'makes sense' model for telling right from wrong where wrong is defined as net detriment to the connected environment of life.
We can then develop excellence in a field of endeavour which we know is of species benefit - allowing us to feel a natural sense of reward when we engage - and ADDers suffer from just 1 problem - absence of reward from current daily (KD's comments above) living.

How can you make learning facts that the individual does not need in life interesting ?
Exactly - there's a core defect at the heart of education - which reflects the point of education.
But that's (telling right from wrong and then delivering excellence in 'right') not what education is designed to deliver ?
Exactly.

Our educational system simply partitions individuals with a faster grasp of natural language into a higher set labelled 'high earners' - and the rest are discarded - of particular relevance to the entire set of learning difficulty children who're discared in the process.
Current observation (in our kids) - fast-track language acquirers can excel in any of the currently defined 'academic' areas - where these represent just 1 area - the capacity to accept 'rules' - a bit like playing a game.

What we need is for an individual to tell 'right from wrong' and to seize personal motivation / reward into achieving excellence in 'right' in the case of ADHD - so that the naturally forthcoming dopaminergic system activation reflects itself in the capacity to pay attention.

-*-

More complicated though (in a good way) -
because when we acquire this property (in middle-age at the earliest)
"So - a 'makes sense' model which leads to human happiness via nothing more complicated than a 'makes sense' model for telling right from wrong where wrong is defined as net detriment to the connected environment of life."
- we've actually achieved all that the mind wants - and so no longer actually even need to beat ourselves up over achieving excellence etc ... ... keys to the door - we've accomplished the intended goal of mind by doing something completely (kinda') different.

A bit like falling off a (small) cliff and landing on your head curing a headache; you'd never have thought it.

-*-

Simply suggesting that the academic industry's tendency to take an imbalanced child ie excellence in one thing and make them an expert in that one thing - accomplishes precisely the opposite to what the mind wants - which is a global overview.

So - the adage a 'jack of all trades' trumps 'a master of one' - though a master of one is not precluded **after** atttaining jack status.
Jack of all trades - a sufficient global perspective of reality to attain morality.

-*-

Finally - imbalance (distance from morality) drives the individual into 'reward' from competition - and so the individual that arises in our current educational system - wants as much as possible for themself and nothing for other people.

The core issue in ADDer - is that this reward system does not work ie does not provide sufficient reward to power operation and causes us stress.
As KD menions - this policy leads to distress which results in inflammation and all downstream disorders of Western living.

The ADDer mind is more 'make sense' dependent (described previously) and so is less capable of storing local 'not make sense' (to gain wealth forsaking all but self) models ie can see inconsistencies in this approach which prevent immersion.
Resulting in distress.

-*-

Core issue in ADDer then - a predisposition towards a different reward system which represents a social reward system of personal betterment for social gain.
It sounds like a no-brainer that all people should be operating over this reward system - but as evidenced by the remarkable (ALL!!) people who operate happily in this current world - net species benefit is not a consideration - and is not required to be a consideration.

-*-

And - so - ADHD - in a sense Re: Is ADHD really about choice? is about removing the choice to take either a non-socially beneficial vs socially beneficial route in life - and leaves us - albeit worse off in having lost a choice - better off - in that that choice is not a useful choice to be able to be made. A bit like the ability to decide not to breathe - the choice can only lead to a dark place - when we forget we've the choice and forget to breath one day.

SB_UK
11-28-15, 04:01 AM
So I just watched the newest episode of David Eagleman's show "The Brain", and in it he discussed how we as humans make choices. The thing is is that while we are under the illusion that every choice we make is logically calculated by us prior to us making it, the truth is that emotions play a big role as our bodies sometimes know when we are making a bad choice before we are aware of it.

The interesting thing is though that each time we make a choice a dose of dopamine is released in the prefrontal cortex region of our brain, and depending on the amount, the signal gets stronger or weaker. Say if you choose to go to the park with your kid, and you end up having a bad time because it starts to rain and the swings are broken, the amount of dopamine that gets released is ~zero, which inadvertently affects the possibility for that choice to be made in the future in comparison to others (to go to the mall instead of the park, or perhaps the movies, etc.). This is a continuous system that keeps track of every choice we've ever made, and as you probably already guessed, the choices associated with the largest amounts of released dopamine are usually the ones we prefer the most and end up repeating.

[deleted paragraph]

This basically got me thinking, that if you can teach it to make the wrong decisions, you should also be able to teach it to make the RIGHT decisions. And this is probably why behavioral therapy is usually the right way to go at first, because it is impossible to distinguish between learned ADHD and real ADHD. If you cannot teach your brain to make the right choices, then and only then can you know for certain if you have real ADHD or not.

So in the end it all comes down to choice. :cool:

Thoughts?

Excellent

'personal gratification' in the absence of the consideration of others reward system
+
mind (of morality)
->
'personal gratification' in the presence of the consideration of others reward system

Both systems involve a logic and emotion - 'cept the one with a mind (wisdom) represents the one we're meant to be using.

The other one just generates a world of conveyancing lawyers, mortgage advisors and private medics - who really aren't required in the lovely world that medical and social epidemiologists dream about when they're not ticking boxes on their clipboards.

(it is important to offend all people equally :))

-*-

You're meant to feel bad if you make the world a more unpleasant place - the adder just can't not see this noting that the adder's incapacity not to see all of this can be itself decapitated by holistic failure to learn in an inflexible educational system or more simply [and in metaphor] teachers have become gifted at lodging a javelin in the third eye special to ADDer childeen.

So - the take away line is that Western style education decapacitates 'incapacity' capacity.

-*-

This basically got me thinking, that if you can teach it to make the wrong decisions, you should also be able to teach it to make the RIGHT decisions.

So in the end it all comes down to choice. :cool:Exactly in a few simple words - to teach - all we need is a different 'to teach' system as detailed above; to support a different motivation to learn of personal betterment not personal material standing.
Personal standing is completely lost once you're lying in your coffin personal betterment reflected in planetary improvement (no matter how small) will however remain.

Kunga Dorji
11-28-15, 09:21 AM
The 5 year old child's guide to ADHD.

No need to pay attention - bored listening to a teacher drone on - zone out - inattentive ADHD.
Need to pay attention to - bored listening to a teacher drone on - fidget - hyperactive ADHD.

You need to be interested in whatever somebody's going on about to pay attention.


Sometimes one needs to be interested in the skill of deliberate placement of one's attention-- just for the value of learning the skill.
The untamed mind is one's worst enemy.
Tamed, the mind is ones best friend.


However the symptoms you describe above usually have little to do with the actual content of what is being taught.

ie hyperativity:
Prof Stephen Porges:

P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } If we observe children in a classroom, we see a variety of behavioural features that illustrate that some children are safe and can sit comfortably in the same situations that trigger in other children the hypervigilant behaviours characterising a lack of safety.
Moreover, the children who are chronically monitoring the room for danger cues are the same children who have difficulties in learning, while those with the features of feeling safe can attend to the teacher and learn efficiently.

Somatic perspectives in Psychotherapy interview.
http://stephenporges.com/index.php/scientific-articles/publicationss/28-somatic-perspectives-on-psychotherapy-interview

The bulk of the time ADHD behaviours in the classroom have very little to do with the material being presented in class. They have more to do with a resting physiological state marked by sympathetic nervous system hyperarousal and the commandeering of "attention" by subcortically driven impulses.

daveddd
11-28-15, 10:14 AM
Sometimes one needs to be interested in the skill of deliberate placement of one's attention-- just for the value of learning the skill.
The untamed mind is one's worst enemy.
Tamed, the mind is ones best friend.


However the symptoms you describe above usually have little to do with the actual content of what is being taught.

ie hyperativity:
Prof Stephen Porges:

Somatic perspectives in Psychotherapy interview.
http://stephenporges.com/index.php/scientific-articles/publicationss/28-somatic-perspectives-on-psychotherapy-interview

The bulk of the time ADHD behaviours in the classroom have very little to do with the material being presented in class. They have more to do with a resting physiological state marked by sympathetic nervous system hyperarousal and the commandeering of "attention" by subcortically driven impulses.

"resting physiological state marked by sympathetic nervous system

hyperarousal"


could this lead to a almost constant state of parasympathetic shutdown?

SB_UK
11-28-15, 11:56 AM
from KD+DD

Lack of interest -> Discomfort/Flight reaction (I really don't want to be here) -> SNS hyperarousal -> SNS resistance -> PNS shutdown (incapacity to relax in class) -> Autonomic dysfunction -> Impedes capacity to learn regardless of interest in material

I don't think we can learn unless we're both acutely (interested in what's bein taught) and chronically (not threatened with reprisals from day 1 in the classroom) relaxed.

So - even the most interesting presentation will fall on deaf ears in the chronically distressed.
Even the most chronically :-) relaxed individual will fail to learn in a stunningly dull presentation.

SB_UK
11-28-15, 12:07 PM
What I'm observing in children are kids that either can't keep up, that learn because they're told to (and want to be the best in their class) but aren't at all interested in what they're being told - and kids that learn because they're scared of being shouted at by their teachers - these're the 3 patterns represented in the 3 kids I know best.

There's 1 model missing.

Learning which has the kids yearning for more - should be possible by turning learning into word and number games ... ... ... a form of learning where we become better the more we practice as opposed to simply dumping transient gains following examination.

Kunga Dorji
11-28-15, 04:24 PM
from KD+DD

Lack of interest -> Discomfort/Flight reaction (I really don't want to be here) -> SNS hyperarousal -> SNS resistance -> PNS shutdown (incapacity to relax in class) -> Autonomic dysfunction -> Impedes capacity to learn regardless of interest in material

I don't think we can learn unless we're both acutely (interested in what's bein taught) and chronically (not threatened with reprisals from day 1 in the classroom) relaxed.

So - even the most interesting presentation will fall on deaf ears in the chronically distressed.
Even the most chronically :-) relaxed individual will fail to learn in a stunningly dull presentation.


However ADHD symptoms often occur in the absence of "boring stimuli".

No, the autonomic dysregulation in ADHD stems from underlying cerebello-vestibular dysfunction.

It can be demonstrated quite easily with a thorough neurological examination.

Much of the difficult dynamic in the classroom comes as the confused teacher attempts to manage ADHD symptomatology using traditional classroom discipline- and leads into a fruitless battle.

Kunga Dorji
11-28-15, 04:25 PM
"resting physiological state marked by sympathetic nervous system

hyperarousal"


could this lead to a almost constant state of parasympathetic shutdown?
yes

fight flight is but a step away from freeze

Kunga Dorji
11-28-15, 09:04 PM
The 5 year old child's guide to ADHD.

No need to pay attention - bored listening to a teacher drone on - zone out - inattentive ADHD.
Need to pay attention to - bored listening to a teacher drone on - fidget - hyperactive ADHD.

You need to be interested in whatever somebody's going on about to pay attention.
'Fear' isn't a useful stick to make an individual pay attention - as in ADHD - 'the harder the ADDer forces his/her mind against its will - the more the ADDer fails'.

In a study environment - what happens is - forced studying results in hours spent over books - passing by in an instant in which absolutely nothing has 'gone in'.

It literally feels as though 'forcing attention' drives the mind straight into daydream operation.
This must be stress mediated ie when we're running from a large hungry cat - blood is ro-routed away from the brain.
The natural consequence would be that learning must occur in a distress free environment (ideally where the individual is having fun learning).

How can you make learning facts that the individual does not need in life interesting ?
Exactly - there's a core defect at the heart of education - which reflects the point of education.

-*-

Why ? does all of this happen
Different maturation rates mean that it's like puttting a 5 year old in a classroom for 8 year olds - failure is inevitable.

An individual's interest must be defined by the individual's mental age - failure to acheive a match must result in boredom - or at the very best - failure in learning.

-*-

What is learning meant to achieve ?
Happiness not a large bucket load of transiently stored facts.

What's the best way to ensure that information is housed within the mind ?
To ensure that the information housed makes sense. It then just sticks.

So - a 'makes sense' model which leads to human happiness via nothing more complicated than a 'makes sense' model for telling right from wrong where wrong is defined as net detriment to the connected environment of life.
We can then develop excellence in a field of endeavour which we know is of species benefit - allowing us to feel a natural sense of reward when we engage - and ADDers suffer from just 1 problem - absence of reward from current daily (KD's comments above) living.

But that's (telling right from wrong and then delivering excellence in 'right') not what education is designed to deliver ?
Exactly.

Our educational system simply partitions individuals with a faster grasp of natural language into a higher set labelled 'high earners' - and the rest are discarded - of particular relevance to the entire set of learning difficulty children who're discared in the process.
Current observation (in our kids) - fast-track language acquirers can excel in any of the currently defined 'academic' areas - where these represent just 1 area - the capacity to accept 'rules' - a bit like playing a game.

What we need is for an individual to tell 'right from wrong' and to seize personal motivation / reward into achieving excellence in 'right' in the case of ADHD - so that the naturally forthcoming dopaminergic system activation reflects itself in the capacity to pay attention.

-*-

More complicated though (in a good way) -
because when we acquire this property (in middle-age at the earliest)

- we've actually achieved all that the mind wants - and so no longer actually even need to beat ourselves up over achieving excellence etc ... ... keys to the door - we've accomplished the intended goal of mind by doing something completely (kinda') different.

A bit like falling off a (small) cliff and landing on your head curing a headache; you'd never have thought it.

-*-

Simply suggesting that the academic industry's tendency to take an imbalanced child ie excellence in one thing and make them an expert in that one thing - accomplishes precisely the opposite to what the mind wants - which is a global overview.

So - the adage a 'jack of all trades' trumps 'a master of one' - though a master of one is not precluded **after** atttaining jack status.
Jack of all trades - a sufficient global perspective of reality to attain morality.

-*-

Finally - imbalance (distance from morality) drives the individual into 'reward' from competition - and so the individual that arises in our current educational system - wants as much as possible for themself and nothing for other people.

The core issue in ADDer - is that this reward system does not work ie does not provide sufficient reward to power operation and causes us stress.
As KD menions - this policy leads to distress which results in inflammation and all downstream disorders of Western living.

The ADDer mind is more 'make sense' dependent (described previously) and so is less capable of storing local 'not make sense' (to gain wealth forsaking all but self) models ie can see inconsistencies in this approach which prevent immersion.
Resulting in distress.

-*-

Core issue in ADDer then - a predisposition towards a different reward system which represents a social reward system of personal betterment for social gain.
It sounds like a no-brainer that all people should be operating over this reward system - but as evidenced by the remarkable (ALL!!) people who operate happily in this current world - net species benefit is not a consideration - and is not required to be a consideration.

-*-



Hi SB, I'm sorry, but I am going to challenge your basic hypothesis here.

The trouble is that ADHD is not "all about reward" at all- that is an oversimplification created by a primitive understanding of the relationship between dopamine and the "reward system" and also by conflation of "ADHD" with dopamine deficiency based on the fact that stimulants improve the functioning of most ADHD people.

Both of these explanations are "post hoc" inventions designed to explain the observed phenomena, and they were explanations constructed by individuals who had a primitive understanding of the limited neurological information available at the time.

We now have clear information that the current neurologically based functions are impaired in ADHD:

Balance
Co- ordination- both gross motor, fine motor and oculomotor
Regulation of muscle tone

In fact most of the Reward based problems in ADHD come from basic issues derived from these central problems.

Our clumsiness and poor eye coordination put us at a disadvantage in the standard school environment.
Everything is harder for us- and intrinsically less rewarding.
Reading is harder and more tiring, and more taxing to executive function.
We look stupid when we are not.

look at this paper:
http://behavioralandbrainfunctions.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1744-9081-5-22


Key points:
poor balance leads to postural instability and overreliance on large muscle groups like iliopsoas, latissimus dorsi and sacrospinalis.

Far from being a more metabolically efficient organism-- this chronic tension in large muscle groups is metabolically grossly wasteful.

In addition it is tiring:
from the paper:

Our observations, however, revealed motor problems associated not only with fine motor adjustment, but also with regulation of gross movements e.g. synkinesis [7 (http://behavioralandbrainfunctions.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1744-9081-5-22#CR7)], and with the stabilization of the trunk. The children made a mess while eating, and were frequently and involuntarily bumping into things. Many had problems performing certain athletic sports [6 (http://behavioralandbrainfunctions.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1744-9081-5-22#CR6)], lacking bounce when walking and running, and became more easily tired and exhausted than peers. At school we observed that the children often rested their upper body on the desk, supporting the head, or would frequently slide down on the chair into a leaning position. The children were often described by parents and teachers as being distracted, unmotivated, disobedient, aggressive, destructive or uncooperative.


However, once you are labelled as such, that does affect people's attitudes to you, and the classroom becomes a place of threat.

In addition the balance impairments also drive a level of stress and make one more prone to perceive threat where there is none.

You are correct though that there is a relevance deficiency in the classroom. These kids need a school structure with much more exercise and physical training so they can make up for the key developmental deficiencies underpinning their symptoms. Just as John Ratey advocetes in all his work.

However - dopamine does much more than regulate the "reward system".

from the same paper:

Dopamine acts as a key neurotransmitter in the brain. Numerous studies have shown its regulatory role in motor functions
(Nieoullon A: Dopamine and the regulation of cognition and attention. Prog Neurobiol. 2002, 67 (1): 53-83. 10.1016/S0301-0082(02)00011-4.)
[quote]

Parkinson's is, after all, defined as a movement disorder.

So- effects of stimulants on movement:
[quote]
The children with ADHD also displayed increased muscle tone in the gross movement muscles (e.g. m. Iliopsoas and m. Latissimus dorsi) restricting movements of shoulders, arms and thorax. In most cases we found little or no training effect even after prolonged training periods focusing on the special tasks involved in the subtests. We also observed marked improvements in performance on the MFNU 1 1/2 hour after administration of central stimulants (methylphenidate, MPH). When the physiological effect of the stimulant subsided, the motor problems returned undiminished. We observed this pattern even in individuals who had been medicated with MPH for many years


Note that tolerance to this effect does not develop.
Nice to know.

However, with a little neurological training we can see that the proposed mechanism of "improved inhibition" reducing tone in the large muscle
groups is actually nonsense.

The increased muscle tension is due to increased excitatory input into those muscles as a response to stiffen up due to the balance impairments.

Where exactly the MPH (methylphenidate) acts to improve the vestibular system I do not know.

So- sure there are problems with poor teaching practices and needing to learn irrelevant rubbish-- but the real problems go much deeper than that.

SB_UK
12-16-15, 01:34 PM
The children with ADHD also displayed increased muscle tone in the gross movement muscles

This is really interesting - I am physically inflexible - in a perpetual state of many muscle groups entering cramp.

SB_UK
12-16-15, 01:40 PM
Do you remember when you first took dexedrine ?
It was an immense sense of relief / relaxation that was felt.

What if we're simply under a chronic state of stress which we can't gain insight into as we're under it constantly and have never known life without it -

dexedrine initially puts s back into the state that we're meant to be in, in daily life.

And finally that the excess muscular tone is simply the effects of stress/SNS chronic activation on muscles - set 24/7 to fight/flight ?

What's so stressful about life ?
Whenever I talk to people - I'm pretty sure that other people maybe all are trying to 'sell' you something for their own personal gain - where what they're 'selling' might be a view-point ie to win you over onto their particular perspective. To feel as if they're somebody by winning over external observers - it's almost as if people want you to pat them on the head and tell them how good they are - with the subtext being - that they're so unsure of themselves that they need others to supply the self-confidence they lack.

SB_UK
12-16-15, 02:16 PM
Tying into a previous point - what if failure to obtain reward in daily life is the essential equivalent to being under distress ie 'natural reward' or 'distress'
- the reason this idea makes 'things' easier to understand is that although people won't be able to see that they're not under distress - most will see that they're not 'naturally rewarded' by their lives.

Making 'not obtaining natural reward' == distress could prove a useful idea.

Another way of putting it - 'd be that we tend towards disease (stress borne inflammation) if we're not having fun (natural reward).

^^^ that's definitely right you know

define 'fun' - becoming better at something that matters.
what 'matters' - improving some aspect of the collective environment - at any level

SB_UK
12-16-15, 03:30 PM
So - the root basis to the diseases of Western living simply relates to people not having fun.

That's a perfect solution.

SB_UK
12-17-15, 04:39 AM
^^^ and a classical reason why medical research is not useful.

It can't come up with that conclusion.

Will only ever list a trillion confounded statistically significant associations between disease and factor x,y,z.

At best statistically significant - - clinically insignificant (Namazu).

-- (all that's required for significance is to ignore or not be aware of confoundign factors)

Classic example - if all Western style communities subject their citizens to unacceptable levels of stress - then no study involving Western or even poor communtiies (where there's a different type of stress) - can identify that it's the stress of existence (in Western societies relating to mode of social (competitive,abusive) interaction (which prevents the pursuit of personal excellence as we have to descend the educational, housing and workplace ladders to survive - which together lead us into a low intrinsic quality which reflects itself in a low quality of life - the pursuit of addictive drugs instead of personal improvement for the sake of enjoying the personally improved state)) which gives rise to disease.

Problem is - is that you have to think about it.

All we need do is take the idea of - cerebellar automatising ie becoming intrinsically better eg riding a bike - and seeing that the educational, housing and workplace ladders don't make us intrinsically (cerebellar automatising) better - just 'richer' where (and this is the criminal aspect of words) - 'richer' actually means 'poorer' from an objective perspective ie we become lazier - where personal effort (ie to practice at something you love) is the price we're keen to pay - in the pursuit of personal improvement.

A life of pointlessness simply drives us to self-medication and we simply grow lazy on computer games, fast food, cigarettes and central heating -
not intrinsically better but worse.

'rich' in wealth means 'poor' in personal quality since the path of wealth opens the door to adddictive reward exposure as opposed to personal betterment reward exposure through (personal and enjoyable) effort.

How does an individual become better in a world characterized by financially backed inequality ?
You can't - in a defined society of inequality - it's impossible to become personally better - because the individual's life will be required to be compatible, most likely suport social inequality.
Individually better needs to run alongside Collective betterment - otherwise you're not actually becoming better.
All for one and one for all.The sole method for personal improvement (ie fun) to become the default choice of man - would be for people to arrange into very p/t essential needs co-operatives, to support the generation of the little that people need to acquire in order to survive - 1 house build time a few weeks and food - little to no effort required if we work together ... ... and then all people 'paying' their way - we do whatever we want - even if what we want to do is nothing.

Thing is though - who'd choose nothing ? That sounds terribly boring.

Note - that we'll rescue schooling at the same time as only teachers that want to teach and students that want to learn will be found in the new edicational system.
Only people who want to work will be found in the new workplace.
And your house is yours for as long as you want it before moving to any other destination ie we simply swap accommodation when we realise that we want to live a life in the sun.

All of which means

Re: Is ADHD really about choice?that ADHD is all about choice triumphing over co-ercion.

SB_UK
12-17-15, 05:03 AM
Note - that we'll rescue schooling at the same time as only teachers that want to teach and students that want to learn will be found in the new edicational system.
Only people who want to work will be found in the new workplace.
And your house is yours for as long as you want it before moving to any other destination ie we simply swap accommodation when we realise that we want to live a life in the sun.


--- So - in a world without money ---

So - watching a typical workplace (a school)
... ... and it's characterized by:

Problem 1 - teachers that don't want to teach - problem solved
Problem 2 - students that don't want to learn (disruptive in class, always sick) - problem solved
Problem 3 - learning disability children failing - problem solved
Problem 4 - students wanting to get into the 'best Unis' for financial gain - problem solved [<- the love of learning has been eradicated by schools]
Problem 5 - workers taking frequent sick days resulting in unacceptable levels of tension - problem solved
Problem 6 - workers leaving early operating to an unacceptable standard - problem solved
Problem 7 - workers desperate to leave to climb ever higher for reduced effort required, increased wages - problem solved
Problem 8 - money (profit motive) determines all decision-making processes (generally the decision is to make people redundant) - problem solved
Problem 9 - worker/supervisor intimidation of co-workers - problem solved
Problem 10 - student desire to work in areas which they cannot support themselves through eg sport at whichever level - the level doesn't matter - problem solved

All problems solved by simply shifting to a model of working for personal satisfaction and not money - requiring money to be taken off the table.

-*-

Wisdom prevents problems from occurring in the first place and doesn't concern itself with only for profit cures which always make things worse.

Abi
12-17-15, 03:45 PM
Thread closed temporarily for staff review.